TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2022 11:21 A.M.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE HOUSE WILL COME
TO ORDER.
IMAM TAHIR WILL OFFER A PRAYER.
IMAM TAHIR KUKAJ: MERCIFUL LOVING GOD, WE
THANK YOU FOR THIS HISTORIC DAY. YOU'RE THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.
MERCIFUL GRACIOUS GOD ALMIGHTY, WE ASK YOU FOR YOUR HELP AND
GUIDANCE TO GUIDE US IN THE RIGHT PATH, A PATH OF SUCCESS AND UNITY.
GOD ALMIGHTY, BLESS OUR ASSEMBLY, MEMBERS OF THIS GREAT ASSEMBLY.
GOD ALMIGHTY, ON THIS VERY DAY THAT MUSLIMS FAST THE HOLY MONTH OF
RAMADAN, OUR JEWISH BROTHERS CELEBRATE PASSOVER. OUR CHRISTIAN
BROTHERS CELEBRATE EASTER. YOU HAVE GATHERED THEM, THESE THREE BIG
HOLIDAYS, FOR ABRAM AND FAITH. UNITE OUR HEARTS TO SERVE OUR GREAT
STATE OF NEW YORK. ENLIGHTEN OUR MINDS TO SEE YOUR SIGNS AND YOUR
BLESSINGS. SOFTEN OUR HEARTS SO WE BE APPRECIATIVE FOR SO MANY
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BLESSINGS THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US. GOD ALMIGHTY, MAKE OUR DAYS
USEFUL, OUR NIGHTS RESTFUL, OUR HOMES PEACEFUL AND OUR WORK FRUITFUL.
GOD ALMIGHTY, WE ASK YOU THAT YOU GIVE OUR ASSEMBLYMEMBERS THE
FEELING OF PROPHET ABRAHAM, FATHER OF ALL PROPHETS. GIVE THEM FEELING
OF STATEHOOD LIKE PROPHET MOSES WHO LED HIS PEOPLE TO FREEDOM. GIVE
OUR MEMBERS OF ASSEMBLY THE FEELING OF NOBILITY, OF JESUS, PEACE BE
UPON HIM, AND MERCY THAT WAS EXEMPLIFIED IN PROPHET MUHAMMAD'S
LIFE. GOD ALMIGHTY, BLESS OUR STATE OF NEW YORK. WE THANK YOU FOR
SO MANY BLESSINGS. WE HAVE SO MANY PRAYERS THAT WE HAVE MUCH
MORE THANKFULNESS AND GRATITUDE FOR YOU HAVE ALREADY BLESSED US. WE
THANK YOU THAT YOU ENDED COVID. WE PRAY FOR THOSE WHO WERE TAKEN
FROM US. MAY GOD HONOR THEIR SOUL. WE PRAY FOR THOSE SICK. MAY
GOD HEAL THEM. AND WE ALWAYS PRAY FOR PEACE AND PROSPERITY FOR OUR
STATE OF NEW YORK, AND ALWAYS GOD BLESS UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
IN YOUR NAME, WE MAKE THIS PRAYER. AMEN.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: VISITORS ARE INVITED
TO JOIN MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.
(WHEREUPON, ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY LED VISITORS AND
MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.)
A QUORUM BEING PRESENT, THE CLERK WILL READ THE
JOURNAL OF MONDAY, APRIL 4TH.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, I MOVE TO
DISPENSE WITH THE FURTHER READING OF THE JOURNAL OF MONDAY, APRIL THE
4TH AND ASK THAT THE SAME STAND APPROVED.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO
ORDERED.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, SIR. I WANT
TO APPRECIATE THE COLLEAGUES THAT ARE IN THE CHAMBER AS WELL AS THE
BEAUTIFUL WORDS THAT WAS GIVEN TO US IN PRAYER THIS MORNING. MR.
SPEAKER, I DO HAVE A QUOTE I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE. THIS ONE IS FROM
JOHN WOODIN. SOME OF YOU ALL MAY KNOW JOHN, HE WAS THE MEN'S
HEAD BASKETBALL COACH FOR THE UCLA BRUINS FROM -- FOR 27 SEASONS,
FROM 1948 TO 1975. HIS TEAM WON TEN NCAA CHAMPIONSHIPS IN 12
SEASONS. HIS WORDS FOR US TODAY, TALENT IS GOD-GIVEN. BE HUMBLE.
FAME IS MAN-GIVEN. BE GRATEFUL. CONCEIT IS SELF-GIVEN. BE CAREFUL.
AGAIN, MR. SPEAKER, THOSE WORDS ARE FROM JOHN WOODIN.
COLLEAGUES, BE MINDFUL THAT YOU DO HAVE ON YOUR DESK
A MAIN CALENDAR, AND MEMBERS ALSO HAVE A DEBATE LIST. AFTER
HOUSEKEEPING WE'RE GOING TO TAKE UP RESOLUTIONS ON PAGE 3 WHERE
SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUES MAY LIKE TO SPEAK. AND THEN AFTER THAT WE'LL
BEGIN TO WORK DIRECTLY OFF OF OUR DEBATE LIST. MR. SPEAKER, WE'RE GOING
TO START WITH CALENDAR NO. 178 BY MR. ENGLEBRIGHT. FOLLOWED BY
CALENDAR NO. 190 BY MR. GOTTFRIED, CALENDAR NO. 191 BY MR.
GOTTFRIED, CALENDAR NO. 203 BY MRS. GUNTHER, CALENDAR NO. 215 BY
MS. SOLAGES AND CALENDAR NO. 293 BY MRS. GUNTHER.
THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING TO GO FOR RIGHT NOW, MR.
SPEAKER, SHOULD THERE BE ANY NEEDS TO CHANGE ANYTHING WE WILL MAKE
SURE THAT WE MAKE YOU AND MEMBERS AWARE OF THAT. THERE ABSOLUTELY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
WILL BE A NEED FOR A MAJORITY CONFERENCE IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE
CLOSE OF OUR WORK ON THE FLOOR TODAY, MR. SPEAKER. AND WE WILL, AS
ALWAYS, CHECK WITH OUR COLLEAGUES TO DETERMINE WHAT THEIR NEEDS MAY
BE.
THAT'S THE GENERAL OUTLINE OF WHERE WE'RE GOING TODAY,
MR. SPEAKER. IF THERE'S HOUSEKEEPING NOW WOULD BE A GREAT TIME.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WE DO HAVE AN
INTRODUCTION BY MR. FALL.
MR. FALL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I WANT TO JUST
TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO THANK IMAM TAHIR FOR TRAVELING FROM THE
BOROUGH OF STATEN ISLAND TO COME TO ALBANY TO LEAD US IN A WONDERFUL
PRAYER ON THE FOURTH DAY OF THE HOLY DAY OF -- THE HOLY MONTH OF
RAMADAN. IMAM TAHIR IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF A STRONG PILLAR WE
HAVE IN OUR COMMUNITY IN THE BOROUGH OF STATEN ISLAND. DURING THE
COVID PANDEMIC HE -- HE MADE SURE THAT HIS CENTER WAS OPEN SO WE
COULD MAKE SURE WE GET THE VACCINES TO THOUSANDS OF STATEN ISLANDERS.
HE ENSURED THAT THE CENTER PROVIDES ACCESS TO GIVE TESTS DURING THE
COVID -- THE COVID PANDEMIC. AND PRIOR TO THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN I
WORKED AT CITY HALL FOR THE MAYOR'S OFFICE HE WAS A STRONG ADVOCATE TO
ENSURE THAT THE CITY OF NEW YORK HAS MUSLIM HOLIDAYS AND ALSO
PROVIDES HALAL FOOD AS AN OPTION. AND THE IMPORTANCE OF MUSLIN
HOLIDAYS IS WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR KIDS DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE
BETWEEN GOING TO SCHOOL AND CHOOSING BETWEEN GOING TO SCHOOL OR
CELEBRATING A HOLIDAY WITH THEIR FAMILIES, YOU KNOW. SO IMAM TAHIR
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
HAS DONE A LOT OF GREAT WORK, AND I DO WANT TO ALSO HIGHLIGHT THAT HE IS
THE HEAD IMAM OF THE MIRAJ ISLAMIC SCHOOL AND THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF
THE ISLAM -- ALBANIAN CULTURAL CENTER AND ALSO A CHAPLIN WITH THE
NYPD. THANK YOU, IMAM, FOR JOINING US. AND MR. SPEAKER, IF YOU
COULD WELCOME HIM TO THE PEOPLE'S HOUSE AND EXTEND THE CORDIALITIES
OF THE FLOOR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY. ON BEHALF
OF MR. FALL, MR. CUSICK, THE ENTIRE STATEN ISLAND DELEGATION, WE
WELCOME YOU HERE, IMAM. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR LEADING US IN
PRAYER.
IMAM TAHIR: THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: YOU HAVE THE
PRIVILEGES OF THE FLOOR AND WE'RE ALWAYS HAPPY TO SEE YOU --
IMAM TAHIR: THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: -- AND MAY YOU GO
WITH GOOD HEALTH AND WEALTH.
IMAM TAHIR: THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU SO MUCH.
(APPLAUSE)
WE DO HAVE HOUSEKEEPING, MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
AT THE REQUEST OF MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES THE FOLLOWING
BILLS ARE RECOMMITTED AS FOLLOWS: PAGE 6, NO. 189 TO THE COMMITTEE
ON INSURANCE. CALENDAR NO. 14, NO. 254 TO THE COMMITTEE ON CODES.
CALENDAR NO. 81, NO. 1615 TO THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH. TO CALENDAR
NO. 87, NO. 1917 TO THE COMMITTEE ON CODES. CALENDAR NO. 384, NO.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
1635 TO THE COMMITTEE ON CODES. AND CALENDAR NO. 416, NO. 177 TO
THE CONSUMER AFFAIRS PROTECTION COMMITTEE.
ON A MOTION BY MRS. GALEF THE AMENDMENTS ARE
RECEIVED AND ADOPTED. THAT'S PAGE 16, CALENDAR NO. 150 -- 50, BILL
NO. A.4499 BY MRS. GALEF.
AND NOW WE WILL MOVE TO RESOLUTIONS, PAGE 3,
ASSEMBLY NO. 725, THE CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 725, MR.
SANTABARBARA.
LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR
KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM APRIL 2022 AS AUTISM ACCEPTANCE MONTH IN
THE STATE OF NEW YORK.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SANTABARBARA ON
THE RESOLUTION.
MR. SANTABARBARA: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
I RISE TO SPEAK ON THIS RESOLUTION TODAY AS IT HAS SIGNIFICANT IMPORTANCE
TO MANY INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES HERE IN NEW YORK STATE, AND ALSO A
PERSONAL CONNECTION FOR ME AND MY FAMILY. WHEN MY SON WAS JUST
THREE YEARS OLD MY WIFE AND I REALIZED THAT MICHAEL WASN'T LEARNING
LIKE OTHER KIDS. LATER THAT YEAR HE WAS DIAGNOSED WITH AUTISM. THE
LATEST STUDY SHOWED THE PREVALENCE OF AUTISM AMONG CHILDREN ACROSS
THE NATION IS NOW 1 IN 44, A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE FROM A 2016 STUDY
WHICH FOUND 1 IN 54 CHILDREN WERE DIAGNOSED WITH AUTISM. WITH MORE
THAN FIVE MILLION PEOPLE AFFECTED IN THE UNITED STATES, AUTISM IS THE
FASTEST GROWING DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITY IN OUR COUNTRY. AND DESPITE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
THE PREVALENCE OF AUTISM THERE HAS STILL BEEN MUCH STIGMA ASSOCIATED
WITH IT. AND MANY WHO ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE CHALLENGES SIMPLY
DIDN'T KNOW THE BEST WAY TO APPROACH THE TOPIC. IN THE EARLY '70S THE
AUTISM SOCIETY OF AMERICA BEGAN A NATIONWIDE AUTISM AWARENESS
MONTH CAMPAIGN. IT WAS LATER ADOPTED BY CONGRESS IN 1984 AND
STRENGTHENED BY THE NOW-FAMILIAR AUTISM AWARENESS RIBBON IN 1999.
THE GOAL OF AUTISM AWARENESS MONTH WAS TO PROMOTE AWARENESS AND
TO HELP ASSURE THAT THOSE AFFECTED BY AUTISM COULD ACHIEVE THE HIGHEST
QUALITY OF LIFE POSSIBLE, WHICH HAS NOW EVOLVED INTO AUTISM
ACCEPTANCE MONTH, THE RESOLUTION THAT WE ARE TAKING UP TODAY. NOT
ONLY TO CONTINUE THOSE EFFORTS TO SPREAD AWARENESS BUT ALSO TO PROMOTE
ACCEPTANCE AND CHANGE. AUTISM POSES UNIQUE CHALLENGES TO THOSE
AFFECTED, AND THAT'S WHY DAYS LIKE TODAY ARE SO IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT
OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS SO FAR AND ALSO THE WORK THAT WE HAVE LEFT TO DO.
AS WE CONTINUE TO RECOVER FROM THE PANDEMIC AND WE CONTINUE TO FACE
CHALLENGING TIMES, IT'S SO IMPORTANT NOW MORE THAN EVER TO ENSURE THAT
KIDS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES ARE NEVER LEFT
BEHIND.
AS PARENTS, MY WIFE AND I REALIZED THAT THE VERY FIRST
STEP IN RAISING A CHILD WITH AUTISM IS TO REALIZE THAT THEY'RE PERFECT AS
THEY ARE. AND HERE IN OUR STATE CAPITOL, IN THIS CHAMBER, IT'S OUR
COLLECTIVE VOICE THAT ENSURES NEW YORKERS AFFECTED BY AUTISM HAVE A
SEAT AT THE TABLE AND THE TOOLS TO HELP THEM BE A PART OF THE AMERICAN
DREAM. THIS RESOLUTION CONTINUES THOSE EFFORTS TO BUILD BETTER
AWARENESS OF THE SIGNS, SYMPTOMS AND REALITIES OF AUTISM, TO PROVIDE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
INFORMATION AND RESOURCES FOR OUR COMMUNITIES AND TO PROMOTE
ACCEPTANCE AND BE MORE INCLUSIVE IN EVERYDAY LIFE. AND I'M PROUD TO
BRING IT TO THE -- BRING IT FORWARD HERE TODAY AND I ENCOURAGE MY
COLLEAGUES TO SUPPORT IT.
THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
MS. WALSH ON THE RESOLUTION.
MS. WALSH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER. I
WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR BRINGING THIS RESOLUTION FORWARD AND FOR
THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK ON IT BRIEFLY. I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT --
THAT ASSEMBLYMAN SANTABARBARA JUST SAID. I ESPECIALLY WAS TOUCHED BY
THE PART WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT HOW OUR KIDS WITH AUTISM ARE PERFECT AS
THEY ARE. AND I THINK -- YOU KNOW, MY SON WILL BE 30 THIS YEAR, WHICH
IS ALMOST INCONCEIVABLE TO ME, MY FIRST BORN. AND I THINK THAT BY
NATURE I'M A FIXER. I'M A PERSON THAT NEEDS TO LABEL AND IDENTIFY AND
THEN FIX THINGS. AND SO THE BIRTH OF TERRY REALLY JUST ROCKED ME
BECAUSE THE -- FIRST, I HAD TO COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THERE WAS NO
NEED TO FIX THIS. I COULD NOT FIX THIS. AND THERE WAS NO NEED TO FIX
TERRY, HE WAS PERFECT. AND AS HE'S GROWN I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH.
AND I REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT GOD PUTS PEOPLE IN OUR PATHS, IN OUR LIVES
TO TEACH US THINGS. TO TEACH US THE RIGHT WAY TO BE, THE RIGHT WAY TO
LIVE. AND I THINK THAT I'M A -- I'M A MUCH DIFFERENT PERSON THAN I
WOULD HAVE BEEN HAD I NOT BEEN TERRY'S MOM. AND I KNOW THAT IT
INFORMS THE WORK THAT I DO ON THE FLOOR OF THE ASSEMBLY. I THINK THAT
WITHIN THE AUTISM COMMUNITY THERE HAS BEEN THIS MOVE FROM
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
AWARENESS TO ACTION AND NOW TO ACCEPTANCE. AND BY ACCEPTANCE IT'S
NOT COMPLACENCY. WE STILL HAVE SO MUCH TO LEARN ABOUT AUTISM AND
NEURODIVERSITY. BUT WHAT I'VE COME TO LEARN ABOUT MY SON AND ABOUT
MANY WITH AUTISM IS THAT THEY ARE SUCH A BEAUTIFUL AND PERFECT PIECE OF
OUR COMMUNITIES, AND WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN TO MAKE
SURE THAT THEY LIVE THEIR BEST LIVES. THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT. THE PEOPLE
THAT HELP TO TAKE CARE OF THEM NEED THEIR -- NEED SUPPORT. FAMILIES OF
KIDS WITH AUTISM AND ADULTS WITH AUTISM NEED OUR SUPPORT. AND WE AS
A CHAMBER AND WE AS A HOUSE CAN DO SO MUCH LEGISLATIVELY AND -- AND
BUDGETARILY TO HELP SUPPORT THESE EFFORTS. BUT -- BUT I'M PROUD TO BE
TERRY'S MOM AND HE HAS TAUGHT ME A GREAT DEAL. AND ONE OF THOSE
THINGS IS THAT SOMETIMES THE LABEL JUST DOESN'T MATTER. IT'S THE PERSON
AND WHAT THAT PERSON BRINGS TO THE WORLD THAT WE HAVE TO CELEBRATE AND
EMBRACE.
SO, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU SO MUCH.
MR. ABINANTI ON THE RESOLUTION.
MR. ABINANTI: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I THANK
THE SPONSOR FOR INTRODUCING THIS RESOLUTION AND CALLING ATTENTION TO THE
NEED FOR OUR COMMUNITY TO ACCEPT PEOPLE AS THEY ARE. WHATEVER RACE,
WHATEVER CREED, WHATEVER HEIGHT, WHATEVER WEIGHT, WHATEVER COLOR,
WHATEVER ABILITIES. WE ARE ONE COMMUNITY, AND TOGETHER WE ARE A
STRONGER COMMUNITY. YOU KNOW, THOSE OF US WHO ARE A PART OF THE
DISABILITY COMMUNITY UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE WITH AUTISM MOST WANT,
MOST WANT TO BE PART OF OUR COMMUNITY. TO HAVE A ROLE, TO NOT BE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
EXCLUDED. TO BE ACCEPTED FOR WHO THEY ARE. THEY HAVE ABILITIES
SOMETIMES STRONGER THAN WHAT MANY OF THE REST OF US HAVE. THEY JUST
WANT TO BE ACCEPTED, WANT TO BE PART OF OUR COMMUNITY. I'M THE FATHER
OF A BEAUTIFUL 22-YEAR-OLD YOUNG MAN, AND I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT
PEOPLE BY WATCHING HIM GROW, TRYING TO HELP HIM FIT INTO OUR
COMMUNITY. HE'S GETTING THERE. HE STILL HAS A LONG WAY TO GO. BUT HE
HAS SO MUCH TO -- TO DO. WE ARE SO PROUD THAT JUST THE OTHER DAY ONE OF
HIS AIDES CONVINCED AN EMPLOYER TO GIVE HIM A CHANCE FOR A COUPLE OF
HOURS A WEEK. AND MY SON IS SO HAPPY WHEN HE GETS THAT CHANCE TO DO
SOMETHING POSITIVE.
SO I WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR AGAIN, AND JUST REMIND
EVERYBODY WE NEED TO ACCEPT PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE. THANK YOU,
MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
ON THE RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING
AYE; OPPOSED, NAY. THE RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NO. 726, MS.
HUNTER.
LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR
KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM APRIL 2022 AS THE MONTH OF THE MILITARY
CHILD IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. HUNTER ON THE
RESOLUTION.
MS. HUNTER: YES. GOOD MORNING, MR. SPEAKER,
AND THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO SPEAK ON THIS IMPORTANT RESOLUTION.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
APRIL 2022 IS THE 35TH ANNUAL MONTH OF THE MILITARY CHILD. THIS
ANNUAL COMMEMORATION ALLOWS US TO RECOGNIZE THE SACRIFICES THAT
CHILDREN IN MILITARY FAMILIES MAKE AND HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANT ROLE
THEY PLAY IN THE ARMED FORCES COMMUNITY. WHILE THEY DO NOT WEAR A
UNIFORM, THE CHILDREN OF OUR SERVICE MEMBERS SHOULDER THE BURDENS OF
SERVICE. IN NEW YORK STATE THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY 44,000 CHILDREN
OF ACTIVE SERVICE MEMBERS. MILITARY FAMILIES FREQUENTLY MOVE,
MEANING CHILDREN ARE FORCED TO CHANGE SCHOOLS AND SAY GOODBYE TO
THEIR FRIENDS AND COMMUNITY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE YEAR. DEPLOYMENTS
CAN LAST MONTHS AND EVEN YEARS, AND CHILDREN MUST SAY GOODBYE TO
THEIR PARENTS WITHOUT KNOWING WHEN THEY'LL BE REUNITED AGAIN. MAJOR
LIFE EVENTS LIKE BIRTHDAYS, HOLIDAYS AND EVEN HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATIONS
ARE CELEBRATED WITH A PHONE CALL. AND FOR SOME IT MEANS LIVING WITH
THE PAIN OF LOSS OF A PARENT WHO MADE THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE. EVEN
AFTER THEIR PARENTS LEFT THE MILITARY, THESE CHILDREN CONTINUE TO FACE
CHALLENGES. THEY GET TO SEE THE STRUGGLE THEIR PARENTS FACE WHILE
TRANSITIONING TO CIVILIAN LIFE. IN SOME CASES THEY MUST HELP TAKE OF
THEIR PARENTS IF THEY SUFFERED WOUNDS OR INJURIES FROM THEIR SERVICE. AS
A VETERAN MYSELF, I KNOW THE CHALLENGES OUR FAMILIES FACE ALL TOO WELL.
THIS MONTH AND EVERY MONTH I RECOGNIZE THE HARDSHIPS THESE CHILDREN
FACE EVERY DAY AND THE UNEQUIVOCAL STRENGTH TO SUPPORT THEIR BRAVE
FAMILY MEMBER.
IN HONOR OF THE MONTH OF THE MILITARY CHILD, I URGE ALL
MY COLLEAGUES TO CELEBRATE THE CHILDREN OF OUR BRAVE SERVICE MEMBERS
AND SHOW OUR APPRECIATION FOR THEIR SACRIFICES TO OUR COUNTRY BY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
PASSING THIS RESOLUTION. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MS.
HUNTER.
MR. ASHBY ON THE RESOLUTION.
MR. ASHBY: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I WANT TO
THANK THE SPONSOR FOR PUTTING FORTH THIS RESOLUTION. AND I THINK THERE'S
REALLY NO BETTER TIME THIS MONTH, TODAY BEING GOLD STAR SPOUSES DAY.
IT'S A DAY THAT WE CAN REMEMBER THOSE WHO PAID THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE
AND THE FAMILIES THAT THEY MAY HAVE LEFT BEHIND AND THE FAMILIES THAT
ARE STILL HERE CARRYING ON. OVER MY TIME IN -- IN SERVICE, ONE OF THE
HARDEST THINGS THAT WE HAD TO DO WAS TO SAY GOODBYE TO -- TO OUR
FAMILIES WHEN WE HAD -- WHEN WE HAD TO DEPLOY. AND MY SON WAS
BORN LESS THAN A MONTH BEFORE MY -- MY FIRST DEPLOYMENT, AND I CAN
REMEMBER THE HARDEST THING AFTER THAT WAS WHEN I CAME HOME FROM
LEAVE AND I HAD TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN. BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU -- YOU GET
-- YOU GET A LITTLE PRACTICE WITH IT AND YOU GET A LITTLE BIT BETTER. BUT
WHAT OUR CHILDREN AND OUR FAMILIES GO THROUGH, YOU KNOW, DURING THAT
TIME, WE'RE SEPARATED FROM THEM DURING THOSE DEPLOYMENTS. MAYBE
WE GET TO E-MAIL BACK AND FORTH, MAKE A FEW PHONE CALLS AND HEAR
ABOUT THINGS, BUT WE REALLY ARE SEPARATED IN A WAY THAT IS VERY HARD TO
OVERCOME. AND AS THE SPONSOR SAID PREVIOUSLY, WHEN WE COME HOME
IT IS THEN THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THAT SERVICE MEMBER AND THEIR FAMILY TO
REUNITE AND SOMETIMES THAT CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT. AND THE CHILDREN
TAKE A LARGE PART IN THAT, AND I THINK A RESPONSIBILITY THAT IS SOMETIMES
FOREIGN TO SOME OF THEIR PEERS IN SCHOOL.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
AND SO I -- I'M SO GRATEFUL THAT THE SPONSOR PUT
FORWARD THIS RESOLUTION AND WE CONTINUE THIS TRADITION OF HONORING OUR
MILITARY FAMILIES. I BELIEVE IT'S SOME 44,000 CHILDREN IN OUR OWN STATE
BELONG IN THIS CATEGORY. THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR. SPEAKER. AND THANK
YOU TO THE SPONSOR AGAIN.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
ON THE RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING
AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.
ON THE DEBATE LIST, PAGE 18, CALENDAR NO. 178, THE
CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A005541-B, CALENDAR
NO. 178, ENGLEBRIGHT, STECK, O'DONNELL, GRIFFIN, OTIS, SAYEGH, NIOU.
AN ACT DIRECTING THE DEPARTMENTS OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AND
HEALTH TO ESTABLISH ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS FOR AMBIENT LEAD AND LEAD
CONTAMINATION IN SOILS; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS
UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS
REQUESTED, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YES, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
THIS IS A BILL THAT WILL HELP PROTECT THE PUBLIC AND CHILDREN FROM THE
HARMFUL EFFECTS OF AMBIENT LEAD IN THE -- IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT
THEY'RE IN CONTACT WITH. IT REQUIRES THAT A REPORT BE ISSUED BACK TO THE
LEGISLATURE BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND THE DEPARTMENT OF
ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION BY JUST A LITTLE MORE THAN A YEAR FROM
NOW.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SMULLEN.
MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS, PLEASE?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL
YOU YIELD?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS,
SIR.
MR. SMULLEN: WELL, THANK YOU, CHAIRMAN. I
APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A PUBLIC DIALOGUE ABOUT ANOTHER
LEAD BILL HERE IN THIS CHAMBER AS WE GET READY TO -- TO PASS OUR BUDGET.
I -- I APPRECIATE YOUR EXPLANATION. BUT CAN YOU REFLECT OR TELL US HOW
THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION COMMITTEE, WHAT WAS THE GENESIS OF
THIS BILL WHICH -- WHICH REQUIRES THE COMMITTEE TO ACT ON THIS ISSUE?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION.
THE -- THE NEED IS BASED ON THE DETERMINATION MADE BY THE CENTERS FOR
DISEASE CONTROL THAT THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL OF LEAD FOR CHILDREN, AND THAT
AS OUR STAFF REVIEWED THE REGULATIONS BOTH AT THE STATE LEVEL AND AT THE
NATIONAL LEVEL, WE REALIZED THAT THERE WAS A NEED FOR AN UPDATE.
MR. SMULLEN: OKAY. SO THANK YOU. I -- I
APPRECIATE YOU BRINGING UP THE -- THE SAFE LEVELS OF LEAD. IS IT YOUR
INTENTION, THEN, TO HAVE THE LEVELS OF LEAD IN -- IN HOUSING TO BE ZERO?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IDEALLY WE WOULD FIND A WAY
TO REMOVE -- LEAD PAINT -- AS YOU KNOW, IN 1978 LEAD PAINT WAS BANNED
BUT MANY OF OUR RESIDENCES AND BUILT STRUCTURES HAVE PAINT FROM THAT
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ERA AND EARLIER. CHILDREN SOMETIMES TRY OUT THEIR NEW TEETH, THEY --
THEY CHEW ON WINDOW SILLS, ON PAINTED DOORS. USUALLY BRIGHT WORK
THAT'S BEEN PAINTED OVER. BUT THE -- THE NET EFFECT IS THAT CHILDREN ARE
EXPOSED TO LEAD SOMETIMES JUST BY BEING CHILDREN. IT'S ALSO DUST. IT'S
AMBIENT DUST, AND SOMETIMES IN PLAY AREAS. SOMETIMES THEY ENCOUNTER
LEAD THAT IS A RESIDUE FROM LEADED GASOLINE WHICH, AGAIN, WE'RE -- WE'RE
TRYING TO GET RID OF LEAD AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN ALL OF THESE SETTINGS.
MR. SMULLEN: WELL, I -- I APPRECIATE THAT. THE
REASON I ASK IS THAT I'M VERY INTERESTED IN THE SCOPE OF THIS BILL. FROM
WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND I'D LIKE YOU TO EITHER TO CONFIRM OR DENY, THIS
BILL HAS TO DO WITH RESIDENTIAL INSTANCES WHERE LEAD IS IN HOUSEHOLDS OR
IS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY BECAUSE PART OF IT IS ABOUT SOIL CONTAMINATION. IS
THAT WHAT THIS REFERS TO?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT -- IT IS NOT LIMITED JUST TO
RESIDENCES, IT BASICALLY IS ANYWHERE THAT LEAD MAY BE FOUND. BUT IT'S
OFTEN IN RESIDENCES AND WE'RE TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO ELIMINATE THE
HAZARD. NO SAFE LEVEL MEANS THAT CHILDREN, PARTICULARLY WHO HAVE
IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT HAVE NOT FULLY DEVELOPED, ARE SUBJECTED TO
SYSTEM DAMAGE TO THEIR NERVOUS SYSTEMS, TO THEIR ABILITY TO LEARN. EVEN
BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS RESULT FROM EXPOSURE TO LEAD. IT IS A COST, IF YOU
WILL, TO OUR CHILDREN THAT WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO
ELIMINATE THAT HAZARD, WHEREVER IT'S FOUND. SO WE'RE ASKING THESE
DEPARTMENTS TO TAKE THE INCONSISTENCIES AND REVIEW THEM AND PROVIDE
US WITH A STATUS REPORT, BASICALLY, ON A REVIEW AND AN ADAPTION STRATEGY
FOR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES THAT WILL HELP PROTECT OUR CHILDREN AND OUR
15
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
FAMILIES.
MR. SMULLEN: AND -- AND REGARDING THAT, ONE OF
THE AREAS WHERE THERE'S GREAT CONCERN FOR LEAD IS IN THE FIXTURES THAT PUT
WATER INTO PEOPLE'S HOMES. WOULD THIS BILL APPLY TO THOSE PIPINGS AND
FIXTURES FROM THE SOURCE OF WATER THROUGH THE PROCESSING PLANT, THROUGH
THE ACTUAL DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM AND THEN INTO THE PRIVATE PROPERTY WHERE
THAT WATER IS USED BY -- BY OUR CITIZENS?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE -- THIS BILL DOES NOT
SPECIFICALLY REQUIRE THAT THOSE SOURCES, YOU KNOW, BE -- BE ACTED UPON.
THIS IS A BILL THAT REQUIRES THE AGENCIES TO THINK AND TO GIVE US ADVICE
AS TO WHERE WE SHOULD BE GOING, AND TO ESTABLISH STANDARDS THAT ARE
CONSISTENT WITH -- WITH PRESENT SCIENCE. IT DOES NOT PROVIDE REVENUE TO
LOCAL JURISDICTIONS TO REPLACE LEAD PIPES. IT'S NOT A REVENUE BILL. THIS IS
--
MR. SMULLEN: UNDER -- UNDERSTOOD.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THIS IS A PROCEDURE OF
ANALYSIS LEADING TO STANDARDS THAT ARE COHERENT AND UPDATED.
MR. SMULLEN: AND SO NEXT I'D LIKE TO TALK A LITTLE
BIT ABOUT THOSE STANDARDS, ACTUALLY, WHICH APPLY. CURRENTLY TODAY, HOW
ARE NEW YORK STATE STANDARDS THAT ARE REGULATED BY DEC AND BY THE
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, HOW DO THEY COMPARE TO FEDERAL STANDARDS
WHICH ARE ADMINISTERED BY THE EPA?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE HAVE FOUND THAT NEW
YORK STANDARDS ARE NOT EVEN UP TO DATE WITH -- WITH THE EPA. EPA IN
2021 ISSUED NEW STANDARDS THAT THE -- IT APPEARS OUR STATE AGENCIES
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
HAVE NOT YET ADOPTED.
MR. SMULLEN: BUT -- BUT NEW YORK STATE SHOULD
BE FOLLOWING THOSE STANDARDS BY FEDERAL LAW, WOULDN'T YOU SAY, UNDER
THE --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WHAT --
MR. SMULLEN: -- THE CLEAN WATER ACT?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THAT WE
NOTICED THAT THERE IS A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN EVEN THE FEDERAL AGENCIES.
EPA IS ON A DIFFERENT PAGE THAN THE CDC. CDC IS MORE ON TOP OF THIS
ISSUE, IT WOULD APPEAR, AND WE'RE REQUIRING THAT CDC STANDARDS BE
EXAMINED VERY CLOSELY AND EMULATED OR EXCEEDED BY OUR STATE AS THEY
REVIEW EXISTING SCIENCE AND MAKE THE BEST RECOMMENDATIONS BACK TO
US BY JUNE 1ST OF -- OF NEXT YEAR.
MR. SMULLEN: SO BACK TO THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL
AND THE COMPARATIVE NATURE OF STANDARDS. CURRENTLY, THE FEDERAL
STANDARDS ADMINISTERED BY THE EPA ARE GREATER -- ARE HIGHER THAN NEW
YORK STATE'S STANDARDS OR VICE VERSA?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: FOR SOME SETTINGS. IT'S NOT
UNIVERSAL.
MR. SMULLEN: BUT SAY FOR LEAD PAINT, ISN'T IT? FOR
INSTANCE, YOU BROUGHT UP LEAD PAINT. ARE -- ARE FEDERAL STANDARDS
HIGHER THAN STATE STANDARDS AT THIS POINT?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YEAH, PAINT, THEY'RE PROBABLY
COMPARABLE. WE -- WE'RE SAYING, THOUGH, THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A -- A
YARD, A BACKYARD OR ON A WINDOWSILL FOR DUST, YOU KNOW, ON CERTAIN
17
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
LEVEL SURFACES, THE STANDARDS VARY AND ARE KIND OF ALL OVER THE PLACE.
MR. SMULLEN: OKAY. SO, YOU KNOW, IF -- IF WE'RE
LOOKING AT -- AND DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT THIS STUDY OR THIS EFFORT BY
DEC AND THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH WILL RESULT IN A RAISING OR A
LOWERING OF NEW YORK STATE'S STANDARDS COMPARED TO FEDERAL
STANDARDS?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: AGAIN, WHEN WE TALK FEDERAL
WE ANTICIPATE THAT STATE STANDARDS WILL AT LEAST EQUAL OR EXCEED THE
CDC FEDERAL STANDARD.
MR. SMULLEN: AND RELATIVE TO THE AMOUNT OF
RESOURCES THAT, SAY, A FEDERAL ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCY SUCH AS THE EPA
OR THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL, EQUIVALENT TO THE DEC AND THE
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, DOES -- DO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RESOURCES,
ARE THEY GREATER OR SMALLER THAN DEC'S RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO, AS YOU
SAY, GET TO THE SCIENCE OF THIS AND THEN PROVIDE SOME MILESTONES AND
SOME STANDARDS THAT WE HAVE TO FOLLOW IN NEW YORK STATE?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: GENERALLY, THE FEDERAL
BUDGET IS LARGER THAN OUR BUDGET, BUT INSIDE OF EACH AGENCY THE
DISTRIBUTION OF FUNDS IS SOMEWHAT OPAQUE. SO I DON'T REALLY HAVE THE
ABILITY TO TELL YOU SPECIFICALLY HOW MANY DOLLARS AT THE FEDERAL OR EVEN
AT THE STATE LEVEL ARE PRESENTLY COMMITTED. WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THIS IS
A PRIORITY, WE WANT YOU TO STUDY IT AND REPORT BACK TO US AFTER YOU HAVE
EXAMINED ALL OF THESE VARIABLES AND DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE GOING
FORWARD TO PROTECT OUR CHILDREN AND OUR FAMILIES FROM THE LONG-TERM
HUMAN HEALTH PROBLEMS THAT EMANATE FROM LEAD IN THE ENVIRONMENT.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. SMULLEN: SO, YOU'RE SAYING THAT OUR
STANDARDS IN NEW YORK STATE RIGHT NOW DO NOT FULLY PROTECT OUR
CHILDREN FROM THE HAZARDS OF LEAD IN THE HOME, FOR INSTANCE.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THAT IS WHAT ONE WOULD
CONCLUDE BASED UPON THE CDC DETERMINATION THAT THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL
FOR CHILDREN FOR LEAD EXPOSURE. AND WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE NUMEROUS
SOURCES - YOU'VE MENTIONED SOME YOURSELF - OF LEAD; PIPES, SOLDER, OLD
SOLDER, SOIL, DUST. ALL OF THESE PROVIDE PATHWAYS FOR ILLNESS AND
IMPAIRMENT.
MR. SMULLEN: SO FROM A LEGISLATIVE PERSPECTIVE
AND -- AND WE'RE HERE TO LEGISLATE TO GIVE WORDS TO THE DEPARTMENT OF
ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION, THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, WHAT DOES
FULLY PROTECTED MEAN FROM YOUR LEGISLATIVE INTENT?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, THE FULLY PROTECTED
WOULD BE AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO ZERO EXPOSURE TO LEAD. WE'D LIKE THEM
TO TRY TO ANALYZE THE -- THE VARIOUS WAYS THAT WE MIGHT ACHIEVE THAT
GOAL.
MR. SMULLEN: OKAY. AND BECAUSE WE, IN -- AND
THE SENSE OF THIS BODY IS WE ARE NOT COMPLYING WITH THE FEDERAL TOXIC
SUBSTANCES ACT? IS THAT...
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I'M NOT SURE HOW TO COMPORT
WITH THAT PARTICULAR FEDERAL ACT. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT AS WE LOOK
AT REGULATIONS BETWEEN THE VARIOUS FEDERAL AGENCIES THERE IS
INCONSISTENCY. THERE APPEARS TO BE A MUCH MORE THOUGHTFUL AND
STRICTER STANDARD FROM THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL, AND WE FAVOR A
19
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
COMPLETE REVIEW OF FEDERAL AND STATE REGULATIONS AND A WAY TO
RECONCILE AND HARMONIZE IS -- TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE MAKE ADVICE AND
RECOMMENDATIONS AND POLICY TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE.
MR. SMULLEN: THANK YOU, CHAIRMAN.
MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. SMULLEN: I -- I REALLY APPRECIATE THE IDEA
BEHIND THIS BILL. BUT LIKE MANY BILLS THAT WE BRING FORWARD IN THIS
HOUSE, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RECONCILE HOW FEDERAL STANDARDS ARE GOING
TO BE COMPARED TO STATE STANDARDS. AND IN THIS CASE THERE IS, YOU
KNOW, THERE IS SOME DISAGREEMENT AS TO WHETHER WHICH STANDARD IS
SUFFICIENT TO REGULATE THIS AREA. AND WHAT CONCERNS ME MOST ABOUT THIS
BILL IS THAT IT STUDIES SOMETHING AND THEN GIVES THE REGULATORY POWER TO
THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AND THE DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH, WHICH THEY CURRENTLY HAVE, TO STANDARDS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT
BE SUFFICIENT. BUT THEN THEY ALLOW FOR A SIGNIFICANT BILL TO BE PLACED
UPON EITHER LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES OR PRIVATE LANDOWNERS FOR LEAD LEVELS
WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE HARMFUL IN -- IN PRIVATE PROPERTY ALL AROUND
THE STATE. AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE GOAL IS TO BE ZERO. I JUST DON'T SEE
HOW WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF INVESTMENT BY THE STATE
HOW THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. AND THAT'S WHY I'M ALWAYS FEARFUL OF
CHANGING REGULATORY GOALPOSTS OUTSIDE A LARGER NATIONAL FRAMEWORK,
WHICH INHERENTLY GETS ALL OF THE ISSUES OUT ON THE TABLE WHERE AS WE, IN
THIS BODY, MAY ONLY LEGISLATE FOR NEW YORK, WHICH IS OUR -- WHICH IS
OUR MISSION. BUT IT MAKES IT VERY CONFUSING, PARTICULARLY FOR THOSE THAT
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ARE IN BUILDING INDUSTRIES, THOSE THAT MAINTAIN AND THOSE THAT BUY AND
SELL ALL OF THE -- THE PROPERTIES AROUND THE STATE. AND WHAT'S
PARTICULARLY CONCERNING IS, AS I UNDERSTAND THE GOAL BEHIND THIS BILL, BUT
I THINK THERE'S MUCH MORE LOW-HANGING FRUIT WHICH COULD BE ADDRESSED
WHICH I WOULD HOPE WOULD BE A HIGH -- HIGHER PRIORITY BY THIS BODY,
INCLUDING LEAD IN PIPES AND PARTICULARLY THOSE IN OUR DENSE URBAN AREAS
WHICH -- WHICH THERE ARE A LOT OF KIDS WHICH ARE STILL SUBJECT TO
UNACCEPTABLE LEVELS OF LEAD WHICH ARE ALREADY IN VIOLATION OF CURRENT
STANDARDS, WHERE INSTEAD WE'RE TRYING CHANGE TO A -- AN EXTREMELY SLOW
STANDARD WHICH MAY BE DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE WITHOUT MASSIVE
INVESTMENT THAT'S -- THAT'S NOT SCOPED.
FOR THAT REASON, I'M VERY WEARY OF BILLS LIKE THIS, AND
FOR THAT REASON I WILL BE NOT VOTING FOR THIS LEGISLATION, BUT ENCOURAGE
ALL MY COLLEAGUES TO CAREFULLY CONSIDER IT, TO -- TO LOOK AT THE PLUSES
AND MINUSES OF IT AND HELP DEVELOP GOING FORWARD FURTHER LEGISLATION,
YOU KNOW, PERHAPS IN THE FUTURE WHICH MAY BE BETTER SCOPED TO GIVE
GUIDANCE TO OUR DEPARTMENTS, ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AND THE
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. MR. SPEAKER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO YOURSELF
AND TO THE CHAIRMAN.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR
YIELD?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL
YOU YIELD?
21
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT. AM I
CORRECT UNDER CURRENT LAW THE DEC CAN DO THIS STUDY ON THEIR OWN?
THEY DON'T NEED OUR AUTHORIZATION, DO THEY?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE DEC HAS BROAD
REGULATORY CAPABILITY. THEY SOMETIMES NEED TO BE REMINDED OF WHERE
THE LEGISLATIVE PRIORITIES ARE. THIS IS SUCH AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEND A
VERY STRONG SIGNAL THAT WE REALLY CARE DEEPLY ABOUT THE -- THE IMPACT OF
LEAD, DUST AND AMBIENT LEAD OF ALL KINDS UPON OUR CHILDREN.
MR. GOODELL: BUT I THINK YOU AND I BOTH AGREE
THEY CERTAINLY HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO STUDY LEAD ON THEIR OWN AND REVIEW
IT. AND OF COURSE SOMETIMES WE ENCOURAGE THE DEC OR OTHER
ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCIES WITH A LETTER OFTEN SIGNED BY MANY OF OUR
COLLEAGUES. HAVE WE SENT SUCH A LETTER TO THE DEC ASKING THEM TO
UPDATE THE -- THE LEAD STANDARDS?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WE'VE PROBABLY DONE THAT. I
-- I DON'T THINK LATELY.
MR. GOODELL: I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: BUT THIS IS A LETTER OF SORTS --
MR. GOODELL: I'M NOT RECOMMENDING YOU DO THAT
WITH A LEAD PENCIL.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I WOULDN'T WANT TO DO THAT
WITH A LEAD PENCIL, BUT EVEN INK PROBABLY HAS LEAD IN IT. THAT'S -- IT'S
WHY IT'S -- IF YOU'RE USING A BLACK INK AND YOU'RE AN ATTORNEY, YOU'RE
22
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
RECOMMENDING YOUR CLIENTS ALWAYS USE BLACK WHEN THEY'RE SIGNING
DOCUMENTS.
MR. GOODELL: NOW, LOOKING AT --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT'S LEAD.
MR. GOODELL: LOOKING AT THE LEGISLATIVE LANGUAGE
THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING IT ONLY DEALS WITH DUST LEAD HAZARDS?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: PRIMARILY --
MR. GOODELL: AND --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YEAH.
MR. GOODELL: WELL, THERE 'S MORE. SOIL, LEAD
HAZARDS AND AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: CORRECT. YES.
MR. GOODELL: SO, THIS LEGISLATION BY ITSELF WOULD
NOT RELATE TO OTHER TYPES OF LEAD EXPOSURE?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: AS YOU POINTED OUT A
MOMENT AGO, THE AGENCY IS NOT LIMITED. WE ARE SENDING THEM A SIGNAL
TODAY URGING THEM TO -- TO DO SOMETHING THAT GIVES US GUIDANCE AND
ALSO ACTS WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITY, AND THE AUTHORITY AND IMPETUS OF THIS
MEASURE ITSELF.
MR. GOODELL: WHEN WAS --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: MAKING THIS A PRIORITY.
MR. GOODELL: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THE DEC
ISSUED LEAD STANDARDS?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I THINK IT WAS 2021 FOR DEC.
WELL, IT'S BEEN LONGER THAN THAT. STARTING IN 1995 AND MOST RECENTLY IN
23
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
2006, I'M BEING TOLD.
MR. GOODELL: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I
APPRECIATE --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: YOU'RE WELCOME.
MR. GOODELL: -- YOUR COMMENTS.
MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.
GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: I APPRECIATE THE DESIRE TO MINIMIZE
LEAD. I THINK IT'S A WORTHWHILE GOAL AND CERTAINLY ONE THAT WE'VE SEEN
TREMENDOUS PROGRESS NATIONWIDE. WE USED TO PUT MASSIVE, MASSIVE
AMOUNTS OF LEAD IN THE AIR. WE'VE HAD LEAD AS AN ADDITIVE ON GASOLINE.
AND SO EVERY TIME YOU SAW A CAR GO BY IT WAS BUSY PUTTING LEAD INTO
THE AIR FOR US TO BREATHE. AND OF COURSE THAT LEAD ULTIMATELY SETTLED
ONTO THE SOIL SO WE HAVE RESIDUAL LEAD. AS MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT,
RIGHT NOW, PERHAPS THE MOST IMMEDIATE THREAT TO MOST KIDS FROM LEAD
THAT COMES NOT FROM THE AIR THEY BREATHE, BUT FROM THE WATER THEY
DRINK. AND THAT'S BECAUSE A LOT OF OUR MUNICIPAL WATER SYSTEMS AND
EVEN PRIVATE WATER SYSTEMS USED LEAD SOLDER OR LEAD PIPES AND THAT'S A
CONTINUING SOURCE OF LEAD. AS THE SPONSOR NOTED, THE DEC CERTAINLY
HAS FULL AUTHORITY TO STUDY WHATEVER CONTAMINANTS IT WANTS TO AND TO
ENACT STANDARDS THAT THEY FEEL ARE REASONABLE AND APPROPRIATE. AND AS
MY COLLEAGUE NOTED, THEY'VE DONE THIS FOR THE LAST 20 OR 30 YEARS AS IT
RELATES TO LEAD. AND IN ADDITION, WE HAVE THE EPA, THE FEDERAL EPA
AND THE CDC AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING. AND
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SO WHILE I APPRECIATE THE FOCUS ON LEAD I'M NOT -- I DON'T THINK IT'S
NECESSARY FOR US TO PASS A LAW ASKING THE DEC TO STUDY IT. AND THE
IRONY THING FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE IS IF WE PASS A LAW SAYING, HEY,
STUDY LEAD, WHY AREN'T WE PASSING LAWS, SAY, ON EVERY OTHER
CONTAMINANT IN THE WORLD? I THINK THE BETTER APPROACH IS TO TRUST THE
EXPERTISE OF OUR SCIENTISTS THAT WORK FOR THE DEC, TRUST THE SCIENTISTS
THAT WORK FOR THE EPA AND THE CDC, AND IF WE THINK THEY NEED TO BE
ENCOURAGED TO CERTAINLY SEND THEM A LETTER. BUT I -- I DON'T THINK IT'S
NECESSARY NOR PARTICULARLY HELPFUL TO PASS BILLS ASKING THE DEC TO
CONTINUE DOING WHAT THEY'VE ALREADY -- ALREADY HAVE BEEN DOING.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, IF THE
SPONSOR COULD YIELD FOR A QUESTION, PLEASE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT, WILL
YOU YIELD?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, SIR. MR.
ENGLEBRIGHT, DO YOU KNOW WHAT YEAR WAS IT IN NEW YORK STATE THAT
LEAD IN PAINT WAS OUTLAWED?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I BELIEVE IT WAS 1978.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: 1978. A LONG, LONG TIME
AGO.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: A LONG TIME AGO, YES.
25
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: SO, DO YOU KNOW WHEN
NEW YORK STATE REALIZED THAT LEAD HAD AN IMPACT ON THE NEUROLOGICAL
DEVELOPMENT OF CHILDREN? WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER 1978?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT WAS BEFORE THAT DATE. WE
-- WE -- EVEN SUBSEQUENT TO THAT DATE, THOUGH, WE HAVE ADDITIONAL
SCIENTIFIC INPUT, INCLUDING FROM OUR PARTNERS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL,
ESPECIALLY FROM THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL, THAT HAS REINFORCED
THE WISDOM OF BANNING LEAD IN PAINT, BANNING LEAD IN GASOLINE AND
ACTING IN OTHER WAYS TO RECOGNIZE IN POLICY THAT THIS IS A PARTICULARLY
PERNICIOUS AND DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE THAT HAS TERRIBLE HEALTH
CONSEQUENCES AND CREATES LEARNING DISABILITIES AND HAS GREAT SOCIETAL
COSTS. THOSE SOCIETAL COSTS ARE SO SEVERE THAT WE BELIEVE THAT IT'S
IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN UPDATE, AND THAT'S WHAT THIS MEASURE CALLS FOR.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, SIR. I WOULD
WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR
COMMENTS.
MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: I MEAN, WE'RE IN 2022.
AND WHY WE WOULD HAVE TO DEBATE WHETHER OR NOT AN AGENCY THAT'S
SUPPOSED TO WORK IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL NEW YORKERS, WHETHER OR
NOT WE SHOULD ASK THEM TO DO A STUDY. APPARENTLY, IF THEY HAD THE
CAPACITY TO DO THESE STUDIES AND KEEP THEM UP TO DATE SO THAT WE COULD
GET THE BEST RESULTS FROM THEIR SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE TO HAVE AN IMPACT
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WE REPRESENT IN OUR RESPECTIVE DISTRICTS, WE WOULD
26
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SEE A BETTER OUTCOME. BUT -- BUT WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT OUTCOME. AND
IT'S BEEN A VERY, VERY, VERY LONG TIME THAT AS A SOCIETY WE'VE KNOWN THE
IMPACT THAT LEAD HAS ON CHILDREN AND THEIR ABILITY TO GROW AND DEVELOP
AND BE GOOD SELF-SUFFICIENT CITIZENS. AND YET WE KEEP MAKING EXCUSES
FOR WHY WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I AM ENCOURAGED BY THE
SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE I THINK HE HAS THE SAME LEVEL OF
INTOLERANCE THAT MANY OF US HAVE WHEN WE KNOW WE COULD DO BETTER
BUT WE AREN'T. IT'S TIME TO START DOING BETTER. IF WE LOOK ACROSS THE
NATION, NEW YORK HAS MORE YOUNG PEOPLE WITH LEAD POISONING THAN
ANY OTHER STATE IN THE NATION. AND SO CLEARLY, WE -- OUR SCIENTISTS ARE
NOT DOING SOMETHING THAT THEY COULD BE DOING. SO LET US ENCOURAGE
THEM TO DO THOSE THINGS THAT ARE NECESSARY. OF RECENT, MR. SPEAKER, WE
KNOW THAT THERE HAVE BEEN RESOURCES AVAILABLE THROUGH BOTH FEDERAL
AND STATE TO HELP GET LEAD OUT OF WATER PIPES IN COMMUNITIES. THAT'S
AWESOME. THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A -- A LOT LESS
LEAD IN GASOLINE NOW. THAT'S GREAT. THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. BUT THERE --
WE STILL LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH LEAD THAT IMPACTS
CHILDREN'S LIVES. AND IF WE WANT TO CREATE HEALTHY ADULTS, WE'VE GOT TO
CREATE HEALTHY CHILDREN. AND SO I -- I THINK THAT THIS IS GOOD
LEGISLATION, AND I HOPE THAT IT WILL REQUIRE THE AGENCY TO ACT WITH SOME
EXPEDIENCY TO ENSURE THAT WE CAN GET CLOSER TO SOME REAL SOLUTIONS FOR
THIS PROBLEM THAT WE'VE KNOWN ABOUT FOR MULTIPLE DECADES, YET WE STILL
ALLOW IT TO IMPACT US. AND IF WE DON'T THINK IT COSTS US MONEY ON THE
FRONT END, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT IT DEFINITELY COSTS US MONEY ON THE
BACK END. BECAUSE OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, WE PAY FOR THIS EVERY DAY
27
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
THAT WE REFUSE TO REMOVE LEAD FROM IMPACTING OUR CHILDREN. EVERY
DAY. AND SO IF WE WANT TO BE CONSERVATIVE, WE WANT TO PULL OUR
BUDGETS BACK IN LINE, WE GOT TO DO THE THINGS ON THE FRONT END THAT
WON'T COST US SO MUCH ON THE BACK END.
SO, AGAIN, MR. SPEAKER, I THINK THIS IS GREAT
LEGISLATION. I LOOK FORWARD TO VOTING IN FAVOR OF IT AND I HOPE MY
COLLEAGUES WILL JOIN ME IN DOING SO.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MR. MANKTELOW.
MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A QUESTION?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I YIELD.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ENGLEBRIGHT
YIELDS.
MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. AND
THANK YOU, MR. ENGLEBRIGHT. I APOLOGIZE, I GOT HERE A LITTLE LATE. I WAS
AT SOMETHING ELSE. IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE DEC AND THE DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH TAKE A LOOK AT THE DUST STUDIES OF THE DUST AND WHAT'S IN THE SOIL,
ARE WE GOING TO LOOK AT WHAT'S COMING INTO NEW YORK FROM OUTSIDE OF
THE STATE IN THAT STUDY?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THERE ARE NO LIMITS TO WHAT
THE AGENCIES ARE ABLE TO LOOK AT. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE KNOW REALLY
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF DUST, AMBIENT DUST IN -- IN OUR ATMOSPHERE IS FROM
IN-STATE OR OUT-OF-STATE. I CAN TELL YOU AN AWFUL LOT OF IT IS FROM
28
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
IN-STATE, BUT I CAN'T GIVE YOU A PERCENTAGE. AND SIMILARLY, IF WE'RE
ASKING THEM TO REVIEW THE LITERATURE, THEIR DISCOVERY MAY INCLUDE
INFORMATION THAT WOULD HELP ANSWER SPECIFICALLY HOW MUCH IS COMING
FROM OUT-OF-STATE.
MR. MANKTELOW: SO AT THE SAME TIME, IF THEY'RE
GOING TO LOOK AT THE SOIL CONTAMINATION IN THE -- WITH LEAD IN THE DUST,
ARE THEY ALSO GOING TO BE REQUIRED TO COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS TO TAKE
CARE OF THAT PROBLEM?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: WELL, THE SOLUTION WILL VARY
DEPENDING UPON THE SETTING. SOIL -- A SOLUTION FOR SOIL IS LIKELY TO BE
DIFFERENT FROM A SOLUTION FOR DUST FROM A CARPENTER'S ACTIVITIES IN -- IN
AN OLD HOME. BUT YES, WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO GIVE RECOMMENDATIONS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL
TOOK THE TIME TO CLARIFY THEIR LEVEL OF LEARNING AT THAT POINT IN TIME AND
TO DECLARE IN 2012 THAT THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL OF LEAD FOR CHILDREN. IT'S
BEEN A DECADE SINCE THEN. WE NEED FOR OUR AGENCIES AT THE STATE LEVEL
TO TAKE A HARD LOOK AT THE SCIENCE AND UPDATE THE RECOMMENDATIONS AND
REGULATIONS WITHIN OUR STATE.
MR. MANKTELOW: WILL PART OF THAT LOOK STUDY
ALSO INCORPORATE WHAT OTHER STATES ARE DOING AROUND US?
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THEY'RE NOT LIMITED. OF
COURSE WE ARE ASKING THEM TO LOOK AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, BUT THE FEDERAL,
OF COURSE, IN -- IN THE GENERIC SENSE INCLUDES ALL OF OUR SISTER STATES.
MR. MANKTELOW: I SEE IN THE MEMO THAT WE
DON'T ANTICIPATE ANY FISCAL IMPLICATIONS ON THIS TO THE STATE.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: IT SHOULD NOT REQUIRE AN
OUTLAY. WE HAVE PERSONNEL EVERY YEAR. THE FIRST QUESTION THAT WE ASK
THE COMMISSIONER OF THE DEC, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH PERSONNEL TO DO
YOUR JOB? WE GET THE ANSWER ONE WAY OR THE OTHER THAT, SURE,
EVERYTHING IS JUST SWELL. WE HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH.
MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE
OF THE QUESTIONS I WAS ASKING YOU --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I SAY THAT TONGUE-AND-CHEEK
--
MR. MANKTELOW: I KNOW.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: AND -- AND THAT'S NOT THE
EXACT WORDS THAT WE GET BACK, BUT THAT'S THE EXACT MEANING, YES. IT'S
JUST NOT CREDIBLE. WE -- WE REALLY NEED THEM TO ASK FOR THE RESOURCES
THAT THEY NEED AND ENABLE US TO THEN WRESTLE WITH WAYS TO PROVIDE IT.
THEY DON'T EVEN ASK. THEY'RE DOWN ONE-THIRD OF THEIR PERSONNEL, AND
YOU CAN SEE ONE OF THE RESULTS OF THAT IS THAT FOR MATTERS SUCH AS THIS,
THE FOLLOW-THROUGH LANGUISHES.
MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. YEAH, I HAVE CONCERN
WITH, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH CAN THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND ALSO
DEC DO. AND I KNOW THEY ALWAYS TELL US THAT THEY CAN GET IT DONE, AND
I APPLAUD THE COMMISSIONER, ESPECIALLY DEC, FOR THAT. BUT YOU AND I
BOTH KNOW, I KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH
DEC EMPLOYEES OUT THERE BECAUSE OUR TIMELINESS FOR JOBS OUT THERE IN
THE REAL WORLD OUTSIDE OF THIS BUILDING, THEY'RE NOT GETTING DONE IN A
TIMELY FASHION. ESPECIALLY HERE IN NEW YORK WHERE WE'RE ALREADY
30
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
AGAINST THE WEATHER EVERY SINGLE YEAR. SO IF WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS,
THERE -- THERE WILL BE SOME FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS TO THE STATE. AND IF
WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE OR MOVE THIS FORWARD THEN WE NEED TO MAKE
SURE THEY HAVE THE TOOLS AND THE FUNDING TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
BECAUSE I JUST DON'T WANT TO DO ANOTHER STUDY AND NOT MAKE THAT --
MAKE THAT HAPPEN. YOU KNOW, WE CAN DO A STUDY AND PUT IT ON THE
SHELF, BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO DO THE STUDY LET'S MAKE SURE WE DO
SOMETHING ABOUT THE STUDY. SO --
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THE STRINGS OF YOUR ARGUMENT
IS VERY LOGICAL. I CONCUR AND AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID.
MR. MANKTELOW: AND LAST WEEK I BELIEVE YOU
AND I HAD THE SAME CONVERSATION ON A DIFFERENT LEAD BILL - I THINK IT WAS
LEAD AMMO, ACTUALLY - AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF DIFFERENT
PLANTS, CORN, SOYBEANS, SUNFLOWERS, LEGUMES, ANYTHING LIKE THAT THAT
CAN ACTUALLY ABSORB LEAD AND USE IT WITHIN THE PLANT, TAKING IT OUT OF THE
SOIL. I HOPE IF -- IF THEY'RE GOING TO PURSUE OR PROCEED WITH THIS, I -- I
HOPE THEY INVOLVE AGRICULTURE TO BE ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS TO GETTING THAT
LEAD OUT OF THE SOILS.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I HOPE THEY HAVE A CLEAR-EYED
VISION OF THE SCOPE OF EXPOSURE. THE VARIOUS SETTINGS CERTAINLY DO
INCLUDE THE SOILS OF OUR FARMERS. THAT SHOULD NOT AT ALL BE IGNORED AS
THEY REVIEW THE LITERATURE AND REPORT BACK TO US.
MR. MANKTELOW: AND -- AND MY LAST QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DUST. DO YOU KNOW IF THERE'S EVER BEEN
A LEAD DUST STUDY ABOUT THIS BUILDING OR THE LOB BUILDING?
31
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT HAS
BEEN DONE. THIS IS MOSTLY A STONE BUILDING. I CAN TELL YOU SOMETHING
ABOUT THE STONES IF WE HAVE A SEPARATE CONVERSATION.
MR. MANKTELOW: YES, SIR.
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: SOME OF THEM HAVE COME
FROM AS FAR AWAY AS SCOTLAND. YOUR QUESTION IS A GOOD ONE, THOUGH.
I'LL -- I'LL LOOK INTO THAT. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
MR. MANKTELOW: BECAUSE I THINK AT THE SAME
TIME AS WE LOOK AT ALL NEW YORKERS, WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT THE NEW
YORKERS THAT ACTUALLY WORK IN THESE BUILDINGS THAT ARE HERE EACH AND
EVERY DAY. ALL OF OUR STAFF, DIFFERENT STAFF MEMBERS. SOME OF THE
PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, RESTAURANTS, DUNKIN DONUTS. I
JUST THINK THEY NEED TO BE PART OF THE EQUATION AS WELL. MAKING SURE IF
WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THIS ACROSS THE STATE THAT WE DON'T FORGET ABOUT
OUR GOVERNMENT WORKERS HERE AS WELL BECAUSE SOMETIMES WE KIND OF
PUSH THEM TO THE SIDE.
SO I APPRECIATE YOUR ANSWERS. AND I JUST HOPE THIS
DOES GET DONE AND I HOPE THAT THERE'S FUNDING THERE. I QUESTION THE
FUNDING PART OF IT. THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT I STRUGGLE WITH. AND I ALSO
WANT TO BE SURE THAT ALL THE PLAYERS ARE AT THE TABLE, AS WE TALKED
BEFORE, THAT CANNOT ONLY LOOK AT THE -- THE SITUATION WITH THE LEAD AND
THE SOIL AND THE DUST, BUT LET'S BRING THE OTHER PLAYERS FROM ACROSS THE
STATE, FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT CAN HELP REMEDIATE SOME OF THOSE
ISSUES THAT WE CAN DO IT IN A GOOD WAY THAT WILL BENEFIT ALL OF US. SO
THANK YOU, MR. SPONSOR, FOR YOUR TIME.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. ENGLEBRIGHT: THANK YOU, SIR.
MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ARE THERE -- OH.
READ THE LAST SECTION.
THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IN 90 DAYS.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD
THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 5541-B. THIS IS A FAST ROLL CALL. ANY
MEMBER WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED IN THE NEGATIVE IS REMINDED TO
CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS PREVIOUSLY
PROVIDED.
(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)
MR. GOODELL TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. I -- I DON'T REALLY
HAVE ANY PROBLEMS FOR THE BILL, BUT IT IS KIND OF STRANGE THAT WE'RE
ASKING THE DEC TO CONTINUE TO DO WHAT THEY'RE ALREADY AUTHORIZED AND
REQUIRED TO DO ANYWAY. BUT I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S DESIRE
TO LET THE DEC CONTINUE TO WORK ON THINGS THAT WE'VE ALREADY TASKED
THEM TO DO. AND WHILE I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT INSTEAD OF PASSING
LEGISLATION WE SIMPLY SEND THEM A LETTER ASKING THEM TO CONTINUE TO DO
WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY SERIOUS HARM IN
PASSING LEGISLATION THAT ACCOMPLISHES THE SAME PURPOSE. I WOULD
REMIND MY COLLEAGUES THAT, THANKFULLY, FOR THE MOST PART THE DEC DOES
A GREAT JOB. AND AS A RESULT OF THEIR CONTINUING EFFORTS WE'VE SEEN A
DRAMATIC REDUCTION IN THE AMOUNT OF LEAD EXPOSURE TO CHILDREN IN
PARTICULAR. WE SAW AN 84 PERCENT REDUCTION FROM 1988 TO 2004. WE
33
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SAW AN ADDITIONAL 84 PERCENT REDUCTION FROM 2004 TO 2009. AND MORE
RECENTLY WE SAW A 21 PERCENT REDUCTION FROM 2018 TO 2019. SO I, FOR
ONE, WANT TO COMMEND THE DEC AND OUR EXPERTS AND OUR PROFESSIONALS
AND THE INCREDIBLE JOB THEY'RE ALREADY DOING. BUT I DON'T SEE ANY
PARTICULAR HARM IN REMINDING THEM THAT WE WANT THEM TO CONTINUE THEIR
GREAT EFFORTS.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MR.
GOODELL.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.
(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)
THE BILL IS PASSED.
PAGE 20, CALENDAR NO. 190, THE CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05841-B, CALENDAR
NO. 190, GOTTFRIED, WEINSTEIN, SAYEGH, STECK, SIMON, CUSICK,
ABINANTI, COOK, GLICK, VANEL, LUNSFORD, CAHILL, L. ROSENTHAL,
BRONSON, ZEBROWSKI, THIELE, WILLIAMS, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, CARROLL,
FALL, GALLAGHER, FORREST, CRUZ, STIRPE, NOLAN, CLARK, COLTON,
SANTABARBARA, HUNTER, JACKSON, ZINERMAN, GRIFFIN, KELLES, JACOBSON,
FERNANDEZ, GALEF, SILLITTI. AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW, IN
RELATION TO THE USE OF PSYCHOTROPIC MEDICATIONS IN NURSING HOMES AND
ADULT CARE FACILITIES.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS
REQUESTED, MR. GOTTFRIED.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES, MR. SPEAKER. WE HAVE A
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SERIOUS PROBLEM IN OUR NURSING HOMES IN NEW YORK, ALSO AROUND THE
COUNTRY. NURSING HOMES ESSENTIALLY USING PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS AS A WAY
OF -- OF CONTROLLING THEIR RESIDENTS. YOU GIVE THEM PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS,
THEY -- THEY BECOME MUCH LESS ACTIVE, MUCH LESS VERBAL, MUCH EASIER
TO CONTROL. IT'S A SERIOUS EPIDEMIC IN OUR NURSING HOMES. THIS BILL IS
AN ATTEMPT TO TRY TO CONTROL THE USE OF PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS IN OUR
NURSING HOMES. IT SAYS THAT A -- A PRESCRIPTION FOR -- OR AN ORDER FOR
PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS CAN ONLY BE FOR 14 DAYS. IT WOULD THEN HAVE TO BE
RENEWED. AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT, IT PUTS IN SOME STRONGER
SPECIALIZED REQUIREMENTS FOR -- FOR CONSENT, FOR DOCUMENTING CONSENT,
FOR ADVISING THE PATIENT OR THE PATIENT'S REPRESENTATIVE ABOUT THE DRUG
AND ITS POSSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS AND ALTERNATIVES ET CETERA, ALL AIMED AT
TRYING TO AVOID THE USE OF PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS AS WHAT IS COMMONLY
CALLED "CHEMICAL RESTRAINTS."
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR
YIELD?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED YIELDS.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. GOTTFRIED. I SEE
THE BILL DEFINES WHAT WE MEAN BY PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS. IT INCLUDES, BUT
NOT LIMITED, TO ANTIPSYCHOTICS, ANTIDEPRESSANTS, ANTIANXIETY DRUGS AND A
COUPLE OF OTHERS. THESE TYPES OF DRUGS, AREN'T THEY OFTEN PRESCRIBED ON
A LONG-TERM BASIS FOR SOME PATIENTS?
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. GOTTFRIED: THEY CAN BE APPROPRIATELY
PRESCRIBED ON A LONG-TERM BASIS. THIS BILL DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH THAT.
ALL THAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN IS THAT THE PRESCRIPTION OR THE ORDER
WOULD BE RENEWED EVERY 14 DAYS.
MR. GOODELL: AND SOME OF THESE DRUGS, AM I
CORRECT, THAT IF YOU TERMINATE THEIR USE ABRUPTLY WITHOUT GOING THROUGH
WHAT I THINK IS GENERALLY REFERRED TO AS A GRADUAL DOSE REDUCTION, THAT
ABRUPT TERMINATION ITSELF CAN CAUSE SEVERE ISSUES; IS THAT CORRECT?
SEVERE HEALTH ISSUES.
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, YOU AND I BOTH HAVE
DEGREES WITH A D IN THEM EXCEPT THE FIRST LETTER IS A J NOT AN M. SO I'M
-- I'M NOT GOING TO TRY TO PRONOUNCE ON THE CONSEQUENCES OF RAPID
WITHDRAWAL FROM A PARTICULAR DRUG. THAT'S WHAT WE -- THAT'S WHAT WE
HIRE HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS TO KNOW ABOUT, AND IT WOULD BE THEIR
RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT IF -- IF THAT IS THE CASE THAT ANY
REDUCTION OR -- OR TERMINATION OF THE PRESCRIPTION OR THE ORDER BE DONE
IN CONSIDERATION OF THAT. BY PERHAPS A GRADUAL REDUCTION IN THE DOSAGE,
ET CETERA.
MR. GOODELL: I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOUR
ANALYSIS THAT THOSE DRUGS THAT SHOULD BE GRADUALLY REDUCED OUGHT TO BE
GRADUALLY REDUCED, CONSISTENT WITH A MEDICAL EXPERT'S PROFESSIONAL
OPINION. IS THERE ANY PROVISION IN THE LANGUAGE OF THIS BILL THAT WOULD
ALLOW FOR THAT GRADUAL REDUCTION IF FOR SOME REASON THEY COULD NOT
CONTACT OR GET CONSENT FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PATIENT AT THE END OF
THE 14-DAY PERIOD?
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. GOTTFRIED: IF THE PATIENT LACKS CAPACITY TO
CONSENT, WHETHER IT'S TO A REDUCTION IN THE PRESCRIPTION OR TO A -- TO A
STRAIGHT RENEWAL OF THE PRESCRIPTION, THERE IS LANGUAGE IN THE BILL AS FOR
HOW YOU DEAL WITH A PATIENT WHO LACKS CAPACITY TO CONSENT BUT WHO
DOES NOT HAVE A PATIENT REPRESENTATIVE OR WHOSE PATIENT REPRESENTATIVE
IS NOT AVAILABLE. ESSENTIALLY, THE BILL AT THAT POINT TURNS TO THE FAMILY
HEALTH CARE DECISIONS ACT THAT DEALS WITH CONSENT TO MEDICAL CARE IN A
HOSPITAL FOR A PATIENT WHO LACKS CAPACITY TO CONSENT BUT WHO HAS NO
SURROGATE AVAILABLE. SO, THE BILL DOES PROVIDE FOR THAT CIRCUMSTANCE.
MR. GOODELL: I SEE. THE BILL EXPRESSLY PROVIDES,
I SEE, AS AN EXCEPTION THAT A HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONAL COULD PROVIDE --
PRESCRIBE A PSYCHOTROPIC DRUG, AN ANTIDEPRESSANT OR ANTIANXIETY OR
ANTIPSYCHOTIC IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY WITHOUT GETTING PRIOR
APPROVAL; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. GOTTFRIED: THAT IS CORRECT.
MR. GOODELL: DOES -- YOU SAID THERE'S A CROSS-
REFERENCE TO THE STANDARDS THAT WOULD APPLY WHEN THERE'S NO ONE WHO
CAN CONSENT. WHERE IS THAT IN THE BILL?
MR. GOTTFRIED: PAGE 2, LINE 22 THROUGH 24.
REFERS TO THE SECTION 2994-G OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW.
MR. GOODELL: I SEE. AND SINCE IT'S DIFFICULT FOR
ME TO FOLLOW UP ON CROSS-REFERENCES AND HAVING INCORPORATION BY
REFERENCE WHICH, AS YOU KNOW, IS ACTUALLY PROHIBITED IN THE STATE
CONSTITUTION, INCORPORATION BY REFERENCE, FOR THIS VERY REASON, COULD
YOU SUMMARIZE WHAT THOSE PROVISIONS THAT I REFERENCED IN THIS CROSS-
37
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
REFERENCE PROVIDE FOR?
MR. GOTTFRIED: NOT READILY. IT'S A -- IT'S A FAIRLY
COMPLICATE -- IT'S A FAIRLY INVOLVED STATUTE. IT INVOLVES, AS I RECALL,
CONSULTATION WITH A -- WITH EITHER TWO HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS OR A
HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONAL AND A -- A SOCIAL SERVICES PROFESSIONAL. I'M --
I'M RECITING THIS FROM MEMORY SO I MAY NOT BE PRECISE. IT PROVIDES
STANDARDS FOR DECISIONMAKING WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE A SURROGATE
AVAILABLE, ET CETERA. IT'S A STATUTE THAT'S BEEN ON THE BOOKS FOR ABOUT A
DOZEN YEARS NOW.
MR. GOODELL: I -- I SAW THAT EXPRESSION ON YOUR
FACE WHEN I MADE REFERENCE TO THE CONSTITUTION BARRING INCORPORATION
BY REFERENCE. I'LL REFER YOU TO ARTICLE III, SECTION 16 WHICH SAYS NO ACT
SHALL BE PASSED WHICH SHALL PROVIDE THAT ANY EXISTING LAW OR REMAINING
PART THEREOF SHOULD BE MADE OR DEEMED A PART OF THE ACT EXCEPT BY
INSERTING IT INTO THE TEXT. AND THE TREATISES ON THAT, THE LEADING TREATISE
SAYS THE VERY REASON FOR THAT IS TO ENSURE THAT LEGISLATORS WHEN THEY
VOTE ON A BILL KNOW WHAT THEY'RE VOTING ON. FOR THE VERY REASONS THAT
YOU AND I HAVE EXPLORED HERE THAT IF IT'S AN INCORPORATION BY REFERENCE
AND IT'S NOT IN THE LANGUAGE AND YOU DON'T KNOW EXACTLY AND YOU'RE MY
EXPERT ON MY -- ON THE FLOOR, MR. GOTTFRIED -- I MEAN THAT IN AN
ABSOLUTE BEST WAY -- YOU CAN IMAGINE THE FACT THAT THE REST OF US
PROBABLY DON'T HAVE A FIRM GRASP ON THAT CROSS-REFERENCE.
BUT IF I MAY MOVE ON, LET'S SAY THAT A PATIENT DOES
HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE AND THAT REPRESENTATIVE FOR SOME REASON, FOR
WHATEVER REASON, DOESN'T GIVE CONSENT EVERY TWO WEEKS FOR A RENEWAL
38
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
OF THE DRUG. MAYBE THE REPRESENTATIVE IS ON VACATION OR MAYBE THEY
FORGET OR SOMETHING INTERFERES WITH IT. WHAT HAPPENS THEN?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I'M SORRY. SO YOU -- YOU'RE
SAYING THE -- THE PRESCRIPTION NEEDS TO BE -- OR THE ORDER NEEDS TO BE
RENEWED, THE PATIENT LACKS CAPACITY, THE REPRESENTATIVE IS UNAVAILABLE.
MR. GOODELL: YES, FOR SOME REASON.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YEAH. THAT'S WHERE YOU ARE
REFERRED TO THE FAMILY HEALTH CARE DECISIONS ACT, THE SECTION WE JUST
WERE DISCUSSING.
MR. GOODELL: SO THIS SAYS THAT A PRESCRIPTION IS
ONLY VALID FOR TWO WEEKS. IT REQUIRES A HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONAL TO SEEK
INFORMED CONSENT. I PRESUME THAT THAT REQUEST FOR INFORMED CONSENT
WOULD HAVE TO GO OUT IN ADVANCE SO THAT THEY GET IT BACK IN TIME. THE
INFORMED CONSENT FOR A REPRESENTATIVE HAS TO BE IN WRITING, CORRECT?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I'M SORRY. CAN YOU SAY THAT
AGAIN?
MR. GOODELL: THE INFORMED CONSENT TO CONTINUE
THE PRESCRIPTION HAS TO BE IN WRITING, RIGHT? I'M LOOKING AT PAGE 3, LINE
17 -- 18.
MR. GOTTFRIED: I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE BILL AGAIN
TO SEE IF THE CONSENT HAS TO BE IN WRITING. A LOT OF THE RECORDS OF THAT
CONSENT HAVE TO BE IN WRITING.
MR. GOODELL: WELL, IT'S ON PAGE 2, LINE 18. IT
SAYS YOU CANNOT RENEW THE PRESCRIPTION --
MR. GOTTFRIED: OKAY. RIGHT --
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. GOODELL: UNLESS A --
MR. GOTTFRIED: WRITTEN INFORMED CONSENT.
OKAY. YEAH, THE -- THE PATIENT OR THE REPRESENTATIVE WOULD HAVE TO
SIGN THE CONSENT, YES.
MR. GOODELL: AND SO PRESUMABLY THE PHYSICIAN
WOULD WAIT UNTIL DAY 13 OR 14 BEFORE TRIGGERING AN ALTERNATIVE
PROCEDURE. AT WHAT POINT DOES THE PHYSICIAN TRIGGER THE ALTERNATIVE
PROCEDURE?
MR. GOTTFRIED: AT WHAT POINT DOES THE PHYSICIAN
--
MR. GOODELL: TRIGGER THE ALTERNATIVE PROCEDURE
TO CONTINUE THE PRESCRIPTION IN THE ABSENCE OF A WRITTEN CONSENT.
MR. GOTTFRIED: IT WOULD BE A CASE-BY-CASE
DETERMINATION OF WHETHER THE -- WHETHER THE REPRESENTATIVE IS
UNAVAILABLE.
MR. GOODELL: NOW, YOU MENTIONED AN ISSUE, YOU
-- YOU SAID WHERE SOME PATIENTS ARE OVERPRESCRIBED PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS
IN ORDER TO MAKE THEM COMPLIANT. THERE'S A PHRASE YOU USED.
MR. GOTTFRIED: I -- I PROBABLY USED WORDS TO THAT
EFFECT, YES.
MR. GOODELL: ISN'T THERE A PROFESSIONAL
RESPONSIBILITY ON THE PART OF EVERY PHYSICIAN WHO PRESCRIBES THESE
MEDICATIONS TO ENSURE THAT THAT IS NOT THE CASE?
MR. GOTTFRIED: IN A MORE PERFECT WORLD, OF
COURSE.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. GOODELL: AND CAN'T ANY --
MR. GOTTFRIED: OH, BY THE WAY, IF -- AND I SAY IN
A MORE PERFECT WORLD. IF THAT'S HOW THE WORLD OPERATED, WE WOULDN'T
SEE ABOUT ONE IN FIVE NURSING HOME RESIDENTS BEING ON -- ON
ANTIPSYCHOTIC DRUGS WHEN IN THE GENERAL POPULATION THE RATE IS AT ABOUT
ONE-TENTH THAT. IF THIS WERE A MORE PERFECT WORLD -- YOU KNOW, A FEW
YEARS AGO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RELAXED THEIR REGULATIONS ON
ANTIPSYCHOTIC DRUGS BY SAYING THAT IF THE PATIENT HAD -- IS SCHIZOPHRENIC
THEN THE FEDERAL REGULATIONS DON'T APPLY. SOMEHOW IN THE -- IN THE FEW
YEARS AFTER THAT REGULATORY CHANGE, THERE WAS THIS WILD EPIDEMIC OF AN
INCREASE IN ABOUT 70 PERCENT OF THE NURSING HOME RESIDENTS WHO, BY
SOME ASTONISHING CIRCUMSTANCE, WERE SUDDENLY AFFLICTED WITH
SCHIZOPHRENIA, WHICH ORDINARILY IS A -- IS A CONDITION THAT IS CONTRACTED
IN EARLY YOUTH, NOT AT THE END OF LIFE. WHAT CLEARLY WAS GOING ON WAS
THAT WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAID YOU COULD DO ANTIPSYCHOTIC
DRUGS ON SOMEBODY WHO HAD BEEN DIAGNOSED SCHIZOPHRENIC WITHOUT
COMPLYING WITH THE FEDERAL REGS, ALL OF A SUDDEN NURSING HOMES
SOMEHOW FOUND LICENSED HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS WHO WERE PREPARED
TO LABEL THIS ENORMOUS EXPLOSION OF -- OF NURSING HOME RESIDENTS AS
BEING SCHIZOPHRENIC. SO, CAN WE ALWAYS RELY ON THE DOCTORS WHO ARE
PAID BY NURSING HOMES TO LIVE UP TO THE HIGHEST OF PROFESSIONAL
STANDARDS? IN A MORE PERFECT WORLD, YES. BUT ALAS, WE DON'T LIVE IN
THAT MORE PERFECT WORLD.
MR. GOODELL: I -- I APPRECIATE THOSE COMMENTS.
LET ME GO BACK. YOU AND I STARTED THIS DISCUSSION WITH THE
41
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THERE ARE SOME ANTIDEPRESSANTS IN PARTICULAR, ALSO
ANTIPSYCHOTICS AND ANTIANXIETY MEDICATIONS THAT ARE TYPICALLY
PRESCRIBED ON A LONG-TERM BASIS WHERE THE -- SOME OF THE MEDICAL
LITERATURE CERTAINLY SUGGESTS AN ABRUPT TERMINATION COULD CAUSE SEVERE
SIDE EFFECTS. FOR THOSE TYPES OF MEDICATIONS THAT ARE TYPICALLY
PRESCRIBED ON A LONG-TERM BASIS, DOES THIS LEGISLATION ALLOW A PATIENT OR
THE PATIENT'S REPRESENTATIVE TO CONSENT TO A LONGER-TERM PRESCRIPTION OR
MUST THEY RENEW IT EVERY 14 DAYS EVEN THOUGH IT MIGHT BE A LONG-TERM
PRESCRIPTION?
MR. GOTTFRIED: IN ORDER TO SAFEGUARD AGAINST THE
KIND OF ABUSE THAT WE SEE EVERY DAY IN OUR NURSING HOMES, THE BILL
INSISTS THAT THE PRESCRIPTION BE LIMITED TO 14 DAYS SUBJECT TO RENEWAL IN
ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT SOMEBODY IS PAYING ATTENTION AND IS
DOCUMENTING THE CONTINUED CONSENT. AND YEAH, WE DON'T WANT IT TO BE
EXCESSIVELY EASY TO PUT SOMEBODY ON -- ESSENTIALLY PERMANENTLY ON
CHEMICAL RESTRAINTS. WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE THAT EASY, AND WE
SHOULDN'T.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. GOTTFRIED. AS
ALWAYS, I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS AND INSIGHTS.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YOU'RE WELCOME.
MR. GOODELL: ON THE BILL, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.
GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: I APPRECIATE THE CONCERN THAT THE
SPONSOR HAS ON THE OVER-MEDICATION OF SOME PATIENTS. BUT I WOULD
42
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SUGGEST THE BEST WAY FOR THAT TO BE ADDRESSED IS THROUGH UTILIZING OUR
EXISTING PROVISIONS THAT REQUIRE PHYSICIANS TO HAVE A HIGH ETHICAL
STANDARD AND SUBJECT PHYSICIANS TO PROFESSIONAL DISCIPLINE IF THEY
VIOLATE THAT. AND ONE WAY YOU COULD STRENGTHEN THAT, IF YOU WANTED, IS
TO REQUIRE NOTICE TO THE PATIENT AND NOTICE TO THEIR CAREGIVER OR THEIR
DESIGNATED PERSON TO PROTECT THEM FROM THAT TYPE OF ABUSE. THIS
LEGISLATION, UNFORTUNATELY, GOES TOO FAR. IT REQUIRES THAT EVERY SINGLE
PRESCRIPTION BE RENEWED EVERY 14 DAYS. AND IT REQUIRES A PHYSICIAN TO
NOTIFY THE PATIENT OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVE AND GET A WRITTEN, A WRITTEN
AUTHORIZATION EVERY TWO WEEKS. AND IF THEY DON'T GET IT, AND
PRESUMABLY THE PHYSICIAN WILL BE WAITING RIGHT UP TO THE 13TH OR 14TH
DAY, THEN YOU EITHER TRIGGER AN ALTERNATIVE PROCEDURE WHICH IS GOING TO
BE TIME CONSUMING OR YOU WAIT FOR AN EMERGENCY. THIS IS PARTICULARLY
IMPRACTICAL IF THE PATIENT'S REPRESENTATIVE, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS A LIFE AND
MIGHT GO ON VACATION, THEY GO ON A CRUISE. THEY'RE VISITING CANCUN.
THEY'RE VISITING THEIR SICK IN-LAWS. AND THERE'S NO WAY FOR THEM TO GET
A WRITTEN AUTHORIZATION BACK TO THE PHYSICIAN EVERY TWO WEEKS.
THERE'S NO EXCEPTION IN THIS LEGISLATION FOR LONG-TERM MEDICATION. IT IS
WELL-KNOWN THAT SOME LONG-TERM MEDICATION HAS VERY, VERY SERIOUS
SIDE EFFECTS IF IT'S TERMINATED WITHOUT A GRADUAL REDUCTION.
SO I APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S FOCUS, BUT I THINK WE
ALSO WANT TO HAVE A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT PROTECTS PATIENTS FROM BEING --
LOSING THEIR LONG-TERM PRESCRIPTION AND IS WORKABLE FROM A
PHYSICIAN-PATIENT PERSPECTIVE AND, UNFORTUNATELY, I DON'T THINK THAT GETS
THERE WITH THIS LANGUAGE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
43
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MR. MONTESANO.
MR. MONTESANO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL
THE SPONSOR YIELD, PLEASE?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED, WILL
YOU YIELD?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED YIELDS.
MR. MONTESANO: THANK YOU, MR. GOTTFRIED. I'M
JUST TRYING TO SORT SOMETHING OUT BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF DIALOGUE
GOING ON. WHAT HAPPENS -- IF YOU COULD JUST TELL ME, I KNOW YOU MAY
HAVE MENTIONED IT ALREADY -- WHAT HAPPENS WHEN -- SO THE PATIENT IS
NOT ABLE TO CONSENT AND THEY HAVE A, YOU KNOW, A FAMILY MEMBER WHO
HAS THEIR HEALTH CARE PROXY OR WHATEVER WAS THEIR DESIGNATED AGENT AND
THEY'RE CONTACTED AND THE DOCTOR EXPLAINS TO THEM, YOU KNOW, WHY THE
PATIENT NEEDS THIS PRESCRIPTION OR TO RENEW THE PRESCRIPTION, AND THEY
OUTRIGHT DO NOT WANT TO GIVE THEIR CONSENT? THEY DON'T FEEL THE
MEDICATION IS NECESSARY, THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE THEIR FAMILY MEMBER
SUBJECTED TO THAT. COULD YOU JUST TELL ME WHAT THE PROCEDURE WOULD BE
FOR THE DOCTOR AND THE NURSING HOME AT THAT POINT?
MR. GOTTFRIED: IN AMERICA, IF THE PATIENT LACKS
CAPACITY TO CONSENT AND THERE IS ANOTHER PARTY, EITHER BY A -- BY THE
PATIENT HAVING SIGNED A PROXY OR BY OPERATION OF LAW, A FAMILY MEMBER
OR SOMEONE ELSE HAVING THE AUTHORITY TO CONSENT, IN AMERICA IF THERE IS
NO CONSENT TO A MEDICATION LIKE THIS OR TO ALMOST ANY OTHER MEDICATION,
44
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
IN THIS COUNTRY WE DO NOT ALLOW DOCTORS TO SAY, I KNOW BETTER THAN THE
PATIENT AND I KNOW BETTER THAN THE PERSON WHO IS AUTHORIZED TO CONSENT
FOR THE PATIENT. I'M GOING TO IMPOSE MY WILL ON THAT PATIENT WITHOUT
ANY EFFECTIVE LEGAL CONSENT. SO, YEAH. WE DON'T ALLOW THAT IN THIS
COUNTRY.
MR. MONTESANO: AND JUST A FOLLOW-UP QUESTION.
WHERE DID THE TWO-WEEK TIME FRAME COME FROM? YOU KNOW, THAT IT
SHOULD BE RENEWED ONLY EVERY TWO WEEKS. I MEAN, AS POINTED OUT BY
MR. GOODELL, YOU KNOW, SOME MEDICATIONS, YOU KNOW, NEED A LONG
PERIOD OF TIME TO TAKE EFFECT ON SOMEONE TO, YOU KNOW, TO SHOW A
RESULT OR A -- A -- A WITHDRAWAL FROM THAT MEDICATION UNEXPECTEDLY
COULD CAUSE AN ADVERSE PROBLEM. SO WHERE -- HOW DID YOU ARRIVE AT
THAT TWO-WEEK TIME FRAME?
MR. GOTTFRIED: IT SEEMED -- IT SEEMED LIKE A
REASONABLE PERIOD OF TIME. THAT TIME PERIOD AND SOME OF THE OTHER
CONCEPTS IN THE LEGISLATION WERE DEVELOPED IN CONSULTATION WITH
ADVOCATES FOR NURSING HOME RESIDENTS. THAT'S WHERE IT COMES FROM.
MR. MONTESANO: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. MONTESANO: THANK YOU. IN GENERAL, I LIKE
THE PIECE OF LEGISLATION. I THINK IT'S NECESSARY. IN THE LAST COUPLE OF
YEARS IN MY PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS AS AN ATTORNEY I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED
IN, YOU KNOW, GUARDIANSHIP MATTERS AND -- WHICH HAVE TAKEN ME INTO
NURSING HOMES ON QUITE A REGULAR ROUTINE. AND I -- AND I WOULD AGREE
45
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
WITH THE SPONSOR, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS WALK IN THE HALLS OR GO THROUGH
THE WALL -- THE WARDS AND YOU WOULD SEE PEOPLE THAT ARE, IN MY
OPINION, OVERLY-MEDICATED AND, YOU KNOW, SITTING IN WHEELCHAIRS OR
SITTING IN GERI CHAIRS AND, YOU KNOW, STARING INTO SPACE. YOU KNOW,
NOT RESPONSIVE AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. ON A PERSONAL NOTE, MY OWN
FATHER WAS IN AN ALZHEIMER'S WARD FOR THE LAST YEAR OF HIS LIFE AND HE
HAD, YOU KNOW, SOME BEHAVIORAL DIFFICULTIES AND THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY
THEY COULD SEE FIT TO DEAL WITH HIM AT THAT TIME. AND IT WAS, YOU KNOW,
KIND OF INTERESTING BECAUSE I SAID TO THEM, WELL, WHY DON'T YOU PUT AN
ALARM ON HIS BED OR AN ALARM ON HIS WHEELCHAIR? AND THEY SAID, WELL,
WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT BECAUSE THAT'S CONSIDERED TO BE A PHYSICAL
RESTRAINT, WHICH STILL TO THIS DAY I STILL CANNOT FIGURE THAT OUT BUT THAT'S
THE WAY IT WENT. BUT SO I KNOW THERE'S A NEED, YOU KNOW, MANY TIMES
FOR THEIR MEDICATION, AND UNFORTUNATELY IN MANY OF THESE PLACES IT'S
ABUSED. BECAUSE THIS IS THE WAY THEY COULD TAKE CARE OF 180 PATIENTS,
200 PATIENTS WITH VERY MINIMAL STAFF IF YOU JUST CAUSE THEM ALL TO BE
VERY QUIET AND SUBDUED DURING THE COURSE OF THE DAY.
SO WHILE I THINK THAT THE -- THE PIECE OF LEGISLATION
MIGHT NEED, YOU KNOW, ONE OR TWO ADJUSTMENTS TO IT, ESPECIALLY A TWO-
WEEK PERIOD. AND MAYBE SOMEWHERE DOWN THE LINE THE SPONSOR MAY
REVISIT THAT ISSUE WHEN HE SEES THIS HITTING THE ROAD AND WHAT THE RESULTS
ARE. I THINK IT'S A NECESSARY PIECE OF LEGISLATION. AND EVEN THOUGH IT
HAS A COUPLE OF BUMPS IN IT, I WILL SUPPORT IT AND -- AND VOTE IN THE
AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
46
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
READ THE LAST SECTION.
THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 180TH
DAY.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD
THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 5841-B. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY
MEMBER WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THE CONFERENCE
POSITION IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE
NUMBERS PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.
MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN
CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION AS DRAFTED. THOSE
WHO SUPPORT IT CERTAINLY CAN VOTE IN FAVOR OF IT AND ARE ENCOURAGED TO
VOTE IN FAVOR OF IT ON THE FLOOR OF THE ASSEMBLY OR BY CALLING THE
MINORITY LEADER'S OFFICE.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER. THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF
THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION. HOWEVER, SIR, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD
LIKE TO BE AN EXCEPTION. THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY
LEADER'S OFFICE AND WE'LL MAKE SURE THEIR VOTE IS PROPERLY RECORDED.
THANK YOU, SIR.
(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MA'AM.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. GOTTFRIED TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES, MR. SPEAKER. I'M CHECKING
MY NOTES. I HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE 14-DAY
REQUIREMENT IN THE BILL. WHILE THE BILL HAS HAD THE 14-DAY LIMIT IN IT
FOR -- FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW, IN 2018 THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL
ADOPTED A 14-DAY LIMIT IN THEIR REGULATIONS. SO WE HAVE THE CDC AS
ALSO GOING ALONG WITH THE 14-DAY NUMBER. THE REST OF THE BILL IS -- IS
SORELY NEEDED. AGAIN, WE'VE -- YOU KNOW, WHEN THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT MADE AN EXCEPTION FOR -- FROM THE REGS ABOUT
ANTIPSYCHOTIC DRUGS FOR PATIENTS WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA, SOMEHOW THE --
WE -- WE HAD AN EXPLOSION OF SCHIZOPHRENIA DIAGNOSES IN NURSING
HOMES. IN FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES FOR SOME REASON, 19 PERCENT OF THE
PATIENTS ARE ON PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS. IN NOT-FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES,
15 PERCENT. AND THAT'S NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE MENTAL
PROBLEMS IF YOU LIVE IN A FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME. IT'S BECAUSE
FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES ARE -- ARE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT-FOR-PROFITS TO
BE USING THESE DRUGS AS CHEMICAL RESTRAINTS. THE -- THE -- THESE ARE
DRUGS THAT HAVE SERIOUS MEDICAL CONSEQUENCES. PATIENTS ARE MORE
LIKELY TO HAVE STROKES AND OTHER DISEASES AND TO DIE EARLY WHEN THEY
ARE ON THESE DRUGS FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.
IF WE CARE ABOUT THE RESIDENTS OF OUR NURSING HOMES,
THIS LEGISLATION IS SORELY NEEDED. AND I AM PROUD TO SPONSOR IT AND
VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED IN THE
AFFIRMATIVE.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.
(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)
THE BILL IS PASSED.
PAGE 20, CALENDAR NO. 191, THE CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05842, CALENDAR NO.
191, GOTTFRIED, WEINSTEIN, STECK, BRONSON, SIMON, ABINANTI, COOK,
ANDERSON, EPSTEIN, OTIS, STIRPE, WOERNER, DINOWITZ, GLICK, VANEL,
LUNSFORD, CAHILL, L. ROSENTHAL, ZEBROWSKI, THIELE, WILLIAMS, BICHOTTE
HERMELYN, CARROLL, GALLAGHER, AUBRY, FORREST, NOLAN, CLARK, COLTON,
JACKSON, PEOPLES-STOKES, KELLES, HUNTER, JACOBSON, BURDICK,
MCDONALD, SEAWRIGHT, REYES, SANTABARBARA, MAMDANI, MITAYNES. AN
ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW, IN RELATION TO THE ESTABLISHMENT,
INCORPORATION, CONSTRUCTION OR INCREASE IN CAPACITY OF FOR-PROFIT
NURSING HOMES.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS
REQUESTED, MR. GOTTFRIED.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES, MR. SPEAKER. THIS BILL SAYS
THAT WE SHALL NOT LICENSE ANY FURTHER FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES IN NEW
YORK, AND THE NURSING HOME -- THE FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES THAT EXIST
SHALL BE LIMITED TO THEIR CURRENT CAPACITY AND NOT BE ALLOWED TO
INCREASE THEIR CAPACITY.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER. WILL THE
SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES.
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: THE SPONSOR
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
YIELDS.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE THE --
THE LARGE PREMISE OF THIS LEGISLATION IS THAT FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES
UNDERPERFORMED PUBLIC OR NON-PROFIT NURSING HOMES. CAN YOU SHARE
WITH US HOW MANY VIOLATIONS OR CLOSURES HAVE BEEN ENFORCED BY THE
NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH FOR THE FOR-PROFIT NURSING
HOMES COMPARED TO NON-PROFIT NURSING HOMES?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I DON'T HAVE THAT STATISTIC HANDY.
BUT I DO KNOW THAT THERE ARE A HOST OF STATISTICS, WHETHER IT'S ON STAFFING
LEVELS OR VARIOUS QUALITY MEASURES OR THE -- OR WHETHER THE -- THE
INCOME OF THE NURSING HOME STAYS IN THE NURSING HOME AND IS USED FOR
THE BENEFIT OF THE -- OF THE RESIDENTS. THERE'S A HOST OF -- OF DATA
SHOWING THAT NOT-FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES SCORE MUCH BETTER BY
VIRTUALLY EVERY QUALITY MEASURE THAN FOR-PROFIT ENTITIES.
MR. BYRNE: WELL, I THINK THERE'S A -- A RANGE WITH
-- WITH -- IN ANY SECTOR, WHETHER IT'S PUBIC, NON-PROFIT OR PROFIT --
FOR-PROFIT WHERE YOU'LL SEE UNDERPERFORMING AND OVERPERFORMING
FACILITIES THAT PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT. AND WE'VE PASSED LAWS AND THERE'S
REGULATIONS THAT I THINK WILL EVEN BE LOOKED AT EVEN MORE CLOSELY.
NOW, YOU MENTIONED RATINGS AND LOOKING AT THE
PERFORMANCE OF THESE FACILITIES. DOES YOUR LEGISLATIVE PROHIBITION
MAKE ANY CONSIDERATION FOR THE FACILITIES' PERFORMANCE?
MR. GOTTFRIED: ON AN INDIVIDUAL CASE-BY-CASE
BASIS, NO. BECAUSE CERTAINLY, WHEN YOU'RE LICENSING A NEW FACILITY YOU
DON'T KNOW HOW THAT FACILITY IS GOING TO PERFORM IN THE FUTURE. YOU
50
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
CAN ONLY GO ON -- ON WHAT OUR LIFE EXPERIENCE TELLS US. AND OUR LIFE
EXPERIENCE TELLS US THAT HEALTHCARE IS MUCH BETTER DELIVERED - AND THERE
IS DATA ON THIS NOT ONLY HERE IN NEW YORK BUT NATIONALLY - IS MUCH
BETTER DELIVERED BY PROVIDERS THAT ARE PUBLIC OR NOT-FOR-PROFIT THAN BY
FOR-PROFIT ENTITIES. AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT OF RESTRICTIONS IN
NEW YORK ON WHO CAN OWN HOSPITALS, NURSING HOMES AND THE LIKE. I
BELIEVE IN THE CASE OF NURSING HOMES THE CASE IS VERY CLEAR THAT IT IS
TIME FOR NEW YORK TO -- TO MOVE AWAY FROM FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES
HAVING THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CARE OF SOME OF OUR MOST VULNERABLE
NEW YORKERS.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. YOU
STARTED ANSWERING THAT QUESTION BY SAYING NEW FACILITIES, NEW
HEALTHCARE FACILITIES. BUT THIS BILL GOES BEYOND THAT. IT ALSO GOES TO --
FOR THOSE THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN EXISTING -- IN EXISTENCE THAT ARE FOR-PROFIT
NURSING FACILITIES THAT WANT TO INCREASE THEIR CAPACITY OR BUILD OUT. SO
AGAIN I WOULD ASK, FOR THOSE SPECIFIC FACILITIES, IS THERE ANY
CONSIDERATION FOR THEIR PERFORMANCE?
MR. GOTTFRIED: NOT -- NOT ON AN INDIVIDUAL CASE-
BY-CASE BASIS. WE'RE BASING IT ON ESSENTIALLY OUR EXPERIENCE OVERALL
WITH FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES. WE'RE NOT SHUTTING THEM DOWN, BUT WE'RE
SAYING THUS FAR AND NO FURTHER.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU. NOW, I THINK THAT'S A
CONCERN THAT I AND MANY OF OUR COLLEAGUES MAY HAVE. DOES ANY OTHER
STATE IN THE COUNTRY PROHIBIT THE EXPANSION OF PRIVATE NURSING HOME
FACILITIES -- OR FOR -- FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME FACILITIES? IT'S MY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
UNDERSTANDING THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY PROPOSAL. NO OTHER STATE DOES
THIS.
MR. GOTTFRIED: I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE. ACTUALLY,
NEW YORK, AS FAR AS I KNOW, IN SEVERAL ASPECTS OF OUR RESTRICTIONS ON
THE OWNERSHIP OF HOSPITALS AND NURSING HOMES AND COMMUNITY HEALTH
CENTERS AND THE LIKE, WE ARE MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN THE OTHER 49
STATES IN TERMS OF FOR-PROFIT AND CORPORATE OWNERSHIP AND I THINK WE
HAVE BEEN SERVED WELL BY THOSE RESTRICTIONS.
MR. BYRNE: TO -- TO THAT POINT, NEW YORK ALREADY
PROHIBITS PUBLICLY-TRADED NURSING HOMES; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. GOTTFRIED: THAT IS CORRECT.
MR. BYRNE: BUT THIS WOULD GO SIGNIFICANTLY FURTHER
BECAUSE IT WOULD PROHIBIT THOSE THAT ARE IN EXISTENCE THAT ARE NOT
PUBLICLY TRADED FROM EXPANDING OUT AND ADDING NEW BEDS FOR PERHAPS A
GROWING AGING POPULATION THAT NEEDS MORE SERVICES.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES, AND THAT -- AND THAT IS
BECAUSE ON THE WHOLE, BOTH THE DATA AND -- AND JUST LOGIC AND
KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE'S EXPERIENCES TELLS US THAT FOR -- WELL, TELLS ME
ANYWAY, AND I THINK TELLS A LOT OF US THAT FOR-PROFIT OWNERSHIP IS NOT A
SOUND BASIS FOR OWNING AND OPERATING A NURSING HOME AND THAT IT'S TIME
THAT WE STOP THE GROWTH OF THAT INDUSTRY AND -- AND HOPE FOR IT'S
DECLINE.
MR. BYRNE: WELL, I -- I THINK SOME OF US MAY --
MAY DISAGREE WITH YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. OBVIOUSLY, WE WANT
HIGH-PERFORMANCE, HIGH-QUALITY CARE, AND I THINK THERE'S A RANGE OF
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
PERFORMANCE IN -- IN ANY SECTOR OR IN ANY VOCATION WHERE YOU HAVE THE
BEST AND BRIGHTEST AND YOU HAVE THOSE WHO MAYBE JUST GOT BY. I THINK
THERE'S PLENTY OF EXAMPLES, AT LEAST ANECDOTALLY, IN THE PUBIC SECTOR AND
THE NON-PROFIT SECTOR WHERE NURSING HOME FACILITIES ARE STRUGGLING,
WHERE THEY'VE UNDERPERFORMED, WHERE THEY HAVE LOWER RATINGS. AND
THEN YOU HAVE THE ALL-STARS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, TOO. SO I THINK A
PROHIBITION IS A PRETTY STRONG CHANGE THAT MANY OF US MAY HAVE
CONCERNS ABOUT.
NOW, GOING FORWARD, I MENTIONED CAPACITY EARLIER IN
OUR BACK-AND-FORTH. THIS WOULD BE -- YOU KNOW, THE FOR-PROFIT SECTOR
IS ONE WAY TO INCREASE CAPACITY FOR OUR GROWING AGING POPULATION,
PEOPLE THAT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SERVICES FROM OUR NURSING HOMES.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE'S ENOUGH CAPACITY FOR OUR NURSING HOMES IN
THE STATE RIGHT NOW?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I THINK GENERALLY WE HAVE
ADEQUATE NURSING HOME POPULATION, NURSING HOME CAPACITY. THAT
CAPACITY WOULD BE EVEN MORE ADEQUATE IF -- IF AND WHEN WE PROPERLY
FUND AND SUPPORT HOME CARE BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE IN NURSING
HOMES WHO DON'T WANT TO BE THERE AND DON'T BELONG THERE BUT CAN'T GET
HOME CARE. AND IF WE NEED ADDITIONAL CAPACITY IT SHOULD, IN MY VIEW,
COME FROM THE NON-PROFIT AND PUBLIC SECTOR. WE SHOULD NOT BE
DEPENDENT ON PEOPLE WHO ARE -- WHO ARE RUNNING A NURSING HOME NOT
BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT THE RESIDENTS AND WANT TO SUPPORT THE
RESIDENTS, BUT ARE OWNING IT AND OPERATING IT SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE
MONEY.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. BYRNE: IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT THOSE THAT WORK
IN A FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME CARE MORE ABOUT MONEY THAN THE -- THE
PATIENTS THAT THEY'RE TASKED WITH CARING FOR? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT
STARTS TO SOUND LIKE. I UNDERSTAND THERE'S DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES IN WHAT
YOU THINK MIGHT BE THE BETTER MECHANISM TO TREAT THESE PATIENTS. BUT
THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING THAT JOB, THAT ARE IN THOSE NURSING HOMES -
AND SOME OF THEM I BELIEVE ARE MEMBERS OF ORGANIZED LABOR, TOO - YOU
KNOW, THAT -- THEY CARE ABOUT THEIR PATIENTS AND THAT THE PEOPLE THAT
THEY'RE CARING FOR. DO YOU --
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, I -- I THINK BY AND LARGE THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE ENGAGED IN PATIENT CARE IN FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES I
THINK BY AND LARGE CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THEIR -- THE RESIDENTS THEY CARE
FOR AS -- AS THE WORKERS IN ANY OTHER NURSING HOME. THE PROBLEM IS THE
TERMS AND CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH THEY WORK. THEY GENERALLY WORK IN
MORE UNDERSTAFFED FACILITIES, AND THEY WORK IN A FACILITY WHERE THE
OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT HAS A -- A PERSONAL FINANCIAL INTEREST IN
SKIMPING ON CARE. AND, YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE REALISTIC ABOUT HUMAN
BEINGS, WHEN YOU SET UP POWERFUL FINANCIAL INCENTIVES TO GOVERN
PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR, IF YOU'RE AT ALL REALISTIC YOU OUGHT TO ASSUME THAT
PEOPLE WILL RESPOND TO THOSE INCENTIVES. AND THAT IS, IN FACT, WHAT WE
SEE IN OUR NURSING HOMES. NURSING HOMES OWNERS WHO HAVE A -- A
DEEP PROFOUND VESTED INTEREST IN SPENDING AS LITTLE MONEY AS POSSIBLE
TAKING CARE OF THEIR RESIDENTS DO EXACTLY THAT.
MR. BYRNE: WELL, I WOULD SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE
-- THE OWNERS OF THESE FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES PROVIDE JOBS TO THOSE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
PEOPLE THAT CARE ABOUT THOSE PATIENTS AND HELP EXPAND ACCESS TO CARE
FOR THOSE THAT NEED IT. AND IN A POST-COVID WORLD WHERE MORE
PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT INFECTION CONTROL, THEY MAY WANT SINGLE
BEDS FOR NURSING CARE IN NURSING HOMES, WE -- WE DON'T WANT TO BE IN
ANY WAY LIMITING THE ABILITY TO GROW ACCESS TO CARE AND PROVIDE OPTIONS
TO FAMILIES THAT MAY NEED THE SERVICES FROM THESE NURSING FACILITIES.
AND -- AND I THINK IT'S --
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, I -- I WOULD SAY WELL, IF WE
NEED ADDITIONAL NURSING HOMES AND ADDITIONAL NURSING HOME BEDS, I
WOULD CERTAINLY WANT TO FILL THAT CAPACITY. I WOULD NOT WANT TO BUY
INTO THE NOTION THAT WE CAN PROVIDE EXPANDED CAPACITY BY EXPANDING
THE NUMBER OF SUB-QUALITY BEDS. I WOULD NOT WANT TO DO THAT TO NEW
YORK'S FRAIL ELDERLY.
MR. BYRNE: WELL, IT IS -- I THINK WE'RE -- FROM MY
SIDE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS TO -- TO HELP ADDRESS THE NEEDS THAT ARE
-- THAT ARE RIGHT NOW CURRENTLY PERHAPS UNMET. AND WITH A GROWING
AGING POPULATION AND MORE PEOPLE LEAVING NEW YORK I'D LIKE TO SEE
OUR SENIORS STAY RIGHT HERE IN NEW YORK. I DON'T WANT THEM TO LEAVE TO
ANOTHER STATE TO GET SERVICES ELSEWHERE. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
THEY'RE -- WE DO HAVE THE CAPACITY FOR PEOPLE TO STAY HERE SO THEIR
FAMILIES CAN VISIT THEM AND THEY CAN GET THE -- THE QUALITY CARE THAT
THEY -- THEY'VE COME ACCUSTOMED TO AND THAT THEY WANT AND THAT THEY
DESERVE. YOU'RE -- YOU'RE --
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW, WE
CERTAINLY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF TRUCK DRIVERS. IF NEW YORK WERE TO -- IF
55
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SOMEONE IN NEW YORK WERE TO SUGGEST THAT A GOOD WAY TO LET -- TO
INCREASE THE NUMBER OF TRUCK DRIVERS WOULD BE TO ALLOW SOMEONE WITH
LIMITED VISION LIKE MINE TO DRIVE A TRUCK WOULD BE A REALLY BAD IDEA.
AND IF THEY SAID, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE NEED MORE TRUCK DRIVERS. LET'S
LET EXTREMELY NEAR-SIGHTED PEOPLE DRIVE TRUCKS, THAT WOULD NOT BE A
GOOD IDEA.
MR. BYRNE: I -- I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU THAT WOULD
BE DANGEROUS. BUT THESE ARE NOT UNREGULATED FACILITIES. THESE ARE NOT
UNREGULATED IN THE LEAST. AND THEY'RE -- THEY'RE SCORED, THERE'S
PERFORMANCE MEASURES. WE PASSED A WHOLE SLEW OF BILLS. THE PUBLIC
HEALTH PLANNING COUNCIL I THINK HAS PUT FORTH REGULATIONS. THERE'S
SPENDING LIMITATIONS ON WHAT THEY CAN DO. THERE'S STAFFING RATIOS THAT
ARE NOW IMPOSED ON THEM. AND A LOT OF OUR NURSING HOMES ARE FEELING
THE SQUEEZE. SOME OF THEM -- THE NON-PROFITS INCLUDED -- I THINK ARE
OPERATING IN THE RED. AND THE REIMBURSEMENT FOR -- FROM THE STATE,
WHICH I BELIEVE YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, NOT JUST FOR HOME CARE BUT FOR
OUR NURSING HOMES, OUR ASSISTED LIVING FACILITIES, IT'S ALL VERY IMPORTANT
TO HELP SUPPORT AN AGING INFRASTRUCTURE FOR SOME OF THESE FACILITIES.
YOUR SPONSOR'S MEMO - AND I'M RUNNING LOW ON TIME - IT CITES THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT FROM LAST YEAR WHICH MAKES A COMPARISON
TOWARDS I BELIEVE THE PERFORMANCE IN OUR FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES. IS
THAT THE SAME REPORT THAT HIGHLIGHTS THE -- THE CUOMO ADMINISTRATION'S
UNDERREPORTING OF NURSING HOME RESIDENT DEATHS?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I DON'T KNOW.
MR. BYRNE: OKAY. I BELIEVE IT IS. AND I'M -- I'M
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
-- QUITE FRANKLY, I'M CERTAIN THAT IT IS. AND I KNOW -- I BRING THAT UP
BECAUSE I KNOW THE EMPIRE CENTER CRITICIZED WHILE THERE'S A LOT OF
THINGS IN THAT ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT THAT MANY OF THE MEMBERS IN
THIS CHAMBER LOOKED TO AND HAVE CITED. IT WAS KIND OF -- IT WAS
INTERESTING, AND THE EMPIRE CENTER FOUND THIS OUT LAST YEAR, THAT THE
AG REPORT ITSELF ACTUALLY RELIED AT LEAST PARTIALLY ON THE CUOMO
ADMINISTRATION'S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH'S REPORT WHICH OMITTED THE
RESIDENT DEATHS WHO DIED AFTER BEING TRANSFERRED TO HOSPITALS. SO IN --
IN ESSENCE, THE CONCLUSIONS THAT IT REACHED WERE UNDERMINED BY
INCOMPLETE DATA. AND THAT INCOMPLETE DATA HAS BEEN CONFIRMED
NUMEROUS TIMES NOW BY MOST RECENTLY THE STATE COMPTROLLER, THE NEW
YORK STATE BAR ASSOCIATION, AND I BELIEVE OUR OWN ASSEMBLY JUDICIARY
IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE ALSO CONFIRMED AN
UNDERREPORTING OF NURSING HOME DEATHS. SO THE AG'S REPORT THAT'S CITED
IN THE SPONSOR'S MEMO, IT'S USING INCOMPLETE INFORMATION TO COME TO
THOSE FINDINGS. SO I JUST THINK THAT IT'S -- YOU KNOW, WHILE I'M SURE IT'S
WELL-INTENTIONED, I WOULD JUST CALL THAT INTO QUESTION.
THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. (INAUDIBLE/CROSS-TALK)
MR. GOTTFRIED: (INAUDIBLE/CROSS-TALK) TO YIELD TO
-- TO QUESTIONS, I'LL TREAT THAT AS A QUESTION.
MR. BYRNE: GO AHEAD.
MR. GOTTFRIED: I DON'T -- I DON'T -- I DON'T AT ALL
FOLLOW WHAT YOUR -- THE LOGIC OF WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING. BUT YOU
STARTED BY ASKING I THINK WHETHER RULES AND REGS AND STATUTES WOULD BE
GOOD ENOUGH TO ENSURE THAT FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES PROVIDE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
HIGH-QUALITY CARE. RULES AND REGULATIONS CAN ACCOMPLISH QUITE A LOT,
BUT THEY CAN'T FULLY OVERCOME THE PRESSURES ON THE BEHAVIOR OF THE -- OF
THE PEOPLE RUNNING A NURSING HOME. THE PRESSURES FROM THEIR OWN
ECONOMIC INTERESTS. AND WHEN THE WHOLE POINT OF THEM OWNING THE
NURSING HOME IS TO MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE, IT'S REALLY
DIFFICULT AND UNREALISTIC IN TERMS OF HUMAN NATURE TO EXPECT THAT WE
CAN RELY ON RULES AND REGULATIONS TO SOMEHOW MAKE THEM DISREGARD THE
OVERWHELMING STRENGTH OF THEIR OWN FINANCIAL INCENTIVES WHICH TELL
THEM TO SKIMP ON CARE EVERYWHERE THEY CAN.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU.
MADAM SPEAKER, DO I GET A SECOND 15 MINUTES AFTER
THIS IF I CHOOSE? ONLY BECAUSE I'M RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
ACTING SPEAKER LUDSFORD: I UNDERSTAND.
WE'RE ASSESSING. THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE AHEAD OF YOU.
MR. BYRNE: AND THEN I CAN COME BACK? OKAY, I'LL
COME BACK FOR MY -- MY 15 MINUTES --
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: ONE (INAUDIBLE)
MR. BYRNE: -- TO SPEAK ON THE BILL. THANK YOU,
MADAM SPEAKER, AND THANK YOU TO THE SPONSOR.
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: MR. RA.
NO?
YOU WANT TO GIVE YOUR SECOND 15?
MR. RA? OKAY.
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: MR. BYRNE, YOU
CAN HAVE YOUR SECOND 15. THANK YOUR COLLEAGUES.
58
NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE
A MINUTE TO SPEAK ON THE BILL. I PROMISE I WON'T USE A FULL 15 MINUTES.
I WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR --
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: ARE YOU ON THE
BILL?
MR. BYRNE: ON THE BILL, YES.
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: OKAY. MR.
BYRNE ON THE BILL.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU. YOU KNOW, I THANK THE
SPONSOR FOR TAKING THE TIME TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. CERTAINLY, WE
WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR -- OUR NURSING HOMES OPERATORS, THE PEOPLE
THAT DO THIS IMPORTANT WORK CARING FOR OUR MOST VULNERABLE
POPULATIONS, ARE QUALIFIED. AND IN MY EXPERIENCE THESE PEOPLE GET INTO
THIS JOB, INTO THIS VOCATION AS A CALLING. THEY CARE DEEPLY ABOUT THE
PATIENTS. YES, THERE'S A BOTTOM LINE. THERE'S A BOTTOM LINE FOR OUR
STATE BUDGET, THERE'S A BOTTOM IN THE NON-PROFIT SECTOR. I USED TO WORK
FOR A LARGE NON-PROFIT. WE EACH HAVE A BUDGET THAT WE NEED TO COMPLY
WITH, AND FOR-PROFITS ARE NO DIFFERENT. BUT THEY'RE FULFILLING A NEED
RIGHT NOW TO TONS OF FAMILIES IN NEW YORK STATE AND PROVIDING
SERVICES. AND TO PUT A BLANKET PROHIBITION ON A SERVICE THAT'S BEING
PROVIDED, EXPANDING OUT, LIMITING THEM FROM ADDING NEW BEDS. IF
THERE'S A STRUGGLING NON-PROFIT NURSING HOME PREVENTING FOR-PROFITS
FROM HELPING COMING IN AND HELPING AND PROVIDING MORE ACCESS TO CARE
FOR PATIENTS, I THINK THAT'S A MISTAKE. I THINK IT'S A BAD POLICY. OTHER
STATES - AND I BELIEVE THE SPONSOR HAS EVEN ADDRESSED THIS - HAVE MORE
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FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES, AND I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT SOME PEOPLE THINK
THAT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO GO. BUT, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE IN HAVING OPTIONS
FOR PEOPLE. AND WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT FLATTENING THE CURVE DURING THE
COVID-19 PANDEMIC -- PANDEMIC, WE ALSO HEARD FROM THE -- THE
GOVERNOR AT THE TIME THE NEED TO INCREASE HOSPITAL CAPACITY, OR MANY
OF US MIGHT CALL "RAISING THE CEILING." SO YOU HAVE MORE OPTIONS FOR
PEOPLE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO BRING IN THE USNS COMFORT OR REFIT THE
JAVITS CENTER SO PEOPLE HAVE A PLACE TO GO. AND I BELIEVE THE
FOR-PROFIT SECTOR HAS A SPACE. THEY HAVE -- THEY HAVE A ROLE HERE.
OBVIOUSLY, SO DOES THE NON-PROFIT SECTOR, SO DOES THE PUBLIC SECTOR.
YOU HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF GREAT TALENTED PEOPLE IN EACH AND
EVERY ONE OF THOSE SECTORS THAT PROVIDE NURSING HOME SERVICES. I
WOULD SAY AGAIN, I MENTIONED IT EARLIER, THAT WE'VE ALREADY PASSED A LOT
OF LEGISLATION IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. SOME OF IT I VOTED FOR. SAFE
STAFFING RATIOS, SOME OF IT I OPPOSED. BUT WE HAVE SPENDING LIMITS NOW
ON HOW NURSING HOMES CAN SPEND THEIR MONEY. THERE'S MORE
RESTRICTIONS ON HOW THEY CAN DO THEIR JOB. WE'RE CONSTANTLY BEING TOLD
ABOUT SO MANY OF THESE NURSING HOMES, NOT-FOR-PROFITS INCLUDED, ARE IN
THE RED AND THEY ARE STRUGGLING. WHY WOULD WE WANT TO LIMIT THEIR
ABILITY TO EXPAND ACCESS FOR FAMILIES WHO MAY NEED MORE NURSING
HOME SERVICES OR THEIR ABILITIES TO BUILD OUT? REGARDLESS OF THEIR
PERFORMANCE. YOU CAN A HAVE FIVE-STAR, TOP-NOTCH FOR-PROFIT NURSING
HOME THAT PEOPLE LOVE AND THEY WANT TO ADD MORE BEDS AND THIS BILL
WOULD STOP IT.
LAST YEAR WE VOTED ON THIS LEGISLATION; 59 NO VOTES.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
I'M IN MY THIRD TERM HERE. IT TAKES A LOT FOR 59 PEOPLE IN A BODY WHERE
THE CONFERENCES ARE SPLIT PRETTY MUCH TWO-TO-ONE. FIFTY-NINE NO VOTES.
THAT MEANS A LOT OF MEMBERS OF THE MAJORITY VOTED NO ON THIS BILL. I
WANT YOU TO THINK ABOUT THAT. AS MY COLLEAGUES LOOK HOW THEY VOTED
BEFORE, I'M SURE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US HAVE A NURSING HOME IN OUR
DISTRICT OR AT LEAST NEARBY THAT SERVICES OUR FAMILIES. ASK YOURSELF IF --
IF ONE OF THEM IS A FOR-PROFIT, PERHAPS YOU HAVE CONSTITUENTS THAT WORK
IN ORGANIZED LABOR THAT WORK IN ONE OF THESE FACILITIES. I'M SURE THEY
CARE ABOUT THEIR PATIENTS, AND I'M GRATEFUL TO THE ADMINISTRATORS THAT
GAVE THEM THE JOB TO DO SO.
THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: THANK YOU, MR.
BYRNE.
MR. RA.
MR. RA: THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER. WILL THE
SPONSOR YIELD?
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: WILL THE SPONSOR
YIELD?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES.
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: THE SPONSOR
YIELDS.
MR. RA: THANK YOU. SO I JUST WANTED TO GO THROUGH
A COUPLE OF PIECES OF WHAT THE IMPLICATION WOULD BE FOR, YOU KNOW, AN
EXISTING FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME. BUT I -- I WANT TO START WITH
SOMETHING THAT REALLY WASN'T THE CASE AT THE TIME WE LAST DEBATED THIS
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
BILL LAST YEAR, AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THE VARIOUS NEW REQUIREMENTS THAT
WE HAVE PUT IN PLACE FOR THE LEGISLATION THROUGH THAT PACKAGE LAST YEAR.
ONE OF WHICH I BELIEVE IS A CAP ON PROFITS FOR A FOR-PROFIT NURSING
HOME, CORRECT?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES. ALTHOUGH PART OF THE
PROBLEM WITH FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES IS THAT THEY USE A VARIETY OF
GIMMICKS TO SIPHON MONEY TO AFFILIATED COMPANIES UNDER THE GUISE OF
EXPENSES. YOU KNOW, LIKE THEY MAY NOT ONLY OWN THE BUILDING BUT
RENT IT FROM ANOTHER COMPANY. IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE OWNED BY THE
BROTHER-IN-LAW OF THE OWNER OF THE NURSING HOME. AND THEN ALL THE
MONEY THEY PAY IN RENT TO THE BROTHER-IN-LAW DOESN'T COUNT AS PROFIT
EVEN THOUGH REALISTICALLY THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. SO OUR EFFORTS TO TRY
TO RESTRICT THE PROFIT OF NURSING HOMES IS -- IS VERY DIFFICULT TO RELY ON.
MR. RA: THAT -- THAT SEEMED LIKE A VERY SPECIFIC
EXAMPLE, WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW -- AND I DON'T
DOUBT THAT THESE THINGS HAPPEN. BUT -- BUT ONE OF THE POINTS MY
COLLEAGUE WAS MAKING AND I THINK MANY MAKE THAT ARE OPPOSED TO THIS
PIECE OF LEGISLATION IS KIND OF THAT PAINTING OF A BROAD BRUSH. WE'RE
SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN SOME PROBLEMS. HEY, MAYBE EVEN THE
MAJORITY OF FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES ARE BAD, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN EVERY
SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS BAD AND THAT WE NECESSARILY NEED TO GET RID OF
THEM. JUST LIKE THERE MAY BE NON-FOR-PROFITS THAT ARE -- THAT ARE NOT
GOOD. SO DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, THAT THAT CAP IS JUST -- IT -- IT WON'T GET
TO THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM? IT WON'T -- IT WON'T HELP MAYBE WEED OUT
SOME OF THE BEHAVIOR YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER THAT THEY'RE GOING
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
TO SKIMP ON -- ON MEETING THE NEEDS OF THE RESIDENTS TO MAXIMIZE
PROFITS?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I CERTAINLY HOPE IT WILL HELP.
WE'LL SEE. I CERTAINLY HOPE THE SAFE STAFFING LEGISLATION WILL HELP. BUT
WE'LL SEE. THE INGENUITY OF THESE FOLKS TO COME UP WITH WAYS TO SIPHON
MONEY OUT OF THEIR FACILITIES SEEMS NEVER-ENDING. AND -- AND THAT'S
WHY WHEN NOT-FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES ARE TELLING US THAT THEY -- THAT
THEY HAVE TO STRUGGLE TO MAKE ENDS MEET, SOMEHOW ON THE FOR-PROFIT
SIDE THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO GROW FROM A FEW YEARS AGO BEING ONLY A THIRD
OF THE NURSING HOMES IN THE STATE TO NOW BEING TWO-THIRDS. AND THE
REASON IS THAT THEY ARE -- THAT THEY USE THESE GIMMICKS TO SIPHON A LOT
OF MONEY OUT OF THE NURSING HOME. AND THE NOT-FOR-PROFITS DON'T DO
THAT. AND SO ALL THE RULES AND REGS WE ADOPT WILL HOPEFULLY HAVE A
BENEFICIAL EFFECT. BUT YOU REALLY CAN'T COUNT ON THEM TO FULLY
OVERCOME THE EFFECT OF THE PROFIT MOTIVE, WHICH IS WHAT BROUGHT THESE
PEOPLE INTO THE INDUSTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE PROFIT MOTIVE IS AN
ENORMOUSLY POWERFUL MOTIVE AMONG HUMANS, AND TO THINK THAT WE CAN
SOMEHOW OVERCOME THE POWER OF THAT MOTIVE -- OF THAT MOTIVE WHEN IT
COMES TO CARING FOR OUR FRAIL ELDERLY WHO SO OFTEN HAVE NOBODY
MINDING THE STORE ON THEIR BEHALF, I THINK IS -- IS VERY DANGEROUS. AND
I THINK ALL THE STATISTICS ABOUT THE LOWER QUALITY OF CARE IN FOR-PROFIT
FACILITIES BEARS THAT OUT.
MR. RA: SO UNDER CURRENT LAW, IF A FOR-PROFIT NURSING
HOME WERE TO MAKE AN APPLICATION FOR AN EXPANSION OR PERHAPS THAT
HAS, YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE FACILITIES TO BUILD AN ADDITIONAL FACILITY, DOES
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH CONSIDER THEIR CMS RATING?
MR. GOTTFRIED: THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO, AND THEY
MAY WELL. OF COURSE A LOT OF THOSE RATINGS ARE NOT THOROUGHLY RELIABLE.
THE -- THE QUALITY OF OUR INSPECTION TEAMS OR THEIR -- THE DILIGENCE THAT
-- THAT THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT EXPECTS OF THEM CAN BE LIMITED. WHICH
IS WHY I, AS I'VE SAID, I THINK RELYING ON RULES AND REGULATIONS --
(CROWDS CHANTING)
MR. RA: CAN WE PAUSE?
(PAUSE)
MR. GOTTFRIED: FOR THE RECORD, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL
THEY'RE -- MOST FOLKS ARE NEITHER FOR NOR AGAINST THE BILL.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROWDS CHANTING)
(PAUSE)
I -- I ASSUME THAT DOESN'T COUNT AGAINST MY TIME OR
YOURS.
(LAUGHTER)
MR. RA: I DON'T THINK SO. I WAS --
ACTING SPEAKER LUNSFORD: (INAUDIBLE)
MR. RA: I SAW SOME PEOPLE TAPPING ALONG TO THE
BEAT, THOUGH. SO, I -- I BELIEVE WE WERE DISCUSSING WHETHER -- OR TO
WHAT EXTENT CMS RATINGS WERE CONSIDERED, BUT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, FOR
AN APPLICATION FOR AN EXPANSION OR A NEW FACILITY. SO, I MEAN, REALLY
CONTINUING ON WITH THAT, SO LET'S ASSUME WE PASS THIS BILL, IT GETS PASSED
DOWN THE HALL, THE GOVERNOR SIGNS IT AND IT BECOMES LAW. WOULD ANY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
FOR-PROFIT FACILITY WHO CURRENTLY HAS AN APPLICATION PENDING, SAY, FOR AN
EXPANSION OR A NEW FACILITY, WOULD THAT BE ESSENTIALLY NULLIFIED BY -- BY
THIS BILL BECOMING LAW?
MR. GOTTFRIED: THAT -- THAT WOULD BE CUT OFF ON
THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE BILL, YES.
MR. RA: OKAY. I THINK THAT'S ALL I HAVE IN TERMS OF
QUESTIONS.
MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. RA: SO, JUST LIKE, YOU KNOW, MY PREVIOUS
COLLEAGUE HAD TALKED ABOUT, REALLY, I -- I THINK THE QUESTION HERE -- I
DON'T THINK ANYBODY'S DENYING THAT THERE ARE OPERATORS WHO DON'T DO THE
RIGHT THING, THAT THERE ARE OPERATORS WHO PUT PROFITS OVER THEIR -- YOU
KNOW, THE SAFETY AND HEALTH OF THEIR PATIENTS. BUT ANY TIME YOU LOOK AT
A SOLUTION TO A PROBLEM BEING LET'S PUNISH BOTH THE GOOD OPERATORS AND
THE BAD OPERATORS, YOU KNOW, THAT -- THAT SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM. SO
THERE ARE, I THINK, MANY GOOD FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES AND FACILITIES,
AND THEY ARE JUST REALLY EQUALLY IMPACTED BY THIS BILL AS -- AS ANY OF THE
BAD ACTORS. AND THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S MORE APPROPRIATE THAT WE LOOK
FOR OTHER WAYS TO GET AT THIS PROBLEM. CERTAINLY, AS I MENTIONED, WE --
WE HAVE ENACTED PIECES OF LEGISLATION WITHIN THE LAST YEAR. THAT PROFIT
CAP JUST WENT INTO EFFECT IN JANUARY, SO I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD
THINK WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE WE REALLY COULD SEE WHAT IMPACT THAT MAY
BE HAVING ON -- ON MAKING SURE FACILITIES ARE, YOU KNOW, PUTTING --
PUTTING MONEY INTO CARE. BUT -- BUT I ALSO THINK IF THERE ARE THINGS THAT
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH ISN'T DOING AS THEY GO THROUGH AN APPROVAL
PROCESS, WELL MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO LOOK AT. LOOK AT
MAKING SURE THAT THAT BAD OPERATOR IS NOT GOING TO GET AN APPROVAL FOR
AN EXPANSION OR FOR AN ADDITIONAL FACILITY RATHER THAN MAKING A
WHOLESALE LAW THAT -- THAT NO FOR-PROFIT OPERATOR IS ABLE TO DO THAT,
ESPECIALLY AT A TIME WHEN -- WHEN I THINK THAT THERE IS INCREASING NEED
COMING AND A NEED FOR FAMILIES TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT, FIND APPROPRIATE
FACILITIES FOR THEIR LOVED ONES, WHETHER THEY'RE FOR-PROFIT OR
NOT-FOR-PROFIT SO THAT THEY HAVE THAT PEACE OF MIND THAT THEIR LOVED ONE
IS BEING CARED FOR.
SO FOR THOSE REASONS I'M GOING BE VOTING IN THE
NEGATIVE. THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
MR. JENSEN.
MR. JENSEN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.
ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. JENSEN: SO, LISTENING TO -- TO MY TWO PRIOR
COLLEAGUES SPEAK ON THE BILL, CERTAINLY I HAVE MANY OF THE SAME
CONCERNS. MOST CHIEFLY IS THAT THIS LEGISLATION DOES NOT DIFFERENTIATE
BETWEEN GOOD ACTORS AND BAD ACTORS. OPERATORS THAT HAVE THE BEST
INTERESTS OF THEIR RESIDENTS AT HEART, AND THOSE WHO ARE ONLY OUT TO, AS
THE SPONSOR SAID, SKIM PROFITS OFF THE BACKS OF THEIR RESIDENTS. IT'S
PROBLEMATIC THAT THIS LEGISLATION HAS NO FINANCIAL LITMUS TEST ON
WHETHER OR NOT OPERATORS OF FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES ARE TRULY INVESTING BACK
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
INTO THEIR RESIDENTS AND INTO THEIR FACILITIES ON THE IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF
CARE AND CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS THAT THEY NEED TO SERVE THEIR RESIDENTS
IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE. THERE'S NO QUALITY LITMUS TEST. IT TREATS OUR
VERY BEST OPERATORS IN THE SAME REGARD AS THE VERY WORST. IN NEW YORK
STATE WE SHOULD BE HELPING AND WORKING AND APPLAUDING PEOPLE WHO
DO THE BEST JOB POSSIBLE. NOT TYING THEIR HANDS AND LIMITING THEIR
ABILITY TO CONTINUE TO DO GOOD WORK. CERTAINLY, I THINK EVERY MEMBER
OF THIS BODY WOULD AGREE THAT WE HAVE TO IN EVERY INDUSTRY ENSURE THAT
BAD ACTORS, BAD OPERATORS WHO ACTIVELY HARM PEOPLE CAN NO LONGER DO
SO. BUT TO PAINT EVERYBODY WITH A BROAD BRUSH DOES RAISE ISSUES,
ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO PROVIDE CARE TO EVERY REGION, EVERY
PORTION OF THIS STATE WHERE CARE IS NEEDED. CERTAINLY, THIS BILL WAS, I
WOULD ASSUME, WAS WRITTEN IN RESPONSE TO THE COVID-19 EPIDEMIC
AND ITS EFFECT ON NURSING HOMES. COVID DIDN'T JUST AFFECT RESIDENTS IN
FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES. IT AFFECTED RESIDENTS IN NOT-FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES AND
GOVERNMENT-OWNED FACILITIES AND PUBLIC FACILITIES ACROSS THE BOARD,
INDISCRIMINATELY. AND WHILE MANY NURSING HOMES, FOR-PROFIT,
NON-FOR-PROFIT, GOVERNMENT-OWNED AND OPERATED, ARE UNDER FINANCIAL
STRESS STILL BECAUSE OF COVID-19. THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD LIMIT
PEOPLE WHO HAVE CAPACITY, WHO HAVE CAPITAL FUNDS TO INVEST IN GREATER
EXPANSION OF CARE FROM DOING SO SEEMS HYPOCRITICAL WHEN WE WANT TO
MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING CARE IN THE MOST APPROPRIATE CARE
SETTING, WHETHER IT BE HOME CARE, ASSISTED LIVING FACILITIES OR IN
LONG-TERM CARE. ALL OF OUR NURSING HOMES ARE CURRENTLY SUFFERING FROM
STAFFING SHORTAGES. THERE'S TREMENDOUS BACKUPS IN OUR HOSPITALS,
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
TRYING TO GET RESIDENTS REFERRED BACK INTO NURSING HOMES. AND TO TIE
THE HANDS, TO LIMIT THE ABILITY OF GOOD ACTORS, GOOD OPERATORS, FROM
PROVIDING EXCEPTIONAL CARE SEEMS NONSENSICAL. AND CERTAINLY IN -- NOT
EVERY REGION OF OUR STATE HAS FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE, TEN NURSING
HOMES OF A VARIETY OF OWNERSHIP MODELS IN THAT COMMUNITY. IN MANY
RURAL PARTS OF OUR STATE THERE MAY BE ONLY ONE CARE PROVIDER WHO
PROVIDES LONG-TERM CARE WITHIN AN HOUR'S DISTANCE, AND THAT MAY BE A
FOR-PROFIT FACILITY. IF CARE NEEDS IN THOSE COMMUNITIES EXPAND, THIS
LEGISLATION WOULD PROHIBIT RURAL COMMUNITIES FROM GETTING LONG-TERM
CARE FOR THEIR AGING POPULATIONS THAT MAY BE MOST APPROPRIATE. THIS
LEGISLATION LIMITS THE ABILITY OF FOR-PROFIT OPERATORS IN LONG-TERM CARE TO
INVEST IN CAPACITY FOR SPECIALITY UNITS. WE MAY HAVE A GROWING AGING
POPULATION THAT MAY NEED RESPIRATORY CARE, MAY NEED GREATER ACCESS TO
REHAB FACILITIES. WE MAY NEED NOT FOR OUR AGING POPULATION, BUT FOR
OUR YOUTH POPULATION, PEDIATRIC NURSING CARE. THIS LEGISLATION WOULD
PROHIBIT GOOD OPERATORS THE CHANCE TO RESPOND TO COMMUNITY NEEDS,
RESPOND TO CARE NEEDS, RESPOND TO THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE TO PROVIDE
MOST APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF CARE WHEN THEY NEED IT, WHERE THEY NEED IT.
AND FOR THAT REASON, MR. SPEAKER, I AM OPPOSED.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.
MR. LAWLER.
MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE
SPONSOR YIELD?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED?
MR. GOTTFRIED: CERTAINLY.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. THE
EMPIRE CENTER'S REPORT THAT THEY RELEASED LAST MARCH GAVE A FULLER
ANALYSIS THAN DID THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT. HAVE YOU HAD ANY
OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THE EMPIRE CENTER'S REPORT?
MR. GOTTFRIED: SOME OF IT.
MR. LAWLER: AND DID YOU FIND THE SUM AND
SUBSTANCE OF THEIR REPORT TO BE CREDIBLE?
MR. GOTTFRIED: SOME OF IT. I'M NOT QUITE SURE
HOW THAT PERTAINS TO THIS TOPIC.
MR. LAWLER: WELL, I'LL -- I'LL ELABORATE THEN. I'M
GOING TO READ FROM THE REPORT, AND JUST WANT TO GO THROUGH SOME OF IT.
SO, IN REFERENCE TO ATTORNEY GENERAL JAMES' OFFICE REPORT THEY SAID, IN
PERFORMING ITS ANALYSIS, JAMES' OFFICE RELIED ON INCOMPLETE
INFORMATION. ITS AUTHORS DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO DATA ON NURSING HOME
RESIDENTS WHO DIED IN HOSPITALS, BECAUSE AS WE ALL KNOW, THOSE
NUMBERS WERE BEING WITHHELD BY THE CUOMO ADMINISTRATION. THE
REPORT ALSO LIMITED ITS EXAMINATION TO THE PERIOD BEFORE
MID-NOVEMBER. AS A RESULT, MORE THAN 6,000 DEATHS WERE OMITTED
FROM ITS ANALYSIS. WITH THE ADDITION OF MORE COMPLETE DATA MADE
POSSIBLE BY A FEBRUARY 3RD COURT RULING AND A LAWSUIT BROUGHT BY THE
EMPIRE CENTER, THE STATISTICAL PICTURE CHANGES SIGNIFICANTLY. IT GOES ON
TO SAY, FOR-PROFIT HOMES SHOWED HIGHER RATES OF COVID-19 MORTALITY
OVERALL, BUT THAT WAS LARGELY BECAUSE FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES ARE
CONCENTRATED IN PARTS OF THE STATE WHERE THE PANDEMIC WAS MOST
SEVERE. WITHIN THE DOWNSTATE AREA, THE MORTALITY RATE AMONG
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
FOR-PROFIT HOMES WAS SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN THE RATE AMONG NON- --
NOT-FOR-PROFIT HOMES. WITHIN THE UPSTATE AREA, THE FOR-PROFIT MORTALITY
RATE, 12.4 PERCENT, WAS HIGHER THAN THE GOVERNMENT-OWNED RATE, 4.8,
AND NOT-FOR-PROFIT RATE, 10.4. HOWEVER, UPSTATE FOR-PROFIT HOMES
ACCEPTED A DISPROPORTIONATE SHARE OF COVID-POSITIVE ADMISSIONS
UNDER THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT'S MARCH 25TH GUIDANCE WHICH MAY HAVE
CONTRIBUTED TO THAT DISPARITY. THE SEVEN STATE-OWNED NURSING
FACILITIES, MOST OF WHICH ARE DEDICATED TO VETERANS, HAD THE HIGHEST
COVID MORTALITY RATE OF ANY OWNERSHIP SUBCATEGORY. THEY GO ON TO
FOCUS IN ON THE CMS RATING SYSTEM. AND UNDER THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S
REPORT, FIVE-STAR FACILITIES HAD A DEATH RATE AS A PERCENTAGE OF
OCCUPANCY AT 4.9 PERCENT. ONE-STAR FACILITIES AT 7.1 PERCENT. WHEN ALL
OF THE DATA IS PUT IN, ONE-STAR FACILITIES HAD A 12.1 PERCENT COVID-19
DEATHS AS A PERCENTAGE OF OCCUPANCY. FIVE-STARS HAD 11.8. SO WHAT IT
SHOWS IS THAT THERE'S MUCH MORE OF AN EQUAL RATE ONCE ALL OF THE DATA IS
AVAILABLE. SO I GUESS MY -- MY QUESTION, REALLY, FOR YOU IS KNOWING
THAT THE AG'S REPORT WAS INCOMPLETE IN TERMS OF THE DATA THAT -- THAT
WAS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, AND THAT SINCE THAT TIME MORE DATA HAS BEEN
MADE AVAILABLE, WHY ARE WE ONLY FOCUSING ON FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES AND
NOT PUBLIC OR NON-PROFIT FACILITIES AS WELL? SHOULDN'T THE DETERMINATION
BE MADE ON THE QUALITY OF CARE AS OPPOSED TO THE TYPE OF OWNERSHIP?
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, IN
TERMS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT, ESSENTIALLY WHAT -- WHAT THE
EMPIRE CENTER IS SAYING IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT'S
HIDING OF INFORMATION, THINGS WERE ACTUALLY WORSE THAN THE ATTORNEY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
GENERAL WAS ABLE TO DOCUMENT. SO IT'S NOT LIKE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
WAS WHITEWASHING ANYTHING. SHE WAS DOING -- SHE PUT OUT THE BEST
REPORT THAT WAS POSSIBLE, GIVEN THE DATA THAT THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT LET
THE WORLD SEE. THINGS WERE ACTUALLY CONSIDERABLY WORSE. SECOND OF
ALL --
MR. LAWLER: I -- I WOULD JUST NOTE THAT THEY WERE
WORSE ALSO IN PUBLIC AND NOT-FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YEAH, WE'LL GET TO THAT. SO, WHAT
YOU'RE FOCUSING ON IS -- YOU KNOW, THERE ARE -- THERE ARE A HOST OF
METRICS BY WHICH YOU CAN JUDGE THE QUALITY OF CARE IN A CATEGORY OF
NURSING HOMES. IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT AMONG THAT HOST OF POSSIBLE
METRICS THERE WAS ONE SET OF METRICS ON WHICH THE FOR-PROFITS HAPPENED
TO DO A LITTLE BETTER THAN OTHERS. I DON'T THINK IT MAKES GOOD SENSE TO
BASE YOUR -- YOUR OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL ON THE FACT THAT OUT OF ALL THE
VARIOUS METRICS YOU COULD LOOK AT, YOU FOUND ONE THAT REFLECTS WELL ON
FOR-PROFITS.
MR. LAWLER: THAT -- THAT'S NOT THE BASIS FOR MY
OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL. MY BASIS FOR THE OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL IN LARGE
PART IS THE IDEA THAT WE ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO LEGISLATE BASED ON THE TYPE
OF OWNERSHIP CATEGORY AS OPPOSED TO THE QUALITY OF CARE THAT IS
RECEIVED IN A SPECIFIC FACILITY. AND BEYOND THAT --
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, THE QUALITY OF CARE BY THE
OVERWHELMING -- BY A LARGE VARIETY OF METRICS, THE QUALITY OF CARE
CORRELATES VERY POORLY -- OR CORRELATES STRONGLY WITH WHAT KIND OF
OWNERSHIP AND REFLECTS VERY POORLY OVERALL ON FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES. AND
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
WE DO OUR FRAIL ELDERLY A DISSERVICE IF WE IGNORE THAT OVERWHELMING
BODY OF EVIDENCE.
MR. LAWLER: WE -- WE DO OUR ELDERLY A DISSERVICE
IF OUR FOCUS IS ON THE TYPE OF OWNERSHIP AS OPPOSED TO THE QUALITY OF
CARE.
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL --
MR. LAWLER: (INAUDIBLE/CROSSTALK)
MR. GOTTFRIED: WHAT I JUST SAID -- WHAT I JUST
SAID, AND MAYBE YOU CAN TRY TO REFUTE IT --
MR. LAWLER: MR. SPEAKER?
MR. GOTTFRIED: BUT WHAT I JUST SAID IS THAT THE --
IS THAT THE QUALITY OF CARE IS HIGHLY CORRELATED WITH OWNERSHIP. AND
WHEN LIFE TEACHES YOU THAT A PARTICULAR KIND OF OWNERSHIP CORRELATES
HIGHLY WITH VERY POOR CARE, MAYBE YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE
KIND OF OWNERSHIP THAT YOU SUBJECT OUR ELDERLY TO.
MR. LAWLER: SO WE HAD SEVEN --
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WE WILL -- WE WILL
REMEMBER THAT YOU'VE ASKED HIM TO YIELD SO THAT YOU CAN ASK HIM
QUESTIONS AND THEN HE WILL RESPOND TO THE QUESTIONS. AND YOU WILL --
MR. LAWLER: I WAS TRYING --
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: YOU WILL BE ABLE TO
GO ON THE BILL AT WILL IN ORDER IT MAKE THE POINTS THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO
MAKE AS OPPOSED TO POSING THEM AS QUESTIONS.
MR. LAWLER: THE -- THERE ARE SEVEN STATE-OWNED
NURSING HOMES, ALL RIGHT, AND THEY HAD THE HIGHEST COVID MORTALITY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
RATE OF ANY OWNERSHIP SUBCATEGORY. SO WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT THAT?
THAT IS PUBLICLY-OWNED.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YEAH.
MR. LAWLER: DOES THAT NOT CONCERN YOU?
MR. GOTTFRIED: IT CERTAINLY CONCERNS ME, AND WE
PASSED A VARIETY OF MEASURES IN THIS HOUSE THAT -- MANY OF WHICH
BECAME LAW. THEY'RE AIMED AT STRENGTHENING OVERALL THE ENFORCEMENT
OF QUALITY STANDARDS IN OUR NURSING HOMES. THAT DOES NOT REALLY ARGUE
ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ON THIS BILL BECAUSE AS I SAID, THE FACT THAT THERE IS
ONE METRIC OUT OF ALL THE POSSIBLE METRICS THAT SEEMS TO REFLECT WELL ON
FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT IS
A KIND OF OWNERSHIP THAT WE SHOULD BE RELYING ON FOR TWO-THIRDS OF OUR
NURSING HOMES.
MR. LAWLER: OKAY. I HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION FOR
YOU. IS IT YOUR INTENT, ULTIMATELY, TO ELIMINATE ALL FOR-PROFIT NURSING
HOMES IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YEAH, THE BILL DOES NOT DO THAT.
THE BILL --
MR. LAWLER: NO, I UNDERSTAND. I WAS JUST ASKING
YOUR --
MR. GOTTFRIED: I -- I WOULD HOPE WE GET TO A
POINT WHERE FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES GRADUALLY CEASE TO EXIST.
MR. LAWLER: OKAY. THANK YOU.
ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
LAWLER.
MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU. THE IDEA THAT WE ARE
PROPOSING LEGISLATION PURELY, PURELY ON THE BASIS OF OWNERSHIP IS
INSANITY. WE'RE NOT FOCUSED ON THE QUALITY OF CARE. WE'RE NOT FOCUSED
ON WHETHER OR NOT THE FACILITY IS HIGHLY RATED BY CMS. AND WE'RE NOT
FOCUSED WHETHER OR NOT THE OWNERS AND THE FACILITY ARE ADHERING TO THE
LAW. AND IN FACT, WE MADE SOME CHANGES LAST YEAR THAT WOULD APPLY TO
FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES WITH RESPECT TO SPENDING 70 PERCENT OF THEIR
REVENUE ON DIRECT PATIENT CARE, 40 PERCENT ON STAFFING AND CAPPING THEIR
PROFIT AT 5 PERCENT. THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WE ARE SIMPLY SAYING,
REGARDLESS OF ALL OF THOSE FACTORS, IF YOU ARE A FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME
FACILITY, WE WILL NOT LET YOU BUILD MORE FACILITIES AND WE WILL NOT LET YOU
EXPAND YOUR EXISTING FACILITY. AND IN FACT, PER THE SPONSOR JUST ONE
MINUTE AGO, WE WANT YOU TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS IN THE STATE OF NEW
YORK. THIS IS NEW YORK STATE TODAY. THIS IS WHY RESIDENTS AND
BUSINESSES CONTINUE TO LEAVE THE STATE EN MASSE. LAST WEEK ONE OF MY
COLLEAGUES PROPOSED RAIN CHECK LEGISLATION AND I SAID IT WAS DEATH BY A
THOUSAND CUTS. THIS ISN'T DEATH BY A THOUSAND, THIS IS A DEATH BLOW.
AND AT SOME POINT, FOLKS IN THIS CHAMBER NEED TO WAKE UP. WE ARE
LETTING A RADICAL SOCIALIST IDEOLOGY TAKE HOLD IN THIS STATE AND IT IS
INSANE. THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO TELL BUSINESSES THEY CAN'T OPERATE
SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE FOR-PROFIT? THAT'S NUTS. WE HAVE OVER
750,000 BUSINESS REGULATIONS. WE PASS MORE REGULATIONS THAN ANY
OTHER STATE IN THE NATION. WE REGULATE THIS INDUSTRY, AND NOW WE JUST
WANT TO ELIMINATE IT OUTRIGHT. MY COLLEAGUE WANTS TO TOTALLY IGNORE THE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
FACT THAT PUBLIC NURSING HOMES UNDER THE STATE CONTROL HAD EQUAL OR
HIGHER DEATH RATES. MY COLLEAGUE TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THESE
FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES PROVIDE TERRIBLE SERVICE. WELL, GUESS WHAT?
IT WAS GOVERNMENT, NOT THE FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME BUSINESSES, IT WAS
GOVERNMENT THAT DIRECTED COVID-POSITIVE PATIENTS INTO THOSE NURSING
HOMES KILLING 15,000 SENIORS. SO WE TALK ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT
GOVERNMENT AND THE PUBLIC SECTOR IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE
ADEQUATE CARE? THE GOVERNMENT IS THE ONE THAT KILLED THESE PEOPLE.
LET'S GET REAL. THIS IS AN IDEOLOGY. THAT'S WHAT THIS IS. MY COLLEAGUE,
ON HIS WAY OUT, WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT HE DOES EVERYTHING HE CAN TO
DISMANTLE THE FOR-PROFIT PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY. HE WANTS TO
DISMANTLE EVERY FACET OF OUR HEALTHCARE SECTOR SO THAT HE CAN PASS HIS
ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL APPROACH TO HEALTHCARE. THIS IS PIECE BY PIECE, BRICK
BY BRICK TRYING TO TEAR DOWN AN INDUSTRY. IT IS NOT TO SAY THAT THERE
AREN'T ISSUES OR THAT THINGS SHOULDN'T BE FIXED. BUT THE IDEA THAT
GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE CARE? WE JUST
WENT THROUGH AN ENTIRE PANDEMIC WHERE GOVERNMENT MADE DECISIONS
THAT KILLED PEOPLE. AND NOW WE WANT TO SAY, NOPE, THEY'RE GOING TO BE
ABLE TO PROVIDE THE BEST LEVEL OF CARE. THE DATA AND THE STATISTICS ARE
NOW AVAILABLE FOR ALL TO SEE. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT WAS
INCOMPLETE. I'M NOT SUGGESTING SHE WAS WHITEWASHING IT, SHE COULDN'T
GET THE DATA BECAUSE THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK REFUSED TO
GIVE IT. HER REPORT PAINTED A PICTURE THAT ONLY FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES WERE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE DEATHS. WHEN YOU GET THE FULL DATA, THAT'S NOT THE
CASE. BUT THIS LEGISLATION SEEKS TO ELIMINATE ANY FOR-PROFIT FACILITY OVER
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
TIME BY NOT ALLOWING NEW ONES, BY NOT ALLOWING EXISTING ONES TO GROW.
AND MY COLLEAGUE ALL BUT ADMITTED HE WANTS TO ELIMINATE THEM
COMPLETELY. NOW, 59 OF US SEEM TO BE FREE MARKET CAPITALISTS. I DON'T
KNOW WHERE THE HECK THE OTHER 91 ARE. BUT IT MIGHT BE TIME TO STAND
UP AND KILL A PIECE OF LEGISLATION BEFORE WE KILL AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY IN
THE STATE OF NEW YORK. IT MIGHT BE TIME JUST ONCE FOR ALL OF MY
COLLEAGUES TO STOP VOTING PARTY LINES, STOP VOTING FOR YOUR LEGISLATIVE
LEADERS AND VOTE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED YOU HERE. PUSH BACK
AGAINST THE INSANITY JUST ONCE. THE REASON WE LIVE IN THE GREATEST
COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AND THE REASON SO MANY PEOPLE LEAVE THEIR
COUNTRIES, SOCIALIST COUNTRIES, MY WIFE BEING ONE OF THEM. SHE LEFT
MOLDOVA, A SOVIET-OCCUPIED COUNTRY. THE REASON SHE LEFT WAS TO COME
HERE IN SEARCH OF THE AMERICAN DREAM AND FREE ENTERPRISE AND
CAPITALISM. LET'S NOT KILL IT WITH THIS STUPID BILL. VOTE NO.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR.
ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. GOODELL: THE PREMISE UNDER THIS BILL IS THAT
HAVING A PROFIT MOTIVE IS SOMEHOW BAD. BUT WE LIVE IN THE UNITED
STATES, A CAPITALIST COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE SEEN THE BENEFITS OF
CAPITALISM DRIVEN BY A PROFIT MOTIVE. NONE OF US WOULD HAVE ONE OF
THESE IPHONES WITHOUT THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS DRIVEN BY THE PROFIT
MOTIVE. NOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT BILL GATES MADE A LOT OF MONEY
DEVELOPING MICROSOFT. IF HE DIDN'T, WE WOULDN'T HAVE THAT LEVEL OF
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
TECHNOLOGY. TECHNOLOGY IS DRIVEN BY THE PROFIT MOTIVE. THE PROFIT
MOTIVE ENCOURAGES ORGANIZATIONS TO PROVIDE THE BEST PRODUCT AT THE
LOWEST PRICE. THE PROFIT MOTIVE BRINGS US CONSTANT INNOVATION AND
CONSTANT IMPROVEMENTS. BUT LET ME SPEAK FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AS
IT RELATES TO NURSING HOMES.
IN THE 1990S I WAS THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE IN
CHAUTAUQUA COUNTY AND WE HAD A COUNTY-OWNED NURSING HOME. AND
WE HAD GREAT ADMINISTRATORS AND I MET WITH THEM AND I SAID, LOOK, I
DON'T -- I DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT THAT COUNTY TAXPAYERS PAY HIGHER
PROPERTY TAXES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTY TO SUBSIDIZE THE CARE FOR A SMALL
GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTY NURSING HOME. I DON'T SUPPORT THAT
CONCEPT. SO I WANT YOU TO OPERATE THIS NURSING HOME IN A FINANCIALLY
RESPONSIBLE MANNER. AND THE NURSING HOME ADMINISTRATOR CAME BACK
TO ME AND SAID, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, MEDICAID AND MEDICARE DO
NOT PAY US ENOUGH TO COVER OUR OUT-OF-POCKET EXPENSES. THEY SIMPLY
DON'T PAY ENOUGH TO COVER OUR OUT-OF-POCKET EXPENSES. SO THE ONLY
WAY WE CAN OPERATE IN A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE MANNER IS IF WE HAVE
PRIVATE-PAY PATIENTS. AND IF WE'RE COMPETING FOR PRIVATE-PAY PATIENTS,
THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET THOSE PRIVATE-PAY PATIENTS WHO CAN GO
ANYWHERE THEY WANT, AND THEY'RE IN HIGH DEMAND, IS IF WE PROVIDE A
HIGHER QUALITY OF SERVICE. AND SO HE SAID, WE NEED TO UPGRADE THE
COUNTY HOME. WE NEED TO INSTALL AIR CONDITIONING. WE NEED
SEMI-PRIVATE ROOMS. THEY ALREADY HAD SOME OF THE NICEST FOOD. AND
SO THE ONLY WAY WE OPERATED IN A FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE MANNER IS WE
FOCUSED ON FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY. WE DRAMATICALLY INCREASED THE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
QUALITY OF OUR NURSING FACILITY SO THAT WE COULD COMPETE. AND IT'S THAT
COMPETITION THAT DRIVES QUALITY. SO WHEN WE SAY THERE'S SOMETHING
WRONG WITH OPERATING IN A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE MANNER, THERE'S
SOMETHING WRONG WITH SEEKING PROFIT, WE IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE PROFIT
MOTIVE IN THE UNITED STATES DRIVES LOWER COSTS AND HIGHER QUALITY.
THAT'S WHY YOU AND I ARE DRIVING HIGH-QUALITY CARS. THAT'S WHY WE
HAVE CELL PHONES. THAT'S WHY WE COMPETE ALL THE TIME ON PRICE AND
QUALITY. WE'RE CALLING IT THE 5G. EVERY ADVERTISEMENT YOU HEAR TALKS
ABOUT QUALITY AND PRICE. AND IT APPLIES IN THE NURSING HOME FIELD AS
WELL. EVERY PRIVATE-PAY PATIENT WHOSE PRESENCE IN A NURSING HOME IS
ESSENTIAL TO THAT NURSING HOME'S VERY SURVIVAL, THOSE PRIVATE-PAY
PATIENTS GO TO THE NURSING HOMES THAT GIVE THEM THE BEST QUALITY AT THE
BEST PRICE. AND THAT INCLUDES EVERY PRIVATE-PAY PATIENT AT A PRIVATE
FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME. AND THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THEY COMPETE, BY
ADVERTISING THAT THEY HAVE THE BEST QUALITY AT THE BEST PRICE. WE SHOULD
NOT TURN OUR BACK ON HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF PROVEN EXPERIENCE AND
ELIMINATE THE PROFIT MOTIVE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE PRICE OF QUALITY THAT
THOSE FACILITIES ARE PROVIDING.
FOR THAT REASON I WOULD RECOMMEND MY COLLEAGUES TO
VOTE AGAINST THIS. THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MR. WALCZYK.
MR. WALCZYK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD
THE SPONSOR YIELD?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED, WILL
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
YOU YIELD?
MR. GOTTFRIED: YES.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED YIELDS,
SIR.
MR. WALCZYK: WHICH -- WHICH -- WHICH BUDGET
BILL ARE WE ON?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I'LL LET YOU ANSWER THAT.
MR. WALCZYK: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL I
HAVE, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MANKTELOW.
MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED, WILL
YOU YIELD?
MR. GOTTFRIED: SURE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOTTFRIED YIELDS.
MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, SPONSOR.
QUESTION. WHEN WE PUT OUR PRIVATE NURSING HOMES OUT OF BUSINESS AS
WE CONTINUE THIS ONSLAUGHT TO GET RID OF PRIVATE NURSING HOMES, WHAT'S
THE STATE'S PLAN FOR ALL THOSE EMPTY BUILDINGS?
MR. GOTTFRIED: COULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN? I --
YOU WERE A LITTLE BIT GARBLED. SORRY.
MR. MANKTELOW: AS WE CONTINUE TO PUT PRIVATE
NURSING HOMES OUT OF BUSINESS IN THIS STATE BY NOT ALLOWING THEM TO
GROW, WHEN THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO OWN THESE FACILITIES WALK AWAY
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
FROM THEM, WHAT IS THE STATE'S PLAN FOR ALL OF THESE EMPTY BUILDINGS?
MR. GOTTFRIED: WHAT IS THE STATE'S --
MR. MANKTELOW: PLAN, IDEA. WHAT IS NEW YORK
STATE GOING TO DO WITH ALL THESE EMPTY BUILDINGS?
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T SEE WHY
ANY FOR-PROFIT OWNER WOULD WALK AWAY FROM THEIR EXISTING FACILITY.
BUT WHAT WE WOULD NEED TO DO AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING -- IT'S NOT
LIKE WE'RE GOING TO BE PRESSURED INTO DOING SOMETHING THAT WE
SHOULDN'T DO -- WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IS MAKING SURE THAT BETWEEN
MEDICAID PAYMENT LEVELS AND -- AND RAMPING UP THE QUALITY OF OUR
ENFORCEMENT MECHANISMS, WE WILL BE HELPING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE --
THE NON-PROFIT NURSING HOMES DO THE JOB THAT WE EXPECT OF THEM. AS
THEY -- YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T ALWAYS HAVE TWO-THIRDS OF OUR NURSING
HOMES BEING FOR-PROFIT. UNTIL A FEW YEARS AGO IT WAS ONLY ONE-THIRD.
WE -- WE FELL DOWN ON THE JOB OF HELPING TO SUPPORT OUR NOT-FOR-PROFITS
AND WE SHOULD NOT BE MAKING THAT MISTAKE.
MR. MANKTELOW: SHOULD -- SHOULD WE NOT GIVE
THE FOR-PROFITS THAT SAME RESPECT BY HELPING THEM BE MORE PRODUCTIVE
TO DEAL WITH WHAT THEY'RE DEALING WITH INSTEAD OF TYING ONE HAND
BEHIND THEIR BACK?
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, THE PROBLEM IS THAT
FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES HAVE A STRONG INCENTIVE AND A STRONG RECORD, A
STRONG RECORD OF SIPHONING MONEY AWAY FROM PATIENT SERVICES AND
SIPHONING THAT MONEY THROUGH A VARIETY OF REAL ESTATE AND OTHER
GIMMICKS INTO THE POCKETS OF THE OWNERS, AS I EXPLAINED EARLIER. YOU
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KNOW, ON PAPER IT MAY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE MAKING ONE LEVEL OF PROFIT, BUT
IF YOU FOLLOW THE MONEY AND SEE WHO OWNS THE VARIOUS COMPANIES THAT
THEY RENT THE BUILDING FROM AND THAT THEY OSTENSIBLY PAY TO PROVIDE
SERVICES, ET CETERA, THEY ARE PUTTING MONEY INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS
INSTEAD OF INTO CARE. AND I DON'T BLAME THEM FOR THAT, IT'S HUMAN
NATURE. YOU KNOW, WE CAN RELY ON THE PROFIT MOTIVE IN A LOT OF
CIRCUMSTANCES. WE RELY ON THE PROFIT MOTIVE SUCCESSFULLY IN ALMOST
EVERY AREA OF OUR ECONOMY, AS MR. GOODELL SO RIGHTLY POINTED OUT. BUT
WHEN IT COMES TO NURSING HOMES, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT VERY EASY TO SAY
WELL, I'LL TRY NURSING HOME NUMBER ONE AND IF THEY DON'T -- IF I DON'T
LIKE IT NEXT WEEK I'LL -- I'LL MOVE TO NURSING HOME NUMBER TWO. THAT'S
NOT VERY PRACTICAL. OUR NURSING HOMES ARE FILLED WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE
VERY FRAIL, WHO ARE VERY DEPENDENT ON, AS THE SAYING GOES, THE KINDNESS
OF OTHERS. AND WHO UNFORTUNATELY IN OUR SOCIETY A GREAT MANY OF THEM
ARE REALLY IGNORED BY WHATEVER FAMILY THEY MAY HAVE ON THE OUTSIDE.
AND TO HAVE FRAIL PEOPLE WITH NO ONE ON THE OUTSIDE MONITORING THE
QUALITY OF THEIR CARE AND GOVERNMENT DOING A FAIRLY POOR JOB WITH
MONITORING THE QUALITY OF THEIR CARE, TO HAVE THOSE -- THOSE FOLKS CARED
FOR BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE A POWERFUL FINANCIAL INTEREST IN SPENDING AS
LITTLE AS POSSIBLE ON THEIR CARE IS A VERY DANGEROUS MIX IF YOU CARE
ABOUT THOSE RESIDENTS.
MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. I -- I AGREE. WELL, ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT -- AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE DONE
THE MATH ON THIS -- BUT WE TALKED ABOUT THIS LAST YEAR I THINK WHEN WE
DEBATED THIS BILL. WHEN WE CONTINUE TO KNOCK OUT THE FOR-PROFIT
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FACILITIES, WHO WILL MAKE UP THAT DIFFERENTIAL IN TAXES?
MR. GOTTFRIED: PRIMARILY NOT-FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES.
MR. MANKTELOW: NOT-FOR-PROFITS BEING COUNTY
AND STATE -- OR COUNTY, TOWN AND MUNICIPAL -- MUNICIPALITY TAXES?
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, CERTAINLY LOCAL
GOVERNMENTS COULD CREATE PUBLICLY-OWNED NURSING HOMES. I'D BE
SURPRISED IF THAT HAPPENS. OUR NURSING HOMES HAVE, UNTIL THE LAST FEW
YEARS, WERE OVERWHELMINGLY NOT-FOR-PROFIT ENTITIES AND I WOULD EXPECT
THAT THAT'S WHAT WOULD -- WHAT WOULD RETURN.
MR. MANKTELOW: SO -- SO YOUR -- YOUR DRIVE AND
YOUR DIRECTION IS TO COMPLETELY GET RID OF FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES AND
FILL THE GAP WITH GOVERNMENT-SUBSIDIZED NURSING HOMES?
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY SUBSIDIZED,
OUR FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES ARE HEAVILY SUBSIDIZED BY THE TAXPAYERS.
HEAVILY SUBSIDIZED. THE MONEY JUST DOESN'T GO INTO PATIENT CARE AS
MUCH AS IT SHOULD. SO, YEAH, WE NEED TO SUBSIDIZE OUR NURSING HOMES,
WHICH IS WHY WE'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR DECADES AND WHY WE -- WE
NEED TO DO SO. I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH THAT.
MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. NEXT QUESTION. A FEW
YEARS AGO I HAD THE CHANCE TO GO TO NEW YORK CITY. I HAD TO LOOK AT
SOME OF THE NYCHA HOUSING UNITS, THE NEW YORK CITY HOUSING
AUTHORITY. YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THEM?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I'M SORRY, COULD -- I'M HAVING A
HARD TIME MAKING OUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S
YOUR MICROPHONE OR WHAT. COULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN?
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. MANKTELOW: SURE. I'M SORRY. I'LL SPEAK A
LITTLE LOUDER. A FEW YEARS AGO I WAS IN NEW YORK CITY. I HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO GO INTO ONE OF THE HIGH-RISES THAT WAS OWNED BY
NYCHA, THE NEW YORK CITY HOUSING AUTHORITY, WHICH IS RUN BY
GOVERNMENT. AND ACROSS THE STREET WAS A PRIVATE FACILITY. NIGHT AND
DAY. THE FAMILIES THAT LIVED IN THE GOVERNMENT-RUN HOUSING, BUSTED
WINDOWS, WATER DRIPPING FROM THEIR CEILING, MOLD IN THE WALLS. THE
FACILITIES WERE NOT TAKEN CARE OF. THEY REMIND ME OF PLACE IN
CZECHOSLOVAKIA. SO HERE AGAIN IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE WHY GOVERNMENT
ISN'T ALWAYS THE FIX. AND WE NEED TO WORK THIS TOGETHER. WE NEED TO
MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE THAT HAVE GOOD QUALITY NURSING HOMES,
FOR-PROFIT. NOT EVERY FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME DOES EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE
SAYING IS HAPPENING. YOU NEED TO GO AROUND THE STATE AND LOOK AT ALL
OF THEM. I'D BE GLAD TO TAKE YOU TO SOME IN MY DISTRICT. JUST LIKE MY
COLLEAGUE HAD SAID EARLIER, WE, TOO, HAD A COUNTY-RUN NURSING HOME IN
MY COUNTY. I WAS PART OF THAT COMMITTEE THAT OVERSAW THAT NURSING
HOME. IT WAS ALWAYS LOSING MONEY. DO YOU KNOW HOW WE GOT IT TO
MAKE MONEY? WE WENT OUT TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND HIRED A DIRECTOR
FROM A PRIVATE NURSING HOME AND BROUGHT THEM INTO THAT NURSING HOME.
AND GUESS WHAT? THAT NURSING HOME IS NOW MAKING MONEY. AND HE
SINCE MOVED ON TO ANOTHER POSITION BECAUSE HE'S VERY GOOD AT IT. THE
PRIVATE INDUSTRY, THE PRIVATE NURSING HOMES, ARE ALSO VERY GOOD AT WHAT
THEY DO. JUST ERADICATING THEM IN NEW YORK IS NOT THE ANSWER. WE
HAVE A HOUSING EPIDEMIC. WE HAVE A STAFF SHORTAGE EPIDEMIC. WE
HAVE SO MANY SHORTAGES OF INDIVIDUALS. HOSPITALS, NURSING HOMES,
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
HOME CARE. WHERE -- WHERE ARE WE GOING TO COME UP WITH EVERYTHING
AND EVERYBODY TO TAKE CARE OF THIS?
SO I GUESS MY LAST QUESTION IS --
MR. GOTTFRIED: WELL, IF -- IF THAT WAS A QUESTION.
MR. MANKTELOW: I'M SORRY.
MR. GOTTFRIED: -- I WOULD SAY THE FACT THAT YOUR
COUNTY NURSING HOME WAS ABLE TO FIND SOMEONE WHO HAD PREVIOUSLY
WORKED IN A FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME WHO WAS A TALENTED ADMINISTRATOR,
THAT'S TERRIFIC. BUT THAT TELLS US NOTHING ABOUT WHETHER AS A MATTER OF
POLICY WE CAN RELY ON FOR-PROFIT OWNERS TO CARE FOR OUR FRAIL ELDERLY.
MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY.
MR. GOTTFRIED: AND -- AND THE INCENTIVES, THE
MECHANICS, THE -- THE ECONOMICS, ET CETERA, OF PRIVATE HOUSING ARE
PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT FROM ALL OF THE FACTORS THAT WOULD GOVERN A
FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME. IT'S -- THEY -- THEY ARE SO DIFFERENT THAT THEY
HAVE ALMOST NOTHING IN COMMON.
MR. MANKTELOW: ALL RIGHT. SO -- SO MY LAST
QUESTION IS, MY COLLEAGUE HAD SAID EARLIER. HE ASKED YOU A QUESTION
ABOUT THE BUDGET, WHAT BUDGET BILL WE WERE ON, I BELIEVE. SO -- SO I
KNOW ONE OF THE HOLD UPS IN OUR BUDGET, WE'RE HEARING IT EVERY PLACE, IT
GOES BACK TO OUR GOVERNOR'S HOME AREA. THERE'S TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH
MONEY ARE WE GOING TO GIVE THE BUFFALO BILLS STADIUM. SO IS THE NEXT
THING ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK HERE IN THIS BUILDING, ON THESE FLOORS, ARE
WE NOW GOING TO TAKE AWAY PRIVATE OWNERSHIPS OF OUR NFL STADIUMS?
BECAUSE THAT IS FOR-PROFIT. THOSE -- THOSE OWNERS THAT OWN THOSE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
STADIUMS, THAT OWN THOSE -- THAT HIRE THE FOOTBALL PLAYERS, THAT DO
EVERYTHING, NOW WE'RE GOING TO SUBSIDIZE THEM AT THE TAXPAYERS'
EXPENSE, BUT YET THEY'RE ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING THEY WANT WITH THE
MONEY THEY MAKE. WHERE WILL THIS STOP?
MR. GOTTFRIED: I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION AT THE
RISK OF BEING CALLED OUT OF ORDER BY THE SPEAKER FOR PROLONGING THE
EXTENT TO WHICH THE DEBATE HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BILL.
NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO TURN THE BUFFALO BILLS INTO A -- INTO A
NOT-FOR-PROFIT OR PUBLIC ENTITY.
MR. MANKTELOW: ALL RIGHT. I APPRECIATE YOUR
ANSWER.
MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL.
MR. MANKTELOW: IF I WAS OUT OF LINE OR OUT OF
ORDER, I APOLOGIZE. IT WAS JUST GETTING TO THE POINT THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK
AT EVERYTHING ACROSS THE STATE, NOT JUST ONE SEPARATE ENTITY. AND AGAIN,
WE CAN SIT HERE AND POINT FINGERS AT THE FOR-PROFIT INDIVIDUALS, BUT THOSE
FOR-PROFIT INDIVIDUALS HELP PAY ALL OF OUR WAGES. HELP MAKE NEW YORK
WHAT IT IS TODAY. HELP MAKE THE UNITED STATES WHAT IT IS TODAY. I'M NOT
AGAINST NOT-FOR-PROFIT, I'M NOT AGAINST FOR-PROFIT. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
WORK TOGETHER. AND AS I SAID, WE ARE LOOKING AT SO MANY DIFFERENT
WAYS TO SPEND MONEY IN THIS STATE. HOUSING FOR LOW-INCOME FAMILIES.
JOBS FOR LOW-INCOME FAMILIES. NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TAKING AWAY
BUSINESSES IN NEW YORK AGAIN BECAUSE WE ARE AGAINST COMPANIES AND
PEOPLE MAKING MONEY. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. MAKING MONEY HELPS
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
PAY ALL OF OUR WAGES. HELPS PAY EXPENSES. HELPS US TO ALLOW US TO
HAVE SOME OF THE PROGRAMS THAT ARE PUSHED ON THIS FLOOR. THERE ARE
SOME REALLY, REALLY GOOD FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES. SO AGAIN, BECAUSE
WE HAVE ONE OR TWO BAD APPLES WE'RE BLAMING EVERYONE ACROSS THE
BOARD. ABSOLUTELY NOT THE WAY TO GOVERN THE STATE, ABSOLUTELY NOT THE
WAY TO RUN A BUSINESS. WE WANT TO SUCCEED AS NEW YORKERS. SO LET'S
WORK TOGETHER INSTEAD OF TRYING TO PUSH ONE SIDE OF THE EQUATION OUT --
OUT THE DOOR. IT JUST DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO
THE TAXPAYERS WE SERVE. TO THE COMPANIES THAT WORK TO THE BETTERMENT
OF FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE IN THESE NURSING FACILITIES. IF
THEY'RE NOT UP TO SNUFF, IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT, IT'S THE DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH'S FAULT FOR NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH. THAT'S FOR FOR-PROFIT AND
NOT-FOR-PROFITS. WE CAN CONTINUE TO BLAME THE WRONG PEOPLE WITHOUT
FIXING THE PROBLEM. AGAIN, WE DO THINGS GOOD IN AMERICA BECAUSE
WE'RE AMERICANS. BECAUSE WE'RE ALLOWED TO GROW. WE'RE ALLOWED TO
DO WHATEVER WE WANT TO DO IN A BUSINESS. IF WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THAT
AWAY, ARE WE TRULY AMERICA OR ARE WE GOING TO BE THE NEXT SOCIALIST
COUNTRY? I'M SORRY, I JUST -- WE'RE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION AND I
DON'T WANT TO SEE OUR PEOPLE SUFFER.
SO -- SO THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. AND AGAIN, IF MY
QUESTION WAS OUT OF LINE I APOLOGIZE TO YOU AND THE SPONSOR. THANK
YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY.
MEMBERS WILL REMEMBER WE ARE TRAINED TO TALK ABOUT
THE BILL THAT'S BEFORE US. I UNDERSTAND THE FRUSTRATIONS OF THIS WEEK,
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
THESE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. I'M SURE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN
OPPORTUNITY IN THE UPCOMING DAYS TO EXPRESS THEM RELATIVE TO THE
BUSINESS THAT WILL BE BEFORE US THEN. SO -- SO THAT WE CAN MOVE
THROUGH THIS, PLEASE TRY AND CONSTRAIN YOURSELF TO THE ISSUES AT HAND SO
THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO INTERRUPT YOU.
MR. GOTTFRIED ON THE BILL.
MR. GOTTFRIED: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. GOTTFRIED: YOU KNOW, MR. GOODELL AND I
AGREE ON A VERY PROFOUND PROPOSITION. WE GOT A VERY GOOD EXPOSITION
FROM MR. GOODELL ON THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE CAN AND DO RELY ON THE
PROFIT MOTIVE IN -- IN CAPITALIST ENTERPRISES IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF AREAS
OF OUR ECONOMY. I BELIEVE THAT HAS SERVED US WELL. NOW, THERE ARE
CERTAINLY AREAS IN WHICH GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS ARE NEEDED, BUT I
BELIEVE AND ALWAYS HAVE THAT AS A GENERAL RULE, THE PROFIT MOTIVE AND --
AND -- AND FOR-PROFIT ENTERPRISE SERVES US WELL. AND IF YOU GO TO A
SUPERMARKET AND YOU DON'T LIKE IT, CHANCES ARE IT'S PRETTY EASY TO FIND A
DIFFERENT SUPERMARKET TO GO TO. AND THE PEOPLE WHO RUN BOTH OF THOSE
SUPERMARKETS KNOW THAT YOU HAVE THAT ABILITY TO -- TO GO BACK AND
FORTH. NOW, THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH GOVERNMENT REGULATION
IS NEEDED. WE REGULATE THE FOOD THAT THOSE SUPERMARKETS SELL. WE'RE
SUPPOSED TO HAVE LAWS ABOUT MONOPOLIES AND THE LIKE. WE DON'T
ENFORCE THEM VERY WELL, BUT WE'VE HAD THEM SINCE THE 1890'S OR SO.
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE CAN UNIFORMLY RELY ON THE VERY POWERFUL
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MOTIVE OF MAKING A PROFIT IN EVERY AREA OF OUR SOCIETY. AND I BELIEVE
THAT NURSING HOMES ARE A VERY SPECIAL CASE IN WHICH WE CANNOT RELY ON
THE FOR-PROFIT MOTIVE, THAT VERY POWERFUL FINANCIAL MOTIVE TO DELIVER
QUALITY OF CARE. WHY? BECAUSE THE CUSTOMERS, THE RESIDENTS OF
NURSING HOMES ARE IN GREAT PERIL IF THEY ARE NOT CONSTANTLY GIVEN
HIGH-QUALITY CARE. THEY'LL SUFFER AND IN MANY CASES DIE. THEY ARE NOT
ABLE IN MOST CASES TO STAND UP AND -- FOR THEMSELVES AND TO SPEAK FOR
THEMSELVES. AS A SOCIETY WE HAVE NOT DONE A VERY GOOD JOB OF SENDING
IN INSPECTORS AND THE LIKE TO ENFORCE OUR QUALITY RULES. SHAME ON US.
BUT THAT'S BEEN THE DEAL FOR AS LONG AS I'M AWARE OF THROUGH -- I MEAN,
I'M -- I'M NOW ON MY NINTH GOVERNOR. NONE OF THEM HAS DONE A GOOD
JOB IN THIS AREA. AND UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK WE ALL RECOGNIZE THAT WHILE
THERE ARE SOME NURSING HOME RESIDENTS WHO GET VISITED A LOT BY THEIR
FAMILY MEMBERS, THERE ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF NURSING HOME RESIDENTS WHO
ALMOST ARE NEVER VISITED BY ANYBODY. GOING OUT TO VISIT YOUR RELATIVE
IN A NURSING HOME IS DIFFICULT, IT'S TIME CONSUMING. AND IT'S IN MANY
RESPECTS, I IMAGINE, NOT AT ALL VERY PLEASANT. AND SO OUR NURSING HOME
RESIDENTS ARE -- ARE FRAIL, LIVE IN CONSTANT JEOPARDY AND LIVE IN AN
ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THERE IS VERY LITTLE OUTSIDE MONITORING OF THE
QUALITY OF CARE THAT THEY GET. LITTLE MONITORING FROM THE GOVERNMENT,
AND IN SO MANY CASES LITTLE MONITORING FROM THEIR FAMILIES. I HATE
SAYING THAT, BUT I THINK WE ALL UNDERSTAND FROM EXPERIENCE THAT THAT'S
UNFORTUNATELY TRUE. AND WHEN YOU COMPOUND THAT BY SAYING THAT THE
PEOPLE WHO OWN THE FACILITY AND RUN THE FACILITY, THE OWNERS OF IT, ARE
MOTIVATED NOT BY A NON-PROFIT MISSION TO DO WELL BY THEIR RESIDENTS, BUT
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ARE MOTIVATED BY THAT VERY POWERFUL FOR-PROFIT MOTIVE THAT THAT IS A
VERY, VERY DANGEROUS RECIPE FOR ANY PROSPECT OF SURVIVAL AND QUALITY
CARE FOR THEIR RESIDENTS. AND THAT IS WHY IF YOU LOOK AT A HOST OF -- OF
QUALITY MEASURES -- NOW, MR. LAWLER FOUND ONE IN WHICH THIS DIDN'T --
THE EXCEPTION TO WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO BILL
HAMMOND, A DEVOTED CAPITALIST AND A BRILLIANT MAN AND A DEVOTED
CAPITALIST -- THAT WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THAT ONE SET OF STATISTICS, ANY
NUMBER OF STATISTICS SHOW US THAT THE QUALITY OF CARE IN FOR-PROFIT
NURSING HOMES -- AND NO ONE SHOULD BE SURPRISED ABOUT THIS -- IS BY A
HOST OF METRICS POORER QUALITY THAN THE QUALITY OF CARE IN NOT-FOR-PROFIT
NURSING HOMES. AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THE PECULIAR NATURE OF NURSING
HOMES, THE FRAILTY AND THE VULNERABILITY OF THE NURSING HOME RESIDENTS,
AND THE FACT THAT AS A SOCIETY AND AS INDIVIDUAL FAMILIES WE
UNFORTUNATELY TEND TO NOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE OVERSIGHT OF WHAT GOES ON
IN OUR NURSING HOMES. BECAUSE OF ALL OF THAT, THE PROFIT MOTIVE RESULTS
NOT IN NURSING HOME OWNERS WHO TRY TO DO, AS A WHOLE, THE BEST THEY
CAN, BUT INSTEAD ARE DRIVEN BY THAT PROFIT MOTIVE AND ALLOWED BY OUR
SOCIETY -- THEY ARE DRIVEN AND ALLOWED TO SPEND AS LITTLE EFFORT AND AS
LITTLE MONEY AS POSSIBLE ON PROTECTING THE FRAIL ELDERLY WHO DEPEND ON
THEM. AND NONE OF THAT IS PRETTY. FORTUNATELY, THE LESSONS FROM THE
FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOME INDUSTRY ARE NOT LESSONS THAT WE WOULD APPLY
TO SUPERMARKETS OR IPHONES OR -- OR WHAT CAR WE SHOULD BUY. BUT THAT
DOESN'T MEAN THAT THAT LESSON SHOULD BE IGNORED IN THE CASE OF NURSING
HOMES. AND THAT IS WHY I BELIEVE WE SHOULD NO LONGER BE LICENSING
NEW NURSING HOMES IN NEW YORK, NO LONGER ALLOWING THEM TO GROW.
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YOU KNOW, IT OCCURS TO ME ONE -- ONE OTHER EXAMPLE OF WHY WE CAN'T
RELY ON -- ON GOVERNMENT REGULATION, AT LEAST IN THE CASE OF NURSING
HOMES.
WE HAD A RASH OF CASES IN WESTERN NEW YORK, AND I'M
SURE IT'S GONE ON ELSEWHERE, OF FOR-PROFIT ENTITIES THAT WANTED TO BUY UP
A NURSING HOME. AND THAT FOR-PROFIT ENTITY, EITHER ON ITS OWN OR
THROUGH CLOSELY-RELATED COMPANIES, OWNED NURSING HOMES ALREADY
ELSEWHERE IN THE STATE THAT HAD A TERRIBLE QUALITY RECORD AND HAD A HOST
OF VIOLATIONS AND OTHER MEASURES SHOWING THAT THEY WERE DOING A
TERRIBLE JOB. DID THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. YOU'RE
NOT FIT TO TAKE OVER THIS NURSING HOME IN THE BUFFALO AREA. WE'RE NOT
GOING TO LET YOU DO IT. NO. THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT DID -- DID NOT DO
THAT. AND IN CASE AFTER CASE THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT WAS TURNING OVER
THE OWNERSHIP OF NURSING HOMES TO OPERATORS THAT HAD HORRENDOUS
RECORDS OF CARING FOR THEIR RESIDENTS. SO AT LEAST IN THE CASE OF NURSING
HOMES, GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS HAVE A -- A LIMITED RECORD OF SUCCESS.
FAMILY MONITORING HAS A VERY LIMITED RECORD OF SUCCESS. YOU CAN'T
RELY ON NURSING HOME RESIDENTS TO SAY, GEE, I'VE BEEN HERE FOR A WEEK.
I DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR IT. I'M GOING TO GO TO THE NURSING HOME
ACROSS THE STREET. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. ALL OF THE MECHANISMS
THAT WE RELY ON, USUALLY SUCCESSFULLY, TO BE ABLE TO RELY ON THE PRIVATE
SECTOR REALLY DON'T WORK VERY WELL IN THE AREA OF NURSING HOMES, AND
THAT IS WHY WE NEED THIS BILL.
THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.
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THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD
THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 5842. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY MEMBER
WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THE CONFERENCE POSITION
IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS
PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.
MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN
CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION, AS REFLECTED IN THE
59 NO VOTES THE LAST TIME WE VOTED ON IT WHICH ACTUALLY EXCEEDS THE
NUMBER OF MEMBERS IN MY CAUCUS. BUT IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO CHANGE
THEIR MIND AND VOTE IN FAVOR THEY'RE CERTAINLY WELCOME TO DO SO HERE
ON THE FLOOR OR BY CALLING THE MINORITY LEADER'S OFFICE.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER. THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF
THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION. HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW WHO WOULD LIKE
TO BE AN EXCEPTION. THEY CAN FEEL FREE TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY LEADER'S
OFFICE AND WE WILL MAKE SURE THEIR VOTE IS PROPERLY RECORDED, SIR.
THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MRS.
PEOPLES-STOKES.
(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MR. CAHILL TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. CAHILL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I WAS
THINKING ABOUT STANDING UP ON DEBATE AT DIFFERENT TIMES DURING THE
COURSE OF THE DEBATE. SOMETIMES TO DEBATE AGAINST MR. GOTTFRIED AND
SOMETIMES TO DEBATE WITH MR. GOTTFRIED. YOU KNOW, IT WAS A -- IT WAS
DIFFERENT TIMES DURING THE COURSE OF THE DISCUSSION. BUT HE SO VERY
ELOQUENTLY STATED IN HIS STATEMENT IN -- WHEN HE WAS DISCUSSING THE
BILL, THE IMPORTANCE OF NOT-FOR-PROFITS IN HEALTHCARE. AND THIS IS REALLY
A QUESTION OF THE PRACTICAL AND THE IDEAL. THE PERSONAL AND THE
SOCIETAL. WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE PERSONALLY, WE DON'T
REALLY THINK ABOUT THE -- THE BUSINESS MODEL THAT THE NURSING HOME
WHERE OUR LOVED ONE IS GOING TO GO, WHETHER IT'S A FOR-PROFIT, A
NON-FOR-PROFIT, A GOVERNMENT-RUN. WHAT WE THINK ABOUT IS THE BEST
CARE. BUT AS A PERSON WHO HAS JUST BEEN THROUGH THIS ANALYSIS, I CAN
TELL YOU THAT THE COMPROMISES IN THE FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES DRIVE
PEOPLE AWAY FROM THEM BUT THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH NOT-FOR-PROFITS BEDS
AVAILABLE. SO I RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING FOR-PROFIT NURSING
HOMES TO FILL THOSE VOIDS THAT EXIST IN OUR COMMUNITIES WHERE THOSE
BEDS OTHERWISE MAY NOT BE. SO THAT'S THE REAL, THAT'S THE PRACTICAL. BUT
WHAT IS THE IDEAL? THE IDEAL IS THAT EVERY TIME WE THINK ABOUT
HEALTHCARE WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PATIENT.
NOT THE FOR-PROFIT MOTIVE, NOT THE ABILITY OF SOMEONE TO SURVIVE IN THE
FOR-PROFIT WORLD, BUT WHETHER THAT PATIENT IS GETTING THE BEST CARE.
THAT'S THE IDEAL. AND IN THIS HOUSE WE OUGHT TO BE STRIVING FOR THE
IDEAL. AND THE -- THE -- THE VALUES ADVANCED IN THIS LEGISLATION ARE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
VALUES THAT WE HAVE LONG HELD IN HEALTHCARE. THAT HEALTHCARE SHOULD
BE RUN BY PROFESSIONALS AND NOT-FOR-PROFITS, AND THAT WHERE WE ALLOW
FOR-PROFIT INTO HEALTHCARE SHOULD BE THE EXCEPTION AND NOT THE RULE.
I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. CAHILL IN THE
AFFIRMATIVE.
MR. BYRNE TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. BYRNE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN
MY VOTE. I LISTENED THROUGHOUT THE DEBATE AND MANY OF THE COMMENTS
AND THANK THE SPONSOR FOR HIS PATIENCE IN ANSWERING OUR QUESTIONS. FOR
THOSE OF YOU THAT MAY NOT KNOW, I HAD THE PLEASURE OF -- BEFORE SERVING
IN THE LEGISLATURE I WORKED FOR A NON-PROFIT, THE AMERICAN HEART
ASSOCIATION. I WORKED FOR ANOTHER NON-PROFIT, STELLARIS HEALTH
NETWORK AS AN EMT. I WORKED FOR A FOR-PROFIT MULTI-SPECIALITY
MEDICAL GROUP. AND I -- I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE A MIX
OF FOR-PROFIT, NON-PROFIT AND PUBLIC SECTORS IN OUR HEALTHCARE. THE
FOR-PROFIT SECTOR HELPS DEVELOP AND CREATE LIFESAVING MEDICATIONS,
TECHNOLOGIES, VACCINES. AND THEY CARE FOR OUR LOVED ONES, THEY
PROVIDE SERVICES TO THE COMMUNITY. THEY EMPLOY OUR NEIGHBORS AND
OUR FAMILY MEMBERS. AND JUST BECAUSE SOME FOLKS LIKE TO LABEL
ANYTHING THAT'S ASSOCIATED WITH A FOR-PROFIT AS A SUBPAR SERVICE, I -- I
THINK THAT IS UNFAIR. THIS BILL WOULD PROHIBIT THE EXPANSION OR CREATION
OF THOSE NEW FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES, REGARDLESS OF THEIR PERFORMANCE,
WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE STRICT LAWS AND REGULATIONS IN PLACE BECAUSE
THESE -- THESE FACILITIES AREN'T REGULATED BY THE STATE. AND I ADMIRE THE
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SPONSOR'S DESIRE TO PROVIDE QUALITY CARE TO THESE FAMILIES, THESE
PATIENTS. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS BILL DOES THAT. I THINK IT WILL RESTRICT THE
DEVELOPMENT OF MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO EXPAND ACCESS FOR THESE FAMILIES
FOR PEOPLE THAT NEED NURSING HOME SERVICES.
I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND I ASK ALL OF MY
COLLEAGUES WHO ARE NOT HERE IN THE CHAMBER IN PERSON WITH US, WHO
ARE REMOTELY IN THEIR LOB OFFICE, LOOK HOW YOU VOTED. LAST YEAR 59
PEOPLE VOTED NO. I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND I ENCOURAGE MY
COLLEAGUES DO THE SAME. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY. MR. BYRNE
IN THE NEGATIVE.
MR. LAWLER TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.
THROUGHOUT THE STATE IN RECENT YEARS WE HAVE SEEN NUMEROUS COUNTY-
RUN NURSING HOMES SHUT DOWN AND RUN NOW BY EITHER NOT-FOR-PROFIT OR
FOR-PROFIT OWNERS BECAUSE IT WAS UNSUSTAINABLE FOR THE COUNTY TO
CONTINUE TO OPERATE THE FACILITY. THE SPONSOR TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT
FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES ARE NOT PROVIDING THE LEVEL OF CARE THAT THE PUBLIC
SECTOR AND NOT-FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES ARE PROVIDING. AND IN FACT HE
ADMITTED HIS INTENT IN THIS LEGISLATION IS VERY SIMPLE: TO ULTIMATELY
ELIMINATE ALL FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES. THIS IS BUT ONE STEP IN THAT DIRECTION.
THE SPONSOR ALSO SAID THAT GOVERNMENT FAILED TO OVERSEE. THAT
GOVERNMENT FAILED TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF RESIDENTS IN FOR-
PROFIT NURSING HOMES. BUT NOW GOVERNMENT WILL PROVIDE FOR THE HEALTH
AND WELL-BEING THROUGH PUBLIC FACILITIES. IT'S CONTRADICTORY. IT MAKES
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
NO SENSE. IF THE GOVERNMENT FAILED TO OVERSEE, IF THE GOVERNMENT FAILED
TO ENFORCE, IF THE GOVERNMENT FAILED TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY,
WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD WE JUST ELIMINATE ALL FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES AND
TURN EVERYTHING OVER TO THE GOVERNMENT? THIS IS VERY SIMPLE. WE HAD
A JOB TO DO, AND THAT IS TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF ALL NEW
YORKERS. AND WE SHOULD REGULATE THE INDUSTRY AND WE SHOULD REGULATE
THE FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES. BUT TO ELIMINATE ALL FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES
AND TO DO IT UNDER THE GUISE OF A FLAWED REPORT IS WRONG.
AND SO I ENCOURAGE ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES TO VOTE NO.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GANDOLFO.
MR. GANDOLFO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO
EXPLAIN MY VOTE. WHEN I LOOKED AT THE STATE'S NURSING HOMES RATINGS
ON THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH WEBSITE, THE BEST-PERFORMING FACILITIES IN
MY DISTRICT AND THE SURROUNDING AREA ARE ALL FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES. THERE
ARE SOME POORLY PERFORMING ONES. WE HAVE ONE-STAR FOR-PROFIT
FACILITIES, BUT WE ALSO HAVE ONE-STAR NON-PROFIT FACILITIES. SO WHY
SHOULD MY CONSTITUENTS BE LIMITED IN THE OPERATORS WHO CAN'T EXPAND
AND PROVIDE MORE CARE WHILE YOU HAVE THESE POORLY-PERFORMING
NON-PROFIT ONES THAT WILL BE ABLE TO EXPAND AND PROVIDE SUBPAR CARE?
SO I PERSONALLY DO NOT SEE HOW THIS HELPS EXPAND CARE OR IMPROVE CARE
IN MY DISTRICT. I THINK IT WILL END UP DIMINISHING IT IN THE LONG RUN.
WE ALREADY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF BEDS WHERE I -- I GET CALLS FROM
CONSTITUENTS FREQUENTLY, TRYING TO FIND PLACEMENT FOR THEIR FAMILY
MEMBERS. WE SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES TO EXPAND IF
THEY'RE PERFORMING WELL. WE SHOULDN'T BE TREATING THEM (INAUDIBLE)
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
EVERY -- EVERT FOR-PROFIT FACILITIES IF THEY'RE -- THEY'RE PERFORMING
POORLY.
SO WITH THAT, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING
FOR-PROFIT AS LONG AS YOU ARE PUTTING OUT A GOOD PRODUCT. WE SHOULD BE
ENCOURAGING MORE OF THESE FACILITIES TO IMPROVE CARE, NOT RESTRICTING
THEM. I VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GANDOLFO IN THE
NEGATIVE.
MR. MEEKS TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. MEEKS: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR AN
OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF
THE CHALLENGES WITH THE FOR-PROFIT NURSING HOMES, I WANT TO THANK THE
SPONSOR FOR -- FOR THIS LEGISLATION. IN SO MANY WAYS I'VE PERSONALLY
SEEN HOW THEY FURTHER PERPETUATE POVERTY. WHEN YOU HAVE EMPLOYEES
WHO ARE WORKING MAKING A MINIMUM WAGE AND THEY SHARE WITH YOU
HOW THEY SPEND THEIR OWN PERSONAL DOLLARS TO BUY HYGIENE PRODUCTS.
HOW THEY TEAR LINEN OR TOWELS INTO PIECES IN ORDER TO HAVE A WASHCLOTH
TO BATHE THE RESIDENTS OF A FACILITY, THAT'S A BIT DISTURBING TO ME. SO AS
IT RELATES TO FOR-PROFITS HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE MONEY, I AGREE
THEY SHOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A PROFIT. HOWEVER, WHEN THAT
PROFIT INFRINGES ON THE LIVELIHOOD OF THE RESIDENTS, THAT'S A PROBLEM.
SO AGAIN, I THANK THE SPONSOR FOR YOUR POSITION AND I
VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MEEKS IN THE
AFFIRMATIVE.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER, FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I WANT TO COMMEND
THE SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE THIS IS -- IT'S HARD TO MAKE A CALL
LIKE HE ASKED FOR IN THIS LEGISLATION, AND THAT IS FOR THE STATE TO CONSIDER
NOT ISSUING ANY NEW FOR-PROFIT LICENSING IN THE NURSING HOME INDUSTRY.
AND HONESTLY, I THINK THAT'S A GOOD CALL. AS A PERSON WHO HAS, YOU
KNOW, GROWN UP FROM A FAMILY OF SHARECROPPERS AS WELL AS A FAMILY OF
LANDOWNERS, I UNDERSTAND BUSINESS. AND I THINK THERE IS A PLACE FOR
BUSINESS ALL THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES AND DEFINITELY IN THE STATE OF
NEW YORK. BUT I DO HAVE SOME CONCERN WHEN YOU'RE IN THE NURSING
HOME BUSINESS AND YOUR BOTTOM LINE INTERFERES WITH THE WELL CARE OF
SOMEBODY'S LOVED ONE WHO IS IN THE NURSING HOME. AND WE HAVE SEEN
OVER MULTIPLE CASES WHERE THAT HAS BEEN THE ISSUE. THAT THEIR BOTTOM
LINE TO ENSURE PROFIT TAKES A POSITION OVER WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF
THE PATIENTS. THAT HAPPENED IN MY DISTRICT. THEY COMPLETELY FAILED
AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAD NO ONE ELSE TO SEND THERE BUT ANOTHER
NON-FOR-PROFIT WHO HAD PREVIOUSLY FAILED. ANOTHER FOR-PROFIT THAT HAD
PREVIOUSLY FAILED, EXCUSE MY MISTAKE THERE. BUT THE POINT IS IS THAT AT
THE END OF THE DAY, WHOEVER HAS THE CHARGE OF TAKING CARE OF SENIORS,
MUCH LIKE CHILDREN, THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY. AND
SO MAYBE THEIR PROFIT WILL ONLY BE $150 THIS DAY. MAYBE IT WILL ONLY BE
$125. IF WE CAN GET BUSINESSES TO START MAKING THAT KIND OF
CONSIDERABLE DECISION WHEN IT COMES TO THE LIFE OF A PATIENT, THEN I
THINK WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
AND AGAIN, I WANT TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR OF THIS
LEGISLATION. IT'S MY PLEASURE TO VOTE YES AND I ENCOURAGE MY
COLLEAGUES TO DO LIKEWISE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU. MRS.
PEOPLES-STOKES IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.
MR. SALKA TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. SALKA: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS WAS A
FASCINATING DEBATE, AND I THINK IT HAD TO BE -- IT HAD TO BE DONE. BUT
MY IMPRESSION THROUGH THIS WHOLE THING IS IT'S -- IT'S A BIT
COUNTERINTUITIVE BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING NOW AND WE WILL BE
FOR QUITE SOME TIME BECAUSE OF THE BABY BOOMERS WE'RE SEEING A
GROWTH IN THE ELDERLY, WHICH MEANS WE'RE GOING TO BE SEEING THE NEED
FOR SERVICES TO BE PROVIDED TO THOSE ELDERLY. AND IN MANY TIMES IT'S
GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE NEEDED IN -- IN NURSING HOME CARE. SO IF
WE'RE SEEING A MARKET INCREASE, WE'RE SEEING THE NUMBERS AND DEMANDS
INCREASE, BUT WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO STIFLE THE SUPPLY OF BEDS THAT ARE
GOING TO BE AVAILABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE -- THOSE BABY BOOMERS --
AND WHICH YOU'RE LOOKING AT ONE RIGHT NOW, AS A MATTER OF FACT AND I
HOPE IT'S A LONG TIME BEFORE I DO NEED NURSING CARE, BUT IN SOME RESPECT
IT'S -- IT'S INEVITABLE. BUT ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT SEEMED TO BE
PREDOMINANT WAS THE LACK OF THE ABILITY, FOR WHATEVER REASON, FOR THE
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH TO DO PROPER OVERSIGHT. SO I THINK THERE'S AN OLD
SAYING, RIGHT CHURCH, WRONG PEW. WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE ISSUES OF
QUALITY OF CARE IN NURSING HOMES, AND WE KNOW THERE ARE NUMBER OF
REASONS WHY. ONE OF THE BIG ONES, OF COURSE, IS REIMBURSEMENT, WHICH
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
I THINK IS INCUMBENT UPON THIS BODY TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS AND ADDRESS
IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. BUT WE ARE BLAMING IN A LOT OF RESPECTS THE
WRONG PEOPLE. IT'S BEEN ADMITTED THAT THERE ARE SOME BAD APPLES, AND
THERE ARE PROBABLY A LOT MORE THAN THERE SHOULD BE THAN WE SHOULD
ALLOW AS A GOVERNMENT. BUT ALSO IN THE SAME RESPECT IT'S BEEN SAID
MANY TIMES DURING THIS DEBATE THAT THERE ARE GOOD PLAYERS. THERE ARE
THOSE FOR-PROFITS THAT ARE DOING A GOOD JOB. AND ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES
BROUGHT UP A VERY INTERESTING POINT - AND I'VE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE
WITH THIS MYSELF - IS THAT IT'S NOT ALWAYS ELDERLY THAT NEED THESE BEDS,
BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO NEED OCCUPATIONAL AND PHYSICAL THERAPY,
RESPIRATORY SERVICES, THAT NEED TO HAVE CERTAIN SUPPORTS, ALL RIGHT, THAT A
FOR-PROFIT CAN PROVIDE. AND BY LIMITING THE GROWTH AND LIMITING THE
ABILITY OF THESE FOR-PROFITS TO BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THOSE MARKETS AND TO
BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THOSE VALUABLE SERVICES IS REALLY DOING AN INSERVICE
TO THOSE IN OUR STATE THAT NEED IT.
(BUZZER SOUNDS)
I REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE -- WELL, THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER. AND OF COURSE I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE ON THIS.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SALKA IN THE
NEGATIVE.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: IF YOU COULD RECORD OUR
COLLEAGUES MR. BARNWELL, MS. PHEFFER AMATO, MS. HYNDMAN, MR. DAN
ROSENTHAL, MR. EICHENSTEIN AND MR. SAYEGH IN THE NEGATIVE ON THIS
PIECE OF LEGISLATION.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.
(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)
THE BILL IS PASSED.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER, FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO INTERRUPT OUR PROCEEDINGS FOR A BRIEF
INTRODUCTION. ON BEHALF OF MS. JEAN-PIERRE AS WELL AS MR. JENSEN, WE
SHOULD KNOW THAT THIS IS LIBRARY WEEK AND AS SUCH, WE'VE HAD SOME
LIBRARIANS FROM AROUND THE STATE TO JOIN US. THEY ARE ANNALEE
DRAGON, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FROM THE NEW YORK LIBRARY
ASSOCIATION. CASSIE GUNTHER [SIC], GREECE PUBLIC LIBRARY DIRECTOR.
BETH MERKLE, DIRECTOR OF LIBRARIES FROM THE STRONG MUSEUM OF PLAY.
ARLENE LAVERDE, LIBRARIAN FROM TOWNSEND HARRIS HIGH SCHOOL
LIBRARY. KEVIN VERBESEY, SUFFOLK COOPERATIVE LIBRARY SYSTEM. AND
THERESA [SIC] KILLIAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE SOUTHEASTERN LIBRARY
RESOURCE COUNCIL.
MR. SPEAKER, IF YOU WOULD PLEASE WELCOME THEM TO
OUR CHAMBERS AND OFFER THEM THE CORDIALITIES OF OUR FLOOR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY. ON BEHALF
OF MS. JEAN-PIERRE, MR. JENSEN, THE SPEAKER AND ALL THE MEMBERS, WE
WELCOME YOU HERE TO THE NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY. WE EXTEND TO
YOU THE PRIVILEGES OF THE FLOOR. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE WORK
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THAT YOU DO IN MAKING OUR LIBRARIES WORK AND ENSURING THAT THEY STAY
ALIVE AND ARE VIBRANT. MANY OF US ARE WHAT WE CALL LATCHKEY KIDS, AND
SO I WAS ONE OF THOSE SO I WILL ALWAYS APPRECIATE WHAT LIBRARIES HAVE
DONE FOR ME IN MY LIFE. AND WE EXTEND OUR GRATITUDE FOR YOU AND
CONTINUING THAT FOR THE CHILDREN AND THE ADULTS OF TODAY. THANK YOU SO
VERY MUCH.
(APPLAUSE)
PAGE 21, CALENDAR NO. 203, THE CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A06157-A, CALENDAR
NO. 203, GUNTHER, JACOBSON. AN ACT TO AMEND THE GENERAL MUNICIPAL
LAW, IN RELATION TO PREREQUISITES FOR FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE PROVIDED BY
INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCIES.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS
REQUESTED, MRS. GUNTHER.
MRS. GUNTHER: THIS BILL WILL REQUIRE APPLICANTS
FOR FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FROM THE IDA TO DISCLOSE AN ESTIMATE ON THE
AMOUNT OF PROJECT MATERIALS, SUPPLIES, AND JOBS THAT WILL BE SOURCED
WITHIN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. PALMESANO.
MR. PALMESANO: YES, MR. SPEAKER, WILL THE
SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. GUNTHER, WILL
YOU YIELD?
MRS. GUNTHER: SURE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. GUNTHER YIELDS,
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
SIR.
MR. PALMESANO: I APPRECIATE IT. I HAVE SOME
QUESTIONS AROUND THE BILL, I UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION BEHIND THE BILL. IT
SEEMS LIKE THE REAL ISSUE FROM -- FROM MY RESEARCH AND TALKING WITH
INDIVIDUALS AROUND THE BILL IS THE PERCENTAGE OF MATERIALS PURCHASED FOR
THE PROJECT THAT COMES FROM NEW YORK STATE, BECAUSE IT REALLY DOESN'T
DEFINE IN THE BILL PRODUCED, MANUFACTURED OR OTHERWISE GENERATED IN
NEW YORK STATE. IS THERE ANY DEFINITION FOR THAT?
MRS. GUNTHER: THERE'S NO REAL REQUIREMENT,
THERE'S JUST A DISCLOSURE ISSUE. SO THERE'S NO REAL REQUIREMENT; JUST TO
DISCLOSE.
MR. PALMESANO: OKAY. I THINK ONE OF THE
CONCERNS I THINK THAT I -- I WAS HEARING RELATIVE AS TO THE INTERPRETATION
BECAUSE AN ANALYSIS DONE BY AN IDA MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN AN ANALYSIS
-- INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS DONE BY THE, LIKE THE OFFICE OF THE STATE
COMPTROLLER OR THE AUTHORITY BUDGET OFFICE, WHICH REVIEWS THESE SORT
OF THIRD-PARTIES GETTING INTO WHAT THE DEFINITION IS AND WHAT -- AN
INTERPRETATION BY THE IDA COULD BE A DIFFERENT -- OF THAT DEFINITION
COULD BE DIFFERENT FROM THE ADO OR THE OFFICE OF THE STATE
COMPTROLLER AND THAT COULD POSE UP SOME PROBLEMS AS FAR AS KIND OF
RECONCILING THAT. IS THAT GOING TO POSE AN ISSUE IN ANY WAY
WHATSOEVER?
MRS. GUNTHER: I DON'T THINK THAT'S REALLY AN ISSUE
AT ALL, HONESTLY, BECAUSE IT'S BY THE APPLICANT.
MR. PALMESANO: BUT THE OTHER QUESTION I THINK
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FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, IS IT REALLY FEASIBLE TO DETERMINE WHERE ALL THESE
PRODUCTS ARE COMING FROM AND HOW TO ACCURATELY DETERMINE WHERE IT'S
PRODUCED, MANUFACTURED OR GENERATED FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE? I THINK
THAT'S WHERE SOME CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS COME INTO PLAY BECAUSE HOW
ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO IDENTIFY THAT AND THEN, YOU KNOW, BASED ON WITH
EVERYTHING GOING ON WITH THE RISING CONSTRUCTION COSTS, MATERIALS COSTS
AND TRYING TO IDENTIFY THAT AND THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS.
MRS. GUNTHER: SO I THINK THAT IT IS AS MUCH AS
PRACTICABLE THAT YOU COULD ACTUALLY DO THAT. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE
EXPECTATION IS TO GIVE ALL THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE.
MR. PALMESANO: ON THAT FRONT, THOUGH --
MRS. GUNTHER: I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT IN THE
SUPPORT OF OUR NEW YORKERS IN NEW YORK STATE, I THINK THAT'S
IMPORTANT AND ALSO, IDA'S WERE GIVING MONEY OUT THAT WE SEE WHERE
THE MONEY IS GOING AND IT'S, TO ME, IT'S AN ACCOUNTABILITY ISSUE.
MR. PALMESANO: SURE. NO, I CAN UNDERSTAND
THAT. YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE PARIS PAPERWORK THAT'S DONE AND
REQUIRED FOR THE IDA'S ACCOUNTABILITY AS FAR AS PROJECTS AND THINGS OF
THAT NATURE, RIGHT?
MRS. GUNTHER: YES.
MR. PALMESANO: OKAY. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING
THAT THE WAY THE PARIS PAPERWORK IS SET UP, IT'S REALLY NOT EQUIPPED TO
ADDRESS AND TRY TO PUT THIS INFORMATION INTO THAT -- INTO THAT. WOULDN'T
WE HAVE TO REALLY LOOK AT A WHOLE REVAMPING OF THAT AND ALSO, YOU
KNOW, COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS IS REALLY NOT DESIGNED TO FACTOR THAT INTO ITS
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CALCULATIONS ON SOMETHING THEY'RE NOT CURRENTLY ABLE TO DO. SO
WOULDN'T WE HAVE TO LOOK AT CHANGING THAT WHOLE PAPERWORK REPORTING
SITUATION IN THIS --
MRS. GUNTHER: NO, NOT NECESSARY. BASICALLY,
YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT LOCALLY.
MR. PALMESANO: SO BUT IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE
MORE DOCUMENTATION, MORE PAPERWORK, MORE REPORTING, IN ADDITION TO
THE PARIS THAT'S PUT ON THE IDA, CORRECT?
MRS. GUNTHER: I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT IT'LL
INCREASE THE WORKLOAD AT ALL. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS CHECKS AND
BALANCES. I THINK IT GIVES US A LOT OF GREAT INFORMATION AND, YOU KNOW,
I THINK IT'S A BILL THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO MANY OF OUR CONSTITUENTS
ACROSS NEW YORK STATE.
MR. PALMESANO: WELL, RIGHT NOW DON'T LOCAL
IDA'S USUALLY TRY TO DETERMINE AND ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF LOCAL JOBS
THAT ARE BEING HIRED FOR PROJECTS, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO -- THEY TRY TO
CALCULATE THAT RIGHT NOW, DON'T THEY?
MRS. GUNTHER: YES, YES.
MR. PALMESANO: AND I KNOW IN THIS BILL IT SAYS
THAT --
MRS. GUNTHER: COULD YOU GO A LITTLE CLOSURE TO
YOUR MICROPHONE? JUST A LITTLE BIT.
MR. PALMESANO: SURE, I'M SORRY. I'LL TRY TO TALK A
LITTLE LOUDER, TOO.
MRS. GUNTHER: THANK YOU SO MUCH.
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MR. PALMESANO: SORRY ABOUT THAT. AND SO I
KNOW ALSO IN THIS BILL, IT DEALS WITH A NUMBER OF JOBS THAT ALSO HAVE TO
REPORT FROM WHICH AREA THE INDIVIDUAL IS BEING HIRED TO FILL THOSE JOBS
ARE FROM BASED ON A DETERMINATION BY THAT AGENCY, CORRECT?
MRS. GUNTHER: YES.
MR. PALMESANO: AND HOW DOES THAT TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT LIKE, YOU KNOW, I LIVE ON A BORDER COUNTY, LIKE STEUBEN
COUNTY IS A BORDER COUNTY, THESE AGENCIES REALLY DON'T TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT OUT-OF-STATE LABOR THAT COULD COME IN WHERE LIKE 20 TO 30
PERCENT OF OUR LABOR MARKET IS OUT-OF-STATE LABOR FROM PENNSYLVANIA.
HOW DOES THAT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE REQUIREMENT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE
WITH THIS --
MRS. GUNTHER: FIRST OF ALL, IT'S NOT A MANDATE AND
SECONDLY, THEY SHOULD DO THE BEST THEY CAN. I THINK THAT INFORMATION IS
REALLY VALUABLE.
MR. PALMESANO: ALL RIGHT. THE OTHER QUESTION I
WANTED TO KIND OF GET BACK TO, I KNOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REPORTING AS
BEST YOU CAN RELATIVE TO WHEN I TALKED, AGAIN, ABOUT PRODUCED,
MANUFACTURED OR GENERATED. FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE IN NEW YORK WE
PRODUCE A LOT OF INDUSTRIAL GARNET, CONSTRUCTION, SAND AND GRAVEL,
CRUSHED STONE AND SALT AMONG OTHER THINGS. SOME OF THESE RAW
MATERIALS MAY BE PRODUCED IN NEW YORK BUT THEN BE PROCESSED,
FABRICATED AND MANUFACTURED IN OTHER STATES. SO HOW DO YOU RECONCILE
THE DIFFERENCES IN THOSE PERCENTAGES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED AND HOW
DO YOU EQUIP THAT ACCURATELY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE?
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MRS. GUNTHER: I MEAN, HONESTLY, THEY DO THE
VERY BEST THEY CAN IF THEY SOURCE -- I MEAN IF THEY SOURCE IT FROM NEW
YORK STATE, I THINK THEY DO THE BEST THEY CAN. YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S
GOING TO GIVE US A PICTURE OF THE USAGE OF OUR OWN MATERIALS AND
MONEY SPENT IN NEW YORK. I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.
MR. PALMESANO: RIGHT, AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE
YOU'RE TRYING TO GET AT THE TRANSPARENCY OF IT, I UNDERSTAND THAT. I JUST I
THINK HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THE IMPLEMENTATION AND REALLY WHAT WOULD
END UP BEING REQUIREMENTS THAT WE PLACE ON THE LOCAL IDA'S TO KIND OF
DO THIS TYPE OF WORK. ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHICH
GOODS WHICH ARE PRODUCED OR MANUFACTURED AND GENERATED IN THE STATE
AND HOW THEY WILL BE USED. I GUESS MY QUESTION IS WOULD -- SAY YOU'RE
LAYING A CONCRETE FOUNDATION. MUST YOU STATE THAT THIS CONCRETE
FOUNDATION COMES FROM NEW YORK SAND, ROCK, AND WATER AND OTHER
MINERALS? I MEAN, DO YOU HAVE TO GET THAT SPECIFIC IN THE REPORTING --
MRS. GUNTHER: NO, NO.
MR. PALMESANO: -- SAYING HOW THAT'S USED?
MRS. GUNTHER: NO, NOT THAT SPECIFIC.
MR. PALMESANO: BECAUSE I THINK I JUST GET
CONFUSED AND CONCERNED ABOUT THE LANGUAGE IN THE BILL FROM THAT
PERSPECTIVE THAT MAKES THAT CONSIDERATION. SAME THING ON LUMBER.
YOU KNOW, MUCH OF OUR LUMBER IS IMPORTED FROM OUT-OF-STATE BUT THEN
IT'S SOLD IN-STATE. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING A LOT OF HOUSING ON EASTERN
LONG ISLAND IS BUILT IN PART WITH OUT-OF-STATE LUMBER. HOW WOULD THAT
BE -- HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE THAT CALCULATION AND THOSE PERCENTAGES
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THAT HAVE TO BE REPORTED BECAUSE I KNOW YOU SAY TO THE BEST EXTENT
POSSIBLE, BUT IT DOES SAY YOU HAVE TO REPORT THIS. HOW WOULD YOU
MAKE THOSE DETERMINATIONS FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE?
MRS. GUNTHER: SO IF IT'S A PRIVATE COMPANY THEY
DON'T, BUT IF THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE APPLYING FOR ASSISTANCE THEN THEY DO
HAVE TO REPORT IT, AND I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO, YOU KNOW, JUST DO AN
ACCURATE -- AS BEST YOU CAN AN ACCURATE REPORTING. YOU KNOW, I KNOW
IN MY COMMUNITY WE DO A LOT OF LOGGING, FORESTBURGH, NEW YORK,
SULLIVAN COUNTY, AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR
LUMBER THAT WE'RE LOGGING AND TAKING DOWN IS USED IN NEW YORK STATE
BEFORE WE BRING IN FROM ANY OTHER STATE. YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, YOU
KNOW, THESE FOLKS HAVE BEEN GENERATIONAL LOGGERS AND, YOU KNOW,
SUPPORTING THEM IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.
MR. PALMESANO: YES, AND I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.
I THINK ONE OF THE CONCERNS I HAVE, AND I THINK OTHERS MAY HAVE, TOO, IS
WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO DEVELOP AND BRING BUSINESSES IN, TRYING TO TRACK
THIS DOWN IS NOT ALWAYS THE EASIEST THING, BUT PUTTING THIS ADDITIONAL
REQUIREMENT ON THE BUSINESSES WHO WE WANT TO COME IN AND --
MRS. GUNTHER: IT'S NOT A REQUIREMENT; IT'S NOT A
REQUIREMENT.
MR. PALMESANO: I THINK THE CONCERN IS THAT
ULTIMATELY THIS IS GOING TO LEAD TO THAT, A REQUIREMENT, AS FAR AS USING
THESE TYPES OF MATERIAL AND DOCUMENTING THAT, AND I THINK ESPECIALLY
LIKE WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE STEEL REQUIRES IRON ORE AND OTHER MINERALS,
BUT THEN THEY COULD -- YOU COULD BASICALLY HAVE A BLAST FURNACE WHICH
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COULD TAKE PLACE OUT-OF-STATE, BUT THEN IT'S FABRICATED IN NEW YORK
STATE. HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THOSE DIFFERENCES AND THOSE PERCENTAGES
WHEN THEY HAVE TO REPORT THIS? AND AGAIN, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
PRIVATE BUSINESSES, I MEAN, THAT'S JUST PUTTING MORE OF A BURDEN FROM A
REPORTING PERSPECTIVE WHEN MANY BUSINESSES JUST WANT TO --
DEVELOPERS, THEY WANT TO BRING BUSINESSES IN SO WE CAN GROW OUR
ECONOMY, BUT WHEN YOU PUT MORE AND MORE -- I KNOW YOU SAY IT'S NOT A
REQUIREMENT, BUT TO ME, THE WAY I READ THE LANGUAGE IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S
JUST PUTTING MORE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS WHICH MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT
FOR THEM TO DO SO.
MRS. GUNTHER: YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW, I THINK
THAT THE -- THE REASON THAT WE'RE DOING IT IS TO PROMOTE NEW YORK, NEW
YORK LABOR WE WANT TO PROMOTE, AND USING OUR -- OUR MATERIALS AND ALL
THE WONDERFUL THINGS THAT WE DO IN NEW YORK STATE. I KNOW WE HAVE A
TON OF LOGGERS IN SULLIVAN COUNTY, DELAWARE COUNTY, AND WOULDN'T WE
WANT TO USE THEIR PRODUCTS BEFORE WE USE ANY. AND I THINK THAT, YOU
KNOW, IT GIVES US, IT KIND OF GIVES US A PICTURE INTO WHAT CAN WE DO
BETTER TO PROMOTE OUR -- OUR PRODUCTS, AND I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT, YOU
KNOW. A LOT OF OUR FOLKS THROUGH THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF
THINGS STOPPED AND NOW BY, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT WHAT PRODUCTS WE
PRODUCE AND, YOU KNOW, OUR LOGGERS AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, I THINK
IT'S AN IMPORTANT THING TO DO. AND I THINK GO NEW YORK AND WE HAVE
TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE AND WHAT WE'RE DOING
AND WHAT CAN WE DO BETTER. THAT'S WHAT I THINK.
MR. PALMESANO: NO, I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT AND I
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UNDERSTAND YOUR INTENT WITH THE LEGISLATION, I JUST HAD SOME QUESTIONS.
BUT I THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, MRS. GUNTHER.
MRS. GUNTHER: THANK YOU, TOO.
MR. PALMESANO: MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. PALMESANO: I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THE INTENTION
BEHIND THE LEGISLATION IS WELL-INTENDED BY THE SPONSOR. I THINK, YOU
KNOW, RIGHT OFF THE FRONT I THINK A BETTER APPROACH MIGHT BE TO LOOK AT A
COMPROMISE, MAYBE HAVING THE NEW YORK STATE ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT COUNCIL MAYBE ESTABLISH A BEST PRACTICES WHERE IDA'S
COULD GO IN AND GATHER INFORMATION ON THE BACK END SO WHERE THEY'D
HAVE ACTUAL HARD DATA AND TO SHOW THE DOCUMENTATION ON THE MATERIALS
AND WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM AND THE SOURCE, RATHER THAN TRYING TO
AND HAVING TO ANTICIPATE THAT AND REQUIRE THAT THEY HAVE TO IDENTIFY
THAT, WHICH SEEMS LIKE THAT'S REALLY KIND OF UNWORKABLE FROM AN
OPERATIONAL PERSPECTIVE.
WE KNOW THAT OUR IDA'S HAVE A REALLY THOROUGH
APPLICATION PROCESS, THEY ASK FOR EMPLOYMENT FROM LOCAL LABOR MARKET
AND ATTEMPT TO GATHER THIS DATA AND IDENTIFY WHERE THE COMPANY SALES
ARE GOING AND HOW TO IDENTIFY THAT BASED ON THE MATERIALS THAT ARE
PROVIDED. I THINK MOST OF THAT INFORMATION IS VERY BROAD AND GENERAL
JUST TO KIND OF IDENTIFY IT BECAUSE WE WANT TO GET THESE BUSINESSES HERE
AND WE WANT TO GROW THE ECONOMY. I THINK THERE'S QUESTIONS REGARDING,
YOU KNOW, BORDER COUNTIES AND 20 TO 30 PERCENT OF THE LABOR FORCE
MIGHT COME FROM PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH I REPRESENT A BORDER COUNTY. I
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THINK WITH THESE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS, I THINK THAT THESE AGENCIES
DON'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THIS OUT-OF-STATE LABOR WHICH IS -- WHICH IS
IMPORTANT.
I THINK MANY OF OUR CONTRACTORS, THEY'RE LOOKING TO
TAKE THE MATERIALS WHEREVER THEY CAN GET THEM FROM. THEY MIGHT NOT
NECESSARILY KNOW WHERE THEIR VENDORS ARE GETTING THIS INFORMATION
FROM, AND I THINK IT JUST PUTS MORE REQUIREMENTS ON TRYING TO GET THESE
PROJECTS DEVELOPED AND MORE OF A BURDEN. I THINK THESE ARE CONCERNS
THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED BY THE BUILDERS AND THE CONTRACTORS AND,
CERTAINLY, WITH OUR LOCAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCIES, AS WELL. I
THINK IT'S REALLY JUST VERY DIFFICULT, IF NOT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, TO
ACCURATELY ESTIMATE THE PERCENTAGE OF THESE PRODUCTS COMING IN TO OUR
STATE, ESPECIALLY WITH SOARING CONSTRUCTION COSTS AND SUPPLY CHAIN
ISSUES THAT REALLY HAVE TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. I JUST THINK -- I
THINK WELL-INTENTIONED, I JUST THINK IT ALMOST SETS THESE IDA'S UP TO FAIL
AND I THINK THAT WITH OUR IDA'S REALLY AT THE FOREFRONT OF OUR -- OF OUR --
WORKING WITH OUR BUSINESS COMMUNITY TO BRING THEM IN AND PROVIDE
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, TO HELP OUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND HELP CREATE
JOBS, AND HELP OUR LOCAL ECONOMIES. THESE IDA'S ALREADY HAVE
NUMEROUS REPORTING REQUIREMENTS AND AUDITS FROM THE OFFICE OF THE
STATE COMPTROLLER AND THE AUTHORITIES BUDGET OFFICE.
I DO THINK THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING THE
DEFINITION IN THE BILL. THERE'S NO DEFINITION IN THE BILL RELATIVE TO, YOU
KNOW, PRODUCED, MANUFACTURED OR OTHERWISE GENERATED IN THE STATE. I
THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE WE CAN HAVE
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BUSINESSES THAT ARE MANUFACTURING STUFF OUTSIDE THE STATE, BUT THEN IS
COMING IN THE STATE TO BE FABRICATED. HOW DO YOU IDENTIFY THAT? I
THINK YOU CAN GET INTO A CONFLICT WHERE THE IDA'S ARE INTERPRETING IT
ONE WAY AND THE OFFICE OF THE STATE COMPTROLLER AND THE ABO'S ARE
INTERPRETING IT ANOTHER WAY. WHAT I DON'T WANT TO SEE HAPPEN IS THAT
THEY'RE NOT ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES. THEY'RE PUTTING THAT INFORMATION IN
THERE THAT COULD LEAD TO A LOSS OF PROJECTS DEVELOPMENT OR PENALTIES THAT
HAPPEN.
THIS IS SOMETHING WE DON'T REALLY NEED AT THIS POINT IN
TIME. YOU KNOW, TO TRY TO BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THIS, WHERE THESE RAW
MATERIALS WERE COMING FROM AND WHETHER THEY'RE COMING FROM ONE
STATE OR -- AND IT'S BEING SOURCED IN-STATE, OR FABRICATED OUT-OF-STATE. I
MEAN, THAT JUST MUDDIES THE WATER AND I THINK JUST PUTS ONE MORE LAYER
OF BUREAUCRACY. I THINK WHEN WE CREATE MORE OBSTACLES THAT PLACE
MORE COSTLY BURDENS ON OUR BUSINESSES LOOKING TO DO DEVELOPMENT
PROJECTS IN NEW YORK STATE. I THINK THAT I'M JUST AFRAID AND CONCERNED
THIS WILL HINDER AND HURT LOCAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT EFFORTS IN OUR
COMMUNITIES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO LOCATE AND CREATE JOBS AND HELP OUR
LOCAL ECONOMY, THIS AT A TIME WHEN WE DON'T NEED IT, ESPECIALLY WHEN
IN NEW YORK STATE WE KNOW WE HAVE ONE OF THE WORST BUSINESS
CLIMATES IN THE COUNTRY. WE HAVE THE HIGHEST TAX RATES IN THE COUNTRY.
OUR REGULATORY CLIMATE IS TERRIBLE. RISING INFLATION, INCREASED GAS,
DIESEL, AND ENERGY COSTS. MATERIAL COSTS ARE RISING FOR OUR BUSINESSES
AND OUR CONTRACTORS AND OUR DEVELOPERS. THE SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES THAT
WE'RE DEALING WITH. THIS JUST SEEMS LIKE ADDITIONAL BURDENS WE'RE
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PLACING ON OUR BUSINESSES AND ON THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AGENCIES
WORKING WITH THEM AT A TIME WHEN WE DO NOT NEED IT.
WE NEED TO BE SUPPORTING THEM, TAKING SOME OF THE
BURDEN OFF OF THEM. WE CAN BE -- WE CAN WORK AND BE TRANSPARENT.
LET'S GO BACK AND WORK ON THE BACK END WHEN WE HAVE REAL DATA AS
WAS SUGGESTED. IF WE HAD THAT DATA ON THE BACK SIDE THEN WE COULD
LOOK AT THE BEST PRACTICES INSTEAD OF PUTTING THESE MANDATED
REQUIREMENTS -- AND THE SPONSOR SAID IT'S NOT MANDATED, BUT THE WAY I
READ THE BILL IS A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO REPORT IT AND IF
YOU DON'T REPORT IT IS THERE PENALTIES THAT COME ALONG WITH THAT.
SO I JUST THINK IN MY PERSPECTIVE OF GIVEN THE
SITUATION WE'RE FACING, THE ECONOMIC SITUATION WE'RE FACING, AGAIN, AS I
MENTIONED, RISING INFLATION, GAS, DIESEL, ENERGY COSTS, MATERIALS COSTS,
SUPPLY CHAIN CRISIS AND THE OVERALL ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT WE HAVE IN
THE STATE. I JUST THINK THIS IS THE WRONG BILL AT THE WRONG TIME AND IT'S
NOT REALLY GOING TO HELP US, HELP OUR LOCAL BUSINESSES, HELP OUR LOCAL
COMMUNITIES GROW AND DEVELOPMENT -- DEVELOP THE WAY WE WANT THEM
TO GROW AT A TIME WHEN WE'RE IN A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION. SO FOR THAT
REASON, MR. SPEAKER, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE SPONSOR, I UNDERSTAND
AND APPRECIATE HER INTENTIONS, I'M GOING TO BE VOTING NO ON THIS BILL
AND I'M GOING TO ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME. THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MS. GIGLIO.
MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE
SPONSOR YIELD?
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ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. GUNTHER, WILL
YOU YIELD?
MRS. GUNTHER: SURE.
MS. GIGLIO: SO I HAVE RIVERHEAD BUILDING SUPPLY
IN MY DISTRICT, AND THEY HAVE 14 LOCATIONS IN NEW YORK, THEY HAVE TWO
IN CONNECTICUT AND THEY HAVE FOUR IN RHODE ISLAND. SO THEY DO MOST
OF THEIR MANUFACTURING AND THEIR MILLWORK HERE IN NEW YORK, BUT
THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT STARTING A TRUSS COMPANY WHICH WOULD NEED A
LARGER SPACE AND WHERE WAREHOUSE SPACE TO MANUFACTURE IN NEW YORK
CAN RUN UPWARDS OF $12 A SQUARE FOOT VERSUS OUT-OF-STATE IS $5 A
SQUARE FOOT, I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT SUBSIDIES SO THAT
WE CAN HELP THEM EXPAND HERE IN NEW YORK SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY
$12 A SQUARE -- $12 A SQUARE FOOT IN NEW YORK AND GO OUT-OF-STATE TO
TRY AND GET IT FOR $5 A SQUARE FOOT WHEN THEY NEED BIG SPACES TO BUILD
TRUSSES.
MRS. GUNTHER: WELL, I -- WE HAVE -- WE HAVE
IDA'S IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND THAT'S WHAT IDA'S DO. THEY USUALLY TRY
TO HELP TO BRING JOBS AND COMPANIES INTO YOUR COMMUNITY AND THAT'S
WHY WE DEVELOPED THE IDA'S.
MS. GIGLIO: YEAH. SO RIVERHEAD BUILDING SUPPLY
EMPLOYES 600 PEOPLE, 500 IN NEW YORK AND 100 OUT-OF-STATE. SO IF
THEY BUILD THESE TRUSSES OUT-OF-STATE, BUT EVERYTHING ELSE THAT THEY DO IS
HERE ON LONG ISLAND, I MEAN, THEY'VE EXTENDED RAIL SPURS, THEY DO A LOT
TO TRY AND GET TRUCKS OFF THE ROADWAYS AND SHIP BY RAIL TRUCKS, THEY --
I'M JUST CURIOUS AS TO IS THERE ANYTHING IN YOUR BILL THAT SAYS THAT SEEING
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AS THEIR HEADQUARTERS IS IN NEW YORK AND 85 PERCENT OF THEIR BUSINESS
IS IN NEW YORK, IF THEY WERE TO MANUFACTURE SOMETHING SOMEWHERE
ELSE AND BRING IT IN, WOULD THAT GIVE THEM CREDIT TOWARDS, YOU KNOW,
THEIR IDA MANDATES OF THE SUPPLIES?
MRS. GUNTHER: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CREDITS?
MS. GIGLIO: SO WITH -- WITH THE IDA YOU'RE SAYING
THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF THE IDA INCENTIVES WOULD BE --
MRS. GUNTHER: NO, NO, NO, IT WOULDN'T GIVE -- NO,
IT WOULDN'T GIVE THEM ANY CREDITS.
MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. SO EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE
HEADQUARTERED HERE AND, YOU KNOW, 90 PERCENT OF THEIR BUSINESS IS HERE
IN NEW YORK THEY --
MRS. GUNTHER: THERE'S REALLY LIKE NO CREDITS OR
ANYTHING, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF, YOU KNOW, ANALYZING OR EXPLORING, YOU
KNOW, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF OUR -- OUR -- OUR MATERIALS ARE FROM NEW
YORK STATE AND IT'S JUST -- IT'S AN IMPORTANT ESTIMATE, YOU KNOW, THE
ESTIMATES ARE IMPORTANT TO SEE WHAT WE CAN DO IS BUILD BACK BETTER, AS
THEY CALL IT.
MS. GIGLIO: YEAH, YEAH, I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU
MORE. I JUST HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION.
MRS. GUNTHER: OKAY.
MS. GIGLIO: SO WOULD YOU THEN UNDERTAKE OVERALL
THE IDA TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE THE STAFFING THAT THEY NEED AND THE
MECHANISMS THAT THEY NEED IN ORDER DO THE CALCULATION TO MAKE SURE
THAT THEY ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THIS LAW?
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
MRS. GUNTHER: I -- I THINK THAT THE APPLICANTS
THEMSELVES WOULD REALLY FIGURE THAT OUT. YOU KNOW, I MEAN THEY
WOULD FIGURE THAT OUT. I DON'T THINK WE'RE MAKING ANY KIND OF, YOU
KNOW, WAY -- WE'RE NOT DOING THAT. SO REALLY, THE APPLICANT WOULD
FIGURE OUT THE PERCENTAGES.
MS. GIGLIO: SO THERE'S NO ENFORCEMENT?
MRS. GUNTHER: NO. THERE'S NO ENFORCEMENT AT
ALL.
MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. WELL, I SUPPORT THE IDEA OF
KEEPING JOBS HERE IN NEW YORK AND KEEPING MANUFACTURING HERE IN
NEW YORK. I DO AGREE THAT WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SUPPLY CHAIN
WHERE YOU'RE SIX MONTHS OUT FROM GETTING A GARAGE DOOR. SO AN
AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECT COULD POTENTIALLY BE HELD UP FOR SIX MONTHS
WHILE THEY'RE WAITING FOR A GARAGE DOOR BECAUSE THEY CAN'T CLOSE ON THE
UNIT. I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE EXCEPTIONS IN THE BILL AND MAYBE WE
COULD WORK ON THAT TOGETHER THAT IF THERE'S A PERIOD OF TIME WITH 30
DAYS OR YOU'RE GETTING AN ESTIMATE THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO
GET IN IT NEW YORK FOR SIX MONTHS, THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BUY
OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK STATE.
MRS. GUNTHER: THANK YOU. AND, YEAH, I'M SURE
WE COULD SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT.
MS. GIGLIO: THAT WOULD BE GREAT. THANK YOU VERY
MUCH. I'LL BE SUPPORTING THE BILL TODAY AND HOPING FOR REVISIONS
WORKING WITH MRS. GUNTHER, RESPECTFULLY. THANK YOU.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
READ THE LAST SECTION.
THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD
THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 6157-A. THIS IS A PARTY VOTE. ANY
MEMBER WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED AS AN EXCEPTION TO THE CONFERENCE
POSITION IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE
NUMBERS PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.
MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN
CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED, ALTHOUGH WE DO HAVE MEMBERS THAT
WILL BE SUPPORTING THIS AND SO THOSE WHO WISH TO VOTE YES PLEASE VOTE
ACCORDINGLY ON THE FLOOR OR BY CONTACTING THE MINORITY LEADER'S OFFICE.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER. THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GOING TO BE GENERALLY IN FAVOR OF
THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW WHO WOULD
CHOOSE TO BE AN EXCEPTION. THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO CONTACT THE
MAJORITY LEADER'S OFFICE AND THEIR VOTE WILL BE PROPERLY RECORDED.
THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)
MR. LAWLER TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.
MR. LAWLER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S INTENT IN THIS LEGISLATION. OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S
BEEN A PUSH IN RECENT YEARS TO GET IDA'S TO, YOU KNOW, FOCUS MORE
HEAVILY ON ENSURING THAT LOCAL LABOR ISSUES AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY
HERE THAT LOCAL SUPPLIES ARE USED IN FURTHERANCE OF A -- A PROJECT. I
THINK THE BIGGER QUESTION IS WHY WE EVEN HAVE IDA'S TO BEGIN WITH.
AND PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT NEW YORK STATE IS A HIGH TAX, HIGHLY
REGULATED STATE AND SO THE IDA'S ARE USED AS A VEHICLE TO TRY AND ENTICE
BUSINESSES TO INVEST IN OUR STATE, IN OUR COMMUNITIES. AND I THINK THE
USE OF TAXPAYER RESOURCES AT TIMES CAN BE BENEFICIAL AND CAN BE SMART.
OFTENTIMES I THINK WITH THE IDA'S THERE IS A LOT OF WASTE AND THERE IS
NOT ALWAYS NECESSARILY A LOT OF RETURN FOR THE TAXPAYERS. AND I THINK AS
A STRATEGY AND AS AN APPROACH TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT I THINK RATHER
THAN TRYING TO TINKER AROUND THE EDGES WITHIN THIS FRAMEWORK, I THINK
WE NEED TO FOCUS BIGGER AND BROADER AND HAVE A REAL OVERHAUL OF OUR
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT APPROACH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.
AND SO FOR THAT REASON, AND WHILE I APPRECIATE THE
SPONSOR'S INTENT, AND I THINK IT'S A NOBLE ONE, I THINK THE BIGGER ISSUE IS
REALLY TRYING TO GET OUR STATE AND MOVE IT IN A DIRECTION WHERE WE DON'T
HAVE TO USE TAXPAYER MONIES TO ENTICE PEOPLE TO COME HERE, OR MAYBE
IN THE CASE OF PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAMS STAY HERE, BUT THAT WE
ACTUALLY USE OUR TAXPAYER MONIES TO SERVE THE PUBLIC, AND THAT
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT OCCUR THROUGH OUR TAX AND SPENDING POLICIES
BY ACTUALLY MAKING IT MORE AFFORDABLE FOR PEOPLE TO DO BUSINESS IN THE
STATE OF NEW YORK. SO FOR THAT REASON, I WILL BE VOTING NO.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. LAWLER IN THE
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NEGATIVE.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.
(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)
THE BILL IS PASSED.
PAGE 22, CALENDAR NO. 215, THE CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A06501, CALENDAR NO.
215, SOLAGES. AN ACT TO AMEND THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, IN
RELATION TO CERTIFICATION OF CLASS ACTIONS IN CASES INVOLVING
GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR.
ON THE BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. THIS BILL ALLOWS CLASS
ACTION LAWSUITS TO BE BROUGHT AGAINST GOVERNMENTAL ENTITIES. UNDER
CURRENT LAW, YOU CAN'T HAVE A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST A GOVERNMENT
ENTITY. IF YOU HAVE DAMAGES THAT YOU'VE SUFFERED AS A RESULT OF ACTION
BY THE GOVERNMENT ENTITY, YOU CAN CERTAINLY SUE THE GOVERNMENT ENTITY.
IF YOU'RE SUING THE STATE OF NEW YORK, YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN A SPECIAL
COURT, THE COURT OF CLAIMS. AND UNDER CURRENT LAW, YOU CANNOT CREATE
A CLASS ACTION. AND THIS WOULD ALLOW A CLASS ACTION TO BE COMMENCED
AGAINST GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS KIND OF A CURIOUS CONCEPT THAT YOU COULD
GET A LARGE GROUP OF TAXPAYERS SUING GOVERNMENT FOR MONEY THAT WILL
BE PAID BY ALL THE REST OF THE TAXPAYERS. THAT'S JUST KIND OF A CURIOUS
SCENARIO.
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
THE REASON WHY WE HAVEN'T ALLOWED CLASS ACTION
LAWSUITS IS BECAUSE THERE'S A CURRENT REMEDY WHICH IS INDIVIDUAL
LAWSUIT. THE SHORTFALL ON -- OR A PROBLEM WITH INDIVIDUAL LAWSUITS IS IF
YOU'RE A PLAINTIFF AND YOU DIDN'T SUFFER A LOT OF DAMAGE, IT'S NOT WORTH
BRINGING A LAWSUIT AT ALL, WHEREAS WITH A CLASS ACTION YOU CAN GET A
WHOLE BUNCH OF PLAINTIFFS, NONE OF WHOM SUFFERED A LOT OF DAMAGES,
BUT TOGETHER IT ADDS UP TO A LOT OF MONEY WHICH JUSTIFIES THE LEGAL FEES
AND THE LITIGATION EXPENSES.
SO IF -- THERE WILL BE A FAST VOTE ON BEHALF OF THE
REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE, SO I GUESS WE GENERALLY FAVOR THIS, BUT IF
YOU'RE AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE WITH A SMALL
CLAIM CAN GET TOGETHER WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHERS AND SUE FOR A LOT
OF MONEY AGAINST A MUNICIPALITY, THIS IS A GOOD VOTE TO SUPPORT. ON
THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO MINIMIZE THE TAXES THAT YOUR LOCAL
MUNICIPALITY PAYS WHEN THERE'S JUST SMALL DAMAGES TO A NUMBER OF
PEOPLE, THIS WOULD BE A GOOD BILL TO OPPOSE. BUT IN GENERAL, IT WILL BE
A FAST VOTE. THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.
THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD
THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 6501. THIS IS A FAST ROLL CALL. ANY MEMBER
WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED IN THE NEGATIVE IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE
MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.
(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)
MR. GOODELL.
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MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. PLEASE RECORD MY
COLLEAGUE MR. DIPIETRO IN THE NEGATIVE. THANK YOU, SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED, THANK YOU.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.
(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)
THE BILL IS PASSED.
PAGE 28, CALENDAR NO. 293, THE CLERK WILL READ.
THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A03276, CALENDAR NO.
293, GUNTHER, JACKSON, LAVINE, JACOBSON, STECK, ZEBROWSKI, WOERNER.
AN ACT TO AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING THE
APPLICATION OF FAIL-FIRST OR STEP THERAPY PROTOCOLS TO COVERAGE FOR THE
DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT OF MENTAL HEALTH CONDITIONS.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR.
ON THE BILL, PLEASE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.
GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: SO THIS BILL WOULD PROHIBIT THE
APPLICATION OF ANY FAIL-FIRST OR STEP THERAPY PROTOCOLS THAT ARE INVOLVED
IN DRUG TREATMENT FOR INDIVIDUAL CASES. AND BASICALLY WHAT STEP
THERAPY MEANS IS THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANY REQUIRES YOU TO GO
THROUGH A CERTAIN PROTOCOL STARTING OUT WITH DRUGS THAT ARE TYPICALLY
BEEN AROUND THE LONGEST PERIOD OF TIME WITH LOWER COSTS, TYPICALLY
OFTEN GENERIC DRUGS, AND THEN ONLY IF THOSE DRUGS DON'T WORK ARE YOU
AUTHORIZED BY THE INSURANCE COMPANY TO USE NEWER AND MORE
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NYS ASSEMBLY APRIL 5, 2022
EXPENSIVE DRUGS. AND SO THOSE WHO SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION LIKE THE
MEDICAL SOCIETY WANTS TO HAVE THE FREEDOM TO PRESCRIBE THE LATEST
DRUGS REGARDLESS OF COST, OF COURSE, AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, NOT
SURPRISINGLY, OPPOSE THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO KEEP
THEIR COSTS DOWN. AND SO THE MEDICAL SOCIETY SAYS NEW YORK STATE
HAS ENACTED MEASURES THAT SET FORTH STATUTORY CRITERIA WHEN A HEALTH
PLAN IS REQUIRED TO OVERRIDE A STEP THERAPY PROTOCOL BUT, IN PRACTICE,
THOSE EXCEPTIONS SET UP A SIGNIFICANT ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN FOR
PHYSICIANS. AND SO THEY WANT MORE FLEXIBILITY TO PRESCRIBE THE LATEST
AND, IN THEIR OPINION, GREATEST DRUGS.
THE NEW YORK HEALTH PLAN ASSOCIATION, ON THE OTHER
HAND, POINTS OUT THAT STEP THERAPY PROTOCOLS USUALLY START WITH A
MEDICATION THAT'S BEEN AVAILABLE FOR THE LONGEST PERIOD OF TIME WITH
KNOWN RISKS AND OUTCOME BEFORE MOVING ONTO NEWER, RISKIER OR
EXPERIMENTAL DRUGS. THEY ALSO NOTE THAT PROHIBITING STEP THERAPY
INCREASES RISK PATIENTS AND LIMIT PLANS' ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE BETTER PRICES
FOR NEWER AND EXPERIMENTAL TREATMENT DRUGS, INCREASING COSTS FOR
EVERYONE.
SO THIS WILL BE A FAST VOTE, ALTHOUGH I KNOW A NUMBER
OF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE VOTED NO IN COMMITTEE BECAUSE THEY RECOGNIZE
THE IMPORTANCE OF TRYING TO KEEP INSURANCE COSTS AS LOW AS POSSIBLE AND
MINIMIZING RISKS FOR PATIENTS. THERE ARE COLLEAGUES OF MINE THAT VOTED
YES IN COMMITTEE WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT HOPEFULLY PHYSICIANS
WILL EXERCISE GREAT JUDGMENT AND DISCRETION IN PRESCRIBING THE LATEST
AND, PERHAPS, MORE EXPENSIVE MEDICATIONS. SO THAT'S KIND OF WHERE
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MY CAUCUS IS GOING TO BE SPLIT, BUT FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS VOTE, WE'LL
START WITH A FAST VOTE AND HOPE THAT I DIDN'T CALL IT WRONG. THANK YOU,
SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.
READ THE LAST SECTION.
THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD
THE VOTE ON ASSEMBLY PRINT 3276. THIS IS A FAST ROLL CALL. ANY MEMBER
WHO WISHES TO BE RECORDED IN THE NEGATIVE IS REMINDED TO CONTACT THE
MAJORITY OR MINORITY LEADER AT THE NUMBERS PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED.
(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)
MRS. GUNTHER TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.
MRS. GUNTHER: THANK YOU. FAIL-FIRST OR STEP
THERAPY PROTOCOLS IMPOSED BY INSURERS OBLIGATE PATIENTS TO TRY A LESS
COSTLY TREATMENT THAT MIGHT BE PRESCRIBED BY THE PROVIDER. AND
FAIL-FIRST SUCCESS TO WAIT MONTHS FOR APPROVAL TO SWITCH TO ANOTHER
OPTION AFTER FAILING WITH A GIVEN DRUG OR TO SUFFER ADVERSE AFFECTS FROM
A DRUG THEY HAD NOT WANTED TO TAKE. THERE IS ONLY MIXED EVIDENCE AND
PUBLISHED STUDIES ON THE IMPACT OF STEP THERAPY POLICIES, AND SOME
HAVE FOUND THAT SUCH POLICIES ACTUALLY INCREASED TOTAL UTILIZATION COST
OVER THE LONG RUN BECAUSE OF INCREASED INPATIENT ADMISSIONS AND
EMERGENCY ROOM DIVISION -- EMERGENCY ROOM VISITS. THESE POLICIES
ARE PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS IN A MENTAL HEALTH SPACE WHERE THEY CAN BE
ASSOCIATED WITH A HIGHER RISK OF DISCONTINUITY IN MEDICATION USED AND
INCREASED LIKELIHOOD OF HOMELESSNESS AND, OF COURSE, INCARCERATION. SO
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I VOTE IN THE POSITIVE FOR THIS BILL. I SHOULD HAVE SAID THIS GREAT BILL.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MRS.
GUNTHER, IN THE POSITIVE.
MR. GOODELL.
MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. PLEASE RECORD MR.
DIPIETRO IN THE NEGATIVE; HE'S OPPOSED TO BEING ON DRUGS. THANK YOU,
SIR.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SO NOTED.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.
(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)
THE BILL IS PASSED.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, DO YOU
HAVE ANY FURTHER HOUSEKEEPING OR RESOLUTIONS?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WE HAVE A FEW FINE
RESOLUTIONS, WE'LL TAKE THEM UP WITH ONE VOTE.
ON THE RESOLUTIONS, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING
AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTIONS ARE ADOPTED.
(WHEREUPON, ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NOS. 727-729
WERE UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED.)
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.
SPEAKER. ON BEHALF OF MEMBER HUNTER, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
MAJORITY COLLEAGUES UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A 6 P.M. HEARING IN
HEARING ROOM B, THERE IS A 6 P.M. CONFERENCE WITH THE SPEAKER; 6
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P.M., LET'S BE ON TIME COLLEAGUES, PLEASE.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MAJORITY, 6 P.M.
CONFERENCE, HEARING ROOM B.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, I NOW
MOVE THAT THE ASSEMBLY STAND ADJOURNED AND THAT WE RECONVENE AT 10
A.M., WEDNESDAY, APRIL THE 6TH, TOMORROW BEING A SESSION DAY.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: DID YOU SAY 10 A.M.,
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES?
MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: TEN A.M., SIR, 10 A.M.
SHARP.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A GLORIOUS TIME.
THE ASSEMBLY STANDS ADJOURNED.
(WHEREUPON, AT 3:18 P.M., THE ASSEMBLY STOOD
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6TH AT 10:00 A.M., WEDNESDAY BEING
A SESSION DAY.)
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