TUESDAY, APRIL 20, 2021 11:49 A.M.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE HOUSE WILL COME

TO ORDER.

IN THE ABSENCE OF CLERGY, LET US PAUSE FOR A MOMENT OF

SILENCE.

(WHEREUPON, A MOMENT OF SILENCE WAS OBSERVED.)

VISITORS ARE INVITED TO JOIN THE MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE

OF ALLEGIANCE.

(WHEREUPON, ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY LED VISITORS AND

MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.)

A QUORUM BEING PRESENT, THE CLERK WILL READ THE

JOURNAL OF MONDAY, APRIL 19TH.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, I MOVE TO

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

DISPENSE WITH THE FURTHER READING OF THE JOURNAL OF MONDAY, APRIL THE

19TH AND ASK THAT THE SAME STAND APPROVED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO

ORDERED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. AGAIN, WELCOME COLLEAGUES TO THE CHAMBERS AND PROVIDE AN

OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE THE SCHEDULE OF TODAY, AND REMIND COLLEAGUES THAT

THIS IS THE SECOND SESSION OF THE 16TH WEEK OF THE 244TH LEGISLATIVE

SESSION. AND IT'S ALSO FOR US IN THIS CHAMBER TODAY EARTH DAY, EVEN

THOUGH WE KNOW EARTH DAY'S THURSDAY. SOME OF US WON'T BE IN

ALBANY ON THURSDAY. SO I'D LIKE TO OFFER A QUOTE TODAY. MR. SPEAKER,

IT COMES FROM -- IT'S ACTUALLY A NATIVE AMERICAN PROVERB AND IT'S REAL

KIND OF BASIC AND SIMPLE. IT SAYS, WE DO NOT INHERIT THE EARTH FROM OUR

ANCESTORS, WE ACTUALLY BORROW IT FROM OUR CHILDREN. WITH THAT IN

MIND, MR. SPEAKER, OUR COLLEAGUES DO HAVE ON THEIR DESK THE MAIN

CALENDAR. AND AFTER THERE ARE ANY HOUSEKEEPING AND/OR INTRODUCTIONS

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE UP RESOLUTIONS ON PAGE 3. WE DO HAVE A FEW

COLLEAGUES THAT WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ON THEM. HOWEVER, OUR PRINCIPAL

WORK TODAY FROM OUR EARTH DAY PACKAGE WILL CONSIST OF A PRIVILEGED

RESOLUTION BY MS. MCMAHON WHICH SHE WILL SPEAK ON AT THE END OF

SESSION, AND THE FOLLOWING FOUR BILLS: RULES REPORT NO. 62 BY MR.

CUSICK, CALENDAR NO. 161 BY MR. O'DONNELL, CALENDAR NO. 181 BY MR.

ENGLEBRIGHT AND CALENDAR NO. 204 BY MR. ENGLEBRIGHT. WE MAY ALSO

TAKE UP ON DEBATE OTHER BILLS THAT ARE ON THE MAIN CALENDAR, INCLUDING,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

BUT NOT EXCLUSIVELY, 147 BY MR. O'DONNELL.

THAT'S THE GENERAL OUTLINE, MR. SPEAKER. IF THERE'S ANY

HOUSEKEEPING OR INTRODUCTIONS NOW WOULD BE A GOOD TIME.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY. WE DO

HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING.

ON A MOTION BY MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN, PAGE 20,

CALENDAR NO. 207, BILL A.6047, AMENDMENTS ARE RECEIVED AND

ADOPTED.

RESOLUTIONS ON PAGE 3, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 163, MS.

WALSH.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

ANDREW M. CUOMO TO PROCLAIM APRIL 11, 2021 AS SUBMARINE DAY IN

THE STATE OF NEW YORK IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE OBSERVANCE OF NATIONAL

SUBMARINE DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WALSH ON THE

RESOLUTION.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

TODAY I'M VERY HAPPY TO SPEAK ON THIS RESOLUTION THAT PROCLAIMS APRIL

11, 2021 AS SUBMARINE DAY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK IN CONJUNCTION

WITH THE OBSERVANCE OF NATIONAL SUBMARINE DAY. EACH YEAR NATIONAL

SUBMARINE DAY IS CELEBRATED ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE UNITED STATES

GOVERNMENT'S ACQUISITION OF ITS FIRST MODERN COMMISSIONED SUBMARINE,

THE USS HOLLAND, ON APRIL 11TH, 1900. THE U.S. NAVY WAS BORN IN

WHITEHALL, NEW YORK - JUST OUTSIDE MY DISTRICT, ACTUALLY IN

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ASSEMBLYMAN SIMPSON'S DISTRICT - IN THE SUMMER OF 1775 WITH THE

ESTABLISHMENT OF AN AMERICAN FLEET. THESE U.S. ATTACK SUBMARINES ARE

NAMED AFTER U.S. CITIES, SUCH AS THE USS ALBANY AND THE USS BUFFALO,

AMONG MANY OTHERS. I'M PROUD TO SHARE THAT THE 112TH ASSEMBLY

DISTRICT IS THE HOME OF THE NEW YORK STATE SUBMARINERS MEMORIAL AND

THE NAVY NUCLEAR POWER TRAINING UNIT, THE NPTU, BOTH OF WHICH ARE

LOCATED IN BALLSTON SPA AND IN WEST MILTON. I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO

TOUR THE NPTU WITH ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER A FEW YEARS AGO AND

HAVE ATTENDED SEVERAL GRADUATION CEREMONIES AT THE NPTU THROUGHOUT

MY TIME IN THE ASSEMBLY. I'D LIKE TO GIVE A COUPLE OF SPECIAL

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS TO SOME GREAT NAVY SUBMARINE VETERANS, MEN I'M

FORTUNATE TO KNOW INCLUDING OUR FORMER COLLEAGUE AND NOW-SENATOR

DAN STEC, WHO SPENT MUCH OF HIS TIME IN THE NAVY ABOARD A

SUBMARINE. AND JIM IRWIN, WHO ENLISTED IN THE U.S. NAVY IN OCTOBER,

1966, AND DURING FOUR YEARS OF ACTIVE DUTY COMPLETED SIX DEPLOYMENTS

TOTALING OVER ONE YEAR UNDER THE OCEAN WHICH EARNED HIM THE

SUBMARINE WARFARE MEDAL. JIM IRWIN WAS THE INSPIRATION BEHIND

INTRODUCING THIS RESOLUTION WHICH I PROUDLY SPONSOR WITH SENATOR

TEDISCO. MR. IRWIN IS A MEMBER OF SEVERAL SUBMARINE VETERANS

ORGANIZATIONS, BOTH LOCAL AND NATIONAL, AND IS AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF OUR

COMMUNITY AND THE 112TH ASSEMBLY DISTRICT. HE'S RECEIVED NUMEROUS

AWARDS IN RECOGNITION OF HIS COURAGEOUS EFFORT AND WILLING SACRIFICE,

INCLUDING THE 2010 ROBERT LINK AWARD FOR HIS WORK IN PRESERVING THE

WORLD WAR II SUBMARINE USS CROAKER AND THE 2012 SILVER ANCHOR

AWARD FOR LOCAL COMMUNITY SERVICE, AND LAST, THE NATIONAL 2015

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

DISTRICT COMMANDER OF THE YEAR AWARD.

THANK YOU TO ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO JOINED ME IN

SPONSORING THIS LEGISLATION AND TO ALL WHO WILL BE SUPPORTING IT TODAY.

THIS RESOLUTION EXPRESSES OUR GRATITUDE TO OUR STATE AND NATION'S

EXCEPTIONAL SUBMARINE FLEET AND TO OUR VETERANS PAST AND PRESENT FOR

THEIR BRAVERY AND THEIR SERVICE.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

ON THE RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING

AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 164, MS.

LUNSFORD.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

ANDREW M. CUOMO TO PROCLAIM APRIL 2021 AS CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION

MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE RESOLUTION, ALL

THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTION IS

ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 165, MRS.

BARRETT.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

ANDREW M. CUOMO TO PROCLAIM APRIL 2021 AS LYME DISEASE

AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. BARRETT ON THE

RESOLUTION.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MRS. BARRETT: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. ON THE

RESOLUTION. WHEN I FIRST TOOK OFFICE EXACTLY NINE YEARS AGO THIS WEEK

ACTUALLY, LYME AND TICKBORNE DISEASE AWARENESS MONTH WAS IN MAY

AND LYME DISEASE WAS WIDELY CONSIDERED TO A PROBLEM LARGELY LIMITED

TO THE HUDSON VALLEY, LYME, CONNECTICUT AND VERY FEW OTHER PLACES.

TODAY LYME DISEASE HAS BEEN REPORTED IN EVERY STATE IN THE UNITED

STATES. THERE ARE MORE THAN A DOZEN TICKBORNE ILLNESSES IN THE UNITED

STATES IN ADDITION TO LYME DISEASE, AND ONE TICK MAY CARRY MORE THAN

ONE DISEASE RESULTING IN PEOPLE RECEIVING A COINFECTION FROM A SINGLE

TICK BITE. CLIMATE CHANGE, WHICH WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TODAY ON EARTH

DAY, IS CAUSING NEW YORK TO EXPERIENCE LONGER AND MORE SEVERE TICK

SEASONS WITH THE MAJORITY OF TICK-TO-HUMAN BITES OCCURRING IN THE

WARMER MONTHS WHEN TICKS ARE MOST ACTIVE AND WHEN MORE PEOPLE ARE

ENJOYING THE OUTDOORS. SO WE ARE RECOGNIZING APRIL AS LYME AND

TICKBORNE DISEASE AWARENESS MONTH, THOUGH IT'S IMPORTANT TO

UNDERSTAND THAT TICKS CAN BE ACTIVE ANY TIME OF THE YEAR WHEN THE

TEMPERATURE IS ABOVE FREEZING. LYME DISEASE, ITS CO-INFECTIONS AND

OTHER TICKBORNE DISEASES ARE GENERALLY HARD TO DIAGNOSE BECAUSE THEIR

SYMPTOMS OFTEN MIMIC THOSE OF DOZENS OF OTHER COMMON ILLNESSES AND

THEY CAN PRESENT SYMPTOMS THAT ARE SOMETIMES MISDIAGNOSED AS

EVERYTHING FROM MENTAL ILLNESS, DEPRESSION, NUTRITIONAL DEFICIENCIES OR

ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE. THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL ARTICLES RECENTLY, IN

FACT, DOCUMENTING THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE SYMPTOMS OF LYME

DISEASE AS WELL AS THE LONG-TERM IMPACTS BETWEEN COVID AND LYME

DISEASE, AND THERE ARE AN ALARMING NUMBER OF SIMILARITIES. WITHIN

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

NEW YORK STATE WE NOW HAVE TWO CUTTING-EDGE CENTERS THAT ARE

WORKING ON LYME AND TICKBORNE DISEASE RESEARCH, DIAGNOSIS, EDUCATION

AND TREATMENT. ONE IS AT UPSTATE MEDICAL IN SYRACUSE AND THE OTHER IS

AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK CITY. WHILE THESE ARE BOTH GREAT

ADDITIONS TO THE GRASSROOTS WORK BEING DONE ACROSS THE STATE, IF YOU

TAKE A LOOK AT THE BUDGET WE JUST PASSED AND LOOK FOR LYME OR

TICKBORNE DISEASE, THERE IS BARELY A MENTION. IT IS NOT A PRIORITY OF OUR

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH OR OUR LEADERSHIP AND IT REALLY NEEDS TO BE.

LET ME LEAVE YOU WITH SOME FACTS HERE. LYME

DISEASE IS ON EVERY CONTINENT INCLUDING ANTARCTICA. FORTY PERCENT OF

LYME PATIENTS HAVE LONG-TERM HEALTH PROBLEMS WITH SYMPTOMS. FEWER

THAN 50 PERCENT OF PATIENTS WITH LYME DISEASE RECALL A TICK BITE.

FEWER THAN 50 PERCENT OF PATIENTS WITH LYME DISEASE GET A BULL'S EYE

RASH. CHRONIC LYME IS STILL NOT FULLY RECOGNIZED BY MANY INFECTIOUS

DISEASE DOCTORS. AND HERE IS A VISUAL IMAGE FOR YOU. TWO HUNDRED

CHILDREN GET LYME DISEASE EVERY SINGLE DAY. THAT'S FOUR SCHOOL BUSES

OF CHILDREN IN A SINGLE DAY. IT'S TIME FOR ALL OF US TO HASHTAG

#GETTICKEDOFF.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE RESOLUTION, ALL

THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTION IS

ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 166, MR.

MAGNARELLI.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ANDREW M. CUOMO TO PROCLAIM APRIL 18-24, 2001 AS ABUSIVE HEAD

TRAUMA/SHAKEN BABY SYNDROME AWARENESS WEEK IN THE STATE OF NEW

YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE RESOLUTION, ALL

THOSE IN SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTION IS

ADOPTED.

PAGE 4, RULES REPORT NO. 62, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A03876, RULES REPORT

NO. 62, CUSICK, SAYEGH, ZEBROWSKI, SIMON, COLTON, LAVINE, WOERNER,

GLICK, L. ROSENTHAL, STECK, DICKENS, EPSTEIN, COOK, CARROLL,

SEAWRIGHT, GRIFFIN, O'DONNELL, PAULIN, BARRON, THIELE, OTIS, CLARK. AN

ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC SERVICE LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING A

COMMERCIAL TARIFF ON CERTAIN ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. CUSICK.

MR. CUSICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS BILL IS

INTENDED TO FACILITATE THE DEVELOPMENT OF ADDITIONAL FAST-CHARGING

INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES. IT WOULD REQUIRE GAS AND ELECTRIC

CORPORATIONS TO FILE TARIFFS FOR PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION APPROVAL

THAT UTILIZE ALTERNATIVES TO TRADITIONAL DEMAND-BASED RATE STRUCTURES TO

FACILITATE SUCH INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT. IT WOULD ALSO REQUIRE AN

OPPORTUNITY FOR PUBLIC COMMENT AND NOTICE PRIOR TO PSC APPROVAL,

REJECTION OR MODIFICATION OF THE TARIFFS TO BE PROPOSED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. PALMESANO.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. PALMESANO: MR. SPEAKER, WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CUSICK, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. CUSICK: ABSOLUTELY.

MR. PALMESANO: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CUSICK YIELDS.

MR. PALMESANO: I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THE

INTENTION BEHIND THIS BILL BUT I DO HAVE SOME QUESTIONS. IT'S MY

UNDERSTANDING IN 2018 THERE WAS SOME COLLABORATION WITH THE POWER

AUTHORITY, DEC, THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION WHERE THEY

PETITIONED THE PSC TO LOOK TO PUT IN PLACE A MECHANISM TO HELP WITH

THESE FAST-CHARGING SYSTEMS, AND ONE OF THE -- THEY LOOKED AT REMOVING

THE DEMAND RATE FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, BUT THEY DECIDED NOT TO DO THAT

BECAUSE OF THE CONCERNS -- THEY SAID IT WOULD SHIFT COSTS TO OTHER

CUSTOMERS AND THAT IT WOULD SEND THE WRONG PRICING MESSAGE TO THE --

TO THE ELECTRIC CHARGING COMPANIES. AND THEY HAD SAID (INAUDIBLE) AN

INCENTIVE-BASED PROGRAM. WOULDN'T THIS BILL BASICALLY DISREGARD WHAT

WAS PART OF THAT PSC ORDER IN 2019 SAYING (INAUDIBLE) THE

SENATE-BASED MODEL INSTEAD OF GETTING RID OF THE DEMAND RATE

RESTRUCTURE?

MR. CUSICK: NO. IT -- IT WOULD NOT. IT -- THIS -- THIS

BILL WOULD -- IT -- IT PROVIDES THAT THE UTILITIES, THE CORPORATIONS HAVE

YOU PROVIDE A PLAN FOR ALTERNATIVES THAT THE PSC WOULD ULTIMATELY

ADOPT, MODIFY OR REJECT ALL TOGETHER. IT ACTUALLY GIVES FLEXIBILITY FOR

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

OTHER PLANS TO LOOK AT. THEY COULD BE REJECTED. THEY'RE ALSO, TO YOUR

POINT, MR. PALMESANO, THERE COULD BE A PLAN, MAYBE THEY COME UP WITH

A PLAN THAT THERE'S A NONTRADITIONAL DEMAND-BASED APPROACH THAT THEY

WOULD LIKE TO IMPLEMENT. THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT UNDER THIS

BILL.

MR. PALMESANO: HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATION

WITH THE STAKEHOLDERS BECAUSE OF THE CONCERNS THAT ARE RAISED ABOUT

SHIFTING THESE COSTS? I KNOW THERE'S -- I THINK ONE PARTICULAR

STAKEHOLDER SAID THIS WAS GOING TO COST RATEPAYERS OVER A FIVE-YEAR

PERIOD, ALL OF THE RATEPAYERS BECAUSE OF THE COST SHIFTS $475 MILLION.

HAVE YOU TALKED TO THE INDUSTRY -- DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THIS IS

GOING TO COST TO IMPLEMENT?

MR. CUSICK: WELL, I'LL -- I'LL BE HONEST, MR.

PALMESANO, NONE OF THE UTILITIES HAVE ISSUED A OPPOSITION MEMO TO THIS

BILL, SO THEY -- TO -- TO US, AT LEAST. SO, THAT WOULD NOT -- YOU KNOW, IF

YOU HAVE ONE I'D BE WELCOME TO SEE IT. BUT I HAVE NOT RECEIVED AN

OPPOSITION TO THIS. AND ACTUALLY I THINK IT WAS TWO DAYS BEFORE WE

WERE -- THIS WENT ON THE -- THE AGENDA WE GOT AN E-MAIL FROM -- FROM

ONE OF THE UTILITIES TO -- TO DISCUSS. BUT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN OUT THERE.

THIS BILL -- AGAIN, I WANT TO -- I WANT TO JUST POINT OUT, MR. PALMESANO,

AND I THINK YOU UNDERSTAND, THIS IS NOT MANDATING THAT THIS -- THAT WE'RE

DOING AWAY WITH THE DEMAND STRUCTURE RIGHT NOW. WHAT THIS IS DOING

IS JUST HAVING THE UTILITIES PRESENT THE PLAN IF THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES.

BECAUSE IN THE END, THE PFC COULD REJECT THOSE ALTERNATIVES THAT WERE

PUT IN PLACE.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. PALMESANO: I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I KNOW

THE LANGUAGE OF THE BILL BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT IT IN WAYS AND MEANS

A LITTLE BIT. THEY SAID WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO REJECT NECESSARY DEMAND

BUT IT SAYS THEY SHALL FILE AN APPLICATION WITH THE COMMISSION TO

ESTABLISH A -- A TARIFF UTILIZING ALTERNATIVES TO THE DEMAND-BASED RATE

STRUCTURE. AND I GUESS IN 2019 THAT DECISION WHEN THEY EVALUATED THAT

WITH THE PSC, WHEN ALL THE UTILITIES CAME TOGETHER AND AGREED TO IT WITH

THAT CASE IN 2019 FOR THIS PER-PLUG INCENTIVE TO HELP EXPAND THIS

CHARGING, WHICH I KNOW IS THE GOAL OF THE BILL, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND

WHY WE'RE GOING AWAY FROM THAT MODEL WHICH, AGAIN, THE PSC ITSELF

SAID THIS WILL SHIFT COST TO OTHER RATEPAYERS. AND -- AND THAT'S WHERE

WE'RE GETTING ESTIMATES FROM THE UTILITIES THAT IT COULD COST THAT MUCH

AND THAT'S WHY THERE'S SO MUCH SO OPPOSITION. BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY

INVESTOR UTILITY IT -- THE RATEPAYER'S GOING TO ULTIMATELY PAY FOR THE COST

OF THAT.

MR. CUSICK: WELL, AGAIN, I -- THIS BILL DOES NOT --

DOES NOT DO THAT. THIS BILL WILL PROVIDE THAT THEY HAVE TO PRESENT AN

ALTERNATIVE THAT ULTIMATELY COULD BE MODIFIED OR REJECTED BY THE PSC.

SO I JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT CLEAR. THE PASSING ON -- WE ALL ARE

CONCERNED ABOUT RATEPAYERS AND WE ALL REPRESENT RATEPAYERS. WE ARE

ALL RATEPAYERS. SO HAVING THE PROTECTION AND PROTECTING THE RATEPAYERS

IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR ALL OF US. THE ISSUE FOR US MOVING THIS

BILL IS THAT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE PROVIDING AND THEY'RE

PUSHING FORWARD WITH ELECTRIC CARS, RIGHT, MANY OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS,

MANY OF MINE, AND THERE ARE NO PLACES RIGHT NOW FOR THEM TO CHARGE.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AND WE HAVE TO, BY LAW, MEET THE CLCPA STANDARDS BY A CERTAIN TIME.

ONE-THIRD OF THE GREENHOUSE EMISSIONS RIGHT NOW COMES FROM THE

TRANSPORTATION SECTOR. SO THAT'S WHY WE ARE JUST SAYING LET'S PUT THIS

FORWARD, SEE IF THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES -- BECAUSE SOME FOLKS SAY IT IS

COST-PROHIBITIVE THE WAY IT IS NOW -- IN ORDER TO HAVE THESE CHARGING

STATIONS AVAILABLE FOR MY CONSTITUENTS AND YOUR CONSTITUENTS TO CHARGE

THEIR CARS.

MR. PALMESANO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER --

THANK YOU, MIKE --

MR. CUSICK: THANK YOU --

MR. PALMESANO: I HAVE SOME OTHER QUESTIONS FOR

YOU, I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T -- ONE OTHER QUESTION, I'M SORRY. BECAUSE --

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

THE OTHER CONCERN I HAVE, TOO, IS WE'VE BEEN TALKING

ABOUT THE RATEPAYERS, WE ALREADY KNOW ARE OVER $1.2 BILLION IN UTILITY

ARREARS RIGHT NOW, OVER $180 MILLION IN LIPA. YOU KNOW, THIS

PROPOSED COST INCREASE IS SOMETHING WE ALL ARE CONCERNED ABOUT. I

KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN. BUT ALSO ON THE DEMAND

RATE FOR COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL USERS IT'S PART -- BECAUSE THEY NEED

IT WHEN THEY NEED IT, THERE'S A HIGHER DEMAND, THERE'S MORE PEOPLE.

AND IF IT -- IF IT NEEDS IT INSTANTLY, DAY AND NIGHT FOR MANUFACTURING

OPERATIONS IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE WHICH REALLY REQUIRES THE UTILITIES TO

HAVE PROPER EQUIPMENT. YOU'RE TALKING TRANSFORMERS, YOU'RE TALKING

WIRES, SUBSTATIONS IN ORDER TO BUILD THAT INFRASTRUCTURE. AND THEY CAN

RECOUP THOSE COSTS THROUGH THE DEMAND RATE. AND AS THIS BILL IS TAKING

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THE DEMAND RATE NOW THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TRY FIGURE SOMETHING ELSE

OUT. WHO'S GOING TO -- THEY'RE -- THAT -- THAT'S GOING TO BE BORNE ONTO

THE -- TO THE RATEPAYER ULTIMATELY AND -- AND INSTEAD WE'RE INCENTIVIZING

BIGGER FOR-PROFIT CHARGING STATIONS LIKE TESLA OR EVGO. AREN'T -- ISN'T

THAT A CONCERN THAT YOU HAVE WITH THIS LEGISLATION?

MR. CUSICK: AGAIN -- AGAIN, IT'S ALWAYS A CONCERN

FOR MYSELF AND ALL OUR COLLEAGUES TO PROTECT THE -- THE RATEPAYER. BUT I

WILL -- I WILL REPEAT THAT THIS BILL DOES NOT DO THAT. IT DOES NOT RAISE THE

RATES. AGAIN -- AND IT DOES NOT DO AWAY WITH THE DEMAND STRUCTURE ALL

TOGETHER. GENERALLY, THE DEMAND STRUCTURE IN THE -- IN THE EXAMPLE YOU

GAVE WILL STAY INTACT. THE ISSUE IS THESE CHARGING STATIONS AND THE -- IT'S

COST PROHIBITIVE RIGHT NOW TO HAVE THEM AVAILABLE FOR THESE FOLKS WHO

WANT TO USE THEM FOR BUYING CARS AND WANT TO USE THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

AGAIN, WE ARE NOT -- WITH THIS BILL IT'S MERELY HAVING THE UTILITIES

PRESENT A PLAN THAT THE PSC COULD ULTIMATELY REJECT.

MR. PALMESANO: I UNDERSTAND THAT, MIKE, AND --

AND I THINK PART OF IT IS JUST THAT WE HAVE A PLAN IN PLACE RIGHT NOW SO --

THAT THE PSC APPROVED. SO, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME ON IT. I KNOW WE'RE

GOING TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON IT. HOPEFULLY THERE CAN BE MORE

DISCUSSION AND MOVE -- MOVE FORWARD.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. PALMESANO: I CERTAINLY WANT TO THANK THE

SPONSOR FOR HIS TIME AND INTENTION -- I UNDERSTAND HIS INTENTION, IT'S

CERTAINLY LAUDABLE. WE UNDERSTAND ABOUT TRYING TO HELP ON THE -- THE --

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

GET MORE ELECTRIC VEHICLES ON THE ROAD FOR THE CLIMATE ISSUES. BUT THIS

ISSUE HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BY THE PSC A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, AND WHERE

THEY BROUGHT IT UP AND THEY REVIEWED THE DEMAND-BASED RATE

RESTRUCTURE AND THEY -- THEY SAID, WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO AWAY FROM

THAT. IN FACT, WHAT THEY SAID IN THAT MEETING WAS, DEMAND CHARGES DO

NOT SEND THE APPROPRIATE PRICE SIGNALS TO CUSTOMERS TO (INAUDIBLE)

BEHAVIOR AND OPERATE IN A MANNER THAT BENEFITS THE DISTRIBUTION GRID.

AND ALLOWING DCFC FACILITIES TO TAKE SERVICE ON NON-DEMAND BILL

TARIFFS WOULD SHIFT COST AND SEND THE WRONG PRICE SIGNALS TO DFC

STATION OWNERS. THE PER-PLUG INCENTIVE PROGRAM WHICH WAS ADOPTED

BY THE PSC IN 2019 PROVIDES SIMILAR RELIEF WHILE MAINTAINING A RATE

THAT REFLECTS COST CAUSATION. WE KNOW ONE UTILITY HAS ALREADY SAID THAT

THIS WOULD COST $475 MILLION OVER FIVE YEARS TO THE RATEPAYERS. WE

KNOW RIGHT NOW WE HAVE $1.2 BILLION IN ARREARS BECAUSE OF COVID,

$180 MILLION TO LIPA ALONE. THIS KIND OF REMINDS ME OF -- THIS IS

GOING TO HIT OUR LOW AND MODERATE INCOME INDIVIDUALS MORE THAN

ANYONE. IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF THE SOLAR -- THE SOLAR PANELS. IT'S THE

HIGHER-INCOME PEOPLE THAT GET THE INCENTIVES AND GET THE DISCOUNTS.

BUT IT'S THE LOWER-INCOME WHO ARE PAYING IT ON THEIR UTILITY BILLS. WE

CAN DO MORE. WE CAN PROVIDE INCENTIVES WITHOUT SHIFTING THAT COST,

THAT PART OF THAT 2019 AGREEMENT IS WORKING TO INCREASE 1,000 PLUGS TO

HELP GET THAT TO ADDRESS THAT WITHOUT SHIFT -- GETTING RID OF DEMAND

STRUCTURES. AGAIN, IT'S SENDING THE WRONG MESSAGE AND THE (INAUDIBLE)

PRICES SIGNAL. WE KNOW THAT ON CONSUMPTION AND DEMAND CHOICES THAT

OUT THERE ON EVERY RESIDENTIAL UTILITY BILL. BUT WITH COMMERCIAL AND

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

INDUSTRIAL IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFERENT. IT'S -- THERE'S A LOT OF VARIETY AND

YOU HAVE TO MEET THE NEED THAT'S OUT THERE, WHICH REQUIRES A GREAT DEAL

OF INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO MEET THAT NEED THAT -- WHETHER IT'S THE

MANUFACTURING, WHETHER NOW WITH THE TRAN -- WITH THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE

CHARGING. THEY NEED TRANSFORMERS, WIRE, SUBSTATIONS. THEY GET THAT

REIMBURSEMENT THROUGH THE DEMAND RATE STRUCTURE. AND I THINK WHAT

WE'RE GOING TO SEE NOW IS THIS IS JUST GOING TO SHIFT THIS COST INEVITABLY

TO OTHER RATEPAYERS. THE D -- THE -- THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

HAS SAID THAT. I'M JUST CONCERNED THAT'S WHERE THIS IS HEADING. AND IN

TAKING AWAY THE DEMAND RATE IS GOING TO JUST SHIFT THIS COST AND IS THAT

-- AND SUBSIDIZE, LIKE, TESLA AND EVGO. IS THAT REALLY THE RIGHT PRIORITY

AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR RATEPAYERS? BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT'S WHERE THIS IS

GOING AND WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. AGAIN, WE -- WE ALREADY COLLECT OVER

$1 BILLION A YEAR IN TAXES, FEES AND ASSESSMENTS ON THE RATEPAYERS IN

THIS STATE FOR CLEAN ENERGY PROGRAMS. WHY ARE WE GOING TO NEED

MORE? WHY AREN'T WE USING SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY THERE? AGAIN,

ONE -- ONE PROVIDER SAID $475 MILLION IN ADDITIONAL COST SHIFTS TO

CUSTOMERS. AGAIN, WITH $1.25 BILLION IN ARREARS OUT THERE THAT NEED TO

BE MADE UP. THIS IS JUST GOING TO BURDEN AND HURT OUR RATEPAYERS EVEN

FURTHER. WE ALREADY HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST UTILITY RATES AND ELECTRIC

RATES IN THE COUNTRY. AND I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, THEY'D BE MUCH

HIGHER IF WE DIDN'T HAVE AND UTILIZE THE NATURAL GASES THAT WE ARE

UTILIZING NOW. THAT'S HELPED KEEP THE UTILITY RATES A LITTLE BIT BETTER

THAN WHAT THEY WOULD BE. AND QUITE FRANKLY - I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT

THE CLCPA WHICH WAS ADOPTED IN I BELIEVE 2019 - IN 2023 THE FACT OF

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THE MATTER IS IT'S GOING TO HIT OUR PEOPLE IN THE STATE VERY, VERY HARD.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S COMING. WHEN WE PASSED THAT -- TALK ABOUT

THE GREEN NEW DEAL FOR NEW YORK, THE ONLY THING GREEN ABOUT IT IS

WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST IN ADDITIONAL TAXES, HIGHER UTILITY BILLS, LOSS OF

MANUFACTURING JOBS GOING -- AND INCOME GOING TO OTHER STATES, OUR

FARMING INDUSTRY BECAUSE THAT ONLY AFFECTS NEW YORK. IT DIDN'T AFFECT

CHINA, BRAZIL OR RUSSIA. IT DIDN'T AFFECT OHIO OR PENNSYLVANIA. SO OUR

-- OUR PEOPLE IN THE STATE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S ABOUT TO HIT THEM COME

2023 WHEN THEY START IMPLEMENTING THESE REQUIREMENTS. THERE ARE

COSTS -- WHEN THERE'S COST ESTIMATES ALREADY THAT'S GOING TO COST BILLIONS

AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS YEARLY TO COMPLY WITH THE CLCPA. ONE STUDY

FROM MASSACHUSETTS SAID $6- TO $8 BILLION IN ANNUALIZED COSTS TO

COMPLY. THINK ABOUT THE HOMES AND THE CONVERSION COSTS THAT WE'RE

GOING TO BE LOOKING AT FOR BUSINESSES, FOR MANUFACTURERS, FOR HOUSING

RESIDENTIAL. TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IS -- IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT

TO SHIFT COSTS TO RATEPAYERS. SO THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING. I KNOW

YOU'RE SAYING THAT THIS DOESN'T SHIFT COSTS, IT SHIFTS COSTS. BUT MORE IS

COMING TO THE RATEPAYER WHEN THEY CAN'T (INAUDIBLE) HAVE ANYMORE.

THAT'S WHY WE TRULY NEED A FULL COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS OF THE CLCPA TO

SHOW TRUE COST, WHERE IT'S REALLY GOING TO COST THEM IN REAL DOLLARS. WE

OWE THE RATEPAYERS AND THE PEOPLE OF THIS STATE AT LEAST THAT. THE FACT

OF THE MATTER, AS I SAID, THE CLCPA WHEN WE PASSED IT JUST AFFECTED

NEW YORK. AGAIN, NOT CHINA, RUSSIA OR BRAZIL. NOT OHIO OR

PENNSYLVANIA. AND WHY? WHAT DID WE ACCOMPLISH? NEW YORK

CONTRIBUTES .5 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL CARBON EMISSIONS IN THE WORLD. JUST

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

.5 PERCENT. AND 3.3 PERCENT IN THE UNITED STATES. WHEN I TALK ABOUT

THE ENERGY POLICY I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT A THREE-LEGGED STOOL. SURE, CLEAN.

YES, WE NEED RENEWABLES, WIND, SOLAR. BUT IT ALSO HAS TO BE AFFORDABLE

AND RELIABLE. IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY TIME WE BRING UP BILLS IN THIS

CHAMBER, IT ALWAYS FOCUSES ON THE CLEAN AND RENEWABLE, BUT IT NEVER

TALKS ABOUT AFFORDABILITY OR RELIABILITY. BECAUSE WE KNOW WITH WIND

AND SOLAR IF THE WIND'S NOT SHINING AND THE SUN'S NOT -- OR IF THE WIND'S

NOT BLOWING AND THE SUN'S NOT SHINING, IT'S NEEDS BACKUP BY

CONVENTIONAL MEANS. WE NEED BALANCE. WE NEED DIVERSITY IN OUR FUEL

SUPPLY. SO, YES, WE NEED WIND, SOLAR, HYDRO, NUCLEAR. BUT WE ALSO

NEED NATURAL GAS. YOU NEED FUEL DIVERSITY. JUST LIKE YOUR 401(K). YOU

DON'T PUT IT ALL IN STOCKS, BONDS OR CASH. YOU DIVERSIFY TO PROTECT IT, TO

MAKE IT MORE RESILIENT AND TO MAKE IT MORE RELIABLE. WE SHOULD BE

DOING THE SAME THING WITH OUR ENERGY POLICY. YES, KEEP THE CLEAN AND

RENEWABLE. THAT'S PART OF IT. BUT MY GOODNESS, NATURAL GAS IS A BIG

PART OF IT AS WELL. WITH STOPPING PIPELINE PROJECTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS OUR CARBON EMISSIONS HAVE DECREASED OVER THE

PAST 20 YEARS BECAUSE OF NATURAL GAS. WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR

NOT WE SHOULD BE UTILIZING WHAT WE HAVE AND DOING THAT. I KNOW

OFTENTIMES WHEN WE TALK ABOUT UTILITIES IN THIS CHAMBER MANY OF MY

FRIENDS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE OFTEN TALK ABOUT, WELL, IT'S

INVESTORS, IT'S THE INVESTORS. AND WHEN I TALK ABOUT UTILITIES I TALK

ABOUT THE RATEPAYERS. IT'S THE -- THE SENIOR CITIZEN, INDIVIDUAL -- A

LOW-INCOME OR MODERATE-INCOME INDIVIDUAL WHO IS PAYING THESE UTILITY

BILLS, WHO ARE GETTING OVERWHELMED. WE KNOW THEY'RE OVERWHELMED

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

NOW. AGAIN, $1.2 BILLION IN ARREARS, $180 MILLION ON LIPA ALONE.

THEY NEED HELP. WE SHOULD BE PROVIDING HELP. WE SHOULD BE

DIRECTING SOME OF THESE CLEAN ENERGY FUNDS INSTEAD OF BUILDING MORE

PROJECTS AND PROVIDING THAT DIRECT RELIEF RIGHT NOW. BUT WHEN I THINK OF

TIMES WITH -- WITH UTILITIES, WE'RE SHIFTING COSTS, I THINK ABOUT THE

RATEPAYER, I THINK ABOUT THE CUSTOMER OUT THERE. THAT'S WHAT I'M

CONCERNED ABOUT, THAT'S -- I THINK THE INTENTION IS BEHIND THE SPONSOR. I

HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR HIM, HIS KNOWLEDGE ON THIS ISSUE. I'M JUST

CONCERNED WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THIS LEGISLATION AS WE MOVE

FORWARD.

SO, MR. SPEAKER, FOR THAT REASON, BECAUSE I'M

CONCERNED ABOUT THE RATEPAYER AND WHERE WE'RE HEADING WITH POLICIES

IN THIS STATE AND HOW IT IMPACTS THEM WITH BILL AFTER BILL. I'M

CONCERNED ABOUT THE RATEPAYER AND WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO TO INDIVIDUAL,

WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO OUR BUSINESSES, OUR MANUFACTURERS, EVERYONE. SO

FOR THOSE REASONS, MR. SPEAKER, I'LL BE -- I'LL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE

AND I ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME. AND THANK YOU, MR.

CUSICK, FOR YOUR TIME.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CUSICK, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. CUSICK: ABSOLUTELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CUSICK YIELDS,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. CUSICK. I VERY

MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR EARLIER COMMENTS THAT YOU DID NOT ENVISION THIS

BILL AS BEING A TRANSFER COST TO OTHER RATEPAYERS, AWAY FROM THOSE WHO

OPERATE THE CHARGING SYSTEMS TO OTHER RATEPAYERS. BUT I ALSO WAS

CURIOUS BECAUSE YOU SAID RIGHT NOW THE CURRENT COST STRUCTURE IS COST-

PROHIBITIVE FOR SOME OF THESE CHARGING STATIONS. SO PRESUMABLY, THE

PURPOSE OF THIS BILL IS TO MAKE IT LESS EXPENSIVE TO OPERATE THESE

CHARGING SYSTEMS. SO MY QUESTION IS, IF THIS BILL IS EFFECTIVE IN

REDUCING THE COST TO THOSE WHO OPERATE CHARGING SYSTEMS - AND MR.

PALMESANO INDICATED THAT THAT COULD BE MUCH AS $425 MILLION A YEAR -

BUT IF IT'S EFFECTIVE IN REDUCING THE COST TO THE OPERATORS OF THE CHARGING

SYSTEM, WHO IS PICKING UP THE LOST REVENUE?

MR. CUSICK: WELL, I -- I FIRST WOULD START WITH, THAT

NUMBER I'VE NEVER HEARD BEFORE THAT -- THAT MR. PALMESANO HAD -- HAD

QUOTED. AGAIN, THAT WAS NOT PRESENTED TO ME BY ANY OF THE UTILITIES.

THE CONCERN RIGHT NOW IN -- IN MANY AREAS OF NEW YORK STATE IS THE

AVAILABILITY OF THESE CHARGING STATIONS. AND IT'S BEEN TOLD TO US THAT IT

IS -- UNDER THE CURRENT STRUCTURE, THE -- THE DEMAND BASED STRUCTURE

RIGHT NOW FOR THESE CHARGING STATIONS, IT IS PROHIBITIVE TO PUT AS MANY

THAT IS NEEDED IN AREAS LIKE, LET'S SAY, IN MY HOMETOWN OF STATEN ISLAND,

TO PUT THEM IN AREAS THAT WOULD BE NEEDED FOR FOLKS TO USE ON A

SEMI-REGULAR BASIS. AND THAT IS THE -- WHERE I BROUGHT UP THE

PROHIBITIVE PART WAS IT'S PROHIBITIVE IN ORDER TO SUPPLY THOSE CHARGING

STATIONS FOR THE CUSTOMERS.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. GOODELL: SO IF THIS BILL WERE ENACTED, HOW

MUCH WOULD YOU ENVISION THE COST REDUCTION OR THE SAVINGS TO BE ON A

CUMULATIVE LEVEL FOR THOSE CHARGING STATIONS?

MR. CUSICK: WELL, THE UTILITIES WOULDN'T BE

CHARGING AS MUCH, YOU KNOW, WITH THIS GOING FORWARD AND THAT WOULD

BE -- BE, WE BELIEVE, THE -- THE RESULT OF THIS GOING FORWARD.

MR. GOODELL: AND HOW MUCH DO YOU ESTIMATE

THAT THE UTILITIES WOULD NO LONGER CHARGE FOR? IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT

WOULD YOUR ESTIMATE BE FOR LOST UTILITY REVENUE?

MR. CUSICK: RIGHT. AGAIN -- AGAIN, I'M -- I'M

WILLING TO SIT DOWN WITH THE UTILITIES AND TALK NUMBERS, BUT WE HAVE NOT

BEEN GIVEN NUMBERS ON THIS AND THIS BILL HAS BEEN OUT -- OUT THERE.

MR. GOODELL: BUT PRESUMABLY, YOU'RE HOPING FOR

A SUBSTANTIAL REDUCTION IN THE COST, CORRECT?

MR. CUSICK: I'M -- I'M LOOKING FOR A -- FOR IT TO BE

RELIABLE AND AFFORDABLE FOR MY CONSTITUENTS AND YOUR CONSTITUENTS WHO

WOULD LIKE TO USE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

MR. GOODELL: AND TO ACCOMPLISH THAT YOU ARE

HOPING FOR A SUBSTANTIAL REDUCTION IN THE COST, CORRECT?

MR. CUSICK: THAT WOULD BE NICE, YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND OF COURSE A SUBSTANTIAL

REDUCTION IN THE COST MEANS THAT THERE'S A SUBSTANTIAL REDUCTION IN

REVENUE. HOW IS THE UTILITY TO MAKE UP FOR THAT SUBSTANTIAL LOSS IN

REVENUE?

MR. CUSICK: WELL, THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

WE WOULD WORK WITH THE UTILITIES WHEN THEY PRESENT AN ALTERNATIVE

PLAN, RIGHT?

MR. GOODELL: I SEE.

MR. CUSICK: THE ALTERNATIVE -- THIS BILL WOULD

MANDATE OR TELL THE UTILITIES AND THE CORPORATIONS TO PRESENT A PLAN. IN

THIS CASE WE WOULD WORK WITH THE UTILITIES IF THEY WANTED TO PUT THAT IN

THE ALTERNATIVE PLAN TO ADDRESS THAT ISSUE. THAT'S WHAT THIS BILL WOULD

DO.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, AS YOU KNOW, SINCE 2019 THE

PSC HAS IMPLEMENTED AN INCENTIVE PROGRAM TO BRING THOSE COSTS DOWN

USING A DIRECT FINANCIAL PAYMENT TO THE UTILITY TO PREVENT ANY COST SHIFT.

IS THERE A REASON WHY THE INCENTIVE APPROACH SHOULD BE CHANGED OR

ABANDONED?

MR. CUSICK: NO. WE -- WE ARE ALL FOR AN INCENTIVE

PROGRAM. AND, YOU KNOW, IN THIS BILL THE -- THE -- ANY PLAN OR

MODIFICATION THAT A COMPANY PRESENTS COULD INCLUDE AN INCENTIVE

PROGRAM. IT COULD BE PART OF WHATEVER NEW PLAN THEY WANT TO PRESENT

TO THE PSC.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, THIS PROPOSAL DOESN'T INCLUDE

ANY BUDGETARY APPROPRIATION OR ANY FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO IMPLEMENT

THIS REDUCTION IN CHARGES, CORRECT?

MR. CUSICK: THAT -- THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: IS THERE A REASON WHY WE DON'T

INCREASE THE FINANCIAL INCENTIVES INSTEAD OF THIS APPROACH?

MR. CUSICK: AGAIN, THAT -- THAT IS SOMETHING THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

WE -- WE WOULD -- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INCENTIVE PROGRAMS FOR THE --

FOR THE UTILITIES?

MR. GOODELL: YES, FOR --

MR. CUSICK: YES.

MR. GOODELL: SPECIFICALLY FOR THE TYPE --

MR. CUSICK: I MEAN, WE -- WE --

MR. GOODELL: -- OF INSTALLATION.

MR. CUSICK: RIGHT. WE -- WE ARE -- WE ARE IN

FAVOR OF HELPING WITH INCENTIVE PROGRAMS. AND LIKE I SAID, YOU KNOW,

IT COULD BE PART OF ONE OF THE PLANS THAT ARE PRESENTED TO THE PSC BASED

ON THIS BILL IF THIS BILL PASSES.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. CUSICK.

MR. CUSICK: THANK YOU. THANK YOU, MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: ON THE BILL, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. GOODELL: A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT

COMMERCIAL CUSTOMERS, THEIR ELECTRIC BILL CONTAINS MULTIPLE

COMPONENTS. ONE OF THE COMPONENTS IS BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF

ENERGY THEY ACTUALLY CONSUME. AND ANOTHER COMPONENT IS THE

MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF ENERGY THAT THEY MIGHT DEMAND. THE DEMAND

CHARGE REFLECTS THE FACT THAT FOR A UTILITY COMPANY TO DELIVER A LARGE

AMOUNT OF ELECTRICITY AT ANY GIVEN TIME, THE UTILITY COMPANY HAS TO

INVEST IN THE CAPACITY OF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM TO MEET THAT DEMAND. AND

THAT MEANS HIGH-INTENSITY OR HIGH-CAPACITY ELECTRIC LINES, TRANSFORMERS

AND ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT GOES WITH IT. MANY YEARS AGO I -- I

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

WORKED FOR A HARNESS TRACK UPSTATE, AND THEY HAD A ONE-MILE LONG TRACK

AND THEY RAN HORSE RACES AT NIGHT. AND WHEN THEY RAN A RACE FOR TWO

MINUTES THEY HAD QUARTZ LIGHTS ON THAT MILE-LONG TRACK SO BRIGHT THAT

THEY COULD TELEVISE THE HORSE RACE WITH A CAMERA THAT WAS A HALF-A-MILE

AWAY. AND YOU CAN IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF THE ELECTRICITY THAT WAS

USED FOR TWO MINUTES. AND AS SOON AS THAT RACE WAS OVER, BOOM, THOSE

LIGHTS WENT OUT. BUT IN ORDER TO SUPPLY THAT INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF

ELECTRICITY, EVEN IF IT WAS FOR ONLY TWO MINUTES, THE UTILITY HAD TO HAVE

A MASSIVE INVESTMENT IN TRANSMISSION LINES, IN TRANSFORMERS AND THE

MAINTENANCE THAT GOES WITH IT. AND AS A RESULT, OFTENTIMES THE DEMAND

CHARGE FOR THAT CAPACITY ACTUALLY MAY HAVE EXCEEDED THE ACTUAL

UTILIZATION OF THE ELECTRICITY IN ANY GIVEN DAY. THE SAME IS HAPPENING

WITH ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS. IF YOU HAVE ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS

AND THE CARS ARE USING A FAST CHARGE, THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY THEY USE IS

VERY INTENSE WHILE THEY'RE CHARGING. AND AT 4 IN THE MORNING IF

NOBODY'S CHARGING THEIR CAR THE ENERGY USE IS ZERO. BUT IN ORDER TO

SUPPLY THAT CHARGE WHEN ALL THE CARS ARE PLUGGED IN WITH A FAST CHARGE,

THE UTILITY COMPANY HAS TO MAINTAIN ALL OF THAT CAPITAL INVESTMENT. AND

THAT'S WHERE THE DEMAND CHARGE COMES. NOW, TO ADDRESS THIS THE PSC

A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO TOOK WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE THE RIGHT APPROACH.

THEY SAID, WE'LL HELP COVER THE CAPITAL COST THROUGH A FINANCIAL

INCENTIVE PROGRAM. AND THAT PROTECTS ALL OF THE REST OF THE RATEPAYERS

FROM HAVING TO PAY HIGHER RATES. I APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S DESIRE TO

DRAMATICALLY REDUCE THE COST OF THESE CHARGING STATIONS, BUT THE

DRAMATIC REDUCTION IN THE COST OF THE CHARGING STATION IS MADE UP

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE SYSTEM. AND IF IT'S NOT MADE UP WITH A FINANCIAL

INCENTIVE, IT'S MADE UP ON THE BACKS OF THE RATEPAYERS. SO WHO ARE WE

TALKING ABOUT? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ALL THE REST OF THE COMMERCIAL

CUSTOMERS WHO ALREADY PAY SOME OF THE HIGHEST RATES IN THE NATION.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OUR SENIOR CITIZENS, OUR RETIREES, THOSE ON FIXED

INCOMES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE POOR, WHO RELY ON ELECTRICITY. I

THINK THE PSC, WHO ARE OUR EXPERTS IN THIS AREA, WERE CORRECT WHEN

THEY CAME UP WITH A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE PROGRAM RATHER THAN A COST

SHIFT. AND I FULLY APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S DESIRE TO AVOID A COST SHIFT,

WHICH HE AND I ARE 100 PERCENT IN AGREEMENT ON THAT. BUT THE NUMBERS

DON'T WORK UNLESS YOU PROVIDE ANOTHER MEANS OF COVERING THAT

REDUCTION IN COST OTHER THAN THE TAXPAYERS. AND THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN

DO THAT IS THROUGH A SUBSIDY PROGRAM FUNDED BY US, THE STATE OF NEW

YORK, WHICH REFLECTS OUR PUBLIC POLICY. AND SO, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE

WITH MY COLLEAGUE'S DESIRE TO REDUCE THE COST OF THESE CHARGING

STATIONS. I'M WITH HIM 100 PERCENT. I FULLY AGREE WITH MY COLLEAGUE'S

COMMENTS THAT WE SHOULDN'T INCREASE THE RATES ON OUR TAXES AND OUR

RATEPAYERS, WHO ARE ALREADY PAYING SOME OF THE HIGHEST ELECTRIC RATES

IN THE NATION. I'M WITH YOU. BUT UNFORTUNATELY, YOU CAN'T DRAMATICALLY

CUT COSTS IN ONE AREA WITHOUT PROVIDING AN ALTERNATIVE MEANS OF

REVENUE WITHOUT FORCING THE OTHER AREAS OF THE SYSTEM TO PAY HIGHER

RATES, AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S WHAT THIS DOES. THERE'S JUST NO WAY

AROUND IT WITH THE NUMBERS.

AND SO FOR THAT REASON I -- WHILE I APPRECIATE THE GOALS

AND OBJECTIVES, I THINK A BETTER APPROACH IS THROUGH THE BUDGET PROCESS

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

FOR US TO INCREASE THE FINANCIAL INCENTIVES TO OFFSET THESE CAPITAL COSTS

SO THAT WE CAN ACHIEVE RATE STABILIZATION FOR ALL OF OUR RATEPAYERS WHILE

ENCOURAGING THE DEVELOPMENT OF THESE CHARGING STATIONS. FOR THAT

REASON, WHILE I APPRECIATE THE OBJECTIVE, I'M COMPELLED TO VOTE AGAINST

THIS APPROACH. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 3876. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY MEMBER

WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THEIR CONFERENCE

POSITION IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADERS AT THE

NUMBERS PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS PARTICULAR APPROACH. BUT

THOSE WHO FAVOR THIS LEGISLATION SHOULD CALL THE MINORITY OFFICE --

MINORITY LEADER'S OFFICE SO THAT WE CAN PROPERLY RECORD THEIR VOTE.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. MY MAJORITY COLLEAGUES WILL BE RECORDED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE

ON THIS ONE. THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO BE AN EXCEPTION SHOULD PLEASE

CONTACT THE MAJORITY LEADER'S OFFICE AND WE'LL BE HAPPY TO RECORD YOUR

VOTE PROPERLY.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR [SIC],

VERY MUCH.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

FIRST VOTE OF THE DAY.

MR. CAHILL TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. CAHILL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND THANK

YOU TO THE SPONSOR FOR CARRYING THIS IMPORTANT LEGISLATION. I'M GOING TO

URGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DISREGARD THEIR -- THEIR CONVENTIONAL KNOWLEDGE

OF OUR ENERGY SYSTEMS AND TO ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE HAS BEEN A

FAILURE ON OUR PART IN MANY INSTANCES TO ACCOUNT FOR THE OTHER COSTS

ASSOCIATED WITH THE USE OF FOSSIL FUELS, SUCH AS THE POLLUTION THAT HAS

BEEN THE LEADING CAUSE OF ASTHMA IN PORTIONS OF OUR STATE AMONGST

CHILDREN THAT HAS RESULTED IN THE DEFORESTATION OF WHOLE PARTS OF OUR

GREAT ADIRONDACK STATE PARK AND CATSKILL STATE PARK. WE HAVE TO

TRANSITION TO A NON-FOSSIL FUEL ECONOMY, AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT

STEP. BUT THERE'S ANOTHER FUNDAMENTAL POINT BEHIND THIS. YOU KNOW,

THE -- THE USE OF ELECTRICITY TO CHARGE VEHICLES OFTEN OCCURS AT THE TIME

THAT ELECTRICITY WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE GONE TO WASTE. ELECTRICITY GETS

GENERATED 24 HOURS A DAY BY NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, BY WATERFALLS THAT

DON'T STOP AT NIGHT. BY WINDMILLS THAT -- THAT TEND TO -- THAT TEND TO

CONTINUE TO TURN EVEN AFTER THE SUN GOES DOWN. BUT THE COST OF THAT

POWER WHEN IT'S BASED UPON THE PEAK CHARGES IS ACTUALLY SUBSIDIZING

EVERYONE ELSE. SO IF WE ARE IN A -- IN A POSITION WHERE WE CAN REDUCE

OUR RELIANCE ON FOSSIL FUEL, MORE APPROPRIATELY CHARGE THE USES OF THAT

ELECTRICITY FOR THE ELECTRICITY THAT THEY'RE USING AND HAVE IT BE BASED ON

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THE ACTUAL COST OF THAT PRODUCTION, THAT IS AN APPROPRIATE THING TO DO.

MY ONE REGRET, MR. SPEAKER, WHEN REVIEWING THIS BILL IS I NOTICED I

HAVE WASN'T A COSPONSOR AND I'M GOING TO TRY TO CORRECT THAT BEFORE THIS

BILL GETS PUT INTO THE HOPPER.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST

AND VERY PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE AND URGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO

THE SAME.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CAHILL IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. EPSTEIN.

MR. EPSTEIN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I RISE TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE. IN THE CONVERSATION WE'RE HAVING AROUND EARTH DAY

AND THE CONVERSATIONS WE'RE HAVING ABOUT CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE, WE

HAVE TO MAKE CLEAR THAT NEW YORK HAS TO MOVE FORWARD ON THIS.

WHERE I LIVE, ON THE EAST SIDE OF MANHATTAN, AND EVEN IN THE ENTIRE

CITY OF NEW YORK THERE ARE ZERO PUBLICLY AVAILABLE CHARGING STATIONS.

NOT ONE. NOT A ONE. WE NEED THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO MAKE PEOPLE OR

HELP PEOPLE, TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO MOVE TO A GREENER ECONOMY. WE

NEED EVERY TOOL AVAILABLE IN OUR TOOL BELT. WHAT THIS BILL DOES IS ALLOWS

THAT CONVERSATION TO MOVE FORWARD. IT ALLOWS GREATER OPPORTUNITIES TO

ENSURE WE HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE. WE TALK ABOUT SHORT-TERM

COST TO RATEPAYERS, BUT WE IGNORE THE LONG-TERM COST TO RATEPAYERS. WE

IGNORE THE LONG-TERM COST TO US WITH OUR HEALTH CONSEQUENCES. WE

IGNORE THE LONG-TERM COST TO THE ENVIRONMENT. WE IGNORE THE

LONG-TERM COST TO OUR FUTURE, FOR OUR CHILDREN AND OUR GRANDCHILDREN.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

WE MUST ACT, AND WE MUST ACT NOW.

I APPLAUD THE SPONSOR. I'M PROUD TO SUPPORT THIS BILL,

AND ON EARTH DAY I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO VOTE IN FAVOR. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. EPSTEIN IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. WOERNER.

MS. WOERNER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

ALLOWING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. YOU KNOW, WITH

EVERY -- WITH EVERY CHALLENGE THERE IS ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY. AND OVER

THE COURSE OF THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS I'VE HEARD FROM MANY OF THE

CONVENIENCE STORES AND GAS STATIONS THROUGHOUT THE REGION THAT I

REPRESENT THAT WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO INCLUDE CHARGING STATIONS AS

PART OF THEIR OFFERING. THAT JUST AS YOU STOP AT -- AT THE LOCAL STEWART'S

TO FUEL UP YOUR CAR AND GET A CUP OF COFFEE WITH GAS YOU COULD BE ABLE

TO FUEL UP YOUR CAR UP ELECTRICALLY AS -- AND CHECK YOUR E-MAIL AND GET

A CUP OF COFFEE. OR AN ICE CREAM CONE. BUT THEY CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE OF

THESE DEMAND CHARGES. IT JUST MAKES IT ECONOMICALLY UNVIABLE FOR THE

SMALL BUSINESSES THAT WE DEPEND ON TO FUEL OUR CARS TO OFFER THE OPTION

FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES. AND IF WE ARE EVER TO MOVE FROM A -- FROM EARLY

ADOPTERS TO MAINSTREAM ADOPTERS WE HAVE TO HAVE SUFFICIENT CHARGING

STATIONS THROUGHOUT OUR -- OUR STATE. THIS WILL GO A LONG WAY TO

REMOVE ONE OF THE IMPEDIMENTS TO CREATING OPPORTUNITY FOR OUR SMALL

BUSINESSES TO GET INTO THE BUSINESS OF PROVIDING EV CHARGING STATIONS

FOR THEIR CUSTOMERS.

AND SO WITH THAT, I AM HAPPY TO VOTE IN THE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WOERNER IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. PLEASE RECORD

ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN AND ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK IN THE AFFIRMATIVE

ON THIS LEGISLATION. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED.

MR. BURDICK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. BURDICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR THE

OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I WISH TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR FOR

MOVING THIS BILL FORWARD. IF WE TRULY ARE GOING TO TAKE THE

REQUIREMENTS UNDER THE CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY

PROTECTION ACT SERIOUSLY, THEN WE HAVE TO TAKE BOLD ACTION LIKE THIS.

THERE'S NO WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO MEET THOSE AMBITIOUS REQUIREMENTS

UNLESS WE'RE WILLING TO MAKE THESE KIND OF COMMITMENTS. AS MY

COLLEAGUE JUST MENTIONED, WE NEED TO MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO BE

ABLE TO CHARGE THEIR VEHICLES EITHER AT SERVICE STATIONS OR OTHER AREAS.

WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MOVE THIS FORWARD. WE NEED TO

DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO WEAN OUR STATE AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS.

SO I AM PROUD TO CAST MY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE ON

THIS, AND I WISH TO AGAIN THANK THE SPONSOR FOR HIS TENACIOUS EFFORTS IN

MOVING THIS FORWARD AND I THANK THE SPEAKER FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK IN THE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. OTIS TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. OTIS: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS IS AN AREA

WHERE NEW YORK STATE CAN DO A LOT MORE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT GLOBAL

WARMING, TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT AIR POLLUTION. THIS IS A VERY

IMPORTANT BILL IN -- IN THAT EFFORT. WE ARE BEHIND IN TERMS OF JUST THE

VISIBILITY, AVAILABILITY OF CHARGING STATIONS, WHETHER THEY BE ON THE ROAD

WHEN PEOPLE ARE TRAVELING OR IN NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND SO I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. I -- I THANK

CHAIRMAN CUSICK FOR HIS LEADERSHIP ON THIS ISSUE. THERE'S A LOT MORE

FOR US TO DO TO PROVIDE INCENTIVES FOR THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO GET IN THIS

GAME, TO PROVIDE ADVANTAGES FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO BE DOING MORE.

THERE'S JUST A LOT MORE WE CAN BE DOING. THIS BILL IS AN IMPORTANT START.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I VOTE AYE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. OTIS IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. SANTABARBARA.

MR. SANTABARBARA: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

IN EXPLAINING MY VOTE I WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR ADVANCING THIS

LEGISLATION. THIS WILL CERTAINLY HELP OUR COMMUNITIES AND ADVANCE OUR

SHARED MISSION OF CREATING A MORE SUSTAINABLE FUTURE. AND I CAN'T THINK

OF A -- A BETTER WAY TO CELEBRATE EARTH DAY THIS MONTH. THE DANGEROUS

EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE CONTINUE TO THREATEN OUR FAMILIES AND THE

WELL-BEING OF OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS. WHICH IS MY -- WHY WE MUST ACT

NOW TO PROTECT OUR NATURAL RESOURCES AND FIND GREENER ALTERNATIVES.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

PART OF THAT IS ADVANCING THE USE OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES. THIS BILL IS A

PIVOTAL STEP FORWARD. WE JUST UNVEILED 25 NEW CHARGING STATIONS IN MY

DISTRICT IN THE CITY OF AMSTERDAM. IT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN

PROVIDING THOSE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS. FOR ME, AS A CIVIL ENGINEER, I

KNOW THAT TECHNOLOGY LIKE THIS CAN HELP US FIND THOSE GREENER

ALTERNATIVES AND PRESERVE OUR COMMUNITY AND OUR NATIONAL RESOURCES.

THE CHARGING STATIONS PROVIDING -- WILL HELP BOOST THE ECONOMY,

PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND ALSO REDUCE OUR CARB -- OUR CARBON FOOTPRINT.

I'M COMMITTED TO DOING EVERYTHING I CAN TO BUILD A HEALTHIER PLANET AND

THIS BILL IS A GOOD STEP FORWARD.

THANK YOU TO THE SPONSOR AND I VOTE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SANTABARBARA IN

THE AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

YOU HAVE TO UNMUTE YOURSELF, MR. --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: NOW -- NOW -- NOW I'M

UNMUTED. YES, THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: (INAUDIBLE) FINE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I JUST WANT TO COMPLIMENT THE

SPONSOR. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT STEP TOWARD THE GOALS THAT ARE OUTLINED

IN THE CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY PROTECTION ACT. THE

IMPLEMENTATION OF THOSE GOALS WILL OF COURSE REQUIRE THAT WE TRANSITION

AWAY FROM THE NUMBER ONE POLLUTION SOURCE, WHICH IS INTERNAL

COMBUSTION ENGINES. THE WAY TO DO THAT IS OUTLINED IN THESE ELECTRIC

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

RECHARGING STATIONS, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS A JOURNEY THAT WE HAVE

EVERY INDICATION HAS BEGUN AND NEEDS TO BE CONTINUED, AND THIS BILL

ADVANCES THAT POSSIBILITY. THIS IS THE FUTURE. IT IS A NECESSARY STEP THAT

WE'RE TAKING HERE.

AGAIN, TO MY COLLEAGUE FROM STATEN ISLAND,

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR VISION AND YOUR FORESIGHT. I VOTE YES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT IN

THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE --

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. PLEASE ADD THE

FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ASSEMBLYMEMBERS IN SUPPORT OF THIS LEGISLATION:

ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO, ASSEMBLYMAN MCDONOUGH, ASSEMBLYWOMAN

MILLER, ASSEMBLYMAN RA, ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY AND ASSEMBLYMAN

TANNOUSIS.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 15, CALENDAR NO. 161, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A00903, CALENDAR NO.

161, O'DONNELL, ENGLEBRIGHT, ABINANTI, OTIS, GALEF, GLICK, GOTTFRIED,

EPSTEIN, STECK, REYES, COLTON, GRIFFIN, CARROLL, BRAUNSTEIN, SEAWRIGHT,

SIMON, VANEL, KELLES, BARRON, BURDICK, CLARK. AN ACT TO AMEND

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING THE USE OF

DRILLING FLUIDS, BRINE AND FLOWBACK WATER FROM WELLS, POOLS OR FIELDS ON

ANY HIGHWAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON A MOTION BY MR.

O'DONNELL, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

AN EXPLANATION IS REQUESTED, MR. O'DONNELL.

MR. O'DONNELL: WITH PLEASURE. THIS BILL WOULD

REQUIRE THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION TO PROHIBIT THE

USE OF DRILLING FLUIDS, BRINE AND FLOWBACK WATER ON HIGHWAYS FOR

PURPOSES OF DEICING AND DUST SUPPRESSION.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SMULLEN.

MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS, PLEASE?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. O'DONNELL: WITH PLEASURE, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL

YIELDS.

MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

O'DONNELL. IT'S VERY GOOD TO SEE YOU EVEN VIRTUALLY HERE ON EARTH DAY

IN THE NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY. I'VE GOT A FEW QUESTIONS I'D LIKE TO

ASK YOU ABOUT THIS -- THIS PARTICULAR BILL HAVING TO DO WITH CURRENT

REGULATIONS THAT THE -- THE STATE ALREADY HAS. IN TITLE VI NEW YORK

CODE OF REGULATIONS 360.12, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE ROAD SPREADING OF

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

DRILLING FLUIDS AND FLOWBACK WATER IS ALREADY PROHIBITED?

MR. O'DONNELL: IT -- YES. THEY ARE PROHIBITED

SINCE 2014.

MR. SMULLEN: SO I -- I WOULD JUST ASK

FUNDAMENTALLY, WHY IS THIS BILL NECESSARY?

MR. O'DONNELL: IT'S NECESSARY IN ORDER TO ASSURE

THAT THE LIQUID THAT WE SPREAD ON -- OR THE DEHYDRATED LIQUID THAT WE

SPREAD THAT IT IS -- DOES NOT HAVE CERTAIN CONTAMINANTS, SOMETHING

CALLED NORMS, NATURALLY OCCURRING RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS, LIKE

RADIUM AND BENZENE GETS SPREAD ON THE -- ON THE HIGHWAYS AND BYWAYS

OF NEW YORK. THOSE -- THOSE MATERIALS CAN ENDANGER THE HEALTH AND

SAFETY OF THE ROAD WORKERS AND ARE LIKELY TO SEEP INTO OUR LAKES AND

GROUNDWATER.

MR. SMULLEN: OKAY. WELL, I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO

THE RADIOACTIVE ISSUE IN A LITTLE BIT. BUT FIRST I'D LIKE TO --

MR. O'DONNELL: OKAY.

MR. SMULLEN: -- ASK YOU ABOUT THE CURRENT DEC

PROHIBITION OF -- OF SALT BRINE WITHIN 50 FEET OF A STREAM, A CREEK, A LAKE

OR OTHER BODY OF WATER. I THINK DEC AND OUR STATE DEPARTMENT OF

TRANSPORTATION ALREADY DOES A GOOD JOB, ESPECIALLY WHERE THE -- THE

PEOPLE ARE VERY WELL-TRAINED AND EDUCATED. SO COULD YOU JUST OUTLINE

FOR ME, THEN, THE -- THE ENVIRONMENTAL GOALS OF THIS BILL WHEN THE SALT

BRINE CANNOT BE USED NEAR OUR WATER RESOURCES ALREADY?

MR. O'DONNELL: CURRENTLY, CITIES CAN APPLY FOR A

BENEFICIAL USE DETERMINATION PERMIT FOR THE USE OF THOSE MATERIALS.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AND IN -- SINCE 1996 THEY HAVE ISSUED 154 OF THOSE PERMITS AND THEY

LAST FOR FIVE YEARS. NOW WHAT THEY DO IS THEY TEST A REPRESENTATIVE

SAMPLE OF WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT DOWN. BUT ANY SAMPLE CAN VARY

WIDELY IN TOXINS, AND THEY DON'T REQUIRE REGULAR TESTING OF SAMPLES.

MEANING THAT IF A SAMPLE IS DETERMINED TO BE SAFE, THEY CAN GET A BUD

PERMIT AND ARE ALLOWED TO USE IT. BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT

NOT ALL THE BRINE FROM THAT LOCATION IS NECESSARILY SAFE. ADDITIONALLY,

VERY DISTURBING TO ME, IT DOES NOT -- DEC DOES NOT TEST FOR TOXIC

MATERIALS LIKE ARSENIC AND CHROMIUM EVEN WHEN SCHOOL DISTRICTS ASK TO

SPREAD IT ON SCHOOL GROUNDS. I KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT BECAUSE OF A

FIGHT IN MY COMMUNITY TO PREVENT A SCHOOL FROM BEING BUILT ON

PROPERTY THAT CONTAINED THOSE HEAVY METALS.

MR. SMULLEN: SO -- WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH

FOR THAT EXPLANATION. I KNOW DEC HAS BEEN WORKING THIS ISSUE FOR

MANY YEARS BECAUSE OF THE MARCELLUS SHALE COMING INTO NEW YORK

AND THE -- THE CURRENT PROHIBITION ON FRACKING FOR NATURAL GAS IN NEW

YORK STATE. WHY -- IN THIS CASE, SINCE THEY'RE REALLY THE TECHNICAL

EXPERTS, WHY SHOULDN'T THE RULEMAKING AND PROCESSES BE LEFT --

DELEGATED TO THE DEC BY HAVING TO HAVE SPECIFIC LEGISLATION TO WHICH,

YOU KNOW, MANY -- MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT A LOT OF FAMILIARITY WITH?

MR. O'DONNELL: WELL, WE DON'T HAVE A LEGISLATIVE

BAN IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, WHICH I WOULD BE IN FAVOR OF.

OBVIOUSLY, IN 2017 THEY BANNED THE USE FROM THE MARCELLUS SHALE,

WHICH IS MOSTLY -- A LOT OF IT COMES FROM PENNSYLVANIA. BUT THEY CAN

STILL USE ROADWAYS FOR -- FROM OTHER SOURCES. AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS -- I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WERE HERE THEN WHEN

THIS WHOLE THING CAME UP -- THE MOST SHOCKING THING TO ME TO LEARN

WAS THAT THE COMPANIES INVOLVED WERE UNABLE TO ARTICULATE OR RELEASE

TO US WHAT WAS IN THE LIQUID THEY WERE SHOOTING INTO THE GROUND, NOR

WERE THEY ABLE TO TELL US WHAT COMES OUT AFTER THEY'VE FRACKED WITH IT.

AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THOSE OMISSIONS LEAVE ROOM FOR DANGER IN THIS

CIRCUMSTANCE. CLEARLY, WE'VE SPENT A LIFETIME OF USING PRODUCTS THAT

WE THOUGHT WERE SAFE AT A TIME AND WE LEARNED THEY'RE NOT SAFE. AND

SO SINCE WE, IN NEW YORK STATE, ARE ESSENTIALLY A WATER SOURCE FOR THE

ENTIRE EAST COAST, I THINK WE SHOULD BE STEWARDS OF THAT AND ENSURE --

DO EVERYTHING WITHIN OUR POWER TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF OUR WATER

SOURCE.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, YOU KNOW, I REALLY APPRECIATE

THE -- THE EFFORT TOWARDS STEWARDSHIP. IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S OBVIOUSLY --

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO US IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION

COMMUNITY. BUT THERE ARE ALWAYS COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH -- WITH THESE

SORTS OF LAWS. CURRENTLY, MUNICIPALITIES CAN ACTUALLY PETITION DEC IF

THEY WANT TO USE THE SALT BRINE ON A CASE-SPECIFIC BASIS. IT'S CERTAINLY

MORE AFFORDABLE THAN ROAD SALT. WOULD THIS BILL PROHIBIT MUNICIPALITIES

FROM BEING ABLE TO CONTINUE THIS PROCESS?

MR. O'DONNELL: IT WOULD PROHIBIT THE DEC FROM

ISSUING BUD PERMITS, WHICH IS THE WAY THEY GET TO USE THAT. SO, YES,

THAT WOULD BE ENDED. CORRECT.

MR. SMULLEN: SO, THERE IS A FINANCIAL IMPLICATION

TO THIS TO -- TO PUBLIC ENTITIES. DOES THIS BILL OFFSET THE COST FOR THE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

STATE TO PURCHASE THIS MORE EXPENSIVE ROAD SALT NOW THAT IT WILL BE

PROHIBITED FOR OUR HIGHWAYS?

MR. O'DONNELL: I DON'T BELIEVE "EXPENSIVE" IS THE

ACCURATE WORD. I WOULD USE THE WORD "WIDELY-USED ROCK SALT."

MR. SMULLEN: AND -- AND DOES THIS BILL POINT THE

WAY TOWARDS HOW THE -- THE BRINE THAT'S CURRENTLY PRODUCED IN THE STATE

IT SHOULD BE -- HOW IT WOULD BE DISPOSED OF SINCE THEY'RE -- YOU KNOW,

THE ALLEGED NEXUS FOR THIS LEGISLATION IS THE ACTUAL CONTAMINANTS THAT

YOU'VE MENTIONED?

MR. O'DONNELL: NO, BUT I'D BE HAPPY TO WRITE

ONE. LIKE, THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER BILLS - I DON'T RECALL IF THEY'VE PASSED

- WHICH BANNED THE TRANSPORT OF THAT, PARTICULARLY OVER IN LONG ISLAND

AND PLACES WHERE IT'S BASICALLY ONE BIG SANDBAR. AND THE FEAR OF THAT

LIQUID GETTING RELEASED INTO THAT SANDBAR IS VERY THREATENING. I DON'T

KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS TO WHAT THAT IS. AND MAYBE YOU AND I SHOULD

WRITE A BILL ABOUT THE WAY TO DO IT --

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, I -- I CERTAINLY --

MR. O'DONNELL: -- SAFELY.

MR. SMULLEN: I APPRECIATE THAT. YOU KNOW, I

THINK IF -- IF THE ANSWER IS, LIKE YOU'D MENTIONED, WE -- WE'RE NOT SURE,

BUT DEC SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT BECAUSE

THEY'RE THE ONE TO HAVE THE -- THE WATER DIVISION, SCIENTISTS, STAFFING THAT

WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

MR. O'DONNELL: WELL, I -- I WOULD AGREE WITH

YOU, EXCEPT THAT THEY HAVE A PROCESS THAT THEY USE WHICH IS SEVERELY

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

LIMITED IN ITS SCOPE IN WHAT IT DOESN'T INCLUDE, AND ALLOWS THAT PERMIT

TO EXIST FOR A PERIOD OF TIME EVEN WHEN THEY ONLY USE ONE SAMPLE IN IT.

AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT DISPOSAL ISSUES, WE PASSED LAWS -- WE HAVE

PASSED LAWS ABOUT THAT. SO, I DON'T RECALL WHAT THEY ARE. THEY WERE

NOT MY BILL.

MR. SMULLEN: I APPRECIATE THAT. SO JUST TO GO

BACK TO THE ISSUE OF CONTAMINATION, AND PARTICULARLY RADIOACTIVITY.

WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU USING TO -- TO DEMONSTRATE THAT SOME OF THESE

MATERIALS THAT COME OUT OF THESE WELLS ARE RADIOACTIVE?

MR. O'DONNELL: I AM NOT A SCIENTIST. I'M -- I'M

BARELY A LAWYER. BUT THE ENTITIES THAT I REFER TO ARE CALLED NORMS

BECAUSE THE RADIOACTIVITY IS NATURALLY OCCURRING. AND SO THEY -- IT

OCCURS IN THEM. I DON'T KNOW AT WHAT LEVEL THEY OCCUR AT. I BELIEVE THE

DEC DOES AND SHOULD USE A STANDARD MEASUREMENT. BUT IF YOU'RE

GOING TO ASK ME WHAT PARTS PER MILLION, I HAVE NO IDEA.

MR. SMULLEN: WOULD IT -- WOULD IT BE MORE OR

LESS THAN THE MARBLE AND GRANITE THAT'S IN THE ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

PRODUCES STILL AFTER IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, MINED A 100 YEARS AGO?

MR. O'DONNELL: NO IDEA.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING TO

FIND OUT IN CASE WE NEED TO START WEARING DOSIMETERS AROUND THE -- THE

CHAMBER FOR THE NATURALLY-OCCURRING RADIOACTIVITY IN THE ENVIRONMENT.

MR. O'DONNELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE TIME.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SMULLEN.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, I -- I APPRECIATE THE -- THE

SPONSOR'S INTENT BEHIND THIS, AND I UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF

INDUSTRIAL WASTE AND THE -- AND THE PRODUCTS THAT COME OUT OF IT. I THINK

THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF AN OVERREACTION IN MANY WAYS FOR A PROBLEM THAT'S

REALLY NOT PREVALENT IN NEW YORK STATE. BUT IT'S ALSO A WAY TO, BY A

THOUSAND DIFFERENT LAWS, TO BE ABLE TO HEM IN THE ABILITY IN THE FUTURE IF

WE CHOOSE TO DO SO TO BE ABLE TO REVITALIZE NEW YORK'S GAS AND OIL

INDUSTRY THROUGH FRACKING. I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S NECESSARY. I THINK THE

CURRENT REGULATIONS THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE ARE VERY EFFECTIVE. I THINK

THAT PEOPLE THAT USE, IN THIS CASE THE SALT BRINE, ON SOME OF OUR ROADS

AND FOR DEICING AND FOR DUST PALLIATIVES FOR INDUSTRIAL PURPOSES ARE

ADEQUATE.

AND FOR THOSE REASONS I'LL BE VOTING AGAINST THIS BILL.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL, WILL

YOU YIELD?

I THINK YOU HAVE TO UNMUTE, MR. O'DONNELL.

MR. O'DONNELL: WELL, THAT'S BECAUSE SOMEBODY

UNMUTED -- MUTED ME. I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT HAPPENED.

(LAUGHTER)

YES, MR. GOODELL, I'D BE HAPPY TO YIELD TO YOU. BUT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

I'M CERTAIN MY BILL IS CONSTITUTIONAL. SO LET'S MOVE ON.

(LAUGHTER)

MR. GOODELL: WELL, WHY DON'T WE START WITH THE

CONSTITUTIONALITY SINCE YOU RAISED IT?

MR. O'DONNELL: OKAY.

MR. GOODELL: THIS BILL THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING

BANS THE USE OF ANY SALT BRINE, AS AN EXAMPLE, THAT'S PRODUCED FROM

WELLS ON ANY HIGHWAYS, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: THERE -- THERE IS A DEFINITION IN

THE TRANSPORTATION LAW OF WHAT HIGHWAYS ARE, SO YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: BUT THIS BILL DOESN'T PROHIBIT SALT

BRINE THAT MEETS CERTAIN CHEMICAL PARAMETERS OR EXCEEDS CERTAIN

CHEMICAL PARAMETERS, IT PROHIBITS SALT BRINE BASED NOT ON ITS CHEMICAL

COMPOSITION BUT FROM ITS SOURCE, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: IT DOES, BUT I WOULD IMAGINE

YOUR SIDE OF THE AISLE WOULD BE THRILLED IF I WROTE A BILL THAT REQUIRED

THE DEC TO TEST OR DETERMINE THAT IN ALL THE OTHER PRODUCTS AVAILABLE

THAT ARE NOT FROM THE SOURCE THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

MR. GOODELL: SO IN OTHER WORDS, UNDER THIS BILL,

EVEN IF IT WERE TO PASS AND BE SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR, LOCAL

MUNICIPALITIES THAT RELY ON SALT BRINE COULD MAKE THEIR OWN USING ROAD

SALT, ADDING WATER AND MAKING THEIR OWN AND THAT WOULD BE PERFECTLY

LEGAL EVEN AFTER THE ADOPTION OF THIS BILL, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN.

THEY MAKE THEIR OWN?

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. GOODELL: CORRECT --

MR. O'DONNELL: IF IT'S DERIVED FROM THE -- FROM

THE FRACKING PROCESS IT WOULD NOT BE PERMITTED --

MR. GOODELL: NO, THEY TAKE ROCK SALT. THEY TAKE

ROCK SALT, THEY ADD WATER. THAT CREATES A SALT BRINE WHICH HAS IDENTICAL

CHEMICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SALT BRINE THAT THEY WOULD OTHERWISE GET

AS A NATURAL BYPRODUCT OF NATURAL GAS PRODUCTION. THIS BILL WOULD ONLY

PROHIBIT SALT BRINE IF IT CAME FROM A NATURAL GAS WELL. IT WOULD NOT

PROHIBIT IDENTICAL COMPOSITION SALT BRINE IF IT'S CREATED FROM ROAD SALT,

CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: WELL, MY FAVORITE LINE FROM

WHEN I WAS A PRACTICING ATTORNEY WAS ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

SO YOU'RE ASSUMING THAT THE COMPOSITION OF HOMEMADE ROCK SALT IS THE

SAME CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF -- OF HYDROFRACKING FLUID. AND AS I

MENTIONED EARLIER, EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO DO THE FRACKING PROCESS ARE

UNABLE TO TELL US WHAT IS IN THE FLUID THEY PUT IN THE GROUND, NOR ARE

THEY ABLE TO TELL US WHAT IS THE COMPOSITION OF THE FLUID THAT COMES OUT

OF THE GROUND, WHICH IS WHAT THIS IS ATTEMPTING TO BAN.

MR. GOODELL: SO LET ME BE MORE PRECISE IN MY

QUESTIONING.

MR. O'DONNELL: OKAY.

MR. GOODELL: THE DEC ALREADY PROHIBITS THE USE

OF FLOWBACK WATER OR WATER USED IN FRACKING. IT'S ALREADY BANNED, IT'S

BEEN BANNED FOR YEARS.

MR. O'DONNELL: SINCE 2017, YES.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. GOODELL: THIS BILL PROHIBITS SALT BRINE, WHICH

IS A NATURALLY-OCCURRING BYPRODUCT OF NATURAL GAS, BUT WOULD NOT

PROHIBIT SALT BRINE THAT'S CREATED BY ADDING ROAD SALT TO WATER, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: IF YOU'RE ADDING IT TO SOMETHING

THAT CAME OUT OF A WELL, THEN YOU'RE PROHIBITED.

MR. GOODELL: BUT IF YOU'RE ADDING WATER TO SALT

THAT COMES FROM ROCK SALT, THAT'S NOT PROHIBITED, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: CORRECT, BECAUSE FRACKING FLUID

IS ROCK SALT PLUS CHEMICALS.

MR. GOODELL: SO I KNOW I'VE ASKED THE SAME

QUESTION --

MR. O'DONNELL: WELL, I'M INTERESTED IN BANNING

CHEMICALS.

MR. GOODELL: -- FOUR OR FIVE TIMES, BUT THIS BILL

ONLY APPLIES TO SALT BRINE THAT COMES FROM NATURAL GAS WELLS, DOES NOT

APPLY TO ANY OTHER SALT BRINE COMING FROM ANY OTHER SOURCE, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: AND SO JUST -- I'M JUST GOING TO

MENTION THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE AND THEN I'LL MOVE ON. THERE IS AN

EQUAL PROTECTION ARGUMENT AND A DUE PROCESS ARGUMENT WHEN WE

PROHIBIT A PRODUCT BASED ON ITS SOURCE AND NOT BASED ON ITS

COMPOSITION. SO LET'S LOOK AT THE COMPOSITION. I JUST RAISED THE DUE

PROCESS EQUAL PROTECTION ARGUMENT, BUT LET'S LOOK AT THE COMPOSITION.

RIGHT NOW THE DEC REGULATIONS TEST FOR 13 PARAMETERS. VERY DETAILED,

VERY STRICT AND VERY TIGHT PARAMETERS FOR ANY CONTAMINANTS THAT MIGHT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

BE IN SALT BRINE THAT COMES AS A NATURAL BYPRODUCT OF A NATURAL GAS WELL.

OTHER THAN THESE 13 PARAMETERS, ARE THERE OTHER PARAMETERS YOU THINK

SHOULD BE TESTED?

MR. O'DONNELL: YES. TOXIC HEAVY METALS LIKE

ARSENIC AND CHROMIUM, WHICH AS I MENTIONED TO THE PREVIOUS

QUESTIONER, HAVE BECOME CENTRAL TO A FIGHT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, THE

CHROMIUM, ABOUT ITS LOCATION UNDER A SCHOOL THEY PROPOSED AND THE

SCHOOL HAS NOW BEEN MOVED FROM THAT LOCATION BECAUSE THE PEOPLE

WHO LIVED ADJACENT TO IT AND THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD SEND THEIR KIDS TO

SAID SCHOOL DID NOT WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO GO TO A SCHOOL THAT'S SITTING

ON A BED OF CHROMIUM.

MR. GOODELL: AND DID THIS SCHOOL THAT YOU

MENTIONED, DID THEY USE NATURALLY-OCCURRING SALT BRINE ON THE

ROADWAYS?

MR. O'DONNELL: NO.

MR. GOODELL: SO THIS CHROMIUM WAS --

MR. O'DONNELL: THIS WAS ON --

MR. GOODELL: -- UNRELATED --

MR. O'DONNELL: THIS WAS ON AN EMPTY -- IT

WASN'T A ROADWAY, IT WAS AN EMPTY LOT.

MR. GOODELL: OKAY.

MR. O'DONNELL: AND THERE WAS WHAT THE

COMMUNITY VIEWED AS TOO HIGH TOXIC LEVELS OF CHEMICALS IN THE GROUND

MR. GOODELL: AND AM I CORRECT --

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. O'DONNELL: -- AND THEY DIDN'T WANT A

SCHOOL --

MR. GOODELL: RIGHT. AM I CORRECT THERE ARE NO

NATURAL GAS WELLS IN YOUR DISTRICT?

MR. O'DONNELL: YOU ARE CORRECT, MR. GOODELL.

YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND AM I CORRECT THAT THEY DON'T

USE SALT BRINE FROM NATURAL GAS WELLS IN YOUR DISTRICT?

MR. O'DONNELL: I AM UNAWARE OF IT IF THEY DO.

MR. GOODELL: OR IN ANY NEIGHBORING DISTRICTS?

MR. O'DONNELL: I WOULD HOPE NOT.

MR. GOODELL: RIGHT? I MEAN, YOU LIVE IN NEW

YORK CITY. IT'S -- THEY DON'T HAVE ANY NATURAL GAS WELLS IN NEW YORK

CITY, THE ENTIRE CITY, CORRECT?

MR. O'DONNELL: THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: AND THEY DON'T USE SALT BRINE

ANYWHERE IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK, RIGHT?

MR. O'DONNELL: I HAVE -- I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE

OF THAT.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. I COME FROM A DISTRICT THAT

HAS 5,000 WELLS AND SEVERAL MUNICIPALITIES THAT DO EXTRAORDINARY

TESTING ON A REGULAR BASIS TO ENSURE THE SALT BRINE DOESN'T HAVE ANY

IMPURITIES BEFORE APPLYING IT TO THE ROADWAYS. HAVE YOU TALKED TO

OTHERS LIKE MYSELF WHO ACTUALLY HAVE NATURAL GAS WELLS AND ACTUALLY USE

THIS PRODUCT?

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. O'DONNELL: ON --

MR. GOODELL: OTHER THAN TODAY, OF COURSE.

MR. O'DONNELL: OTHER -- OTHER THAN TODAY, WHICH

HAS BEEN A WONDERFUL USE OF OUR TIME, I SPOKE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF

THIS QUESTION WITH BARBARA LIFTON WHO, YES, IN FACT, DID HAVE THEM.

AND THE FIRST PUBLIC HEARING I ATTENDED WAS FILLED WITH CONSTITUENTS

WHO HAD FARMS AND FARMLAND WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT THEIR

DESIGNATION AS AN ORGANIC FARM WAS UNDER THREAT IF THIS WENT FORWARD.

MR. GOODELL: AND I'M --

MR. O'DONNELL: SHE'S NO LONGER THERE, BUT SHE'S

BEEN -- BUT WE -- WE TALKED ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME.

MR. GOODELL: I'M GLAD YOU RAISED THE ISSUE OF

FARMERS. AND IN MY COUNTY, OF COURSE, MANY FARMERS USE THE ROYALTIES

FROM THESE NATURAL GASES TO SURVIVE. I MEAN, IT'S AN ADDITIONAL SOURCE

OF INCOME. IS THERE ANYTHING IN THIS BILL THAT WOULD OFFSET THE LOSS OF

REVENUES THEY MIGHT IF WE ERASE -- THE NATURAL CONSEQUENCE OF THIS IS TO

RAISE THE COST OF NATURAL GAS PRODUCTION IN NEW YORK STATE. IS THERE

OFFSETTING BENEFIT TO FARMERS TO OFFSET THE LOSS IN ROYALTY REVENUES THEY

MIGHT RECEIVE?

MR. O'DONNELL: THERE IS NO FINANCIAL OFFSET OF

ANY KIND.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, AS YOU KNOW, NATURAL GAS

WELLS ARE A TAX, THERE'S A REAL PROPERTY TAX THAT APPLIES TO NATURAL GAS

WELLS, AND THAT REAL PROPERTY TAX IS BASED ON PRODUCTION. IS THERE ANY

TAX CREDIT OR ANY OTHER FINANCIAL BENEFIT OR OFFSET FOR LOCAL

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MUNICIPALITIES THAT MAY SEE A REDUCTION IN TAX REVENUE AS THESE WELLS

ARE FORCED TO BE SHUT IN?

MR. O'DONNELL: THERE IS NO FINANCIAL IMPLICATION

AS IT RELATES TO TAX CREDITS OR MUNICIPALITIES.

MR. GOODELL: I KNOW YOU MENTIONED A CONCERN

ABOUT THE USE OF THE SALT BRINE AFFECTING WATERWAYS, AND AS YOU KNOW

THE DEC HAS STRICT RESTRICTIONS ON ANY USE OF SALT BRINE NEAR WATERWAYS.

IT ALSO HAS STRICT RESTRICTIONS ON THE APPLICATION RATE. IT REQUIRES THE

APPLICATORS TO BE WELL-TRAINED. IT REQUIRES SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT THAT

GOVERNS THE RATE AT WHICH THE SALT BRINE IS APPLIED. ARE YOU AWARE IF

THERE'S ANY COMPARABLE RESTRICTIONS IN THE DEC ON THE APPLICATION OF

ROAD SALT WHICH WHEN COMBINED WITH WATER IS VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL?

MR. O'DONNELL: ONCE AGAIN, I VEHEMENTLY

DISAGREE WITH THE WORD "VIRTUALLY" AND I WOULD SAY NO, I'M NOT AWARE.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. WHY IS IT THAT WE'RE BANNING

ALL NATURALLY-OCCURRING SALT BRINE FROM BEING USED ON ANY ROADWAYS

RATHER THAN PASS LEGISLATION ADDING ADDITIONAL PARAMETERS FOR THE DEC

FOR TESTING?

MR. O'DONNELL: I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND

SAY HAVING BEEN HERE FOR 20 YEARS I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT SAME

LEGISLATION WOULD BE AS VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED ON YOUR SIDE OF THE AISLE

AS THIS IS.

MR. GOODELL: OF COURSE WE RELY ON THE EXPERTISE

OF THE DEC TO COME UP WITH THESE TESTING PARAMETERS AND, INDEED, AS I

MENTIONED, THERE'S OVER A DOZEN TESTING PARAMETERS THEY HAVE. IS IT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

YOUR VIEW THAT THE DEC IS SIMPLY NOT COMPETENT IN DETERMINING WHICH

PARAMETERS SHOULD BE TESTED, AND IF SO AT WHAT LEVEL?

MR. O'DONNELL: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THE DEC IS

INCOMPETENT.

MR. GOODELL: OKAY. AND I WOULD AGREE. THEY'RE

CERTAINLY, I WILL SHARE WITH YOU, MUCH MORE COMPETENT ON THESE

SCIENTIFIC MATTERS THAN I AM. LIKE YOU, I'M ALSO AN ATTORNEY.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. O'DONNELL. I ALWAYS

APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS.

ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. O'DONNELL: IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE AND IT'S

VERY NICE TO SEE YOU, MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. O'DONNELL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.

GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: SO, MANY OF OUR UPSTATE

MUNICIPALITIES USE THE NATURALLY-OCCURRING BYPRODUCT OF NATURAL GAS

WELLS, WHICH IS SALT BRINE IN ORDER FOR THEM TO CONTROL ICE ON THE ROADS

RATHER THAN USING ROCK SALT. AND THE DEC REQUIRES AN ANNUAL PERMIT,

HAS DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS ON THE EQUIPMENT, HOW IT'S TO BE APPLIED,

WHERE IT CAN BE APPLIED, THE VOLUME IT CAN BE APPLIED AND A NUMBER OF

OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL RESTRICTIONS ALL DESIGNED TO PROTECT THE HEALTH OF

NEW YORKERS. NOW, THIS BILL DOESN'T PROHIBIT THE USE OF SALT BRINE AS

ROAD DEICING OR DUST CONTROL. IT ONLY PROHIBITS SALT BRINE THAT'S A NATURAL

BYPRODUCT OF NATURAL GAS WELLS. IN OTHER WORDS, THIS BILL DOESN'T DEAL

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

WITH THE CONTENT OF THE SALT BRINE, BUT BANS IT BASED ON ITS SOURCE. IN

THE PROCESS, IT ONCE AGAIN INCREASES THE COST OF ALL OF OUR NATURAL GAS

PRODUCERS IN THE STATE (INAUDIBLE). WHICH EITHER RENDERS OUR NATURAL

GAS LESS COMPETITIVE, RESULTING IN LOWER ROYALTIES TO ALL THE LANDOWNERS

WHO RELY ON IT AND LOWER TAX REVENUES FOR ALL OF OUR LOCAL UPSTATE

MUNICIPALITIES, OR IT INCREASES THE COST TO THE CONSUMER. NOW, EVEN

THOUGH WE HAVE TIGHT TESTING PARAMETERS ON OVER A DOZEN POTENTIAL

CONTAMINANTS, THIS BILL DOESN'T ASK THE DEC TO ESTABLISH OR CREATE

TESTING PARAMETERS FOR ANY ADDITIONAL CONTAMINANTS. AND THERE'S A

GREAT REASON WHY THE DEC IN MY AREA WHERE WE HAVE OVER 5,000 WELLS

DOESN'T TEST FOR ARSENIC OR CHROMIUM, AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S NOT NOT

NATURALLY OCCURRING WHERE THESE NATURAL GAS WELLS ARE. SO WE HAVE A

BILL THAT'S NOT FOCUSED ON THE CHEMICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF WHAT IS

APPLIED TO KEEP OUR ROADS SAFE FOR THE TRAVELING PUBLIC, BUT IT'S SOLELY

FOCUSED ON THE SOURCE OF THE PRODUCT. AND IT'S PART, IN MY OPINION, OF

AN EFFORT TO MAKE OUR NATURAL GAS INDUSTRY LESS COMPETITIVE WITH THE

UNANTICIPATED AND UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF INCREASING THE COST TO

ALL OF OUR LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES THAT RELY ON THIS SOURCE, REDUCING THE

REVENUES TO OUR FARMERS AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO RELIES ON ROYALTIES IN

REDUCING THE TAX REVENUE TO ALL THE MUNICIPALITIES IN THE SUB-STATE

JURISDICTIONS.

IF WE WANT TO KEEP OUR FOCUS ON THE ENVIRONMENT, I'M

ALL IN. BUT IF WE'RE TRYING TO USE THE ENVIRONMENT AS AN EXCUSE TO

FURTHER HAMPER, IMPEDE OR SHUT DOWN OUR STRUGGLING NATURAL GAS

INDUSTRY, I'M OPPOSED. AND FOR THAT REASON I WILL BE OPPOSING THIS BILL

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AND THE TREMENDOUS ADDITIONAL COST IT IMPOSES ON ALL THE LOCALITIES ALL

ACROSS THE STATE THAT RELY ON THIS CAREFULLY TESTED NATURAL BYPRODUCT TO

KEEP OUR ROADWAYS SAFE FOR THE TRAVELING PUBLIC.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. JONES.

MR. JONES: WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. O'DONNELL: ABSOLUTELY, MR. JONES. GO RIGHT

AHEAD.

MR. JONES: HI, DANNY. HOW ARE YOU?

MR. O'DONNELL: I'M GOOD.

MR. JONES: I BROKE MY RECORD HERE THIS YEAR. I SAID

I WASN'T GOING TO GET UP AND QUESTION ANYBODY, BUT I JUST WANT TO MAKE

CLEAR ABOUT THE INTENT OF THIS BILL. AND IF YOU WOULD ANSWER A FEW

QUESTIONS BECAUSE I GOT A LITTLE CONFUSED IN SOME OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS HERE, WHICH DOESN'T TAKE MUCH SOMETIMES. BUT,

YOU ARE NOT -- THIS BILL DOES NOT PROHIBIT THE USE OF SALTWATER BRINE ON

OUR ROADWAYS?

MR. O'DONNELL: NO, IT DOES NOT.

MR. JONES: OKAY. SO WHEN YOU SAID

MUNICIPALITIES CAN -- THEY -- THEY -- THEY CANNOT APPLY FOR A PERMIT FOR

THAT SALTWATER BRINE, WE WEREN'T SAYING THAT THEY CAN'T -- THAT -- THAT

THEY CAN STILL USE IT, THOUGH, CORRECT? MAYBE THAT WAS A LITTLE MORE

CONFUSING --

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. O'DONNELL: THEY CAN -- YES, THEY CAN USE IT

EXCEPT IF IT COMES FROM FRACKING.

MR. JONES: OKAY.

MR. O'DONNELL: SO THE PROBLEM IS -- YOU KNOW,

THE PREVIOUS QUESTIONER USED THE WORD "NATURAL." AND IF --

MR. JONES: OKAY.

MR. O'DONNELL: AND IF YOU PUT WATER IN THE

GROUND AT HIGH PRESSURE AND THEN TAKE IT OUT, THERE ARE THINGS BESIDES

WATER IN THERE OTHER THAN SALT --

MR. JONES: YUP.

MR. O'DONNELL: -- AND THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT

I'M CONCERNED ABOUT.

MR. JONES: OKAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR THE

CLARITY THERE AS WELL, BECAUSE MANY OF US IN THE ADIRONDACKS AND SUCH

-- I SPONSORED A BILL LAST YEAR WITH MY FRIENDS ACROSS THE AISLE FROM THE

ADIRONDACKS THAT WE WERE -- WE WERE TRYING TO REDUCE THE USE OF ROCK

SALT, ROAD SALT, ON OUR ROADWAYS, WHICH WAS GETTING INTO OUR WATERWAYS

AND GETTING INTO PEOPLE'S WELLS AND IS REALLY CREATING HAVOC AND A

PROBLEM. SO, ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES TO THAT -- MAYBE I SHOULD SAY ON

THE BILL. I'M SORRY, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL.

MR. JONES: ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES TO THAT WOULD

BE THE USE OF SALTWATER BRINE, BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY -- MAYBE

FORTUNATELY, I KNOW MORE ABOUT SALT AND ROADS THAN I EVER THOUGHT I

WOULD BE. I JOINED THE NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY TO TALK ABOUT ROAD

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SALT AND ROCK SALT ON ROADS. BUT ONE OF THE -- ONE OF OUR ALTERNATIVES TO

THAT IS TO USE SALTWATER BRINE -- TO HAVE OUR HIGHWAYS USE SALTWATER

BRINE SO IT STICKS TO THE ROAD, BECAUSE WHEN ROCK SALT HITS THE ROADS IT

FLIES OFF IN A LOT OF INSTANCES, GETS INTO OUR DITCHES, GETS INTO OUR

WATERWAYS AND EVENTUALLY GETS INTO OUR WELLS. SO, I WOULD HATE TO

HAVE A BILL OUT THERE THAT WOULD TOTALLY PROHIBIT THE USE OF SALTWATER

BRINE, SO I APPRECIATE THOSE -- THOSE ANSWERS. AND WE ARE LOOKING FOR

ALTERNATIVES. FIRST OF ALL, MAKE OUR ROADWAYS SAFE SO OUR RESIDENTS CAN

TRAVEL SAFELY ON THEM, BUT TO REDUCE THE -- THE USE OF ROCK SALT BECAUSE

IT IS HAVING SUCH -- IT IS SUCH AN ISSUE IN A LOT OF OUR AREAS WHERE IT'S

GETTING INTO PEOPLE'S WELLS, IT'S GETTING INTO OUR WATERWAYS AND IT'S

POLLUTING OUR ENVIRONMENT. AND WE CERTAINLY WANT TO KEEP MOVING

FORWARD IN THAT. SO MY CONCERNS WITH THIS BILL WAS THAT IT WAS GOING TO

TOTALLY -- TOTALLY ELIMINATE SALTWATER BRINE ON OUR ROADWAYS, WHICH

SOME OF OUR HIGHWAY DEPARTMENTS ARE GOING TO, AND WHICH THEY CAN

STILL MAKE THEMSELVES. THIS IS ONLY BANNING OR REDUCING THE USE OF THIS

FROM THE FRACKING NATURAL WELL SOURCES THAT -- THAT YOU WERE TALKING

ABOUT.

SO FOR THAT REASON I CAN SUPPORT THIS BILL. THANK YOU

VERY MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

MS. KELLES.

MS. KELLES: YES, WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A FEW

QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL, WILL

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

YOU YIELD?

MR. O'DONNELL: WITH PLEASURE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL

YIELDS.

MS. KELLES: GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. O'DONNELL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING MY QUESTIONS. I HAVE THREE QUESTIONS.

ONE, CURRENTLY IS THERE A SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR TESTING THE CHEMICALS OR

COMPOUNDS IN THE BRINE FLUID COMING FROM HYDROFRACKING OR COMING

FROM THE OIL AND GAS WELLS THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING?

MR. O'DONNELL: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

MS. KELLES: AND MY SECOND QUESTION IS, DO WE --

ARE -- ARE HYDRO -- ARE COMPANIES THAT DO HYDROFRACKING, ARE THEY

REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE ALL OF THE CHEMICALS THAT THEY USE IN THEIR BRINE

FLUID TO MAXIMIZE THE EXTRACTION OF OIL AND GAS -- NATURAL GAS FROM THEIR

-- FROM THEIR WELLS?

MR. O'DONNELL: WELL, IN FACT, WHEN WE HAD THE

PUBLIC HEARING MANY YEARS AGO, WE ASKED THAT QUESTION. THEY SAID THAT

THAT WAS INFORMATION THAT WAS PRIVATE BECAUSE IT'S, YOU KNOW, SECRET

WHAT THEY DO. (INAUDIBLE) THE HEARING, SOMEONE FROM THE PUBLIC GAVE

THEM A GLASS OF WATER THAT HE CLAIMED CAME OUT OF THEIR WELL AND

OFFERED THEM TO DRINK IT, AND THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT. SO, NO, WE

DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT GOES INTO THE WELL, NOR DO WE KNOW EXACTLY

WHAT COMES OUT OF IT.

MS. KELLES: GREAT. AND -- AND MY LAST QUESTION,

DO YOU KNOW OF -- DO TREATMENT METHODS FROM HAZARDOUS WASTE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

FACILITIES EXIST THAT COULD -- THAT COULD, IN FACT, EXTRACT ANY POTENTIAL

CHEMICALS THAT ARE IN THE BYPRODUCT, THE BRINE FLUID THAT COULD EXTRACT

ANY RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS OR ANY -- ANY CHEMICALS THAT WE MIGHT FEEL

ARE UNSAFE?

MR. O'DONNELL: NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF AT THIS

TIME.

MS. KELLES: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. KELLES: I THINK THAT THE MOST IN -- IMPORTANT

COMPONENT OF THIS, AND AS SOMEONE WHO DOES HAVE WELLS IN MY DISTRICT

AND -- AND IN HONOR OF MY PREDECESSOR, ASSEMBLYMEMBER BARBARA

LIFTON, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO CARRY THIS MESSAGE FROM -- FROM THIS

DISTRICT THAT THE MAIN ISSUE HERE IS THAT THE CHEMICALS THAT ARE USED IN

THE HYDROFRACKING PROCESS ARE PROTECTED CURRENTLY BY CASE LAW AS

PROPRIETARY, WHICH MEANS THAT WE DO NOT KNOW ALL OF THE CHEMICALS

THAT ARE IN THEM. WE HAVE SOME EXAMPLES THAT THERE ARE SOME

CHEMICALS THAT ARE USED, FOR EXAMPLE, BENZENE, WHICH IS KNOWN TO BE

ONE OF THE MOST CARCINOGENIC MOLECULES THAT EXIST ON THE PLANET. THAT

BEING SIMPLY ONE OF THOUSANDS THAT WE SUSPECT ARE BEING USED, BUT

AGAIN, WE DO NOT KNOW.

THE SECOND THING I THINK THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS

THAT RIGHT NOW THERE MAY OR MAY NOT BE METHODS TO REMOVE ALL OF THE

CHEMICALS THAT ARE IN THESE PROCESSES. THERE ARE, IN FACT, SOME -- SOME

METHODS IN HAZARDOUS WASTE FACILITIES TO REMOVE SOME OF THEM THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

COULD BE MODIFIED OR -- OR UPGRADED TO ADDRESS SOME OF THESE ISSUES,

BUT THEY ARE CURRENTLY NOT IN PLACE AND HAVE NOT BEEN TESTED. SO UNTIL

THAT FULL PROCESS IS IN PLACE AND UNTIL WE DO KNOW THE FULL COMBINATION

OF THE CHEMICALS THAT ARE IN THESE MATERIALS, UNTIL WE HAVE AN

AGREEMENT THAT HYDROFRACKING -- THAT OIL AND GAS COMPANIES ARE WILLING

TO DISCLOSE ALL OF THE CHEMICALS SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS AND REMOVE

THEM, PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT WE DO KNOW ARE CARCINOGENIC HAZARD --

AND HAZARDOUS BOTH TO HUMANS, FLORA AND FAUNA IN THE ENVIRONMENT AS A

WHOLE, THEN OUR ROLE SHOULD BE TO DO NO HARM. TO DO MINIMUM HARM.

AND I WANT TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL FOR BRINGING THIS

FORWARD. I THINK THIS IS THE PRUDENT MEASURE, GIVEN THE FACT THAT WE DO

NOT HAVE THE FULL INFORMATION EXCEPT -- EXCEPT THAT WE DO KNOW THAT

THERE ARE SOME CHEMICALS, AT LEAST A FEW, THAT ARE -- ARE HAZARDOUS AND

CARCINOGENIC THAT WE WOULD NOT WANT TO BE SPREADING ON OUR ROADS.

AGAIN, I'M SPEAKING AS SOMEONE WHO DOES HAVE WELLS IN MY DISTRICT.

SO I STAND IN SUPPORT AND -- AND WANT TO AGAIN THANK

THE SPONSOR FOR BRINGING THIS FORWARD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST -- READ

THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 180TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE ON SENATE PRINT 355. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY MEMBER WHO

WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THEIR CONFERENCE POSITION IS

REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. THOSE MEMBERS

WHO SUPPORT IT SHOULD CONTACT THE MINORITY LEADER'S OFFICE AND WE

WILL PROPERLY RECORD YOUR VOTE. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED.

MS. HYNDMAN.

MS. HYNDMAN: I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND MY

COLLEAGUES THAT THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. MAJORITY MEMBERS WILL BE

RECORDED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. IF THERE ARE ANY EXCEPTIONS, I ASK MAJORITY

MEMBERS TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY LEADER'S OFFICE AT THE NUMBER

PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU VERY

MUCH.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. O'DONNELL TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. O'DONNELL: I WOULD LIKE TO THANK THE

SPEAKER AND THE CHAIR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMITTEE FOR STICKING

WITH ME. THIS BILL WAS WRITTEN MANY, MANY YEARS AGO. THERE'S SOME

MISINFORMATION OUT THERE. YES, THE DEC DOES GIVE PERMITS, BUT THEY

LAST FOR FIVE YEARS, NOT YEARLY. AND THEY ARE ROUTINELY REISSUED WITH

ALMOST NO QUESTION. THERE'S NOTHING NATURAL ABOUT ADDING DANGEROUS

CHEMICALS TO WATER AND THEN SAYING IT'S NATURAL. IT'S NOT NATURAL. IT IS

WATER THAT HAS BEEN INFUSED WITH OTHER THINGS. AND I HAVE SEEN SOME

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

HORRIFYING PICTURES OF HUGE VATS OF THIS LIQUID SITTING OUT IN AN OPEN

FIELD. AND AS IT SITS THERE, IT DEHYDRATES, THE WATER LEAVES, EVAPORATES.

AND I'M FEARFUL FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AROUND THAT WHAT WOULD

HAPPEN IN AN EMERGENCY IF THAT WATER WERE TO LEAK OUT. IF THAT WATER

WERE TO LEAK OUT AND GET INTO THE WATER STREAM OR GET INTO SOMEONE'S

WELL OR GET INTO SOMETHING ELSE, I AM SURE THAT -- I WOULD HOPE THAT THE

STATE WOULD RISE UP AND ASSIST THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HURT BY THAT

AND NOT IMPOSE THAT ON THE LOCAL MUNICIPALITY. AND SO IT'S A QUESTION

OF WHAT YOU FEAR MOST. AND I WOULD HUMBLY SUGGEST THAT THE FEAR OF

CONTAMINATION FROM WHAT MIGHT BE IN THOSE LIQUIDS IS A STRONG ENOUGH

REASON TO STOP SPREADING THEM ON OUR HIGHWAYS AND BYWAYS.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I'LL BE VOTING IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. O'DONNELL IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. BURDICK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. BURDICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR THE

OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. ONE OF THE VERY FIRST VOTES THAT I TOOK

AS A MEMBER OF THE ASSEMBLY WAS IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION

COMMITTEE WHEN IN EARLY FEBRUARY WE VOTED TO REPORT THIS BILL OUT.

AND I WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR HIS TENACITY, HIS PERSEVERANCE IN

MOVING THIS FORWARD. ALSO, I'D LIKE TO THANK CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT FOR

MOVING THIS BILL FORWARD. I'M A COSPONSOR OF THIS BILL, AND ONE OF THE

MAIN CONCERNS THAT I HAVE ABOUT THE TOPIC IS THAT I HAPPEN TO REPRESENT

AN AREA IN WHICH THERE ARE NEW YORK CITY WATERSHEDS ALL AROUND US,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AND GROUND WATER POLLUTION IS A PERVASIVE PROBLEM. AND ONE OF THE

KEY OBLIGATIONS THAT I FEEL THAT I HAVE IN REPRESENTING MY DISTRICT IS TO

ENSURE THAT WE DON'T DO ANYTHING FURTHER TO EXACERBATE THE PROBLEMS OF

GROUNDWATER POLLUTION. AND WHILE I DON'T KNOW WITH ANY CERTAINTY THAT

-- THAT THESE BYPRODUCTS ARE BEING USED ON OUR -- ON OUR HIGHWAYS OR

BYWAYS IN MY DISTRICT, I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM USED, AND SO

APPLAUD THE -- THE EFFORTS OF THE SPONSOR IN PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH AND

SAFETY BY PROHIBITING THEIR USE.

SO I WILL BE VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE, AND AGAIN, MY

THANKS TO THE SPEAKER, TO CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT AND TO THE SPONSOR IN

MOVING THIS FORWARD. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. GOODELL TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE, SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. AVAILABLE TO ALL OF

US AT OUR DESKS ON OUR COMPUTERS IS A COPY OF THE DEC REGULATIONS. SO

WE CAN ALL PULL THEM UP AT ANY TIME AND REVIEW THEM AND SEE WHAT

THEY ACTUALLY SAY. AND IF YOU ACTUALLY PULL UP THE DEC REGULATIONS

YOU'LL SEE THAT THE DEC ALREADY TESTS FOR BENZENE. THEY ALSO TEST FOR

ETHYLBENZENE ALONG WITH 13 CONTAMINANTS. YOU'LL ALSO FIND THAT WHILE

THE PERMIT MAY BE ISSUED FOR A MULTI-YEAR PERIOD, THE TESTING IS MUCH

MORE FREQUENT; IT'S ANNUAL. AND YOU'LL SEE THAT ROAD SPREADING AND

DRILLING FLUIDS AND FLOWBACK WATER OR ANYTHING THAT'S USED IN FRACKING IS

STRICTLY PROHIBITED. SO FOR THOSE WHO ARE ARGUING THAT WE SHOULD PASS

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THIS BILL TO PREVENT ROAD SPREADING AND DRILLING FLUIDS AND FLOWBACK,

THAT'S IRRELEVANT. THAT'S BEEN PROHIBITED FOR YEARS, AS MY COLLEAGUE

ACKNOWLEDGED. FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE USE OF SALT

BRINE ON ROADWAYS, AS MY COLLEAGUE FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY POINTED

OUT, SALT BRINE IS A MUCH, MUCH MORE EFFICIENT WAY OF ICE CONTROL THAN

ROCK SALT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SCATTER. IT CAN BE APPLIED IN A VERY PRECISE

MANNER, AND THE DEC REGULATIONS ARE VERY PRECISE IN HOW IT'S APPLIED,

THE EQUIPMENT THAT'S TO BE USED, EVEN THE TRAINING FOR OPERATORS. SO

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT,

IT'S ABOUT RAISING THE COSTS OF THE NATURAL GAS INDUSTRY IN NEW YORK

STATE. AND EVERY TIME YOU TURN ON YOUR STOVE OR ADJUST YOUR

THERMOSTAT IN THE WINTER AND SAY A LITTLE PRAYER TO GOD, THANK YOU THAT

MY FURNACE IS WORKING AND I HAVE CLEAN-BURNING NATURAL GAS,

REMEMBER, IN THIS STATE, WITH THIS LEGISLATION, WE DO EVERYTHING WE CAN

TO SHUT DOWN OUR LOCAL INDUSTRY AND RAISE THE COST TO CONSUMERS, AND

THAT -- FOR THAT REASON I WILL OPPOSE IT.

THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MS. KELLES TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. KELLES: I JUST WANTED TO BRIEFLY STATE AGAIN MY

APPRECIATION TO ALL THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS IN THIS GROUP. I DO BELIEVE

THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ENVIRONMENTAL BILL. AND THE ONLY THING

I WANTED TO ADD IS WHAT MY -- MY ESTEEMED COLLEAGUE SAID AND I

APPRECIATE. THERE'S A LIST OF 13 CHEMICALS THAT ARE TESTED, BENZENE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

BEING ONE, OF COURSE, THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE THAT I GAVE. THIRTEEN. WE

HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THERE ARE HUNDREDS TO THOUSANDS OF CHEMICALS THAT

ARE PART OF THE PROPRIETARY BLEND THAT ARE -- IS IN THE SOLUTION THAT IS

USED TO MAXIMIZE THE EFFICIENCY OF EXTRACTION OF NATURAL GAS. SO THE

ONLY THING THAT I WOULD SAY IS UNTIL GAS COMPANIES ARE WILLING TO GIVE

THE ENTIRE COMBINATION OF CHEMICALS THAT EXIST IN THE, QUOTE,

"PROPRIETARY BLENDS," THIS BILL SHOULD STAND AND THIS LAW IS IMPORTANT.

WHEN WE KNOW WHAT CHEMICALS, THEN WE CAN ADDRESS THOSE CHEMICALS.

IF WE DON'T KNOW, AND WE ALREADY KNOW THAT SOME THAT ARE USED ARE

EXTREMELY HARMFUL, THEN IT IS THE PRUDENT STEP TO SAY THAT IT CANNOT BE

USED TO SPREAD ON GROUND THAT WILL GUARANTEED SPREAD INTO THE ENTIRE

GROUNDWATER SYSTEM, THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE USED.

I THINK THIS IS A PRUDENT STEP AND I SUPPORT IT AND I

VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. KELLES IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER, FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I WANT TO THANK THE

SPONSOR FOR THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION. IT'S BEEN AROUND HERE FOR A WHILE,

MR. SPEAKER, AND I TRULY HOPE THAT THIS TIME IT'S ABLE TO GET TO THE FINISH

LINE. THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT -- YOU KNOW, I THINK EVERYTHING THAT WAS

CREATED IN THIS WORLD WHEN WE ALL ARRIVED HERE WAS PERFECT. AND IT IS

HERE FOR US TO USE, QUITE FRANKLY, INCLUDING NATURAL GAS. EVEN IF IT IS

UNDERGROUND, IT IS HERE FOR US TO USE. BUT IT'S ALSO INCUMBENT UPON US

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

TO FIGURE OUT WHAT DO WE NEED TO GET IT OUT AND WHATEVER WE USE TO GET

THAT OUT, HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT IT DOESN'T HARM US IN THE FUTURE.

THAT'S THE PART THAT WE HAVEN'T QUITE FIGURED OUT YET, AND WHEN WE GET

TO THAT PART IT WILL BE A LITTLE EASIER TO USE THIS BRINE WATER FOR WHATEVER

REASON. BUT FOR RIGHT NOW, UNTIL THE SCIENCE FIGURES THAT OUT I THINK

WE'RE MAKING THE RIGHT CALL HERE. AND I APPLAUD THE SPEAKER FOR

BRINGING THIS BILL TO THE FLOOR AND I APPLAUD THE SPONSOR FOR PUTTING IT

BEFORE US. AND I'M GRATEFUL AND HIGHLY IN FAVOR I FEEL TO BE ABLE TO

VOTE FOR IT.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES

IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. PLEASE RECORD THE

FOLLOWING REPUBLICAN MEMBERS IN THE AFFIRMATIVE ON THIS LEGISLATION:

MR. ASHBY, MR. BROWN, MR. MIKULIN, MR. MILLER, MRS. MILLER, MR.

MONTESANO, MR. RA, MR. SCHMITT AND MR. WALCZYK.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 17, CALENDAR NO. 181, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04302, CALENDAR NO.

181, ENGLEBRIGHT, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, KELLES, GRIFFIN, L. ROSENTHAL,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SIMON, BURDICK, COLTON, DICKENS, CRUZ, FAHY, EPSTEIN, GLICK. AN ACT

TO AMEND THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO

PROVIDING THAT 100 PERCENT OF IN-STATE SALES OF NEW PASSENGER CARS AND

TRUCKS SHALL BE ZERO-EMISSIONS BY 2035.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

CAN YOU HEAR ME?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: YES, SIR.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU AGAIN. THIS BILL IS

PURPOSED TO DECREASE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND AIR POLLUTION FROM

THE TRANSPORTATION SECTOR BY PROVIDING THAT 100 PERCENT OF IN-STATE

SALES OF NEW PASSENGER CARS AND TRUCKS SHALL BE ZERO-EMISSIONS BY,

RESPECTIVELY, 2035 AND 2045.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SMULLEN.

MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR KINDLY YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I JUST

WANTED TO -- TO GET TO THE -- THE HEART OF THE MATTER AND GET YOUR TAKE AS

-- AS THE AUTHOR OF THIS BILL ON WHAT DOES ZERO EMISSIONS MEAN IN THE

CONTEXT OF THIS BILL?

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: ZERO EMISSIONS MEANS THAT

WE WILL SEE ELECTRIC VEHICLES INSTEAD OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION

ENGINE-DRIVEN VEHICLES ON OUR ROADS.

MR. SMULLEN: I APPRECIATE THAT CLARITY, BECAUSE IT

ALSO MENTIONS IN THE BILL HYDROGEN VEHICLES. WOULD THEY BE

CONSIDERED ZERO EMISSIONS AS WELL?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YES. THE -- YOU'RE TALKING

ABOUT A DIFFERENT KIND OF COMBUSTION. THE BYPRODUCT OF COMBUSTING

HYDROGEN IS WATER. WATER IS NOT A PROBLEM.

MR. SMULLEN: CERTAINLY, AND I -- AND I APPRECIATE

IT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT'S WATER VAPOR. IT WOULD NOT

BE CARBON DIOXIDE, CARBON MONOXIDE OR ANY OF THE HOST OF OTHER

EMISSIONS THAT COME FROM THE INCOMPLETE COMBUSTION OF -- OF FOSSIL

FUEL.

MR. SMULLEN: SO, CERTAINLY. SO WE'RE MOSTLY

TALKING ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES, BATTERY-POWERED VEHICLES. BECAUSE,

YOU KNOW, HAVING SOME EXPERIENCE IN THE ENERGY AREA, HYDROGEN

VEHICLES HAVE NOT REALLY TAKEN OFF. THERE WAS A BIG PUSH ABOUT 20

YEARS AGO TO ENABLE HYDROGEN VEHICLES. IT'S LARGELY NOT COME TO

FRUITION. HOWEVER, THERE HAS BEEN LARGE-SCALE INVESTMENT IN BATTERY

TECHNOLOGY, WHICH -- WHICH MAY ENABLE ELECTRIC VEHICLES TO DO THAT.

SO, BASED ON THAT, THOUGH, ELECTRICITY COMES FROM SOMEWHERE. WHERE

DOES THE ELECTRICITY COME FROM IN NEW YORK TO -- THAT WOULD POWER THE

VEHICLES UNDERNEATH THIS BILL?

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, I'M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT

QUESTION BECAUSE THIS IS THE OTHER PART, REALLY, OF THE TWO MAIN THRUSTS

THAT ARE DERIVED FROM THE CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY

PROTECTION ACT. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT OF SAY OVER -- BECAUSE WE

REGULATE, WE HAVE A LOT OF SAY OVER HOW ELECTRICITY IS GENERATED. AND

THE CLCPA CALLS FOR SPECIFIC TARGETS FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY PRODUCTION

FROM SOLAR AND WIND. I GOT A TICKLE IN THE THROAT HERE. EXCUSE ME.

MR. SMULLEN: TAKE YOUR TIME, SIR. I -- I DON'T

MEAN TO GET YOU ALL CHOKED UP ABOUT THIS.

(LAUGHTER)

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: SO -- SO WE ARE ABLE TO

ANTICIPATE THAT ELECTRIC GENERATION WILL BE COMING FROM RENEWABLE

SOURCES, AND THAT THOSE RENEWABLE SOURCES, IN TURN, WILL -- WILL BE THE

SOURCE OF ELECTRICAL POWER FOR RECHARGING. WE JUST HEARD A DEBATE

ABOUT THE NEED FOR RECHARGING STATIONS. THAT IS ANOTHER PART OF THIS

OVERALL STRATEGY.

MR. SMULLEN: SURE. AND I'M CERTAINLY IN FAVOR OF

A MARKET-BASED APPROACH TOWARDS A TRANSITION TOWARDS BETTER

TECHNOLOGY WHICH USES LESS ENERGY. BUT CURRENTLY, YOU KNOW, WE'VE

GOT A BASKET OF -- OF ENERGY SOURCES IN NEW YORK. PRIMARILY IT'S

NUCLEAR, WHICH IS ABOUT 20 PERCENT. AND THERE'S HYDROELECTRIC

FACILITIES, PRIMARILY LEGACY DAMS THAT DOES ANOTHER 20 PERCENT. AND

THEN WE'VE GOT NATURAL GAS TURBINES WHICH PROVIDE QUITE A BIT OF IT.

AND THEN WE'VE GOT WIND AND SOLAR WHICH CURRENTLY DON'T PROVIDE VERY

MUCH, BUT WE'RE HOPEFUL THAT THEY'LL GET TO A HIGHER LEVEL. SO, YOU

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

KNOW, ESSENTIALLY, WHAT I'M -- WHAT I'M QUESTIONING ON THIS IS THE

OVERALL STRATEGY TO BEGIN WITH, WHICH IS ZERO EMISSIONS MEANS VEHICLES

THAT DON'T POLLUTE. BUT THE ELECTRICITY THAT COMES FROM SOMEWHERE

MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE IN ORDER TO BE USEFUL, TO -- TO MOVE PEOPLE

AND THINGS IN THEIR CARS. WHAT IS THE TRANSMISSION COST IN THAT REGARD?

WHAT IS THE TRANSMISSION COST FROM PRODUCING WHATEVER SOURCE - A

NUCLEAR FACILITY IN OSWEGO - TO A CAR CHARGING STATION 100 MILES AWAY?

IS IT -- DO YOU LOSE 30 PERCENT? DO YOU LOSE 20 PERCENT? ABOUT HOW

MUCH ENERGY DO WE LOSE FROM A CARBON STANDPOINT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T HAVE THAT FIGURE.

MR. SMULLEN: I -- I THINK IT'S -- I THINK IT'S VERY

IMPORTANT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SOME FIGURES -- IT'S NOT 100 PERCENT,

THAT'S FOR SURE. SO WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE -- WE'RE -- WE'RE CREATING

ENERGY FROM SOME SOURCE, INCLUDING SOME FROM SOME FOSSIL FUELS

TODAY, AND WE'RE TRYING TO GET IT TO BE SOMETHING USEFUL, ENERGY FOR

PEOPLE TO GO ABOUT THEIR LIVES, CONDUCT COMMERCE. BECAUSE THIS BILL

APPLIES TO NOT ONLY COMMERCIAL CARS AND TRUCKS, BUT BY 2045 WE HOPE

IT APPLY ALSO TO HEAVY-DUTY TRUCKS. AND I'M SURE SOME OF MY

COLLEAGUES WILL -- WILL WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE AGRICULTURE

IMPLICATIONS OF THAT. WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE THIS LAW, THIS GOAL, APPLY TO

THINGS SUCH AS TRAINS AND SHIPS, WHICH ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO NEW

YORK'S COMMERCE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: ONE STEP AT A TIME. WE, IN

FACT, ARE STARTING TO MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION CONCEPTUALLY. A BIG STORY IN

YESTERDAY'S NEWSDAY REGARDING THE ANTICIPATED MOVE TOWARD BATTERY-

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

OPERATED TRAINS ON THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD. YOU MAY ALSO BE AWARE

THAT WHEN THE CLCPA WAS PASSED THAT THE MTA WAS -- THE LONG

ISLAND RAILROAD IN SPECIFIC WAS IN THE MIDST OF ACQUIRING 57 NEW DIESEL

LOCOMOTIVES. WE HAD PRESS CONFERENCES INDICATING THAT THAT WOULD BE

CONTRARY TO THE NEW LAW, AND REALLY RAISED MANY QUESTIONS THAT HAS

HELPED PUT THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD ON NOTICE THAT THEY ARE NOT EXEMPT

FROM THESE SAME GOALS THAT WE'RE SPEAKING OF. AND TO THEIR CREDIT,

THEY'RE BEGINNING TO EXPLORE BATTERY-OPERATED TRAINS.

MR. SMULLEN: SURE. AND AS PART OF THE ANALYSIS

OF THIS BILL, DID YOU INCLUDE THE COST PER TON FOR MOVING COMMERCE INTO

THE EQUATION WHICH, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY SHIPS ARE THE MOST EFFICIENT

BECAUSE YOU CAN FIT A LOT OF STUFF IN A SHIP. RAILROADS ARE THE NEXT MOST

EFFICIENT. TRUCKS ARE THE NEXT MOST EFFICIENT, AND THEN PASSENGER

VEHICLES ARE, YOU KNOW, THE LEAST EFFICIENT FROM A CARBON COST. WHAT IS

THE COST PER TON FOR NEW YORK, AND WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IT TO BE IN 2035

AND THEN, RESPECTIVELY, IN 2045? WILL IT BE MORE OR WILL IT BE LESS THAN

IT IS TODAY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING

WHAT SPECIFIC MARKET REALITIES WILL BE IN FUTURE YEARS. THAT'S A

SPECULATION THAT IS INTELLECTUALLY INTERESTING. IF YOU HAVE SOME FIGURES

I'D BE INTERESTED IN HEARING YOUR FIGURES. BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT

THE COSTS OF DOING NOTHING ARE UNACCEPTABLE. THE COSTS TO OUR SOCIETY

OF CLIMATE CHANGE IS ENORMOUS, AND IT IS PAID BY COSTS TO OUR PUBLIC

HEALTH, THE GENERAL ENVIRONMENT, AND IN EVERY WAY TO THE OPERATION OF

OUR COMMUNITIES. SO -- SO OVERWHELMING ARE THE NEGATIVE COSTS FROM

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

CLIMATE CHANGE THAT -- THAT IT EXCEEDS OUR ABILITY TO CALCULATE IT

ACCURATELY, EVEN TODAY. WE DO KNOW, THOUGH, THAT THERE ARE STORM

CLEANUP COSTS, EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS, CROP LOSSES AND PUBLIC HEALTH

IMPACTS THAT ARE -- THAT ARE MANY TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS PER YEAR.

MR. SMULLEN: CERTAINLY. SO YOU DESCRIBED IT

ACTUALLY IN THE BILL INTRODUCTION THAT THIS IS A GOAL FOR NEW YORK STATE.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY BASED ON SCIENCE WHERE THERE'S A HYPOTHESIS. HOW

-- HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET FROM THE AS IS OF TODAY TO THE TO BE OF 2035

AND 2045 IF THE SCIENCE OF BATTERY TECHNOLOGY DOESN'T SUPPORT YOUR GOAL

OR YOUR HYPOTHESIS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: LET ME BE CLEAR. YOU STATED

THAT THIS WAS NOT BASED ON SCIENCE. IN FACT, IT IS BASED ON SCIENCE. BUT

IT IS NOT ABUSIVELY FORCEFUL OR SUDDEN. INSTEAD OF BEING A

COMMANDMENT, THIS LEGISLATION IS ASPIRATIONAL AND GRADUAL.

MR. SMULLEN: I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT. BECAUSE

ONE OF THE THINGS I NOTICED THAT YOU MENTION SPECIFICALLY IN THE BILL FOR

THE DEC TO DO IS TO BE TO COORDINATE WITH THE U.S. EPA. I THINK THEY

ALREADY DO THAT TODAY. BUT WHY DIDN'T YOU INCLUDE A PROVISION TO

REQUIRE THEM TO COORDINATE WITH THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, WHICH

IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ENERGY EFFICIENCY, THE NATIONAL LABORATORY SYSTEM,

WHICH THEY HAVE THE PORTFOLIO IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT FOR THESE, YOU

KNOW, THESE SORTS OF TECHNOLOGIES. WHY NOT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF

ENERGY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THEY CAN -- THEY CAN

COORDINATE, OF COURSE, WITH ANY OF THE FEDERAL AGENCIES. THE ONE THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THEY ARE MOST CLOSELY SIMILAR TO IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

AGENCY AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL. THERE IS CROSSOVER, OF COURSE, AS WE SEE

EVEN IN NEW YORK, BETWEEN AGENCIES DEALING WITH HEALTH AND PARKS

AND ENERGY. SO THE ENVIRONMENT IS A TOPIC THAT IS MULTI-DIMENSIONAL

AND, OF COURSE, IT DOES MAKE SENSE, AS YOU RIGHTLY SUGGEST, FOR THE DEC

TO SPEAK TO AND COORDINATE WITH AS MANY SOURCES OF KNOWLEDGE AS

POSSIBLE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, CERTAINLY. BUT I WOULD

RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT THAT THE EPA IS A PUNISHER, IT'S A REGULATOR. IT

COMPELS PEOPLE TO DO THINGS, WHEREAS THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

ACTUALLY HAS AN INNOVATION ARM WHICH COULD BE THE -- THE KEY TO SOME

SORT OF MORE ENTREPRENEURIAL APPROACH TO REACHING THIS GOAL WITHOUT

BEING PUNITIVE IN -- IN HOW WE APPLY THE LAWS IN NEW YORK STATE.

JUST A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS. I -- I APPRECIATE YOUR --

YOUR FORBEARANCE HERE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE EPA SETS THE STANDARD

FOR VEHICLES. THIS IS A PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT SPECIFICALLY DEALS WITH

VEHICLES. SO IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE PRIMARY CONTACT TO BE BETWEEN

THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AT THE

STATE LEVEL AND THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY AT THE NATIONAL

LEVEL.

MR. SMULLEN: NO DOUBT. WE KNOW HOW

REGULATORS REGULATE --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YOU KNOW, WE -- WITH AIR

CONTAMINATION LEVELS.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. SMULLEN: MOST CERTAINLY. AND WE KNOW HOW

THE REGULATORS REGULATE. WE ALSO KNOW HOW INNOVATORS INNOVATE. I -- I

WOULD ARGUE THAT THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY PROBLEM IN NEED OF A VERY

SOPHISTICATED SOLUTION AS OPPOSED TO A PUBLIC POLICY REGULATORY

SCHEME. BUT I -- I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT AND I -- I -- I

APPRECIATE IT.

HOW MANY CARS ARE PRODUCED IN NEW YORK EACH

YEAR?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DO NOT HAVE THAT FIGURE.

MR. SMULLEN: I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW OF ANY MAJOR

CAR MANUFACTURERS. SO, WE'RE -- WE'RE TELLING PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE GOING

TO HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN KIND OF CAR --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT FIGURES,

BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF VEHICLES THAT ARE

PURCHASED EACH YEAR. WE CAN ALL SEE THEM IN OUR OWN COMMUNITIES.

THEY ARE MIXED IN WITH VEHICLES FROM EARLIER YEARS, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF

NEW VEHICLES ON THE ROAD.

MR. SMULLEN: THERE CERTAINLY ARE. THE AVERAGE

AGE IS SOMEWHERE AROUND 20 YEARS, SO WE'RE ACTUALLY INSIDE THE

WINDOW NOW FOR CARS THAT WILL BE ON THE ROAD TODAY WILL STILL BE ON THE

ROAD IN 2035. AND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A VARIOUS MIX OF VEHICLES.

AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT. I -- I THANK YOU VERY

MUCH. I KNOW WE'RE RUNNING SHORT ON TIME.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER BENEDETTO: ON THE BILL.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. SMULLEN: SO I REALLY GET AND I REALLY

UNDERSTAND WHAT THE GOAL OF THIS BILL IS, AND IT'S -- IT'S A LAUDABLE GOAL,

IT'S A NOBLE GOAL. BUT RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT SUPPORTED BY THE TECHNOLOGY

THAT WOULD ALLOW IT TO BE ACTUALIZED AT THE LEVEL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THE CLCPA HAS TARGETS FOR ELECTRICITY GENERATION. NOW THIS TARGET FOR

ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLES ARE EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE TO THE POINT WHERE

THEY'RE ALMOST NOT ACHIEVABLE FROM THE -- FROM THE CURRENT BASIS OF

TECHNOLOGY, FROM THE AS-IS SITUATION WHERE WE ARE NOW TO THE TO-BE

WHERE WE WANT TO BE IN THE FUTURE. AND THAT'S A -- THAT'S A BIT

WORRISOME BECAUSE IT SENDS A WRONG SIGNAL TO THE MARKET. NOT ONLY TO

THE PEOPLE WHO BUY VEHICLES, BUT TO -- BUT TO THE COMPANIES THAT CREATE

THOSE VEHICLES. AND I KNOW THE HOPE OF IT IS IS THAT THERE WILL BE A

TECHNICAL BREAKTHROUGH TO ENABLE THIS. AND I'M HOPEFUL AS WELL. BUT I

WAS ALSO IN THE MARINE CORPS WHERE HOPE IS NEVER A COURSE OF ACTION,

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO WHERE I AM TODAY IN THE NEW YORK STATE

ASSEMBLY WHERE GOOD PUBLIC POLICY SHOULD BE SET ON -- ON -- ON THE

FACTUAL BASIS OF WHAT NOT ONLY THE INDUSTRY BUT THE -- THE -- THE STATE,

WHAT IT IS TODAY. AND FOR THAT REASON I'M NOT VERY HOPEFUL THAT THIS BILL

IS ANYTHING BUT AN ASPIRATIONAL DOCUMENT AND IT WON'T BECOME ANYTHING

BUT A DUSTY TOME ON A SHELF SOME DAY IF THERE'S SOME OTHER TECHNOLOGY

THAT CAN THEN CHANGE THE EQUATION FOR US THAT WE WOULD -- SO HOPE FOR

TO REDUCE OUR CARBON FOOTPRINT IN NEW YORK TO BE ABLE TO ALLOW US TO

GO ABOUT OUR BUSINESS. TO USE ENERGY AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE TO DO

ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE, AS NEW YORKERS, WE, AS AMERICANS, WHAT WE

CHOOSE AND WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH OUR LIVES IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SO FOR THAT REASON, I APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S INTENTION

BUT I URGE ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES TO VOTE AGAINST THIS BILL BECAUSE IT'S NOT

GOING TO MEET THE LONG-TERM ASPIRATIONS THAT IT INTENDS. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER BENEDETTO: WELL-TIMED,

SIR. THANK YOU.

MR. MANKTELOW.

MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR JUST A FEW QUESTIONS, PLEASE?

ACTING SPEAKER BENEDETTO: WILL YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT.

JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS. I'VE LOOKED OVER THE BILL AND I'M -- I'M GETTING

MORE AND MORE FAMILIAR WITH SOLAR POWER AS IT'S BEING PUT UP IN OUR --

IN OUR LOCAL DISTRICTS BACK HOME. ONE OF MY THOUGHTS HERE IS I SEE

NOTHING IN THE BILL THAT'S GOING TO ADDRESS THE INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT WHAT IS

THE PLAN FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR WHAT?

MR. MANKTELOW: WELL, IF WE'RE GOING TO NEED

ALL THIS POWER FOR THESE VEHICLES --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE

GENERATION OF ELECTRIC POWER, THE PLAN FOR THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IS OUTLINED

IN THE CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY PROTECTION ACT WITH A

SERIES OF GOALS THAT ARE NOW BLACK LETTER LAW THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE BY

CERTAIN DATES, AND THAT IS INTENDED TO REPLACE FOSSIL FUEL SOURCES.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND -- AND I THANK YOU FOR THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ANSWER.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: (INAUDIBLE).

MR. MANKTELOW: AND I AGREE WITH THAT AS WE

TRY TO MOVE FORWARD. BUT -- BUT YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION.

MY QUESTION IS, WHAT IS -- HOW ARE WE GOING TO FUND ALL THIS

INFRASTRUCTURE? HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET THE POWER TO THE LOCATIONS

THAT NEED IT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

RECHARGING STATIONS?

MR. MANKTELOW: NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE SOLAR

PROJECTS, THE NUCLEAR PLANTS, THE -- THE WIND TURBINES. YOU'RE GOING TO

WANT ALL THIS POWER TO GO TO WHERE THE CHARGING STATIONS ARE. HOW

(INAUDIBLE) ARE WE GOING TO GET THE POWER TO THOSE LOCATIONS, AND THEN

WHO'S GOING TO FUND THAT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE ALREADY HAVE A

DISTRIBUTION NETWORK OF ELECTRIC CAPACITY THROUGHOUT THE STATE. WE

WOULD -- WE WOULD CONTINUE TO USE THAT DISTRIBUTION NETWORK, AND I

BELIEVE THAT WE WILL SEE MANY OF OUR PLACES SUCH AS STOPS ON THE

THRUWAY AND GAS STATIONS AND PARKING AREAS NEXT TO MUNICIPAL

BUILDINGS WIRED INTO THAT SAME EXISTING NETWORK SO THAT ELECTRIC

VEHICLES CAN BE QUICKLY RECHARGED.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND -- AND I APPLAUD YOU FOR

THAT. I THINK THAT'S -- THAT'S VERY APPROPRIATE TO THE BILL. BUT GOING BACK

TO MY QUESTION. I KNOW THAT EVEN IN MY LOCAL MUNICIPALITY WHEN I WAS

A TOWN SUPERVISOR, WE TRIED TO SITE A SOLAR PROJECT ON ONE OF OUR CLOSED

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

LANDFILLS, AND THERE WAS NO THREE-PHASE WIRING ALONG THE ROADS TO DO

THAT. AND THE COST TO GET THE THREE-PHASE WIRING THERE, TO GET IT BACK TO

THE MUNICIPALITIES THAT USE ELECTRIC WAS ASTRONOMICAL. JUST TRYING TO

PUT INTERNET ACCESS IN UPSTATE NEW YORK IN THE RURAL AREAS IS AT LEAST

$20,000 A MILE. THAT'S FOR ONE SMALL LINE. AND HERE WE'RE TALKING

ABOUT A HUGE EXPANSION OF -- OF MOVING OF ELECTRICITY. AND IN MY

HOME DISTRICT A WEEK AGO I WAS OUT AT ONE OF THE LOCATIONS. IT'S

APPROXIMATELY 2,400 ACRES OF FARMLAND, PRODUCEABLE FARMLAND THAT

THEY'RE USING RIGHT NOW THAT WILL GO INTO A SOLAR PROJECT THAT'S -- THAT

WILL BE DONE IN A FEW YEARS. AND THEY'RE LOOKING TO EXPAND THAT. WE

HAVE THE 345 HIGH POWER LINES GOING THROUGH OUR DISTRICT, AND THAT'S

HOW THEY'RE SITING THEM, ALONG THOSE LINES TO GET THAT POWER TO MOVE,

AND THAT POWER WILL BE GOING DOWNSTATE. SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT

WE HAVE LOCALLY IS AS WE SITE THESE SOLAR PROJECTS, YOU KNOW, THE RUNOFF

OF THESE SOLAR PROJECTS, WE TALKED ON THE PREVIOUS BILL ABOUT, YOU KNOW,

SOME OF THE CONTAMINANTS. AND I KNOW IN TALKING WITH THE RESIDENTS,

THEY'RE CONCERNED WITH MILES AND MILES AND ACRES AND ACRES OF SOLAR

PANELS, WHAT CONTAMINANTS ARE GOING COME UP TO THOSE SOLAR PANELS?

WHERE IS THAT WATER GOING TO GO? IS IT GOING TO CONTAMINATE THEIR

WATER? AND THEIR BIGGER CONCERN IS THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH

LOOKING AT THESE HUGE SOLAR FARMS AND THE POWER IS GOING DOWNSTATE.

IF THEY HAD SOME POWER COMING TO THEM THAT WOULD BE SOMEWHAT

ACCEPTABLE OR AT LEAST CONSIDERED, BUT IT -- BUT IT'S NOT HAPPENING. AND

I JUST THINK THAT WE'RE PUTTING THE -- THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE HERE. WE

NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE ABLE TO PUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

GET THE POWER TO MOVE.

ANOTHER QUESTION, BEING -- BEING A FORMER FARMER, AND

I KNOW THAT IN THIS BILL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, OFF ROAD DOWN

THE ROAD. BUT WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON -- ON AGRICULTURAL EQUIPMENT?

HOW DO WE HANDLE THAT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I THINK THE MARKET WILL BRING

ELECTRIC VEHICLES INTO THE REALM OF FARM VEHICLES. JUST AS I MENTIONED A

SHORT WHILE AGO, THERE'S DISCUSSION, VERY SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT

MOVING TOWARD BATTERY-OPERATED LOCOMOTIVES. IT IS NOT AT ALL DIFFICULT

TO IMAGINE THAT ON A MUCH SMALLER SCALE, BATTERY-OPERATED FARM

EQUIPMENT, COMBINES, HARVESTERS AND TRACTORS WILL ALSO BE VERY -- VERY

COMPETITIVE. I JUST WANT TO ALSO WHILE I'M ANSWERING THIS MENTION THAT

GENERAL MOTORS AND VOLKSWAGON AND DAIMLER, THE PARENT COMPANY OF

MERCEDES-BENZ, THESE -- THESE ARE ALL GIANT VEHICLE MANUFACTURERS.

THEY HAVE ALL ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WILL BEGIN MANUFACTURING ZERO-

EMISSION VEHICLES EXCLUSIVELY. AND SO IT WILL BE TO THEIR INTEREST TO

PROVIDE SIMILAR AVAILABILITY OF ELECTRIC POWER AND FARM EQUIPMENT AS

WELL. YOUR -- YOUR POINT AS TO WHETHER THE ELECTRICITY CAN GET TO THE

SITE WHERE IT CAN BE ABSORBED INTO A BATTERY FOR USE IS A -- IS A GOOD

QUESTION, BUT THIS ISN'T 1920. WE'RE NOT ANTICIPATING THE NEED TO BUILD

OUT AN ELECTRIC GRID BEFORE THERE WAS A TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY, FOR

EXAMPLE. AND WE -- WE NOW HAVE A LARGE PART OF THAT GRID. WILL IT

NEED TO BE ADDED TO SOMEWHAT? NO DOUBT, YES. BUT THE -- THE CORE OF

THE GRID IS ALREADY THERE AND WE CAN CONTINUE TO USE IT.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO YOU DON'T SEE ANY HUGE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

EXPANSIONS OF POWER TRANSMISSION LINES IN NEW YORK STATE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID THAT

WE HAVE THE CORE OF A SYSTEM THAT IS FAR ADVANCED. I MEAN, IF WE WERE

HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW, IN 1920, IT WOULD BE A VERY

DIFFERENT LEVEL OF UNCERTAINTY. THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF CERTAINTY AS TO

THE AVAILABILITY OF ELECTRICITY FLOWING TO OUR COMMUNITIES. THE

QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT ELECTRICITY IS GENERATED BY RENEWABLE SOURCES

IS A QUESTION THAT WE'VE ALREADY BEGUN TO ANSWER VERY SPECIFICALLY WITH

THE CLCPA, THE CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY PROTECTION ACT.

MR. MANKTELOW: YOU KEEP GOING BACK TO THAT

ACT, AND -- AND IN THAT ACT, DOES IT TALK ABOUT PROVIDING FUNDS TO BUILD

ANY OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT DOESN'T PROVIDE FUNDS. IT'S

NOT A BILL THAT PROVIDES FUNDS. IT'S A BILL THAT SETS GOALS AND TARGETS.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. THANK YOU, SIR. I KNOW

MANY OF US TRAVEL UP AND DOWN THE NEW YORK STATE THRUWAY COMING

TO AND FROM ALBANY, AND ON OUR THRUWAY I'M SO THANKFUL FOR THE -- THE

TRUCK DRIVERS AND THE PEOPLE THAT MOVE OUR PRODUCTS UP AND DOWN THE

THRUWAY. I SEE IN THE BILL ALSO WE'RE LOOKING TO -- LOOK TO ADDRESS THIS

WITH HEAVY TRUCKS. ARE YOU LOOKING TO GO COMPLETELY ELECTRIC WITH

HEAVY TRUCKS AS WELL IN NEW YORK STATE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YES. THE BILL ANTICIPATES THAT

BY THE YEAR 2045 THAT WE WILL HAVE TRUCKS, INCLUDING THE LARGER TRUCKS

THAT WE SEE ON THE HIGHWAYS, USING THE SAME BASIC MODALITY OF POWER

GENERATION. THAT IS TO SAY ELECTRIC VEHICLES WILL BE SCALED FOR THE USE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

FOR THOSE LARGER WORKHORSE KINDS OF VEHICLES AS WELL.

MR. MANKTELOW: WILL THE CONVENTIONAL DIESEL

ENGINE BE -- STILL BE ALLOWED TO BE SOLD IN NEW YORK STATE IN 2020 -- OR

2045?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: AFTER 2045, ALL NEW IN-STATE

SALES WOULD BE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: BY THAT YEAR IT WOULD BE ALL

PASSENGER CARS AND ALL TRUCKS.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. SO --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT DOESN'T MEAN, THOUGH --

JUST TO BE CLEAR, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IF YOU HAVE A VEHICLE THAT YOU

BOUGHT IN -- IN AN EARLIER YEAR THAT YOU COULD NOT USE IT. BUT WHEN THAT

VEHICLE WOULD BE WORN OUT OVER ITS USEFUL LIFE IT WOULD BE REPLACED

WHEN YOU BUY A NEW ONE WITH AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE. AND SO THAT'S THE

PURPOSE OF THE BILL. NO PUN INTENDED, BUT IN A GAS PEDAL AND CLUTCH

KIND OF WAY, WE WOULD EASE IN THE USE OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND EASE OUT

THE DOMINANCE THAT WE SEE NOW OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE-DRIVEN

VEHICLES.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO, COMPANIES COMING FROM

OTHER STATES WOULD STILL BE ALLOWED TO COME INTO NEW YORK STATE WITH

THEIR CONVENTIONAL TRUCKS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT'S CORRECT. WE CANNOT AT

THE STATE LEVEL REGULATE INTERSTATE COMMERCE LIKE THAT. BUT WE CAN SET

AN EXAMPLE FOR OUR NEIGHBORS, AND OVER TIME I THINK THAT IT WILL

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

BECOME INCREASINGLY CLEAR THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE IS AN UPFRONT

PURCHASE PRICE FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES, AT LEAST IN THE PRESENT MARKET THAT

IS SOMEWHAT HIGHER, OVER TIME THERE ARE HUGE COST SAVINGS. YOU DON'T

HAVE TO BUY GASOLINE, FOR EXAMPLE. IT'S A LOT CHEAPER TO RECHARGE THE

BATTERY THAN IT IS TO BUY A TANK OF GASOLINE.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW

MUCH TIME I HAVE LEFT, BUT ONE OF THE LAST QUESTIONS I HAVE IS, YOU

KNOW, TALKING WITH SOME OF THE TRUCKING INDUSTRY -- TRUCKING

COMPANIES, AND ONE OF MY CONCERNS IS IF WE TRANSITION OVER TO ONLY

SELLING ELECTRIC TRUCKS IN NEW YORK STATE, HEAVY-DUTY TRUCKS, THAT WHAT

I THINK WILL HAPPEN IS YOU'LL SEE THESE COMPANIES GO OUT OF STATE, BUY

THEIR VEHICLES OUT OF STATE, SEND THEIR BUSINESS OUT OF STATE. REGISTER --

YORK STATE. SO WE COULD HAVE THE POSSIBLE LOST REVENUE OF OTHER

REGISTRATIONS, THE LICENSES AND ALL THAT MOVING FORWARD. AND ANY GOOD

BUSINESS PERSON IS GOING TO TRANSITION VERY SLOWLY. SO I CAN SEE THAT

HAPPENING AS WE DO THIS. BUT AGAIN, JUST LIKE IN THE MILITARY, JUST LIKE

MY COLLEAGUE SAID EARLIER AS A MARINE, ME AS AN ARMY GUY, WE'RE ONLY

AS GOOD AS THE PEOPLE BEHIND US BRINGING US THE SUPPLIES, GETTING THE --

THE MAIN GUN ROUNDS TO US, GETTING OUR FOOD TO US, OUR WATER, OUR FUEL.

BUT WE -- I SEE THIS BEING THE STUMBLING BLOCK HERE. AND THE OTHER

THING THAT I SEE IS, AGAIN, THE INDUSTRIES, AS YOU SAID, GM, CADILLAC,

TESLA, THEY'RE ALREADY MOVING FORWARD WITH ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND

MAKING THAT HAPPEN. SO WHY ON EARTH DO WE NEED ANOTHER PIECE OF

LEGISLATION TO MAKE SURE THIS HAPPENS? IT ALREADY IS HAPPENING. AND

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AGAIN, I THINK SOMETIMES WE, AS GOVERNMENT, SEND THE WRONG MESSAGE,

OVERSTEPPING OUR BOUNDS WHEN OUR -- OUR PRIVATE INDUSTRIES AND OUR

BUSINESSES ARE ALREADY DOING THIS. LET THEM GROW. LET'S OFFER THEM TAX

INCENTIVES TO PRODUCE ELECTRIC VEHICLES IN WAYS IN THE FUTURE INSTEAD OF

COMING UP WITH A WAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IT.

SO, I THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, SIR, AND MR. SPEAKER,

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER BENEDETTO: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. MANKTELOW: AS WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT

HERE THIS MORNING, I'M ALL FOR THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES. I LOVE THE CLEAN

ENERGY. I LOVE HOW QUICK THEY ARE. I THINK TWO YEARS AGO THERE WAS

ELECTRIC DRAGSTERS DOWN ON THE CONCOURSE THAT WERE ON DISPLAY, IF I

REMEMBER RIGHT. AND I REALLY WANTED TO GET IN ONE AND GO DOWN THE

CONCOURSE, BUT THAT PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE A WISE MOVE. BUT ANYWAY,

WE ARE MOVING FORWARD AS A SOCIETY. WE ARE MOVING FORWARD AS A

COUNTRY. WE ARE MOVING FORWARD AS -- AS A WORLD, MR. SPEAKER. AND

WE ARE MAKING THIS HAPPEN WITHOUT PIECES OF LEGISLATION TO DO THAT.

AND I JUST, AGAIN, HAVE CONCERN THAT WE'VE TIGHTENED UP THE PARAMETERS

SO QUICKLY AND DO NOT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE THERE AND IT'S GOING TO BE

OVER COST. YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO DO THIS. AND AGAIN, I JUST THINK WE ARE

-- WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. AND LET'S LET OUR PRIVATE

INDUSTRY DO THIS. LET'S -- LET'S GIVE THEM INCENTIVES TO DO THIS AND WE

CAN ACCOMPLISH THIS IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND IN MY EYES A BETTER WAY.

SO THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING ME TO

EXPAND ON THE BILL. I'D LOVE TO SUPPORT THIS BILL, BUT IT'S -- IT'S A LITTLE TOO

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

GRAY RIGHT NOW FOR ME. SO I'LL BE ASKING MY COLLEAGUES NOT TO AS WELL.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER BENEDETTO: THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER BENEDETTO: HE YIELDS.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

ENGLEBRIGHT. I KNOW THAT YOU STATED THAT THIS BILL IS ASPIRATIONAL, AND

INDEED, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH KEEPS SAYING IT'S THE GOAL OF THE STATE TO BE

100 PERCENT ZERO EMISSION. IT'S A FURTHER GOAL FOR NOT ONLY CARS BUT FOR

MEDIUM- AND HEAVY-DUTY TRUCKS. BUT I'M MORE CONCERNED WITH THE

LANGUAGE IN THE BILL THAT STARTS ON PAGE 1, LINE 16 WHICH SAYS THAT THE

DEC SHALL DEVELOP AND PROPOSE PASSENGER VEHICLE AND TRUCK

REGULATIONS REQUIRING INCREASING VOLUMES OF NEW ZERO-EMISSION

VEHICLES OFFERED FOR SALE OR LEASE OR SOLD OR LEASED FOR REGISTRATION IN

NEW YORK STATE. AND THE WORD "REQUIRING" IS NOT ASPIRATIONAL, RIGHT?

IT'S A -- IT'S A MANDATE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT IS A REQUIREMENT. WE ARE

ANTICIPATING THAT THERE WILL BE A NEED FOR SOME OVERSIGHT. THIS ISN'T

JUST A HOPE, BUT IN FACT, IS A -- A PROGRAM THAT MOVES TOWARD GOALS THAT

ARE, INDEED, ASPIRATIONAL BUT THAT THEY ARE PRODDED ALONG. THIS IS A

MULTI-YEAR, MULTI-DECADE, REALLY, COMMITMENT. AND THE ROLE OF THE

DEPARTMENT IS IMPORTANT TO THE EVENTUAL OUTCOME THAT ALLOWS US TO

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

HAVE LESS VEHICLE EMISSIONS.

MR. GOODELL: I APPRECIATE THAT -- THE DESIRE.

NOW THIS SAYS SPECIFICALLY THAT THIS WOULD APPLY TO VEHICLES SOLD OR

LEASED FOR REGISTRATION IN THE STATE. SO IS IT YOUR INTENT THAT THIS SHOULD

APPLY TO VEHICLES, SAY, PURCHASED IN PENNSYLVANIA AND NEW JERSEY,

CONNECTICUT OR ANY OF OUR NEIGHBORING STATES IF THOSE NEW VEHICLES

WERE SUBSEQUENTLY THEN REGISTERED IN NEW YORK STATE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: NO. THAT -- THAT IS

CONVOLUTED. MY GOAL IS VERY SPECIFIC. IT'S OUTLINED CLEARLY. IT IS FOR

SALES OF PASSENGER VEHICLES AND TRUCKS IN OUR STATE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, THE LATEST DATA I SAW

INDICATED THAT NEW YORK STATE CURRENTLY HAS ABOUT 11.3 MILLION CARS.

AND AN ANALYSIS BASED ON CURRENT MANUFACTURING REQUIREMENTS WOULD

INDICATE THAT IF WE WERE TO CONVERT ALL 11.3 MILLION CARS TO ELECTRIC

VEHICLES, WE WOULD NEED TO USE 60 PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S ENTIRE

PRODUCTION OF COBALT JUST FOR NEW YORK STATE. THIRTY PERCENT OF ALL THE

NEODYMIUM - I THINK I MISPRONOUNCED THAT - 25 PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S

ENTIRE PRODUCTION OF LITHIUM, 15 PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S ENTIRE

PRODUCTION FOR COPPER. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW IT IS THAT THOSE

SUPPLY CHAIN RESTRICTIONS CAN BE ACCOMMODATED IF NEW YORK ISN'T THE

ONLY ONE THAT'S MOVING TOWARD ALL ELECTRIC VEHICLES?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: CLEARLY, THERE'S GOING TO BE A

TRANSITION THAT WILL TAKE PLACE. THE MINING ACTIVITIES THAT ARE REQUIRED,

THE SOURCING OF THE RARE EARTH AND MINERALS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE

DONE GRADUALLY. FORTUNATELY, TIME TO ACCOMPLISH THAT IS ALLOWABLE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

WITHIN THE TIME FRAME THAT IS OUTLINED IN THE BILL.

MR. GOODELL: CURRENTLY, AS YOU KNOW --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE MARKET WILL RESPOND.

AND THERE ARE SOURCES, IF THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WE HAD TO HAVE READY

BY TOMORROW MORNING, IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.

MR. GOODELL: CERTAINLY. CERTAINLY,

ENVIRONMENTALISTS ARE ALSO DEEPLY, DEEPLY CONCERNED OVER THE HORRIFIC

ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE THAT'S CAUSED BY THE MINING OF ALL THESE

MATERIALS. DOES THIS BILL CONTEMPLATE OR EVALUATE OR QUANTIFY THE

INCREDIBLE ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINT THAT'S INVOLVED IN CONVERTING 11.3

MILLION CARS TO ALL ELECTRIC VEHICLES? IS THERE ANYTHING ON THAT -- IN

OTHER WORDS, IS THERE ANY REQUIREMENT THAT THE RARE EARTHS, SOME COME

ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY FROM CHINA, BE MINED IN A ZERO-EMISSION MANNER

OR CONSISTENT WITH U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE MANUFACTURERS THAT I

MENTIONED BEFORE, GENERAL MOTORS, VOLKSWAGON, DAIMLER, ET CETERA,

THEY KNOW THEIR MARKETS. THEY HAVE ALREADY INDICATED THAT THEY'RE

GOING TO BE MANUFACTURING ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLES EXCLUSIVELY. I

ANTICIPATE THAT THAT IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO

ACCESS THESE MATERIALS FOR THE BATTERIES. I SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT THE

EVOLUTION OF OUR KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO GENERATE AND STORE ELECTRICITY

EVOLVES. I ANTICIPATE THAT WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH A -- A STATIC REALITY IN

TERMS OF INVENTIVENESS, EITHER.

MR. GOODELL: THIS BILL -- JUST TO BE CLEAR. THIS

BILL DOESN'T PURPORT TO REQUIRE THAT THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES THAT ARE SOLD IN

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

NEW YORK STATE BE PRODUCED IN A MANNER THAT HAS ZERO EMISSIONS,

CORRECT? IT ONLY REQUIRES THAT THE VEHICLE ITSELF HAVE ZERO EMISSIONS,

CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT DOESN'T REQUIRE THAT FOR THE

CURRENT AUTOMOTIVE HARDWARE THAT'S ON OUR STREETS AND HIGHWAYS AND IT

DOESN'T ANTICIPATE IT FOR THE NEXT GENERATION.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, I SAW A REPORT --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WHAT IS IN --

MR. GOODELL: OH, I'M SORRY.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: -- (INAUDIBLE) THAT WE WILL BE

REPLACING ALL OF THE VEHICLES THAT ARE ON -- EXCEPT FOR COLLECTIBLE

VEHICLES, ALL OF THE VEHICLES WILL BE REPLACED. AND ALL THIS BILL IS

ATTEMPTING TO DO IS SAY REPLACE THEM WITH ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLES.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, I SAW A REPORT THAT INDICATED

THAT IF TEXAS WERE TO CONVERT TO ALL ELECTRIC VEHICLES THEY WOULD NEED

110 TERAWATT HOURS OF ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY. THAT'S ENOUGH TO POWER

11 MILLION HOMES. IN NEW YORK STATE THE NUMBER WOULD BE LOWER

BECAUSE WE HAVE FEWER VEHICLES THAN THEY DO IN TEXAS. DO YOU HAVE

AN ESTIMATE OF HOW MANY TERAWATT HOURS OF ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY WE

WOULD NEED TO CONVERT ALL OF OUR VEHICLES TO ELECTRIC-POWERED

VEHICLES?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T HAVE THAT FIGURE, BUT I

DO KNOW THAT WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF INITIATING THE FIRST OFFSHORE WIND

FARMS AND THAT THEY ARE BEING PAID FOR BY ENTREPRENEURS IN THE PRIVATE

SECTOR. THERE WERE SOME QUESTIONS EARLIER ABOUT WHETHER, YOU KNOW,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THERE WAS ENOUGH MONEY TO DO THIS. WELL, THE MONEY IS BEING PUT UP

BY PRIVATE ENTITIES AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE RESPONDING TO THE MARKET

DEMAND, AND THAT MARKET IS -- AND THE MARKET DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY IS

SOMETHING THAT WE'RE ASKING IN THIS BILL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF

ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION TO MONITOR AND ENCOURAGE QUITE CLOSELY.

MR. GOODELL: WELL, AS YOU KNOW, TEXAS HAS

ABOUT A THIRD MORE RESIDENTS THAN NEW YORK STATE AND, OF COURSE, THAT

GAP CONTINUES TO GROW AS PEOPLE FLEE NEW YORK STATE AND MOVE TO

TEXAS, BUT EVEN USING THAT AS A ROUGH ESTIMATE, IT WOULD LOOK LIKE WE

WOULD NEED SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 70 AND 75 TERAWATT HOURS OF

ADDITIONAL ELECTRICAL CAPACITY IN ORDER TO POWER THESE ELECTRIC VEHICLES

IF WE WERE TO DO THE FULL CONVERSION. DO YOU AN IDEA OF HOW MANY

ADDITIONAL ELECTRICAL PLANTS, GENERATING PLANTS, THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED

IN ORDER TO MEET THAT ELECTRICAL NEED?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I'VE ALREADY INDICATED THAT

OFFSHORE WIND SOURCING FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY IS BEGINNING IN EARNEST

AND IS GOING TO GROW AND AS EARLIER IN THE DEBATE, THERE WAS DISCUSSION

OF SOLAR ENERGY BEING AN ADDITIONAL RENEWABLE SOURCE THAT IS REALLY

TAKING OFF AND GROWING. I SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE

CONVERSATIONS WITH OUR NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH WITH SIGNIFICANT

RENEWABLE ENERGY AVAILABLE FROM ELECTRIC PROJECTS THAT HAVE BEEN

OVERBUILT IN ONTARIO.

MR. GOODELL: OF COURSE A LOT OF FOLKS --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE MAY END UP IMPORTING

SOME OF THIS POWER. WE'RE CERTAINLY GOING TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

GENERATE IT, AS WELL.

MR. GOODELL: I APPRECIATE THOSE COMMENTS, AND I

APPRECIATE YOUR OPTIMISM ON BRINGING POWER, BUT A LOT OF CONSUMERS

DON'T REALIZE THAT BECAUSE OF THE UNRELIABILITY OF WIND AND SOLAR, WHICH

PRODUCES ZERO POWER ON A COLD, STILL NIGHT, IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GRID

RELIABILITY, THE GRID REQUIRES ALMOST AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF TRADITIONAL

BACKUP POWER. SO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT FROM THE VARIABLE GREEN

ENERGY THAT WE HOPE WILL POWER AN INCREASING PORTION OF OUR STATE'S

ELECTRICAL NEEDS, HOW MUCH BASE GENERATION WOULD WE NEED TO PRODUCE

70 TO 75 TERAWATT HOURS OF ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I'LL LET YOU DO THAT

CALCULATION. I CAN TELL YOU THOUGH THAT THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT WE ARE

GOING TO TRY TO CONVERT TO IN THE NEXT 15 MINUTES. THIS ANTICIPATES A

GRADUAL, MARKET-BASED RESPONSE TO THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY TO POWER

WHAT IS PRESENTLY THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF AIR POLLUTION. SOME ESTIMATES

INDICATE THAT 40 PERCENT OF THE AIR POLLUTION IN OUR STATE AND NATION IS

FROM VEHICLES. AND SO ADDRESSING THAT IS GOING TO GIVE US A BIG HEAD

START ON ANSWERING THE LARGER QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN GET

AHEAD OF THE -- OF THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE DRIVEN BY AIR

EMISSIONS.

MR. GOODELL: AND I APPRECIATE THE FACT VERY

MUCH THAT THIS BILL PROVIDES FOR A PHASE-IN WITH ALL PASSENGER VEHICLES,

ALL NEW SALES OF PASSENGER VEHICLES TO BE ZERO EMISSION BY 2035, OR

ROUGHLY 14 YEARS FROM NOW. CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT THE LEAD

TIME IS IN ORDER TO DESIGN, OBTAIN ALL THE PERMITS, GET ARTICLE X

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

APPROVAL AND CONSTRUCT A MAJOR GENERATING FACILITY? I MEAN, WE'RE

TALKING YEARS IF NOT MORE, RIGHT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: DEPENDS UPON THE FACILITY.

WE START WITH THE REALITY THAT FOR SOLAR YOU CAN ACTUALLY INSTALL THE SOLAR

GENERATOR ON YOUR ROOF OR FOR COMMUNITY SOLAR IN A MATTER OF WEEKS,

NOT YEARS. PLANNING FOR LARGE, OFFSHORE WIND POWER IS SOMETHING THAT

WOULD BE MEASURED IN YEARS, BUT NOT DECADES.

MR. GOODELL: GOTCHA. THANK YOU, MR.

ENGLEBRIGHT.

ON THE BILL, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL.

MR. GOODELL: I APPRECIATE THE DESIRE OF MY

COLLEAGUE TO HAVE ZERO EMISSION VEHICLES, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT THESE

SO-CALLED "ZERO EMISSION VEHICLES" ARE ANYTHING BUT ZERO EMISSIONS

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ENTIRE ENVIRONMENTAL PICTURE. I HAD A FRIEND AND

COLLEAGUE WHO WAS VERY PROUD THAT HE JUST BOUGHT A ZERO EMISSION

PRIUS AND COULD DRIVE TO WORK AND BACK BASED ON THE PLUG-IN, AND I

DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE HE WAS REALLY PROUD OF HIS INVESTMENT, BUT

I WAS THINKING TO MYSELF, YOUR CAR IS BURNING ON ABOUT 30 PERCENT COAL

AND ABOUT 40 PERCENT OIL AND THE REST IS NATURAL GAS, AND MY CAR JUST

USES REGULAR GAS. SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE BIG ENVIRONMENTAL

PICTURE, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACT THAT AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE USES

TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF COBALT, LITHIUM, COPPER AND RARE-EARTH. AND

WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT THOSE RARE-EARTHS ARE MINED IN A

HORRIFICALLY ENVIRONMENTALLY DESTRUCTIVE MANNER PRIMARILY IN CHINA.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AND WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT IF YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT HOW THE POWER

IS GOING INTO THE VEHICLE, THE ELECTRIC GENERATION, YOU'RE ONLY LOOKING AT

A LITTLE MYOPIC SEGMENT, A LITTLE SEGMENT OF IT.

IN MY COUNTY, WE HAD A COAL PLANT THAT WANTED TO

CONVERT TO NATURAL GAS. IT WAS A 98 PERCENT REDUCTION IN ALL AIR

EMISSIONS EVEN AFTER THE SCRUBBERS WERE INSTALLED. THAT COULDN'T MAKE

IT THROUGH THE BUREAUCRATIC CHALLENGES OF NEW YORK STATE. AND SO

NOW WESTERN NEW YORK, BY THE WAY, IS POWERED BY ONE OF THE NATION'S

WORST COAL-PRODUCED POWER PLANT IN THE NATION IN HOMER CITY. BUT

THIS BILL DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS ALL THAT ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE THAT'S

OCCURRING OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK STATE IN ORDER TO MEET OUR PURE,

MYOPIC, HAPPY-TO-BE ENVIRONMENTALIST REQUIREMENTS THAT THE VEHICLE

WE'RE DRIVING DOESN'T PRODUCE ANY EMISSIONS EVEN THOUGH WE ARE

CAUSING WORLDWIDE ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE IN MINING THE RARE-EARTHS

EVEN THOUGH WE ARE CREATING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF EMISSIONS FROM

ELECTRIC POWER PLANTS IN ORDER TO POWER THIS. AND SINCE ALL OF THE

PEOPLE THAT DRIVE VEHICLES WANT TO BE ABLE TO CHARGE THEM EVERY NIGHT,

EVEN WHEN THE SUN IS NOT SHINING AND THERE'S NO SOLAR POWER, AND EVEN

WHEN THE WIND'S NOT BLOWING AND THERE'S NO WIND POWER, THEY WANT TO

BE ABLE TO CHARGE THEIR ELECTRIC VEHICLES SO THEY CAN GET TO WORK THE

NEXT DAY. WE HAVE TO HAVE BACKUP GENERATION AND BACKUP

DISTRIBUTION, AND WE'RE TALKING IN THE RANGE OF 70 TERAWATT HOURS OF

ELECTRICITY. SO SOMEWHERE IN THE STATE OR IN OUR NEIGHBORING STATE,

THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF POWER PLANTS BUILT TO MEET THIS REQUIREMENT

WITH CORRESPONDING ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. WALCZYK.

MR. WALCZYK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. WALCZYK: THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN. MR.

ENGLEBRIGHT, HOW MUCH ENERGY DO EMISSIONS-PRODUCING VEHICLES IN THE

STATE OF NEW YORK USE APPROXIMATELY RIGHT NOW?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: HOW MUCH ENERGY? I -- I -- I

DON'T HAVE THAT FIGURE.

MR. WALCZYK: OKAY. THIS -- THIS BILL IS

ADDRESSING --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I CAN TELL -- I CAN TELL YOU THAT

IN DOLLAR AMOUNTS THAT NEW YORKERS ARE PRESENTLY SPENDING BETWEEN

$25 AND $30 BILLION A YEAR ON MOTOR FUELS THAT ARE CARBON-BASED, AND I

CAN TELL YOU THAT ABOUT 85 PERCENT OF THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY FLOWS TO

OUT-OF-STATE OIL INTERESTS, BUT IF YOU WANT TO ACTUALLY CALCULATE THE

ENERGY, I WOULD LET YOU MAKE THE CONVERSION FROM THOSE DOLLAR

EXPENSE FIGURES.

MR. WALCZYK: I ACTUALLY, SINCE YOU BROUGHT UP

THE DOLLARS AND CENTS, YOU DID MAKE A CLAIM EARLIER THAT IT'S CHEAPER TO

CHARGE YOUR VEHICLE THAN IT IS TO FILL IT UP WITH FUEL. MY UNDERSTANDING

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

IS, I MEAN, GASOLINE, WHILE WE MIGHT NOT LIKE THE EMISSIONS OR THE

ENERGY IMPACTS OR THE OUT-OF-STATE DOLLARS THERE, IS ONE OF THE MOST

ENERGY DENSE FUELS. DO YOU HAVE A COST COMPARISON FOR WHAT ELECTRIC

VERSUS GAS IN EITHER BTUS OR PICK YOUR UNIT, WHAT THAT -- WHAT THAT COST

COMPARISON WOULD BE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I CAN TELL YOU THAT OF THE --

EVERY DOLLAR THAT A GASOLINE VEHICLE HAS -- MAKES USE OF AS IT'S BURNING

GAS ONLY RETURNS ABOUT 25 CENTS OF ENERGY VALUE AND THAT THE OTHER 75

CENTS IS WASTED ON HEAT AND EXHAUST AND THE EMISSION OF GREENHOUSE

GASES. AND THAT BY COMPARISON, AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE PROVIDES ABOUT 90

CENTS OF DOLLAR ENERGY VALUE. SO IT'S MUCH MORE EFFICIENT.

MR. WALCZYK: OKAY. I'VE GOT FROM THE -- FROM

THE EIA HERE THAT IN MOTOR GASOLINE, NEW YORK STATE USES ABOUT 650

TRILLION, THEY USE BTUS, BRITISH TEMPERATURE UNITS. IS THAT -- IS THAT

YOUR UNDERSTANDING, ABOUT 650 TRILLION BTUS ANNUALLY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I WILL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR THAT.

I -- I DON'T HAVE THAT FIGURE BEFORE ME.

MR. WALCZYK: APPRECIATE IT. DO YOU KNOW WHAT

THE TOTAL -- IF YOU WERE TO CONTINUE WITH THAT METRIC IN BTUS, DO YOU

KNOW WHAT THE TOTAL ENERGY PRODUCTION IN NEW YORK STATE, AND I

APPRECIATE YOU NOT ONLY WANTING TO ADDRESS AN ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE,

BUT ALSO THE, YOU KNOW, THE IMPORT OF FUELS FROM OUTSIDE, SUPPORTING

OTHER ECONOMIES OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW

MANY TRILLION BTUS WE CURRENTLY PRODUCE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I AM NOT FAMILIAR, AND I DON'T

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

REALLY BELIEVE THAT IT IS RELEVANT TO THE PURPOSE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO

ACHIEVE HERE. I KNOW THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO HAVE ENERGY; I

ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. WHAT WE ARE ALSO FINDING TO BE NECESSARY IS TO

DECREASE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND AIR POLLUTION AND THE IMPACT

THAT TAILPIPE POLLUTION IS HAVING ON OUR HEALTH AND THE WELL-BEING OF

OUR CITIZENS.

MR. WALCZYK: THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE THAT, AND

I'LL ADDRESS THE RELEVANCE WHEN I GO ON THE BILL. BUT I'VE GOT A COUPLE

MORE QUESTIONS HERE. HOW MANY AMP SERVICE -- SO WHEN YOU THINK

ABOUT HOMES ACROSS NEW YORK STATE, MANY IN AGING INFRASTRUCTURE. AT

THE LAST END USER AT THE HOME, SOME MAY BE AS LOW AS A 30 AMP

SERVICE, IT WAS VERY COMMON FOR A LONG TIME TO HAVE 60 AMP SERVICE TO

A HOME. MODERN CODE IS REQUIRED, 100 AMP SERVICE TO -- TO HOMES

WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT SUPPORT ALL ELECTRONIC DEVICES. WE MAY REQUIRE

200 OR 400 AMP SERVICE. IF WE HAVE UNDER -- UNDER THE NEW YORK'S

GREEN NEW DEAL, IN ADDITION TO THIS BILL, IF YOU'VE GOT A TWO-FAMILY

HOME OR A TWO-CAR FAMILY THAT IS ALSO COMPLETELY CONVERTED TO ALL

ELECTRONIC DEVICES, HOW MANY -- HOW MANY AMPS IN SERVICE IS THAT

HOME GOING TO REQUIRE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T ANTICIPATE THAT THERE IS

A NEED TO CHANGE THE BUILDING REQUIREMENTS OR THE NUMBER OF AMPS THAT

A HOUSEHOLD PRESENTLY HAS. IF THEY ARE AT THE 100 AMP LEVEL, THEY

WOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE FITTED INTO THEIR LIFESTYLE AND

NOT HAVE TO MAKE MAJOR CHANGES TO THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE HOUSE OR

THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR THE COMMUNITY. AND THE REASON I CAN SAY THAT IS

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN INSTALLATIONS IN SOME HOMES AND THEY

ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE REST OF THE ELECTRICAL INFRASTRUCTURE SERVING THAT

HOME.

MR. WALCZYK: SO YOU DON'T ANTICIPATE THAT NEW

YORKERS ARE GOING TO NEED ANY ELECTRICAL UPGRADES TO THEIR HOMES.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID THAT

FOR THE MOST PART, THINGS ARE GOING TO BE COMPATIBLE IF YOU HAVE 100

AMP SERVICE TO YOUR HOME. AND I DIDN'T SAY THAT NO ONE WOULD NEED TO

MAKE UPGRADES. YOU MENTIONED 60 AMP SERVICE, 60 AMP SERVICE IS

PRETTY WEAK RIGHT NOW FOR THE USE OF MODERN REFRIGERATORS AND FREEZERS,

FOR EXAMPLE, WITHIN THE HOME. SO SOME UPGRADING THAT WOULD

LOGICALLY BE NECESSARY I ANTICIPATE WILL BE TAKING PLACE.

MR. WALCZYK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. WALCZYK: SO MR. SPEAKER, THE -- THE

RELEVANCE IN DOING A COMPARISON, AND YOU CAN PICK YOUR METRIC

WHETHER IT'S MEGAWATTS OR IN TRILLIONS OF BTUS, WHEN YOU COMPARE THE

TOTAL PRODUCTION IN BTUS FOR EXAMPLE, OF 800 TRILLION BTUS IN OUR

CURRENT PRODUCTION, AND JUST THIS FLEET IN GASOLINE, WHICH IS ABOUT A

THIRD OF OUR ENERGY PORTFOLIO, WE'RE GOING TO REQUIRE 650 TRILLION BTUS,

ALMOST THE WHOLE OF OUR CURRENT PRODUCTION JUST TO RUN THE FLEET THAT

WE'RE REQUIRING IS GOING TO BE ELECTRIFIED. AND LOOK, I'M NOT AN

ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, BUT I'M PLAYING ONE ON TV TODAY AND I CAN TELL

YOU, 30 AMP SERVICE IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

A LOT OF POOR HOMES, HOMES IN POVERTY THAT HAVE THAT 30 AMP SERVICE

THAT ARE GOING TO NEED AN UPGRADE IN ORDER TO COMPLY WITH THIS, AND

REACH ONE OF THE LARGEST HURDLES OUT OF POVERTY IN UPSTATE NEW YORK,

AND THAT IS TRANSPORTATION TO A JOB. SO CONSIDER THAT BEFORE CASTING

YOUR VOTE.

MR. SPEAKER, FURTHERMORE, 60 AMP SERVICE DOESN'T RUN

ELECTRONIC APPLIANCES, LET ALONE CHARGE CARS FOR A TWO-FAMILY HOME,

AND NEITHER DOES 100 AMP SERVICE. WE CAN GET INTO THE PHASES AND,

AGAIN, I'M NOT AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, BUT THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN JUST PASS

A BILL LIKE THIS WITH A HOPE AND A WISH AND THROW IT OUT INTO THE AIR AND

MAKE IT A LAW, WE'VE DONE THIS BEFORE. THERE'S NO PLAN TO GET THOSE

HOMES IN POVERTY TO THE PROPER SERVICE THAT THEY NEED TO BE SO THAT THEY

CAN CHARGE THE ELECTRONIC VEHICLES THAT WE REQUIRED THEM TO PURCHASE.

I HOPE THAT ALL THE MEMBERS IN THIS CHAMBER CONSIDER

THE EFFICIENCY OF REFRIGERATORS, THE EFFICIENCY -- AND, LOOK, NEW YORK

STATE, WE'RE THE 5TH LARGEST CONSUMER OF PETROLEUM. CAN WE DO BETTER?

YEAH. WE ARE ACTUALLY TOP IN THE NATION -- LOOK, THIS -- I WANT TO

ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE CHAMBER BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS GREAT. I DON'T

USUALLY SAY WE'RE FIRST IN THE NATION IN SOMETHING AND WE SAY THAT IT'S

GOOD NEWS, BUT IN PETROLEUM PRODUCTS PER CAPITA, WE HAVE THE LOWEST

IN THE NATION. THAT'S A GOOD THING. WE'RE NOT SCIENCE DENIERS, RIGHT,

WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED TO DO BETTER. BUT WE ALSO NEED TO BASE

SOME OF THESE POLICIES IN REALITY.

THIS ONE RIGHT NOW IS GOING TO HAVE AN ADVERSE

IMPACT ON THE POOREST NEW YORKERS, THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT,

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

AND IT'S NOT BASED IN -- WE HEAR AND YOU'VE HEARD IT THROUGH ALL OF THE

DISCUSSIONS TODAY, THE BIG PICTURE PRODUCTION, HOW MANY SOLAR FIELDS

ARE WE GOING TO NEED, HOW MANY WIND TURBINES ARE WE GOING TO NEED?

WHAT HYDRO UPGRADES ARE WE GOING TO NEED? HOW MUCH HYDROPOWER

ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO BUY FROM CANADA? A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE

BACKBONE, BUT NOT A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE END USERS THAT ARE GOING TO BE

IMPACTED BY THIS LEGISLATION. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, MAYBE

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE SITTING IN THIS CHAIR ANYMORE, BUT YOUR CHILDREN

AND YOUR GRANDCHILDREN ARE GOING TO BE IMPACTED BY THIS WHEN THEY GET

THEIR FIRST CAR, OR THEY'RE TRYING TO GET TO WORK AND THEY'RE STRUGGLING TO

SURVIVE AND STAY IN NEW YORK. THEY'RE GOING TO BE IMPACTED BY THIS.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE NOT -- NOT ONLY HAVE TO BUY A MORE EXPENSIVE

VEHICLE, BUT THEN YOUR UTILITY COMES TO YOU AND SAYS, YEAH, WE CAN --

WE CAN ATTACH YOU TO A 400 AMP SERVICE SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE ALL

ELECTRONIC APPLIANCES IN YOUR -- IN YOUR HOME. WELL, TODAY AN UPGRADE

FROM 200 TO 400 AMP MIGHT BE $10,000 WITH YOUR UTILITY. HOW MANY

NEW YORK FAMILIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING TO ELEVATE THEMSELVES OUT OF

POVERTY HAVE $10,000 KICKING AROUND JUST SO THAT THEY CAN AFFORD TO

CHARGE THE ELECTRONIC CAR THAT YOU FORCED THEM TO PURCHASE. THAT'S

SOMETHING TO CONSIDER BEFORE YOU CAST YOUR VOTE.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

MS. KELLES.

MS. KELLES: THANK YOU SO MUCH. I -- I'D LOVE TO

ASK A QUESTION OF THE SPONSOR; WOULD HE YIELD?

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I WOULD BE PLEASED TO YIELD.

I YIELD, YES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT

YIELDS.

MS. KELLES: I HAVE ONE QUESTION SPECIFICALLY THAT

WAS BROUGHT UP EARLIER AND I THINK THAT -- THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO

CLARIFY, SPECIFIC TO THE ELECTRIFICATION OF THE GRID. SO THIS IS A TWO PART

QUESTION. ONE, WE HAVE OUR EXISTING TRANSMISSION LINES THROUGHOUT THE

ENTIRE NEW YORK STATE. THAT WOULD BE THE SYSTEM THAT WOULD BE USED

TO TRANSMIT ELECTRICITY TO HOMES AND, OF COURSE, TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES,

CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: CORRECT.

MS. KELLES: WE DO HAVE SIGNIFICANT FUNDING, IF I

RECALL, IN THE BUDGET THAT WE JUST PASSED FOR UPGRADES TO THE

TRANSMISSION LINES AND EXPANSION; IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING,

YES.

MS. KELLES: AND -- AND THE THIRD PIECE TO THIS IS,

YOU KNOW, THERE -- THERE IS, IN FACT, AS HAS BEEN NOTED, LOSS IN ENERGY

THROUGH TRANSMISSION OF ELECTRICITY THROUGH TRANSMISSION LINES, WHICH

-- WHICH IS CORRECT. DOES THIS HAVE ANY IMPACT ON GREENHOUSE GAS

EMISSIONS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, IF WE HAD MORE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

EFFICIENCY WE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME OF TRANSITIONING, BUT THERE IS A

FALLOFF IN POWER AS YOU TRANSMIT IT OVER DISTANCE.

MS. KELLES: ABSOLUTELY. SO THERE'S THE -- THE

GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS ARE -- ARE PRODUCED FROM THE PRODUCTION OF

THE ENERGY ITSELF, WHETHER IT BE FROM GAS, COAL, FIRE PLANTS, OBVIOUSLY A

SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IF YOU'RE USING RENEWABLE, BUT THE ACTUAL

TRANSMISSION THROUGH THE LINES, THE LOSS OF ELECTRONS, MY UNDERSTANDING

IS THAT THAT IN AND OF ITSELF DOES NOT RELEASE OR CREATE AN INCREASE IN

GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS, CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT IS CORRECT, YES.

MS. KELLES: OKAY. SO IT REALLY IS JUST THE

PRODUCTION COMPONENT THAT'S IMPORTANT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT IS CORRECT, AND THAT'S

WHY THE CLCPA FOCUSES ON THE PRODUCTION AS THE BEGINNING OF OUR

QUEST TO DISCIPLINE OUR -- AND REDUCE AND DECREASE OUR GREENHOUSE GAS

EMISSIONS.

MS. KELLES: RIGHT, AND I APPRECIATE --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE'RE TRANSITIONING AWAY

FROM FOSSIL FUEL SOURCES AND TOWARD RENEWABLE SOURCES.

MS. KELLES: EXACTLY, AND I APPRECIATE YOU

BRINGING UP THE CLCPA IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE

THAT THE CLCPA, ONE, IS NOW LAW; TWO, ESTABLISHES GOALS; AND THREE,

SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THERE WILL BE A SCOPING PLAN THAT

OUTLINES THE STRATEGY THAT WE WILL USE TO -- TO REACH THOSE GOALS, AS WELL

AS MECHANISMS TO -- TO REACH THOSE GOALS; IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT IS CORRECT.

MS. KELLES: OKAY. I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY

IMPORTANT TO MAKE THAT -- THAT DISTINCTION. AND SO THANK YOU FOR

ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. KELLES: I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT

WE ARE USING POLICY THAT ACKNOWLEDGES THAT WE ALL NEED TO SET GHG

EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS AS OUR PRIORITY, MEANING WE ALL NEED TO DO THIS AS

OUR PRIORITY IF WE ARE TO REACH OUR CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY

AND PROTECTION ACT, AND THIS IS THE EXACT PURPOSE OF POLICY ITSELF, THE

PROTECTION FOR THE PUBLIC GOOD. AND SOMETIMES LEAVING ACTIONS

EXCLUSIVELY TO THE MARKET WILL SIMPLY NOT ADDRESS OUR -- OUR MANDATE

THAT WE HAVE IN THE TIME FRAME THAT WE NEED, WHICH WE HAVE

RECOGNIZED THAT WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME. AND, THEREFORE, LEAVING IT

EXCLUSIVELY TO THE MARKET WITHOUT ANY POLICY I BELIEVE IS -- IS SERIOUSLY

IRRESPONSIBLE. THIS BILL IS TO CREATE A NET REDUCTION IN GREENHOUSE GAS

EMISSIONS. I ALSO WANTED TO NOTE THAT ESTIMATES BEING USED IN TODAY'S

DISCUSSION ARE BASED OFF OF TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY. I WILL REPEAT: THE

ESTIMATES BEING USED TODAY, IN TODAY'S DISCUSSION, ARE BASED ON TODAY'S

TECHNOLOGY, WHICH WE KNOW IS CHANGING AND IMPROVING AT A RAPID

PACE.

AND AS EVERYONE KNOWS, I LOVE LOOKING AT STUDIES, I

LOVE REFERRING TO STUDIES, SO I HIGHLY RECOMMEND A STUDY THAT CAME OUT

FROM -- IT'S CALLED 2035, REPORT 2.0 FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

IN BERKELEY: PREDICTS MAJOR ECONOMIC BENEFITS FROM GOING ELECTRONIC.

I KNOW THAT WAS A BIG TOPIC OF DISCUSSION TODAY. IT WOULD SAVE

HOUSEHOLDS $1,000 ANNUALLY OVER THE NEXT 30 YEARS AND SUPPORT A NET

INCREASE OF OVER TWO MILLION JOBS IN 2035 ACCORDING TO THE STUDY. THE

STUDY CLAIMS TO BE, QUOTE, "THE FIRST STUDY TO SHOW HOW IMPROVEMENTS

IN BATTERY TECHNOLOGY, COST, MANUFACTURING, SCALE AND INDUSTRY

AMBITION WILL ACCELERATE ELECTRIFICATION OF CARS AND TRUCKS," MEANING

THAT THERE WILL BE A POSITIVE FEEDBACK LOOP OF ALL OF THESE FACTORS

INCREASING THE SPEED AT WHICH WE IMPROVE THE TECHNOLOGIES IN ALL OF

THESE COMPONENTS. IT'S FINDING PREDICTS A MUCH QUICKER RATE OF

ELECTRIFICATION OF THE U.S. VEHICLE FLEET THAN PREVIOUSLY ANALYZED, AND I

BELIEVE THAT THIS IS PART OF THE DATA THAT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR SOME OF THE

MAJOR COMPANIES NOT ONLY PREDICTING, BUT GUARANTEEING THEY WILL SET

THAT GOAL OF CONVERTING ALL OF THEIR VEHICLE FLEETS, CARS TO ELECTRIC BY

2035. LAST QUOTE FROM THIS, "BY 2030, THE U.S. COULD MAKE ALL NEW

CAR SALES ELECTRIC, ALONG WITH OVER 80 PERCENT OF NEW TRUCK SALES, AND

POWER THEM WITH 90 PERCENT CLEAN ELECTRICITY," THE STUDY SAID. THIS

WIDESPREAD ELECTRIFICATION WOULD ALSO REDUCE U.S. ECONOMIC WIDE

EMISSIONS BY 35 PERCENT, ACCORDING TO THE STUDY.

SO I JUST WANT TO END BY SAYING JUST BECAUSE A BILL

DOES NOT ADDRESS EVERY SINGLE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE OR CRISIS THAT WE

HUMANS HAVE ESTABLISHED, IS NOT JUSTIFICATION FOR NOT PASSING A BILL THAT

IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. SO I STAND IN SUPPORT. I WANT TO HONOR

AND THANK THE TREMENDOUS WORK AND RESOLVE AND DETERMINATION OF THE

SPONSOR OF THIS BILL. YOU ARE AN INSPIRATION TO US ALL AND I STAND IN

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SUPPORT. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. LAWLER.

MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU. BELIEVE IN THE SCIENCE.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ALWAYS TOLD. IT IS THE COMMON REFRAIN, BELIEVE IN

THE SCIENCE. ON WHAT BASIS DOES THE SCIENCE SAY THAT BY THE YEAR 2035

100 PERCENT OF MEDIUM-DUTY AND HEAVY-DUTY VEHICLES WILL BE ZERO

EMISSIONS? ON WHAT BASIS DOES THE SCIENCE OR THE TECHNOLOGY SAY THAT

BY 2045, ALL OPERATIONS, WHERE FEASIBLE, WILL BE ZERO EMISSIONS? IT'S

NOT BASED ON SCIENCE. AS THE SPONSOR SAID, IT'S BASED ON HOPES AND

DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS. THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO LEGISLATE. THAT'S NOT

THE WAY TO MAKE POLICY DECISIONS IN THE STATE. THE REASON WE

CONTINUE TO SEE PEOPLE LEAVE THIS STATE IN DROVES IS BECAUSE WE

CONTINUE TO MAKE HORRENDOUS POLICY DECISIONS OUT OF THIS CHAMBER AND

NEXT DOOR.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS, TODAY, 60 PERCENT OF NEW

YORKERS RELY ON NATURAL GAS, 60 PERCENT. SO THE OBJECTIVE, AS THIS BILL

AND SOME OF OUR PRIOR BILLS DOES, IS TO GET US OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS. SIXTY

PERCENT. CAN ANYONE IN THIS CHAMBER TELL ME WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR

EVERY NEW YORKER TO CONVERT THEIR HOME, TO CHANGE THEIR HEATING

SYSTEM FROM GAS TO ELECTRIC, TO CHANGE THEIR STOVES AND THEIR OVENS

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

FROM GAS TO ELECTRIC? WHO IS PAYING FOR THAT? WHEN WE'RE MAKING

THESE POLICY DECISIONS, WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT AFFORDABILITY,

ACCESSIBILITY, RELIABILITY. THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE. LOOK

AT WHAT HAPPENED IN CALIFORNIA LAST YEAR WHEN THEY WERE FACING

BLACKOUTS AND BROWNOUTS. WHY? BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING ENERGY

POLICY BASED ON HOPES AND DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS AND NOT "THE

SCIENCE" AND TECHNOLOGY. SO THEY EXPERIENCED A REALLY DIRE SITUATION.

WE'VE HAD SITUATIONS IN THIS STATE WHEN STORMS HAVE COME THROUGH AND

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WITHOUT POWER FOR DAYS ON END. WHY? BECAUSE

WE'RE NOT INVESTING IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE. WE WANT TO MAKE THE WHOLE

SYSTEM ELECTRIC, YET WE HAVE SOME OF THE OLDEST AND MOST UNRELIABLE

TRANSMISSION LINES IN THE COUNTRY. WE ARE NOT INVESTING IN THE

INFRASTRUCTURE AND, YET, WE'RE MAKING POLICY DECISIONS AS IF THAT

INFRASTRUCTURE IS THERE, AS IF THE TECHNOLOGY MEETS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO

ACCOMPLISH. IT DOESN'T. I'LL BE THE FIRST ONE TO SAY I WANT RENEWABLES. I

WANT TO LIMIT OUR CARBON EMISSIONS, BUT LET'S ACTUALLY RELY ON THE

SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY RATHER THAN OUR ASPIRATIONS AND OUR HOPES.

OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS, NATURAL GAS HAS REDUCED CARBON

EMISSIONS 57 PERCENT MORE THAN RENEWABLES. I'LL REPEAT THAT: NATURAL

GAS HAS REDUCED CARBON EMISSIONS MORE -- 57 PERCENT MORE THAN

RENEWABLES OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS. SO WHEN WE'RE MAKING THESE POLICY

DECISIONS, I UNDERSTAND WE WANT TO REDUCE CARBON EMISSIONS, BUT LET'S

ACTUALLY BASE IT ON SCIENCE AND FACT. WE'RE SHUTTING DOWN INDIAN POINT.

NUCLEAR POWER IS CLEAN, ZERO CARBON EMISSIONS. INTERESTINGLY, WE'RE

KEEPING POWER PLANTS UPSTATE OPEN, SO I'M NOT REALLY SURE THE

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

CONTRADICTION BETWEEN THE POLICY DECISIONS WHERE WE'RE SHUTTING DOWN

A POWER PLANT THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 25 PERCENT OF OUR ENERGY

PRODUCTION IN THE REGION, AND THEN PAYING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO KEEP

POWER PLANTS IN UPSTATE NEW YORK OPEN. WE'RE NOT MAKING SOUND

POLICY DECISIONS. SO I IMPLORE EVERYBODY, WHEN WE'RE VOTING ON THESE

BILLS, WHICH ARE WELL-INTENTIONED, THAT WE REALLY LOOK AT THE SCIENCE AND

THE FACTS AND THE INFORMATION, AND NOT JUST DO THINGS BASED ON HOPES

AND DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS.

I'LL GIVE YOU SOME MORE STATISTICS TO MAKE THE POINT.

TODAY, ONLY 30 PERCENT OF NEW YORK'S ELECTRICITY COMES FROM

RENEWABLES. SO GETTING FROM 30 PERCENT TO 100 PERCENT ZERO EMISSION

BY 2040, JUST FOR THE ENERGY WE PRESENTLY CONSUME, IS A MASSIVE AND

INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE UNDERTAKING THAT WILL USE ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF

LAND, CARRYING ITS OWN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS THAT COULD BE MINIMIZED

BY USING EXISTING GAS INFRASTRUCTURE IN CONCERT WITH RENEWABLES AND OUR

ELECTRIC GRID. LET'S FOCUS ON PUTTING TOGETHER A REAL COMPREHENSIVE

ENERGY PLAN THAT ACTUALLY MEETS THE OBJECTIVES, THAT ACTUALLY GETS US

WHERE WE WANT TO GO.

AND I'LL MAKE ONE MORE POINT ABOUT THE COST. MANY

OF MY COLLEAGUES FROM NEW YORK CITY OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE NEED FOR

AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THEY TALK ABOUT THE DELIPIDATED NYCHA BUILDINGS.

WELL, NYCHA'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE CONVERTED. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE

TO CONVERT FROM NATURAL GAS TO ELECTRIC. AS WE'RE BUILDING NEW

AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IT'S GOING TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE TO SHIFT FROM

NATURAL GAS TO ELECTRIFICATION. SO AS MANY OF YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

FOR INVESTMENTS IN NYCHA AND THE NEED FOR INVESTMENTS IN AFFORDABLE

HOUSING, JUST UNDERSTAND BILLS LIKE THIS THAT ARE NOT BASED IN SCIENCE

WILL INCREASE THE COST, WHICH MEANS IT'S LESS MONEY, NOT MORE, LESS

MONEY TO INVEST IN THESE IMPORTANT HOUSING UNITS.

SO I JUST ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY, LET'S NOT VOTE ON THESE

THINGS BLINDLY, LET'S ACTUALLY FOLLOW THE SCIENCE AS IS SO OFTEN STATED. I

VOTE NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GLICK.

MS. GLICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. OBVIOUSLY I

WILL BE SUPPORTING THE MEASURE, BUT UNLIKE SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES, I

GUESS I HAVE A STRONGER BELIEF IN AMERICAN CAN-DO SPIRIT AND

KNOW-HOW. RESEARCH CONTINUES EVERY DAY, MATERIALS RESEARCH, AND

NEW MATERIALS MAY BE REPLACING WHAT HAS BEEN A MORE ANTIQUATED USE

OF RARE-EARTH MINERALS. THERE CERTAINLY HAS BEEN DRAMATIC CHANGES IN

NANO MATERIALS. THERE'S VERY INTERESTING WORK BEING DONE ON THE

ABILITY OF GRAPHITE TO TRANSMIT ELECTRICITY WITH LESS RESISTANCE, MAKING IT

MORE EFFICIENT.

SO NEW YORK STATE IS A WEALTH, A WEALTH OF RESEARCH

UNIVERSITIES THAT ARE DOING INCREDIBLE WORK IN THESE AREAS. I HEARD ONE

OF MY COLLEAGUES TRY TO COMPARE THE REDUCTION IN EMISSIONS FROM

RENEWABLES VERSUS GAS OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS. WELL, IN THE LAST 15 YEARS

WE'VE DONE VERY LITTLE IN TERMS OF EXPANDING RENEWABLES. SO YOU CAN

MANAGE STATISTICS TO MAKE IT SOUND ONE WAY THAT SUPPORTS YOUR THESIS

UNLESS YOU LOOK A LITTLE BIT DEEPER AND UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE

COMPARING SOMETHING APPLES TO ORANGES.

NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

BUT I AM GLAD TO HEAR THAT THERE IS STRONG COMMITMENT

AND SUPPORT FOR IMPROVING OUR INFRASTRUCTURE, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO

PEOPLES EMBRACING THE FEDERAL INFRASTRUCTURE BILL THAT IS BEING

DISCUSSED NOW IN WASHINGTON. NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE A MAJOR

EXPANSION OF POWER PLANTS. WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS MORE PERSONAL

ENERGY INDEPENDENCE. FIFTEEN YEARS AGO, DRIVING AROUND LONG ISLAND,

YOU NEVER SAW ANY SOLAR PANELS ANYWHERE. NOW EVEN IN VERY, YOU

KNOW, SORT OF WORKING, MIDDLE-CLASS NEIGHBORHOODS THERE ARE LOTS OF

SOLAR PANELS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING THAT IT'S LOWERING THEIR

ENERGY COSTS AND MAKING THEM MORE ENERGY INDEPENDENT INDIVIDUALLY.

NOT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE A MAJOR POWER PLANT. WE NEED TO BE

USING GEOTHERMAL, WHICH INCIDENTALLY THE SCIENCE BUILDING AT OSWEGO

IS GEOTHERMAL HEATED AND COOLED; VERY, VERY CUTTING EDGE. AND THAT

MAY BE WHERE WE NEED TO GO WITH RETROFITTING NYCHA. HEAT PUMPS

ARE A VERY EFFICIENT WAY OF HEATING AND COOLING.

SO I BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE THE CAPACITY AND THE

INTELLIGENCE TO LOOK FURTHER. ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES REFERRED TO

BROWNOUTS IN CALIFORNIA. A LOT OF THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THEIR

ELECTRICAL INFRASTRUCTURE WAS VERY POOR AND WAS, IN FACT, CREATING FOREST

FIRES THAT BECAME THESE ENORMOUS, ENORMOUS PROBLEMS. AND SO THEY

WERE CUTTING POWER IN PART TO MINIMIZE FIRES. I LOVE THE COMPARISONS

TO TEXAS. THEY DIDN'T HAVE A SHARED ENERGY GRID WITH THEIR

NEIGHBORING STATES SO WHEN THEY WENT DOWN, EVERYTHING WENT DOWN,

EXCEPT IN EL PASO WHERE THEY HAD BEEN A LITTLE MORE THOUGHTFUL. SO

PEOPLE WERE WITHOUT WATER, AIR CONDITIONING, ELECTRICITY FOR WEEKS. SO

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

I'D RATHER BE IN NEW YORK THAN TEXAS. I APPRECIATE THE CONCERN FOR

PEOPLE WHO ARE IN POOR COMMUNITIES AND IN POOR PARTS OF UPSTATE NEW

YORK. ONE OF THE REASONS WE SHOULD BE EXPANDING OUR BROADBAND IS TO

ENSURE THAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO BETTER JOBS. BUT IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE THAT IF

WE ARE UPGRADING OUR ENERGY CAPACITY IN DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THERE WILL

BE BETTER JOBS AND PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO COME OUT OF POVERTY AS A

RESULT OF HAVING BETTER INCOME.

AND I JUST WANT TO NOTE THAT IF YOU LOOK ON THE JOHN

DEERE WEBSITE, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IN THE NEXT DECADE BEING --

HAVING THEIR FARM EQUIPMENT, TRACTORS FULLY ELECTRICAL. SO -- AND THERE

ARE SOME OTHER COMPANIES THAT ARE MOVING AGGRESSIVELY IN THAT

DIRECTION. NOT EVERYTHING. WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL WE HAVE

EVERYTHING IN PLACE IN ORDER TO MAKE POLICY. WE CAN LOOK AHEAD. WE

CAN SAY THIS IS WHERE WE NEED TO BE AND THIS IS HOW WE'RE GOING TO GET

THERE. AND I HAVE ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE IN OUR ABILITY TO DO SO. NOW

I'M NOT -- I'M NOT A BEEF EATER BUT, YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS AGO YOU DID NOT

ACTUALLY HAVE THE IMPOSSIBLE BURGER, WHICH IS USING SCIENCE TO CREATE

MEAT IN THE LAB, WHICH APPARENTLY A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE. NOT MY THING,

BUT SCIENCE, IF WE'RE GOING TO FOLLOW THE SCIENCE, WE HAVE TO

UNDERSTAND THAT WE MAY NOT KNOW ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE UNDERWAY.

BUT THERE IS RESEARCH BEING DONE. TEN YEARS AGO, WE NEVER WOULD HAVE

BEEN TALKING ABOUT RENEWABLES IN THE WAY WE ARE NOW, AND HAD WE

BEEN -- JIMMY CARTER PUT SOLAR PANELS ON THE WHITE HOUSE. IF RONALD

REAGAN HADN'T RIPPED THEM OFF, THIS COUNTRY WOULD BE IN A MUCH BETTER

PLACE WHEN IT COMES TO EMISSIONS AND OUR CREATION OF RENEWABLE

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

ENERGY.

SO IT'S NOT ALL GOING TO HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE, BUT YOU

HAVE TO HAVE A VISION. THIS BILL IS ABOUT A VISION AND I THANK THE

SPONSOR. I THANK THE SPEAKER FOR HAVING TODAY'S DEBATE AND I

WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT NEW YORK LOOKING FORWARD AND SETTING A PLAN.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MS. NIOU.

MS. NIOU: WOULD OUR CHAIR KINDLY YIELD TO A

COUPLE OF QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: HE YIELDS.

MS. NIOU: SO I'M GOING TO ASK A COUPLE PERSONAL

QUESTIONS, IF YOU DON'T MIND. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN CHAIR OF THE

ENVIRONMENTAL COMMITTEE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT'S FOUR GOING ON FIVE YEARS.

MS. NIOU: YEAH. SO DURING THAT TIME, HOW MANY

BILLS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY PUT OUT, YOU KNOW, TO REALLY BE ABLE TO HELP

WITH THE HUGE GLOBAL WARMING ISSUE AND CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE'VE ONLY BEEN ABLE TO

MOVE BILLS IN BOTH HOUSES SINCE WE'VE HAD A CHANGE IN THE

COMPOSITION OF THE SENATE. WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO MOVE BILLS IN OUR

HOUSE EACH AND EVERY YEAR. THE SPEAKER HAS BEEN ENORMOUSLY

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

SUPPORTIVE EACH AND EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, EVEN SETTING UP A SPECIAL

STUDY GROUP MADE UP OF MEMBERS TO DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT IT'S

ONLY REALLY SINCE WE'VE HAD SYMMETRY OF PURPOSE IN BOTH HOUSES THAT

WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE NEW LAW THAT IS SETTING US IN THE DIRECTION THAT

THIS MEASURE IS VERY MUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF.

MS. NIOU: AND -- I MEAN, BUT YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY

PUT TOGETHER A WHOLE PACKAGE OF DIFFERENT BILLS, RIGHT, TO BASICALLY

BATTLE SOME OF THE BIG ENVIRONMENTAL NEEDS THAT OUR STATE AND OUR

COUNTRY HAS AND OUR WORLD HAS, RIGHT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YES. THIS IS A JOURNEY AND

IT'S A JOURNEY THAT INVOLVES TAKING MANY SEPARATE STEPS.

MS. NIOU: AND THIS IS JUST ONE OF THOSE BILLS.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE, BUT IT

IS ONE OF THOSE BILLS, YES.

MS. NIOU: SO I MEAN, THIS IS PROBABLY ALSO -- MAYBE

THIS WASN'T THAT LONG AGO, I MEAN I REMEMBER IT, BUT DO YOU REMEMBER

WHEN SAFETY BELTS WERE MANDATED FOR OUR STATE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I REMEMBER.

MS. NIOU: DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN, YOU KNOW,

PEOPLE WERE ARGUING THAT MAYBE IT DID NOT CAUSE LESS VEHICULAR DEATHS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I REMEMBER.

MS. NIOU: AND NOW I'M SURE THAT THE NUMBERS SHOW

THAT WE HAVE A LOT LESS VEHICULAR DEATHS, RIGHT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, YES.

MS. NIOU: AND IT WASN'T THAT LONG AGO THAT WE

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BANNED SMOKING INDOORS, IN RESTAURANTS AND PLACES, RIGHT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: NOT SO LONG AGO.

MS. NIOU: YEAH, BUT -- AND PEOPLE WERE ALSO THEN

SAYING THAT THERE WEREN'T GOING TO BE BETTER HEALTH OUTCOMES, CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: PEOPLE ARGUED AGAINST IT AS

AN INVASION OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE AND PRIVATE DECISION-MAKING.

MS. NIOU: RIGHT. AND YET, PEOPLE'S HEALTH

OUTCOMES WERE A LOT BETTER, RIGHT, AFTER WE PASSED THAT BILL?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: MUCH BETTER.

MS. NIOU: AND I GUESS IN THAT WAY, WE'RE ALL VERY

INTERCONNECTED, CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: CORRECT.

MS. NIOU: MY HEALTH IS IMPACTED BY YOUR HEALTH,

AND YOUR DECISIONS IMPACT MY DECISIONS.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE HAVE SEEN THAT, IN

PARTICULAR, DURING THIS PANDEMIC. AND I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP THE

QUESTION OF THE INTERACTION OF ALL OF US. I WILL JUST POINT OUT THAT DIRTY

AIR, WHICH IS PART OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO CORRECT HERE, IS STATISTICALLY

STRONGLY ASSOCIATED WITH COVID-19 DEATHS AND THE DISEASE HAVING A

GREATER IMPACT, AND THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE HAD THE UNFORTUNATE

REALITY OF GREATER AMOUNTS OF AIR POLLUTION DUE TO TAILPIPE POLLUTION

HAVE SUFFERED GREATER MORTALITY, GREATER LEVELS OF DEATH. SO THERE IS A

PART OF OUR PRESENT PANDEMIC REALITY THAT WE'RE ALL IN THAT THIS BILL

SPEAKS TO, AS WELL, AND I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP. THANK YOU.

MS. NIOU: AND I'M GLAD THAT YOU SAID WHAT YOU JUST

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DID, BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO BRING UP, AS WELL.

ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MS.

NIOU.

MS. NIOU: IT'S SO INTERESTING THAT, YOU KNOW,

NYCHA WAS BROUGHT UP IN THESE ARGUMENTS. YOU KNOW, NYCHA

WAS ACTUALLY BUILT NEXT TO -- A LOT OF OUR PUBLIC HOUSING IN THE CITY WAS

ACTUALLY BUILT NEXT TO HIGHWAYS FOR A REASON, BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO,

YOU KNOW, PUT PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T FIGHT FOR THEMSELVES NEXT TO

HIGHWAYS WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF AIR POLLUTION, AND THEY KNEW THAT

THERE WOULD BE POORER HEALTH OUTCOMES FOR THOSE CHILDREN. THERE IS A

HUGE AMOUNT OF ASTHMA IN CHILDREN WHO LIVE IN OUR PUBLIC HOUSING,

AND THAT IS NOT BY CHANCE OR CIRCUMSTANCE. THERE ARE HUGE OUTCOMES

THAT ARE RELATED TO INFRASTRUCTURE TO WHERE WE ARE ALLOWING, YOU KNOW,

FAMILIES TO LIVE AND PLAY AND WHERE WE BUILD OUR HIGHWAYS AND WHERE

WE ACTUALLY HAVE OUR VEHICLES, YOU KNOW, TRAVEL.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT OUR CHAIR JUST SAID IS -- IS, IN

PARTICULAR, VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF WHAT WE'RE

DEBATING BUT ALSO, I MEAN, LET'S REMEMBER, AIR MOVES, WATER MOVES.

WE ARE ALL INTERCONNECTED IN THOSE WAYS. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS

JUST ONE BILL OUT OF MANY, MANY BILLS THAT WILL HELP US TO GET TOWARDS

OUR GOALS TO -- TO BASICALLY PROTECT OUR ENVIRONMENT, PROTECT OUR

FAMILIES, PROTECT PEOPLE. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY TIMES

WHEN WE HAVE HAD BILLS THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVE BEEN IN FRONT OF US WHERE

WE KNOW THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE DIRECT IMPACT ON ALL OF US, AND THIS IS

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-- THIS IS A BILL THAT ACTUALLY IS ONLY ABOUT NEW SALES. I WOULD ARGUE THAT

WE ACTUALLY SHOULD -- I MEAN, THIS IS COMING FROM SOMEBODY WHO USED

TO BE A CAR MECHANIC, YOU KNOW, I WOULD ARGUE THAT WE ACTUALLY SHOULD

BE WORKING ON, YOU KNOW, REGULATING DEEPLY SOME OF THE EMISSIONS

IMPACTS OF OLDER VEHICLES. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE OTHER BILLS FOR THAT.

TODAY'S BILL IS ABOUT NEW VEHICLES AND I THINK THAT IT'S

REALLY -- IT'S REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT AND I THINK THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY,

YOU KNOW, THE TECH THAT WE USED TO USE, YOU KNOW, SO MUCH BEFORE AND

THAT WE DIDN'T THINK TO USE WHEN IT WAS AVAILABLE TO US HAS NOW BECOME

THE MAIN TECH, YOU KNOW, THAT IS NOW DESIRABLE AND IS ACTUALLY DEEMED

DESIRABLE EVEN BY OUR OWN MARKETPLACE. YOU KNOW, LIKE, WE'RE SEEING

THE STOCKS, WE'RE SEEING HOW, YOU KNOW, ELECTRICAL VEHICLES ARE NOW

STARTING TO TAKE OVER OUR MARKET. YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW,

PEOPLE ALSO DESIRE TO LEAVE A MUCH SMALLER CARBON FOOTPRINT. YOU

KNOW, WE ARE SEEING IN OUR CITY RIGHT NOW A LOT LESS USAGE IN CARS. WE

ARE SEEING EXACTLY WHAT OUR CHAIR HAD JUST SAID WHICH IS THAT, YOU

KNOW, THE -- THE IMPACTS OF COVID-19 HAVE SHOWN US A VERY DIFFERENT

WAY OF LIVING AND ALSO A VERY DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, WAY OF RECOVERING.

AND I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW, THIS IS THE BILL THAT IS SO NEEDED FOR OUR --

OUR STATE TO TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY AND WE HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, TIME AND

TIME AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY BELTS, WHEN

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BANNING SMOKING INDOORS, WHEN WE'RE TALKING

ABOUT VERY, VERY BASIC THINGS NOW THAT WE LOOK BACK, WOW, HINDSIGHT

IS 20/20. THAT WAS REALLY GOOD LEGISLATION TO MAKE. THAT WAS REALLY

GOOD POLICY TO MAKE. THAT WAS SAVING PEOPLE'S LIVES AND ALSO MAKING

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IT SO THAT PEOPLE CAN LIVE HEALTHIER. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE BILLS. THIS IS

GOING TO MAKE IT SO WE ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO NOT JUST SAVE

PEOPLE'S LIVES, MAKE IT SO THAT WE HAVE HEALTHIER, BETTER HEALTH

OUTCOMES, BUT WE ARE ALSO GOING TO MAKE IT SO THAT, YOU KNOW, WE

HAVE, YOU KNOW, A GOAL OF -- MEETING OUR GOAL OF SAVING OUR

ENVIRONMENT, AS WELL.

THIS -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS ACTUALLY, TO ME, YOU KNOW,

I'M LOOKING AT THE DATE AND I'M LIKE WOW, IT'S ALREADY ANTICIPATED THAT

BY 2030 WE ARE GOING TO BE IRREVERSIBLE, ON THE PATH OF IRREVERSIBLE

WHEN IT COMES TO OUR IMPACTS ON THE EARTH. SO I JUST WANTED TO SAY

THANK YOU TO OUR AMAZING CHAIR OF, YOU KNOW, EN CON, AND ALSO JUST TO

SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I REALLY DO COMMEND OUR SPEAKER FOR, TIME AND

TIME AGAIN, ACTUALLY WORKING ON THESE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION BILLS.

AS SOMEBODY WHO ALSO WORKED FOR THE EPA, I WILL SAY THAT YOU ARE

CORRECT IN SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS BILL IS ABSOLUTELY SUPPOSED TO FALL

INTO THE EPA'S, YOU KNOW, PURVIEW. SO I WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR THAT,

AND ALSO TO THANK OUR COLLEAGUES TODAY FOR A VERY ROBUST DEBATE,

BECAUSE I THINK THAT BECAUSE WE ARE DEBATING THESE ISSUES, THESE ARE THE

ISSUES THAT ARE GOING TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO

ASK THESE CORRECT QUESTIONS. I REALLY APPRECIATED, ALSO, THE SPEAKER WHO

SPOKE BEFORE ME IN REALLY BEING ABLE TO ANALYZE SOME OF THESE VERY

LARGE POCKETS OF QUESTIONS, AND I'M GOING TO SAY THIS ALSO: A LOT OF OUR

UPSTATE FARMS HAVE HAD HUGE, YOU KNOW, SUSTAINABILITY PUSHES AND WE

ARE ACTUALLY NOW, WITHIN THE CITY AND WITHIN THE UPSTATE FARMING, YOU

KNOW, COMMUNITY, WE HAVE PARTNERSHIPS THAT ARE MAKING IT SO THERE'S

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FARM TO FAMILIES. YOU KNOW, HUGE GROCERIES OUTPUT, YOU KNOW, REALLY

BEAUTIFUL, YOU KNOW, FARMERS MARKETS THAT ARE HAPPENING SO THAT WE

CAN ACTUALLY HAVE THE KIND OF SUSTAINABILITY THAT WILL MAKE IT SO THAT

WE'RE ACTUALLY ELIMINATING A LOT OF THE LARGE NEED FOR HUGE BOX PRODUCE

GROCERY STORES TO -- TO -- TO ACTUALLY MOVE SO MUCH STUFF GOING INTO OUR

CITY. SO I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THESE ARE WAYS THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY

CONTINUE TO ELIMINATE, YOU KNOW, OUR HUGE DEPENDENCE ON FOSSIL FUELS

AND REALLY BE ABLE TO PUSH FOR THE GROWTH AND THE CHANGES THAT WE NEED

RIGHT NOW. SO THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ZEBROWSKI.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: THANKS, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A COUPLE QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT

YIELDS.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: THANKS, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT. GOOD

AFTERNOON. CERTAINLY SHARE MANY OF THE SAME GOALS THAT ARE EXPRESSED

IN THIS BILL. I DO HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF

CONFUSION ON. I GUESS SUCCINCTLY, IS THIS A GOAL OR A REQUIREMENT THAT

ALL NEW SALES BE ZERO EMISSIONS BY 2035?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT'S -- IT'S BOTH. BECAUSE IT IS

14 YEARS IN THE FUTURE, IT IS BOTH -- BOTH OF THOSE THINGS. BUT WHEN WE

ARRIVE AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, IT WILL BE A REQUIREMENT, FROM THAT DATE

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OF 2035 AND 2045, RESPECTIVELY, FOR CARS AND TRUCKS, THEN IT WILL BE A

REQUIREMENT.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: SO I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT WILL HELP US MOVE IN THAT

DIRECTION IN SOMETHING THAT IS NOT HEAVY-HANDED AS WE GO THROUGH A

TRANSITION.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: SO I GUESS THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING

TO UNDERSTAND IS -- IS THE -- HOW THE BILL WILL WORK, YOU KNOW, SECTION

1 TALKS ABOUT THE GOAL OF THE STATE AND SECTION 2C TALKS ABOUT

STRATEGIES AND COORDINATING WITH OTHER STATE AGENCIES TO ACHIEVE THE

GOAL. BUT SECTION 2A TALKS ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT TO THE EXTENT

CONSISTENT WITH FEDERAL LAW DEVELOPING AND PROPOSING REGULATIONS THAT

REQUIRE INCREASING VOLUMES OF NEW ZERO EMISSION VEHICLES OFFERED FOR

SALE OR LEASE OR SOLD TOWARD -- TOWARDS -- AND I SKIPPED A COUPLE

WORDS, TOWARDS THE TARGET OF 100 PERCENT IN-STATE SALES 2035.

SO I'M JUST A LITTLE CONFUSED. HOW WOULD THE

DEPARTMENT DO THAT? YOU KNOW, I GUESS IT'S BACK TO MY -- MY QUESTION

OF GOAL OR REQUIREMENT. I'M NOT SURE WHERE IN THE BILL IT SAYS THAT, YOU

KNOW, COME JANUARY 31, 2035 OR JANUARY 1, 2036, NOT EXACTLY SURE

HOW THE TIME FRAME WOULD WORK, THAT NO MORE SALES WILL BE PERMITTED?

I MEAN, WHAT -- WHAT IS THE REGULATORY AUTHORITY OF THE DEPARTMENT TO

REQUIRE THAT? I MEAN, WILL THEY JUST HAVE THE REGULATORY AUTHORITY TO CUT

IT OFF WHOLESALE? WILL THEY BE EMPOWERED TO INCREASE THE COST OF

GAS-POWERED VEHICLES, TO REQUIRE THEM TO GRADUALLY INCREASE THEIR

SALES? LIKE HOW WILL THAT WORK?

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MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO ALL

OF THE SUBTLETIES OF WHAT THE REGULATIONS THAT WILL BE DEVELOPED WILL

LOOK LIKE. I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE GOAL IS VERY CLEAR AND THAT THE ABILITY

OF THE DEPARTMENT TO INFLUENCE THAT GOAL BY ENCOURAGEMENT IS -- IS ALSO

A PART OF THE POWER THAT, IF THIS PASSES, WE WILL BE GIVING TO THEM. BUT

IT IS NOT THAT THE DEPARTMENT WILL BE TAKING OVER THE MARKET. RATHER, I

THINK THE MARKET IS ALREADY MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND THAT

MANUFACTURERS SUCH AS GENERAL MOTORS AND VOLKSWAGON WILL REGARD

THIS AS AN ENDORSEMENT OF DIRECTION THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY DECIDED TO

MOVE TOWARD. IT WILL REINFORCE THAT MARKET AND MANUFACTURING DRIVEN

REALITY THAT THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH, AND I HOPE -- I HOPE THAT'S

THE CONTINUING TREND. IT CERTAINLY DOES SEEM LIKE WE'VE HAD SOME

MAJOR BREAKTHROUGHS IN THE PAST FEW YEARS AND IF -- YOU HAD

ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM MAJOR CAR COMPANIES AND CAR DEALERSHIPS OF

GOING, LIKE YOU SAID, ALL ELECTRIC. BEING SOMEBODY WITH, YOU KNOW,

SMALL CHILDREN AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS AND REPRESENTING A DISTRICT THAT

IS THE WEST SIDE OF THE HUDSON, SO MOST OF -- MOST OF MY CONSTITUENTS

OR MANY OF MY CONSTITUENTS, YOU KNOW, HAVE VEHICLES BECAUSE THEY

HAVE TO HAVE THEM, THERE'S NOT, YOU KNOW, IN-DISTRICT TRANSPORTATION, LET

ALONE TRANSPORTATION ACROSS THE HUDSON RIVER TO GET DOWN, YOU KNOW,

TO GET OVER TO WESTCHESTER OR DOWN TO NEW YORK CITY FOR THOSE THAT

COMMUTE, AND THERE CERTAINLY STILL IS A -- A MONETARY BARRIER TO

PURCHASING ALL ELECTRIC VEHICLES, ALSO, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY IF YOU HAVE

CHILDREN, TOO, AND YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THOSE, YOU KNOW, I GUESS THE

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TODDLER SIZE CAR SEATS FOR PARENTS OUT THERE, WHICH ARE MONSTROSITIES IN

A LOT OF WAYS TO GET IN THE BACK SEAT OF A VEHICLE.

SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. I

GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IS HOW -- SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT, YOU

KNOW, GOALS AND STRATEGIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW,

ISSUES THAT WE'VE DEALT WITH, AND ATTEMPTING TO GET CHARGING STATIONS,

TAX INCENTIVES, ALL THOSE THINGS THAT WE CAN HELP TO PUSH ALONG THE

MARKET I THINK ARE ALL VITAL. I GUESS, YOU KNOW, MY QUESTION IS I DON'T

REALLY KNOW WHAT 2033, 2034, 2035 ARE GOING TO LOOK LIKE. I HOPE

WE'RE IN A MUCH DIFFERENT PLACE THAN NOW AND I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND

WHAT THIS BILL REQUIRES AND WHAT IT SORT OF ATTEMPTS TO INCENTIVIZE. SO

YOU BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, COME 2036, COME HELL OR HIGH WATER, NO

MORE SALES OF NEW -- OF NEW GAS-POWERED VEHICLES AT ALL, IS THAT

CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: BECAUSE OF HELL AND HIGH

WATER, YES. LITERALLY THE CLIMATE CHANGE IS HELLISH. IT IS BRINGING GREAT

HARM TO OUR COMMUNITIES IN THE FORM OF EXTRA TROPICAL HURRICANES AND

STORMS WITH HIGH WATER, AND FLOODING BOTH ALONG OUR COASTS AND IN OUR

INTERIOR. SO YES, IT IS APPROPRIATE THAT YOU USE THAT IMAGE BECAUSE THAT

IS WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING NOW AND IT IS ACCELERATING. AND IF WE

DON'T TAKE ACTION AND SET THE STAGE FOR NEW YORK LEADING THE WAY

AMONG OUR SISTER STATES, OR HELPING TO LEAD THE WAY, THEN BY THE TIME

WE GET TO 2033 AND '34, WE WILL BE HAVING A CLIMATIC IMPACT THAT WILL

MAKE SOME PARTS OF OUR STATE ALMOST UNLIVABLE.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH, I SHARE THOSE CONCERNS.

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MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: SO THIS IS VITAL THAT WE ARE

SETTING AND WE WILL WORK TOWARD IT IN ORDER TO HELP AVOID HELL AND HIGH

WATER.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH, I SHARE THOSE CONCERNS,

BUT I GUESS MY QUESTION IS IS IT -- BUT IT'S NOT JUST A GOAL, IT'S A

REQUIREMENT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: NO, IT'S A GOAL. IT'S A GOAL.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: OKAY, IT'S A GOAL. SO IF WE GET TO

2030 OR 2032 AND WE FIND THAT SOMEHOW THE MARKET HASN'T CHANGED

AND IT HASN'T COME DOWN TO WHERE THERE'S AFFORDABILITY FOR FAMILIES, IT'S

NOT THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO -- IT'S NOT THAT THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC SET DATE,

RIGHT? WE HAD THE GOAL, MAYBE WE GOT 70 PERCENT OF THE WAY THERE AND

WE'LL KEEP AT THE GOAL? WHAT IF, YOU KNOW, THE MARKET POINT AT THE

TIME HAS FOR PART-ELECTRIC, BUT THERE'S A FUEL RESERVE. YOU KNOW, THE

TECHNOLOGY HASN'T GOTTEN TO THE POINT, BUT YOU CAN TRAVEL STILL ONLY

ABOUT 250 MILES OR SO, BUT THESE CARS ARE HYBRID AND THEY HAVE A FUEL

RESERVE IF YOU GET ABOVE THAT. WOULD THOSE BE ALLOWED TO BE SOLD IF

WE'RE STILL AT THAT POINT IN 20 -- 2035?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YES. THIS IS NOT A MANDATE.

YOU KNOW, DEALERS WILL BE ABLE TO SELL NON-ELECTRIC VEHICLES, BUT BY

SETTING THE GOAL, WE'RE MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF COORDINATING REALLY

WITH WHAT IS BEING MANUFACTURED AND WHAT THE MARKET IS DEMANDING.

WHEN WE SAY "THE MARKET," WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT WHAT OUR

CONSTITUENTS WOULD PREFER. ELECTRIC VEHICLES ARE INCREASINGLY CHIC AND

COOL AND STYLISH. SOME OF THE STYLES, IN FACT, ARE JUST BEAUTIFUL VEHICLES

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TO STAND NEXT TO OR TO EVEN DRIVE. I WOULD HOPE -- AND SO I ANTICIPATE

THAT WE ARE REINFORCING AND HOPEFULLY HELPING TO MOVE THE EXPECTATION

AND THE DESIRE OF OUR COMMUNITIES AND THEIR RESIDENTS TOWARDS

SOMETHING THAT WILL BENEFIT ALL OF US.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH, I AGREE WITH YOU. I WANT

ONE. I WAS HOPING THE LAST FAMILY VEHICLE WE COULD GET WAS THAT, BUT

THE PRICE POINT WASN'T THERE YET, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, WHERE SORT OF MY

QUESTIONS ARE. I HAVE I THINK ONE OTHER AREA I WANT TO GO TO. SO I

REPRESENT ROCKLAND COUNTY, IT BORDERS NEW JERSEY. WHAT IS THE -- HOW

WILL THIS WORK IN TERMS OF BORDER COUNTIES? WILL THAT BE TAKEN INTO

CONSIDERATION? OBVIOUSLY FOLKS CAN, IN A HOP, SKIP, AND A JUMP GET

OVER TO NEW JERSEY, THEY'D EITHER -- COULD BE ONE MILE AWAY OR EVEN AT

THE MOST POINT, YOU KNOW, TEN OR 15 MILES AWAY FROM NEW JERSEY.

WILL THE DEPARTMENT BE ABLE TO TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION THAT, YOU

KNOW, IN BORDER COUNTIES PEOPLE WOULD JUST GO ACROSS THE BORDER AND

BUY A CAR IN NEW JERSEY IF THEIR REGULATIONS ARE DIFFERENT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE BILL WOULD ALLOW THE

DEPARTMENT WIDE DISCRETION AS IT SETS UP ITS REGULATIONS. I HAVE NOT

HEARD -- YOUR QUESTION IS, I THINK, A VERY GOOD ONE. I HAVE NOT HEARD A

DEFINITIVE STRATEGY FOR DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHO WANT TO RUN ACROSS THE

BORDER, BE IT TO NEW JERSEY OR TO CANADA OR PENNSYLVANIA. YOU KNOW,

THE DEC WILL HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY TO ADDRESS THIS, AND THIS IS AN ONGOING

PROCESS OF ADJUSTING TO THE MARKET, AS WELL. AGAIN, I ANTICIPATE THAT THE

SIGNAL BEING SENT BY PASSAGE OF THIS LEGISLATION IS THAT THE FUTURE IS

ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND THAT IT'S -- IT'S PART OF BEING A GOOD CITIZEN TO DRIVE

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ONE. AND PEOPLE WILL TAKE PRIDE IN SAYING, YOU KNOW, I'M DOING THE

RIGHT THING. PEOPLE HAVE -- HAVE DONE THAT WITH OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL

INITIATIVES AND THEY LIKE TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION, PARTICULARLY IF IT'S

IN THEIR OWN BEST INTEREST AND THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE IN THEIR

FAMILIES AND THE PEOPLE THEY LOVE.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: I 100 PERCENT AGREE WITH YOU. I

JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAN GET THERE. YOU KNOW, I DON'T -- I

HONESTLY DON'T THINK ALL FAMILIES CAN GET THERE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THE

PRICE POINT OF -- OF SOME OF THE ALL-ELECTRIC VEHICLES, CERTAINLY THE

ALL-ELECTRIC LARGER VEHICLES, SO JUST --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT WAS THE CASE A COUPLE OF

YEARS AGO WITH SOLAR PANELS. THEY WERE SUPER EXPENSIVE. THE MARKET

HAS ADJUSTED AND ECONOMIES OF PRODUCTION, AS WELL AS INVENTIVENESS

HAS MADE IT SO THAT YOU CAN GO TO HOME DEPOT NOW AND BUY A SOLAR

PANEL. SO THE PRICES HAVE COME DOWN. I REMEMBER WHEN COMPUTERS

WERE IMPOSSIBLY EXPENSIVE, PRICES HAVE COME DOWN, THE MARKET HAS

ADJUSTED. I THINK THE SAME THING WILL HAPPEN HERE.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO JUST TO --

JUST TO CONCLUDE, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, YOU THINK THERE'S ENOUGH LEEWAY OR

REGULATORY AUTHORITY WITHIN THIS BILL SO THAT IN THE NEXT 14 YEARS WE WILL

BE ABLE TO, OR THE DEPARTMENT WILL BE ABLE TO ANALYZE WHAT'S GOING ON

IN THE MARKET, ANALYZE WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY, ANALYZE WHAT'S

GOING ON IN THE REGION, SET GOALS AND INCENTIVES SO HOPEFULLY WE CAN

GET THERE, BUT IF SOMEHOW THERE'S CIRCUMSTANCES BY WHICH WE CANNOT,

THEY ALSO HAVE ENOUGH REGULATORY POWER AND LEEWAY TO EXTEND THAT AND

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MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, VEHICLES ARE STILL AVAILABLE AND STILL

AFFORDABLE IF SOMEHOW - YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN - BUT

SOMEHOW WE'RE NOT ALL THE WAY THERE IN 2035. THIS IS, ONCE AGAIN, IT

SETS GOALS AND INCENTIVES, BUT THERE'S NOT A HARD AND FAST REQUIREMENT

THAT WOULD SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, IF SOMEHOW WE'RE NOT THERE, PUT US

REALLY BEHIND AN ABILITY TO, YOU KNOW, ADAPT FOR OUR RESIDENTS; IS THAT --

IS THAT A FAIR ANALYSIS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT IS FAIR AND A VERY

ARTICULATE SUMMARY. THIS IS JUST A GOAL, THERE'S PLENTY OF FLEXIBILITY AND

PLENTY OF LEAD TIME. AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL SEE MANY OF THESE

GOALS ACHIEVED IF WE DEFINE THEM AND MAKE THEM SOMETHING THAT

EVERYONE IN THE STATE IS AWARE OF.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: OKAY. THANKS, MR.

ENGLEBRIGHT.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. TAGUE.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR A COUPLE QUICK QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD FOR A COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD, MR. CHAIRMAN.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU. FIRST OF ALL, I APPRECIATE

ALL YOUR HARD WORK FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, CHAIRMAN ENGLEBRIGHT.

ALTHOUGH WE DO DIFFER ON OPINIONS WITH SOME THINGS, I APPRECIATE YOUR

DEDICATION AND COMMITMENT TO THE THINGS THAT YOU BELIEVE IN. BUT JUST

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A COUPLE QUICK THINGS --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU.

MR. TAGUE: -- IS THIS BILL GOING TO AFFECT MOTOR

SPORTS IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I BELIEVE MOTOR SPORTS ARE

GOING TO MOVE TOWARD ELECTRIC VEHICLES, ALSO. SOME OF THESE HAVE 0-60

NUMBERS THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, REALLY ASTONISHING, FASTER THAN MOST

COMPARABLE GASOLINE-POWERED VEHICLES. THEY'RE VERY POWERFUL, BUT

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT COMPETITION THERE. OFF-ROAD VEHICLES, I SHOULD

POINT OUT, ARE ALSO A PART OF THE GOAL AND PART OF THE DEVELOPMENT

STRATEGY THAT WE'RE ASKING THE DEPARTMENT TO EMBRACE.

MR. TAGUE: WELL, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS,

AGAIN, IS ANOTHER REASON THAT COULD HURT NEW YORK STATE. AS YOU

KNOW, THERE'S A NASCAR TRACK IN UPSTATE NEW YORK. THERE ARE

MANY SPEEDWAYS ACROSS THE STATE AND THERE ARE COMPETING SPEEDWAYS

IN ADJOINING STATES, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT MANY DIVISIONS IN DIRT RACING,

YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE A CAR THAT'S 25 TO 30 YEARS OLD TO RACE IN

CERTAIN DIVISIONS WITH STOCK MOTORS. SO ARE WE GOING TO SAY TO THE

PEOPLE IN NEW YORK STATE THAT YOU CAN'T COMPETE IN NEW YORK STATE

ANYMORE UNLESS YOU HAVE A BATTERY-OPERATED RACE CAR?

AND I WOULD ARGUE THE FACT, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, AS YOU

KNOW, I WAS A DAIRY FARMER. I'VE ALSO SPENT 30 YEARS AS AN -- IN UPPER

MANAGEMENT IN A HEAVY HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION COMPANY. THE REASON

FOR DIESEL-POWERED ENGINES ISN'T FOR SPEED, DIESEL POWER PRODUCES

HORSEPOWER AND IN MANY INSTANCES, YOU CANNOT COMPETE WITH THE

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DIESEL ENGINE WITH REGARDS TO HORSEPOWER. NOW IF YOU'RE COMBINING

20,000 ACRES OF CORN, OR YOU'RE PLOWING 20,000 ACRES OF FIELD, YOU

WANT A MACHINE THAT'S ALL-TERRAIN, THAT HAS HORSEPOWER, THAT'S GOING TO

BE ABLE TO GET THE JOB DONE. NOW EARLIER, ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUES

DISCUSSED THAT JOHN DEERE HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING A DECADE

FROM NOW. WELL, THAT DOESN'T HELP IN THE AGRICULTURAL BUSINESS. WE

NEED TO KNOW NOW. YOU KNOW, MANY OF OUR COLLEAGUES FROM THE CITY

WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW UPSTATE NEW YORK, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A

COLLABORATIVE EFFORT NOW BETWEEN PEOPLE IN THE CITY AND UPSTATE NEW

YORK, WE'RE FEEDING PEOPLE, WE'RE BRINGING THE FOOD TO THE PEOPLE.

WELL, IF OUR FARMERS DON'T HAVE THE PROPER EQUIPMENT TO FEED THE

PEOPLE, AGAIN, THAT PUTS NEW YORK FARMERS AT A DISADVANTAGE BECAUSE

WE'LL JUST BE BRINGING THE PRODUCTS IN FROM -- FROM ANOTHER STATE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WAS THAT A QUESTION?

MR. TAGUE: YEAH, I GUESS.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: OKAY. LOOK, I ANTICIPATE THAT

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK TOWARD ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS THAT ARE

IMPLICIT IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID. AND I AGREE WITH THE -- THE URGENCY.

PERHAPS WE COME AT THIS FROM DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS, BUT THERE IS AN

URGENCY TO ANSWER WAYS TO HAVE VERY POWERFUL TRUCKS THAT ARE ABLE TO

REPLACE DIESELS FOR REASONS THAT RELATE TO AIR QUALITY AND CLIMATE

CHANGE. AND SO, WE'VE GIVEN AN EXTRA TEN YEARS FOR TRANSITION TO OCCUR

FOR THE HEAVY -- HEAVY VEHICLES. AND NOW BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL

QUESTION ABOUT STOCK CAR RACES. THE BILL DOES NOT ADDRESS STOCK CAR

RACES AT ALL, AND IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE

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WILL COME TO WATCH ELECTRIC VEHICLES AS THEY -- ONCE THEY'RE ON THE

MARKET FOR A WHILE, THEY'LL BE NEAR THE END OF THEIR USEFUL LIVES AND

THEY'LL BE COMING IN AS DEMOLITION DERBY VEHICLES, AS WELL, PERHAPS. I

CAN'T PREDICT EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THAT REGARD.

MR. TAGUE: IF YOU DON'T MIND --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT'S NOT A PART OF THE REACH OF

-- OF THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL.

MR. TAGUE: RIGHT. WELL, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AGAIN,

MY CONCERN IS AS PART OF -- WITH REGARDS TO MOTOR SPORTS, YOU KNOW,

ELECTRIC CARS, PART OF COMPETITION WITH A STOCK CAR IS, YOU KNOW, HAVING

SOMEONE IN YOUR CREW BEING ABLE TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS TO THE ENGINE

TO MAKE YOUR CAR A LITTLE BIT FASTER THAN THE OTHER GUY. IF YOU'RE ALL

USING THE SAME ELECTRIC BATTERY, THEN YOU'VE GOT A BUNCH OF CARS GOING

AROUND THE SPEEDWAY AT THE SAME SPEED. THERE'S NO INGENUITY, THERE'S,

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOTHING THERE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, WAIT A SECOND THERE.

SOME -- SOMETIMES THE DRIVER IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF WHY ONE VEHICLE

IS ABLE TO CROSS THE FINISH LINE FIRST. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL IN TERMS OF

THE POWER OF A VEHICLE, THE SKILL OF THE DRIVER IS ALSO AN IMPORTANT

VARIABLE.

MR. TAGUE: WELL, YES, I WOULDN'T DISAGREE WITH

YOU THERE, BUT I -- BUT AGAIN, ON THE -- AGAIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH,

CHAIRMAN ENGLEBRIGHT. I ALWAYS APPRECIATE --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: MY PLEASURE.

MR. TAGUE: -- TALKING TO YOU AND HAVE A GREAT DEAL

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OF RESPECT FOR YOU, AND THANK YOU.

ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.

TAGUE.

MR. TAGUE: I JUST WANT TO KIND OF REPEAT WHAT WAS

SAID EARLIER BY ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR

AND BE CAREFUL EXACTLY HOW QUICKLY WE PUT THESE THINGS OUT THERE AND

PUT OUR STATE AT A DISADVANTAGE WHILE WE'RE THINKING WE'RE DOING THE

RIGHT THING. I THINK HOLDING BACK AND LISTENING TO, AS MANY SAID, WHAT

THE SCIENCE HAS TO SAY, THE PROFESSIONALS AND EXPERTS IN EVERY INDUSTRY

THAT THIS -- THAT A BILL LIKE THIS IS GOING TO EFFECT I THINK IS THE WAY WE

SHOULD BE MOVING FORWARD.

YOU KNOW, FOR THE REASONS THAT I DISCUSSED HERE WITH

THE SPONSOR AND A FEW OTHERS, I, LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, LOVE TO BREATHE

CLEAN AIR, WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS BILL WORK. I JUST THINK

THAT WE NEED TO PUT BETTER -- A BETTER EFFORT TOWARDS WE NEED TO HAVE ALL

THE ANSWERS. AND FOR THOSE REASONS, MR. SPEAKER, I WILL BE VOTING IN

THE NEGATIVE AND I DO URGE ALL MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME. LET'S

WORK ON SOMETHING BETTER WITH -- WITH MORE ANSWERS AND MORE FINALITY

TOWARDS THE BILL.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

MS. BYRNES.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU, EVERYBODY. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

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ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT

YIELDS.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU, SIR. THANK YOU,

GENTLEMEN. THIS I THINK WILL BE A PRETTY SHORT QUESTION. WE'VE BEEN

TALKING A LOT ABOUT CARS AND ABOUT TRUCKS. DOES THIS LEGISLATION HAVE

ANY EFFECT ON OTHER FORMS OF STREET LEGAL VEHICLES, FOR EXAMPLE,

MOTORCYCLES, ATVS, UTVS THAT MAY BE STREET LEGAL OR MAY BE USED

OFF-ROAD, OR IS IT CONFINED TO THE COMMON DEFINITION OF A CAR OR A TRUCK?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S LIMITED

JUST TO CARS AND TRUCKS. THE ZERO EMISSIONS GOALS ARE REALLY DIRECTED

TOWARD REPLACING -- OR SEEING A REPLACEMENT OVER TIME OF ALL INTERNAL

COMBUSTION MOTORS. SO OFF-ROAD VEHICLES ARE INCLUDED WITHIN THE

SCOPE, AS WELL AS STREET LEGAL VEHICLES THAT MAY HAVE THREE WHEELS OR

TWO WHEELS. EVERYTHING -- IF THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE MAKING

USE OF AN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE, THEY WOULD BE WITHIN THE SCOPE

AND INTEREST AND PURPOSE OF THIS LEGISLATION.

MS. BYRNES: ALL RIGHT. SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO

NECESSARILY BE A VEHICLE THAT IS, AGAIN, LITERALLY STREET LEGAL. I MEAN, IF

PEOPLE OWN OR ARE GOING TO BE PURCHASING UTVS OR ATVS, YOU

CONSIDER THEM TO BE WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THIS STATUTE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE DEPARTMENT IS ASKED TO

DEVELOP A STRATEGY THAT ENABLES THE MARKET TO ACCOMMODATE OUR NEED

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TO DECREASE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND PROTECT OUR CITIZENS FROM AIR

POLLUTION.

MS. BYRNES: WELL --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: SO --

MS. BYRNES: APOLOGIES.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: -- WITHIN THAT CONTEXT, THE

VEHICLE, YOU KNOW, THE COLOR OF THE VEHICLE, THE DESIGN OF THE VEHICLE

OR EVEN THE NUMBER OF WHEELS ON THE VEHICLE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS

FINDING A WAY TO PROPEL IT WITHOUT USING INTERNAL COMBUSTION MOTORS.

MS. BYRNES: WOULD THIS STRETCH TO EVEN

LAWNMOWERS, THEN? ARE WE TALKING ABOUT INTERNAL COMBUSTION

LAWNMOWERS, U-TURNS, THINGS OF THAT --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT'S NOT A VEHICLE -- THIS

PARTICULAR BILL DEALS WITH VEHICLES.

MS. BYRNES: BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE NECESSARILY

ROADWORTHY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE MAIN EMPHASIS HERE IS

ROADWORTHY, ALTHOUGH THIS DOES ALSO DEAL WITH OFF-ROAD VEHICLES. I'M

PRESUMING THAT THIS WOULD DEAL WITH VEHICLES THAT ARE ROADWORTHY OR

CAN BE TAKEN ON TO A PUBLIC HIGHWAY.

MS. BYRNES: ALL RIGHT. SO AT LEAST IN YOUR OPINION

AS THE SPONSOR --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T THINK -- I DON'T THINK

IT'S YOUR LAWNMOWER.

MS. BYRNES: SO, BUT YOU WOULD SAY THAT IF IT IS A

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VEHICLE THAT IS NOT LEGAL TO BE ON THE STREET AND IS JUST BEING OPERATED

THROUGH TRAILS IN THE WOODS, YOU KNOW, THAT -- INCLUDING SNOWMOBILES,

ATVS, UTVS, THAT THEY ARE NOT PART OF THIS PACKAGE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I BELIEVE THAT THE MAIN THRUST

IS FOR VEHICLES THAT GO ON TO PUBLIC ROADS. SOME OF THE VEHICLES THAT GO

OFF-ROAD ARE ALSO ELIGIBLE TO GO ON ROAD, SO...

MS. BYRNES: WELL, I UNDERSTAND --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HERE,

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LET THE DEPARTMENT WORK OUT SOME -- SOME

REGULATIONS IN THIS REGARD.

MS. BYRNES: MY ONLY -- BUT AS THE SPONSOR, WHAT

IS YOUR INTENTION?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: MY INTENTION IS TO REDUCE

GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.

MS. BYRNES: TYPE OF VEHICLE, ON OR OFF-ROAD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: BOTH, BOTH ON AND OFF-ROAD

VEHICLES. IF IT'S CARRYING A PERSON, IT'S A VEHICLE UNLESS IT'S --

MS. BYRNES: BUT THAT, SIR, WOULD ALSO BE --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: UNLESS IT'S A VERY SMALL

LAWNMOWER THAT YOU USE ONLY (INAUDIBLE) GARAGE AND HOUSE.

MS. BYRNES: YEAH, BUT THAT WOULD ALSO BE --

PEOPLE GET ARRESTED FOR DWI ON RIDING LAWNMOWERS, SO ARE WE -- ARE

THEY FALLING INTO THAT CATEGORY, SIR? BECAUSE IT'S PROPELLED OTHER THAN

BY MUSCLE POWER, SO IT CONSTITUTES A VEHICLE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T THINK PEOPLE WHO TAKE

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LAWNMOWERS ON TO PUBLIC HIGHWAYS ARE ALL THAT COMMON. I REALLY FIND

THAT AN INTERESTING QUESTION, BUT I DON'T -- I DON'T -- IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A

PRIMARY PART OF THE REACH OR INTENT OF THE BILL.

MS. BYRNES: I'LL HAVE TO SEND YOU ALL OF THE COURT

CASES ON PEOPLE RIDING OTHER TYPES OF VEHICLES, BECAUSE A VEHICLE HAS A

VERY BROAD DEFINITION UNDER THE VEHICLE AND TRAFFIC LAW. BUT THANK

YOU, SIR, I APPRECIATE THE ANSWERS.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, THIS LEGISLATION MAKES

NO DISTINCTION ABOUT ON OR OFF-ROAD VEHICLES, BUT IF IT'S A TRANSPORTER OF

A PERSON, IT COULD BE WITHIN THE REACH OF THE INTENT OF THE LEGISLATION.

AND SO THAT -- I DON'T ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY THAT RIDING MOWERS

MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SOMETHING THAT THE DEC WOULD WANT TO ADDRESS.

OVER TIME, IF IT'S AN INTERNAL COMBUSTION MOTOR, WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT

REPLACED FOR THE WELL-BEING OF OUR COMMUNITIES, FOR THE WELL-BEING OF

THE HEALTH OF OUR PEOPLE.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, SIR.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YOU'RE WELCOME.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CAHILL.

MR. CAHILL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. IN THE

INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE, IN THOSE TIMES WHEN I DO GET OUT AND CUT MY

GRASS, I DO USE MY BATTERY-OPERATED ELECTRIC LAWNMOWER AND MY

NEIGHBORS ARE THRILLED WITH THE IDEA THAT I CAN DO IT PRETTY MUCH FROM

7:00 IN THE MORNING ON WITHOUT DISTURBING THEM. IT'S CLEAN, IT'S QUICK,

IT'S NEED AND GUESS WHAT? IT'S CHEAP. IT'S LESS EXPENSIVE THAN

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MAINTAINING A SMELLY OLD GAS MOWER, SO I'M VERY HAPPY WITH IT. THIS

BILL DOESN'T INCLUDE THAT, BUT IF IT DID, I'D BE FINE WITH THAT, TOO.

STEVE, I WANT TO ASK A FEW QUESTIONS BECAUSE I -- I FEEL

A FOG IN THE ROOM, IN THE VIRTUAL ROOM, FROM MANY OF THE POINTS THAT

HAVE BEEN MADE ON THIS BILL AND I WAS WONDERING IF MAYBE YOU'D BE

WILLING TO -- KIND ENOUGH TO ANSWER A FEW QUESTIONS. MR. SPEAKER, WILL

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: MR. SPEAKER, I YIELD.

MR. CAHILL: THANK YOU, SIR. THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER.

STEVE, I'VE BEEN READING THIS BILL OFF AND ON FOR A

WHILE, BUT IN PARTICULAR AS THIS DEBATE WAS GOING ON WHEN I HEARD

POINTS BEING RAISED, I WAS SURPRISED TO HEAR THAT YOU ARE MANDATING

ELECTRIC VEHICLES. THAT DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE WHAT THIS BILL SAYS, AND

THAT YOU ARE DOING SO WITHOUT REGARD TO COST, WITHOUT REGARD TO

TECHNOLOGY, WITHOUT REGARD TO, YOU KNOW, EVEN SAFETY. BUT, STEVE,

DOESN'T YOUR BILL SAY THE EXACT OPPOSITE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT DOES, AND I'M GLAD THAT YOU

HAVE READ THE LANGUAGE OF THE BILL. AGAIN, THIS IS A VELVET HAND, THIS IS

NOT THE HEAVY HAND. THIS IS A WAY FOR US TO REINFORCE A PARTICULAR

STRATEGY THAT THE MARKET IS ALREADY BEGINNING TO REACT TO THAT IS IN THE

BEST INTEREST, REALLY, OF ALL OF US TO ENCOURAGE. AND THIS IS A BILL THAT

DOES SET GOALS THAT ARE IN THE DIRECTION OF -- OF BEING ABLE TO ENCOURAGE

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RATHER THAN TO COME IN AND COMMAND. SO I'M GLAD YOU PICKED UP ON

THE ACTUAL LANGUAGE, BECAUSE SOME OF -- SOME OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN

DEBATING THIS APPARENTLY DIDN'T READ IT AS CLOSELY -- READ THE BILL AS

CLOSELY AS YOU DID.

MR. CAHILL: THANKS. YOU KNOW, I ALSO WANT TO

DISABUSE ANYBODY IF THEY -- IN CASE THEY THINK OTHERWISE OF -- YOU'RE

BEING A LITTLE PORTRAYED HERE AS A HATER OF THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION

ENGINE. I HAPPEN TO HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE EXACT OPPOSITE

ABOUT YOU THAT, IN FACT, YOU'RE A CAR ENTHUSIAST, ARE YOU NOT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I AM. I HAVE A GREAT

ADMIRATION FOR THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE AND I OWN SEVERAL

COLLECTOR VEHICLES, INCLUDING AN ORIGINAL 1956 FACTORY HEMI IN MY '56

NEW YORKER, APPROPRIATELY ENOUGH, CONVERTIBLE. A VERY RARE CAR. SO

THIS FORTUNATELY WOULD -- WOULD AVOID LEGACY VEHICLES BEING

DEMONIZED. BUT OVERALL, THE IMPACT OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION IS -- IS

SOMETHING APPROACHING DEMONIC. IT IS DESTROYING OUR ATMOSPHERE, OUR

HEALTH, AND OUR EARTH. AND SO IF I RUN MY COLLECTOR CAR FOR AN HOUR OR

TWO PER YEAR, THAT -- I FEEL A LITTLE GUILTY, BUT I'M NOT USING IT TO

EXCESSES.

MR. CAHILL: WELL, I WOULD NEVER FEEL GUILTY,

STEVE, EXCEPT MAYBE FOR WHEN YOU DO PULL INTO THE ASSEMBLY PARKING

GARAGE AND YOU PARK THAT MONSTER AND YOU TAKE UP YOUR NEIGHBOR'S

PARKING SPACE ALONG WITH YOUR OWN. THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU

HAVE TO APOLOGIZE FOR, BUT IT IS A THING OF BEAUTY AND, QUITE HONESTLY, A

RELIC OF ITS TIME THAT I'M VERY GRATEFUL TO YOU AND OTHERS WHO DO ALL THEY

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CAN TO PRESERVE THOSE RELICS AND REMIND US OF A DIFFERENT TIME. WE

LOOK AT THAT CAR, AND I'VE SEEN IT, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL AUTOMOBILE.

IT LOOKS LIKE A GIANT FLAT PLANE. AS I SAID BEFORE WHILE YOU WERE

TALKING, I THINK IT IS HAS ITS OWN ZIP CODE.

(LAUGHTER)

I'M NOT SURE IF IT HAS FACTORY INSTALLED SEAT BELTS, I'M

FAIRLY CERTAIN IT DOESN'T HAVE DISC BRAKES OR ANTI-LOCK BRAKES. I QUESTION

WHETHER IT IS HAS AIRBAGS, I'M PRETTY SURE IT DOESN'T, MAYBE THE ONLY

AIRBAG IS ON THE PASSENGER.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE

THINGS, BUT IT DOES HAVE A PART OF OUR AUTOMOTIVE LEGACY, WHICH IS

WORTHY OF BEING REMEMBERED. BUT IT SHOULD BE, NO PUN INTENDED, IN

THE REARVIEW MIRROR, FOR THE MOST PART. THE FUTURE LIES WITH ELECTRIC

VEHICLES. THE FUTURE MUST BE, IN TRANSPORTATION -- THE TRANSPORTATION

SECTOR IS THE LARGEST SINGLE SOURCE OF GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND WE

REALLY NEED TO ADDRESS THIS, AND THIS BILL IS A PART OF THAT OVERALL STRATEGY

AND AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT.

MR. CAHILL: STEVE -- AND THIS WILL BE MY LAST

QUESTION ABOUT THE NEW YORKER, BUT WHAT IS THE GAS MILEAGE IN THAT

BEAST?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: OH, IT'S PROBABLY ABOUT 11

MILES PER GALLON, OR 12, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

MR. CAHILL: SO AT 11 MILES PER GALLON, IF EVERY

VEHICLE THAT WAS BUILT TODAY GOT THE SAME GAS MILEAGE AS THE VEHICLE

THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, HOW WOULD OUR FOSSIL FUEL SITUATION BE?

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FORGET -- FORGET THE POLLUTION SOLUTION, WHAT ABOUT THE FOSSIL FUEL

SOLUTION ISSUE? WOULDN'T THAT BE JUST AS DEVASTATING IF WE KEPT THAT

1950S TECHNOLOGY TODAY, IF THERE WAS NOT AN EVOLUTION OF THE

DEVELOPMENT OF THE AUTOMOBILE TO THE MODERN DAY WHERE I THINK

PROBABLY YOUR NEWER CAR, MY CAR, GETS -- GETS 30-SOME MILES TO THE

GALLON AND PROBABLY GOES A LITTLE FASTER THAN THE NEW YORKER AND IS A

LOT SAFER THAN THE NEW YORKER AND A LOT MORE COMFORTABLE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AND

THE MODERN VEHICLES SHOW THE EVOLUTION OF THE TECHNOLOGICAL AND

CREATIVE ADVANCES OF OUR SOCIETY AND SOME OF OUR MEMBERS HAVE

SPOKEN TO THAT DURING THIS DEBATE. I BELIEVE THAT THAT WILL CONTINUE, AND

IT'S IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION FOR YOUR DAILY DRIVER TO BE INCREASINGLY LESS

COSTLY AND SAFER. THAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF PUBLIC HEALTH, AS WELL.

MR. CAHILL: STEVE -- IF WE COULD, MR. SPEAKER, IF I

MAY CONTINUE TO ASK THE SPONSOR A FEW QUESTIONS. STEVE, THE -- THE

NATURE OF THIS BILL HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS ASPIRATIONAL AND IT'S BEEN

ASSERTED THAT IT'S NOT COMPLETE, BUT HERE IT IS. I THINK IT'S PRETTY

SELF-EVIDENT, IT'S PART OF AN EARTH DAY PACKAGE. IT'S NOT A -- IT'S NOT THE

BE ALL AND END ALL. IF ANYTHING, THE BILL WE PASSED A COUPLE OF YEARS

AGO, LAST YEAR, TWO YEARS AGO WAS CLOSER TO THAT BUT THAT, TOO, WAS

ASPIRATIONAL; ISN'T DATA -- ISN'T THAT THE CASE? AREN'T WE SETTING OUR

GOALS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE ARE, I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT

THIS UP BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME COMMENTS THAT INDICATED THAT

SOMEHOW THIS WAS NOT A SCIENCE-BASED BILL BECAUSE IT CONCERNED ITSELF

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WITH ASPIRATIONS AND HOPES AND DREAMS. LET ME BE CLEAR, SCIENCE AND

TECHNOLOGY MAKES POSSIBLE HOPES AND DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS. IT IS

THROUGH THE ADVANCEMENT OF SCIENCE THAT WE MAKE PROGRESS TOWARD

BETTER HEALTH OUTCOMES, MORE LIVEABLE COMMUNITIES, AND A CHANCE TO

PASS ON TO OUR CHILDREN A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE AND A SENSE OF HOPE FOR

THE FUTURE. IT IS A SCIENCE THAT MAKES THAT POSSIBLE AND SCIENCE, BELIEVE

ME, IS VERY, VERY MUCH A PART OF WHAT UNDERWRITES THE LOGIC BEHIND THIS

PARTICULAR MEASURE.

MR. CAHILL: SO ONE LAST QUESTION FOR YOU, STEVE,

BECAUSE THIS WAS ALSO A BIG FOCUS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE, YOU KNOW,

REALLY STANDING UP FOR THE POOR AND STANDING UP FOR THE ENVIRONMENT

AND STANDING UP FOR MODERN TECHNOLOGY AND SCIENCE. THEY SAID -- THEY

SAID WE CAN'T AFFORD IT. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE COST IS, OR ARE

THERE ANY OUT -- OUT THERE, ANY REASONABLE ESTIMATES OF THE COST OF

CLIMATE CHANGE TO NEW YORKERS TODAY EACH YEAR?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT IS MEASURED IN TENS OF

BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND, NO, I DON'T HAVE THE SUM OF WHAT THOSE COSTS

ARE. I CAN ONLY TELL YOU THAT THE -- THERE WAS DISCUSSION ABOUT TEXAS,

WHAT HAPPENED IN TEXAS, FOR GOODNESS SAKES, DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE

IMPACTING THAT STATE. THEY LOST A WAY OF LIFE. THEY LOST THEIR QUALITY --

AND MANY OF THEM LOST THEIR LIVES. WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR, NOT QUITE AS

DIRE, A CIRCUMSTANCE FROM STORMS THAT HAVE CRASHED INTO OUR STATE WITH

INCREASING FREQUENCY. THE 100-YEAR-STORM IS NOW ABOUT EVERY THREE OR

FOUR YEARS. THE IMPACT IS MEASURED NOT JUST IN DOLLARS, WHICH IS A HUGE

NUMBER OF DOLLARS, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, BUT IT ALSO, IN TERMS

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OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DIRECTLY IMPACTED AND THE PROPERTY THAT IS

SOMETHING THAT THEY DEPEND UPON FOR A QUALITY OF LIFE BEING DAMAGED.

AND THE HEALTH OUTCOME OF BREATHING POLLUTED AIR WITH HEART ATTACKS

AND INCREASED COVID DEATHS AND DISEASED LUNG FUNCTIONS, HOW DO YOU

-- HOW DO YOU PUT A PRICE ON THAT? I MEAN, YOU CAN, I SUPPOSE ADD UP

THE COSTS OF HOSPITAL STAYS AND -- AND MEDICAL TREATMENT, BUT IT GOES

BEYOND JUST THE DOLLARS, IT'S THE COSTS TO PEOPLE'S LIVES AND, YES, THEIR

ASPIRATIONS AND DREAMS ARE BEING SHORT-CIRCUITED BY THESE CLIMATE

CHANGE INDUCED THREATS, AS WELL.

MR. CAHILL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPONSOR.

MR. SPEAKER, I'D LIKE TO DISCUSS THE BILL FOR A FEW MOMENTS, IF I MAY,

WITH THE FEW MINUTES I HAVE LEFT.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL.

MR. CAHILL: I WAS, QUITE FRANKLY, BLOWN AWAY BY

TODAY'S DEBATE. AND TO OUR NEWER COLLEAGUES ON OUR SIDE OF THE AISLE,

BE AWARE THAT UP UNTIL LAST YEAR, THOSE ARGUMENTS WON THE DAY. THAT

WAS THE MAJORITY CONSENSUS WHEN -- WHEN THE OPPOSITE PARTY WAS IN

CONTROL OF THE OTHER HOUSE AND THAT WAS THE POLITICAL THINKING THAT

DOMINATED THE STATE AND KEPT US FROM DOING SO MANY, MANY GOOD

PROGRESSIVE THINGS. BUT, QUITE FRANKLY, THE ARGUMENTS I HEARD TODAY ON

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE WOULD HAVE BEEN PREPOSTEROUS IN 1970, LET

ALONE IN 2021.

BUT LET'S LOOK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THEY SAID. THEY

SAID WE DON'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE. THE HECK WE DON'T. WE HAVE A

GREAT INFRASTRUCTURE. IT'S IN HORRIBLE DISREPAIR, IT'S SERIOUSLY MISALIGNED

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AND IT WON'T BE FREE TO FIX IT AND MAKE IT RIGHT, BUT IT'S ALSO NOT FREE TO

LET IT SIT THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW WITH A 20 PERCENT LOSS OF POWER FROM

GENERATION TO USE IN THE OUTLET. THEY SAY WE DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY.

YES, WE DO. WE'VE BARELY SCRATCHED THE SURFACE ON CONSERVATION,

BARELY SCRATCHED THE SERVICE ON CONSERVATION. IF WE -- WE COULD ADD 15

PERCENT TO OUR GRID JUST BY REQUIRING OUR UTILITIES TO INSULATE THEIR LINES

THE WAY THOSE TECHNOLOGICAL WORLD LEADERS IN ENGLAND DO, THAT'S RIGHT,

ENGLAND; THEY LOSE 5 PERCENT OF THEIR POWER, WE LOSE 20 PERCENT OF OUR

POWER. THEY SAY THAT THE POOR CAN'T AFFORD IT, BUT THE POOR APPARENTLY

CAN AFFORD EXPENSIVE POWER, THEY CAN AFFORD ASTHMA, THEY CAN AFFORD

POLLUTION AND THEY CAN AFFORD CARS WITH THOUSANDS OF PARTS THAT WEAR

OUT AND BREAK DOWN, OKAY, I GOT IT. THEY SAY IT'S ASPIRATIONAL, BUT

EVERY SINGLE GOAL IS ASPIRATIONAL. LANDING ON THE MOON WAS

ASPIRATIONAL, EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN IS STILL ASPIRATIONAL. ELECTRIFYING

OUR STATE 100 YEARS AGO WAS ASPIRATIONAL, AND NOW THIS GOAL IS TO STOP

DEADLY POLLUTION, THAT'S A GOOD ASPIRATION. THAT'S A GOOD GOAL.

ONE COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT THAT WE'RE THE MOST

ENERGY-EFFICIENT STATE AND WE SHOULD BE PROUD. YEAH, WE SHOULD, AND

I'M VERY PROUD OF NEW YORK STATE AND I'M VERY GRATEFUL TO OUR NEW

YORK CITY NEIGHBORS FOR GIVING US THAT DISTINCTION, BECAUSE UPSTATE

NEW YORK, WHICH FALLS SOMEPLACE IN THE SECOND HALF OF -- OF -- OF THAT

EQUATION. IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN EFFICIENT APARTMENTS WHO TAKE

PUBLIC TRANSIT TO WORK OR, BETTER YET, WALK TO WORK AND LIVE VERY NEAR

THEIR JOBS, THAT ARE SAVING ALL THE ENERGY AND MAKING US LOOK GOOD. SO

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, NEW YORK CITY. WE SHOULD USE YOUR EXAMPLE A

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LITTLE BIT MORE ON A LOT OF OTHER THINGS.

SO -- SO HERE WAS A MAIN POINT OF WHAT WAS SAID BY

OUR COLLEAGUES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE IN THAT LITTLE SLIVER OVER

THERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, HOW ARE WE GOING TO

PAY FOR IT? THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE, GUESS

WHAT? THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS BILL IS ABOUT. THIS BILL IS ABOUT SETTING THE

GOAL. BUT THERE IS, HONESTLY, LEGISLATION OUT THERE AND, IN FACT, ODDLY

ENOUGH, I'M THE SPONSOR OF LEGISLATION THAT WOULD TALK ABOUT HOW TO

PAY FOR IT, AND IT'S CALLED THE CLIMATE AND COMMUNITY INVESTMENT ACT,

AND I WELCOME AND ACTUALLY NOW EXPECT A FLOOD OF SPONSORS FROM THE

OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE FOR OUR CARBON TAX BILL, AND I WOULD WELCOME --

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CAHILL, YOU'VE

WORN THAT TIME OUT.

MR. CAHILL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. PALMESANO.

MR. PALMESANO: YES, MR. SPEAKER, WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD JUST FOR A LITTLE BIT -- A FEW QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

MR. PALMESANO: THANK YOU, STEVE, I APPRECIATE

IT. I PROMISE YOU AND I PROMISE OUR COLLEAGUES, I KNOW WE DEBATED

CLCPA A COUPLE OF YEARS IN A ROW, WE USED -- I USED, LIKE, PRETTY

MUCH 30 MINUTES OF MY TIME. I PROMISE YOU I'M NOT GOING TO BE DOING

THAT TODAY BECAUSE I ONLY HAVE 15 MINUTES OF TIME. I PROMISE I WON'T

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USE IT. I JUST HAD A COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS, BECAUSE I KNOW A LOT OF

THIS DEBATE, I KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES, BUT OBVIOUSLY

IT REALLY KIND OF BOILS DOWN TO THE CLCPA AND MEETING THE

REQUIREMENTS OF THAT AFTER WE PASSED BACK IN 2019, CORRECT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THIS ENABLES PART OF THE

PREMISE OF THE CLCPA, THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. PALMESANO: AND -- AND, STEVE, ONE OF THE

QUESTIONS I WANTED TO ASK, I KNOW I BROUGHT THIS UP IN OUR DEBATE IN THE

PAST, I MENTIONED IT EARLIER ON THE FLOOR WITH THE OTHER BILL WE DID. I

THINK ONE OF THE CONCERNS I HAVE AND SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE CLCPA, THAT WAS JUST FOR NEW YORK STATE. IT

DIDN'T AFFECT OHIO OR PENNSYLVANIA, IT DIDN'T AFFECT BRAZIL, CHINA, OR

RUSSIA WHO DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW WHATEVER WE DO HERE BUT, AT THE SAME

TIME, NEW YORK STATE CONTRIBUTES .5 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL CARBON

EMISSIONS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD AND 3.3 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL CARBON

EMISSIONS IN THE UNITED STATES. SO IN ALL THIS ACTION THAT WE'RE TAKING

WITH THE ELECTRIC STATION OF VEHICLES WITH THE CLCPA, WHAT SIGNIFICANT

PROGRESS ARE WE GOING TO MAKE HERE IN NEW YORK TO ADDRESS THE -- THIS

MINIMAL AMOUNT THAT WE'RE REALLY GOING TO IMPACT? WHAT PROGRESS ARE

WE REALLY MAKING IN THE BIG PICTURE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ASKING A

QUESTION THAT IS, FOR A STATE, FOR A WHOLE STATE SUCH AS NEW YORK, THE

SAME KIND OF QUESTION THAT YOU COULD ASK FOR AN INDIVIDUAL. WHAT

DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF JUST LITTLE OLD ME IS DISREGARDING OF WHAT I

CAN DO FOR THE ENVIRONMENT? I THINK IT'S AN -- IT'S AN INTERESTING

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QUESTION FOR EARTH DAY. AND THE ANSWER IS YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU CAN

AS AN INDIVIDUAL. YOU CANNOT THROW PLASTIC INTO THE WATERWAY, YOU CAN

PICK UP TRASH THAT IS CAUGHT IN -- IN THE SHRUBBERY IN FRONT OF YOUR

HOUSE. YOU CAN DO YOUR PART AND IT WILL SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS AND

IT WILL GROW AS AN EXPECTATION THROUGHOUT YOUR COMMUNITY, UP AND

DOWN YOUR BLOCK. IN THE LARGER SENSE, THAT'S WHAT WE ARE DOING AMONG

OUR SISTER STATES. THIS IS A MIGHTY STATE, LARGE ENOUGH TO BE A -- A

COUNTRY, REALLY, SO SETTING AN EXAMPLE FOR OUR SISTER STATES I BELIEVE IS

AN IMPORTANT PART OF ACHIEVING OUR NATIONAL GOALS THAT WILL EVENTUALLY

HAVE A GREATER STATISTICAL FOOTPRINT ON THE SOLUTION. THIS IS A MATTER OF

US DOING WHAT WE CAN WITHIN THE SCOPE OF OUR POWERS. AND THIS IS A

MIGHTY STATE, OTHERS WATCH WHAT WE DO. I BELIEVE THAT SETTING A GOOD

EXAMPLE IN NEW YORK WILL HAVE A GREATER IMPACT THAN A NOMINAL

CORRECTION AND ADJUSTMENT AS PART OF -- AS A VERY SMALL PART OF THE

GLOBAL PROBLEM.

MR. PALMESANO: WELL, I -- I CAN APPRECIATE THAT

ANSWER, WE ALL HAVE TO DO OUR PART. I GUESS -- I GUESS WHAT I'M LOOKING

AT IS WHAT PART ARE WE GOING TO MAKE AN IMPACT HERE IN NEW YORK ON

THE BIGGER SCHEME WHEN WE'RE ALREADY CONTRIBUTING JUST THE MINIMAL

AMOUNTS. SO WE'RE ALREADY TAKING ACTION. WE KNOW THAT OUR CARBON

EMISSIONS HAVE DECREASED OVER THE PAST 15 YEARS SIGNIFICANTLY,

PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF NATURAL GAS. I KNOW NATURAL GAS IS A DIRTY WORD TO

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HERE. AND I KNOW, STEVE, THE POINT THAT ONE OF MY

COLLEAGUES BROUGHT UP, A COUPLE OF MY COLLEAGUES, ONE IS THE COST OF

THE ELECTRIZATION OF THE SYSTEMS TO CONVERT, ESPECIALLY WHEN 60 PERCENT

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OF HOMES IN NEW YORK, NEW YORKERS ARE RELYING ON NATURAL GAS FOR

CONVERTING -- YOU KNOW, THE COSTS AMOUNT. YOU HAVE TO ADMIT,

MOVING FORWARD WITH THIS THERE'S GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANT COSTS. I KNOW

YOU SAID THE CLCPA WILL PAY FOR IT, BUT TO CONVERT HOMES,

MANUFACTURERS CONVERTING THEIR BUSINESSES, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF

DOLLARS, THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT COST, AN IMPACT THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE

MADE UP AND PAID FOR BY SOMEONE. AND FOR SOME INDIVIDUALS,

ESPECIALLY LOWER AND MODERATE INCOME INDIVIDUALS, THAT'S GOING TO BE A

HEFTY BILL TO PAY. YOU WILL HAVE TO ADMIT, THERE IS GOING TO BE

SIGNIFICANT COSTS WITH THIS. WE'VE SEEN ESTIMATES ALONG THE WAY FROM

THE CONVERSION COSTS --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I -- I -- I DON'T ADMIT TO THAT.

I BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS THAT THE GAS RANGE THAT'S IN

YOUR KITCHEN WILL REACH THE END OF ITS USEFUL LIFE. IT WILL BE BEAT UP AND

DINGED JUST FROM NORMAL HOUSEHOLD USE, AND YOU'LL WANT TO REPLACE IT.

AND IT IS AT THE POINT OF REPLACEMENT THAT YOU WILL THEN HAVE AN

OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE, WITHOUT ADDITIONAL COST, TO ELECTRIC -- AN ELECTRIC

STOVE --

MR. PALMESANO: YEAH BUT, STEVE, YOU'RE SAYING

YOU'RE GOING TO CONVERT, YOU'RE SAYING WELL THEY CAN JUST REPLACE IT WITH

ELECTRIC, WELL, IF YOU HAVE TO REDO YOUR WHOLE PROPERTY WHETHER IT'S A

HOUSE OR WHETHER IT'S A BUSINESS FROM NATURAL GAS, IF IT'S MANUFACTURING

NATURAL GAS OR A HOUSE THAT'S BOILING WITH A BOILER FOR NATURAL GAS, THAT'S

-- YOU HAVE TO TAKE OUT THAT INFRASTRUCTURE AND IT'S TENS OF THOUSANDS OF

DOLLARS. YOU KNOW, THAT'S SIGNIFICANT COST. IT'S NOT JUST YOU WANT TO

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SWAP IT OUT FOR ELECTRIC, YOU HAVE TO IMPROVE THE WHOLE INFRASTRUCTURE

FOR THE INDIVIDUAL, FOR THE FAMILY, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE BUSINESSES. THAT'S

A SIGNIFICANT COST. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S NOT REALLY APPROPRIATE

TO DIMINISH THAT IMPACT, AND THERE'S A COST TO THAT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: (INAUDIBLE) TO MAKE

ADJUSTMENTS ANYHOW. YOUR FURNACE WILL NEED REPLACEMENT, YOUR PIPES

WILL BE CORRODED, IT IS INEVITABLE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS

GOING FORWARD. I GUESS MY POINT IS THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS GOING

TO BE IMPOSED UPON EVERYBODY SIMPLY BECAUSE WE'VE PASSED THIS. BUT

I WOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT THIS MEASURE BEFORE US, USING THE SAME

LOGIC, IS ABOUT VEHICLES. IT IS VEHICLES, THE TRANSPORTATION SECTOR THAT IS

ABOUT 40 PERCENT OF THE GREENHOUSE GAS PROBLEM. AND SO THIS MEASURE

FOCUSES IN ON WHAT WOULD LOGICALLY BE THE NATURAL REPLACEMENT PROCESS

AND TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO MOVE TOWARD AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE,

ENCOURAGE THE MARKET TO MAKE THOSE VEHICLES MORE ACCESSIBLE AT THE

TIME WHEN THERE'S A NATURAL TRANSITION AND REPLACEMENT ANYHOW. SO I

DO NOT ACCEPT THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE; IN FACT, ONCE YOU

ACQUIRE THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE, IT SHOULD BE SIGNIFICANT COST SAVINGS. YOU

DON'T HAVE TO WORRY THAT THE COST OF A GALLON OF GAS HAS GONE UP 23

CENTS SINCE TUESDAY OR SOMETHING. THINGS THAT WE SEE HAPPENING NOW

ARE IN THAT DIRECTION.

MR. PALMESANO: WELL, STEVE, I CAN APPRECIATE

YOUR COMMENTS. I KNOW WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THE OVERALL

PHILOSOPHY. SO I DON'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, BUT I KNOW THE NASCAR

TRACK WAS BROUGHT UP IN OUR CONVERSATION EARLIER. AS THE

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REPRESENTATIVE WHO REPRESENTS WATKINS GLEN INTERNATIONAL RACE TRACK

AND THE NASCAR RACETRACK WEEKEND, WHICH HAS AN ECONOMIC IMPACT

OF $200-PLUS MILLION TO OUR STATE, I CERTAINLY WELCOME YOU TO COME UP

AND SEE IT SOMETIME, AND MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES, THEY WOULD LOVE TO

SHOWCASE WHAT WE HAVE AND WHAT A GEM IT IS FOR NEW YORK STATE. SO

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND YOUR LEADERSHIP. I KNOW THIS IS A VERY

PASSIONATE ISSUE FOR YOU. I ALWAYS APPRECIATE OUR DISCUSSIONS AND OUR

CIVIL CONVERSATIONS.

SO MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. PALMESANO: YES, MR. SPEAKER, MY

COLLEAGUES. AGAIN, I THINK THIS REALLY KIND OF JUST ALL -- I KNOW WE'RE

TALKING ABOUT VEHICLES, IT GOES BACK TO THE CLCPA WHICH, YOU KNOW,

I'VE BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF, NOT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE TAKING

ACTION TO ADDRESS OUR CLIMATE ISSUES IN THE STATE AND THIS COUNTRY, I

THINK MY CRITICISM HAS BEEN, OF IT, DOING IT ALONE. TODAY WE TALKED

ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE ELECTRIFICATION OF, YOU KNOW, VEHICLES, THE COST

FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE. WE TALKED ABOUT CONVERTING PEOPLE'S HOMES

FROM -- OVER TO ELECTRIC. THAT COULD MEAN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS

FOR FAMILIES. WHAT'S THE IMPACT GOING TO BE ON OUR BUSINESSES WHO ARE

RELYING ON NATURAL GAS FOR MANUFACTURING. THIS IS SIGNIFICANT. THESE

ARE REAL DOLLARS. THESE AREN'T THINGS THAT ARE JUST GOING TO BE MADE UP.

WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT, WELL, WE PAY FOR IT WITH THE CLCPA, THAT'S THE

RATEPAYER, THAT'S THE TAXPAYER. THAT'S WHAT I GET CONCERNED ABOUT.

I -- I THINK WHEN WE PASSED THIS BILL IN 2019, 2023 IS

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WHEN EVERYTHING, THE HARD STUFF, THE MANDATES ARE GOING TO TAKE PLACE.

THE CLIMATE ACTION COUNCIL IS SUPPOSED TO COME THROUGH AND I KNOW

IT'S OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE (INAUDIBLE). THE THING THAT'S GREEN ABOUT IT

IS THE GREEN DOLLARS IT'S GOING TO COST IN HIGHER UTILITY RATES, THE GREEN

DOLLARS IT'S GOING TO COST IN -- IN TAXPAYERS. THE GREEN DOLLARS IT'S GOING

TO COST IN LOST JOBS IN MANUFACTURING AND FARMS THAT LEAVE OUR STATE.

ESTIMATES HAVE SHOWN THAT IT WOULD COST -- THERE WAS A STUDY OUT OF

MASSACHUSETTS I CITED BEFORE WHEN WE -- $6- TO $8 BILLION A YEAR TO

COMPLY WITH THIS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO CONVERT OUR HOMES

FROM NATURAL GAS TO ALL ELECTRIC WITH APPLIANCES, OUR MANUFACTURERS.

AND I THINK THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS YES, WE HAVE TO DO OUR OWN PART,

BUT WE ARE DOING OUR PART. WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT. OUR CARBON

EMISSIONS HAVE DECREASED SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE PAST 15, 20 YEARS

BECAUSE OF NATURAL GAS. AND NEW YORK CONTRIBUTES JUST .5 PERCENT OF

THE TOTAL CARBON EMISSIONS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD AND 3.3 PERCENT OF THE

TOTAL CARBON EMISSIONS IN THE UNITED STATES. BUT THE CLCPA DOESN'T

AFFECT CHINA, RUSSIA OR BRAZIL. THEY'RE GOING TO KEEP BURNING COAL AND

DOING WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT THEM, THEY

DON'T CARE ABOUT THE OVERALL ENVIRONMENT. IT DOES NOTHING TO IMPACT --

MAKE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT. IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO AFFECT

PENNSYLVANIA OR OHIO.

AND I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE FACT IS, YES, I SUPPORT

GREEN ENERGY. I SUPPORT WIND AND SOLAR. I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT

PART OF OUR PORTFOLIO. BUT AGAIN, I WOULD TALK ABOUT OUR PORTFOLIO LIKE

YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR -- YOUR RETIREMENT PORTFOLIO. YOU DON'T PUT IT ALL IN

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CASH, STOCKS, AND BONDS, YOU DIVERSIFY THAT PORTFOLIO TO PROTECT IT, TO

MAKE IT MORE RESILIENT. WE HAVE TO DO THE SAME THING FOR OUR FUEL

PORTFOLIO, ENERGY PORTFOLIO. WIND, SOLAR, HYDRO, SURE; NUCLEAR YES, BUT

YES, NATURAL GAS SHOULD BE A PART OF IT. I JUST HAVE BEEN DISMAYED BY

THE ANTI-NATURAL GAS SENTIMENT OF THIS HOUSE AND THIS ADMINISTRATION.

IT JUST MAKES NO SENSE TO ME WHATSOEVER.

WHEN YOU'RE CONVERTING BOILERS IN NEW YORK CITY

FROM DIRTY OIL BOILERS TO NATURAL GAS, YOU'RE GOING TO GET AWAY FROM

THAT, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC. AND TO HAVE A SOLID ENERGY POLICY, YES, IT

NEEDS TO BE CLEAN, BUT IT ALSO NEEDS TO BE AFFORDABLE AND RELIABLE. WE

FOCUS SO MUCH ON THE CLEAN SIDE OF IT, BUT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THE

AFFORDABILITY AND THE RELIABILITY, EVEN WITH THE SUN -- SOLAR AND WIND. IF

IT'S NOT -- IF THE SUN'S NOT SHINING, THE WIND'S NOT BLOWING, YOU'RE NOT

PRODUCING ENERGY. YOU STILL NEED THAT BACKUP FROM THAT CONVENTIONAL

ENERGY RESOURCE.

WE NEED TO HAVE BALANCE IN THIS THINKING. WE NEED TO

HAVE BALANCE IN THIS POLICY, AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT EXPENSE THAT'S GOING TO -- AS WE MOVE

FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD IT'S GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON OUR ECONOMY.

YES, THERE ARE GOING TO BE SOME POSITIVE THINGS THAT WILL HAPPEN. I'M

NOT SAYING THAT, I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULDN'T INVEST IN RENEWABLES. IT

SHOULD BE A PART OF OUR PORTFOLIO, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE BALANCED. AND WE

ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT THE AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY OF WHAT WE'RE

DOING HERE.

AND THAT'S WHY I REALLY FIRMLY BELIEVE, BEFORE WE FULLY

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IMPLEMENT THE MANDATES OF THE CLCPA, WE SHOULD DO A FULL, TRUE

COST-BENEFIT STUDY ANALYSIS OF IT TO SHOW THE RESIDENTS OF THIS STATE, THE

BUSINESSES OF THIS STATE, KNOW WHAT THEY'RE EXPECTED TO DO, BECAUSE I

DON'T THINK THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HIT THEM YET. THEY HAVE NO IDEA

WHAT'S GOING TO HIT THEM YET. IT'S COMING, AND WE ALREADY KNOW, I

ALREADY TALKED -- $1- TO $2 BILLION A YEAR, HIGHER TAXES, FEES, AND

ASSESSMENTS ON THEIR UTILITY BILLS, MORE IS COMING. WE'VE SAID IT, $6- TO

$8 BILLION A YEAR IN ANNUAL COSTS TO COMPLY WITH THE CLCPA, TENS OF

THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN CONVERSIONS COST. SO WE SHOULD BE DOING A FULL

COST-BENEFIT STUDY ANALYSIS BEFORE WE MOVE FORWARD. WE OWE THE

TAXPAYERS AND RATEPAYERS OF THE STATE AT LEAST THAT, ESPECIALLY WHEN

THEY HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST UTILITY RATES IN THE COUNTRY. WE NEED TO

BE THOUGHTFUL IN THAT PROCESS.

I APPRECIATE THE DISCUSSION AND THE SPONSOR, I KNOW

WHERE HIS HEART IS, I KNOW HE'S COMMITTED TO THIS ISSUE, I RESPECT HIM,

AND JUST BECAUSE SOME OF US VOTE AGAINST THIS BILL DOES NOT MEAN WE

DON'T WANT TO TAKE ACTION TO IMPROVE OUR CLIMATE THROUGH RESOURCES.

IT'S JUST HOW WE GO ABOUT IT AND SOME OF THE ALL-IN APPROACH THAT WE'RE

TAKING WITH SOME OF THESE CAUSES. THAT'S WHERE MY CONCERNS ARE, I

HAVE CONCERNS FOR THE RATEPAYERS OF THIS STATE, I HAVE CONCERN FOR THE

TAXPAYERS OF THIS STATE. I'M CONCERNED ABOUT MORE AND MORE

BUSINESSES LEAVING OUR STATE. I KNOW WE TALK ABOUT THIS, WE WILL LEAD

THE NATION, BUT WHAT WE'RE LEADING THE NATION IN IS OUT-MIGRATION. WE

HAVE MORE NEW YORKERS LEAVING OUR STATE, 1.4 MILLION SINCE 2010.

OUR BUSINESSES ARE LEAVING THE STATE, OUR MANUFACTURERS ARE LEAVING

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THE STATE, OUR FARMERS ARE GOING TO BE LEAVING THE STATE AS THIS GETS

FULLY IMPLEMENTED BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO COMPLY;

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE CAR DEALERS? I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT HERE,

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT FOR THE

OVERALL IMPACT THIS IS GOING TO HAVE ON OUR OVERALL ECONOMY. IT NEEDS

TO BE A BALANCED APPROACH. IT IS NEEDS TO BE CLEAN, YES, BUT IT ALSO

NEEDS TO BE AFFORDABLE AND RELIABLE. AND WHAT I'VE SEEN COME OUT OF

THIS CHAMBER IS NOT SO MUCH A CONCERN ABOUT THE AFFORDABILITY AND THE

RELIABILITY. AND FOR US TO HAVE A SOLID ENERGY POLICY THAT WORKS, WE

NEED TO HAVE AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY, AS WELL, AND WE NEED TO HAVE

FUEL DIVERSITY TO MAKE THAT WORK, AS WELL.

SO FOR THOSE REASONS, MR. SPEAKER, I HAVE GREAT

RESPECT FOR THE SPONSOR AND WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO, BUT FOR THESE

REASONS, I'M GOING TO BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND I ENCOURAGE MY

COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. BURDICK.

MR. BURDICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. AND I'M

WONDERING IF I COULD ASK THE SPONSOR TO YIELD TO JUST TO ANSWER A FEW

QUESTIONS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT WILL

YIELD.

MR. BURDICK: THANK YOU SO MUCH. WELL, STEVE,

YOU AND I GO BACK A LITTLE WAYS, SO I THINK THAT YOU MAY RECALL SOME

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THINGS, PROBABLY YOU BETTER THAN ME, BUT I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAPPEN

TO RECALL BACK IN 1972 WHEN THE CLEAN AIR ACT AND THE CLEAN WATER

ACT WERE ENACTED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT UNDER THEN -- THE LEAD

UNDER THAT IS, IF MEMORY SERVES, WAS SENATOR ED MUSKIE OUT OF THE

STATE OF MAINE; I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL THAT?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I REMEMBER THE EVENT, YOU

ARE REMEMBERING PARTS OF IT THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT IT WAS A

LANDMARK MOMENT IN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AND IT FOLLOWED CLOSELY

THE AWARENESS IN PUBLIC EDUCATION PROCESS BROUGHT ON BY THE

PUBLICATION OF SILENT SPRING JUST A DECADE EARLIER.

MR. BURDICK: AND DO YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL THAT

THERE WAS, AT THAT TIME, CONSIDERABLE SKEPTICISM ABOUT THAT ACTION AND

ABOUT WHETHER WE, AS A NATION, SHOULD BE DOING THIS?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF

CONTROVERSY. ANY TIME THERE'S A BIG CHANGE IN -- IN LAW, YOU'RE GOING

TO HAVE VARYING POINTS OF VIEW. IT IS HAS PROVEN TO BE ENORMOUSLY

POPULAR AND EFFECTIVE. THOSE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT LANDMARKS IN THE

HISTORY AND PROGRESS OF OUR -- OF OUR NATION.

MR. BURDICK: AND DO YOU THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY

THAT IT HAS A HAD AN ENORMOUS IMPACT IS TERMS OF CLEANING UP INDUSTRY,

CLEANING UP IN ALL ASPECTS OF OUR ECONOMY THAT RESULTS IN POLLUTION TO

OUR AIR AND WATER?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I THINK THAT IS A FAIR AND

ACCURATE CONCLUSION THAT YOU -- THAT YOU ARE DRAWING BASED UPON THINGS

THAT YOU CAN SEE EVERYWHERE. OUR STREAMS ARE CLEANER, THE RIVERS ARE

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NO LONGER CATCHING FIRE IN OHIO. WE HAVE MADE -- WE'VE MADE GREAT

PROGRESS IN TERMS OF CLEANING UP INDUSTRIAL SITES THAT USED TO JUST BE

PLACES THAT WE WOULD TURN OUR BACKS ON, AND WE'RE REPURPOSING MANY

OF THOSE SITES AND THEY, VERY OFTEN, ARE IN OUR URBAN NEIGHBORHOODS AND

OUR WATERFRONT PROPERTIES THAT ARE NOW BECOMING PARK LAND, YES.

MANY, MANY GREAT STEPS FORWARD HAVE BEEN TAKEN AS A RESULT OF THE

PASSAGE OF THOSE IMPORTANT LAWS.

MR. BURDICK: AND, YOU KNOW, THINKING IN TERMS

OF OUR UPSTATE COLLEAGUES, AND I THINK OF THE ADIRONDACKS AND I RECALL

READING ABOUT ACID RAIN AND THE IMPACT THAT IT HAD IN -- TO TROUT THAT

WERE IN LAKES THAT WERE IN THE ADIRONDACKS. AND DO YOU THINK IT'S FAIR

TO SAY THAT THE CLEAN AIR ACT DID HAVE SOME IMPACT ON THAT SINCE SO

MUCH OF THAT OCCURRED FROM MID-WESTERN COAL BURNING PLANTS? DO YOU

THINK THAT THAT MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME KIND OF IMPACT IN TERMS OF

REDUCING ACID RAIN IN THE ADIRONDACKS AND FOR AFFECTING CROPS AND

FARMLANDS UP THERE, AS WELL?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I KNOW IT HAS HAD AN IMPACT.

WE HAVEN'T TOTALLY SOLVED THAT PROBLEM YET, BUT CERTAINLY WE HAVE

MOVED IN THE DIRECTION OF BEGINNING TO SOLVE IT, YES.

MR. BURDICK: AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW

WHETHER YOU RECALL, AS WELL, ANOTHER CONTROVERSY THAT WAS THE

CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD WHICH, TO SOME, YOU KNOW, WAS JUST

CONSIDERED THE DEVIL INCARNATE AND INTERESTINGLY, IT WAS ACTUALLY, AND

THIS WAS BEFORE MY TIME, BUT IT WAS CREATED IN 1967 UNDER A LAW THAT

THEN-GOVERNOR RONALD REAGAN HAD SIGNED. BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, IT

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WASN'T THAT LONG AFTERWARDS THAT THEY ISSUED STANDARDS FOR VEHICLES THAT

HAD TO BE SOLD IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WITH RESPECT TO FUEL EFFICIENCY.

AND I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL THAT CONTROVERSY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I RECALL, AND WHEN CALIFORNIA,

A SISTER STATE THAT IS A GREAT TRENDSETTING STATE LIKE NEW YORK, WHEN

CALIFORNIA TOOK THAT STEP, THE MANUFACTURERS ADJUSTED AND THE

CALIFORNIA STANDARDS BECAME NATIONAL STANDARDS. I'M GLAD YOU'RE

BRINGING THIS UP BECAUSE THE IMPACT THAT WE MIGHT HAVE HAS A GREAT

STATE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF OUR NATION ON THE EAST COAST WITH THIS

MEASURE AND WITH OUR OTHER EFFORTS TO CLEAN UP AIR, I BELIEVE IT COULD

HAVE THE SAME IMPACT THAT THE CALIFORNIA AIR STANDARD THAT YOU, QUITE

CORRECTLY REFERRED TO AS LANDMARK AND IMPORTANT, WE COULD -- WE COULD

SEE A SIMILAR -- SIMILAR REACTION FROM OUR SISTER STATES. AND THAT IS,

INDEED, PART OF -- OF WHAT I HOPE HAPPENS.

MR. BURDICK: YOU KNOW, I'M ALSO WONDERING --

VERY INTERESTING WHAT YOU HAD SAID A FEW MOMENTS AGO ABOUT THE

POPULARITY OF TAKING THESE STEPS WHICH AT ONE POINT WERE REGARDED AS

VISIONARY, BUT I THINK REALLY HAVE BECOME MAINSTREAM. AND AS I

UNDERSTAND, THERE WAS A -- I THINK IT'S A SIENA POLL THAT JUST WAS

PUBLISHED AND OVER 60 PERCENT OF NEW YORKERS FEEL THAT WHAT WE'RE

DOING TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT IS ACTUALLY NOT HARMING THE ECONOMY.

AND AS I ALSO UNDERSTAND, SO MUCH OF WHAT WE'RE DOING, AND MAYBE

YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THIS, I THINK YOU PROBABLY WOULD BE, THAT THE GREEN

INDUSTRY HERE IN NEW YORK IS ONE OF THE MOST VIBRANT INDUSTRIES IN THE

ECONOMY AND ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING. AND I'M WONDERING WHAT --

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WHETHER YOU MIGHT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THAT OR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, YES, I HAVE SOME

INSIGHT INTO THAT. I WAS THE ORIGINAL PRIME SPONSOR OF SEVERAL PIECES OF

LEGISLATION THAT HELPED LAUNCH THE -- THE SOLAR INDUSTRY IN THIS STATE.

AND I'M -- I'M -- I'M PLEASED TO SEE THAT THAT INDUSTRY IS THRIVING AND

GROWING. AT THE TIME THAT WE PASSED THE SOLAR CHOICE ACT AND THE

NET-METERING ACT FOR WIND AND THE NET-METERING ACT FOR SOLAR, THOSE

WERE BILLS THAT I HAD CHAMPIONED AND SPONSORED, AND IT SEEMED

FAR-FETCHED THAT WE WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, A -- A VIGOROUS RESPONSE IN

A SHORT NUMBER OF YEARS, BUT THAT IS, IN FACT, WHAT HAPPENED. I THOUGHT

IT WOULD TAKE LONGER, BUT THE PUBLIC WAS ENTHUSIASTIC AND IT CONTINUES

TO BE. AND NOW WE ALSO HAVE THE INCREASED KNOWLEDGE BASED UPON

OUR SCIENCE THAT INDICATES THAT -- THAT MOVING TOWARD RENEWABLES IS

VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE HEALTH OF NOT ONLY INDIVIDUALS, BUT FOR THE

HEALTH OF THE PLANET.

MR. BURDICK: WELL, I COULDN'T AGREE MORE AND,

YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR LEADERSHIP IN THIS AREA AND THAT

FINALLY, YOU'RE SEEING NOW THAT LEGISLATION THAT YOU HAD CHAMPIONED FOR

YEARS, THANKS TO A CHANGE IN THE COMPOSITION OF THE STATE SENATE NOW

HAS THE PROSPECT OF BECOMING LAW. AND, YOU KNOW, I SHARE YOUR VIEW

ABOUT OUR COLLEAGUES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CONTINENT, PERHAPS IF WE

HERE IN NEW YORK CAN TAKE A SIMILAR LEADERSHIP AND VISIONARY ROLE,

THEN THAT CAN CREATE A NATIONAL STANDARD, THAT CAN MAKE WHAT NOW MAY

BE ASPIRATIONAL AND MAKE IT ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT BECOMES REALITY.

AND I ACTUALLY THINK THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR HESITANCY OF NOT

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

MAKING THIS MANDATORY. I WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THIS IF IT WERE

MANDATORY, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, BECAUSE LIKE OUR COLLEAGUE, DEBORAH

GLICK, I HAPPEN TO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF FAITH IN THE INGENUITY AND

ENTREPRENEURIAL SPIRIT IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE ABILITY THAT WE HAVE IN

ORDER TO MEET THESE GOALS -- MORE THAN GOALS. I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND, BY

THE WAY, THE CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNITY PROTECTION ACT NOT TO

BE GOALS, BUT REQUIREMENTS AND THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING EVERYTHING THAT

WE POSSIBLY CAN.

YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE DEBATE ALMOST SEEMS

REMINISCENT TO THE DEBATE THAT'S GONE ON IN WASHINGTON WHERE

COLLEAGUES, THE COUNTERPART OF OUR COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE HAD BEEN

TRYING FOR SO MANY YEARS TO REPEAL THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, AND NOW

IT'S BECOME MAINSTREAM AND NOW SO MANY AMERICANS HAVE SEEN THIS AS

SOMETHING THAT'S ESSENTIAL. AND, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE

CONVERSATION ABOUT COST, BECAUSE I THINK YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT,

CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT, AND THAT IS WHAT IS THE COST IF WE DON'T DO THIS?

WHAT IS THE COST IF -- THE BILLIONS, I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S PROBABLY CLOSER TO

TRILLIONS, WITH THE RISING IN THE SEA LEVEL AND, YOU KNOW, ARE WE GOING

TO FIND THAT IN 15, 20 YEARS MANHATTAN ISLAND IS UNDER WATER? WHAT'S

GOING TO BECOME OF THIS STATE IF WE DON'T TAKE ACTION? AND, YOU KNOW,

I KIND OF LOOK AT OUR PLANET AND ALL OF US WHO LIVE ON IT ALMOST AS -- I

THINK OF THE FROG, AND APPARENTLY - I WOULDN'T TRY THIS, BUT I UNDERSTAND

IT'S TRUE - THAT IF YOU TAKE A FROG AND YOU PUT THEM IN BOILING WATER

IMMEDIATELY, THEY'RE GOING TO JUMP OUT, THAT FROG'S GOING TO JUMP OUT.

BUT IF YOU PUT IT IN WATER AND TURN ON THE HEAT AND LET IT HEAT SLOWLY,

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GUESS WHAT? IT'S GOING TO DIE IN THAT WATER. AND I SEE OUR PLANET

ALMOST LIKE THAT, THAT IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING THEN THE PLANET AND ALL

OF ITS INHABITANTS WILL DIE. AND I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT THAT IS ANYTHING

AT THIS POINT THAT PEOPLE CAN REFUTE. THAT'S THE SCIENCE, THAT'S THE

SCIENCE.

AND I HAPPEN TO BE THE PROUD OWNER OF AN ELECTRIC

VEHICLE, AND I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS THE CONCERN THAT WAS EXPRESSED BY ONE

OF OUR COLLEAGUES ABOUT COST. BOY, I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I HAVE BEEN

SAVING SO MUCH MONEY WITH THAT VEHICLE, AND NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF NOT

HAVING TO PAY FOR GASOLINE, THERE ARE NO MOVING PARTS. YOU KNOW, I

FEEL VERY BADLY FOR MY LOCAL MECHANIC BECAUSE HE'S A WONDERFUL

FELLOW, WE'VE BEEN BRINGING HIM BUSINESS FOR YEARS, ALL THE YEARS THAT

WE'VE LIVED IN BEDFORD, AND I -- I HAVEN'T BEEN GIVING HIM ANY BUSINESS

FOR MY CAR BECAUSE IT DOESN'T NEED ANY KIND OF MAINTENANCE. THAT

SAVES, OVER THE LIFE OF A CAR, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS LITERALLY. I

MEAN -- AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD JUST ASK PEOPLE TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK.

AND THAT'S NOW, THAT'S NOT LOOKING AT 2035. AND HERE WE HAVE THE

HEADLINE FROM THE WASHINGTON POST, WHEN GM SAID THAT THEY WERE

GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE MANUFACTURE OF GASOLINE AND LIGHT-DUTY SUVS

WITH AN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE BY 2035.

AND SO, CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT, I JUST HAVE TO COMMEND

YOU AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR VISION AND YOUR LEADERSHIP, AND HAVE TO

THANK THE SPEAKER, AS WELL, FOR HAVING THIS COME TO THE FLOOR.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: ABSOLUTELY.

MR. BURDICK: I'M SO EXCITED TO BE PART OF THIS

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CHAMBER WHEN WE ARE TAKING SUCH IMPORTANT ACTION TO MOVE THINGS

FORWARD. AND I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I'M ABSOLUTELY FLUMMOXED BY OUR

COLLEAGUES ON THE -- ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE BY OPPOSING GOALS,

THESE ARE GOALS, AND THEY ARE OPPOSING GOALS. AND THAT'S SOMETHING

THAT'S INCOMPREHENSIBLE TO ME.

ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: I THOUGHT YOU WERE

ON THE BILL, SIR, BECAUSE YOU CERTAINLY HAVEN'T ASKED A QUESTION IN 15

MINUTES.

(LAUGHTER)

MR. BURDICK: OH, OKAY. I'M ON THE BILL.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, I COSPONSORED THIS ALONG WITH CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT AND

I'M PROUDLY VOTING FOR IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR PATIENCE AND,

CHAIR ENGLEBRIGHT, THANK YOU FOR YOURS, AS WELL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ONE OTHER ISSUE, SIR.

WHEN YOU'RE ADDRESSING THE BODY, YOU SHOULD REFRAIN FROM USING OTHER

COLLEAGUE'S NAMES IN YOUR STATEMENT, PLEASE.

MR. BURDICK: I WILL, INDEED. MY APOLOGIES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU VERY

MUCH.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT A4302. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY MEMBER

WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THE CONFERENCE POSITION

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IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS

PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. THOSE WHO WISH

TO SUPPORT IT SHOULD CONTACT THE MINORITY LEADER. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES WILL GENERALLY BE VOTING IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE ON THIS GREAT PIECE OF LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, SHOULD THERE BE

MEMBERS WHO DESIRE TO BE AN EXCEPTION, THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO

CONTACT THE MAJORITY LEADER'S OFFICE AND THEIR VOTE WILL BE PROPERLY

RECORDED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MRS.

PEOPLES-STOKES.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE, MRS. BARRETT.

MRS. BARRETT: THANK YOU. THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. LET ME SAY AT THE OUTSET THAT I SUPPORT

THIS LEGISLATION AND I SUPPORT THE GOALS THAT HAVE BEEN SET FORTH, BUT I

REALLY WANT TO MAKE THE POINT THAT WE HAVE TO DO THE HARD WORK IN

BETWEEN OF ENSURING THAT IF WE'RE ADVANCING A CLIMATE LEADERSHIP AND

COMMUNITY PRESERVATION ACT THAT WE ALSO GIVE EQUITY TO THE

COMMUNITY PRESERVATION PIECE. IN MY DISTRICT, WHICH IS VERY RURAL AND

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HAS BEAUTIFUL FARMLAND AND GREAT VIEWSHEDS AND THE ECONOMY IS IN

LARGE PART BASED ON TOURISM, WE ARE ALREADY BEING OVERWHELMED BY THE

IDEA OF HUGE, MEGA SOLAR FIELDS AND OTHER SITES THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT IF

YOU WERE LOOKING AT THIS EQUITABLY WOULD TAKE UP MANY, MANY

COMMUNITY'S VERSIONS OF, YOU KNOW, THEIR QUOTA FOR THEIR SHARE AND I

JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE COGNIZANT AS WE MOVE FORWARD OF

THE PROTECTIONS FOR HOME RULE AND FOR COMMUNITIES TO HAVE SOME

AUTONOMY WHEN THEY'RE SETTING ZONING POLICIES AND EQUALLY COMMITTED

TO OUR GOALS, BUT NOT WANTING TO CARRY THE FULL SHARE, THE FULL WATER FOR

THE STATE OF NEW YORK AND MAKE SURE THAT FARMLAND AND WETLANDS AND

NATIVE HABITATS AND OPEN SPACES ARE ALSO PROTECTED AND PART OF THE

CONVERSATION HERE. I VOTE IN THE POSITIVE, IN THE AFFIRMATIVE, BUT I HOPE

THAT MY WORDS WILL ALSO REACH EARS AND -- AND BE TAKEN IN

CONSIDERATION, AS WELL. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU. MRS.

BARRETT IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. RAJKUMAR.

MS. RAJKUMAR: THE CLIMATE CRISIS IS A REALITY AND

IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS CITIZENS AND GOVERNMENT LEADERS TO ADDRESS IT

FOR THE SAKE OF OUR CHILDREN AND OUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN. YOUNG PEOPLE

IN RECENT YEARS HAVE BEEN THE LEADERS ON CLIMATE JUSTICE, BECAUSE IT IS

ABOUT OUR FUTURE. THE DESTRUCTIVE EFFECTS OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS ARE

READILY APPARENT AROUND THE WORLD, WITH INCREASING VIOLENT HURRICANES,

CITIES FACING DRINKING WATER SHORTAGES AND MORE EXTREME WEATHER

EVENTS WHICH HAVE DISPLACED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. THE TRANSPORTATION

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SECTOR EMITS MORE CARBON POLLUTION THAN ANY OTHER SECTOR OF THE

ECONOMY AND TODAY, WE WILL COMMIT TO RESTRUCTURING TO CHANGE THE

SITUATION. IT IS OUR MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO SO.

ADDRESSING THE CLIMATE CRISIS IS A LIFE OR DEATH

CHALLENGE FOR OUR GENERATION. BY SETTING AMBITIOUS GOALS FOR ZERO

CARBON EMISSIONS TODAY, NEW YORK STATE IS LEADING IN THE RACE TOWARDS

A ZERO-CARBON WORLD. WE CHALLENGE OTHER STATES AND COUNTRIES TO SET

GOALS AS BOLD AS US. TODAY, NEW YORK STATE MAKES A COMMITMENT TO

BEING ON THE GROUND FLOOR OF THE EXCITING AND GROWING GREEN ENERGY

ECONOMY. THIS LEGISLATION WILL SPUR INVESTMENT IN ELECTRIC VEHICLES

AND IN RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCES; INDEED, THE NUMBER OF ELECTRIC

VEHICLES ON THE ROAD HAS INCREASED BY FOUR TIMES IN THE PAST FOUR YEARS.

IT'S ESTIMATED THAT HALF OF ALL BUSES IN THE WORLD WILL BE ELECTRIC WITHIN

THE NEXT FIVE YEARS. THE BURGEONING GREEN ECONOMY HAS THE POTENTIAL

TO CREATE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF JOBS. IT'S A SUSTAINABILITY REVOLUTION

AND TODAY, WE ARE COMMITTING TO HELP LEAD IT. I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. RAJKUMAR IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. STECK.

MR. STECK: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER. I

WANT TO EXPRESS MY EXTREMELY STRONG SUPPORT FOR THIS LEGISLATION. I

OFTEN TALK TO MY MORE MODERATE POLITICAL FRIENDS AND TELL THEM THAT

HOW IS MODERATION GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF CLIMATE CHANGE? IT'S

NOT. SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS

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WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO RAISE REVENUE TO FUND GREEN ENERGY.

ASPIRATIONAL BILLS ARE GREAT, BUT WE REALLY NEED TO DO THINGS THAT ARE

MORE REAL. WITH THAT, I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. STECK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. GLICK.

MS. GLICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. TO EXPLAIN

MY VOTE. I'M REMINDED, ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUE'S ADMONITION THAT WE

MAINTAIN A COMMITMENT TO OPEN SPACE, FARMLAND, OUR FORESTS. WE

"PAVED PARADISE AND PUT UP A PARKING LOT" IS WHAT COMES TO MIND. SO

WE NEED FEWER PARKING LOTS, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO HAVE RENEWABLE

ENERGY. AND ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUES DID REFER TO THE FACT THAT IF IT'S

CLOUDY, YOU KNOW, SOLAR ENERGY DOESN'T WORK. WELL, IT'S MUCH LESS

EFFICIENT, FOR SURE, BUT WE ALSO -- THERE ARE BATTERY STORAGE CAPACITY THAT

CAN LEAVE YOUR -- CAN MAINTAIN YOUR ENERGY FOR ANYWHERE FROM ONE TO

FIVE DAYS. SO AS WE IMPROVE OUR SCIENCE ON BATTERY STORAGE, WE'LL

SOLVE MANY OF THESE PROBLEMS. I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND VOTE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GLICK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MRS. GRIFFIN.

MRS. GRIFFIN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

PERMITTING ME TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I APPRECIATE THE STEWARDSHIP,

FORESIGHT, ACUMEN, AND ASPIRATION OF OUR ENVIRONMENTAL CHAIR AND

SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION. IF WE DON'T BEGIN TO INITIATE PROVISIONS NOW

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TO PRESERVE AND PROTECT OUR ENVIRONMENT, WHEN WILL WE? OUR CHILDREN

AND GRANDCHILDREN ARE COUNTING ON US TO ACT. IT IS KEY TO NOTE THAT THIS

SCIENTIFIC, FACT-BASED APPROACH IS GOAL-ORIENTED AND REMAINS FLEXIBLE

BASED ON THE PROGRESS AND DEVELOPMENT OF SUSTAINABLE VEHICLES THAT ARE

AFFORDABLE. THANK YOU TO OUR SPEAKER FOR BRING THIS AMBITIOUS BILL AND

THE ENTIRE EARTH DAY PACKAGE TO THE FLOOR. I AM PROUD TO COSPONSOR

THIS IMPORTANT LEGISLATION AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. WALCZYK TO

EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. WALCZYK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE. WE KNOW THAT THERE'S ECONOMY DENIERS WITHIN THIS

CHAMBER ACTING LIKE ELON MUSK WOULD HAVE NEVER BROUGHT TESLA

FORWARD, WE WOULDN'T HAVE ELECTRIC VEHICLES TODAY IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR

THE NEW YORK STATE LEGISLATURE AND WE WON'T HAVE THEM IN THE FUTURE

UNLESS WE PUT LEGISLATION FORWARD LIKE THIS. THIS -- THIS LEGISLATION AND

THE IDEA THAT WE NEED TO MICROMANAGE THE ECONOMY THAT'S ALREADY

MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION IS GOING TO ULTIMATELY HURT POOR FAMILIES IN

NEW YORK STATE. IN THE ECONOMY, THIS IS GOING TO HELP VERMONT, IT'S

GOING TO HELP PENNSYLVANIA AUTO DEALERS SELL MORE VEHICLES.

I HEARD THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT DOESN'T EXIST YET; LET'S

NOT BE SCIENCE DENIERS WHILE WE'RE BEING ECONOMIC DENIERS. I MEAN,

IT'S SCIENCE FICTION WHEN YOU SAY WE WANT TO VOTE ON A POLICY FOR A

TECHNOLOGY THAT DOESN'T EXIST YET. IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN IT, ALL RIGHT.

START WITH A PILOT PROGRAM. SAY IN NEW YORK CITY WE'RE NOT GOING TO

SELL GASOLINE ANYMORE. SAY IN NEW YORK CITY, WE'RE GOING TO

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ELIMINATE GAS STATIONS, WE'RE GOING TO START REQUIRING -- OR SAY THAT WE

ARE GOING TO START REQUIRING NEW YORK CITY'S FLEET TO BE 100 PERCENT

ELECTRIC BEFORE EVERYBODY ELSE'S, BUT DON'T BRING IT TO THE POOR FAMILIES

OF UPSTATE NEW YORK AND REQUIRE THIS FOR THEM. I VOTE NO, MR.

SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. WALCZYK IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ANY EXCEPTIONS?

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. PLEASE RECORD THE

FOLLOWING ASSEMBLY MEMBERS IN THE AFFIRMATIVE: MR. BROWN, MR.

DURSO, AND MR. GANDOLFO. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ARE THERE ANY OTHER

VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 20, CALENDAR NO. 204, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05082, CALENDAR NO.

204, ENGLEBRIGHT, SIMON, EPSTEIN, COOK, STECK, AUBRY, NIOU,

SEAWRIGHT, FAHY, THIELE, ABINANTI, GOTTFRIED, GALEF, DE LA ROSA,

BARRON, L. ROSENTHAL, WEPRIN, GRIFFIN, WOERNER, REYES, PAULIN,

GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, PHEFFER AMATO, KELLES, GALLAGHER, CRUZ. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW AND THE STATE FINANCE

LAW, IN RELATION TO RESTRICTING HOTELS FROM MAKING AVAILABLE TO HOTEL

GUESTS SMALL PLASTIC BOTTLE HOSPITALITY PERSONAL CARE PRODUCTS.

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ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

THIS BILL WOULD PROHIBIT HOTELS FROM DISTRIBUTING CERTAIN SMALL PLASTIC

BOTTLES THAT ARE USED FOR PERSONAL CARE PRODUCTS SUCH AS SOAPS, LOTIONS,

AND SHAMPOO. THE GOAL IS TO HELP REDUCE THE PROLIFERATION OF

SINGLE-USE PLASTIC PRODUCTS AND TO KEEP THEM FROM POLLUTING OUR

ENVIRONMENT AND -- AND MAKING A -- A CLEANUP PROBLEM ALONG OUR

SHORES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SMULLEN.

MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS, PLEASE?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: GO RIGHT AHEAD.

MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHAIR

ENGLEBRIGHT, I APPRECIATE YOUR -- YOUR FORTITUDE BEING HERE TODAY

DEBATING THESE BILLS. I THINK WE HAVE KIND OF A CURIOUS DICHOTOMY

HERE. WE WENT FROM ZERO EMISSION VEHICLES IN NEW YORK STATE GOING

FORWARD TO SHAMPOO BOTTLES IN HOTELS. I KNOW IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO

THINK GLOBALLY AND ACT LOCALLY, BUT I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU, WHY DO WE

NEED TO LEGISLATE ON THIS TOPIC?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: BECAUSE THE - YOU ASK A VERY

GOOD QUESTION - BECAUSE THE BOTTLES THAT ARE BEING GIVEN AWAY OR COME

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ALONG WITH YOUR OVERNIGHT -- OVERNIGHT ROOM RENTAL COSTS ARE POLLUTING

THE ENVIRONMENT. THEY'RE JUST AN AWFUL LOT OF THEM THAT FIND THEIR WAY

INTO THE ENVIRONMENT.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE THAT.

I JUST -- YOU KNOW, I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING ITS APPLICATION IN

NEW YORK STATE. OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, ON THE SURFACE OF IT, IT SEEMS

VERY EASY. NO HOTEL, MOTEL CAN HAVE THESE THINGS. THAT SEEMS TO BE A

LITTLE BIT EASIER FOR A CHAIN OPERATION WHERE THEY HAVE A VERY

SOPHISTICATED SYSTEM OF CORPORATE GOVERNANCE, LIKE MARRIOTT. AND I

THINK, IN FACT, RIGHT NOW AT THIS POINT, THE MARRIOTT INTERNATIONAL, YOUR

MEMO SAYS, THAT THEY'RE ALREADY REPLACING SINGLE-USE PLASTIC BOTTLES

WITH A DISPENSER INSTEAD. SO I'M ALWAYS ONE TO TAKE A MARKET-BASED

SOLUTION. IF THE MARKET IS ALREADY DOING THIS, SHOULDN'T WE JUST ALLOW IT

TO PLAY ITSELF OUT INSTEAD OF MICROMANAGING SUCH AN INDUSTRY?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, I'M NOT SURE WE'RE

MICROMANAGING THE INDUSTRY. THE -- THE PROLIFERATION, THOUGH, OF

PERSONAL CARE PRODUCT BOTTLES IN SMALL SIZES, I DON'T THINK IT CONTROLS THE

INDUSTRY, BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS CAUSING EXPENSES TO THE PUBLIC

AT-LARGE. AND SO OUR INTEREST HERE IS TO MINIMIZE THE COST TO TAXPAYERS

AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE TO DO THE CLEANUP.

MR. SMULLEN: OKAY, I APPRECIATE THAT. SO NOW,

WE'VE BEEN IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC FOR THE LAST YEAR WHERE

SANITATION AND HYGIENE HAS BECOME EXTREMELY MORE IMPORTANT IN

PREVENTING THE SPREAD. AND ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE CONCERNS AND THE

FEARS AND WHAT'S REALLY SHUT DOWN A LOT OF THE TRAVEL INDUSTRY, AIRLINES

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AND HOTELS, IS THE SHARED NATURE OF PUBLIC TRANSPORT ON AIRPLANES, BUT

THEN ALSO HOTELS WHERE YOU'RE AT A CONFERENCE OR A RESORT WHERE PEOPLE

ARE USING ESSENTIALLY THE SAME ROOMS OVER AND OVER AGAIN. ARE THERE

ANY STUDIES OR IS THERE ANY INFORMATION REGARDING DISPENSERS VERSUS

SINGLE-USE CONTAINERS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY BREED ANY SORT OF PUBLIC

HYGIENE ISSUE, WHETHER IT'S BACTERIA OR VIRUSES?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH SUCH A

STUDY. I WOULD POINT OUT, THOUGH, THAT JUST TO ENTER INTO YOUR HOTEL

ROOM YOU HAVE TO TOUCH A DOOR HANDLE, AND IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT

THE CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL HAS INDICATED THAT THIS TYPE OF TOUCHING

IS -- IS NOT REALLY WHAT IS TRANSMITTING COVID. COVID-19 IS PRIMARILY

AIRBORNE.

MR. SMULLEN: MOST CERTAINLY, I JUST MENTIONED

ANY SORT OF A DISEASE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT'S WHY -- THAT'S WHY

YOU'RE WEARING THE MASK TODAY, AND I'M -- I'M GLAD TO SEE THAT YOU ARE,

AND I THINK THAT'S VERY RESPONSIBLE. BUT IT'S ALSO A RESPONSE TO THE FACT

THAT THIS DISEASE IS SPREAD PRIMARILY BY DROPLETS IN THE AIR.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU. I WEAR MY MASK

BECAUSE IT'S THE RULES OF THE HOUSE IN WHICH I'M A MEMBER, AND I SAY

THAT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO WEAR MY MASK, NOR DO I THINK

IT'S NECESSARY, BUT BECAUSE I RESPECT THE HOUSE AND BECAUSE I RESPECT

THE RULE OF LAW, I DO SO, NOT FOR ANY PROVISION OF SOME SCIENTIFIC

CREDIBILITY OF ANY -- ANY WAY OR OTHER. SO I DO APPRECIATE YOU

MENTIONING THAT. I CHOOSE TO DEBATE TODAY IN PERSON, AND THANK YOU

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VERY MUCH.

SO I WANT TO JUST MAKE SURE THAT I COVER ALL THE -- THE

ISSUES THAT AFFECT MANY OF THE HOTELS AND MOTELS IN MY AREA, A LOT OF

THEM ARE MOM AND POP OPERATIONS. BUT A BIG SECTOR OF OUR TOURIST

ECONOMY IN UPSTATE NEW YORK IS ACTUALLY THE SHARED ECONOMY WHICH

IS AIRBNB'S. DOES THIS AFFECT AIRBNB RENTALS IN NEW YORK ONCE IT'S

PASSED?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: HMM, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK IF THEY MEET THE DEFINITION OF HOTELS THAT THEY WOULD BE COVERED.

THE -- THE LAW IS EFFECTIVE IN JANUARY 1ST OF 2024 REGARDING HOTELS WITH

50 OR MORE ROOMS, SO IN THE FIRST YEAR CERTAINLY, AIRBNB WOULD NOT BE

IMPACTED. AFTER -- ONE YEAR AFTER THAT, THOUGH, ON JANUARY 1ST OF 2025,

ALL HOTELS WITH 50 OR LESS ROOMS, AND I PRESUME ALSO AIRBNB OPERATIONS

THAT ARE REGULARLY USED FOR LODGING WOULD ALSO BE COVERED, FOR

COMMERCIAL --

MR. SMULLEN: CERTAINLY, AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN

DISCUSS THAT GOING FORWARD BEFORE THIS COMES INTO EFFECT BECAUSE THE

NEXT THING I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT IS HOW WE'RE GOING TO ENFORCE THIS.

YOU KNOW, THIS SEEMS A TRIVIAL MATTER, BUT ONCE IT BECOMES A MATTER OF

LAW, IT BECOMES A MATTER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. NOW, IS IT GOING TO BE

THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION THAT'S TASKED WITH

ENFORCING THE PROVISIONS OF THIS BILL?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YES, IT WILL BE THE DEC. LET

ME JUST MAKE THE OBSERVATION THAT I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE PRIMARY

CONTROL ON THIS IS GOING TO BE AN EDUCATED ELECTORATE, AN EDUCATED

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CITIZENRY, AND THEY WILL -- THEY WILL -- YOU MENTIONED THE WORD

"RESPECT" A MOMENT AGO, IT'S AN IMPORTANT WORD HERE, AS WELL. I THINK

THAT PEOPLE WILL FEEL DISRESPECTED IF THEY ARE IN A HOTEL AND THE HOTEL

DOES NOT, IN TURN, RESPECT THE LAW THAT IS INTENDED TO PROTECT THE

ENVIRONMENT.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU FOR THAT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: SO JUST LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU

DON'T HAVE A COP BEHIND EVERY STOP SIGN, PEOPLE RESPECT WHAT THAT STOP

SIGN IS FOR AND THEY STOP, EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, THEY'LL STOP AT

A STOP SIGN WITH THE NEAREST POLICEMAN BEING MILES AWAY SIMPLY

BECAUSE THEY RESPECT WHAT IT'S INTENDED TO DO, TO PROTECT THE -- THE

INDIVIDUAL, TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM HARM.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU FOR THAT. I DON'T

KNOW THAT THIS IS GOING TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM HARM, BUT I'M ALWAYS

CONCERNED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT BUDGETS, PARTICULARLY AMONGST SMALL

COUNTIES AND THEIR SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENTS, ALSO SMALL COUNTIES AND THEIR

DEPARTMENTS OF HEALTH WHICH ACTUALLY INSPECT SOME OF THESE FACILITIES

AND THESE THINGS. SO I'M -- I'M ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH THE BOTTOM LINE

AS TO WHAT -- WHAT I FEEL IS AN UNNECESSARY REGULATION HAS AND PUTS

SOME SORT OF UNDUE BURDEN ON BASICALLY LAW ENFORCE -- LAW-ABIDING

CITIZENS WHO ARE TRYING TO RUN HONEST SMALL BUSINESSES, IT MAKES IT, YOU

KNOW, THE REGULATORY HAND BE A LITTLE BIT ONEROUS FOR THEM. JUST A

COUPLE MORE THINGS --

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IF I COULD JUST ADDRESS THAT --

MAY I ADDRESS THAT?

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MR. SMULLEN: CERTAINLY.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU. A LOT OF THESE

SMALL BOTTLES END UP GOING INTO SEWERS WHICH, IN TURN, CLOG UP THE --

THE SANITARY FUNCTION OF THE SEWER, AND THAT IS EXPENSIVE. AND THE

MAINTENANCE OF -- OF THE LINES AND THE PIPES THAT RUN INTO SEWER

DISTRICTS THAT ARE CLOGGED WITH PLASTIC, BOTH FILM PLASTIC AND SMALL

BOTTLES IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC. THESE SMALL BOTTLES ARE ABLE TO SLIP INTO

THE STEEL GRATES BECAUSE OF THEIR SIZE, AND THAT'S A PROBLEM AND IT'S AN

EXPENSIVE PROBLEM.

MR. SMULLEN: SURE. SO ARE THESE SMALL BOTTLES

THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING, ARE THEY ACTUALLY RECYCLABLE?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THEORETICALLY, ALL PLASTIC --

ALMOST -- I SHOULDN'T ALL, BUT MOST PLASTIC IS RECYCLABLE. THE PROBLEM,

OF COURSE, IS GATHERING IT INTO ONLY ONE PLASTIC SPECIES. THAT IS A

DIFFICULTY. AND SO WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THIS IS POLYETHYLENE,

POLYPROPYLENE, POLYVINYL CHLORIDE; YOU CAN'T MIX THOSE AND COMMINGLE

THOSE AND EXPECT THEM TO BE RECYCLABLE. SO IF ONE REALLY WANTS TO

RECYCLE PLASTIC, IT HAS TO BEGIN WITH THE MANUFACTURER, BUT THAT'S

ANOTHER BILL. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT ONE LATER.

MR. SMULLEN: I WAS JUST GOING TO MENTION, I THINK

WE NEED TO TALK SOME MORE ABOUT SINGLE STREAM RECYCLING AND WHAT THE

BENEFITS AND THE COSTS ARE SO WE CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A GOOD POLICY

DISCUSSION AHEAD OF TIME ABOUT ENCOURAGING MORE RECYCLING ACROSS ALL

ASPECTS OF THE ECONOMY IN NEW YORK.

SO LAST THING, I JUST WANTED TO SAY -- OR ASK YOU, WHERE

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DID THE $250 FINE COME UP WITH? THAT -- THAT'S LESS THAN SOME OF THE

MARIHUANA TRAFFICKING FINES THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE HERE. WHERE DID

THAT NUMBER COME FROM?

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT WAS ADVISED TO ME BY

COUNSEL AND BASED, I BELIEVE, ON OTHER LAW AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT I

HAVEN'T REALLY THOUGHT IN GREAT DETAIL ABOUT. IF IT TURNS OUT THAT -- THAT

IT'S INAPPROPRIATE, I'D BE WILLING TO REVISIT THE -- THE LEGISLATION, BUT FOR

THE MOMENT, THAT IS THE NUMBER THAT WE'RE WORKING WITH FOR A FIRST

OFFENSE.

MR. SMULLEN: FOR A FIRST OFFENSE.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: FOLLOWING A WARNING. THE

WARNING COMES FIRST.

MR. SMULLEN: RIGHT.

MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: AND THIS WOULD BE THE FIRST

OFFENSE AFTER THE WARNING WOULD HAVE BEEN IGNORED.

MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

ENGLEBRIGHT.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.

SMULLEN.

MR. SMULLEN: SO I JUST WOULD NOTE, WE WENT FROM

A -- WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE OF ZERO EMISSION ELECTRIC

VEHICLES TO A BILL ON PLASTIC BOTTLES IN HOTELS AND MOTELS, WHICH IS

ALREADY BEING CORRECTED BY THE INDUSTRY BECAUSE THEY -- THEY -- THEY

HAVE FIGURED IT OUT FROM A CORPORATE PERSPECTIVE. AND THIS IS JUST

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

GOING TO FALL ON MOSTLY IS THE HAND OF THE STATE COMING DOWN ON SMALL

BUSINESSES, PRIMARILY FAMILY-OWNED MOTELS, IT MAY BE NOT THEIR CHIEF

SOURCE OF INCOME, BUT THEIR SUPPLEMENTAL SOURCE OF INCOME, MANY OF

WHICH SUPPORT THE RECREATION INDUSTRY IN THE AREAS THAT I REPRESENT, OF

JUST THE STATE COMING IN WITH WHAT I CALL A 1,000 MILE SCREWDRIVER.

FROM WAY UP HERE, THEY'RE GOING TO COME IN TO A LITTLE MOM AND POP

MOTEL AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU NEED TO TAKE THOSE PLASTIC BOTTLES

OUT OF THERE FOR A SUPPOSED PUBLIC BENEFIT, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE OF

GREAT VALUE IN THE LONG TERM AS FAR AS RECYCLING. IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY,

YOU ACTUALLY RECYCLE THOSE PRODUCTS, OR SOME OF THEM ARE EVEN REUSABLE

SORT OF THING.

SO I JUST THINK THAT THIS IS A -- THIS BILL MAKES PEOPLE

FEEL GOOD ABOUT PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT, BUT IT DOES VERY LITTLE IN

THE AGGREGATE OTHER THAN TAKING AND ALIENATING THE CITIZENS UPON WHOM

THIS STATE RELIES FOR ITS GOODWILL. AND THAT'S WHY I MENTIONED THAT IT'S

REALLY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE REALIZE THAT LAYER UPON LAYER OF REGULATION,

YEAR AFTER YEAR, TIME AFTER TIME SIMPLY MAKES PEOPLE NUMB TO THE

ABILITY OF THE STATE TO GOVERN WITH GOOD SENSE AND GOOD JUDGMENT.

FOR THAT REASON, I'D URGE ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES ON BOTH

SIDES OF THE AISLE IN A NONPARTISAN WAY TO SAY LET'S -- LET'S LEGISLATE

ABOUT IMPORTANT THINGS, BUT LET'S LEAVE THESE SMALLER THINGS TO THE

REGULATORY SCHEMES OF OUR DEPARTMENTS AND ALLOW THEM FOR THE PEOPLE

TO BE ABLE TO SAY, WE KNOW WHAT IS ENOUGH REGULATION FOR NEW YORK

STATE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1,

2024.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 5082. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY MEMBER

WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THE CONFERENCE POSITION

IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS

PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE WILL GENERALLY BE OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION FOR THE

REASONS STATED BY MR. SMULLEN, AND BECAUSE WE ALL APPRECIATE LOOKING

OUR BEST IN THE MORNING WHEN WE STAY AT A HOTEL OR MOTEL. BUT FOR

THOSE WHO DON'T CARE OR WANT TO SUPPORT THIS, PLEASE CALL THE MINORITY

LEADER'S OFFICE AND WE'LL MAKE SURE YOUR VIEWS ARE PROPERLY RECORDED.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. HYNDMAN.

MS. HYNDMAN: I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND MY

COLLEAGUES THAT THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. MAJORITY MEMBERS WILL BE

RECORDED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. IF THERE ARE ANY EXCEPTIONS, I ASK MAJORITY

MEMBERS TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY LEADER'S OFFICE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. ABINANTI TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. ABINANTI: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. TODAY IS

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

EARTH DAY 51. EARTH DAY IS PROBABLY NOT THE FIRST THING ON THE MINDS

OF MOST PEOPLE. MOST PEOPLE ARE CONCENTRATING ON COVID-19 AND

HOW THEIR LIVES WILL BE DIFFERENT WHEN WE EMERGE FROM THE PANDEMIC.

BUT ONE THING THAT WILL NOT BE DIFFERENT, CLIMATE CHANGE WILL STILL BE

HAPPENING. AND MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, CLIMATE CHANGE IS THE

DEFINING ISSUE OF THE 21ST CENTURY. THE BEARS AND BULLS WILL COME AND

GO TIME AND TIME AGAIN ON WALL STREET, BUT WHEN THE POLAR BEARS GO,

THAT'S CANARY IN THE COAL MINE, THAT THE HUMAN ANIMAL IS NOT FAR BEHIND.

BUT THIS GLOBAL PANDEMIC DRAMATICALLY REMINDS US OF

HOW SMALL IS OUR WORLD, HOW WHAT HAPPENS IN ONE PLACE CAN AND WILL

AFFECT EVERYWHERE ELSE ON EARTH. SO EACH OF US MUST DO AS MUCH AS WE

CAN TO PROTECT OUR AIR AND WATER, AND FOSTER SUSTAINABLE LAND USE

POLICIES. TODAY WE PASSED SEVERAL MEASURES TO FACILITATE THE USE OF

CLEANER ENERGY CARS, KEEP POLLUTANTS OUT OF OUR WATERWAYS, AND REDUCE

THE PLASTIC TRASH GOING TO OUR LANDFILLS AND INCINERATORS. SO WE'VE

TAKEN THE STEPS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO TAKING

MANY MORE. LET US REMEMBER, WE DID NOT INHERIT THIS EARTH FROM OUR

ANCESTORS, WE BORROWED IT FROM OUR GRANDCHILDREN. WE ARE TRUSTEES

WITH NO RIGHT TO SQUANDER WHAT WE ARE CHARGED WITH PROTECTING.

TOGETHER TODAY, WE ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE. I VOTE YES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: EXCEPTIONS, MR.

GOODELL?

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. I'M -- I'M WAITING

FOR THE DEC TO DO A BATHROOM RAID AND SAY, HAND OVER THAT

CONDITIONER, AND SUPPORTING THAT INITIATIVE ARE THE FOLLOWING

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES: MR. BROWN, MR. DURSO, MR. GANDOLFO, MRS.

MILLER, MR. RA, AND MR. SIMPSON. AND MR. LAWLER, MICHAEL LAWLER.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, DO YOU

HAVE ANY HOUSEKEEPING? FOR SURE YOU HAVE A PRIVILEGED RESOLUTION BY

MS. MCMAHON, BUT IS THERE ANY OTHER HOUSEKEEPING?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WE DO HAVE SOME

HOUSEKEEPING.

AT THE REQUEST OF MR. GOTTFRIED, THE FOLLOWING BILLS ARE

RECOMMITTED BACK TO THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH: CALENDAR NO. 32, BILL

NO. 170, AND CALENDAR NO. 87, BILL NO. 169.

WE HAVE A RESOLUTION, 167, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 167, MS.

MCMAHON.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION COMMEMORATING THE 51ST

ANNIVERSARY OF EARTH DAY ON APRIL 22, 2021.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. MCMAHON ON THE

RESOLUTION.

MS. MCMAHON: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

ALLOWING ME TO SPEAK EVER SO BRIEFLY ON THIS RESOLUTION. IT HAS BEEN 51

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

YEARS SINCE WE, AS A NATION, FIRST COMMEMORATED EARTH DAY ON APRIL

22, 1970. WHAT BEGAN AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE AMERICANS ON THE

IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING OUR LAND, AIR, AND WATER, EARTH DAY HAS NOW

BECOME A WORLDWIDE CELEBRATION OF THE BEAUTY OF THE NATURAL

ENVIRONMENT AND A CHALLENGE TO RECOMMIT TO THOSE ACTIONS NECESSARY TO

PROTECT THE PLANET AND ITS RESOURCES.

SADLY IN THE 51 YEARS SINCE THE FIRST EARTH DAY, OUR

PLANET HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE CONTINUING BURDENS OF POLLUTION,

POPULATION, OVER DEVELOPMENT, OZONE DEPLETION, DEFORESTATION AND

SPECIES EXTINCTION. WHILE WE HAVE COME TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE

PROBLEMS THREATENING THE PLANET AND, BY EXTENSION, OUR SURVIVAL ON IT,

WE AS A GLOBAL COMMUNITY HAVE FAILED TO TAKE MEANINGFUL STEPS TO SHIFT

OUR BEHAVIOR AND CHANGE COURSE. AS A LEGISLATIVE BODY, WE HAVE A

PARTICULAR RESPONSIBILITY TO RECOGNIZE THE URGENCY OF OUR CLIMATE CRISIS

AND TO CRAFT POLICY SOLUTIONS TO ADDRESS IT.

SO WHILE WE RECOGNIZE EARTH DAY ON APRIL 22ND, LET'S

NOT FORGET TO HONOR OUR MOTHER EARTH ON THE REMAINING DAYS OF THE YEAR

AND COMMIT OURSELVES TO A CLEANER, HEALTHIER, AND SAFER PLANET. HAPPY

EARTH DAY, EVERYONE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU. ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

WE HAVE NUMEROUS OTHER FINE RESOLUTIONS WE WILL TAKE

UP WITH ONE VOTE. ON THESE RESOLUTIONS, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY

SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTIONS ARE ADOPTED.

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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 20, 2021

(WHEREUPON, ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NOS. 162 AND

174-179 WERE UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED.)

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, I NOW

MOVE THE ASSEMBLY STAND ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 10 A.M.,

WEDNESDAY IS THE 21ST OF APRIL. WE WILL BE STARTING AT 10 A.M., AND IT

IS A SESSION DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE ASSEMBLY STANDS

ADJOURNED.

(WHEREUPON, AT 4:48 P.M., THE ASSEMBLY STOOD

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21ST AT 10:00 A.M., WEDNESDAY

BEING A SESSION DAY.)

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