WEDNESDAY, JUNE 5, 2024 11:07 A.M.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE HOUSE WILL COME

TO ORDER.

IN THE ABSENCE OF CLERGY, LET US PAUSE FOR A MOMENT OF

SILENCE.

(WHEREUPON, A MOMENT OF SILENCE WAS OBSERVED.)

VISITORS ARE INVITED TO JOIN THE MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE

OF ALLEGIANCE.

(WHEREUPON, ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY LED VISITORS AND

MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.)

A QUORUM BEING PRESENT, THE CLERK WILL READ THE

JOURNAL OF TUESDAY, JUNE THE 4TH.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, I MOVE TO

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DISPENSE WITH THE FURTHER READING OF THE JOURNAL OF TUESDAY, JUNE THE

4TH, AND THAT THE SAME STAND APPROVED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO

ORDERED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, SIR. I WOULD

LIKE TO SHARE A QUOTE WITH THOSE IN THE CHAMBERS WITH US TODAY.

ACTUALLY, OUR COLLEAGUE, MARY BETH WALSH, GAVE ME A BOOK EARLIER THIS

WEEK THAT WAS WRITTEN BY HER SON AND, YOU KNOW, MARY BETH HAS

TALKED ABOUT HER SON VERY DEARLY ON THIS FLOOR MANY A TIME, AND I

ALMOST FEEL LIKE I KNOW THE CHALLENGES HE HAD JUST GOING THROUGH LIFE,

BUT GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE HE COULD JUST LITERALLY CLIMB TOWERS ALL

OVER ADIRONDACK PARK WAS A VERY INSPIRING THING AND HE WROTE THIS

BOOK. AND INSIDE THIS BOOK THERE WAS A QUOTE FROM ASHLEY RICE,

ACTUALLY IT'S A POEM, AND IT TOUCHED ME, AND I'M PRETTY SURE IT TOUCHED

HER SON, TOO, THAT'S WHY HE PUT IT IN HIS BOOK. AND ASHLEY'S WORDS FOR

US TODAY, WHEN THE TASK AT HAND IS A MOUNTAIN IN FRONT OF YOU, IT MAY

SEEM HARD TO CLIMB. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO CLIMB IT ALL AT ONCE - JUST

ONE STEP AT A TIME. TAKE ONE SMALL STEP, ONE SMALL STEP, AND ANOTHER,

AND YOU'LL FIND THE TASK AT HAND THAT WAS A MOUNTAIN IN FRONT OF YOU IS

A MOUNTAIN THAT YOU'VE CLIMBED. AGAIN, THESE WORDS BY ASHLEY, AND IT

WAS IN THE FOREWORD OF TERRY HYNES BOOK THAT HE WROTE CALLED

CLIMBING NEW HEIGHTS [SIC]. THOSE ARE ASHLEY'S WORDS TODAY, SO

THANK YOU, MARY BETH, FOR SHARING.

(APPLAUSE)

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. SPEAKER, MEMBERS HAVE ON THEIR DESK A MAIN

CALENDAR AND A DEBATE LIST. WE'RE GOING TO BE CALLING FOR THE FOLLOWING

COMMITTEES OFF THE FLOOR: WAYS AND MEANS, AND RULES. THESE

COMMITTEES ARE GOING TO PRODUCE AN A-CALENDAR, WHICH WE WILL TAKE

UP TODAY. AFTER YOU HAVE DONE ANY HOUSEKEEPING AND/OR

INTRODUCTIONS, WE'RE GOING TO BEGIN TO TAKE UP RULES REPORT NO. 341 BY

MR. ANDERSON ON CONSENT. WE WILL THEN WORK OFF THE DEBATE LIST,

BEGINNING WITH THE FOLLOWING BILLS -- BY THE WAY, MR. SPEAKER, ALL

THESE BILLS ARE GOING TO BE RULES REPORT BILLS, AND WE'RE GOING TO START

WITH 148 BY MR. OTIS; 157 BY MS. REYES; 159 BY MS. BICHOTTE

HERMELYN; 189 BY MS. FAHY; 197 BY MR. BURDICK; 222 BY MS.

SHIMSKY; 226 BY MR. BRONSON; 241 BY MR. ZEBROWSKI; 246 BY MR.

LAVINE; AND 254 BY MS. FAHY. THERE PROBABLY WILL BE A NEED TO

ANNOUNCE ADDITIONAL FLOOR ACTIVITY AT SOME POINT, MR. SPEAKER. WHEN

THAT COMES UP, I'LL BE HAPPY TO DO SO. AND ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE

ANOTHER VERY LONG DAY AHEAD OF US. I APPRECIATE PATIENCE AND

COOPERATION OF SO FAR THIS WEEK, AND I FULLY ANTICIPATE THAT WE'LL HAVE

THE SAME COOPERATION TODAY AS WELL.

THAT IS WHERE WE'RE AT, MR. SPEAKER. IF YOU HAVE

INTRODUCTIONS OR HOUSEKEEPING, NOW WOULD BE A GREAT TIME.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WELL, MRS.

PEOPLES-STOKES, TAKE NOTE OF THE -- JUNE THE 4TH [SIC], THERE ARE NO

INTRODUCTIONS AND NO HOUSEKEEPING.

(APPLAUSE)

AND JOY FILLS THE CHAMBER.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, WOULD YOU

ASK THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE TO GO TO THE SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE

ROOM IMMEDIATELY, PLEASE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WAYS AND MEANS,

SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE ROOM IMMEDIATELY.

(PAUSE)

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: PAGE 19, RULES

REPORT NO. 341, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09099, RULES REPORT

NO. 341, ANDERSON, DAVILA, ARDILA, WEPRIN, BICHOTTE HERMELYN,

CHANDLER-WATERMAN, STECK, OTIS, BURDICK, SHRESTHA, HYNDMAN,

FITZPATRICK, COLTON, SEAWRIGHT, ZINERMAN, DAIS, TAYLOR. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING A CAPTIVE

INSURANCE PROGRAM FOR COMMUTER VANS, BLACK CARS, AMBULETTES AND

PARATRANSIT VEHICLES, AND SMALL SCHOOL BUSES.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PAGE 8, RULES REPORT NO. 148, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A02729, RULES REPORT

NO. 148, OTIS, SEAWRIGHT, SIMON, STIRPE, SAYEGH. AN ACT TO AMEND THE

REAL PROPERTY LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING LANDLORDS TO MITIGATE

DAMAGES WHEN COMMERCIAL TENANTS VACATE PREMISES IN VIOLATION OF THE

TERMS OF THE LEASE.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: AN EXPLANATION HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. OTIS: THANK YOU, MR. GOODELL. THIS

LEGISLATION DEALS WITH THE LEGAL CONCEPT OF THE DUTY TO MITIGATE

DAMAGES IN REAL ESTATE SITUATIONS. BEFORE 1995, IT WAS THE LAW IN NEW

YORK AND IT'S LAW THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE COUNTRY TODAY THAT LANDLORDS

HAVE A DUTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES IN A CASE WHERE A TENANT LEAVES IN THE

MIDDLE OF A LEASE, AND THAT MITIGATION OF DAMAGES IS AN ATTEMPT, A

REASONABLE ATTEMPT TO TRY AND RE-LEASE THE APARTMENT TO MITIGATE THOSE

DAMAGES.

IN 1995, A COURT OF APPEALS DECISION TOOK AWAY THAT

RESPONSIBILITY FOR COMMERCIAL LEASES AND RESIDENTIAL LEASES, AND IN

2019 WE RESTORED THAT DUTY FOR RESIDENTIAL LEASES. THIS BILL TAKES THE

NEXT STEP AND BRINGS THAT DUTY BACK FOR THE SITUATION OF COMMERCIAL

LEASES. AND I WILL SAY THAT THE -- THE LANGUAGE IN THE EXISTING LAW THAT

EXISTS FOR RESIDENTIAL LEASES GIVES GREAT DEFERENCE TO THE JUDGE IN TERMS

OF FLEXIBILITY IN TERMS OF HOW THIS HAPPENS, BUT THE LAW READS, THE

LANDLORD SHALL, IN GOOD FAITH AND ACCORDING TO THE LANDLORD'S RESOURCES

AND ABILITIES TAKE REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY ACTIONS TO RENT THE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PREMISES AT FAIR MARKET VALUE, OR THE AGREED UPON RATE DURING THE TERM

OF THE TENANCY. AND SO I EMPHASIZE THE LANGUAGE AND THE LACK OF THIS

BEING THAT HIGH OF A BURDEN ON LANDLORDS, THEY NEED TO MAKE A

REASONABLE EFFORT, NOT KNOCK THEMSELVES OUT IF THEY CAN'T RE-LEASE THE

PROPERTY, THERE ISN'T A PENALTY OR REAL BURDEN IF THEY MAKE THOSE EFFORTS.

I'D ALSO SAY THAT FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW, IT'S

GOOD TO HAVE THIS PROVISION BECAUSE IF YOU ARE IN A COMMERCIAL SETTING

AND THERE IS A VACANT SPACE NEXT TO YOU, ANOTHER RETAIL SETTING, YOU DON'T

WANT THAT TO STAY OPEN UNNECESSARILY. AND WITHOUT THIS CHANGE IN LAW,

THERE'S NO REAL INCENTIVE FOR A LANDLORD TO RELEASE THE PROPERTY IF THEY'RE

STILL GETTING RENT FROM THE TENANT WHO LEFT. I'D ALSO SAY AT THIS MOMENT,

MR. GOODELL, YOU AND I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS BILL AND OTHER BILLS THAT

RELATE TO CONTRACTS AND COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE IN PAST YEARS, AND I

KNOW YOU ARE LEAVING US IN THIS SECTION -- THIS SESSION, UNFORTUNATELY

THESE DISCUSSIONS HAVE BEEN I THINK CREDIT-WORTHY FOR LAW SCHOOL

COURSE CREDIT I THINK, GOOD DISCUSSION AND YOU -- I WANT TO COMPLIMENT

YOUR GREAT SKILL AT DEBATING A WIDE VARIETY OF ISSUES EVERY DAY IN THIS

LEGISLATURE, AND WE THANK YOU FOR THAT. I THINK IN THE AREA, MY SENSES

IS AT IT RELATES TO COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE, YOU REALLY DO KNOW WHAT

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. SO I APPRECIATE THE DIALOGUE AND ANY -- ANY

FURTHER QUESTIONS, BUT THAT'S THE -- THE EXPLANATION AND AGAIN, THANK YOU

FOR WHAT YOU GIVE TO THIS HOUSE IN TERMS OF INTELLIGENT QUESTIONS AND

DISCUSSION ON A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MR. OTIS: OF COURSE.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: HE -- THE SPONSOR

YIELDS.

MR. GOODELL: MR. OTIS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR

THOSE KIND WORDS. I JUST HAD TO ELIMINATE HALF OF MY NASTY COMMENTS

AND QUESTIONS.

(LAUGHTER)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, THAT WAS VERY KIND. AND

YOU'RE RIGHT, MOST OF MY PRACTICE HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON REAL ESTATE THE

LAST 40 YEARS AND IT DOES INCLUDE COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE. AND TYPICALLY

ON A COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE, FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY A STORE THAT'S GOING

INTO A MALL, ALL THE PARTIES ARE TYPICALLY REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEYS,

WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN A RESIDENTIAL REAL ESTATE AGREEMENT. IS

THERE ANY REASON WHY UNDER CURRENT LAW THOSE PARTIES THAT ARE

REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEYS COULDN'T PUT THIS IN THE NEGOTIATED LEASE?

MR. OTIS: WELL, SO -- AND IN OTHER YEARS YOU'VE

ASKED THE QUESTION IF THERE WAS A LIQUIDATED DAMAGES CLAUSE WOULD THAT

PREEMPT THIS, AND I THINK THAT THE CORRECT LEGAL ANSWER BASED UPON THE

EXISTING STATUTE IS THAT -- THAT IF THE LIQUIDATED DAMAGE CLAUSE DID NOT

VIOLATE THE LANGUAGE OF THAT PROVISION YOU PROBABLY COULD HAVE IT, BUT

IF IT DID, YOU COULD NOT. SO IT WOULD BE A FACT-SPECIFIC JUDGMENT THAT

THE JUDGE IN THAT CASE WOULD HOPEFULLY MAKE A RATIONAL JUDGMENT ON.

MR. GOODELL: BUT CERTAINLY UNDER CURRENT LAW,

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE PARTIES COULD NEGOTIATE AN OBLIGATION ON THE PART OF THE LANDLORD TO

RE-RENT THE PROPERTY AND MITIGATE DAMAGES, THEY COULD PUT THAT RIGHT IN

LEASE, CORRECT?

MR. OTIS: OR -- OR THEY COULD DO THAT UNILATERALLY.

MR. GOODELL: CERTAINLY.

MR. OTIS: EVEN IF IT WASN'T IN THE LEASE, A LANDLORD

HAS THE ABILITY TO -- TO DO THAT, THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, UNDER CURRENT LAW, THE DUTY

OF A PARTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES IS RAISED AS AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE, IN

OTHER WORDS, YOU'VE BEEN DAMAGED, SOMEBODY ELSE BREACHES A

CONTRACT, YOU SUE THEM FOR DAMAGES AND THE OTHER SIDE SAYS, WELL, IF

YOU HAD TAKEN THESE VARIOUS STEPS, YOU WOULD HAVE REDUCED THE

AMOUNT I OWE YOU IN DAMAGES, BUT IT'S THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON THE PARTY

WHO'S TRYING TO AVOID PAYING THOSE DAMAGES FOR THEIR OWN BREACH.

THEY BREACHED IT, THEY HAVE THE BURDEN TO PROVE. THIS CHANGES IT,

RIGHT, AND PUTS THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON ESTABLISHING MITIGATION ON THE

LANDLORD WHO DID NOTHING WRONG, CORRECT?

MR. OTIS: WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE 2019 LAW

CHANGED THAT BURDEN IN RESIDENTIAL LEASES, AND TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT

STATUTE ALSO GIVES GREAT DEFERENCE TO JUDGES TO MEDIATE THESE SITUATIONS,

THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION WOULD BE PARTIALLY YES, BUT WITH SOME

FLEXIBILITY.

MR. GOODELL: WELL, IN FACT, THE ACTUAL STATUTORY

LANGUAGE WE'RE LOOKING AT TODAY SAYS, AND I QUOTE ON LINE 17, "THE

BURDEN OF PROOF SHALL BE ON THE PARTY SEEKING TO RECOVER DAMAGES."

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. OTIS: WELL -- AND SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT

LAW CHANGED THE BURDEN OF PROOF, THE 2019 LAW DID, BUT THE -- BUT THE --

THIS SECTION HAS ALSO BEEN INTERPRETED AS GIVING THE JUDGE A BROAD

FLEXIBILITY IN MEDIATING THESE SITUATIONS.

MR. GOODELL: SO JUST SO EVERYONE IS CLEAR, IN THE

COMMERCIAL CONTEXT, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS CURRENTLY ON THE PARTY THAT

BREACHES THE AGREEMENT TO SHOW THAT THE LANDLORD SHOULD HAVE OR COULD

HAVE MITIGATED DAMAGES. IF WE PASS THIS BILL TODAY, THAT BURDEN OF

PROOF SHIFTS FROM THE PERSON WHO BREACHED THE CONTRACT TO THE

COMMERCIAL LANDLORD, CORRECT?

MR. OTIS: TO THE EXTENT THAT THE MINIMAL,

REASONABLE, GOOD FAITH EFFORTS ARE FOLLOWED THROUGH, YES, IT SHIFTS THE

BURDEN, BUT IT'S NOT THAT HIGH OF A BURDEN. IT IS AN EASY THING FOR A

LANDLORD TO DO, TRADITIONAL AND CUSTOMARY THINGS TO SEE IF THEY CAN LIST

THE PROPERTY AND GET SOMEBODY INTO THAT SPACE. SO I THINK THAT THE WAY

YOU PRESENT IT, IT IS NOT CREATING A NEW, STARK REALITY. IT'S SOME

DEFERENCE IN TERMS OF A BURDEN, BUT IT'S A BURDEN THAT'S EASILY SATISFIED.

MR. GOODELL: BUT IF IT'S THAT EASY, THEN WHY

DOESN'T THE LANDLORD AND THE TENANT -- WHY DOESN'T THE TENANT SIMPLY

NEGOTIATE IN THE COMMERCIAL LEASE IN THE FIRST PLACE? I MEAN, ALL THESE

TERMS AND CONDITIONS ARE SUBJECT TO NEGOTIATION, BOTH PARTIES ARE FULLY

REPRESENTED, THERE'S TYPICALLY THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AT

RISK. WHY DO WE AS THE STATE LEGISLATURE HAVE TO OVERRIDE THE

COMPETITIVE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN THOSE WELL-REPRESENTED PARTIES?

MR. OTIS: WELL, WE, IN -- IN THIS CONTEXT AND OTHER

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CONTEXTS SOMETIMES AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY MAKE THAT JUDGMENT.

IN THIS SECTION OF LAW, WE MADE THAT JUDGMENT IN 2019. THE BILL

PROPOSED HERE EXTENDS THAT PRINCIPAL TO COMMERCIAL LEASES. AND IT,

AGAIN, I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER BENEFIT THERE TO AVOID UNNECESSARILY

EMPTY STOREFRONTS, WHICH BENEFITS OTHER BUSINESSES, THAT IS A -- A REASON

WHY THIS IS A GOOD PIECE OF LEGISLATION TO ENACT.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, OF COURSE IF YOU WALK INTO A

MALL, AS AN EXAMPLE, THOSE ARE ALL COMMERCIAL LEASES, IN THIS CASE RETAIL

LEASES. YOU NOTE THAT A LOT OF THE STORES HAVE VERY SUBSTANTIAL AND

EXPENSIVE, UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS. I MEAN, YOU MIGHT PASS A SPORTING

GOODS STORE THAT HAS, YOU KNOW, A ROCK WALL ON IT, FOR EXAMPLE, OR THE

SHOE STORE WITH A SWISH OR ALL THOSE VERY CUSTOMIZED, AND SOMETIMES

VERY EXPENSIVE MODIFICATIONS TO THE PROPERTY. UNDER THIS LAW,

WOULDN'T THE LANDLORD BE SUBJECT TO A LOSS OF RENTAL IF THEY WERE UNABLE

OR UNWILLING TO MAKE THOSE INVESTMENTS?

MR. OTIS: I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE

-- THE STATUTE HAS REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY ACTIONS. SO THAT IN THE

MALL SITUATION WHERE THERE MAY BE PARTICULAR NEEDS IN THAT SPACE AND

YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO NECESSARILY PUT TWO SHOE STORES RIGHT NEXT TO EACH

OTHER, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS THAT ARE PARTICULAR AND GIVEN THE DISCRETION

GIVEN TO JUDGES IN THIS CASE -- IN THESE CASES, THE LANDLORD WOULD BE

GIVEN THE KIND OF DISCRETION TO MAKE INTELLIGENT BUSINESS JUDGMENTS FOR

EACH OF THOSE LOCATIONS.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, WE TALKED JUST BRIEFLY ABOUT

LIQUIDATED DAMAGES. MANY TIMES IN A CONTRACT THERE'LL BE A LIQUIDATED

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DAMAGE CLAUSE, THE PARTIES RECOGNIZE THEY MAY NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE

WHAT THE DAMAGES WILL BE, BUT THEY HAVE A REASONABLE RANGE. SO THEY

AGREE IN ADVANCE THAT IF ONE PARTY BREACHES, THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGES

WILL BE A CERTAIN AMOUNT. DOES THIS OVERRIDE THAT?

MR. OTIS: WELL, TO THE EXTENT IT VIOLATES THE -- THE

PUBLIC POLICY SECTION OF THE EXISTING LAW, IT WOULD BE, AS I SAID EARLIER,

A FACT-BASED DETERMINATION DEPENDENT UPON THE NATURE OF HOW THOSE

LIQUIDATED DAMAGES WERE -- WERE DRAFTED.

MR. GOODELL: MANY COMMERCIAL LEASES AUTHORIZE

THE TENANT TO SUBLEASE, AND THERE'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS, OF COURSE.

DOES THIS LAW REQUIRE A TENANT WHO IS BREACHING THE LEASE THEMSELVES

TO ENGAGE IN A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO SUBLEASE IT IN AN EFFORT TO MITIGATE

DAMAGES THAT OCCUR TO THE LANDLORD CAUSED BY THE TENANT'S BREACH?

MR. OTIS: WELL, THE -- THE -- I DON'T THINK THAT THE

LAW COVERS THAT SITUATION PRECISELY, BUT THAT AGAIN, THE JUDGE WOULD BE

MAKING REASONABLE JUDGMENTS ABOUT THE LANDLORD'S SITUATION HERE AND

THE -- AS IT RELATES TO SUBLEASES, INITIAL -- THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY

SOMETIMES HAS LIMITATIONS ON SUBLEASES, AS WELL, EVEN IF THEY ALLOW

THEM, THERE'S USUALLY RESTRICTIONS.

MR. GOODELL: THOSE RESTRICTIONS OF COURSE ARE

QUITE COMMON IN MALL CONTEXT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT THE MALL TO BE

FILLED WITH COMPETITORS NEXT TO EACH OTHER, RIGHT? AND SO TYPICALLY IN A

MALL LEASE NEGOTIATION, THERE'S AN AGREEMENT AMONGST ALL THE TENANTS

OVER WHO CAN BE IN AND WHO CAN'T BE IN, IF YOU WILL, FOR ALL THOSE

REASONS. ARE THOSE FACTORS, THOSE RESTRICTIONS THAT APPLY ALSO AVAILABLE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TO THE COMMERCIAL LANDLORD TO SAY, THE REASON I COULDN'T RENT IT TO

ANOTHER FAST FOOD BUSINESS IS BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE AGREEMENTS WITH

OTHER TENANTS THAT THERE'D ONLY BE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF FAST FOOD

RESTAURANTS, AS AN EXAMPLE.

MR. OTIS: YES, I THINK I SPOKE TO THAT IN AN EARLIER

ANSWER, AS WELL, UNDER THE REASONABLE LANGUAGE IN THE LAW.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I APPRECIATE

YOUR COMMENTS.

SIR, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: ON THE BILL, MR.

GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: AND THANK YOU, MR. OTIS.

MR. OTIS: THANK YOU, MR. GOODELL. ALWAYS A

PLEASURE.

MR. GOODELL: WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH A

RESIDENTIAL CONTEXT, IT'S NOT -- IT'S ACTUALLY UNUSUAL FOR A RESIDENTIAL

TENANT TO HAVE A -- A LAWYER INVOLVED IN THE LEASE NEGOTIATIONS, AND

TYPICALLY THE LEASE AGREEMENT THAT THE TENANT GETS IS A PRETTY STANDARD

LEASE, OFTEN IT'S A PREPRINTED FORM. AND WHEN THE TENANT LEAVES IN A

RESIDENTIAL CONTEXT, VERY RARELY DOES A LANDLORD NEED TO DO ANYTHING

UNIQUE OR SPECIAL TO THE SPACE IN ORDER TO RE-RENT IT. I MEAN, THEY MIGHT

HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP, THEY MIGHT HAVE TO REPAINT IT. IN NEW YORK CITY

THEY MIGHT HAVE TO DO LEAD ABATEMENT THAT COSTS MORE THAN THE VALUE OF

THE APARTMENT, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING THERE'S NOT A LOT THAT THE LANDLORD

HAS TO DO.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE SITUATION IN A COMMERCIAL CONTEXT IS VERY

DIFFERENT. IN A COMMERCIAL CONTEXT, BOTH PARTIES ARE TYPICALLY

REPRESENTED BY LAWYERS, EXPERIENCED LAWYERS. AND THOSE LEASES ARE

TYPICALLY VERY CUSTOM. AND DURING THAT LEASE NEGOTIATION, THE PARTIES

ARE CERTAINLY CAPABLE OF NEGOTIATING THAT THE LANDLORD WILL TRY TO RE-RENT,

THAT'S WHAT THEY CAN DO NOW. AND IF THE LANDLORD PUSHES BACK AND SAYS

NO, I WON'T DO IT, IT'S REFLECTED IN THE LEASE RATE. IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE

LANDLORD HAS THE DUTY TO MITIGATE, THE RENT'S GOING TO BE HIGHER BECAUSE

THE LANDLORD IS TAKING ON MORE RISK. AND SO WE CAN'T STEP -- WE CAN'T

AND SHOULDN'T STEP IN THE MIDDLE AND REWRITE THE LEASE AGREEMENTS THAT

HAVE BEEN CAREFULLY NEGOTIATED WITH LAWYERS BETWEEN LARGE COMPANIES

TO CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS. AS WE MENTIONED,

THESE LEASE AGREEMENTS OFTEN CONTAIN A LIQUIDATED DAMAGE CLAUSE AND

THEY SAY, LOOK, IF THE TENANT BREACHES, DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH TIME

WAS LEFT ON THE LEASE, THE TENANT AGREES IN ADVANCE TO PAY A CERTAIN

AMOUNT. THAT HELPS BOTH THE TENANT AND THE LANDLORD. IT LIMITS THE

LIABILITY TO THE TENANT TO AN AMOUNT THEY KNOW, AND IT HELPS THE

LANDLORD KNOW WHAT THEIR REVENUE STREAM IS GOING TO BE.

NOW, UNLIKE A RESIDENTIAL UNIT, ALMOST ALL THESE LARGE

COMMERCIAL PROJECTS HAVE BANK FINANCING, AND THAT BANK FINANCING IS

SECURED IN LARGE PART BY THE COMMERCIAL LEASES THEMSELVES. AND SO

WHEN A LARGE DEVELOPER GOES TO A BANK AND THEY SAY, I NEED, YOU KNOW,

SEVERAL MILLION DOLLARS TO BUILD THIS MALL, THE BANK SAYS, SHOW ME YOUR

LEASE AGREEMENTS SO THAT I KNOW YOU WILL HAVE ENOUGH REVENUE TO

COVER THE MORTGAGE. WHAT THIS LAW DOES IS REWRITES ALL THOSE LEASE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AGREEMENTS, AND INSTEAD OF SAYING THAT THE TENANT HAS TO PAY LIQUIDATED

DAMAGES SO THE BANK LOAN CAN BE PAID, IT PUTS A BURDEN ON THE LANDLORD

WHO MAY OR MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO RE-RENT IT. AND THAT RAISES THE RISK TO

BANKS AND MAY ACTUALLY JEOPARDIZE THE BANK FINANCING, OR BE REFLECTED

IN HIGHER INTEREST RATE.

THIS IS A COMPLEX AREA, THE PARTIES ARE WELL

REPRESENTED. THERE'S A LOT OF RAMIFICATIONS THAT GO WAY BEYOND WHAT

THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT AND DEALS WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL ABILITY OF A

COMMERCIAL COMPANY TO BUILD OUT THE SPACE TO MEET THE NEEDS OF A

PARTICULAR TENANT. IF YOU ARE LIKE ME AND ROUTINELY STOP BY, SAY, AUTO

ZONE FOR PARTS, THAT'S ALMOST A WEEKLY EVENT FOR ME, YOU'LL KNOW,

THERE'S A GIANT SIGN THAT SAYS, AUTO ZONE, YOU'LL KNOW THE WAY IT'S SET

UP AND THE WAY THE STORAGE IS AND THE WAY THE SHELVING IS IS ALL UNIQUE,

AND THE LANDLORD OFTEN PARTICIPATES IN THOSE RENOVATIONS. AND IF THAT

COMPANY PULLS THAT ONE STORE OUT, IT'S THE LANDLORD THAT HAS TO CLEAN IT

ALL UP AND TAKE IT OUT, AND THEY INCUR THOSE COSTS. UNDER CURRENT LAW,

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE TENANT WHO VIOLATED THE LEASE TO SAY THAT

THE LANDLORD SHOULD HAVE TAKEN MORE APPROPRIATE STEPS TO REDUCE THE

LOSS. THIS CHANGES IT SO THAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS NOT ON A PERSON

WHO BREACHED THE CONTRACT, IT'S NOT ON THE PERSON WHO VIOLATED THE

CONTRACT, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE INNOCENT LANDLORD.

MY FRIENDS, WE IN ALBANY SHOULD NOT PRETEND, AND I'M

NOT PRETENDING, THAT WE KNOW MORE THAN ALL THE HIGHLY REPRESENTED

PARTIES WHO ARE NEGOTIATING THESE CONTRACTS IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS

OF UNIQUE SITUATIONS AND HAVE US STEP IN AND REWRITE THEIR CONTRACTS.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND IF WE DO, PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, IT WILL LIKELY CHANGE ALL THE LEASE

NEGOTIATIONS, THE MORTGAGE INTEREST RATE, THE ABILITY TO BORROW THE

MONEY, THE RENT THAT'S CHARGED, AND ALL THOSE UNDERLYING FINANCIAL

FACTORS THAT THEY KNOW BETTER THAN WE DO AND THAT'S WHY WE SHOULDN'T

CHANGE THIS.

AND FOR THOSE REASONS, THE LAST TIME WE HAD A VOTE ON

THIS, WE HAD 34 -- 48 NO VOTES, I BELIEVE, AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT

WE STILL LET COMMERCIAL ENTITIES NEGOTIATE THEIR OWN LEASES. THANK YOU,

SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MR. FLOOD.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD

FOR JUST A FEW QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MR. OTIS: OF COURSE.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU. SO MY COLLEAGUE JUST

POINTED OUT AGAIN ON LINE 17 THAT THE -- THE BURDEN OF PROOF SITS ON THE

LANDLORD ON THIS. SO IS IT SAFE TO PRESUME THAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON

FIGHTING THE FAIR MARKET VALUE OF THE PROPERTY COULD FALL ON THE

LANDLORD?

MR. OTIS: NO. THIS SECTION -- THE SECTION YOU'RE

READING FROM IS EXISTING LAW IN RESIDENTIAL LEASES SO JUDGES AND LAWYERS

ARE DEALING WITH HANDLING THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS PROVISION NOW,

AND WHAT WAS YOUR QUESTION AGAIN?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. FLOOD: SO IT SAYS IT'S GOING TO BE, BECAUSE YOU

HAD SAID IT HERE THAT THEY HAVE TO -- IN LINE 17 IT'S TO TERMINATE THE

PREVIOUS TENANT'S LEASE TO MITIGATE DAMAGES, OTHERWISE THE TENANTS --

SORRY. IF THE LANDLORD RENTS THE PREMISES AT FAIR MARKET VALUE OR AT A

RATE AGREED UPON, WHICHEVER IS LOWER. SO THAT WOULD MEAN EITHER THE

RATE THAT THE LEASE GAVE OR THE FAIR MARKET VALUE IF THAT FAIR MARKET

VALUE IS LOWER THAN THE AGREED UPON RATE.

MR. OTIS: YEAH.

MR. FLOOD: SO I'M ASSUMING IT WOULD BE UPON THE

LANDLORD TO DETERMINE WHAT THAT FAIR MARKET VALUE IS IF THAT BURDEN OF

PROOF IS ON THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?

MR. OTIS: ULTIMATELY IF IT'S LITIGATED, THIS IS EXISTING

LAW SO JUDGES ARE ALREADY REFEREEING THESE KINDS OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

THE WAY I READ THIS CIRCUMSTANCE IS IF THEY GET FULL -- THE FULL VAL -- THE

FULL RENT THAT WAS IN THE LEASE, THEN THE -- THE TENANT IS NO LONGER HAS TO

PAY BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING THE FULL THING. IF THEY'RE SHORT, I'M NOT

TOTALLY SURE HOW JUDGES ARE ADMINISTERING THAT, BUT THE FAIR MARKET

VALUE PIECE OF THIS WOULD BE DETERMINED BY THE JUDGE.

MR. FLOOD: OKAY, OKAY. BUT IF THE BURDEN OF

PROOF IS ON THE -- THE LANDLORD TO DO THIS IS, THE JUDGE ISN'T GO OUT TO

DETERMINE WHAT THAT IS, THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THE ONUS ON THOSE

ATTORNEYS, AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THIS IS SOMEONE WHO HANDLES A LOT OF

REAL ESTATE IN MY PRIVATE PRACTICE, THAT TO DETERMINE THE FAIR MARKET

VALUE OF COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES IS FAR MORE EXPENSIVE AND FAR MORE

DIFFICULT THAN FINDING A FAIR MARKET VALUE OF A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. OTIS: THE GOOD FAITH EFFORT REQUIREMENT IN THE

LAW IS PRIMARILY RESTS UPON MAKING THE GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO LEASE THE

PROPERTY. AND SO I -- I -- I THINK YOU'RE NOT FOCUSING ON THE RIGHT

LANGUAGE -- THE CORRECT LANGUAGE FROM --

MR. FLOOD: OH, NO, NO, NO. I UNDERSTAND WHAT

YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I'M FOCUSING ON EXACTLY WHAT I'M THINKING AS AS

SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, WHO'S BEEN IN COURT WHERE

THERE'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, WHERE I'VE HAD TENANTS WHO ARE LANDLORDS WHO

HAD BUILT THEM AN ENTIRE RESTAURANT CUSTOM FITTINGS, ALL THESE THINGS FOR

THE TENANT TO BREACH LATER ON AND THEN BE STUCK WITH A STANDARD SIMILAR

TO THIS. THEY WOULD LOSE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY AND THEN

DISCOURAGE REINVESTMENT. NOT ONLY THAT, YOU WOULD BE HELL-BENT TO

FIND SOMEONE THAT COULD NOW FALL INTO THOSE SPECIFIC PARAMETERS OF THAT

LEASE. SO...

MR. OTIS: IN YOUR -- YOUR -- WHAT YOU DEALT WITH,

YOU'RE DEALING WITH A RESIDENTIAL TENANT OR A COMMERCIAL TENANT?

MR. FLOOD: COMMERCIAL TENANT.

MR. OTIS: OKAY. THIS SECTION OF LAW DOESN'T GET

APPLIED COMMERCIAL TENANTS.

MR. FLOOD: I UNDERSTAND. BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT

THE -- FROM WHAT I'M SAYING IS I UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO

RELEASE A SPECIFIC SITE THAT HAS ALL DIFFERENT MODIFICATIONS. SO LIKE IN AN

EXAMPLE OF A RESTAURANT, IT'S NOT AS EASY JUST TO GET MAYBE IT'S NOT OPEN

LIKE A HOUSING, YOU CAN JUST GET ANYONE. IF IT'S PRE-FITTED TO HIT A

RESTAURANT, YOU PROBABLY NEED ANOTHER RESTAURANT COMING IN THERE AND

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

EACH RESTAURANT IS DIFFERENT. SO THE FAIR MARKET VALUE MAY BE DIFFICULT

TO DETERMINE, AND WHAT I'M SAYING IS WHO'S GOING TO BEAR THE COST OF

HAVING TO DO THAT, BECAUSE I ASSURE YOU WHEN YOU GO INTO JUDGE'S

CHAMBERS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT FOR YOU BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO

COST MONEY, THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THAT ONUS ON SOMEONE; APPRAISERS, ET

CETERA.

MR. OTIS: I WOULD HOPE AND I THINK THE LAW INTENDS

THAT THE JUDGE MEDIATE AND REFEREE THOSE SITUATIONS, WILL ASK QUESTIONS

AND DO THE FACT-FINDING TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

MR. FLOOD: WELL, I UNDERSTAND BUT EVEN ON THE

RESIDENTIAL SIDE, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO DETERMINE THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTY,

A JUDGE IS GOING TO SAY WELL, I WANT TO SEE AN APPRAISAL.

MR. OTIS: WELL, THIS IS WHAT JUDGES DO.

MR. FLOOD: AGAIN --

MR. OTIS: I MEAN THAT -- THAT IS -- THAT'S WHAT WE ASK

JUDGES TO DO.

MR. FLOOD: AND SO BUT NOW THE ONUS IS NOW ON

THE LAND -- THE TENANT. I MEAN I APOLOGIZE. THE ONUS IS NOW ON THE

LANDLORD TO DETERMINE THAT. SO NOW THE LANDLORD HASN'T BREACHED BUT

NOW THE LANDLORD HAS TO REACH INTO HIS POCKET TO PAY FOR AN APPRAISAL TO

PROVE TO THE COURT WHAT HE'S BEING OWED AND THEN POTENTIALLY TAKE LESS

THAN WHAT THEY HAD AGREED UPON. THAT'S JUST -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU,

BUT THAT TO ME SOUNDS LIKE IT'S JUST UNBELIEVABLY UNFAIR TO A LANDLORD

WHO DID NOTHING BUT THE TERMS OF THEIR LEASE. I MEAN IS THAT A FAIR

ASSESSMENT?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. OTIS: NO. I THINK WHAT IS THE THING TO FOCUS ON

HERE IS THE PUBLIC POLICY GOAL OF NOT HAVING UNNECESSARILY VACANT

COMMERCIAL SPACE, AND THE NEGATIVE IMPACT THAT THAT HAS ON OTHER

BUSINESSES AND ON THE ECONOMIC HEALTH OF A NEIGHBORHOOD OR A MALL.

MR. FLOOD: OKAY. I --

MR. OTIS: SO THERE IS -- WE'RE MAKING PUBLIC POLICY

JUDGMENTS WHEN WE DEAL WITH LEGISLATION LIKE THIS AND THAT IS WHY

SOME OF THE TRADEOFFS THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT ARE REALLY GOING TO

GET MEDIATED AND REFEREED BY A JUDGE AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

MR. FLOOD: WELL, I'M JUST CONFUSED ABOUT THIS

BECAUSE THE ECONOMIC HARM THAT LANDS ON A SPECIFIC, YOU KNOW,

LANDLORD THAT OWNS SAY A STRIP MALL, HE'S THE ONE TAKING THAT FINANCIAL

BURDEN. SO WHY ARE WE PUTTING ALL THE ONUS ON HIM TO REMEDIATE A

SITUATION THAT HE WOULD'VE DONE ANYWAY IN CONSTRUCTION WHERE THERE'S

NOW WOULD BE MORE HELPFUL TO HIM BECAUSE HONESTLY, THE LANDLORDS

KNOW HAVING VACANT PROPERTIES ON THEIR SITE IS GOING TO BE LESS

BENEFICIAL THAN HAVING A FULL SITE, BUT RIGHT NOW YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING

WE DON'T CARE THAT YOU BREACHED, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE YOU TO ACCEPT

LESS AND THEN ADD ON TOP OF THAT ALL OF THE COSTS OF DETERMINING WHAT,

YOU KNOW, HAVE YOU BEEN TRYING TO RECOVER. IT SEEMS DETRIMENTAL AND

SUBSTANTIALLY MORE DETRIMENTAL TO THE LANDLORD WHO AT THIS POINT IT

SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS BILL IS TRYING TO PROTECT, THAN IT IS TO

THE BREACHING PARTY.

MR. OTIS: WELL, WE CAN HAVE AN HONEST

DISAGREEMENT ABOUT HOW WE READ THE FACT SITUATION THERE. I RESPECT

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

YOUR VIEW, BUT I -- I DISAGREE WITH -- WITH THE ASSUMPTIONS THERE. I

THINK THAT THIS IS NECESSARILY -- NOT NECESSARILY AN ECONOMIC LOSS FOR THE

LANDLORD. IT MAY WORK OUT THAT HE DOES BETTER BY GETTING A NEW TENANT

IN THERE AS OPPOSED TO LEAVING IT VACANT AND HOPING HE'S GOING TO BE

ABLE TO RECOVER FROM A TENANT WHO LEFT AND -- AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE

ABLE TO PAY THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS ULTIMATELY.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL, PLEASE.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: ON THE BILL, MR.

FLOOD.

MR. FLOOD: AND I THANK YOU TO MY COLLEAGUE FOR

HIS ANSWERS. AGAIN, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE. AS

SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN LITIGATION WITH COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES, YOU

KNOW, BY -- BY SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF TO THE PARTY SEEKING

DAMAGES WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE CONTRACTS THAT LAYS IT OUT AND YOU

ALREADY HAVE A LEASE WITH TERMS AND AGREEMENT AND NOW YOU'RE ASKING

THEM TO FLIP THE COST OF LITIGATION, FLIP THE COST OF ANY APPRAISALS, THINGS

OF THAT NATURE, THIS IS JUST ANTI-BUSINESS. I MEAN IN A STATE THAT'S RATED

50 OUT OF 50 FOR THE LEAST BUSINESS-FRIENDLY, WE SHOULD BE DOING THINGS

TO HELP ENCOURAGE AND STIMULATE BUSINESS, NOT DRIVE MORE PEOPLE AWAY

AND MORE PEOPLE AWAY FROM TRYING TO DO BUSINESS IN THIS STATE.

THOUGH I UNDERSTAND AND I BELIEVE THAT THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL HAS, YOU

KNOW, GENERALLY GOOD INTENTIONS, I THINK THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES

OF THIS LEGISLATION ARE GOING TO MAKE IT HARDER AND HARDER FOR

BUSINESSES TO OPERATE IN THIS STATE. SO I WILL BE IN THE NEGATIVE AND I

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MR. MCGOWAN.

MR. MCGOWAN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MR. OTIS: YES, I WILL.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. MCGOWAN: THANK YOU, SIR. I JUST HAVE A

COUPLE QUESTIONS JUST TO CLARIFY SOME OF THE -- THE STATEMENTS THAT WERE

MADE BY MY COLLEAGUES. SO ESSENTIALLY HOW THIS WOULD WORK, A

BREACHING TENANT, THE LANDLORD WOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAKE GOOD FAITH

EFFORTS TO MITIGATE THAT LOSS, AND IF IN FACT COULD RECOVER LET'S SAY THE --

THE VALUE OF THE RENT THAT WAS OWED BY THE BREACHING TENANT WITH A NEW

TENANT, THERE WOULD BE NO -- ESSENTIALLY NO CAUSE OF ACTION. THAT

WOULD BE A PART OF RECOVERY IF THE LANDOWNER WAS ABLE TO RECOVER THE

SAME VALUE. IS THAT -- IS THAT FAIR? IS THAT HOW THIS WOULD WORK?

MR. OTIS: CORRECT. IN FACT THE EXISTING LAW IN THE

RESIDENTIAL SETTING AT THAT POINT IT WOULD TERMINATE THE OLD LEASE.

MR. MCGOWAN: SO THE FAIR MARKET VALUE, WHAT IF

THERE HAD BEEN A CHANGE? AND I KNOW WE CAN'T PREDICT EVERY SITUATION

CERTAINLY HERE IN THIS DEBATE, BUT WHAT IF THERE WAS A CHANGE AND THE

FAIR MARKET VALUE WAS ACTUALLY LESS THAN THE RENT THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO

BE PAID BY THE NOW BREACHING TENANT? JUST USING SIMPLE NUMBERS, LET'S

SAY THE RENT IS $5,000, A TENANT BREACHES, IS NO LONGER PAYING THAT, THE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LANDLORD THEN CAN RENT ON THE FAIR MARKET VALUE, LET'S SAY IS 4,000. AND

NOW AS A NEW TENANT WHO'S PAYING 4,000, THAT DELTA, THAT $1,000

DIFFERENCE, WOULD THE LANDLORD BE ABLE TO BRING AN ACTION TO RECOVER

THAT IN DAMAGES FROM THE -- FROM THE BEACHING TENANT?

MR. OTIS: YES. THAT IS THE WAY, DUTY TO MITIGATE,

OPERATE SO THE -- THE ORIGINAL TENANT WOULD STILL BE LIABLE FOR THAT

DIFFERENCE.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. WHAT ABOUT ANY COSTS

INCURRED BY THE LANDLORD AS A RESULT OF THE TENANT'S BREACH? FOR

INSTANCE, ANY BROKER'S FEES THAT HAVE TO BE PAID IN TRYING TO GET A NEW

TENANT, AGAIN, FOLLOWING THIS DUTY TO MITIGATE OR ANY OTHER COSTS LIKE

THAT? WOULD THAT BE SOMETHING THAT THE LANDLORD COULD SEEK TO RECOVER

FROM THE BREACHING TENANT?

MR. OTIS: AGAIN, THIS IS DEFINED IN THE EXISTING

STATUTE. TAKE REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY ACTIONS TO RENT THE PREMISES,

AND THE OTHER LINE IN HERE THAT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE, ACCORDING TO THE

LANDLORD'S RESOURCES AND ABILITIES. SO THE -- THE LAW AS WAS WRITTEN IN

2019 LEFT FLEXIBILITY FOR JUDGES TO BE FAIR AND REASONABLE AS IT RELATES TO

EXERCISING THAT PROVISION. AND I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT BEFORE 1995, THE

LAW IN NEW YORK STATE WAS RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES AND COMMERCIAL

PROPERTIES WERE HANDLED EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW AS IT RELATED TO THIS

ISSUE, DUTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES, DUTY TO MAKE REASONABLE EFFORTS TO

RELEASE A PROPERTY. AND WE ONLY NOW SINCE 2019 WHEN WE BROUGHT IT

BACK TO RESIDENTIAL HAVE LEFT COMMERCIAL HANGING OUT THERE. FOR THE

REST OF THE COUNTRY, THE GENERAL RULE IS THE DUTY TO MITIGATE IS HANDLED

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE WAY THAT I'M PROPOSING WE EQUALIZE IT HERE, AND THIS IS A

LONGSTANDING -- DUTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES IS, AS I KNOW YOU KNOW AS AN

ACCOMPLISHED ATTORNEY, IS SORT OF ONE OF THE PILLAR PRINCIPLES OF

CONTRACTS LAW. AND AGAIN, WHILE -- WHY COURSE CREDIT WILL BE PROVIDED

TO EVERYONE WHO CHECKS IN FOR THIS DEBATE, THIS IS ONE OF THE

LONGSTANDING PRINCIPLES OF CONTRACTS LAW THAT WE'RE REALLY JUST SEEKING

TO REASSERT IN THE COMMERCIAL SETTING THE WAY IT USED TO BE.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. THANK YOU, SIR. OKAY. I

THINK THAT ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS, I APPRECIATE IT.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: ON THE BILL, MR.

MCGOWAN.

MR. MCGOWAN: I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THE GOAL

HERE AND I APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S COMMENTS AND THE INTENT HERE, AND

I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, THE DUTY TO MITIGATE IS SOMETHING

THAT I THINK REASONABLY IS PURSUED. OBVIOUSLY IF YOU HAVE A LANDLORD

WITH RENTING A COMMERCIAL SPACE, COMMERCIAL TENANT BREACHES,

ABANDONS THE PROPERTY, LITIGATION IS COSTLY, LITIGATION PURSUING THAT RENT

THAT IS OWED, PURSUING A REMEDY FOR THAT BREACH, I THINK A REASONABLE

LANDLORD WOULD PROBABLY SAY LOOK, MAYBE THERE'S A WAY I CAN MITIGATE

THIS FINDING A NEW TENANT, BUT THERE'S COSTS INCURRED WITH THAT. AND I

THINK THAT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COMMERCIAL SPACE AND ALBEIT

MIGHT HAVE BEEN HANDLED BACK, YOU KNOW, PRE '95 OR IN OTHER STATES,

WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO A COMMERCIAL RELATIONSHIP IS DEALING WITH

PRETTY MUCH IN EVERY SITUATION WHAT WE CALL SOPHISTICATED ENTITIES WHO

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ARE REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL WHO CAN NEGOTIATE ALL THESE THINGS UNDER

CURRENT LAW. SO I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE STATE, US AS A BODY STEPPING

IN AND TELLING SOPHISTICATED PARTIES, COMMERCIAL ENTITIES HOW TO HANDLE

THEIR BUSINESS, AND I THINK THAT THEY'RE CERTAINLY CAPABLE OF DOING THAT.

I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO -- TO BE DOING THAT. I UNDERSTAND IT AND I

UNDERSTAND THE GOAL HERE FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE, BUT I THINK, TOO,

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES WHEN -- WHEN YOU BREACH A

CONTRACT AND CERTAINLY TO A COMMERCIAL ENTITY SHOULD KNOW THAT AND BE

AWARE OF THAT. SO I THINK THAT MITIGATION IS PROBABLY GOING TO HAPPEN

IN MOST INSTANCES ANYWAY. I THINK THAT MITIGATION, SOME TYPE OF

DAMAGES PROVISION WOULD BE INVOLVED AND CAN BE NEGOTIATED WITHIN A

CONTRACT ALREADY, WE DON'T NEED THIS LAW TO DO THAT. AND I THINK

REQUIRING IT IS GOING TO RESULT IN SOME UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES RATHER

THAN ENFORCING CONSEQUENCES FOR A BREACHING PARTY. SO FOR THOSE

REASONS I WILL BE IN THE NEGATIVE. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MRS.

PEOPLES-STOKES FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, IF YOU

COULD PLEASE CALL THE RULES COMMITTEE TO THE SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE

ROOM IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: RULES COMMITTEE TO

THE SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE ROOM IMMEDIATELY.

MS. BYRNES.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU. WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: WILL THE SPONSOR

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

YIELD?

MR. OTIS: YES.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MS. BYRNES: I BELIEVE IF I HEARD CORRECTLY A

MOMENT AGO YOU HAD INDICATED, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THAT IF

THERE IS A NEW TENANT AND IT RENTS FOR LESS SO THAT THERE'S STILL LIKE IT WAS

5,000, THEY RENT FOR 4-, SO THERE'S STILL $1,000 LESS THAT THAT WOULD

EFFECTIVELY -- OR THAT THEY COULD STILL -- THE LANDLORD COULD STILL SUE FOR

THAT $1,000 TO THE FORMER TENANT. WAS THAT CORRECT?

MR. OTIS: I DON'T KNOW --

MS. BYRNES: I THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID BUT

MAYBE I'M INCORRECT.

MR. OTIS: I DON'T KNOW THAT A LAWSUIT IS NECESSARILY

NECESSARY IN THAT THE LEAVING TENANT STILL HAS THAT OBLIGATION. THEY

WERE NOT RELEASED OF THEIR OBLIGATION. SO IF YOU BROUGHT IN SOMEBODY

AT A -- A LESSER RENT, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD BEEN DISCHARGED FOR PART OF

THEIR OBLIGATION BUT NOT ALL OF THEIR OBLIGATION.

MS. BYRNES: THE REASON --

MR. OTIS: THE WAY THE STATUTE READS.

MS. BYRNES: AND THE REASON I'M ASKING AND UNLESS

I'M MISREADING THE STATUTE, IT LOOKS LIKE IT INDICATES THAT -- THAT IT WOULD

-- BACK ON LINE 14 AND 15, THAT ONCE IN EFFECT A NEW LEASE, IT WOULD

TERMINATE THE PREVIOUS TENANT'S LEASE AND MITIGATE DAMAGES OTHERWISE

RECOVERABLE AGAINST THE PREVIOUS TENANT BECAUSE OF THE TENANTS VACATING

OF THE PREMISES. I WAS READING THAT SECTION TO INDICATE THAT -- THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BASICALLY THAT WOULD LET THE PREVIOUS TENANT OFF THE HOOK AND THAT THERE

COULD BE NO FURTHER LITIGATION.

MR. OTIS: I READ IT THE OTHER WAY, BUT I THINK AFTER

THIS DEBATE IS OVER, MAYBE YOU AND I CAN SHARE A RIDE OVER TO ALBANY

LAW SCHOOL AND WE'LL GET A RULING.

MS. BYRNES: (LAUGHTER), THAT -- THAT WOULD WORK.

NO, BUT ANYWAY, THAT IS A CONCERN AND HOPEFULLY -- BUT YOUR -- YOUR

INTENTION WITH THIS BILL IS THAT A SUBSEQUENT LEASE, LOWER AMOUNT, WOULD

BASICALLY END THE -- ANY ABILITY OF THE LANDLORD TO GO AFTER THE TENANT.

OR YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO AFTER THE TENANT -- TENANT ONE,

TENANT NUMBER ONE.

MR. OTIS: THE -- THE TENANT IS NOT FULLY UP -- IS NOT

FULLY DISCHARGED OF THEIR OBLIGATION UNLESS THE NEW TENANT IS PAYING

THAT FULL AMOUNT AS I -- AS I READ THE SECTION BUT...

MS. BYRNES: ALL RIGHT. AND THAT'S THE WAY YOU

READ IT AND YOUR INTENT AS THE SPONSOR IS THAT THE LANDLORD COULD STILL GO

AFTER TENANT NUMBER ONE FOR THEIR LOSSES.

MR. OTIS: AGAIN, WE'RE DEALING WITH AN EXISTING

SECTION OF LAW THAT -- THAT IS BEING REFEREED BY JUDGES TODAY AS IT RELATES

TO RESIDENTIAL LEASES. I -- I MEAN THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS FOR -- FOR

EVERYBODY LISTENING, I DON'T THINK THIS IS MUCH OF A BURDEN. ALL THIS

DOES IS REQUIRE GOOD FAITH, SIMPLE, REASONABLE EFFORTS TO TRY AND

RE-LEASE THE PROPERTY. IF THEY CAN'T DO IT, THE ORIGINAL TENANT WHO LEFT IS

STILL OBLIGATED TO PAY WHAT THEY WALKED AWAY FROM AND WHATEVER

FOLLOW-THROUGH IS INVOLVED WITH THAT IS STILL GOING TO GO ON. SO I JUST

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DON'T THINK IT IS THAT GREAT A BURDEN, BECAUSE THE WAY THE LAW WAS

WRITTEN IN 2019 DIDN'T SET THE BURDEN THAT HIGH. IT HAS ALL THESE, YOU

KNOW, REASONABLE BEST OF ABILITIES KINDS OF LANGUAGE. SO I -- I -- I

THINK ACTUALLY EVERYONE'S COMFORT LEVEL SHOULD BE BETTER, NOT WORSE

BASED UPON THE DISCUSSION THAT WE'VE HAD IN THIS DIALOGUE TODAY.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. THOSE WHO

SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MRS.

PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, THE

DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF

LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD DESIRE TO BE AN

EXCEPTION. THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR SEATS. THANK YOU,

SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. FLOOD TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. AND WITH ALL

DUE RESPECT TO MY COLLEAGUE, I DO APPRECIATE HIM, YOU KNOW, TAKING

THE TIME TO DEBATE THIS. THE PLAIN LANGUAGE IN THE BILL INDICATES

OTHERWISE (INAUDIBLE). WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IF A LANDLORD CAN MITIGATE

DAMAGES FOR TAKING A LESS AMOUNT. IT SAYS IT RIGHT HERE IN THE STATUTE. IF

THE LANDLORD RENTS THE PREMISES AT FAIR MARKET VALUE OR AT THE RATE

AGREED TO DURING THE TERM OF THE TENANCY, THE NEW TENANT'S LEASE SHALL

ONCE IN EFFECT TERMINATE THE PREVIOUS TENANT'S LEASE AND MITIGATE

DAMAGES WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE BE RECOVERABLE AGAINST THE PREVIOUS

TENANT. MEANING THAT IF HE FINDS SOMETHING FOR FAIR MARKET VALUE

WHICH IS THEN LOWER THAN THE PREVIOUS LEASE, THAT ONCE THEY FALL INTO

THAT TERM, OTHERWISE RECOVERABLE DAMAGES WOULD BE MITIGATED.

MEANING THAT THE LANDLORD IS STUCK FOR THE MONEY THAT HE HAS LOST UNDER

THIS. THAT'S -- FOR THAT REASON I VOTED NO AND I ENCOURAGE MY

COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MR. FLOOD IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. OTIS TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE.

MR. OTIS: JUST A LITTLE -- A LITTLE FOLLOW-UP ON A FEW

OF THESE THINGS. ON THE ISSUE OF LAWYERS BEING PART OF THE THING, WE IN

OTHER CASES - AND I DID A BILL A FEW YEARS AGO HAVING TO DO WITH

YELLOWSTONE INJUNCTIONS FOR YOU COMMERCIAL LAWYERS IN THE AUDIENCE.

PUTTING BACK THE -- THE RIGHT FOR -- THAT WERE -- WAS TAKEN AWAY BY THE

COURT OF APPEALS, AND IN THAT CASE THE LEGISLATURE SOMETIMES SAYS

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HAVING LOTS OF LAWYERS INVOLVED DOESN'T TAKE AWAY THE ABILITY OF THE

LEGISLATURE TO MAKE PUBLIC POLICY DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT RIGHTS

LANDLORDS AND TENANTS HAVE IN THESE SITUATIONS, AND SO ANOTHER ONE OF

THE ISSUES THAT WE DISCUSSED IN -- IN OUR -- OUR TIME TOGETHER.

ON THE -- ON THE ISSUE HERE, IF THEY RECEIVE THE ISSUE

THAT MR. FLOOD JUST MENTIONED, IF THEY RECEIVE LESS THAN FAIR MARKET

VALUE I ASSUME IN THE PLAIN READING OF THIS STATUTE, THAT THE TENANT THAT

LEFT WOULD STILL BE OBLIGATED FOR SOME LEVEL OF DIFFERENCE BUT THIS WOULD

GET MEDIATED BY THE JUDGE. SO I THINK THIS IS A GOOD LEGISLATION. I

THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO THE REFORM THAT WE DID FOR RESIDENTIAL TENANTS,

FOR COMMERCIAL TENANTS, RESTORE THE LAW TO WHAT IT WAS PRE-1995 AND

ACTUALLY, THIS IS BETTER THAN THE LAW BEFORE 1995 BECAUSE THE REASONABLE

LANGUAGE THAT WE PUT IN IN 2019 DID NOT EXIST IN SORT OF THE COMMON

LAW VERSION OF DUTY TO MITIGATE THAT EXISTED BEFORE 1995. THANK YOU. I

VOTE AYE.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MR. OTIS IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. SIMON TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE.

MS. SIMON: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I WANTED TO

JUST SAY THAT NUMBER ONE, I COMMEND THE SPONSOR FOR INTRODUCING THIS

BILL. I'M HAPPY TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF IT AND TO JUST POINT OUT THAT AT LEAST

IN MY CAREER AS A LAWYER, I NEVER REPRESENTED A PLAINTIFF WHO DIDN'T

HAVE TO MITIGATE DAMAGES. I DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY THAT SHOULD NOT

ALSO BE THE CASE FOR A COMMERCIAL LANDLORD. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MS. SIMON IN THE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 9, RULES REPORT NO. 157, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. S06635, RULES REPORT

NO. 157, SENATOR RAMOS (REYES, DINOWITZ, EPSTEIN, DESTEFANO,

SIMON, JEAN-PIERRE, COLTON, DARLING, FORREST, CRUZ, BURGOS, DILAN,

RAGA, JACOBSON, L. ROSENTHAL, SANTABARBARA, LUCAS, OTIS, SILLITTI). AN

ACT TO AMEND THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION LAW, IN RELATION TO CLAIMS

FOR MENTAL INJURY PREMISED UPON EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: AN EXPLANATION HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MS. REYES: THIS BILL WOULD EXPAND THE ABILITY TO

FOLLOW WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIM FOR MENTAL INJURY, PREMISED

UPON EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS INCURRED AT WORK TO ALL

EMPLOYEES.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: MS. WALSH.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MS. REYES: YES.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. WALSH: SO CAN YOU -- COULD YOU JUST SPEAK A

LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT OUR CURRENT LAW IN WORKERS' COMPENSATION

ALLOWS? AND THEN WE CAN GET INTO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THIS BILL

CHANGES THAT.

MS. REYES: SURE. SO THE CURRENT WORKERS'

COMPENSATION, THIS SECTION OF THE LAW, GIVES THIS ABILITY TO CLAIM

MENTAL EXTRAORDINARY MENTAL STRESS INJURY TO POLICE OFFICERS,

FIREFIGHTERS, EMERGENCY AND MEDICAL TECHNICIANS, PARAMEDICS,

EMERGENCY DISPATCHERS OR OTHER PERSONS CERTIFIED TO PROVIDE MEDICAL

CARE IN EMERGENCIES.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. AND SO I GUESS PEOPLE WILL DO

IT THIS WAY. SO THEN THIS BILL THEN REMOVES THAT, JUST STRIKES THE WHO THE

PERSON'S GOT TO BE --

MS. REYES: CORRECT.

MS. WALSH: -- AS FAR AS THEIR JOB AND EXPANDS IT TO

ANY EMPLOYEE, RIGHT? CLERICAL EMPLOYEE, YOU KNOW, ANYBODY.

MS. REYES: IT REPLACES IT WITH THE WORD WORKER.

MS. WALSH: YEAH, IT REPLACES IT WITH THE WORD

WORKER SO IT'S ANY WORKER AT ALL. AND UNDER OUR EXISTING LAW, WHY DID

WE PREVIOUSLY, IF YOU KNOW, WHY DID WE HAVE IT LIMITED TO POLICE

OFFICERS, FIREFIGHTERS, EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIANS OR PARAMEDICS,

FOR EXAMPLE, WHO ARE PROVIDING MEDICAL CARE IN EMERGENCIES OR AN

EMERGENCY DISPATCHER, TOO, I THINK IS INCLUDED.

MS. REYES: YEAH. THAT DELINEATION WAS ADDED IN

THE 2017 BUDGET. I -- I COULDN'T TELL YOU THE REASONS WHY THEY CHOSE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THOSE SPECIFIC PROFESSIONS, BUT WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE PROFESSIONS THAT

EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS AS WELL THAT WE ARE

LOOKING TO CAPTURE BY STRIKING THIS OUT AND REPLACING IT WITH THE WORD

WORKER.

MS. WALSH: BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT THAT WAS THE

REASON WHY THOSE JOBS -- THOSE TYPES OF JOBS WERE PUT IN THERE WITH AN

UNDERSTANDING -- JUST LIKE WE HAVE IN OTHER AREAS OF THE LAW, LIKE A

HEART PRESUMPTION FOR A FIREFIGHTER OR A POLICE OFFICER. THE IDEA THAT

YOU'RE -- YOU'RE RESPONDING AND YOU'RE UNDER EXTRAORDINARY STRESS IN THE

WAY YOU'RE DOING YOUR JOB, SO THE IDEA OF HAVING A PURELY MENTAL

HEALTH INJURY OR A PTSD, FOR EXAMPLE, WITHOUT PHYSICAL INJURY WOULD

NOT BE, YOU KNOW, SURPRISING IF YOU'RE IN THOSE TYPES OF FIELDS, RIGHT?

MS. REYES: YEAH, AND I THINK -- LOOK, WHEN WE

WRITE LAWS SOMETIMES WE MISS SOME THINGS AND THAT IS THE PROCESS AND

THE REASON WHY WE'RE HERE EVERY YEAR, RIGHT, TO AMEND LAWS THAT NEED

SOME WORK. THIS STATUTE WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THOSE WHERE THERE ARE

WORKERS WHO EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AT WORK THAT WE DIDN'T

CAPTURE. AND LATELY, PARTICULARLY POST-PANDEMIC, WE'VE SEEN HOW THERE

ARE INSTANCES OF EXTRAORDINARY STRESS THAT CAN LEAD TO PTSD. AND I

THINK THAT WHEN WE DEBATED THIS BILL LAST YEAR, WE TALKED ABOUT THE

SUPERMARKET WORKERS IN BUFFALO AT THE TOPS SUPERMARKET WHO

EXPERIENCED EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AFTER AN ACTIVE SHOOTER. ABSOLUTELY

NURSES AND HEALTHCARE WORKERS WHO ARE NOT CAPTURED UNDER FIRST

RESPONDER BUT EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS DURING -- DURING THE

SURGE OF COVID. WE ALSO HEARD FROM CORRECTION OFFICERS WHO AREN'T --

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WHO AREN'T CAPTURED IN THE CURRENT LANGUAGE WHO EXPERIENCE

EXTRAORDINARY STRESS EVERY DAY IN -- IN THEIR WORK SETTING.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. AND JUST MOVING AHEAD

LOOKING AT THE EXISTING LAW, THE EXISTING LAW REQUIRES THAT YOU -- THAT

YOU SHOWED THAT YOUR -- YOUR PURELY MENTAL INJURY OCCURRED, YOU

KNOW, IN A WORK-RELATED EMERGENCY. AND THEN IN THIS BILL, THAT

LANGUAGE IS STRUCK SO IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE INCURRED IN A WORK-RELATED

EMERGENCY, CORRECT?

MS. REYES: NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

MS. WALSH: I THOUGHT THAT THAT HAD BEEN STRUCK

OUT. YOU KNOW, WORK-RELATED EMERGENCY. LINE 8.

MS. REYES: THERE IS STILL A BURDEN OF PROOF THAT THE

WORKER WOULD HAVE TO MEET, BUT THE REASON WHY IT WAS STRUCK OUT IS

BECAUSE SOME WORK-RELATED STRESS DOESN'T RISE TO THE LEVEL OF AN

EMERGENCY, BUT IT'S STILL A STRESSFUL EVENT.

MS. WALSH: SO IN OTHER WORDS IT MIGHT BE

CUMULATIVE STRESS BUILT OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, NOT ONE -- ONE

EMERGENCY CALL OR ONE DAY IN THE LIFE THAT CREATED THAT -- THAT INJURY,

CORRECT?

MS. REYES: POTENTIALLY IT COULD BE, BUT THIS GIVES

THE DISCRETION TO THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD TO DECIDE THAT.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT THESE CASES OF WORK-RELATED STRESS BECAUSE

THEY DON'T FIT THE CRITERIA OF THOSE PROFESSIONS ARE JUST DISMISSED AND

THIS WOULD JUST GIVE THE ABILITY FOR WORKERS TO HAVE THE WORKERS'

COMPENSATION BOARD REVIEW THEIR CLAIMS. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'LL

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AUTOMATICALLY GET -- BE GRANTED.

MS. WALSH: NO, I UNDERSTAND, YES, ABSOLUTELY. SO,

SO THE WAY THAT THE BILL READS NOW IS IT SAYS, WORKER FILES A CLAIM FOR

MENTAL INJURY PREMISED UPON EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS

INCURRED. SO THAT'S THEIR BURDEN OF SHOWING TO THE WORKERS' COMP, THE

HEARING OFFICER, THAT WHEN IT GOES -- WHEN IT GOES TO A HEARING -- IT GOES

TO A HEARING, THEY HAVE TO -- THAT'S THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF. EXTRAORDINARY

WORK-RELATED STRESS OCCURRED AT WORK AND IT HAS TO BE SHOWN THAT IT'S AT

WORK --

MS. REYES: YEAH.

MS. WALSH: -- THAT HAS ALSO BEEN ADDED, OKAY. SO

WHAT ABOUT THE PART -- I WAS A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT LINE 9, 10, 11

WHERE IT SAYS, UPON A FACTUAL FINDING THAT THE STRESS WAS NOT GREATER

THAN THAT WHICH USUALLY OCCURS IN THE NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT. SO IN

OTHER WORDS, IT CAN BE - AND I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH.

WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO GET AT WITH THE ADDITION OF THAT -- WITH THAT

LANGUAGE WHICH WAS IN THE ORIGINAL LAW THAT'S NOT BEING STRUCK HERE?

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOW THAT IT WAS AN UNUSUAL DAY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO

SHOW THAT IT WAS A PARTICULARLY STRESSFUL WORK ENVIRONMENT, IT SHOULD

JUST BE A NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? I WAS JUST

CONFUSED BY THAT. THANK YOU.

(PAUSE)

MS. REYES: SO IT'S SAYING THAT THE -- THE STRESSFUL

SITUATION DOES NOT NEED TO BE GREATER THAN THE USUAL NORMAL LEVEL OF

STRESS INCURRED DURING THE NORMAL COURSE OF A WORK ENVIRONMENT -- OR

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE WORKDAY. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OF WORKERS

EXPERIENCING AN INCREASED LEVEL OF STRESS BECAUSE OF CONDITIONS OR

CIRCUMSTANCES AT WORK, THAT CAN'T BECOME THE NEW NORMAL THAT THAT

LEVEL OF STRESS IS ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IT'S BECOMING THE NEW NORMAL. IT'S

KIND OF UNDERSTOOD THAT THAT IS NOT CONSIDERED PART OF THE NORMAL

COURSE OF STRESS-RELATED WORK.

MS. WALSH: OKAY, ALL RIGHT. SO THE WORKER HAS TO

ALLEGE EXTRAORDINARY MENTAL -- INJURY PREMISED UPON EXTRAORDINARY

WORK-RELATED STRESS BUT THE -- BUT IT COULD BE A NORMAL WORK

ENVIRONMENT. IT JUST MIGHT BE A NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE

NEW NORMAL OR THE WAY THAT THAT WORK ENVIRONMENT IS IS IT'S JUST A

STRESSY SORT OF ENVIRONMENT, KIND OF LIKE THIS ONE, RIGHT?

MS. REYES: I'M GOING TO -- I'M GOING TO USE THE --

I'M GOING TO USE COVID AGAIN KIND OF LIKE THE HEIGHT OF THE SURGE AS A

AN EXAMPLE FOR THAT.

MS. WALSH: OKAY.

MS. REYES: DURING THAT TIME, IT WAS VERY STRESSFUL.

WAS THAT THE NORMAL, NO. BUT IT WAS THE -- THE LEVEL OF STRESS THAT

EVERYBODY WAS EXPERIENCING EVERY DAY, FOR DAYS ON END AND THE

EMPLOYER CAN SAY THAT'S NORMAL, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY NOT NORMAL. IT IS

EXTRAORDINARY.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WHEN

YOU DON'T HAVE A PHYSICAL INJURY AND YOUR CONSTI -- I MEAN NEW YORK

TOOK A STEP IN, I THINK IT WAS IN 2017 AS YOU SAID, AND ALLOWS A

WORKERS' COMP CLAIM WHERE THERE'S NO PHYSICAL INJURY. IT CAN BE A

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PURELY MENTAL INJURY AND THAT ALREADY IS A LOT MORE GENEROUS THAN A LOT

OF OTHER STATES DO. WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

MS. REYES: YEAH, BUT IT'S RESTRICTED TO THESE

PROFESSIONS.

MS. WALSH: YEAH, RIGHT. BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS IS

THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A PHYSICAL INJURY PLUS A MENTAL INJURY. YOU

CAN JUST HAVE A MENTAL INJURY AND BRING THIS WORKERS' COMP CLAIM IN

NEW YORK.

MS. REYES: YES.

MS. WALSH: YEAH. UNDER OUR EXISTING LAW AND

THEN AS THIS GETS EXPANDED TO MORE TYPES OF WORKERS.

MS. REYES: IF YOU -- IF YOU FALL UNDER THESE

CATEGORIES, THESE PROFESSIONS, YES.

MS. WALSH: OKAY.

MS. REYES: BUT WE'RE SAYING THAT THERE ARE OTHER

WORKERS THAT HAVE EXPERIENCE AND CAN EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY LEVELS

OF STRESS AT WORK THAT RISES TO THE LEVEL OF PTSD AND THEIR CLAIMS

SHOULD JUST BE HEARD BY THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD AND

CONSIDERED.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. HOW MANY MORE -- DO YOU

HAVE ANY IDEA OF HOW MANY MORE CLAIMS ARE ANTICIPATED AS A RESULT OF

THIS CHANGE IN THE LAW?

MS. REYES: THAT'S DIFFICULT TO INNUMERATE.

MS. WALSH: YEAH, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. SO

THEN FIGURING OUT HOW MUCH MORE IT MAY COST IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASSESS

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE CLAIMS THERE MIGHT BE.

MS. REYES: CORRECT. AND WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT THE

CLAIMS HAVE TO BE PAID. WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD BE REVIEWED

AND EVALUATED LIKE EVERY OTHER WORKERS' COMP CLAIM.

MS. WALSH: YEAH. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK AS YOU

GAVE EXAMPLES ABOUT NURSES, CORRECTIONS OFFICERS, I COULD CERTAINLY -- I

THINK WE CAN ALL THINK OF DIFFERENT PROFESSIONS THAT WEREN'T IN THAT

ORIGINAL LIST IN THE LAW THAT MAY VERY WELL BE ABLE TO MAKE OUT

MERITORIOUS CLAIMS. WAS THERE ANY CONSIDERATION MADE WHEN DRAFTING

THIS LEGISLATION TO SIMPLY ADD THOSE TYPES OF JOB TITLES RATHER THAN

COMPLETELY OPENING THE DOORS WIDE OPEN TO ANY EMPLOYEE?

MS. REYES: I THINK IT WOULD JUST BE DIFFICULT FOR US

TO TRY AND DECIDE WHICH PROFESSIONS SHOULD GET THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING

ABLE TO HAVE THEIR CLAIMS HEARD BY THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD.

I THINK ANY WORKER SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING A CLAIM

FORWARD AND HAVE ITS DAY IN COURT.

MS. WALSH: ALL RIGHT. I THINK -- WHO -- AS CLAIMS

ARE PAID OUT UNDER THIS SECTION, WHO -- WHO'S GOING TO BE PAYING FOR

THIS? WHATEVER THAT NUMBER IS, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. WHO PAYS

FOR IT?

MS. REYES: WHO PAYS FOR WORKERS' COMP?

MS. WALSH: YEAH.

MS. REYES: AND WE ALL PAY INTO WORKERS' COMP

AND THE EMPLOYERS PAY INTO WORKERS' COMP.

MS. WALSH: WHOSE RATES ARE LIKELY TO GO UP AS A

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

RESULT OF MORE BEING PAID OUT FOR WORKERS' COMP CLAIMS?

(PAUSE)

MS. REYES: YEAH, IT'S LIKE ALL WORKERS' COMP --

WORKERS' COMP CLAIMS, IT WOULD BE THE INSURANCE CARRIER. BUT THIS IS

AGAIN, LIMITED TO EXTRAORDINARY STRESS. IT'S -- WE ANTICIPATE IT'S GOING TO

BE A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF CLAIMS.

MS. WALSH: YOU DO?

MS. REYES: WE -- YES, WE DO.

MS. WALSH: WOW. ANY REASON WHY YOU WOULD

THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE NOT VERY MANY CLAIMS BROUGHT UNDER THIS?

MS. REYES: BECAUSE IT'S EXTRAORDINARY. IT WOULD BE

UNDER EXTRAORDINARY STRESSFUL SITUATIONS.

MS. WALSH: YEAH, BUT JUST LIKE IN ANY -- I MEAN

ANY LAWSUIT CAN BE BROUGHT ALLEGING ANYTHING, YOU KNOW. I MEAN YOU

CAN SUE ANYBODY YOU WANT. SAME THING HERE. I MEAN YOU'RE GIVING

EVERY SINGLE WORKER IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK AN OPPORTUNITY, WHETHER

THEY CAN ULTIMATELY PROVE IT OR NOT, YOU'RE GIVING THEM AN OPPORTUNITY

TO COMPLETELY OVERWHELM AND GUM UP A REALLY ARGUABLY FRAUGHT KIND

OF FUNCTIONING WORKERS' COMP SYSTEM AS IT IS, AND YOU'RE BASICALLY JUST

OPENING THE DOORS WIDE OPEN. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THERE WON'T BE A

LOT OF CLAIMS? MAYBE -- ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE WON'T BE A LOT THAT

WILL ACTUALLY GET PAID OUT, OR THAT THERE WON'T BE A LOT OF CLAIMS?

MS. REYES: I DON'T THINK THAT EVERY CLAIM RISES TO

THE LEVEL OF EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.

MS. WALSH: ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THAT. I

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU, THAT DOES NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BRINGING

THEM BUT YEAH, I GOTCHA, OKAY.

SO YOU MENTIONED THAT THE HIGHER COSTS WOULD BE

BORNE BY THE INSURANCE COMPANIES BUT DON'T THE INSURANCE COMPANIES

JUST TURN AROUND AND PASS THOSE COSTS ALONG -- ALONG TO HIGHER RATES

PAID BY THE BUSINESSES OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK? BUSINESSES PAY FOR

THIS, DON'T THEY? MORE CLAIMS, MORE PAYOUTS.

MS. REYES: YEAH, POTENTIALLY. IF -- IF THERE ARE

MORE -- MORE PAYOUTS.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, THANK YOU

VERY MUCH FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MS.

WALSH.

MS. WALSH: SO, AGAIN, MAYBE IT'S A THEME BASED

ON THE PREVIOUS BILL THAT WE WERE JUST DEBATING. WE WERE TALKING

ABOUT WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY UNFRIENDLY BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT WE HAVE

HERE IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK. WE ARE DEAD LAST OR CLOSE TO LAST, I'VE

LOST TRACK. IT'S AT THE VERY, VERY, VERY BOTTOM AS FAR AS BUSINESS

FRIENDLINESS. THIS TYPE OF COMPLETE CHANGE TO OUR WORKERS'

COMPENSATION LAW IS ONLY GOING TO MAKE IT THAT MUCH HARDER FOR

BUSINESSES. THE NEW YORK INSURANCE ASSOCIATION STATED IN THEIR

OPPOSITION MEMO THAT IT CALLED THIS AN UNPRECEDENTED, UNMANAGEABLE,

HIGH LEVEL OF UNCERTAINTY SINCE THE BAR FOR FILING THESE CLAIMS AND THE

PROOF FOR ESTABLISHING AN EXTRAORDINARY STRESS CLAIM HAS NOW BEEN

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SIGNIFICANTLY LOWERED AND THE ABILITY TO MAKE SUCH CLAIMS HAS BEEN

SIGNIFICANTLY EXPANDED TO ALL PERSONS IN THE WORKPLACE. SO LET'S TALK

ABOUT STRESS FOR A MINUTE. ARE WE ALL FEELING A LITTLE BIT OF STRESS TODAY?

MAYBE A LITTLE BIT OF STRESS THIS WEEK? WHO WORKS AND DOESN'T FEEL

STRESS? WE ALL DO, RIGHT? IF YOU -- IF YOU CAN SAY THAT I FEEL TODAY,

BECAUSE I'M OPERATING ON FOUR HOURS OF SLEEP AND WE'RE PASSING

HUNDREDS OF BILLS A DAY, I'M FEELING STRESSED OUT. I'M GOING TO

CONTINUE. YOU CAN BRING A WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIM, YOU KNOW.

IF YOU'RE A CLERICAL WORKER IN YOUR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT AND THE PERSON

IN THE CARREL OR THE CUBICLE NEXT TO YOU HAS -- HAS BEEN BULLYING YOU IN

YOUR MIND, YOU CAN BRING A WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIM, AND

WHETHER THESE CLAIMS ULTIMATELY GET PAID OUT IS ANOTHER THING. BUT CAN

YOU EVEN IMAGINE THE NUMBER OF CLAIMS THAT CAN BE BROUGHT BEFORE THE

WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD? IT'S GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE A

SIGNIFICANT -- POTENTIALLY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE TO THE POINT WHERE THE

SPONSOR DOESN'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE CLAIMS, DOESN'T KNOW HOW

MUCH MORE IT'S GOING TO COST, BUT WANTS TO MAKE THE CHANGE ANYWAY.

THE REASON WHY WE HAD THE LAW, OUR CURRENT LAW, THE WAY THAT IT IS

RIGHT NOW WAS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN JOBS THAT ARE

EXTRAORDINARILY STRESSFUL BY THEIR VERY NATURE. PEOPLE WHO ARE

EMERGENCY DISPATCHERS, EMTS, PARAMEDICS, POLICE, FIRE, WE KNOW. WE

HAVE OTHER LAWS ON THE BOOKS THAT RECOGNIZE THAT IF THEY HAVE A HEART

ATTACK WHILE THEY'RE DOING THEIR JOB, WE'RE GOING TO PRESUME THAT IT WAS

WORK-RELATED. THAT'S WHY WE DO THAT. AND SO THE WORKERS' -- THE

WORKERS' COMPENSATION CHANGE IS GOING TO BE A BIG CHANGE. THIS WAS

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

VETOED BACK IN 2023 FOLLOWING SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION IN THIS BODY. I

JUST -- I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW AMORPHOUS AND UNDEFINED

THE KIND OF TERM STRESS IS. WE USE THAT WORD, WE TOSS IT AROUND ALL THE

TIME. AND THERE'S NOTHING IN HERE EXCEPT FOR SAYING THAT IT NEEDS TO BE

AT A HIGH LEVEL OR EXTRAORDINARY. IT DOESN'T REALLY SAY ANYTHING ELSE

ABOUT IT. SO WE ALL HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT'S NORMAL AND WHAT'S KIND OF A

STRESSY WORK ENVIRONMENT. THIS JUST LET'S ALL OF THOSE CLAIMS COME IN.

SO AS THE NEW YORK INSURANCE ASSOCIATION SAID, THE TERM

�EXTRAORDINARY WORK STRESS� IS LEFT UNDEFINED, AND AMORPHOUS. SUCH

WOULD MEAN THAT IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY DETERMINE WHAT

�STRESS� IS ACTUALLY UNIQUELY ATTRIBUTABLE TO WORK, AS COMPARED TO

STRESS THAT IS INTERTWINED WITH THE VAGARIES AND VICISSITUDES OF LIFE, AND

INTRINSICALLY A PART OF THE HUMAN CONDITION. SO THAT'S -- I THINK THAT

THAT'S WHY THIS WAS VETOED BY THE GOVERNOR. THE GOVERNOR RECOGNIZED

THAT THIS BILL BY -- BY DOING WHAT IT DOES, COMES WITH A SIGNIFICANT COST

AND THAT THE NEW YORK COMPENSATION INSURANCE RATING BOARD'S PUBLIC

ACTUARY NOTED THAT THESE COST ESTIMATES ARE HIGHLY IMPRECISE GIVING THE

SCOPE OF COMPENSATION THIS PROPOSAL COULD POTENTIALLY DELIVER. WE, AS

A BODY, HAVE MADE SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS THROUGH THE BUDGET PROCESS

IN OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM AND IN IMPROVING MENTAL HEALTH. MAKING

THIS CHANGE THE WAY THAT IT'S BEING MADE IS -- IS NOT A GOOD IDEA,

BECAUSE IT OPENS JUST THE BARN DOORS WIDE OPEN TO ALL KINDS OF CLAIM

AND WHETHER THEY ULTIMATELY PREVAIL OR DON'T PREVAIL, IT'S GOING TO

IMPACT OUR BUSINESSES, IT'S GOING TO RAISE THE RATES FOR BUSINESSES, AND

MY GOD, IN THIS TIME OF INFLATION AND IN OUTMIGRATION AND IN BUSINESSES

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SHUTTERING UP IN NEW YORK STATE, DO WE REALLY WANT TO ADD ONE MORE

THING ON THE BACK OF OUR BUSINESSES? I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE. I

STRONGLY ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME. AND I DO THANK THE

SPONSOR FOR HER ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. NOVAKAHOV.

MR. NOVAKHOV: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL

THE SPONSOR ANSWER A FEW QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. REYES, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MS. REYES: YES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. NOVAKHOV: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SO I'VE

BEEN A BUSINESS OWNER FOR BASICALLY ALL MY LIFE AND THIS IS WHY I'M VERY

INTERESTED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION. FIRST OF ALL, HOW MUCH

MORE THE BUSINESSES WILL PAY FOR INCREASED WORKERS' COMP?

MS. REYES: THE BILL DOESN'T SPEAK TO THAT. IT'S NOT

GERMANE TO THE BILL.

MR. NOVAKHOV: BUT THIS BILL WILL, YOU KNOW, THIS

BILL WILL BE CONSEQUENCES OF PAYING MORE. I MEAN, DO YOU AGREE THAT

BUSINESSES WILL PAY MORE?

MS. REYES: I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THAT.

AND I HAVEN'T MADE AN ANALYSIS OF COST. ALL WE'RE TRYING TO SAY IS THAT

WE'RE EXPANDING THIS RIGHT TO WORKERS THAT CURRENTLY EXIST IN LAW, RIGHT?

AND THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD ALREADY EVALUATES STRESS AND

USES THE WORD "STRESS", IT'S ALREADY IN -- IN LAW. WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FOR EXTRAORDINARY STRESS, WORKERS WILL BE ABLE TO BRING A CLAIM. I

COULDN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE COST IS. THE BILL DOESN'T SPEAK TO THAT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. SO WORKING ON THIS BILL

WE DON'T KNOW THE FINANCIAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THE BUSINESSES; IS THAT

TRUE?

MS. REYES: WE CAN'T ANTICIPATE WHO BRINGS A CLAIM

AND IF IT PREVAILS OR IF IT DOESN'T.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. WHO WILL EVALUATE THE

LEVEL OF STRESS?

MS. REYES: I'M SORRY?

MR. NOVAKHOV: WHO WILL EVALUATE THE LEVEL OF

STRESS?

MS. REYES: WHO WILL EVALUATE IT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: WHO WILL SAY THIS STRESS IS

EXTRAORDINARY AND THIS STRESS IS REGULAR STRESS? WHO WILL DETERMINE

THAT?

MS. REYES: THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD.

THEY CURRENTLY DO THAT NOW. IT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: DO YOU KNOW HOW THEY DO IT?

MS. REYES: I DON'T KNOW HOW THE WORKERS'

COMPENSATION BOARD DOES THAT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: DO THEY HAVE LIKE PSYCHIATRISTS

OR PSYCHOLOGISTS --

MS. REYES: WELL, A DOCTOR HAS TO SIGN OFF ON -- ON

THOSE CLAIMS. ON JUST SIMILAR LIKE TO PHYSICAL INJURY THAT HAS TO BE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SIGNED OFF BY A DOCTOR. FOR MENTAL INJURY A DOCTOR, A PSYCHIATRIST,

WHOEVER THE PROFESSIONAL IS THAT THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD

DEEMS.

MR. NOVAKHOV: WITH A PHYSICAL OR MENTAL INJURY

WE KNOW THE DIAGNOSIS. WE KNOW -- WE KNOW IF THE PERSON HAVE A

PAIN IN HIS LEG OR ARM OR HAS A DEPRESSION --

MS. REYES: THERE ARE PHYSICAL INJURIES THAT YOU

CAN'T PHYSICALLY SEE. SIMILARLY THIS IS AN INJURY THAT YOU CAN'T SEE.

MR. NOVAKHOV: YEAH, BUT WE KNOW EVEN IN

PSYCHIATRY WE KNOW THE DIAGNOSIS. WE KNOW THAT THIS IS DEPRESSION

FOR EXAMPLE, RIGHT?

MS. REYES: BUT WE'RE NOT -- WE ARE NOT SAYING

DEPRESSION. WE ARE SAYING PTSD.

MR. NOVAKHOV: RIGHT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

STRESS. SO I'M CURIOUS WHO WILL EVALUATE THE LEVEL OF STRESS -- THE LEVEL

OF EXTRAORDINARY STRESS. SO WE DON'T KNOW THAT AS WELL, RIGHT?

MS. REYES: YEAH. IT'S THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION

BOARD AND A PHYSICIAN. EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO NOW FOR THIS SECTION OF

THE LAW.

MR. NOVAKHOV: DO THEY EVALUATE STRESS NOW?

MS. REYES: YES, THEY DO.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. SO THEY DO EVALUATE

STRESS BUT THEY DON'T -- BUT THERE'S NO LEGISLATION TO -- FOR THE EMPLOYEE

TO GET COMPENSATED FOR THE STRESS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY?

MS. REYES: NO. I THINK YOU'RE MISUNDERSTANDING.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THIS CURRENTLY HAPPENS, AND IT HAPPENS FOR SOME PROFESSIONS, NOT FOR

ALL WORKERS.

MR. NOVAKHOV: CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE?

MS. REYES: YES, IT'S IN THE BILL. POLICE OFFICERS,

FIREFIGHTERS, EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIANS, PARAMEDICS AND OTHER

PERSONS CERTIFICATED TO PROVIDE MEDICAL CARE IN EMERGENCIES OR AN

EMERGENCY DISPATCHER. SO THE BOARD -- THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION

BOARD ALREADY DOES THIS FOR THOSE PROFESSIONS.

MR. NOVAKHOV: SO DOES THIS BILL EXTEND TO OTHER

PROFESSIONS AS WELL?

MS. REYES: CORRECT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN

EXAMPLE OF ANOTHER PROFESSION WHERE STRESS --

MS. REYES: CORRECTION OFFICER.

MR. NOVAKHOV: CORRECTION OFFICER.

MS. REYES: NURSE, DOCTOR, (INAUDIBLE)

MR. NOVAKHOV: SO ANYONE. ASSEMBLYMEMBER?

MS. REYES: YOU WOULD HAVE TO PROVE

EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.

MR. NOVAKHOV: EXTRAORDINARY STRESS. OKAY,

GOOD. SO HOW TO AVOID FRAUD, WHICH I'M SURE WILL BE ASSOCIATED WITH

THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I CAN JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M UNDER

EXTRAORDINARY STRESS NOW, I'M STRESSED OUT BECAUSE WE'RE WORKING 12,

13 HOURS A DAY WITH EXTRAORDINARY STRESS. ARE YOU AGREEING WITH

EXTRAORDINARY STRESS?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. REYES: NO --

(INAUDIBLE/CROSS-TALK)

I MAY BE UNDER EXTRAORDINARY STRESS BUT --

MR. NOVAKHOV: RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT. SO HOW DO

YOU THINK WE WILL AVOID THE FRAUD, WHICH I BELIEVE WILL BE ENORMOUS IN

THIS -- AFTER THIS LEGISLATION WILL BE PASSED AND SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR,

BECAUSE I MEAN ANYONE CAN CLAIM EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.

MS. REYES: SURE, BUT THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION

BOARD STILL HAS TO EVALUATE THAT CLAIM, RIGHT, AND THEY HAVE TO -- YOU

HAVE TO HAVE A DOCTOR SIGN OFF ON THAT. IT'S NOT JUST SAYING I AM

CLAIMING EXTRAORDINARY STRESS. IT HAS TO RISE TO THE LEVEL OF STRESS THAT

IS ABOVE AND BEYOND THE EVERY DAY WORK ENVIRONMENT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: RIGHT. SO WE DON'T KNOW HOW

MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST -- FOR THE BUSINESS TO -- HOW MUCH MORE

BUSINESS WILL BE PAY FOR WORKERS' COMPENSATION. WE DON'T KNOW

EXACTLY HOW EXTRAORDINARY STRESS, WHAT EXTRAORDINARY STRESS IS AND HOW

IT'S GOING TO BE EVALUATED, I'M SORRY.

MS. REYES: WE DO KNOW -- WE DO KNOW HOW IT'S

EVALUATED. THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD EVALUATES IT AND A

PHYSICIAN WHO CAN DIAGNOSE PTSD WILL DETERMINE IF THAT PERSON IS

INDEED --

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY, BUT WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO

AVOID FRAUD WHICH WILL BE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS LEGISLATION.

MS. REYES: THE SAME WAY YOU AVOID FRAUD NOW,

THE SAME WAY YOU AVOID FRAUD NOW IN WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIMS.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LIKE THIS IS A STRUCTURE THAT ALREADY EXISTS. ALL THE MECHANISMS YOU'RE

ASKING ME ABOUT ALREADY EXISTS.

MR. NOVAKHOV: SO WHY AN EMPLOYEE CAN'T JUST

QUIT THE JOB IF THIS JOB IS IT TOO STRESSFUL FOR THE EMPLOYEE?

MS. REYES: IT'S NOT ABOUT EVERY DAY STRESS. IT'S NOT

ABOUT MY JOB IS STRESSFUL. THIS IS ABOUT EXTRAORDINARY STRESS --

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. SO MY JOB --

MS. REYES: -- AND SIMILARLY -- AND SIMILARLY --

MR. NOVAKHOV: MY JOB IS EXTRAORDINARY STRESS --

MS. REYES: -- AND SIMILARLY I WOULD ARGUE THAT

WHEN POLICE OFFICERS SIGN UP FOR THE FORCE, WHEN FIREFIGHTERS SIGN UP TO

BE FIREFIGHTERS, THAT JOB IS INHERENTLY STRESSFUL, RIGHT? AND WE DON'T SAY

TO THEM WELL, YOU SHOULD JUST QUIT BECAUSE YOU'RE STRESSED, YOU KNOW,

YOU SHOULD'VE NEVER BECOME A POLICE OFFICER. THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE

SAYING. WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THAT THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES AND WE

RECOGNIZE THAT IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF WORK, AND WE RECOGNIZE IT FOR

THESE PROFESSIONS THAT THERE ARE EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE

SOMEBODY MAY BE EXPERIENCING STRESS THAT IS UNLIKE YOUR EVERY DAY

COURSE OF WORK. AND WE'RE SAYING THAT -- THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES CAN ALSO

EXIST IN OTHER PROFESSIONS THAT WE HAVEN'T DELINEATED IN THE LAW, AND

THAT'S WHY WE ARE SAYING THAT WE ARE OPENING IT UP TO OTHER WORKERS

WHO CAN POTENTIALLY ALSO EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AT WORK.

MR. NOVAKHOV: WELL, I BELIEVE IF I'M

EXPERIENCING EXTRAORDINARY STRESS BEING A NURSE OR A BUS DRIVER, YOU

KNOW, I JUST REALIZE THAT I CAN'T CONTINUE WORKING AS A BUS DRIVER OR A

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NURSE ANYMORE.

MS. REYES: RIGHT.

MR. NOVAKHOV: RIGHT?

MS. REYES: IF YOU -- IF YOU HAVE AN INSTANCE AS A

BUS DRIVER WHERE YOU ARE IN AN ACCIDENT AND YOU LOSE SOME OF YOUR

PASSENGERS THAT MAY BE CHILDREN OR WHOMEVER, THAT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY

STRESSFUL EVENT THAT CAN CAUSE YOU TO NOT BE ABLE TO FUNCTION AT WORK

EVERY DAY. AND THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF WORKERS' COMPENSATION SO THAT

WE CAN GET THOSE PEOPLE HELP AND SUPPORT WHILE THEY CAN GET BETTER TO

RETURN BACK TO WORK.

MR. NOVAKHOV: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. THOSE WHO

SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. THE DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF THIS

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PIECE OF LEGISLATION. THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT DESIRE TO BE AN

EXCEPTION. THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR SEATS. THANK YOU,

SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. GOODELL TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. AS YOU KNOW, IN

THE LAST FEW YEARS WE'VE SEEN SOME VERY ALARMING TRENDS THAT ACTUALLY

THREATEN THE STRENGTH AND VITALITY OF NEW YORK STATE. THE LATEST

CENSUS STATUS DATA SHOWED THAT WE LOST 200,000 RESIDENTS IN NET LAST

YEAR, OVER 500,000 OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS. AND WHY ARE THE PEOPLE

LEAVING? IT'S VERY SIMPLE. THEY HAVE BETTER OPPORTUNITIES ELSEWHERE.

THEY CAN MAKE MORE MONEY ELSEWHERE, THEIR COST OF DOING BUSINESS IS

LOWER, THERE ARE MORE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES. CONTRIBUTING TO THAT

EXODUS IS THE FACT THAT WE IN NEW YORK IMPOSE SO MANY EXPENSES ON

OUR EMPLOYERS IT'S HARDER FOR THEM TO BE PROFITABLE, IT'S HARDER FOR THEM

TO PAY MORE, IT'S HARDER FOR THEM TO EVEN SURVIVE IN NEW YORK STATE.

ACCORDING TO A RECENT STUDY CONDUCTED BY THE

DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS, NEW YORK STATE RANKED NUMBER TWO

IN THE HIGHEST WORKERS' COMP RATES IN THE NATION. OUR WORKERS' COMP

RATES WERE 69 PERCENT HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. SO DOES THIS

LEGISLATION BRING OUR WORKERS' COMP RATES LOWER? NO. IT PUTS THEM

HIGHER. DOES IT ENCOURAGE MORE JOB GROWTH IN NEW YORK STATE? NO.

IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT AND MORE EXPENSIVE TO BE IN NEW YORK

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

STATE. DOES IT ADDRESS THE FACTORS THAT ARE CAUSING A HUGE

OUTMIGRATION? NO. IT DOES THE OPPOSITE. PERHAPS IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR

THE FUTURE OF NEW YORK STATE IF WE FOCUSED ON HOW WE CAN BRING THE

COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN NEW YORK CLOSER TO THE NATIONAL AVERAGE

RATHER THAN DRIVING IT EVEN FURTHER RECOGNIZING THAT WE ARE ALREADY 69

PERCENT HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.

SO WHILE I SUPPORT THE DESIRE TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE

STRESSED OUT, BY SO DOING WE STRESS OUT THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES WHO NOW

HAVE TO MOVE OUT OF THE STATE IN ORDER TO OBTAIN EMPLOYMENT. THANK

YOU, SIR. I VOTE NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. NOVAKAHOV TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. NOVAKHOV: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR THE

OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK

THE SPONSOR FOR THE DIALOGUE AND THAT WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE WITH THE BUS

DRIVER AND INDEED, THE BUS DRIVER WOULD BE STRESSED IF HE GETS IN AN

ACCIDENT AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING HAPPENS WITH THE -- WITH THE

PASSENGERS. HOWEVER, WHY I -- YOU KNOW, WHY I'M IN THE NEGATIVE,

WHY I CAN'T SUPPORT THIS BILL IS BECAUSE IN MY BELIEF WHEN WE ARE DOING

LEGISLATION LIKE THIS, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL CONSEQUENCES

FOR THE BUSINESSES -- FOR THE SMALL BUSINESSES. SO BECAUSE WE DON'T

KNOW -- THERE'S NOT ENOUGH RESEARCH TO UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH THAT

WOULD BE FOR THE SMALL -- HOW MUCH MORE THAT WILL BE FOR THE SMALL

BUSINESSES. IT'S ANOTHER BURDEN ON THE SMALL BUSINESSES. SO MAYBE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THAT'S A GOOD LEGISLATION. I DON'T KNOW YET BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH

INFORMATION. I NEED TO KNOW -- WE ALL NEED TO KNOW AND THE BUSINESSES

HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW HOW MUCH MORE THAT WOULD COST THEM. AND FOR

THIS REASON UNFORTUNATELY, UNFORTUNATELY, I CANNOT SUPPORT THIS

LEGISLATION. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU. MR.

NOVAKHOV IN THE NEGATIVE.

MR. STECK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. STECK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. MOST OF THE

DOMESTIC OUTMIGRATION LAST YEAR ORIGINATED IN THE FIVE BOROUGHS OF

NEW YORK CITY WHICH LOST A COMBINED 162,310 PEOPLE. I WOULD

VENTURE TO SAY THAT HAS TO DO WITH LARGELY WITH THE VERY HIGH COST OF

RENT IN NEW YORK CITY WHICH THE MINORITY CONFERENCE ASSIDUOUSLY

DEFENDS AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY. I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. STECK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. BRONSON.

MR. BRONSON: YES, MR. SPEAKER. I RISE TO EXPLAIN

MY VOTE AND TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR OF THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION. YOU

KNOW IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT WE KEEP HEARING THIS RHETORIC THAT

WORKERS' COMP IS SO COSTLY TO BUSINESS AND I BEING A BUSINESS OWNER

UNTIL MIDNIGHT OF DECEMBER 31ST OF LAST YEAR CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THAT.

BUT IT'S JUST NOT TRUE. WORKERS' COMP PREMIUMS HAVE GONE DOWN,

GONE DOWN OVER THE LAST DECADE. THE ASSESSMENTS ON WORKERS' COMP

HAS GONE DOWN OVER THE LAST DECADE. SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO BE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CAREFUL ABOUT JUST CLAIMING WORKERS' COMP COSTS ARE SO HIGH IN NEW

YORK STATE WHEN INDEED THE REFORMS WE'VE TAKEN HAVE REDUCED THE

COST OF BUSINESSES OVER THE LAST DECADE.

ALSO, THERE'S A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THIS BILL. THIS BILL

MERELY IS SAYING FOR ALL WORKERS AS A DEFENSE WHEN A CLAIM IS

CONTROVERTED THAT THE EMPLOYER OF THE INSURANCE COMPANY CANNOT USE

THAT THE STRESS IN ITS FACTUAL FINDING IS NOT GREATER THAN THAT WHICH

USUALLY OCCURS IN THE NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT. THAT'S ALL THIS BILL

DOES. IT'S AN EVIDENTIARY BILL. IT EXPANDS IT TO ALL WORKERS VERSUS JUST

POLICE OFFICERS AND FIREFIGHTERS, BUT THE BILL IS AN EVIDENTIARY BILL, AND IT

MAKES MORE FAIR TO INJURED WORKERS WHO HAVE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AS A

RESULT OF THEIR JOB. IT HAS TO BE CONNECTED TO THE JOB. SO THIS IS A GOOD

BILL BECAUSE IT WILL PROTECT INJURED WORKERS WHO HAVE STRESS RESULTING,

EXTRAORDINARY STRESS RESULTING BECAUSE OF THEIR WORKPLACE EXPERIENCE

WITH THAT CONNECTION. WITH THAT, I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND I VOTE IN

THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BRONSON IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. LAVINE.

MR. LAVINE: IT'S ALREADY YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN

LISTENING TO THE ARGUMENT THAT NEW YORK STATE IS ABSOLUTELY THE WORST

PLACE, FORGET ABOUT IT, IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. PERHAPS ON THE

FACE OF THE GLOBE. I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY. AND WHILE I'M SURE THAT

THERE ARE SOME ENTITIES THAT BASED SOLELY ON SOME NARROW

CONSIDERATIONS WOULD FIND US TO BE PERHAPS NOT AS ATTRACTIVE TO

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BUSINESSES AS ALASKA OR NORTH DAKOTA, I'M NOT TOO LIKELY TO WANT TO

LIVE IN ALASKA OR IN NORTH DAKOTA AND I'VE LIVED IN REMOTE PARTS OF THE

UNITED STATES. AND I JUST WANT TO CLOSE BY SAYING THAT I THINK WE ALL

RESPECT CNBC'S BUSINESS ACUMEN. CNBC RELATES -- WELL, I'M GLAD THAT

THAT CAUSES SOME LAUGHTER FOR YOU WHEN I THINK THAT THAT MAY BE A

LAUGHTER OF EMBARRASSMENT, BUT WE ARE RANKED BY CNBC. AND I'M

GOING TO CLOSE S WITH SOMETHING THAT YOU MAY FIND INTERESTING, THOSE OF

YOU WHO ARE LAUGHING. WE RANKED 20TH AS AMONGST THE BEST PLACES TO

LIVE BUT THAT INCLUDES FACTORS SUCH AS WORKFORCE STRENGTH,

INFRASTRUCTURE, THE STRENGTH OF OUR ECONOMY, QUALITY OF LIFE, INCLUSION,

THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS, TECHNOLOGY, INNOVATION AND EDUCATION AND

ACCESS TO CAPITAL. NEW YORK REMAINS THE ECONOMIC CAPITAL OF NOT ONLY

THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD, AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WISH TO LIVE

IN SOME OF THESE STATES THAT YOU'VE SEEM TO THINK ARE SO IDEAL, I WOULD

ONLY SUGGEST HAVING LIVED IN SOME OF THOSE PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES

YOU MIGHT THINK TWICE ABOUT THAT. I'M HAPPY TO STAY HERE IN NEW YORK

STATE. I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. LAVINE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. WALSH TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. SO I JUST

WANT TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT WERE JUST MADE RECENTLY.

ONE -- SO TWO THINGS ARE REALLY HAPPENING WITH THIS BILL. AND THE FIRST

IS AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, INSTEAD OF RECOGNIZING CERTAIN CATEGORIES OF

WORKERS THAT HAVE INHERENTLY STRESSFUL JOBS LIKE POLICE, FIREFIGHTERS,

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WE'RE JUST OPENING UP TO EVERY EMPLOYEE IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT'S HAPPENING. THE SECOND THING IS WE'RE

ELIMINATING THE NEED TO SHOW A WORK-RELATED EMERGENCY AND WE'RE JUST

SAYING IT'S AT WORK. SO THE EXAMPLE THAT WAS GIVEN ABOUT THE BUS

DRIVER AND THE BIG CRASH, THAT WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF A WORK-RELATED

EMERGENCY. WE'RE WIPING THAT OUT. THIS CAN BE A SITUATION WHERE IT'S

JUST DAY-TO-DAY STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT, MAYBE WITH CO-WORKERS, I THINK

IT COULD LEAD TO A LOT OF VERY QUESTIONABLE CLAIMS. I THINK THAT IT COULD

LEAD TO A LOT OF ABUSE AND I KNOW -- I HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE IN

THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD, BUT I KNOW THAT THIS IS GOING TO

INCREASE THEIR WORKLOAD SUBSTANTIALLY. WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH ANY

OF THAT IS GOING TO COST OR HOW THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE BUDGETED FOR

OR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ADDED THERE. I JUST -- YOU

KNOW, I KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE CAN ALL QUOTE DIFFERENT STATISTICS, BUT JUST

BECAUSE WE'RE QUOTING A STATISTIC DOESN'T MEAN IT'S RHETORIC. JUST

BECAUSE MAYBE YOU DON'T LIKE THE STATISTIC. WE LEAD THE NATION IN

OUTMIGRATION. WE DO. WE ARE ONE OF THE LEAST FRIENDLY STATES FOR

BUSINESS IN THE COUNTRY. NOW IT'S NOT ALL BECAUSE OF WORKERS' COMP,

SOME OF IT'S BECAUSE OF THE CLCPA GOALS THAT -- THAT COMPANIES ARE

JUST SAYING WE CAN'T MEET THEM, WE DON'T WANT TO MEET THEM, WE'RE

GOING TO SHUT IT OFF AND WE'RE GOING TO GO TO A STATE THAT'S FRIENDLIER TO

US. SO IT'S NOT JUST THIS THAT'S DRIVING BUSINESSES OUT AND I HOPE NO ONE

TOOK MY ARGUMENTS TO MEAN THAT, BUT IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT HELP. IT

DOESN'T HELP TO ALLEVIATE ANY OF THE REASONS WHY COMPANIES ARE LEAVING

AND THE PEOPLE THAT GO ALONG WITH THEM.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SO AGAIN, I'LL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND THANK YOU,

MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WALSH IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MR. GOODELL FOR THE PURPOSES OF A INTRODUCTION.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

SPEAKER. IT IS MY GREAT PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE TO OUR CHAMBER SOME

REMARKABLE GUESTS. WE HAVE WITH US JETSYN AND LENNYN HOFFMAN, AND

THEY'RE BOTH 21 MONTHS OLD. I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHICH ONE OF THOSE

TWINS IS OLDER. BOTH OF THESE TWINS HAVE BROTHERS, TYTAN AND HOUSTYN

AND THEY ARE THE SONS -- DAUGHTERS, RATHER, OF JEFFREY HOFFMAN AND

MARISSA HOFFMAN, AND JEFFREY HOFFMAN IS A REMARKABLE PITCHER WITH

THE PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES. HIS PITCHES ARE 50 PERCENT HIGHER AND MORE

RELIABLE THAN MY CAR. THEY'RE HERE WITH THEIR VERY PROUD GRANDMOTHER.

THEY CALL HER "MIMI" BUT I CALL HER MICHELLE KREGE. PLEASE WELCOME

MICHELLE KREGE AND HER GRANDDAUGHTERS JETSYN AND LENNYN TO OUR

CHAMBERS. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY. ON BEHALF

OF MR. GOODELL, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE SUBSTITUTES FOR THOSE DELICIOUS,

BEAUTIFUL YOUNG LADIES. WHETHER OR NOT YOU'LL ACCEPT THEM AS

SUBSTITUTES I DON'T KNOW. HOWEVER, ON BEHALF OF MR. GOODELL, THE

SPEAKER AND ALL THE MEMBERS, WE WELCOME YOU HERE TO THE NEW YORK

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

STATE ASSEMBLY WHEREVER YOU MAY BE AND WE EXTEND TO YOU THE

PRIVILEGES OF THE FLOOR AND HOPE YOU COME BACK AND JOIN US IN ORDER TO

TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT. AND AS FOR THE TWO WAVING IN THE BACK, GOOD

TRY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

(APPLAUSE)

PAGE 9, RULES REPORT NO. 159, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A06042-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 159, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, STIRPE, COLTON, CRUZ, JEAN-PIERRE,

JACKSON, GIBBS, LEVENBERG, SEAWRIGHT, EPSTEIN, SILLITTI, ARDILA,

HYNDMAN, SIMON, LUCAS, GUNTHER, AUBRY, DAVILA, WEPRIN. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING INSURANCE POLICIES TO

PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS DURING PREGNANCY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. BICHOTTE

HERMELYN, A EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. THIS BILL WOULD REQUIRE COMMERCIAL INSURANCE COVERAGE OF

MEDICALLY NECESSARY TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS FOR CARE AND TREATMENT

DURING PREGNANCY WHEN RECOMMENDED BY NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED

CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WALSH.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS?

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: SURE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SO I SAW THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IT'S GOING TO SAY WHEN RECOMMENDED BY NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL

PRACTICE GUIDELINES, AND THEN I WAS LOOKING AT THE BILL THAT SAYS FOR THE

PURPOSES OF THIS SUBPARAGRAPH THAT MEANS GUIDELINES INFORMED BY A

SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF EVIDENCE AND AN ASSESSMENT OF THE BENEFITS AND

RISKS OF ALTERNATIVE CARE OPTIONS INTENDED TO OPTIMIZE PATIENT CARE

DEVELOPED BY INDEPENDENT ORGANIZATIONS OR MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL

SOCIETIES UTILIZING A TRANSPARENT METHODOLOGY AND REPORTING STRUCTURE

AND WITH A CONFLICT OF INTEREST POLICY. SO THAT'S A LOT OF WORDS. MY

QUESTION IS, IS THERE MORE THAN ONE, I MEAN, NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED

CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINE RELATED TO THIS KIND OF TREATMENT?

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: I MEAN THERE'S --

WHAT I WOULD SAY THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES CAN LOOK AT THEIR PEER

NATIONAL RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES. THERE ARE -- THERE ARE

MULTIPLE, AND IT COULD BE A SITUATION WHERE THEY CAN LOOK AT THE PEER

NATIONAL RECOGNIZED.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. SO THERE ARE -- I THOUGHT THAT

THERE WERE TWO, BECAUSE I WAS DOING A LITTLE BIT OF RESEARCH ON THIS. IT

LOOKS LIKE THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE. SO MY QUESTION IS, WHAT DO WE DO

IF THEY DON'T AGREE, THOSE DIFFERENT GUIDELINES? DOESN'T THAT PRESENT A

PROBLEM?

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: SO WE DON'T SEE A

CONFLICT BECAUSE THEY ALL SEE THE PEER REVIEW -- THEY'RE ALL PART OF THE

SAME PEER REVIEW GROUP, AND SO THEY ALL LOOK AT ALL THE SAME -- OF THE

PEER EVIDENCE. SO WE JUST DON'T FORESEE A CONFLICT.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. I'M SORRY I DON'T UNDERSTAND

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THAT ANSWER. SO THEY ARE DIFFERENT. HOW ARE THEY ALL --

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: THEY'RE COMING

FROM THE SAME PEER REVIEW EVIDENCE-BASED GUIDELINES.

MS. WALSH: OKAY.

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: AND IF THEY ARE

DIFFERENT, THEY'RE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

MS. WALSH: WELL, WHAT IF UNDER ONE SET OF

GUIDELINES THERE WOULD BE A RECOMMENDATION THAT THIS TYPE OF

TREATMENT WOULD BE PROVIDED AND ANOTHER SET OF GUIDELINES WOULD NOT?

I MEAN HOW DO WE RESOLVE THAT?

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: WELL, AT THE END OF

THE DAY REMEMBER, THIS -- WE STILL LEAVE IT IN THE INSURER'S HANDS TO

DECIDE, AND THEY WILL LOOK AT THEIR OWN PEER REVIEW EVIDENCE-BASED

GUIDELINES. SO THE INSURERS STILL HAVE THE LAST SAY.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. SO LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, I WAS

LOOKING THROUGH AND IT LOOKED LIKE -- IT DID LOOK LIKE THERE WERE

DIFFERENT -- INSURANCE COMPANIES HAD DIFFERENT PROTOCOLS THAT WERE OUT

THERE. AETNA, CIGNA, BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD, THEY ALL HAD DIFFERENT

PROTOCOLS SO -- SO BASICALLY, LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE, I DON'T KNOW,

I'M JUST GOING TO PICK ONE, BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD SAYS THAT A

PARTICULAR INSTANCE WITH THIS PATIENT IT WOULD NOT BE RECOMMENDED THAT

THEY BE ABLE TO HAVE THIS TREATMENT PAID. ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY

WOULD THEN JUST GO THROUGH THE SAME PROCESS THAT THEY NORMALLY WOULD

TO CONTEST THAT OR TO SAY THAT THEY WANTED TO GET IT PAID? WOULD IT GET

RESOLVED DURING THAT KIND OF ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS OR HOW DO WE --

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HOW DO WE TAKE CARE OF THAT? BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT CALLING OUT ANY

SPECIFIC CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES IN THE BILL.

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: WELL, I MEAN AT THE

END OF THE DAY, I MEAN THEY CAN GO TO, YOU KNOW, AT LENGTH TO GO BACK

TO THE INSURERS, BECAUSE THE INSURERS WILL ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, BE --

HAVE THE LAST SAY IN TERMS OF WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO PERFORM THAT

PARTICULAR PROCEDURE ON THAT PARTICULAR PATIENT. MY QUESTION IS, I DON'T

UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ISSUE, THOUGH. THE ISSUE IS WE'RE ARGUING

PROTOCOLS, RIGHT? WE'RE ARGUING WHETHER A PATIENT WILL HAVE TWO

TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND VERSUS ANOTHER PATIENT OR VERSUS THAT SAME

PATIENT HAVING ONE TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND. WHAT IS THE HARM? THIS IS

TO PREVENT BABIES OR PREVENT PRE-TERM LABOR WHICH COULD EVENTUALLY

HAVING AN INFANT NOT, YOU KNOW, SURVIVING YOUR LIFE. SO WHAT'S THE

ISSUE HERE?

MS. WALSH: WELL, OKAY. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, BLUE

CROSS BLUE SHIELD OPPOSES THIS BILL. AND THEY SAY THAT MANDATING

COVERAGE, EVEN WHEN RECOMMENDED BY NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL

PRACTICE GUIDELINES MAY LEAD TO QUESTIONS OF COVERAGE WHEN DIFFERENT

GUIDELINES HAVE DIFFERENT RECOMMENDATIONS. AS A RESULT, SUCH TESTS

COULD BE PERFORMED INDISCRIMINATELY. SO WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: RIGHT. MY RESPONSE

IS LOOK, NATIONAL [SIC] RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES MEAN

EVIDENT [SIC] BASED CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES INFORMED BY A

SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF EVIDENCE AND ASSESSMENT OF THE BENEFITS IN RISK OF

ALTERNATIVE CARE OPTIONS INTENDED TO OPTIMIZE PATIENT CARE DEVELOPED

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BY INDEPENDENT ORGANIZATIONS OR MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

UTILIZING A TRANSPARENT METHOLOGY [SIC] AND REPORTING STRUCTURE AND

WITH A CONFLICT OF INTEREST OF POLICY. SO, YOU KNOW, TO YOUR POINT IN THE

EVENT THERE'S A CONFLICT BETWEEN NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE

GUIDELINES, THE INSURER WOULD LIKELY BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE COVERAGE

WHEN AT LEAST ONE RECOMMENDS THE SERVICE. HOWEVER, AS MENTIONED, IT

IS STILL AT THE INSURER'S DISCRETION TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

MS. WALSH: AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.

WE WANT AN INSURER TO WORK AND CONSIDER AND USE CRITERIA BASED ON

EVIDENCE AND THE UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES OF EACH PATIENT TO DETERMINE

THE BEST SCREENING MODALITY. AND I THINK THE CONCERN THAT'S BEING

RAISED BY SOME OF THE INSURERS IS THAT BY SETTING TREATMENT REQUIREMENTS

IN STATUTE, IT INTERFERES WITH THAT PROCESS. THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE

OPPOSITION OF THE BILL. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU --

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: I MEAN INSURANCE

COMPANIES, THEY JUST -- A LOT OF THEM JUST DON'T WANT TO PAY. THEY JUST

DON'T WANT TO PAY AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE -- WE'RE PUTTING SOME OF THESE

BILLS IN PLACE BECAUSE WE WANT PEOPLE TO LIVE. WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE

ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE THE RESOURCES THAT THEY

NEED. AND, AND, YOU KNOW, IN MANY CASES THE INSURANCE COMPANY

SHOULD BE PAYING. I MEAN WE'RE PAYING LOTS OF MONEY IN OUR COVERAGE

PLANS. AND SO THIS IS -- THIS IS -- THIS IS REALLY NOTHING. I MEAN THIS IS

JUST A ROUTINE TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND. THIS IS TO PREVENT, YOU KNOW,

INFANTS OR A PREGNANCY THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE AT RISK. YOU KNOW,

WE'RE TRYING TO FIND WAYS THAT MOTHERS DON'T DIE, EXPECTANT MOTHERS

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DON'T DIE OR BABIES DON'T DIE WHILE THEY'RE GOING THROUGH THIS WHOLE

JOURNEY OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD. SO I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE

EVEN ARGUING THIS. I MEAN WHEN -- WHEN WE ASK INSURANCE COMPANIES

HEY, WE NEED SCREENING FOR HPV, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A WHOLE BIG ISSUE

AROUND THAT. WE WANT THESE SCREENINGS TO PREVENT RISK, YOU KNOW.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I APPRECIATE

YOUR COMMENTS.

MADAM SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: ON THE BILL.

MS. WALSH: YOU KNOW, I WANT TO MAKE IT VERY,

VERY CLEAR TO ANYBODY LISTENING THAT I HAVE NO ISSUE AT ALL IT WITH THIS --

WITH THIS PROCEDURE. IT'S -- IT'S AN EXCELLENT PROCEDURE AND IN SOME

CASES IT REALLY CAN HELP A WOMAN TO KEEP A PREGNANCY AND TO BE ABLE TO

MAKE, YOU KNOW, BETTER HEALTH DECISIONS WHO NEED IT, OR EVEN WOMEN

WHO ARE NOT PREGNANT AND ARE TRYING TO GET PREGNANT, IT'S A GREAT

PROCEDURE. I THINK THE ONLY POINT THAT'S REALLY BEING RAISED, TRYING TO

RAISE DURING DEBATE IS THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES JUST NEED TO KNOW

WHAT THE RULES ARE, AND WHEN THE BILL IS WORDED IN A WAY THAT KIND OF

GENERALLY DEFINES WHAT A NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE

GUIDELINE WOULD BE BUT DOESN'T REALLY LAY OUT WHAT THAT GUIDELINE IS,

THERE COULD BE -- AND IT'S A MANDATE THAT'S BEING PLACED ON IT, FINE, BUT

THEY JUST NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE, AND THEIR CONCERN IS THAT IF

YOU COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE - AND THE SPONSOR INDICATED THAT THERE ARE -

DIFFERENT GUIDELINES THAT COULD MEET THAT CRITERIA AS OUTLINED IN THE BILL.

SO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE JUST SAYING, YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE GOING

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TO BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE COVERAGE BASED ON A SET OF GUIDELINES, WE

JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IF THE GUIDELINES DON'T AGREE. SO, YOU

KNOW, THAT BEING SAID, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I -- I -- I DON'T REALLY HAVE

ANY -- ANY OTHER ISSUES WITH THE BILL OTHER THAN JUST THAT CONCERN ABOUT

JUST MAKING SURE THAT IF WE'RE PLACING A REQUIREMENT FOR COVERAGE ON AN

INSURANCE COMPANY THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE

COVERING AND WHAT THEY'RE NOT. AND THE POINT REALLY THAT THEY WERE

TRYING TO MAKE, I THINK, IN THEIR OPPOSITION TO THE BILL WAS REALLY THAT,

YOU KNOW, THESE ARE UNIQUE DETERMINATIONS THAT NEED TO BE MADE

PATIENT BY PATIENT APPLYING GUIDELINE TO THE THOUGHTFUL WAY. AND THAT,

YOU KNOW, WHEN WE MANDATE THINGS DURING -- IN LEGISLATION IN SET

TREATMENT REQUIREMENTS, IT KIND OF CAN GET IN THE WAY OF DOING THAT

UNIQUE ANALYSIS ON A PER PATIENT BASIS. SO THOSE ARE THE CONCERNS AND I

THANK THE SPONSOR FOR HER ANSWERS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MADAM

SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: MS. BICHOTTE

HERMELYN.

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN: ON THE BILL. I JUST

WANTED TO KNOW THAT DURING A TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND A PREGNANCY CARE

PROVIDER PLACES A DEVICE INSIDE THE PATIENT'S VAGINAL CANAL. IN EARLY

PREGNANCY THIS ULTRASOUND HELPS TO DETECT A FETAL HEARTBEAT OR

DETERMINE HOW FAR ALONG YOU ARE IN YOUR PREGNANCY, GESTATIONAL AGE.

IMAGES FROM A TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND ARE CLEARLY IN EARLY PREGNANCY

AS COMPARED TO ABDOMINAL ULTRASOUND. A DOCTOR MIGHT RECOMMEND A

TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND DURING A PREGNANCY TO MONITOR THE HEARTBEAT OF

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

A FETUS, LOOK AT THE CERVIX FOR ANY CHANGES THAT COULD LEAD TO

COMPLICATIONS SUCH AS MISCARRIAGE OR PREMATURE DELIVERY, EXAMINE THE

PLACENTA FOR ABNORMALITIES AND IDENTIFY THE SOURCE OF ANY ABNORMAL

BLEEDING, DIAGNOSE OF POSSIBLE MISCARRIAGE AND IT'S TO ALSO TO CONFIRM

AN EARLY PREGNANCY.

BUT I WANT TO TAKE THIS TIME TO -- TO SHARE WITH YOU A

HEARTBREAKING STORY OF CAROLYN SPIRO-LEVITT AND HER HUSBAND JOSH.

THEY LOST THEIR SON ELI PARKER LEVITT WHEN HE WAS BORN PREMATURELY AT

23 WEEKS IN 2020. AT 20 WEEKS DURING A ROUTINE APPOINTMENT,

CAROLYN WAS TOLD THAT SHE WAS THREE CENTIMETERS DILATED, NEARLY FULLY

EFFACE AND ABOUT TO GO INTO LABOR DUE TO A CONDITION, CRUELLY NAMED

INCOMPETENT CERVIX. AND UP UNTIL THAT POINT, THE LEVITTS BELIEVED THAT

EVERYTHING WAS FINE WITH THEIR PREGNANCY. THIS CONDITION CAN BE

TREATED AND ADDRESSED IF CAUGHT IN TIME THROUGH EASY TO CONDUCT

TESTING. TRAGICALLY BECAUSE CAROLYN WAS NOT TESTED FOR THE CONDITION

EARLIER IN HER PREGNANCY, THEIR SON ELI PASSED AWAY SHORTLY AFTER BEING

BORN. THIS IS VITAL, LIFESAVING LEGISLATION THAT WILL PROTECT MOTHERS BY

REQUIRING INSURANCE COMPANIES TO COVER IMPORTANT PREVENTATIVE

MEDICAL PROCEDURES FOR PREGNANT MOMS IN NEW YORK, ESPECIALLY AS WE

FACE MATERNAL MORTALITY CRISIS. WE'VE HEARD THE GROSS STATISTICS ON

RECORD-HIGH INFANT AND MATERNAL HEALTH COMPLICATIONS AND WE KNOW

THAT MANY MOTHERS, ESPECIALLY BLACK MOTHERS ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY AT

RISK. I KNOW THIS ALL TOO WELL AS SOMEONE WHO LOST MY FIRST CHILD JONAH

BICHOTTE COWAN, DUE TO NEGLIGENT HEALTHCARE. WE PASSED A LAW IN HIS

NAME TO MAKE MOTHERHOOD SAFER AND I'VE TAKEN THE LEAD IN THE FIGHT

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

EVER SINCE. NOW I'M HERE WITH MY HEALTHY BABY BOY DANIEL, FOUR YEARS

-- SIX YEARS LATER AND NOW OUR CRISIS HAS ONLY WORSENED. INFANT

MORTALITY RISEN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN TWO DECADES AND THE VAST MAJORITY

OF THESE DEATHS ARE PREVENTABLE. AN INCOMPETENT CERVIX ALSO KNOWN AS

CERVICAL INSUFFICIENCY OCCURS WHEN WEAK CERVICAL TISSUES CAUSES OR

CONTRIBUTES TO PREMATURE BIRTH OR LOSS OF AN OTHERWISE HEALTHY

PREGNANCY. BEFORE PREGNANCY A WOMAN'S CERVIX, THE LOWER PART OF THE

UTERUS THAT CONNECTS TO THE VAGINA, IS NORMALLY CLOSED AND RIGID. AS

PREGNANCY PROGRESSES AND A WOMAN PREPARES TO GIVE BIRTH, THE CERVIX

GRADUALLY SOFTENS, DECREASES IN LENGTH AND OPENED. IF A WOMAN HAS AN

INCOMPETENT CERVIX, THE CERVIX MIGHT BEGIN TO OPEN TOO SOON CAUSING

PREMATURE BIRTH. PERFORMING A TEST AND EXAMINATION ON ALL EXPECTING

WOMEN, HELPS TO ENSURE BETTER BIRTH OUTCOMES. CERVICAL INCOMPETENCE

IS A KNOWN RISK FACTOR TO PRE-TERM BIRTH AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FIVE

PERCENT OF EXTREMELY PRE-TERM DELIVERIES. THE UNITED STATES IS ONE OF

THE MOST DANGEROUS DEVELOPED NATIONS FOR PREGNANT MOTHERS AND THEIR

BABIES. NEARLY TEN PERCENT OF ALL BABIES IN THE U.S. ARE BORN

PREMATURELY. PREMATURE BIRTH AND ITS COMPLICATIONS ARE THE LEADING

CAUSE OF DEATH IN BABIES IN THE U.S. OF THE BABIES WHO SURVIVE, MANY

HAVE LONGSTANDING HEALTH PROBLEMS INCLUDING CEREBRAL PALSY,

DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES, CHRONIC LUNG DISEASE AND ISSUES WITH VISION

AND HEARING. ACCORDING TO THE CDC, MORE THAN 80 PERCENT OF THE

PREGNANCY-RELATED DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE PREVENTATIVE --

PREVENTABLE, AND WITH LIFESAVING MEDICAL PROCEDURES OUT OF REACH FOR

SO MANY, EVEN THOSE WITH INSURANCE, WE ALL -- WE ARE WELL PAST DUE TO

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PASS THIS LAW AND MAKE MOTHERHOOD SAFER FOR ALL. ONE OUT OF EVERY

200 MOTHERS GOES THROUGH THIS TRAUMA OF LOSING A CHILD DUE TO

PREVENTABLE COMPLICATIONS. WE SHOULD BE INSTITUTING PREVENTATIVE

MEASURES TO REDUCE THIS. ULTRASOUNDS ARE IMPORTANT. HIGHLY

ENCOURAGE PRECAUTIONARY AND PREVENTATIVE PROCEDURES ROUTINELY

PERFORMED ON MOTHERS. WE GIVE ULTRASOUNDS TO CHECK ON BABIES, AGAIN

HEARTBEAT, MUSCLE TONE, MOVEMENT AND OVERALL DEVELOPMENT. TO

CHECK IF YOU'RE PREGNANT WITH TWINS, TRIPLETS, OR MORE. TO CHECK IF

YOUR BABY IS THE HEAD FIRST POSITION BEFORE BIRTH, TO EXAMINE YOUR

OVARIES AND UTERUS FOR HEALTH ISSUES. IT IS INFURIATING THAT INSURANCE

WILL NOT COVER A PROCEDURE THAT CAN SAVE A MOM AND HER CHILD'S LIFE. IT

IS AN INSULT TO OUR COMMUNITIES FACING DEVASTATING HEALTH

CONSEQUENCES. TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS ARE GENERALLY CONSIDERED SAFE

AND HAVE NO KNOWN HARMFUL EFFECTS AND ARE ROUTINE PROCEDURES.

IN NEW YORK THEY ARE OUT OF REACH FOR COUNTLESS

EXPECTANT MOMS, ESPECIALLY THOSE MOST AT RISK. THAT'S WHY I'M URGING

THE ASSEMBLY TO PASS THIS LAW TO MAKE VITAL TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS

AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE FOR PREGNANT PERSONS IN NEW YORK. WE ASK IN

THE ASSEMBLY TO VOTE THIS NOT ONLY IN THE NAME OF MY LATE SON JONAH

BICHOTTE COWAN, BUT IN THE NAME OF WHY I INTRODUCED THIS BILL, IN THE

NAME OF THE LATE ELI PARKER LEVITT. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: THANK YOU.

MR. DIPIETRO.

MR. DIPIETRO: ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: ON THE BILL.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. DIPIETRO: THANK YOU, MS. SPEAKER. I RISE IN

SUPPORT OF THIS BILL. I HAVE THE ULTRASOUND BILL HERE IN THE ASSEMBLY,

WHICH SAYS THAT BEFORE A PREGNANCY EVERY WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE

THE ULTRASOUND. DID YOU KNOW THAT OVER 85 TO 90 PERCENT, 85 PERCENT

APPROXIMATELY OF WOMEN WHO SEE AN ULTRASOUND WILL KEEP THE BABY.

BUT DID YOU KNOW A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF MEN WHEN THEY SEE AN

ULTRASOUND WANT TO KEEP THE BABY. UNFORTUNATELY, PLANNED PARENTHOOD

AND OTHER PRO-ABORTION INDUSTRIES WILL NOT ALLOW AN ULTRASOUND. I STAND

BEHIND ANY BILL THAT PROVIDES ULTRASOUNDS TO WOMEN. THIS BILL NO

DOUBT WILL CONVINCE WOMEN TO KEEP A BABY IF THEY HAVE DOUBTS. THIS

WILL HELP. THIS WILL SAVE ONE MORE BABY'S LIFE, MAYBE A LOT MORE. I AM

ALL FOR ULTRASOUNDS. THEY HAVE PROVEN TO BE EFFECTIVE. I ALSO HAVE THE

HEARTBEAT BILL. AND I'M JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE WITH THIS ULTRASOUND

BILL I'D LOVE TO SEE MY ULTRASOUND BILL GET PUT ON THE FLOOR AND PASS AND

I'D LOVE TO GIVE IT TO ANY ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES.

I WAS AT A SCHOOL LAST WEEK DOING A GOVERNMENT CLASS

TO HIGH SCHOOLERS, AND MY POSITION ON LIFE CAME UP AND I EXPLAINED IT,

BUT I DID HAVE ONE HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR GIRL START ARGUING WITH ME AND

TELLING ME THAT LIFE DOESN'T BEGIN UNTIL THE 22ND WEEK OF PREGNANCY.

AND I TRIED VERY PASSIONATELY TO EXPLAIN TO HER THAT IT DOES AND I

EXPLAINED ABOUT THE ULTRASOUND. I SAID IF YOU COULD SEE THE ULTRASOUND,

I CAN GIVE YOU SCIENTIFIC FACTS WHERE THE HEARTBEAT IS WITHIN SIX TO EIGHT

DAYS.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: MR. DIPIETRO, CAN YOU

CONFINE YOUR REMARKS TO THIS BILL. PLEASE?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. DIPIETRO: I AM, THIS IS EXACTLY ABOUT THE BILL.

THIS IS ABOUT ULTRASOUND AND ABOUT HOW IT AFFECTS PEOPLE'S IDEAS AND

THEIR MINDSET OF PREGNANCY. THAT'S WHAT THIS DOES. THIS ULTRASOUND

BILL, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES, TO HELP WOMEN AND TO HELP THEM MAKE

THAT DECISION. SO PLEASE, MAY I PROCEED? SO THE GIRL AT THIS SCHOOL

WHEN I TOLD HER ABOUT ULTRASOUNDS AND HOW THEY AFFECTED, SHE DIDN'T

WANT TO HEAR IT. SO I'M HOPING WITH THIS BILL, WITH MY BILL, THAT WE

HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE LIVES, TO CHANGE THE MINDSET OF WOMEN

AND MEN SO THAT WHEN THEY SEE THIS ULTRASOUND AND THIS BILL WILL HELP

SAVE POSSIBLY SOME LIVES BUT ALSO SOME ATTITUDES AND ALSO SOME IDEAS

THAT PEOPLE HAVE ABOUT PREGNANCY.

SO I WILL BE VOTING FOR THIS BILL. I WOULD ASK THAT ONE

OF MY COLLEAGUES PICK UP MY ULTRASOUND BILL ALSO SINCE THEY PRETTY

MUCH DO THE SAME THING. THEY HELP WOMEN MAKE DECISIONS AND HELP

IN THEIR HEALTH. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: THANK YOU.

MR. LAVINE.

MR. LAVINE: THIS IS A REAL GOOD BILL, AND I JUST

WANT TO THANK EVERYONE WHO HAS SPOKEN WITH RESPECT TO THIS BILL. AND

I'M SPEAKING ON THE BILL. AND IN CONCLUSION, I JUST WANT TO SIMPLY SAY

THAT I HAD CERTAINLY WANTED TO MAKE A NICE CONTRIBUTION TO PLANNED

PARENTHOOD BUT IT HAD JUST ESCAPED MY MIND, BUT I DO WANT TO THANK THE

-- ALL WHO SPOKE ABOUT PLANNED PARENTHOOD TODAY BECAUSE WHEN

SESSION IS OVER THIS EVENING AND I'M NOT IN THE LOB OR IN THE STATE

CAPITOL, I'LL BE MAKING ANOTHER NICE BIG CONTRIBUTION TO PLANNED

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PARENTHOOD.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: THANK YOU.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST,

2026.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 10, RULES REPORT NO. 189, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09213-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 189, FAHY, DINOWITZ, WEPRIN, GLICK, COLTON, LUCAS,

SIMON, SHIMSKY, SLATER, BURDICK, FORREST, THIELE, EPSTEIN, L.

ROSENTHAL, SIMONE, SEAWRIGHT. AN ACT TO AMEND THE NAVIGATION LAW,

IN RELATION TO FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE LIABILITY OF A MAJOR FACILITY

OR VESSEL.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: AN EXPLANATION HAS

BEEN REQUESTED, MS. FAHY.

MS. FAHY: THANK YOU. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER

[SIC]. THIS BILL, WHICH I'VE HAD SOME VERSION OF FOR I THINK ALMOST TEN

YEARS, IT AMENDS THE LIABILITY PROVISIONS OF ARTICLE 12 OF THE NEW YORK

NAVIGATION LAW, WHICH ARE SECTIONS OF THE LAW CONTAINING

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTIONS AND OIL SPILL COMPENSATION FUND. ARTICLE 12

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF THIS LAW ALREADY REQUIRES THAT ANY ENTITY HAVE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OIL

DISCHARGE AND ARE HELD LIABLE. THIS -- THIS BILL, THOUGH, IT REQUIRES THAT

THEY SHOW THAT THEY HAVE FINANCIAL SURETY TO COVER ANY TYPE OF ACCIDENT

OR REMEDIATION SHOULD THERE BE A SPILL OR ACCIDENT.

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER. WILL

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER SIMON: WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MS. FAHY: SURE.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MS. FAHY.

DOES THIS BILL EXPAND ITS SCOPE TO COVER PETROLEUM STORAGE FACILITIES

THAT WERE NOT PREVIOUSLY COVERED?

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND SO AREN'T THESE PETROLEUM

STORAGE FACILITIES ALREADY REGULATED BY THE DEC?

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND AREN'T THEY ALREADY CONTAINED

WITHIN EARTH AND BERMS TO PREVENT ANY SPILLAGE FROM LEAVING THE

PREMISES?

MS. FAHY: YES, BUT THIS IS TO DEMONSTRATE -- AGAIN,

THIS IS TO DEMONSTRATE INCREASED -- WELL, IT'S INCREASED ACCOUNTABILITY

AND IT MAKES SURE THAT IN ADDITION TO BEING LEGALLY LIABLE THAT THEY HAVE

THE SURETY AS WELL.

MR. GOODELL: AM I CORRECT THAT THESE PETROLEUM

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

STORAGE FACILITIES HAVE HAD ONLY MINOR SPILLS IN THE PAST, THAT WE HAVEN'T

HAD ANY MAJOR SPILLS; IS THAT CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MINOR ONES, BUT

AS WE KNOW MANY VESSELS HAVE HAD MORE -- MORE PROBLEMS.

MR. GOODELL: AND WITH REGARD TO THE SURETY

REQUIREMENTS, WHAT ARE THE CURRENT REQUIREMENTS FOR PETROLEUM STORAGE

FACILITIES?

MS. FAHY: THE $25 A GALLON.

MR. GOODELL: PER GALLON OR --

MS. FAHY: PER BARREL. SORRY, PER BARREL.

MR. GOODELL: THAT'S WHAT THIS WOULD IMPOSE,

CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: YES. THIS -- THIS WOULD HAVE THE

INFLATION ADJUSTED ANNUALLY WHERE APPROPRIATE.

MR. GOODELL: AND THE -- THAT AMOUNT WOULD BE

$25 PER BARREL PLUS INFLATION, RIGHT?

MS. FAHY: PLUS INFLATION.

MR. GOODELL: AND WHAT IS THE CURRENT CRITERIA FOR

OIL STORAGE FACILITIES?

MS. FAHY: THAT'S IT.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, OF COURSE, WE HAVE OIL

STORAGE FACILITIES AROUND THE STATE. THAT'S HOW WE GET GASOLINE IN OUR

CARS, RIGHT?

MS. FAHY: YEP.

MR. GOODELL: WHAT IMPACT WILL THAT HAVE ON THE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

GAS PRICES?

MS. FAHY: I WOULD THINK IT SHOULD BE NEGLIGIBLE IF

ANY, BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS THIS IS STRENGTHENING ACCOUNTABILITY. IT'S

VERY FOCUSED ON PREVENTION AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S FACTORING IN ANY RISKS

OF THE LAYERS OF RESPONSIBILITY WE THINK WILL BE HELPFUL HERE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, OF COURSE, EACH GAS STATION

THAT WE PASS HAS ANYWHERE FROM 15- TO 30,000 GALLONS OF UNDERGROUND

STORAGE TANKS FILLED -- HOPEFULLY FILLED WITH PETROLEUM PRODUCTS. DOES

THIS APPLY TO THEM?

MS. FAHY: NO, UNLIKELY. IT SHOULD BE MORE THAN

400,000 GALLONS. THESE ARE MAJOR FACILITIES.

MR. GOODELL: CAN WE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ITS

IMPACT ON RAILROADS?

MS. FAHY: IMPACT ON?

MR. GOODELL: RAILROADS.

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. GOODELL: SO WHAT -- WHAT DOES THIS IMPOSE

AS IT RELATES TO RAILROADS?

MS. FAHY: IT REQUIRES DISCLOSURE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW THE AMOUNT OF THE BOND FOR

RAILROADS, AM I CORRECT THAT IT'S BASED ON THE WORSE CASE SCENARIO?

MS. FAHY: YES, AND AS ESTABLISHED BY DEC.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. AND CAN YOU TELL ME, HAVE

WE EVER EXPERIENCED IN NEW YORK STATE A OIL SPILL BY A RAILROAD THAT

WASN'T CLEANED UP BY THE RAILROAD?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: IN NEW YORK STATE WE'VE HAD A NUMBER

OF SPILLS, BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN SOMEWHAT CONTAINED. KEEP IN

MIND, HOWEVER, WE'VE HAD AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF SPILLS AND

ACCIDENTS, AND WHEN I FIRST DID THIS BILL IT WAS ACTUALLY BASED ON SOME

HORRIFIC ACCIDENTS PARTICULARLY THE LAC-M�GANTIC IN QUEBEC, CANADA

WHERE 47 PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND THE RAILROAD WAS INSURED BUT ONLY TO

THE TUNE OF $25 MILLION AND IT WAS A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR DISASTER.

WE'VE SEEN A SIMILAR INCIDENT IN EAST PALETINE [SIC], OHIO AND WHILE

WE'VE HAD -- WE'VE HAD A NUMBER OF INCIDENCES HERE IN NEW YORK JUST

IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS. NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC, BUT THERE

WAS ONE, FOR INSTANCE, IN EAST AURORA JUST IN 2020, A SMALL VILLAGE IN

ERIE COUNTY, WHERE THERE WAS A DERAILMENT. AND AGAIN, IT WAS -- THE

TRAIN WAS FILLED WITH PROPANE AND THEY HADN'T EVEN PROVIDED THE CORRECT

NUMBER OF CARS OR CONTENT. THAT TRAIN HAPPENED TO BE ON ITS WAY TO

ALBANY AND WAS TRANSPORTING HIGHLY FLAMMABLE PETROL CHEMICALS. AT

THAT TIME SENATOR SCHUMER DID CALL ON THE FEDERAL RAILROAD

ADMINISTRATION AND CONDUCTED AN INVESTIGATION AND CALLED ON BETTER

SAFETY MEASURES. SO WHILE WE ARE NOT ADDRESSING THAT, WE ARE ENSURING

THAT THEY HAVE THE SURETY OR THE INSURANCE TO COVER ANY CATASTROPHIC

ACCIDENT AND MAKE SURE THAT WE, YOU KNOW, WHICH WE THINK WILL HELP

WITH BETTER SAFETY STANDARDS. SO WE'VE HAD A NUMBER, YOU KNOW,

THERE'S FOUR OR FOUR JUST IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. AGAIN, NONE OF THEM

HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC, BUT CERTAINLY AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IN

CANADA WE HAVE SEEN CATASTROPHIC INCIDENCES.

MR. GOODELL: WELL, THANK YOU FOR OUTLINING THE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SITUATIONS WHERE THERE'S BEEN A SPILL. MY QUESTION IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

MY QUESTION IS, HAS THERE EVER BEEN A SITUATION IN NEW YORK STATE

WHERE THE RAILROAD FAILED TO CLEAN UP THE SPILL OR FAILED TO PAY THE

DAMAGES? HAS THERE EVER BEEN SUCH A SITUATION WHERE THE RAILROAD

DIDN'T PAY, AND IF SO WHEN AND WHERE?

MS. FAHY: AT THIS POINT, THE INCIDENCES I

MENTIONED WERE ALL ADDRESSED BY THE RAILROADS. BUT LET'S KEEP IN MIND

THOSE RAILROADS WERE OFTEN FROM OUT-OF-STATE, THEY TRAVEL ACROSS THE

COUNTRY, THEY TRAVEL IN FROM CANADA AND MORE. THERE HAVE BEEN

INCIDENCES, AND WHILE THIS ADDRESSES NEW YORK AND WE HAVEN'T HAD

SPECIFIC INCIDENTS IN NEW YORK, THIS IS ABOUT ENSURING THAT THOSE TRAINS,

ONCE THEY HIT NEW YORK THEY ARE FULLY INSURED TO ADDRESS THE LIABILITY

OR COVER THE LIABILITY THAT THEY NOW ALREADY CARRY. SO WHILE NO SPECIFIC

INCIDENCES IN NEW YORK, WE CERTAINLY HAVE SEEN THOSE AROUND THE

COUNTRY.

MR. GOODELL: YOU MENTIONED SEVERAL SPILLS

AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES. IN ANY OF THOSE SPILLS, DID

THE RAILROAD FAIL TO CLEAN IT UP OR PAY THE DAMAGES?

MS. FAHY: WELL, WE KNOW IN EAST OHIO OR -- SORRY,

EAST PALETINE [SIC], OHIO WE KNOW THAT THAT IS VERY MUCH TIED UP IN

LITIGATION, AND IN CERTAINLY IN CANADA, NOT THAT FAR IN QUEBEC, CERTAINLY

THEY -- THEY FAILED. AND SINCE THEN -- SINCE THEN I SHOULD NOTE, THAT

CANADA HAS INCREASED THOSE LIABILITY COSTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS

SURETY OR BONDS TO COVER ANY LIABILITY. NEW JERSEY HAS DONE SO,

CALIFORNIA AND OTHERS HAVE DONE SO AS A RESULT OF SOME OF THESE MAJOR

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACCIDENTS.

MR. GOODELL: NEW YORK HAS, OF COURSE, ITS OIL

SPILL PREVENTION CONTROL AND COMPENSATION TRUST FUND.

MS. FAHY: YEP.

MR. GOODELL: HOW MUCH IS IN THAT FUND

CURRENTLY?

MS. FAHY: IT'S IN THE TENS OF MILLIONS -- I DON'T HAVE

AN UPDATED NUMBER ON THAT, BUT IT IS -- IT CERTAINLY IS NOT, NOT FAIR TO

ADDRESS ANY CATASTROPHIC ACCIDENTS.

MR. GOODELL: BUT WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IS IN

THAT.

MS. FAHY: I DON'T HAVE AN -- I DON'T HAVE AN

UPDATED NUMBER. IT'S CERTAINLY NOT IN THE BILLIONS. THE LAST TIME I

CHECKED I THOUGHT IT WAS IN THE TENS OF MILLIONS, BUT I DON'T HAVE AN

UPDATED NUMBER. NOTHING --

MR. GOODELL: NOW WE ALSO --

MS. FAHY: -- NOTHING TO ADDRESS ANYTHING LIKE THIS,

AGAIN, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE PUSHING SOME TYPE OF INSURANCE, SURETY

BOND OR OTHER LETTER OF CREDIT.

MR. GOODELL: AM I CORRECT THAT THAT FUND

CONTAINS MORE THAN THE INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE CONTAINED IN

THIS?

MS. FAHY: I'M SORRY, MR. GOODELL. WHAT WAS THAT?

MR. GOODELL: I WAS JUST QUESTIONING WHETHER OR

NOT THAT FUND ALREADY CONTAINS MORE IN THE FUND THAN THE INSURANCE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REQUIREMENTS IMPOSED BY THIS. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IS IN THE

FUND SO I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT QUESTION.

MS. FAHY: NO, AND REMEMBER, THE FUND IS NOT

ESTABLISHED TO COVER ALL OF THIS. THAT IS PART OF WHY WE WANT TO MAKE

SURE THAT THERE IS A FULL INSURANCE AND DEMONSTRATION OF A FULL INSURANCE

ESPECIALLY FOR ANY TYPE OF CATASTROPHIC INCIDENT.

MR. GOODELL: OF COURSE THE FEDERAL INTERSTATE

COMMERCE COMMISSION TERMINATION ACT OF 1995 DEALS SPECIFICALLY

WITH FEDERAL PREEMPTION OVER THIS AREA. THE RAILROADS HAVE SUGGESTED

THAT ANY PROVISION THAT'S INCONSISTENT WITH THE FEDERAL STANDARDS IS

CLEARLY PREEMPTED AND IN FACT, THE ICCTA, THE INTERSTATE COMMERCE

COMMISSION TERMINATION ACT AGENCY HAS INTERPRETED PREEMPTION TO

APPLY TO QUOTE, "ANY FORM OF STATE OR LOCAL PERMITTING OR

PRE-CLEARANCES BY ITS NATURE COULD BE USED TO DELAY A RAILROAD, THE

ABILITY TO CONDUCT SOME OR ALL OF ITS OPERATIONS OR PROCEED WITH

ACTIVITIES THAT THE BOARD IS AUTHORIZED." ISN'T THIS IS A STATE EFFORT TO

REQUIRE SOME TYPE OF PRECLEARANCE OR LOCAL STANDARDS THAT COULD IMPACT

ON RAILROAD TRANSPORTATIONS IN VIOLATION OF THE FEDERAL PREEMPTION?

MS. FAHY: WE HAVE REPEATEDLY LOOKED AT THE

PREEMPTION ISSUES HERE. THIS BILL IS NOT PREEMPTED. LAWS SUCH AS THE

FEDERAL LAW, THE OIL POLLUTION ACT OF 1990 OR OPA 90, SET MINIMUM

STANDARDS ON OIL PREVENTION AND SPILLS AND IT EXPLICITLY ALLOWED STATES

TO IMPOSE ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS. THIS BILL DOES NOT DIRECTLY CONFLICT

WITH ANY SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS OF THAT OR ANY FEDERAL LAW AND IT ALLOWS

US TO ADD LAYERS OF PROTECTION AND RESPONSIBILITY. AGAIN, THIS -- WE'VE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BEEN -- WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD QUITE A BIT ON THIS BILL AND THAT IS

WHY WE'RE ADDRESSING JUST THE INSURANCE PIECE OF IT OR THE SURETY PIECE

OF IT. THIS IS TO REENFORCE WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

AND AS -- AS I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE, VERY MUCH IT IS A STATE'S RIGHTS

ISSUE TO PROTECT OUR OWN NATURAL RESOURCES, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE

NOT COVERED BY FEDERAL REGULATION. AND AGAIN, WE'VE SEEN TOO MANY

EXAMPLES, TOO MANY NEAR CATASTROPHIC DISASTERS AND THAT IS AGAIN WHY

THIS BILL DOES DISCUSS A PREPAREDNESS FOR WORST CASE SCENARIOS, BECAUSE

WE'VE SEEN WORSE CASE SCENARIOS EVEN IF WE HAVEN'T SEEN THEM HERE IN

NEW YORK.

MR. GOODELL: NOW THIS SECTION OF THE LAW IS

CONTAINED IN THE NAVIGATION LAW.

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND IT REQUIRES THE DEPARTMENT TO

CALCULATE THE REASONABLE WORSE CASE SCENARIO.

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. GOODELL: WHICH DEPARTMENT WOULD BE DOING

THAT, THAT ANALYSIS UNDER THE NAVIGATION LAW?

MS. FAHY: THE INTENT IS DEC. THERE IS

CONSULTATION LANGUAGE I THINK WITH DFS.

MR. GOODELL: OKAY. AND IS THERE ANY CAP ON THAT

POTENTIAL LIABILITY THAT RAILROADS WOULD HAVE TO COVER?

MS. FAHY: IT'S A DISCLOSURE AND THAT IS AGAIN PART OF

THE NEGOTIATION ON THIS.

MR. GOODELL: BUT I MEAN WE HAVE A CAP, RIGHT,

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ON VESSELS, THAT'S ONE MILLION. IS THERE ANY CAP ON RAILROAD LIABILITY?

MS. FAHY: THEY JUST -- THERE IS NO CAP BUT THEY

HAVE TO DISCLOSE WHAT THEY HAVE.

MR. GOODELL: IF A RAILROAD IS UNWILLING TO --

MS. FAHY: IT'S BASED ON WASHINGTON -- STATE OF

WASHINGTON LAW IN 2018 WHERE WE HAD SOME EXAMPLES OF THIS.

MR. GOODELL: IF A RAILROAD FAILS OR REFUSES TO POST

A BOND TO COVER A WORSE CASE SCENARIO, WHAT IS THE REMEDY?

MS. FAHY: IF THEY FAIL, THE BILL EXPLICITLY NOTES THAT

IT WOULD BE UNLAWFUL. THE BILL EXPLICITLY NOTES THAT IT WOULD BE

UNLAWFUL TO OPERATE A VESSEL THAT IS NON-COMPLIANT WITH THE SURETY OF

REQUIREMENTS LAID OUT IN THIS BILL.

MR. GOODELL: DOES THAT MEAN THEN IF A RAILROAD IS

REFUSING TO PROVIDE A SURETY OR INSURANCE POLICY FOR A WORSE CASE

SCENARIO THAT THE STATE OF NEW YORK WOULD SHUT DOWN A RAILROAD?

MS. FAHY: STATE OF NEW YORK HAS THE ABILITY TO --

TO CITE THEM. YEAH, TO MAKE IT -- YEAH. I MEAN THEY HAVE TO SHOW THAT

REQUIREMENT JUST AS WE HAVE OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN PEOPLE -- AGAIN,

AS I MENTIONED, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OUR OWN NATURAL RESOURCES.

AND WE ARE ADDRESSING THE -- JUST AS WE CAN INSPECT THOSE TRAINS WHEN

THEY COME INTO THESE BORDERS AS WE DO, THIS IS ANOTHER REQUIREMENT THAT

WOULD BE ADDED ON TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN COVER. THEY ALREADY HAVE

THE LIABILITY. THIS IS SHOWING THAT THEY WOULD HAVE THE SURETY. SO THE

LEGAL LIABILITY IS THERE. THIS IS REQUIRING THE SURETY.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ON THE BILL.

THANK YOU, MS. FAHY.

MS. FAHY: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF NEW

YORK STATE INCREASING THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS. IT'S AN EXPENSIVE

SOLUTION LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM. AS MY COLLEAGUE NOTED WE HAVE NO

EXAMPLES IN THE 250+ YEARS OF NEW YORK STATE WHERE A RAILROAD

CAUSED A SPILL OF OIL WHERE THEY DIDN'T CLEAN IT UP AND PAY FOR IT. NOW

THE RAILROADS THAT ARE GOING THROUGH NEW YORK STATE, WHETHER IT'S

CONRAIL OR NORFOLK SOUTHERN OR ANY OTHER RAILROAD, THEIR BALANCE SHEET

IS BETTER THAN OURS. THEY HAVE MORE CASH. THEY HAVE A BETTER CASH

FLOW AND THEIR BALANCE SHEET IS BETTER THAN THE STATE OF NEW YORK. WE

HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM. THEIR BALANCE SHEET IS BETTER THAN OURS.

WE ALREADY HAVE A REQUIREMENT IN TERMS OF A TRUST FUND TO BACK IT UP IF

FOR SOME REASON SOMETHING WENT AWRY, AND WE ALREADY HAVE FEDERAL

STANDARDS. AND AS MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT, UNDER THIS BILL, IF A

RAILROAD WAS UNWILLING TO POST A BOND OR A SURETY WHICH COSTS MONEY

WHICH IS THEN PASSED ON TO THE CUSTOMERS, WHICH THEN RESULTS IN HIGHER

PRICES FOR CONSUMERS, IF THEY DIDN'T DO THAT, MY COLLEAGUE SUGGESTED WE

COULD SHUT DOWN THE RAILROAD. WOULDN'T THAT CREATE INTERESTING SUPPLY

CHALLENGES. NOW JUST BECAUSE WE CAN IMPOSE ADDITIONAL COST ON

CONSUMERS THAT USE RAILROADS DOESN'T MEAN WE OUGHT TO DO IT. THIS IS

THANKFULLY PREEMPTED BY FEDERAL REGULATIONS BECAUSE THE FEDERAL

GOVERNMENT HAS SAID BECAUSE INTERSTATE RAILROADS ARE SUCH A VITAL PART

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF OUR NATIONAL ECONOMY, STATES CAN'T ENACT LAWS THAT INTERFERE WITH THAT

INTERSTATE COMMERCE. THANK GOODNESS. THIS WOULD ALSO, BY THE WAY,

REQUIRE THE RAILROADS TO DISCLOSE ALL THEIR CONTRACTS FOR INSURANCE

COVERAGE AND REINSURANCE AND SURETIES, SOME OF WHICH MAY HAVE

CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THEY DON'T WANT TO SHARE WITH THEIR

COMPETITORS, WHETHER IT'S TRUCKING COMPANIES OR OTHER RAILROADS. SO IF

WE HAVEN'T HAD A PROBLEM IN OVER 200 AND SOME YEARS, SINCE THE

RAILROADS WERE BUILT IN THIS COUNTRY, IF THE RAILROADS' BALANCE SHEET IS

BETTER THAN OURS AS THE STATE OF NEW YORK, IF THEY ARE ALREADY REQUIRED

UNDER FEDERAL REGULATIONS TO CARRY APPROPRIATE LIABILITY COVERAGE, WE

DON'T NEED TO INCREASE THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN NEW YORK STATE

AND HAVE THOSE COSTS PASSED ON TO OUR CONSUMERS WHO ARE HOPING THAT

AT SOME POINT IN OUR CAREER WE HELP REDUCE THEIR COST RATHER THAN

INCREASE THEIR COST OF LIVING IN NEW YORK.

FOR THAT REASON I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT, BUT AGAIN, I

THANK MY COLLEAGUE FOR HER ANSWERS AND HER INSIGHTS. THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. FAHY.

MS. FAHY: JUST A QUICK RESPONSE ON THAT. WHILE I

APPRECIATE THAT IT MAY BE RARE THAT NEW YORK WANTS TO BE PROACTIVE

INSTEAD OF REACTIVE, I DO THINK THAT THIS IS IMPORTANT TO BE PROACTIVE

HERE BECAUSE -- BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE HORRIFIC ACCIDENTS INCLUDING THE

ONE JUST ONE YEAR AGO IN EAST PALETINE [SIC], OHIO WHERE COSTS ARE NOW

ALREADY OVER $1 BILLION AND 115,000 GALLONS OF VINYL CHLORIDE OF

HAZARDOUS -- SEPARATE HAZARDOUS MATERIAL, NOT PETROLEUM. WE ARE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FOCUSED ON PETROLEUM PRODUCTS, BUT OTHER HAZARDOUS MATERIALS ENDED

UP IN THEIR WATERWAYS THERE IN OHIO. WE -- IN LAC-M�GANTIC AGAIN, THE

RAILROAD THERE AFTER KILLING 47 PEOPLE AND DEVASTATING AN ENTIRE TOWN

WITH A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COST, THE RAILROAD WENT BANKRUPT AND ONLY

HAD 2,500 -- 25 MILLION IN INSURANCE. WE HAVE HAD -- THE EPA

ESTIMATES THAT WE HAVE HAD SOME TYPE OF TRAIN CHEMICAL ACCIDENTS

EVERY -- A COUPLE, ONE EVERY A FEW DAYS TO A WEEK, AND IN 2022 THERE

WERE 188 ACCIDENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY, 177 IN 2021. I THINK THE

THOUGHT THAT WE MIGHT BE PROACTIVE HERE. AGAIN, THE LIABILITY IS ALREADY

ON THE PART OF THE RAILROADS. THIS IS MAKING SURE THAT THAT LIABILITY IS

COVERED SO THAT THEY CAN OR DEMONSTRATE THERE THAT THEY WOULD BE

FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE VIA INSURANCE SURETY BONDS OR LETTERS OF CREDIT.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 120TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. HOPEFULLY WE'RE

ON THE RIGHT TRACK ON THIS BILL. THE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY

OPPOSED, BUT CERTAINLY THOSE WHO WANT TO HEAD ON A DIFFERENT TRACK CAN

VOTE YES. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. SOLAGES.

MS. SOLAGES: THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THOSE WHO CHOO -- CHOO -- CHOOSE TO VOTE IN

THE NEGATIVE CAN DO SO AT THEIR DESKS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

THANK YOU BOTH.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 11, RULES REPORT NO. 197, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: SENATE NO. S09379, RULES REPORT NO.

179, SENATOR HARCKHAM (BURDICK, L. ROSENTHAL, COLTON, SEAWRIGHT,

OTIS, THIELE--A09712). AN ACT TO AMEND THE ENVIRONMENTAL

CONSERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING THE APPLICATION OF

PESTICIDES TO CERTAIN LOCAL FRESHWATER WETLANDS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. BURDICK.

MR. BURDICK: CERTAINLY, THANK YOU. THIS BILL

WOULD ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO PROHIBIT THE APPLICATION OF CERTAIN

PESTICIDES FOR FRESHWATER WETLANDS LINKED TO DRINKING WATER OR CLASS A

WATER BODIES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SIMPSON.

MR. SIMPSON: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

MR. BURDICK: CERTAINLY.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK YIELDS,

SIR.

MR. SIMPSON: GOOD AFTERNOON. WE'RE -- WE'RE

HERE AGAIN ON THIS BILL. THIS IS -- I THINK IT'S BEEN BEFORE US TWICE

ALREADY, THIS IS THE THIRD TIME; AM I CORRECT?

MR. BURDICK: NOT REALLY, BECAUSE THIS IS

SUBSTANTIALLY REVISED FROM THE PRIOR VERSIONS.

MR. SIMPSON: COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT'S CHANGED

FROM THE PRIOR BILL?

MR. BURDICK: CERTAINLY, BE HAPPY TO. THIS HAS

BEEN SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCED IN SCOPE. THE PRIOR BILLS -- THE PRIOR BILL

WOULD PERTAIN TO THE CERTAIN LIMITATIONS, ALL FRESHWATER WETLANDS WITHIN

A PARTICULAR MUNICIPALITY. WHAT THIS IS DOING IS IT NARROWS THAT DOWN

ONLY TO THOSE WETLANDS THAT ARE HYDROLOGICALLY CONNECTED TO -- TO

DRINKING WATER. IN PARTICULAR, IT WOULD STAY -- IT PROVIDES THE

PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL APPLY ONLY TO THOSE WETLANDS WHICH ARE

HYDROLOGICALLY CONNECTED TO ANY RESERVOIR, RESERVOIR STEM, CLASS A

WATERWAY OR OTHER SOURCE OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY. IN ADDITION, THERE'S

AN EXEMPTION THAT HAS BEEN ADDED TO IT; THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION

SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO PROHIBIT OR LIMIT THE USE OF APPLICATION OF

PESTICIDES IN CONNECTION WITH COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURAL ACTIVITIES, NOR TO

CONTRADICT ANY OTHER PROVISIONS OF THIS CHAPTER RELATING TO SUCH USE. SO

IT'S A SIGNIFICANT NARROWING.

MR. SIMPSON: SO COULD YOU TELL ME HOW MANY

ACRES THAT INVOLVES IN NEW YORK STATE?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BURDICK: NO, I CAN'T.

MR. SIMPSON: WELL, THERE'S ABOUT A MILLION ACRES

OR MORE. THAT'S AFTER THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE LEGISLATION THAT WAS

PASSED IN 2022, 2023, THE WETLANDS PROTECTION ACT --

MR. BURDICK: WELL, THAT'S --

MR. SIMPSON: HOLD ON A SECOND, PLEASE. MOST

WETLANDS ARE CONNECTED HYDRAULICALLY [SIC] TO MOST RESERVOIRS.

MR. BURDICK: SO IT ISN'T QUITE ACCURATE WHAT

YOU'RE STATING, BECAUSE FOR WETLANDS THAT RIGHT NOW EXCEED 12.4 ACRES,

THEY'RE REGULATED BY THE DEC. AND RIGHT NOW, FRESHWATER WETLANDS ARE

-- THAT ARE HANDLED BY LOCALITIES ARE EXCLUSIVELY THOSE THAT UNDER 12.4

ACRES. AND, IN FACT, THAT'S GONNA NARROW FURTHER IN CONNECTION WITH THE

REFERENCE THAT YOU JUST MADE -- MADE BECAUSE BEGINNING IN 2028, THAT

THRESHOLD IS GOING TO BE REDUCED TO 7.4 ACRES. SO I THINK THAT YOUR

STATEMENT IS INACCURATE.

MR. SIMPSON: THERE'S 1,400 MUNICIPALITIES. IS

THAT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT HOW MANY MUNICIPALITIES THAT COULD BE

AFFECTED BY --

MR. BURDICK: NO, I THINK THAT'S INACCURATE AS

WELL, WITH DUE -- DUE RESPECT, BECAUSE THIS ONLY PERTAINS TO THOSE

MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL

CONSERVATION LAW ENABLING STATUTE, ADOPTED A FRESHWATER WETLANDS

LAW, AND THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY 70 THAT HAVE DONE SO.

MR. SIMPSON: OKAY. SO ARTICLE -- ARE YOU

FAMILIAR WITH ARTICLE 24 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BURDICK: PRETTY WELL, YES.

MR. SIMPSON: WELL, THIS BILL AMENDS ARTICLE 24.

MR. BURDICK: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. SIMPSON: ARTICLE 24 PROVIDES FOR THE

DELEGATORY [SIC] SCHEME TO ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO ENACT LOCAL

FRESHWATER WETLAND REGULATIONS AND SEEK DELEGATION OF PERMITTING

AUTHORITY FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION. IT'S MY CONTENTION

THAT IT'S NOT FOR THE REGULATION OF PESTICIDES, WHICH IN ARTICLE 33 -- I

DON'T KNOW, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH ARTICLE 33?

MR. BURDICK: I HAVE SOME FAMILIARITY, YES.

MR. SIMPSON: ARTICLE 33 IS ACTUALLY THE SECTION OF

LAW THAT -- I'VE GOT TO FIND MY PAPER HERE -- THAT DEALS WITH THE

DELEGATION OF -- PREEMPTIVE DELEGATION AND DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE LOCAL

REGULATION. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO

SECTIONS OF LAW; ONE DEALS WITH THE WETLANDS, OTHER ONE IS WITH THE

PESTICIDE PREEMPTIVE ACTIONS. THIS DOESN'T AMEND ARTICLE 33; AM I

CORRECT?

MR. BURDICK: MR. -- I'M SORRY, BUT IS THERE A

QUESTION?

MR. SIMPSON: YES. DOES THIS AMEND ARTICLE 33?

MR. BURDICK: NO, IT DOES NOT.

MR. SIMPSON: DO YOU AGREE THAT ARTICLE 24 DEALS

WITH WETLANDS REGULATIONS AND PERMITTING OF THE AUTHORITY FROM THE

DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AND ARTICLE 33 IS ACTUALLY

THE SECTION THAT DEALS WITH PESTICIDE REGULATIONS?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BURDICK: THEY OPERATE INDEPENDENTLY, MR.

SIMPSON.

MR. SIMPSON: EXCUSE ME, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU.

MR. BURDICK: WELL, THEY OPERATE INDEPENDENTLY.

MR. SIMPSON: OKAY. I'M GOING TO MOVE ON.

WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURE?

MR. BURDICK: I THINK WE WOULD LOOK TO THE

AGRICULTURE AND MARKETS LAW FOR THAT.

MR. SIMPSON: IS THERE A DEFINITION FOR COMMERCIAL

AG, THOUGH? IT'S -- IT'S EXEMPT ACCORDING TO YOUR BILL, SIR.

MR. BURDICK: THAT WOULD BE WITHIN THE PROVINCE

OF THE DEC TO DETERMINE THE EXTENT OF THAT EXEMPTION.

MR. SIMPSON: BUT THIS REGU -- THIS -- THIS CHANGE IN

LAW IS GIVING LOCAL AUTHORITY TO A STATE POLICY DEALING WITH THE

REGULATION OF PESTICIDES. SO NOW WE'VE STILL GOT THE INTERACTION

BETWEEN TWO AGENCIES AND DECIDING WHO'S IN AND WHO'S OUT, WHO'S

AFFECTED, WHO'S NOT.

MR. BURDICK: THERE'S INTERACTION BETWEEN THE

DEC AND THE LOCALITIES WITH SOME REGULARITIES, SO I DON'T THINK THAT

THERE'S ANYTHING UNUSUAL OR INAPPROPRIATE ABOUT THAT.

MR. SIMPSON: WELL, I JUST -- I ASK THAT QUESTION

BECAUSE I'D NEVER HEARD OF THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AG AND

AGRICULTURE, SO IT RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHO WOULD BE AFFECTED ADJACENT

TO THESE WETLANDS OR, YOU KNOW, CLOSE ENOUGH TO BE AFFECTED BY A LOCAL

MUNICIPALITY MAKING THE DECISION OF WHETHER THEY COULD USE PESTICIDES

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OR NOT IN THEIR AGRICULTURAL OPERATION.

MR. BURDICK: WELL, I THINK THE -- THE LANGUAGE

HERE IS PRETTY PLAIN, AS I JUST READ, WHICH -- AND I CAN REPEAT IT -- AND

THAT IS THAT THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO

PROHIBIT OR LIMIT THE USE OR APPLICATION OF PESTICIDES IN CONNECTION WITH

COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURAL ACTIVITIES, NOR TO CONTRADICT ANY OTHER

PROVISIONS OF THIS CHAPTER RELATING TO SUCH USE. AND THIS CHAPTER, BEING

CHAPTER 24 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW, WOULD BE

CONSTRUED IN -- THROUGH THE DEC, AND I'M SURE THAT ANY CONCERNS COULD

BE RESOLVED IN THAT FASHION.

MR. SIMPSON: WHICH PESTICIDES ARE YOU -- HAVE

BEEN BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED WITH THAT YOU

WOULD WANT TO TAKE OVER -- GIVE MUNICIPALITIES THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE

DECISIONS WHETHER THEY'RE ALLOWED OR NOT?

MR. BURDICK: AT THIS POINT, YOU WOULD GO TO THE

DEFINITION OF PESTICIDES, WHICH IS IN EXISTING LAW UNDER SECTION

33-0101 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW.

MR. SIMPSON: STILL, IS THERE A SPECIFIC PESTICIDE?

IS THERE A CONCERN -- I'M TRYING TO EXTRAPOLATE WHAT THE CONCERN IS WHEN

WE'RE DEALING WITH A BILL THAT ON THE OUT -- ON THE FACE OF IT SEEMS TO

UNDERMINE THE GREAT WORK THAT WE'VE DONE IN NEW YORK THROUGH

DEC'S EFFORTS IN REGULATING PESTICIDE USE IN NEW YORK.

MR. BURDICK: SO A MUNICIPALITY MAY HAVE A

GREATER CONCERN, PARTICULARLY SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DRINKING WATER.

NOW, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THAT WE WOULD PUT PESTICIDES ON OUR

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CEREAL, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE WOULD PREFER TO HAVE PESTICIDES IN OUR

DRINKING WATER. AND I THINK THAT MUNICIPALITIES RECOGNIZE, AS SCIENCE

DOES, THE INEXTRICABLE LINK BETWEEN WETLANDS AND DRINKING WATER

BECAUSE WHATEVER LEECHES INTO THE GROUNDWATER IS GOING TO AFFECT

DRINKING WATER. AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I NARROWED THE

SCOPE OF IT, BECAUSE THE GREATEST CONCERN THAT I'VE HEARD FROM

MUNICIPALITIES IS THE IMPACT ON DRINKING WATER. WE IN THE STATE ARE

SPENDING TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO TAKE CONTAMINANTS OUT OF

DRINKING WATER. IT WOULD SEEM LOGICAL AND REASONABLE THAT WE WOULD

TAKE STEPS TO PREVENT THAT AT THE SOURCE.

MR. SIMPSON: I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO PROTECT

OUR DRINKING WATER, BUT ISN'T THAT THE JOB OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

WHO OVERSEES OUR DRINKING WATER, AS WELL AS RELEASES FROM WASTEWATER

FACILITIES AND CLEAN WATER? I MEAN, THAT'S ALL WORKING THROUGH ENVIRON

-- ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. WE HAVE

STANDARDS TO MEET FOR ALL DRINKING WATER.

MR. BURDICK: RIGHT, AND I -- I THINK THAT WE WANT

TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO ASSIST OUR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO BE IN A BETTER

POSITION TO MEET THOSE STANDARDS AND TO ENSURE THAT THOSE STANDARDS ON

A GOING-FORWARD BASIS WILL BE MET. AND --

MR. SIMPSON: SO WE ARE --

MR. BURDICK: I'M SORRY. GO AHEAD, MR. SIMPSON.

MR. SIMPSON: SO AM I RIGHT TO CONCLUDE -- TO

COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE'RE NOT MEETING THOSE STANDARDS WITH

OUR CURRENT AGENCIES?

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BURDICK: WHAT I'M SUGGESTING, MR. SIMPSON,

IS THAT IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE PURITY OF DRINKING WATER, ONE OF THE

COMPONENTS IN THAT IS TO PREVENT ANY CONTAMINANTS TO GO INTO THE

DRINKING WATER SO THAT THRESHOLDS WILL NOT BECOME EXCEEDED. AND, YOU

KNOW, THERE'S SOME THAT WILL ARGUE THAT A LOT OF WHAT WE FIND IN THE

WAY OF CONTAMINANTS DO HAVE THEIR SOURCE IN PESTICIDES.

MR. SIMPSON: OKAY.

MR. BURDICK: AND -- AND WE ARE FINDING ALMOST

ON WEEKLY BASIS THAT THOSE CHEMICALS, THOSE PESTICIDES, THOSE

CONTAMINANTS THAT IN THE PAST WERE DEEMED TO BE SAFE, AND THOSE LEVELS

THAT WERE DEEMED TO BE SAFE, IN FACT, ARE NOT. THERE HAD BEEN A TIME

WHEN DDT WAS CONSIDERED -- COULD BE USED WITH ABANDON, ONLY TO

FIND THAT IT HAD DELETERIOUS EFFECTS. THERE WAS A TIME WHEN ASBESTOS

WAS CONSIDERED TO BE ABSOLUTELY SAFE, ONLY TO FIND THAT IT WAS A

CARCINOGEN. AND SO WE'RE DEALING, IN MANY RESPECTS, WITH TRYING TO

TAKE PREVENTATIVE MEASURES IN ORDER TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH.

MR. SIMPSON: SO I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHO'S GONNA

MAKE THIS DECISION? IT'S GONNA GIVE MUNICIPALITIES THE AUTHORITY TO

DECIDE WHAT PESTICIDES CAN BE USED, WHAT CAN'T. WILL THAT BE A TOWN

BOARD, WILL THAT BE A TOWN SUPERVISOR, WILL THAT BE A CONSULTANT? WHO

WILL MAKE THAT DECISION IN THOSE MUNICIPALITIES?

MR. BURDICK: SO, YOU KNOW, I -- I THINK THAT IT'S

HELPFUL TO UNDERSTAND -- AND -- AND I APPRECIATE YOUR QUESTION. LIKE

YOU, I HAVE A HIGH REGARD FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT. I COME OUT OF LOCAL

GOVERNMENT. I FEEL LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB. AND IN

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THIS PARTICULAR AREA OF WETLANDS PROTECTION, THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS JOB

SINCE THE LATE 1970S, SHORTLY AFTER THE ADOPTION -- THE ENACTMENT OF THE

FEDERAL CLEAN WATER LAW. AND SO IN TERMS OF WHO MAKES DECISIONS,

THE LAW IS PRETTY WELL SET, AND THIS OBVIOUSLY IS TO MAKE SOME LITTLE

CHANGE IN IT TO ALLOW, ON A VERY LIMITED BASIS, GREATER AUTHORITY TO LOCAL

GOVERNMENTS TO TRY TO PROTECT THE WETLANDS THAT ARE WITHIN THE SCOPE OF

THEIR AUTHORITY.

MR. SIMPSON: WOULD A LOCAL GOVERNMENT BE ABLE

TO STOP THE TREATMENT FOR MOSQUITOES OR BLACK FLIES?

MR. BURDICK: I'M SORRY, JUST --

MR. SIMPSON: WOULD A TOWN BOARD BE ABLE TO

MAKE A DECISION WHETHER THEIR STREAMS AND WETLANDS ARE TREATED WITH

BTI -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE EVER HEARD OF BTI. IN THE NORTH COUNTRY

I'M NOT SURE IF YOU'VE EVER EXPERIENCED BLACK FLIES OR MOSQUITOES, BUT

WE ACTUALLY -- I WAS A TOWN SUPERVISOR, I CAME FROM LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

WE HAD A BLACK FLY TREATMENT PROGRAM AND WE USED A PRODUCT CALLED

BTI, AND THAT WAS APPROVED BY DEC FOR MANY, MANY YEARS IN THE

ADIRONDACKS. WOULD THIS GIVE AN -- GIVE A LOCAL GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY

TO SAY NO, WE -- IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE?

MR. BURDICK: SO, THERE'S ANOTHER PROVISION IN THIS

THAT I'D LIKE TO BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION.

MR. SIMPSON: I'M FAMILIAR WITH THE DECISION, I JUST

ASKED THE QUESTIONS.

MR. BURDICK: NO, NO, BECAUSE -- BECAUSE IT'S

RELEVANT TO YOUR QUESTION. AND IT WOULD DEPEND UPON HOW THAT

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PARTICULAR PEST, CALL IT, WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED. AND THAT IS A PROVISO

THAT ANY SUCH LAW OR ORDINANCE, AND IN THIS CASE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A

LOCAL LAW THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE ADOPTED IF THIS WERE TO BE ENACTED. IT

DOESN'T HAPPEN ALL BY ITSELF, IT'S NOT SELF -- IT -- IT WOULD BE NEED TO BE

THAT THE LOCALITY ADOPTS A FURTHER LOCAL LAW IN ORDER TO GIVE EFFECT IF THIS

BILL WERE TO BE ENACTED. BUT TO GO ON, IT SAYS, PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT

SUCH LAW OR ORDINANCE SHALL NOT PROHIBIT PESTICIDE APPLICATIONS FOR THE

CONTROL OF INVASIVE SPECIES IDENTIFIED PURSUANT TO TITLE 17 OF ARTICLE 9

OF THIS CHAPTER, PESTS OF SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC HEALTH IMPORTANCE, NOXIOUS

WEEDS DESIGNATED BY THE DEPARTMENT AS INJURIOUS TO ECOSYSTEM HEALTH,

OR FOR THE PROTECTION OF CRITICAL NAVY -- NATIVE PLANT SPECIES.

SO THE REASON I'M READING THAT SECTION IS BECAUSE THE

DEPARTMENT ULTIMATELY COULD MAKE A DETERMINATION WITH RESPECT TO

THAT PARTICULAR PEST OR INSECT WHICH IS ATTEMPTED TO BE CONTROLLED. AND

DEPENDING UPON THE OUTCOME OF THAT DETERMINATION, IT MAY BE

DETERMINED THAT THAT PARTICULAR PESTICIDE, IN FACT, COULD BE APPLIED.

MR. SIMPSON: AS CLEAR AS SWAMP WATER.

ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. SIMPSON: THANK YOU. MR. SPEAKER, THIS IS --

THIS MAY BE AN AMENDED BILL, NARROWER IN SCOPE ACCORDING TO THE

SPONSOR, BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S A LITTLE CONFUSING. WE'RE GONNA GO

BACK TO THE DEC, WE MAY NOT AGREE WITH THE DEC. IT SEEMS TO COME

UP WITH ALL SORTS OF SCENARIOS THAT ARE IN QUESTION THAT ULTIMATELY WILL

BE DECIDED BY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE CLOSEST TO THE PEOPLE, AND I

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CAN TELL YOU AS THE TOWN -- FORMER TOWN SUPERVISOR, WHEN I BROUGHT UP

BLACK FLY TREATMENT, THAT BECAME A VERY HEATED TOPIC. YOU HAD PEOPLE

THAT WERE FOR IT, PEOPLE THAT WERE AGAINST IT, AND THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT

CAME UP WITH SCIENCE THAT SAID THIS WAS NOT GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT,

OTHERS SAID ACCORDING TO DEC THERE WAS NO IMPACT, AND UNFORTUNATELY,

THOSE DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AT A DIFFERENT LEVEL, NOT WITH THE

RESOURCES THAT OUR OWN STATE AGENCY, THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT

OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION HAS.

SO IN THIS RARE MOMENT, I WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS THAT I

DO AGREE WITH THE EXECUTIVE IN THEIR DECISION TO VETO THIS MESSAGE AND

-- AND WHAT SHE SAID: THIS BILL WOULD UNDERMINE THE INTEGRITY OF DEC'S

ROBUST PESTICIDE PROGRAM, ITS WETLAND PROTECTION PROGRAM, AND ITS

PROTECTIONS FOR FRESHWATER WETLANDS. AND SHE GOES ON TO SAY, FURTHER,

THIS BILL WOULD LEAD TO CONFUSION AND THE INCONSISTENT APPLICATION OF

STATE LAWS LEADING TO UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES FOR PESTICIDE

REGULATION IN NEW YORK. I COULDN'T HAVE ANY EXPRESSED IT ANY BETTER

AND, THEREFORE, I CANNOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. I DO APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S

CONCERN FOR WATER QUALITY, BUT I THINK THIS BILL CERTAINLY LEADS TO A LOT OF

OTHER QUESTIONS AND UNANSWERED QUESTIONS, AND I WOULD URGE ALL MY

COLLEAGUES TO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. MILLER.

MR. MILLER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD THE

SPONSOR FOR A FEW QUESTIONS?

MR. BURDICK: CERTAINLY.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. MILLER: OKAY, I'M -- I WAS A FORMER

SUPERVISOR ALSO, AND I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT OF FORMER SUPERVISORS IN THIS

-- IN THIS ROOM HERE TODAY, AND I JUST HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU, MR.

BURDICK. WHAT DEPARTMENTS WOULD YOU -- WHAT STATE DEPARTMENTS AND

FEDERAL DEPARTMENTS WOULD YOU BE USING TO -- TO GET THEIR EXPERTISE FOR

YOUR NEW CREATED DEPARTMENT IN YOUR TOWN -- TOWN GOVERNMENT TO

MAKE THESE DECISIONS?

MR. BURDICK: WELL, THAT -- ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

WHAT DEPARTMENT WITHIN A MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT?

MR. MILLER: NO, WHAT STATE DEPARTMENTS AND

FEDERAL DEPARTMENTS WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU USE TO -- TO HAVE YOUR

NEWLY-CREATED TOWN DEPARTMENT ASK THE QUESTIONS TO MAKE YOUR

DECISIONS TO -- TO BAN THESE PESTICIDES? WOULD YOU USE THE

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, WOULD YOU USE THE DEC, THE EPA?

MR. BURDICK: I -- I REALLY DON'T ANTICIPATE THAT

THESE ISSUES WOULD UP WITH ANY KIND OF FREQUENCY. I CHAIRED THE

WETLANDS CONTROL COMMISSION AT THE TOWN OF BEDFORD FOR SOME NINE

YEARS, AND THERE WERE FEW INSTANCES IN WHICH WE NEEDED TO CONNECT

WITH EITHER THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE OR THE DEC, AND THOSE

REALLY ONLY AROSE IN INSTANCES OF WHICH THERE WAS ANY KIND OF

DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE PROPERTY OWNER SEEKING A WETLANDS PERMIT

AND THE TOWN. AND, FRANKLY, THEY WERE FEW AND BETWEEN, BUT WE

SIMPLY HAD CONTACTED THEM TO -- TO GET THEIR INTERPRETATION. AND IN

FACT, BECAUSE OF THE EXEMPTION THAT WOULD BE IN THIS BILL, IT PROBABLY

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WOULD NOT EVEN INVOLVE THE AGS -- AG DEPARTMENT WITH MUCH

FREQUENCY AT ALL. AND -- AND SO I DON'T SEE THAT WE WOULD HAVE THE

NEED TO DO SO. FOR THE TOWN OF BEDFORD, THE WAY THAT IT WAS HANDLED

IS THAT THERE'S A SEPARATE WETLANDS CONTROL COMMISSION. IN OTHER

MUNICIPALITIES, THE WETLANDS LAW IS HANDLED THROUGH THEIR PLANNING

BOARDS.

MR. MILLER: OKAY, BUT THE PESTICIDES BEING USED,

THEY'RE ALL REGULATED PESTICIDES THAT ARE OKAYED BY THE DEC, THE EPA.

AND I GUESS THE QUESTION I HAVE, HOW -- HOW COULD A TOWN COMMITTEE

OR TOWN DEPARTMENT DETERMINE WHAT PESTICIDES WOULD ADVERSELY AFFECT

THESE WETLANDS IF THEY'RE ALREADY BEING REGULATED BY THESE STATE AND

FEDERAL AGENCIES? I -- I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW FAR -- HOW FAR, YOU KNOW

-- ARE YOU GONNA HIRE SCIENTISTS, ARE YOU GONNA HIRE TECHNICIANS TO GO

OUT THERE AND MONITOR PESTICIDE LEVELS IN -- IN THESE RIVERS AND THESE

WETLANDS AND THEN COME BACK AND DECIDE THAT THIS CERTAIN PESTICIDE

YOU FEEL AND THE TOWN OF X SHOULDN'T BE THERE, BUT THE DEC SAYS IT'S

OKAY?

MR. BURDICK: YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE YOUR

QUESTION BUT -- BUT I THINK THAT IT RESTS UPON A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE

-- OF THIS BILL. AND THIS BILL WOULD PROVIDE THE LOCALITY WITH THE ABILITY

TO PROHIBIT ALL PEST -- PESTICIDES. AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE

PROPERTY OWNER CAN QUESTION THAT AND COULD ASSERT THAT IT'S BEING USED,

THE PESTICIDE, IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH A PARTICULARLY NOXIOUS PLANT,

INVASIVE PLANT OR PEST. BUT THE MUNICIPALITY ITSELF CAN, FROM THE

STARTING POINT, STATE THAT NO PESTICIDES ARE TO BE APPLIED TO THE WETLANDS

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IN QUESTION. AND IN TERMS OF HIRING CONSULTANTS, I THINK IT'S VERY GOOD

PRACTICE, AND I THINK MOST LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DO THAT WHEN IT COMES TO

TECHNICAL ISSUES. IN THE CASE OF THE TOWN OF BEDFORD'S WETLAND

CONTROL COMMISSION, FOR THE ENTIRE TIME THAT IT HAD BEEN IN EXISTENCE,

THAT COMMISSION, AND IT GOES BACK DECADES, THEY HAD A WETLAND

SCIENTIST WHO WAS A CONSULTANT TO THE TOWN OF BEDFORD IN -- IN

REVIEWING PERMIT APPLICATIONS. AND I THINK IT'S VERY GOOD PRACTICE TO

DO SO REGARDLESS OF THIS PARTICULAR BILL, BECAUSE THEY SHOULD HAVE AN

IDEA OF WHAT PARTICULAR ACTIVITY IT IS THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER IS

PROPOSING, AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH, IF ANY, IT WOULD HAVE A SIGNIFICANT

ADVERSE IMPACT UPON THE WETLANDS IN QUESTION.

MR. MILLER: OKAY. SO WHEN WE THINK OF

PESTICIDES, THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MOST OF OUR MINDS ARE

INSECTICIDES, BUT PESTICIDES COULD BE FERTILIZERS, ALSO. SO THAT WOULD BE

SOMETHING YOU WOULD BE LOOKING AT WITH YOUR WETLANDS COMMISSION IN

YOUR TOWN, ON FERTILIZER USE. YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT THE COMMERCIAL

AGRICULTURE AND WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT COMMERCIAL BUSINESS SUCH

AS GOLF COURSES AND FORESTRY PROJECTS.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. MILLER: YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS -- THIS BILL IS

WELL-INTENDED, BUT I THINK THAT THE TOWN GOVERNMENTS REALLY NEED TO

LISTEN TO THE DEC AND -- AND THE E -- EPA AND, YOU NOW, OTHER

AGENCIES OUT THERE ON -- ON WHAT PESTICIDES ARE SAFE TO USE AND WHAT

PESTICIDES AREN'T SAFE TO USE. WE'VE HAD A LOT OF THESE DEBATES OVER THE

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LAST FEW YEARS ON VARIOUS PESTICIDES, AND THESE -- THESE TOPICS KEEP ON

COMING UP. I -- BEING A FORMER TOWN SUPERVISOR, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S

SOMETHING THAT ALL TOWNS WILL -- WILL WANT DO OR IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT

WE'RE GONNA LOOK AT DOWN THE ROAD, BUT I'M GONNA VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE

AND I URGE ALL MY OTHER COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MS. GIGLIO.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK?

MR. BURDICK: (INAUDIBLE)

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK YIELDS.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK. SO, AFTER THE

COMMITTEE MEETING, I DID HAND YOU A LETTER FROM THE FARM BUREAU OF

NEW YORK THAT EXPRESSED THAT THEY STILL HAVE CONCERNS, EVEN THOUGH

THEY APPLAUD YOU FOR MODIFYING THE BILL AND TO EXCLUDE COMMERCIAL

AGRICULTURE. BUT AS MY COLLEAGUE STATED BEFORE, DOES YOUR BILL OR THE

STATUTE DEFINE WHAT COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURE IS?

MR. BURDICK: WELL, THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION.

AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE THE FIRST THAT I HEARD FROM THE FARM

BUREAU ON THIS WAS THE MEMO OF OPPOSITION. I CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE

BEEN HAPPY TO HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS WITH THE FARM BUREAU EARLIER

AND, IN FACT, I TRIED REACHING THEM SEVERAL MONTHS AGO BUT,

UNFORTUNATELY, HAD NOT HEARD BACK. I'M SURE THAT ANY KIND OF AMBIGUITY

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OR ANY KIND OF CONCERN COULD BE HANDLED THROUGH A CHAPTER

AMENDMENT.

MS. GIGLIO: THAT SOUNDS GREAT. THANK YOU, I

APPRECIATE THAT. AND THEN MY NEXT QUESTION FOR YOU IS DO LOCAL

GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO NOTIFY THE NEW YORK STATE DEC PRIOR TO ADOPTING

A LOCAL LAW TO RESTRICT PESTICIDES IN WETLANDS, OR CAN THEY JUST ADOPT A

LOCAL LAW?

MR. BURDICK: THE ENABLING STATUTE DOES NOT

REQUIRE NOTIFICATION TO THE DEC.

MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. SO WHO CURRENTLY APPROVES ALL

PESTICIDES IN NEW YORK STATE, AND HOW IS THAT DONE?

MR. BURDICK: SO, THAT'S REALLY NOT WITHIN THE

SCOPE OF THIS BILL. AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, PESTICIDE IS A DEFINED TERM

AND THE REGULATION, DETERMINATION OF THE PESTICIDE IS DONE BY THE DEC.

MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH FISH

KILLS?

MR. BURDICK: YES.

MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. SO WE'VE HAD MANY OF THEM ON

LONG ISLAND WHERE THE BLUEFISH CHASE THE BUNKER IN AND THE WATER IN

SHALLOW AREAS IS STARVING OF OXYGEN AND, THEREFORE, THE BUNKER DIE AND

THE BLUEFISH DIE BECAUSE THERE'S NO OXYGEN. SO THIS PESTICIDE

RESTRICTION THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS COULD APPLY, THESE LOCAL PESTICIDES

ALSO DEAL WITH INVASIVE SPECIES AND OTHER MOSQUITOES AND THINGS LIKE

THAT THAT ARE REALLY NUISANCES IN SHALLOW AREAS, ESPECIALLY WITH THE

INVASIVE SPECIES. SO A MUNICIPALITY THAT HAS NEVER HAD A FISH KILL WITH

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

200,000 FISH WASHING UP ON THE SHORES MAY NOT KNOW THAT IF THEY

ADOPT THIS LOCAL LAW AND THAT THOSE PESTICIDES COULDN'T BE APPLIED FOR

THE INVASIVE SPECIES, THAT IT COULD STARVE THE WATER OF OXYGEN AND

THEREFORE CREATE A POTENTIAL FISH KILL. SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, THE

DEC REGULATES WHAT PESTICIDES COULD BE USED IN THE STATE, AND THEY

AGREE WITH THE EPA, AND ARE ALL OF THOSE PESTICIDES THAT THE DEC AND

THE EPA APPROVE HIGHLY REGULATED IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK?

MR. BURDICK: I'M SORRY, WHAT'S THE QUESTION?

MS. GIGLIO: IS -- CAN ANYBODY JUST GO OUT AND PUT A

PESTICIDE ON A WETLAND OR IN A -- ON A FARM, OR ANYWHERE, WITHOUT IT

BEING REGULATED BY THE NEW YORK STATE DEC WHO CONFERS WITH THE

EPA? CAN ANYBODY JUST APPLY PESTICIDES IN A WETLAND WITHOUT THAT

PESTICIDE BEING REGULATED BY THE NEW YORK STATE DEC?

MR. BURDICK: THERE DEFINITELY IS REGULATION ON

PART OF THE DEC IN TERMS OF LICENSING, APPLICATORS TO DO IT, AND IN ORDER

TO ENSURE THAT THE LICENSE -- THE LICENSEE, IN FACT, IS APPLYING IT PROPERLY

AND ONLY IS APPLYING APPROVED PESTICIDES, IF THAT'S YOUR QUESTION.

MS. GIGLIO: YES, IT IS. AND DOES -- IS IT A

REQUIREMENT THAT A LOCALITY HAVE A SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH DONE, OR TAKE THAT

INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN BANNING PESTICIDES IN WETLANDS?

MR. BURDICK: NO.

MS. GIGLIO: IT'S NOT. OKAY. SO IT'S STRICTLY UP TO

THE MUNICIPALITY, WHICH COULD JUST NOT BE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT

ACTUALLY BENEFITS THE ENVIRONMENT AS A WHOLE WHERE THESE PESTICIDES

ARE STRICTLY ENFORCED.

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS.

MR. BURDICK: YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

MS. GIGLIO: MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. GIGLIO: SO AGRICULTURE, I'M SURROUNDED BY

AGRICULTURE ON LONG ISLAND. WE HAVE THE SOUND, WE HAVE THE BAY.

WE HAVE FARMERS THAT PAY A LOT OF MONEY FOR THESE PESTICIDES, AND THEY

CAN ONLY USE THEM WHEN THEY ASK THE DEC, HEY, CAN YOU COME TAKE A

LOOK AT THIS SO I CAN USE THIS PESTICIDE BECAUSE I'M HAVING THIS

PROBLEM, AND THEN THE DEC GIVES THEM A PERMIT TO ACTUALLY APPLY THE

PESTICIDE.

SO FOR THE TOWNS TO BE ABLE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE

DON'T CARE ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY THE STATE HAS SPENT WITH THE

DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION, HOW MUCH -- HOW MANY

HOURS THEY'VE SPENT, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH THE

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, THE FEDERAL AGENCY THAT OVERSEES

PESTICIDE USE, YOU KNOW, THAT WE DON'T CARE. AND, YOU KNOW WHAT?

LOCAL GOVERNMENTS CAN JUST ADOPT A LAW RESTRICTING A PESTICIDE THAT HAS

BEEN EVALUATED AND OVER-EVALUATED BY SCIENTISTS AND EXPERTS IN THE

INDUSTRY. AND WHERE I BELIEVE IN LOCAL CONTROL AND I BELIEVE THE

IMPORTANCE OF IT, UNLESS YOU HAVE THE STAFFING THAT THE STATE HAS TO

REGULATE AND PERMIT THESE PESTICIDES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE SAFE

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- IN ONE OF THESE (INAUDIBLE) IT'S THAT THE PESTICIDE

DOES -- DOES NOT POSE A REASONABLE CERTAINTY OF HARM. AND THESE ARE ALL

QUESTIONS THAT OUR GREAT NEW YORK STATE DEC AGENCIES LOOK AT IN

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

EVALUATING PUBLIC HEALTH.

AND SO FOR THOSE REASONS I WILL BE VOTING IN THE

NEGATIVE, BUT I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH MY COLLEAGUE WITH A

CHAPTER AMENDMENT TO BETTER DESCRIBE WHAT COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURE IS,

AND THEN ALSO TO HAVE SOME SORT OF RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE LOCAL

GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD ADOPT THIS AND THE DEC TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY

ARE NOT DISRUPTING AN ECOSYSTEM.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. MANKTELOW.

MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU -- THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. BURDICK: OF COURSE, THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK YIELDS.

MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK. CAN

YOU GIVE ME A DEFINITION OF WHAT PUBLIC WATER WOULD BE?

MR. BURDICK: I'M SORRY, A DEFINITION OF?

MR. MANKTELOW: OF WHAT PUBLIC WATER WOULD

BE IN THIS BILL?

MR. BURDICK: WELL, IN -- IN THE BILL IT IDENTIFIES

THE -- THOSE WATERWAYS THAT WOULD BE COVERED BY THIS, AND I CAN READ

THAT TO YOU AGAIN, AND THAT IS THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL APPLY

ONLY TO THOSE WETLANDS WHICH ARE HYDROLOGICALLY CONNECTED TO ANY

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

RESERVOIR, RESERVOIR SKIM, CLASS A WATERWAY, OR OTHER SOURCE OF PUBLIC

WATER SUPPLY.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO -- SO I GUESS MY QUESTION

IS, WHAT IS THE OTHER SOURCE OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY?

MR. BURDICK: I'M SORRY?

MR. MANKTELOW: WHAT IS THE OTHER SOURCE OF

PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY?

MR. BURDICK: WHAT IS THE SOURCE?

MR. MANKTELOW: YEAH. YOU SAID OR ANOTHER

SOURCE OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY. WHAT -- WHAT WOULD THAT BE?

MR. BURDICK: THERE COULD BE MULTIPLE SOURCES, IT

COULD BE GROUNDWATER, IT COULD BE A STREAM OR A RIVER THAT IS FLOWING

INTO A RESERVOIR. THERE COULD BE MULTIPLE SOURCES.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. WOULD THAT ALSO BE

CONSIDERED WATER THAT WOULD GO INTO A WELL IN A -- IN A HOME PROPERTY?

MR. BURDICK: THAT WOULD NOT BE A PUBLIC WATER

SUPPLY.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO DRINKING WATER OUT OF A

WELL IS NOT CONSIDERED PUBLIC WATER, THEN?

MR. BURDICK: DRINKING OUT OF A WELL IS -- UNLESS

IT'S A WELL THAT'S SERVING, SAY, A WHOLE CONDOMINIUM ASSOCIATION IN

WHICH -- AND, BY THE WAY, PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY IS DEFINED BY THE

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY.

MR. BURDICK: BECAUSE IT'S REGULATED BY THE

100

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, WHICH GOES BACK TO THE QUESTIONS OF STANDARDS

THAT THE DOH APPLIES TO WATER QUALITY.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND YOU HAD SAID EARLIER IN

THE DEBATE THAT YOU HAD REACHED OUT TO THE FARM BUREAU. WHO DID YOU

REACH OUT TO?

MR. BURDICK: YOU KNOW, I -- I DON'T HAVE THAT IN

FRONT OF ME, BUT I BELIEVE IT WAS THEIR LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND YOU DID THAT VIA PHONE

CALL, VIA E-MAIL?

MR. BURDICK: BY A PHONE CALL.

MR. MANKTELOW: BY PHONE CALL?

MR. BURDICK: YES, SIR.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU?

MR. BURDICK: I DIDN'T HEAR BACK.

MR. MANKTELOW: I'M SORRY?

MR. BURDICK: I DID NOT HEAR BACK, I DID NOT GET A

RETURN PHONE CALL.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO YOU CALLED THE FARM

BUREAU AND YOU HAD NO ONE TALK BACK TO YOU ABOUT IT?

MR. BURDICK: I LEFT A MESSAGE AND DID NOT HEAR

BACK.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND YOU SAID SEVERAL TIMES,

HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU DO THAT?

MR. BURDICK: NO, I THINK I SAID THAT I CALLED

EARLIER, A FEW MONTHS AGO.

101

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. MANKTELOW: YEAH, I THINK YOU SAID YOU'VE

REACHED OUT SEVERAL TIMES TO THEM AND NO ONE HAD GOTTEN BACK TO YOU.

WE COULD CHECK -- WE COULD -- WELL, THAT DOESN'T MATTER. SO I JUST WANT

TO KNOW, BECAUSE I FIND IT HARD BEING A FARMER, BEING A FARM BUREAU

MEMBER, WHY THEY WOULD NOT REACH OUT TO YOU OR GET BACK TO YOU,

ESPECIALLY WITH A BILL LIKE THIS?

MR. BURDICK: I -- I AGREE WITH YOU. IT BEWILDERS

ME, TOO.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. SO ANOTHER QUESTION,

BACK -- MY -- MY PARTNER BEHIND ME HAD TALKED ABOUT COMMERCIAL AG.

CAN YOU TELL ME AGAIN WHAT YOU CONSIDER COMMERCIAL AG?

MR. BURDICK: I WOULD LOOK, ACTUALLY, AS A POINT OF

REFERENCE, TO WHAT THE AGS AND MARKET LAW PROVIDES FOR THAT.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO -- SO THIS BILL -- THIS

WORDING IN YOUR BILL, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS, THEN?

MR. BURDICK: I JUST GAVE YOU A REPLY AS TO WHAT I

WOULD LOOK TO AND WHAT I THINK DEC OR OTHERS REASONABLY WOULD LOOK

TO.

MR. MANKTELOW: WELL, AS A FARMER AND

KNOWING MANY FARMERS, COMMERCIAL FARMERS, FARMERS THAT JUST GROW

FOR THEMSELVES, WHICH IS REALLY CONSIDERED A NONCOMMERCIAL FARMER, A

COMMERCIAL FARMER IS SOMEONE WHO GROWS PRODUCE, GROWS SOME KIND

OF CROP NOT FOR THEIR OWN SELVES BUT FOR SOMEONE ELSE OR FOR SALE OR FOR

A CANNING COMPANY. THAT'S WHAT A COMMERCIAL FARMER IS. SO

HOPEFULLY THAT WILL CLARIFY THAT A LITTLE BIT FOR YOU.

102

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PESTICIDES. I HAVE A COMMERCIAL PESTICIDES LICENSE, I

HAVE AN AGRICULTURAL PESTICIDE LICENSE. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A PESTICIDE

LABEL LOOKS LIKE ON A PESTICIDE CONTAINER?

MR. BURDICK: I'VE SEEN THEM, YES.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND WHAT DO THEY SAY?

MR. BURDICK: WELL, IT'LL GIVE THE CHEMICAL

COMPOSITION OF THE PESTICIDE, IT'LL HAVE CERTAIN WARNINGS ON THEM, I

THINK HAVE CERTAIN DESCRIPTIONS AS TO HOW THEY MAY BE APPLIED AND

HOW THEY CAN'T BE APPLIED.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO WHAT -- WHAT'S THE NUMBER

ONE WARNING ON A PESTICIDE LABEL?

MR. BURDICK: I'M SORRY?

MR. MANKTELOW: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE

NUMBER ONE WARNING IS ON A PESTICIDE LABEL?

MR. BURDICK: NO.

MR. MANKTELOW: OKAY. IT'S ABOUT HARM TO AN

INDIVIDUAL, TO THE APPLICATOR, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW. AND IN THAT WHOLE

LABEL, MR. BURDICK, IT TELLS YOU WHERE YOU CAN SPRAY, AROUND WHAT

WATER SOURCES, AND THE DEFINITION OF THE CHEMICAL THAT YOU'RE USING,

WHETHER IT WILL HARM WATER FOWL, WHETHER IT WILL HARM FISH. SO RIGHT

THERE ALONE REALLY, REALLY PUTS A -- A DAMPER -- OR IT GIVES US A DIRECT

DEFINITION OF WHERE WE CAN SPRAY AND WHERE WE CANNOT SPRAY. AND

THIS IS DONE PRIMARILY FROM THE EPA TO START WITH AND THEN DEC

FOLLOWING UP. AS A FARMER, I KNOW AND I TRUST THAT THE EPA FROM THE

FEDERAL SIDE, OUR DEC OFFICES -- I'LL WAIT 'TIL YOU'RE DONE TALKING. I -- I

103

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DON'T WANT YOU TO MISS ANYTHING. AND I KNOW THAT WORKING WITH OUR

DEC AGENTS AND THE PEOPLE THAT WE WORK WITH, THEY KNOW EXACTLY

WHAT THESE CHEMICALS ARE GOING TO DO OR NOT DO. AND WE HAVE SOME

REALLY, REALLY DEFINED DEFINITIONS OF WHAT WE CAN SPRAY AND HOW WE CAN

SPRAY. MY CONCERN AS A FORMER TOWN SUPERVISOR, AS A FORMER TOWN

BOARD MEMBER, AS A FORMER COUNTY LEGISLATOR IS WE ALL COME AND GO

JUST LIKE IN THIS -- IN THIS HOUSE. WE -- YOU AND I ARE GONNA COME AND

GO WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT. AND IF WE'RE GONNA GIVE THIS MUCH POWER

TO A LOCAL TOWN BOARD, WHO'S GONNA SET THOSE GUIDELINES AND WHO'S

GONNA KEEP THOSE GUIDELINES IN PLACE FOR THE NEXT TOWN BOARD? HOW

DOES THAT WORK?

MR. BURDICK: WELL, YOU KNOW, I -- I DO HAVE, AS I

STATED EARLIER, A PRETTY HIGH REGARD FOR THE COMPETENCY OF LOCAL

GOVERNMENT AND, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT YOU'RE NOT CASTING

ASPERSIONS ON THEM BECAUSE I THINK THAT THEY CAN HANDLE THESE THINGS

PRETTY WELL. THERE'S SOME PRETTY COMPLEX MATTERS THAT WETLANDS LAWS

DEAL WITH FOR OVER 60 YEARS, AND SO I -- I DO THINK THAT THEY'LL HAVE THE

WHEREWITHAL TO FIGURE THIS ONE OUT.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND IF THEY DO NOT HAVE THE

WHEREWITHAL, WHERE WOULD THEY REACH OUT TO?

MR. BURDICK: WELL, I -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU --

YOU SAID YOU WERE A TOWN SUPERVISOR YOURSELF AS WELL?

MR. MANKTELOW: FOR NINE YEARS, YES, SIR.

MR. BURDICK: WELL, I -- YOU KNOW, I LOOKED TO, AS

I MENTIONED BEFORE, IF THERE'S A MATTER THAT I'M NOT COMPLETELY

104

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CONVERSANT WITH, THEN I'M GONNA LOOK TO MY COUNSEL, I'M GONNA LOOK TO

COMPETENT CONSULTANTS WHO CAN HELP US THROUGH IT. AND I'M SURE YOU

DID THE SAME SORT OF THING IN -- IN -- YOU KNOW, DURING YOUR TENURE AS

SUPERVISOR. AND I HAVE EVERY CONFIDENCE THAT LOCALITIES WOULD DO

LIKEWISE. AND I -- I WOULD ALSO ADD THAT IN THE DECADES THAT THE

WETLANDS LAWS HAVE BEEN IN PLACE, THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW INSTANCES IN

WHICH THERE'S SOME KIND OF OUTCRY AS TO THEM BEING FAIRLY APPLIED AND,

IN FACT, NOT DOING A GOOD JOB IN PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE

WELFARE OF THE COMMUNITY IN GENERAL.

MR. MANKTELOW: YEAH, I AGREE. SEEING YOU --

THIS IS THE BILL THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT UP AGAIN, WE TALKED ABOUT

COMMERCIAL AG EARLIER. HOW MANY FARMERS HAVE YOU TALKED TO ABOUT

THIS BILL?

MR. BURDICK: I HAVE NOT.

MR. MANKTELOW: HOW MANY TOWN BOARDS HAVE

YOU TALKED TO ABOUT THIS BILL?

MR. BURDICK: SEVERAL IN MY -- IN MY MUNICIPAL --

I MEAN, IN MY ASSEMBLY DISTRICT.

MR. MANKTELOW: AND WHERE IS YOUR ASSEMBLY

DISTRICT?

MR. BURDICK: IT'S IN WESTCHESTER COUNTY,

NORTHERN WESTCHESTER, WHICH HAS SOME SEMI-RURAL AREAS.

MR. MANKTELOW: SEMI-RURAL. SO WHAT

PERCENTAGE OF THE SEMI-RURAL AREAS ARE -- ARE ACTUALLY FARMING

COMMUNITIES, IS IT 5 PERCENT, 10 PERCENT?

105

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BURDICK: YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THE

PERCENTAGE, BUT WE DO HAVE FARMS IN THE 93RD ASSEMBLY DISTRICT IN

NORTH SALEM AND LEWISBOROUGH AND POUND RIDGE, IN -- IN BEDFORD.

MR. MANKTELOW: AWESOME.

MR. BURDICK: I THINK ALSO IN NEWCASTLE.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO AS YOU GO FURTHER WEST,

ESPECIALLY UP IN THE SYRACUSE, ROCHESTER, BUFFALO AREA, MUCH MORE

PREDOMINANTLY AG WHETHER IT'S FRUIT, WHETHER IT'S DAIRY, WHETHER IT'S

POTATOES, ONIONS, FIELD CROPS. DID YOU TALK TO ANY ONE OF THOSE FARMS

OR COMMUNITIES ABOUT THIS?

MR. BURDICK: WESTERN NEW YORK? NO, I HAVE

NOT.

MR. MANKTELOW: SO IT'S BASICALLY JUST AROUND

YOUR AREA?

MR. BURDICK: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. MANKTELOW: ALL RIGHT. I APPRECIATE YOU

ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS, MR. BURDICK. I DO THINK THAT THERE'S FAR MORE

QUESTIONS THAT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED OR TALKED ABOUT PRIOR TO BRINGING

THIS TO A -- TO A LAW, BUT I DO THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS.

MR. BURDICK: YOU ARE VERY WELCOME, SIR.

MR. MANKTELOW: THANK YOU.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. MANKTELOW: AGAIN, AS WE GET TOWARDS THE

END OF SESSION, SIR, WE BRING MANY, MANY BILLS FORWARD. AND MUCH

106

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LIKE BIG GOVERNMENT, WE THINK WE CAN PUT THINGS OUT THERE THAT WILL

HELP EVERYONE ACROSS AN AREA. AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE

SPONSOR PROMOTING THIS IN HIS DISTRICT, MAYBE IN HIS SMALL COMMUNITY

WHERE HE LIVES. BUT WHEN WE START PROMOTING THIS STATEWIDE, AGAIN,

WITHOUT BRINGING THOSE PLAYERS TO THE TABLE, WITHOUT BRINGING DEC --

AND I WILL -- I WILL DO A FAVOR FOR THE SPONSOR, I WILL FOLLOW UP WITH THE

FARM BUREAU TO FIND OUT WHY THEY DID NOT GET BACK TO HIM BECAUSE AS A

FARM BUREAU MEMBER, THAT BOTHERS ME, SIR. AS A FARMER, THAT BOTHERS

ME. WE PAY DUES, WE EXPECT THEM TO ADVOCATE FOR US, AND I BELIEVE

THEY WOULD, SO I'LL FIND THAT ANSWER.

BUT AGAIN, WE'RE PUTTING THINGS IN PLACE THAT A LOT OF

PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT REALLY GOES ON IN LIFE. NOBODY REALLY

KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU APPLY A PESTICIDE. I'M VERY FORTUNATE

TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT FOR 30-PLUS YEARS. I KNOW THE INS AND

OUTS. AM I PERFECT? ABSOLUTELY NOT. HAVE I EVER MADE A MISTAKE?

ABSOLUTELY. BUT WE KNOW WHERE THE GUIDELINES ARE, WE KNOW WHERE TO

TALK, WHERE TO GET THE INFORMATION FROM, AND NOW WE'RE GONNA THROW

TOWN BOARD MEMBERS, VILLAGE TRUSTEES, COUNTYWIDE, WHEN WE ALREADY

HAVE THE EXPERTS IN PLACE, TELLING US AS AG PRODUCERS WHAT WE CAN,

WHERE WE CAN AND HOW WE CAN SPRAY OUR MATERIALS. AND I CAN TELL THE

SPONSOR AND I CAN TELL ALL OF YOU HERE THAT THERE'S NO GREATER ADVOCATE

FOR THE PUBLIC SAFETY OF OUR WATER THAN FARMERS OR AG PRODUCERS --

EXCUSE ME, AG PRODUCERS, IN NEW YORK STATE. WE LOVE WHAT WE HAVE,

WE LOVE WHERE WE ARE, AND WE'RE GOING TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT.

THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR ALL OF US.

107

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SO AGAIN, AS A FEW OF MY OTHER COLLEAGUES HAVE STATED,

I UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS OF THE BILL, I UNDERSTAND WHERE THE -- WHERE

THE SPONSOR WANTS TO GO WITH THIS. I DON'T AGREE WITHOUT SOME KIND OF

TRAINING PLAN, WITHOUT A SUCCESSION PLAN WHEN TOWN BOARDS ROLL OVER

AND MOVE OUT AND SOMEONE ELSE MOVES IN. HOW ARE WE GOING TO MAKE

SURE THOSE ISSUES STAY IN THE FOREFRONT AND ALSO STAY IN PLACE? AS A

FARMER, WE NEED THAT CONSISTENCY. SO WE KNOW FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS,

15 YEARS, 20 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'RE NOT GOING TO

CHANGE, OR IF A TOWN BOARD CHANGES, THREE PEOPLE ON THE BOARD, OH, BY

THE WAY, WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS. BECAUSE WE'RE GONNA PUT OUR

FARMERS OUT OF BUSINESS. AND AGAIN, WE'RE GONNA DO A DISRESPECT TO OUR

FARMERS, TO OUR AG COMMUNITY, AND I -- I JUST THINK WITHOUT HAVING

THEM -- WITHOUT HAVING THOSE THINGS IN PLACE, WE REALLY NEED TO DO THAT

FIRST, AGAIN, PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE, BUT MORE SO, NOT TALKING

TO THE HORSE BEFORE THE CART WAS PUT ON.

SO AGAIN, I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE. I COMMEND

THE SPONSOR FOR WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO HERE, BUT THERE ARE SOME

QUESTIONS. SO THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING ME TO SPEAK.

THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK, FOR TAKING THE TIME TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS,

MUCH APPRECIATED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK, WILL

YOU YIELD?

108

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BURDICK: CERTAINLY WILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BURDICK YIELDS,

SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK, AND

THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING ALL THESE QUESTIONS. I ALSO APPRECIATE YOUR

EFFORTS TO NARROW THE SCOPE OF THIS BILL IN THE PAST AND THANK YOU ON

BOTH COUNTS. I SEE THAT THIS BILL APPLIES TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS. DOES

LOCAL GOVERNMENT INCLUDE THE CITY OF NEW YORK?

MR. BURDICK: IT WOULD APPLY, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT

ANY OF THE BOROUGHS -- WELL, MAYBE STATEN ISLAND, BUT I DON'T KNOW

WHETHER THERE EXISTS ANY LOCAL FRESHWATER WETLANDS LAWS WITHIN THE

CITY OF NEW YORK.

MR. GOODELL: AND I SEE THAT IT -- IT APPLIES

SPECIFICALLY -- AND YOU POINTED OUT IT WAS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT RESERVOIRS,

RESERVOIR STEM, CLASS A WATERWAYS, CORRECT?

MR. BURDICK: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: SO AM I CORRECT, THEN, THAT IT WOULD

APPLY TO THE NEW YORK CITY WATERSHED THAT FEEDS ALL OF THEIR 19

RESERVOIRS?

MR. BURDICK: IT CERTAINLY WOULD, YEAH. I MEAN --

AND, IN FACT, IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS WE HAVE NEW YORK CITY WATER

RESERVOIRS THAT COULD WELL BE AFFECTED AND PROTECTED BY THIS.

MR. GOODELL: AND SO IN OTHER WORDS, THIS

STATUTORY PROVISION WOULD ALLOW THE CITY OF NEW YORK TO REGULATE

PESTICIDE APPLICATIONS IN WETLANDS EXTENDING UP 125,000 -- 125 MILES

109

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND OVER 2,000 SQUARE MILES OF LAND; IS THAT CORRECT?

MR. BURDICK: IT REALLY DOES DEPEND UPON WHETHER

OR NOT THERE'S A HYDROLOGICAL CONNECTION.

MR. GOODELL: RIGHT, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT THE

SIZE OF THEIR WATER SUPPLY COVERS 2,000 SQUARE MILES AND GOES 125

MILES UP TO THE WEST AND NORTH OF NEW YORK CITY, AND FROM WHAT YOU

TOLD ME, NEW YORK CITY BY LOCAL LAW COULD THEN REGULATE ALL THAT LAND

AS IT RELATES TO PESTICIDE APPLICATIONS, CORRECT?

MR. BURDICK: YOU HAVE TO START -- WHAT THIS BILL

PROVIDES IS FOR THOSE MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE A FRESHWATER WETLANDS

LAW, THEN IT WOULD GIVE THEM THE AUTHORITY TO ADOPT A FURTHER LOCAL LAW,

AUGMENTING IT BASED ON THE STATUTORY AUTHORITY THAT THIS BILL WOULD

CONFER. AND SO I DO THINK THAT WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS WELL BEYOND

THE SCOPE OF WHAT THIS WOULD PROVIDE.

MR. GOODELL: I WOULD HOPE SO, AND PERHAPS IF WE

GET A CHANCE TO CLARIFY THAT IN THE FUTURE WE CAN DO SO. THANK YOU, MR.

BURDICK.

SIR, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: ON THE BILL.

MR. GOODELL: THE CONCERN THAT I HAVE IS THAT

WHEN YOU FIRST READ THIS, IT SAYS A LOCAL GOVERNMENT THAT'S IMPLEMENTED

A FRESHWATER WETLANDS PROTECTION LAW IN ACCORDANCE WITH A LOCAL LAW

CAN REGULATE ALL THE WATERSHED WITHIN THE AREA OF ITS RESERVOIR. AND AS

MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT, THIS PROVISION WOULD INCLUDE THE CITY OF

NEW YORK. THE CITY OF NEW YORK HAS THE LARGEST SYSTEM OF WATERSHED

110

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

COLLECTION IN THE WORLD THAT EXTENDS FOR 125 MILES OUTSIDE OF NEW

YORK CITY, IT CROSSES SEVERAL COUNTIES AND IT ENCOMPASSES OVER 2,000

SQUARE MILES. SO WHILE ON THE FACE THIS LOOKS LIKE IT'S PRETTY NARROWLY

CRAFTED, WHEN YOU REALIZE IT APPLIES TO ALLOWING THE CITY OF NEW YORK

TO GOVERN WETLAND PESTICIDE -- OR PESTICIDE USE ANYWHERE IN 2,000

SQUARE MILES OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, IT'S REALLY QUITE AN

EXPANSIVE LAW. AND FOR THOSE REASONS AND THE REASONS MENTIONED BY

MY COLLEAGUE, I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT. I WOULD, HOWEVER, COMMEND

THE SPONSOR WHO IS WORKING ON NARROWING THIS BILL TO ADDRESS HIS

SPECIFIC CONCERNS. I APPRECIATE HIS WILLINGNESS TO DO THAT AND I HOPE HE

CONTINUES THAT PROCESS AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MR. TAGUE.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

MR. BURDICK: I CERTAINLY WILL, THANK YOU.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK, APPRECIATE

IT. JUST A COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS. IT SAYS -- THE BILL'S TITLE, "CERTAIN

LOCAL FRESHWATER WETLANDS." CAN YOU LAY OUT WHAT EXACTLY THAT

DEFINITION IS?

MR. BURDICK: IT'S ACTUALLY SET OUT IN THE

ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW. THIS IS NOT CREATING A NEW

DEFINITION OF FRESHWATER WETLANDS, IT'S ALREADY WITHIN THE

ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW. IT'S ACTUALLY A PRETTY LONG SECTION,

BUT IT'S ALREADY DEFINED.

111

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. TAGUE: NOW, DOES THIS ONLY ATTEST TO PROPERTY

THAT IS OWNED BY A LOCALITY, OR IS THIS ALSO CONSIDERED WITH PRIVATE

PROPERTY AS WELL?

MR. BURDICK: IT WOULD INCLUDE PRIVATE PROPERTY.

MR. TAGUE: SO THIS MEANS THAT A GOLF COURSE MAY

BE AFFECTED BY THIS LAW?

MR. BURDICK: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. TAGUE: A MUNICIPAL PARK MAY BE AFFECTED BY

THIS LAW?

MR. BURDICK: IT -- IT MAY BE. A LOT OF

MUNICIPALITIES IN ADOPTING A LOCAL LAW WILL EXEMPT THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

IN THE TOWN OF BEDFORD WHEN I WAS SUPERVISOR, WE DID NOT DO THAT, BUT

IT COULD.

MR. TAGUE: WELL, MY -- OUR COLLEAGUE, MR.

GOODELL, BROUGHT UP A VERY GOOD POINT, AND I HAVE A LOT OF RESERVOIRS IN

MY DISTRICT AND RIGHT EVEN IN HOME COUNTY WHICH PROVIDES WATER TO THE

NEW YORK CITY -- TO NEW YORK CITY THROUGH THE NEW YORK CITY

WATERSHED. SO AM I CORRECT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT

WHERE THESE RESERVOIRS ARE WOULD NOW HAVE CONTROL OVER PESTICIDES

THAT ARE USED NEAR THOSE RESERVOIRS, OR DOES THE NEW YORK CITY

COUNCIL, OR NEW YORK CITY WATERSHED HAVE THE AUTHORITY?

MR. BURDICK: SO, LET'S GO BACK TO THE

FUNDAMENTALS ON THIS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT A LOCALITY IS PERMITTED

TO REGULATE. WHAT THEY'RE PERMITTED TO REGULATE ARE NOT THE RESERVOIRS

THEMSELVES, BUT FRESHWATER WETLANDS. AND WHAT THIS BILL IS DOING IS IT'S

112

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NARROWING IT FURTHER TO STATE THAT IT ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WITH A

HYDROLOGICAL CONNECTION TO A PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY.

MR. TAGUE: BUT YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT YOU

COULD MAKE A CONNECTION FROM JUST ABOUT ANY WETLAND TO SOME -- SOME

SORT OF WATERWAY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU LIVE IN RURAL UPSTATE NEW YORK

WHERE I'M FROM. SEE, THIS AGAIN, TO ME, SIR, IS WHERE WE MAKE

LEGISLATION SITE-SPECIFIC TO A CERTAIN AREA AND WE FORGET THAT THERE ARE

18 OTHER MILLION PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE STATE IN DIFFERENT REGIONS THAT

ARE -- THAT ARE UNIQUE. AND WHEN WE PUT THESE LAWS TOGETHER,

SOMETIMES WE DON'T THINK OF HOW IT'S GONNA AFFECT OTHER AREAS WITHIN

THE STATE OF NEW YORK. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT'S WHY WE HAVE AN

EPA, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A DEC, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A NEW YORK

WATERSHED, IS FOR THESE FOLKS TO MONITOR AND MAKE SURE THAT DIFFERENT

COMMUNITIES, DIFFERENT AREAS, BUSINESSES ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH

FEDERAL AND STATE LAW. I DON'T REALLY FEEL THAT IT'S THE JOB OF TOWN

GOVERNMENT TO MAKE THOSE TYPES OF LAWS AND TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE

ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THOSE LAWS. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS AT

DEC, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS AT DEP, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS

AT THE EPA. AND I THINK THAT IT'S BEST LEFT IN THEIR HANDS TO MAKE THOSE

DECISIONS, NOT TOWN GOVERNMENT.

AGAIN, AS I JUST SAID, TOWN GOVERNMENT ACROSS THE

STATE OF NEW YORK IS VERY UNIQUE. YOU PROBABLY HAVE MORE PEOPLE

WHERE YOU SERVED AS TOWN SUPERVISOR IN YOUR TOWN THAN I HAVE IN MY

ENTIRE HOME COUNTY. YOUR -- THE PEOPLE THAT SIT ON THAT BOARD IN YOUR

TOWN AND THE TOWN SUPERVISOR IS PROBABLY A FULL-TIME JOB. NOT IN MY

113

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TOWN, IT'S A PART-TIME JOB. THEY GET $2,000 A YEAR TO DO THE JOB. THE

ONLY FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES WE HAVE IS THE TOWN CLERK -- A TOWN CLERK AND

A HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT. SO I JUST -- IT BURNS ME. AND, AGAIN, AS --

AS MR. GOODELL SAID, I -- I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING DO HERE AND I

-- AND I GET IT. BUT WHEN WE MAKE THESE LAWS THAT COVER THE WHOLE

STATE OF NEW YORK, SOMETIMES WE JUST PLAIN DON'T THINK OF HOW OTHER

FOLKS LIVE OR WHAT THE PRIORITIES ARE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES. THIS IS ALSO

A BIG HIT TO AGRICULTURE, OKAY, AS MY FRIEND THAT SITS BEFORE ME HERE HAD

SPOKE ABOUT.

SO I GUESS THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I'M AT WITH THIS.

MR. BURDICK: THANK YOU.

MR. TAGUE: YOU'RE WELCOME. I'M GOOD; IF YOU'RE

GOOD, I'M GOOD. I'M VOTING NO, MR. SPEAKER.

(LAUGHTER)

MR. BURDICK: I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THERE WOULD

BE A QUESTION THERE.

MR. TAGUE: JUST SO YOU KNOW, I WILL BE VOTING

NO --

(LAUGHTER)

-- THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: I THINK EVERYONE'S

GOOD.

(LAUGHTER)

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 90TH

114

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: A PARTY VOTE HAS BEEN

REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE WILL BE GENERALLY OPPOSING THIS LEGISLATION FOR THE REASONS

THAT HAVE BEEN STATED. THOSE WHO WISH TO SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY

VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MS. SOLAGES.

MS. SOLAGES: THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE

VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THOSE WHO WISH TO VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE CAN

DO SO NOW.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. BURDICK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. BURDICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I WISH TO

THANK THE SPEAKER FOR ALLOWING THIS BILL TO COME TO THE FLOOR, AND I

WISH TO THANK PROGRAM AND COUNSEL, PARTICULARLY MICHELLE MILOT, HER

-- HER SIGNIFICANT WORK IN HELPING US -- IN PUTTING THIS NEW BILL

TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, I START FROM THE STANDPOINT OF HAVING COME

OUT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ARE UNIQUELY SITUATED

TO DEAL WITH LOCAL PROBLEMS. AND I FEEL THAT THEY CAN HANDLE COMPLEX

MATTERS, I HAVE A HIGH REGARD FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT. AND I ALSO

115

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

RECOGNIZE THAT THE DEC, WHILE DOING A VERY GOOD JOB TO THE EXTENT THEY

CAN, ARE HIGHLY LIMITED IN THEIR RESOURCES. AND THAT, I THINK, IS ONE OF

THE REASONS WHY THERE HAS BEEN FOR DECADES NOW, THE REGULATORY

FRAMEWORK WHICH DID DELEGATE TO LOCALITIES THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ABLE

TO REGULATE LOCAL WETLANDS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, AND FOR

OTHER BENEFITS WHICH WETLANDS PROVIDE.

AND SO THIS SIMPLY IS TO PROVIDE AND TO HAVE RESPECT

FOR HOME RULE, WHICH IS A VERY STRONG TRADITION ROOTED IN THIS STATE.

AND I BELIEVE THAT THIS COULD PROVIDE A GREAT BENEFIT TO THE

PRESERVATION OF OUR WETLANDS AND TO ENSURING THAT FUTURE GENERATIONS --

IN FACT, EARLIER THAN THAT, I WOULD ASSUME -- ARE NOT BESET WITH THE

PROBLEM OF HAVING TO TAKE OUT HARMFUL CHEMICALS THAT FIND THEIR WAY

INTO OUR DRINKING WATER.

SO I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE AND URGE MY COLLEAGUES TO

DO LIKEWISE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MR. BURDICK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. WALSH TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. SO I, TOO,

CAME UP THROUGH LOCAL GOVERNMENT, AND I WOULD SAY THAT IN THE TOWN

THAT I SAT ON THAT TOWN BOARD HAD -- I THINK WE HAD IN OUR TOWN ABOUT, I

DON'T KNOW, 9,000 RESIDENTS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO CONSIDER THE

FACT THAT TOWN TO TOWN THROUGHOUT OUR STATE, THERE'S A GREAT, GREAT

VARIETY. THERE'S A VARIETY IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCE AND

KNOWLEDGE AND HOURS TO GO TO THE JOB. SO I -- I DON'T CAST ANY

116

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ASPERSIONS AT TOWN BOARD MEMBERS, I WAS ONE, AND WE ALL CERTAINLY DO

OUR BEST, BUT -- BUT THERE'S A REAL VARIETY.

I JUST WANTED TO SPEAK VERY BRIEFLY ABOUT ARTICLE 33.

ARTICLE 24 OF THE STATE -- OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW

PROVIDES FOR A DELEGATORY SCHEME TO ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO ENACT

LOCAL FRESHWATER REG -- WETLANDS REGULATIONS AND SEEK DELEGATION OF

PERMITTING AUTHORITY FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL

CONSERVATION. THIS SCHEME IS FOR THE REGULATION OF FRESH -- FRESHWATER

WETLANDS AND NOT FOR THE REGULATION OF PESTICIDES. ARTICLE 33 IS

PREEMPTIVE OF DELEGATION AND DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE LOCAL REGULATION. I

THINK THAT RATHER THAN THIS BILL, I WOULD PREFER TO PROVIDE BETTER

RESOURCES TO DEC BECAUSE I THINK THAT THAT WILL ALLOW FOR MORE

CONSISTENT RESULTS AS WE MOVE ACROSS THE STATE, TOWN TO TOWN, COUNTY TO

COUNTY, RATHER THAN HAVING IT DONE PIECEMEAL.

SO FOR THAT -- FOR THOSE REASONS I WILL BE VOTING IN THE

NEGATIVE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MS. WALSH IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 12, RULES REPORT NO. 222, ON A MOTION -- THE

CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10350, RULES REPORT

NO. 222, COMMITTEE ON RULES (SHIMSKY). AN ACT TO AMEND THE

117

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

JUDICIARY LAW, THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, THE COURT OF CLAIMS

ACT, THE NEW YORK CITY CRIMINAL COURT ACT, THE UNIFORM DISTRICT

COURT ACT, THE UNIFORM CITY COURT ACT, THE UNIFORM JUSTICE COURT

ACT, THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW AND THE FAMILY COURT ACT, IN

RELATION TO FILING BY ELECTRONIC MEANS; TO AMEND CHAPTER 237 OF THE

LAWS OF 215 AMENDING THE JUDICIARY LAW, THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND

RULES AND OTHER LAWS RELATING TO THE USE OF ELECTRONIC MEANS FOR THE

COMMENCEMENT AND FILING OF PAPERS IN CERTAIN ACTIONS AND

PROCEEDINGS, IN RELATION TO THE EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF; AND TO REPEAL

CERTAIN PROVISIONS OF THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, THE CRIMINAL

PROCEDURE LAW AND THE FAMILY COURT ACT, RELATING TO COURT FILINGS.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: ON A MOTION BY MS.

SHIMSKY, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

AN EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

MS. SHIMSKY: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS BILL

HELPS MOVE FORWARD INCREMENTALLY THE 25-YEAR EFFORT ON THE PART OF

OCA TO MOVE THE PRACTICE OF E-FILING THROUGH OUR COURT SYSTEM.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

SPEAKER. WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

MS. SHIMSKY: ABSOLUTELY.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

118

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MS. SHIMSKY. I THINK

YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR OPENING COMMENTS THAT THIS IS AN OCA BILL,

OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION, RIGHT?

MS. SHIMSKY: THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE

WOULD BE THE ONE WHO WOULD -- WHO IS THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID AT

ADMINISTERING.

MR. GOODELL: AND YOU'VE BEEN ASKED TO SPONSOR

AND, IN A SENSE, DEFEND THIS BILL AT THE REQUEST OF OCA?

MS. SHIMSKY: I SOUGHT THE BILL OUT. FROM WHAT I

UNDERSTAND, THERE'S BEEN A LOT DISCUSSION OVER THE YEARS ABOUT THIS, AND

WE GOT IT TO A PLACE WHERE EVERYONE, INCLUDING OCA, MEMBERS OF THIS

BODY, FELT COMFORTABLE WITH IT.

MR. GOODELL: SO JUST SO WE ALL UNDERSTAND MY

PERSONAL PREJUDICE, I SHOULD TELL YOU THAT I ROUTINELY REFER TO OCA AS

"OUT OF CONTROL COURT ADMINISTRATORS, "OBNOXIOUS COURT

ADMINISTRATORS", "ODIOUS -- YOU GET THE GENERAL SENSE.

MS. SHIMSKY: I'M SORRY TO HEAR THAT.

MR. GOODELL: YEAH, I'M NOT A FAN. IN FACT, I -- IN

MY EXPERIENCE GOING BACK FOUR YEARS, SOME OF THE WORST LEGISLATION

I'VE EVER SEEN THAT'S BURDENED THE STATE OF NEW YORK JUDICIAL SYSTEM

HAS COME FROM OCA. SO WITH THAT PREJUDICE IN MIND, PLEASE BEAR WITH

ME. I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT MY PREJUDICE WASN'T IN ANY WAY

IMPUTED TO YOU.

MS. SHIMSKY: OR TO THE REST OF THE BODY WHO IS

RESPONSIBLE AND SPENDING A LOT TIME CRAFTING A GOOD, COMPROMISED

119

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

MR. GOODELL: INDEED. IT -- THANK YOU FOR MAKING

THAT CLEAR.

SO MY FIRST QUESTION NOW, THIS BILL PURPORTS TO GIVE

OCA THE AUTHORITY TO MANDATE THAT EVERY TOWN, VILLAGE AND CITY COURT

DO ELECTRONIC FILING, CORRECT?

MS. SHIMSKY: IT GIVES THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE

JUDGE THE AUTHORITY TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, THE

LOCAL BARS, TO PUT TOGETHER EITHER OPTIONAL OR MANDATORY SYSTEMS. OF

COURSE, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS FOR MEMBERS OF THE BAR WHO ARE NOT

CAPABLE OF USING THE ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS, AS WELL AS FOR PRO SE LITIGANTS.

MR. GOODELL: BUT THE DECISION IS MADE BY OCA,

RIGHT? IT SAYS -- I'M LOOKING ON PAGE 4, LINE 37, PARTICIPATION IN THIS

PROGRAM MAY BE REQUIRED OR MAY BE VOLUNTARY, AS PROVIDED BY THE

CHIEF ADMINISTRATOR OF OCA, CORRECT?

MS. SHIMSKY: AFTER THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE

JUDGE CONSULTS WITH THE LOCALITIES, THE LEVEL OF COURTS AND THE BARS THAT

ARE RELEVANT.

MR. GOODELL: BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S OCA

THAT CAN MANDATE IT, CORRECT?

MS. SHIMSKY: ULTIMATELY, SOMEBODY HAS TO MAKE

THE DECISION AND IT'S THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. NOW, THIS IS THE SAME

CHIEF ADMINISTRATOR THAT SHUT DOWN ALL THE COURT SYSTEMS AND WOULDN'T

ALLOW ANY EVICTION ACTIONS UNLESS THEY WERE BEING CONTESTED, THE SAME

120

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OCA ADMINISTRATOR THAT THE KEPT COURT SYSTEM OPEN FOR MONTHS AND

MONTHS AND MONTHS AFTER THE REST OF THE ECONOMY OPENED, EVEN THOUGH

JUDGES SIT BEHIND HUGE BENCHES WITH GUARDS TO KEEP PEOPLE AT LEAST TEN

OR 20 FEET AWAY? THAT'S THE SAME COURT ADMINISTRATOR, RIGHT?

MS. SHIMSKY: WELL --

MR. GOODELL: OH, WAIT. I -- I APOLOGIZE, MS.

SHIMSKY. DID MY PREJUDICE COME THROUGH AGAIN?

MS. SHIMSKY: I -- I THINK WE'VE GOT TO GO ISSUE BY

ISSUE HERE, MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: MY APOLOGIES.

SO YOU SAID THAT THE OCA ADMINISTRATOR WOULD MAKE

THIS ULTIMATE DECISION AFTER CONSULTING VARIOUS PEOPLE, AND IT'S A LIST.

MS. SHIMSKY: AND -- AND ACTUALLY TO THAT POINT,

MR. GOODELL, FOR THE COUNTY COURTS, THE COUNTY CLERK MUST SIGN OFF.

MR. GOODELL: OKAY. AND -- BUT THERE'S A LIST,

THAT'S ON PAGE 5.

MS. SHIMSKY: YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND IT SAYS FOR PARTICIPATION IN THIS

PROGRAM IS TO BE REQUIRED, OCA HAS TO CONSULT WITH THE ORGANIZED BAR

-- AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LAWYERS, NOT ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE, RIGHT? THE

ORGANIZED BAR.

MS. SHIMSKY: RIGHT, RIGHT.

MR. GOODELL: AND THEN NOT-FOR-PROFIT LEGAL

SERVICE PROVIDERS, ASSIGNED LAWYERS, UNAFFILIATED ATTORNEYS -- I'M NOT

QUITE SURE WHAT THEY ARE.

121

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. SHIMSKY: I BELIEVE THOSE ARE ATTORNEYS WHO

ARE IN SOLO PRACTICE.

MR. GOODELL: OKAY. AND ANY OTHER PERSONS AS

DEEMED APPROPRIATE, CORRECT?

MS. SHIMSKY: MM-HMM. YEAH, A FULL -- A FULL

RANGE OF STAKEHOLDERS.

MR. GOODELL: BUT NOT LISTED BY STATUTE ANYWAY,

CERTAINLY WITHIN THE DISCRETION WOULD BE ANY OF THE VILLAGE CLERKS OR THE

TOWN JUDGES, OR THE VILLAGE JUDGES; IS THAT CORRECT? THEY'RE NOT LISTED.

MS. SHIMSKY: THEY -- THEY ARE NOT SPECIFICALLY

MENTIONED IN THAT SUBSECTION BUT, OBVIOUSLY, IF MEMBERS OF ALL OF THE

RELEVANT PARTS OF THE BAR IN A LOCAL AREA ARE PART OF THE CONVERSATION,

THEY'LL END UP BEING PART OF THAT CONVERSATION AS WELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. NOW, THIS IS VERY CLEAR

THAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LAWYER, NO MATTER WHAT OCA MANDATES FOR

LAWYERS, YOU CAN APPEAR WITHOUT COMPLYING WITH THESE ELECTRONIC

FILING REQUIREMENTS, CORRECT?

MS. SHIMSKY: THAT IS CORRECT, IT'S COMPLETELY

OPTIONAL FOR PRO SE LITIGANTS.

MR. GOODELL: SO AS LONG AS YOUR CLIENT APPEARS

FIRST WITHOUT YOU, THEN YOU'RE EXCLUDED FROM THE E-FILING? OR DO YOU

HAVE TO THEN SUBSEQUENTLY RE-FILE?

MS. SHIMSKY: WELL, I SHOULD THINK THAT IF YOU ARE

APPEARING PRO SE, THE -- THE RULES ARE OPTIONAL FOR YOU, BUT WHEN YOU

ENGAGE AN ATTORNEY, THE RULES WOULD APPLY TO THAT ATTORNEY TO THE EXTENT

122

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THAT THE ATTORNEY IS COVERED BY THOSE RULES.

MR. GOODELL: AND SO WE THEN EXPECT A DUAL

SYSTEM, ONE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEYS AND

EVERYBODY ELSE, CORRECT?

MS. SHIMSKY: WELL, IT'S STILL THE SAME COURT SYSTEM

AND EVERYTHING, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE -- WHO WOULD

NOT HAVE TO E-FILE, THAT IS TRUE, AND THAT IS THE WAY MANY SYSTEMS

THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY OPERATE NOW.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE.

MS. SHIMSKY: THAT'S PRETTY MUCH THE WAY

EVERYBODY OPERATES NOW BECAUSE I THINK JUST ABOUT EVERYONE HAS

EXCEPTIONS FOR PRO SE LITIGANTS.

MR. GOODELL: I HAVE SEVERAL TOWNS THAT ONLY HAVE

A COUPLE THOUSAND RESIDENTS, THEY'D STILL HAVE A SEPARATE JUSTICE COURT. I

HAVE VILLAGES THAT ARE LESS THAN 500 RESIDENTS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE A

VILLAGE COURT. IS THERE ANY EXCEPTION FOR TOWNS OR VILLAGES THAT WANT TO

OPT OUT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE ELECTRONIC CAPABILITY FOR ELECTRONIC

FILING?

MS. SHIMSKY: THERE IS NO EXCEPTION AS SUCH BUT,

AGAIN, I AM SURE THAT THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, AFTER LISTENING TO

THE VARIOUS STAKEHOLDERS, WILL CERTAINLY TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT.

MR. GOODELL: AND THIS IS THE SAME CHIEF

ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE THAT DIDN'T -- NEVER MIND, I'M SORRY. I KEEP GOING

DOWN THAT --

MS. SHIMSKY: WHO KIDNAPPED THE LINDBERGH BABY

123

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND ALL OF THAT, I GET IT.

MR. GOODELL: YEAH. IS THERE ANY FUNDING, GRANT

MONEY OR OTHERWISE, TO ENABLE ALL THESE TOWNS AND VILLAGES,

PARTICULARLY THE SMALLER ONES, TO CONVERT THEIR SYSTEMS OVER TO

ELECTRONIC FILING?

MS. SHIMSKY: NOT AT THIS POINT, BUT YOU SHOULD

NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT -- THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE A MANDATE IN A PARTICULAR

LOCATION THAT'S GOING TO BE TAKING PLACE, SAY, ON THE 120TH DAY. THIS

SIMPLY CREATES A SITUATION WHERE THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE IS

AUTHORIZED TO BEGIN THESE CONVERSATIONS AND THIS PROCESS. SO IF

FUNDING IS REQUIRED, THERE WILL BE DEFINITELY TIME DOWN THE ROAD TO

HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND THANK

YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE AND YOUR EFFORTS TO KEEP ME ON TRACK.

MS. SHIMSKY: AND THANK YOU FOR -- FOR THE YEARS

OF FUN, MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: ON THE BILL, MR.

GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: I'M MINDFUL OF MY TIME, BUT I

WASN'T KIDDING WHEN I SAID OCA COMES OUT WITH THE CRAZIEST BILLS AND

RULES AND REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE. AND WHEN I SAY THAT I

REFER TO THEM AS OBNOXIOUS COURT ADMINISTRATORS, OR OUT-OF-CONTROL

COURT ADMINISTRATORS, IT IS A PHRASE THAT RESONATES THROUGHOUT THE STATE

124

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF NEW YORK BY EVERY BAR ASSOCIATION, EVERY LICENSED ATTORNEY, AND

VIRTUALLY EVERY JUDGE. I MEAN, IF YOU THINK THAT JUDGES LIKE OCA, THINK

AGAIN. MY TERMS ARE MILD COMPARED TO THEIRS. I'VE HAD JUDGES SET UP

MEETINGS WITH SOME REPRESENTATIVES OF OCA THAT WERE PROPOSING SOME

COCKAMAMIE IDEA, AND THE JUDGES PRIVATELY SAID TO ME, YOU'RE MEETING

WITH THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, SO OF COURSE I'M NOT GONNA CON --

ARGUE WITH THEM IN FRONT OF YOU, BUT THIS IS THE STUPIDEST PROPOSAL I'VE

HEARD IN MY ENTIRE CAREER. IT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER. IT'S ASTOUNDING.

AND I'LL JUST GIVE A COUPLE OF SIMPLE EXAMPLES. OCA

CAME UP WITH THIS BRIGHT IDEA THAT IF YOU WIN A MOTION FOR SUMMARY

JUDGMENT, WHICH MEANS THAT THERE ARE NO ISSUES OF FACT, BASED ON THE

UNDISPUTED FACTS, YOU WIN. OCA CAME UP WITH THIS REQUIREMENT THAT IF

YOU DIDN'T GET A COURT ORDER SIGNED WITHIN 60 DAYS, YOUR MOTION FOR

SUMMARY JUDGMENT IS AUTOMATICALLY DISMISSED. WHAT'S THAT MEAN?

THERE'S NO DISPUTED FACTS, THE COURT HAS HELD THERE'S NO DISPUTED FACTS,

AND NOW THE COURT HAS TO SCHEDULE A TRIAL. WHAT, WE'RE GONNA IMPANEL

A JURY WHEN NO THERE'S DISPUTES OF FACT? THAT'S THE TYPE OF OCA RULE

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

NOW, THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT ELECTRONIC FILING IS THAT IT

OVERCOMES ONE OF THE OTHER STUPID OCA RULES THAT WE'VE BEEN

SUFFERING FOR FOR ABOUT TWO DECADES, AND THAT WAS THE STUPID OCA RULE

THAT SAID WHENEVER YOU MAKE A MOTION YOU HAVE TO ATTACH TO THE

MOTION ALL YOUR PRIOR PAPERS. SO WE USED TO START OUT WITH A, YOU

KNOW, A TWO-PAGE MOTION, MAYBE ON A MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE, AND THEN

YOU HAD A COUNTER MOTION. IT HAD TO INCLUDE THEIR FIRST TWO PAGES, AND

125

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THEN IN A SUBSEQUENT MOTION, YOU HAD TO INCLUDE IT ALL. AND THEN

MAYBE THERE'S A DEPOSITION, YOU INCLUDE THAT. AND THEN YOU MADE A

THIRD MOTION AND YOU INCLUDE EVERYTHING. BY THE TIME YOU WERE DONE,

YOU WERE FILING PAPERS THAT WERE SIX INCHES THICK ON A TWO-PAGE

MOTION. THAT WAS AN OCA RULE. WHY? BECAUSE APPARENTLY THE

JUDGES WERE INCAPABLE OR UNABLE TO KEEP A FILE, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN

THE WORLD WOULD DO, AND SIMPLY OPEN THE FILE. MY GOD, OUR FILES WERE,

LIKE, TWO-FEET THICK. THANK YOU, OCA.

NOW THE GOOD NEWS. I TOLD YOU I WANTED TO SAY SOME

GOOD NEWS. THE ELECTRONIC FILING ELIMINATED THE NEED TO FILE

EVERYTHING EVERY TIME YOU OPENED YOUR -- YOUR BRIEFCASE, BECAUSE WITH

ELECTRONIC FILING YOU CAN JUST GO DOWN THE LIST AND CLICK THEM ON YOUR

OWN. SO THANK GOD AFTER 20 YEARS OF BEING BRUTALIZED BY OCA, WE'VE

COME UP WITH A WAY AROUND IT.

NOW, OCA WANTS TO EXTEND ITS TENTACLES OF

UNREASONABLE CONTROL OVER OUR VILLAGE AND TOWN COURTS AND FORCE THEM,

WITHOUT BEING REQUIRED TO EVEN TALK TO THEM, TO GO WITH ELECTRONIC

FILING. SO WHAT ELECTRONIC FILING ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN VILLAGE AND

TOWN COURTS? OH YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT, SMALL CLAIMS ACTIONS. YOU NOW

HAVE TO DO ELECTRONIC FILING FOR SMALL CLAIMS? FOR GOD'S SAKES, IT'S A

ONE-PAGE SHEET. AND WE EXPECT THESE VILLAGE AND TOWN CLERKS THAT

WORK FOR ONLY A FEW DOLLARS A WEEK TO NOW MASTER THIS NEW PROGRAM,

PUT IN THE COMPUTER SOFTWARE, PUT IN ALL THE FILING AND DATA RETRIEVAL

MECHANISMS, AND OUR JUDGES WHO ARE JUST ABOVE VOLUNTEER IN THESE

SMALL VILLAGE COURTS, TO MASTER A NEW SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE SOME

126

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ADMINISTRATOR IN ALBANY WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THE HELL MY

COUNTY IS CAN ASSERT THEIR UNREASONABLE CONTROL.

NOW, I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR AT THE BEGINNING AND

AS I WILL AT THE END, I AM NOT DIRECTING ANY OF MY CRITICISM TOWARD THE

BILL SPONSOR, WHO I THINK IS A FINE LEGISLATOR. BUT IN CASE YOU MISSED

MY TALK, I HATE OCA.

(LAUGHTER)

THANK YOU.

(APPLAUSE/LAUGHTER)

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: A PARTY VOTE HAS BEEN

REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: WELL, I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER GETTING

THAT OFF MY CHEST.

(LAUGHTER)

ALTHOUGH I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DISCREET

SINCE I'M GOING BACK INTO PRIVATE PRACTICE.

(LAUGHTER)

BUT -- BUT GETTING BACK ON THE SUBJECT, THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE, I HOPE, IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS, BUT THOSE WHO WANT

TO SUPPORT IT ARE CERTAINLY ABLE TO VOTE FOR IT ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU,

SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

127

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. NOW THAT WE KNOW HOW MR. GOODELL FEELS ABOUT OCA --

(LAUGHTER)

-- IN HIS LAST WEEK WITH US HERE, IT'S -- IT'S BEEN A GREAT

RIDE, THOUGH, MR. GOODELL. IT'S BEEN A GREAT RIDE. I'M GOING TO COME

BACK NEXT YEAR AND I'M GONNA BE SORRY THAT YOU'RE NOT HERE, BUT... I

HOPE THAT WHEN YOU GET BACK TO OCA THEY'RE GOING TO REMIND YOU THAT

YOU SAID -- THAT YOU SAID ON THE FLOOR TODAY THEY WERE STUPID, A COUPLE

TIMES --

(LAUGHTER)

-- AND USED THE WORD "HELL" A COUPLE TIMES, TOO. BUT,

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, YOU'LL GET PAST -- I'M SURE YOU'LL

GET PAST ALL THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS.

SO MR. SPEAKER, THE DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GONNA

BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION, EVEN THOUGH SOME OF US DON'T

LIKE OCA EITHER.

(LAUGHTER)

BUT HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD LIKE TO

BE AN EXCEPTION, THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO USE -- JUST VOTE AT THEIR SEATS.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MS. SHIMSKY TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. SHIMSKY: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

SPEAKER. JUST ABOUT EVERY COURT IN THE COUNTRY HAS GONE TO E-FILING

128

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER FOR THE LITIGANTS. IT IS MORE CONVENIENT, IT SAVES A

LOT OF TIME, AND IT'S BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. EVEN PRO SE LITIGANTS,

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE TO DRIVE 40 OR 50 OR MORE MILES TO THE

COURTHOUSE, OFTEN FIND E-FILING A REALLY GOOD IDEA AND END UP USING IT

FOR THEIR CASES AS WELL. FOR 25 YEARS, NEW YORK STATE HAS BEEN

MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF MORE E-FILING. THIS BILL IS PART OF THAT

MOTION, AND CONSIDERING HOW PREVALENT COMPUTERS ARE IN OUR SOCIETY AT

THIS POINT, IT'S CERTAINLY TIME TO TAKE THE NEXT STEP AND MOVE IT FURTHER.

IN TERMS OF OUR LOCAL COURTS, AS I SAID, THERE WILL BE TIME TO FIGURE OUT

HOW TO HELP EASE THEM ALONG IN THE MOST COST-EFFECTIVE WAY POSSIBLE.

BUT WE DO HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO CONTINUE A

FUTILE ATTEMPT TO WALL OFF COMMUNITIES FROM THE 21ST CENTURY, OR DO WE

RECOGNIZE THE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD AND THEN WORK WITH THEM, AS THIS

BILL MODELS, TO -- TO MOVE INTO A DIRECTION THAT IS BETTER FOR ALL LITIGANTS,

ATTORNEYS AND THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

AND TO MR. GOODELL, GOOD LUCK IN YOUR CONTINUED

LEGAL PRACTICE.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: MS. SHIMSKY IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE, I ASSUME?

MS. SHIMSKY: OH, THAT'S CORRECT.

ACTING SPEAKER JONES: OKAY.

MR. FLOOD.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU, SPEAKER. AND SO AS I DO

WANT TO LAUD THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL AS, YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN A SYSTEM

WHERE WE USE TECHNOLOGY AT ALL, BUT AS A PRACTICING ATTORNEY AND

129

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SOMEONE WHO WAS JUST FILING AN ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE LAST WEEK, THIS --

NOTHING ABOUT THIS E-FILING SYSTEM IS EASY. IT WAS MUCH EASIER TO

SIMPLY WALK INTO A CLERK'S OFFICE TO HAVE THEM TAKE A LOOK AT THE

PAPERS. IF THERE WAS SOMETHING SLIGHTLY WRONG, YOU COULD WALK OVER,

MAKE A QUICK CHANGE. IT'S NOT THAT WAY ANYMORE. IT'S NOT SIMPLE, IT'S

NOT EASY ON PARALEGALS WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR 40 YEARS, IT'S

NOT EASY ON ATTORNEYS. SO -- LET ALONE IT'S NOT GONNA BE EASY ON THE

GENERAL PUBLIC.

I WILL ECHO SOME OF MY COLLEAGUE'S COMMENTS ABOUT

OCA NOT BEING THE MOST FRIENDLY ORGANIZATION TO ATTORNEYS AND JUDGES.

I -- I STILL HAVE A LOT MORE -- A LONGER PRACTICE TO GO, SO I'M NOT GONNA

SAY ANYTHING TOO MUCH. BUT MAYBE OCA NEEDS TO GO AND MAKE SOME

MORE STEPS TO MAKE THIS A MORE USER-FRIENDLY PROCESS BEFORE

MANDATING THAT THE ENTIRE STATE GO TO THIS BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S

NOT A VERY EASY PROCESS. YOU THINK IT'S SIMPLE BY JUST SIMPLY GOING

ONLINE AND CLICKING A FEW BUTTONS AND GETTING IT SUBMITTED, IT'S NOT THAT

WAY. IT'S QUITE COMPLEX AND IT'S NOT EASY FOR THE AVERAGE ATTORNEY, LET

ALONE -- LET ALONE A PRO SE LITIGANT.

SO I VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE, I ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES

TO DO THE SAME. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. FLOOD IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

130

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PAGE 12, RULES REPORT NO. 226, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A00373-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 226, BRONSON, TAYLOR, DARLING, ROZIC, CRUZ, GLICK, L.

ROSENTHAL, SIMONE, LAVINE, BORES, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, SEAWRIGHT,

BENEDETTO, REYES, WEPRIN, BRABENEC, SILLITTI, RAGA, SLATER, BRAUNSTEIN,

DINOWITZ, DURSO, ZEBROWSKI, ARDILA, STECK, RA, BURGOS, EPSTEIN,

RAJKUMAR, GIBBS, TAPIA, HYNDMAN, BERGER, LEE, BURDICK, JACOBSON,

K. BROWN, BENDETT, REILLY, MCDONOUGH, PHEFFER AMATO, MIKULIN,

WALSH, SANTABARBARA, STERN. AN ACT TO AMEND THE LABOR LAW, IN

RELATION TO INCLUSION OF CERTAIN OFF-SITE CUSTOM FABRICATION AS PUBLIC

WORK FOR THE PURPOSES OF PAYMENT OF PREVAILING WAGE; AND PROVIDING

FOR THE REPEAL OF CERTAIN PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. BRONSON.

MR. BRONSON: YES, MR. SPEAKER. THIS BILL WOULD

CLOSE A LOOPHOLE AND WOULD REQUIRE, CONSISTENT WITH THE NEW YORK

STATE CONSTITUTION, THE PAYMENT OF PREVAILING WAGE FOR CERTAIN OFF-SITE

CUSTOM FABRICATION PERFORMED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PUBLIC WORKS

PROJECT.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. TAGUE.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THROUGH

YOU, WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BRONSON, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. BRONSON: YES, I WILL, MR. SPEAKER.

131

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS,

SIR.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU. MY FIRST QUESTION IS, I

HAVE SOME QUESTIONS MYSELF OF -- AS WHETHER THIS LEGISLATION AS WRITTEN

VIOLATES FEDERAL LAW AND, MORE SPECIFICALLY, WOULD BE THE TAFT-HARTLEY

ACT. WOULD YOU LIKE TO RESPOND TO THAT?

MR. BRONSON: YES. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS

WOULD VIOLATE THE TAFT-HARTLEY ACT. INDEED, THE LEGISLATION SPECIFICALLY

EXCLUDES PROJECTS THAT ARE FUNDED THROUGH FEDERAL DOLLARS.

MR. TAGUE: OKAY. NOW THE OTHER QUESTION THAT I

HAVE, IS THE PREVAILING WAGE RATE BEING PAID FOR THE LOCATION THAT THE

FABRICATION IS TAKING PLACE, OR IS THE PREVAILING WAGE RATE FOR THE --

BEING PAID FOR THE JOB LOCATION?

MR. BRONSON: IT WOULD BE BASED ON THE LOCATION

OF THE PUBLIC WORKS PROJECT.

MR. TAGUE: OKAY. SO THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST

PROBLEMS THAT I HAVE: IF YOU'RE DOING A JOB IN EAST SENECA, OKAY, BUT

YOUR SHOP IS IN, LET'S SAY, BUFFALO, AND LET'S SAY THAT THE PREVAILING WAIT

RAGE [SIC] CLASSIFICATION FOR A FABRICATOR IS DIFFERENT. SO THAT PERSON IS

GETTING PAID FOR THE WEST SENECA CLASSIFICATION PREVAILING RATE, CORRECT?

MR. BRONSON: SO, THIS -- WHAT THIS -- THIS BILL IS

NOT GONNA CHANGE THE WAY CLASSIFICATIONS ARE DETERMINED CURRENTLY. IT

WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW LABOR LAW 220 WHICH REQUIRES THE JURISDICTION

TO REPORT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR. THE COMMISSIONER WOULD IN

TURN SET THE CLASSIFICATIONS AND SET THE PREVAILING RATE. SO IT -- WE'RE

132

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NOT CHANGING THAT IN ANY WAY AND, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS WORKED WELL

UNDER LABOR LAW 220, AND CERTAINLY WE BELIEVE IT WILL CONTINUE TO

WORK UNDER 220 (INAUDIBLE).

MR. TAGUE: IS THERE A -- IS THERE A FAB -- IS THERE A

RATE NOW FOR A FABRICATOR, AND IS THAT THE CLASSIFICATION OF THE JOB?

MR. BRONSON: THERE ARE RATES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE

ENGAGED IN, YOU KNOW, BRICK AND MASON WORK, FOR ELECTRICIANS, FOR

LABORERS, AND IF THOSE FOLKS ARE INVOLVED IN FABRICATION, THEN WHATEVER

THAT TRADE IS WOULD BE THE PREVAILING RATE THAT WOULD BE FOR THAT

CLASSIFICATION.

MR. TAGUE: OKAY. I APPRECIATE THAT, AS ALWAYS,

HARRY.

WHAT HAPPENS IF THE FABRICATION IS TAKING PLACE OUT-

OF-STATE OR EVEN OUT OF THE COUNTRY?

MR. BRONSON: SO, WE -- THIS WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT

THE PREVAILING RATE WOULD APPLY TO THAT WORK NONETHELESS, EVEN THOUGH

IT'S IN A DIFFERENT STATE. AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE AUTHORITY TO DO

THAT AS A -- AS A MARKET PARTICIPANT IN -- IN E-COMMERCE.

MR. TAGUE: SO IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU -- IF -- IF A

CONTRACTOR WERE TO CONTRACT WITH SOMEBODY FROM CANADA, YOU FEEL THAT

-- BECAUSE THIS -- THIS IS STARTING TO GET INTO WHERE I THINK THAT THIS ISN'T

COMPLETELY LEGAL, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS GONNA -- THERE'S GONNA BE A

BIG LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THIS LEGISLATION IF THE GOVERNOR PASSES IT. BUT

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR CAN

FILE SUIT AGAINST A CANADIAN COMPANY FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE PREVAILING

133

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WAGE RATE LAW?

MR. BRONSON: THERE IS EXISTING CASE LAW THAT

SHOWS THAT A STATE WHICH HAS A INTEREST IN THE WAY THEIR TAXPAYERS

DOLLARS ARE SPENT OR OTHERWISE THAT THEY, INDEED, CAN REQUIRE WORK THAT'S

PERFORMED IN THE DIFFERENT STATE WITH THE FABRICATED PRODUCT COMING TO

NEW YORK STATE THAT WE CAN HAVE -- WE CAN HAVE -- REQUIRE OUR --

CONSTITUTIONALLY REQUIRED IN LABOR LAW 220, REQUIRE PREVAILING RATE TO

APPLY.

MR. TAGUE: IS THERE A MECHANISM IN PLACE OR IN

THIS LEGISLATION THAT PROVIDES CURRICULUM OR EDUCATION TO TEACH

CONTRACTORS HOW THEY CAN BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THESE MANDATES AND

UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE? BECAUSE -- AND I'LL JUST PUT THIS OUT THERE,

HARRY. AS YOU KNOW, I WORKED IN THIS INDUSTRY --

MR. BRONSON: MM-HMM.

MR. TAGUE: -- FOR ALMOST 30 YEARS. AND WHEN

YOU'RE DOING PREVAILING WAGE RATE WITH DIFFERENT CLASSIFICATIONS OF JOB,

USUALLY THOSE THAT WORK ON ROAD CONSTRUCTION CREWS OR HVCC [SIC],

THEY'RE USED TO DOING THIS EVERY DAY, TEN HOURS A DAY, 12 HOURS A DAY.

BUT WHEN YOU GET INTO DOING PREFABRICATION AND WORK LIKE THIS BACK AT

THE SHOP, THEY MAY BE WORKING ON YOUR PROJECT -- PROJECT FOR 45

MINUTES, ANOTHER PROJECT FOR AN HOUR THAT MAY NOT BE A PREVAILING RATE

WAGE JOB. THIS IS, TO ME, THIS IS A BOOKKEEPER'S NIGHTMARE, A

BOOKKEEPER'S NIGHTMARE.

MR. BRONSON: SO, I -- I APPRECIATE THAT, AND

CERTAINLY, I -- I BELIEVE THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR WOULD BE WILLING

134

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TO ASSIST CONTRACTORS IN UNDERSTANDING THIS IN A BETTER WAY. THE BILL

ITSELF DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY REQUIRE ANY TYPE OF EDUCATION IN THAT REGARD.

BUT WE WOULD WANT CONTRACTORS TO GET THIS RIGHT AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN,

I -- I WANT TO REITERATE, THOUGH, THE LANGUAGE OF THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION

SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT THIS WILL ONLY APPLY TO FABRICATION THAT IS SOLELY

AND SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED AND ENGINEERED FOR INSTALLATION IN THE PUBLIC

WORKS PROJECT.

MR. TAGUE: WELL, THAT, AGAIN -- AND THAT'S ANOTHER

QUESTION THAT I HAVE HERE, AND YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO ANSWER

IT. HOWEVER, IF YOU HAVE EQUIPMENT ON A JOB AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE A

PIECE FOR THAT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT TO BE ABLE TO DO A CERTAIN TASK ON THE

JOB, AND I GUESS WHETHER YOU BRING IT BACK TO THE SHOP TO DO IT OR YOU

DO IT OUT ON THE JOB, IS THAT -- IS THAT GOING TO INCLUDE THIS LAW? THE

PEOPLE DOING THAT WORK, ARE THEY NOW GONNA HAVE TO GET PAID UNDER

THAT CLASSIFICATION AS A FABRICATOR OR WHATEVER WE'RE GONNA NAME IT?

MR. BRONSON: SO THIS ONLY RELATES TO THE CUSTOM

FABRICATION AS IT RELATES TO THE CONSTRUCTION AND RENOVATION AND THE REST

OF THE WORDS THAT ARE UNDER EXISTING 220 THAT DEEMS IT TO BE

CONSTRUCTION WORK.

MR. TAGUE: OKAY. WELL, I APPRECIATE IT, AS

ALWAYS. I APPRECIATE OUR CONVERSATIONS WITH REGARDS TO THESE

CONSTRUCTION ISSUES AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR HARD WORK, HARRY.

ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

MR. BRONSON: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

135

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. TAGUE: AS I HAD MENTIONED EARLIER WITH THE

BACK-AND-FORTH QUESTIONS WITH THE -- WITH THE CHAIRMAN, THIS BILL AS

NEWLY DRAFTED, I BELIEVE AND I THINK MANY OTHERS BELIEVE, LIKELY

VIOLATES THE TAFT-HARTLEY RULES BY FORCING A CONTRACTOR TO PAY WAGES.

AS UNION CONTRACTORS OPERATING UNDER NEGOTIATED COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

AGREEMENTS, WHICH WE ALL CALL -- ALSO CALL CBA, THE OBJECTION IS NOT TO

APPLY PREVAILING WAGE RATES FOR THIS WORK. OBJECTIONS CAN BE BROKEN

INTO THREE CATEGORIES: LEGAL LIMITATIONS DUE TO FEDERAL LAW; THE

IMPOSSIBILITY OF CORRECTLY ADMINISTRATING SUCH LAW; AND KEEPING NEW

YORK WITH OTHER -- KEEPING NEW YORK COMPETITIVE WITH OTHER

JURISDICTIONS. WORKER SAFETY AND EFFICIENCY AND THE VAGUENESS OF THE

LEGISLATION ARE MY BIGGEST REASONS FOR BEING OPPOSED.

THE LABOR MANAGEMENT RELATIONS ACT OF 1947, MOST

COMMONLY KNOWN AS THE TAFT-HARTLEY ACT, RESTRICTS PAYMENTS TO

WORKERS UNLESS SUCH PAYMENTS ARE SPECIFIED IN A WRITTEN AGREEMENT

WITH THE EMPLOYER. CURRENTLY, ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS NEGOTIATE WITH

REPRESENTATIVE UNIONS ON A REGIONAL BASIS TO SET WAGE AND BENEFIT

STANDARDS FOR THEIR GEOGRAPHIC AREA. UNDER THIS BILL, AN ELECTRICIAN

WORKING UNDER A NEGOTIATED CBA IN ONE REGION WOULD BE REQUIRED TO

BE PAID THE PREVAILING RATE OF A REGION TO WHICH THE COMPONENT IS SENT.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CASE THAT A FABRICATION SHOP IN SYRACUSE IS BUILDING

COMPONENTS FOR A HOUSING PROJECT IN NEW YORK CITY, THE ELECTRICIAN IN

SYRACUSE WOULD BE PAID THE PREVAILING RATE FOR NEW YORK CITY.

HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT COMPLIANT WITH FEDERAL LAW BECAUSE THE

ELECTRICIAN IN SYRACUSE IS WORKING UNDER A NEGOTIATED CBA IN THE

136

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SYRACUSE REGION AND IS NOT BOUND BY NEW YORK CITY. THE PROPOSED

LEGISLATION CAN -- CAN FACE SIGNIFICANT LEGAL CHALLENGES OF THE

TAFT-HARTLEY ACT. EXPLICITLY, IT PROHIBITS UNIONS FROM FORCING

EMPLOYERS TO ASSIGN WORK TO EMPLOYEES IN A DIFFERENT BARGAINING UNIT

OR LOCATION THAT INITIALLY AGREED UPON. THIS CREATES A LEGAL CONFLICT

WHEN REQUIRING A FABRICATOR IN ONE REGION TO BE PAID THE PREVAILING

WAGE OF ANOTHER REGION, AS PROPOSED IN THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

ADDITIONALLY THE TART -- THE TAFT-HARTLEY ACT OUTLINES VARIOUS UNFAIR

LABOR PRACTICES AND THE JURISDICTION OF THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS

BOARD TO ENFORCE THESE PROVISIONS. SECTION 10-A GRANTS THE NLRB THE

AUTHORITY TO PREVENT ANY PERSON FROM ENGAGING IN UNFAIR LABOR

PRACTICES. THIS INCLUDES JURISDICTION OVER DISPUTES ARISING FROM THE

IMPOSITION OF DIFFERING REGIONAL WAGE RATES, POTENTIALLY MAKING PARTS

OF THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION UNENFORCEABLE UNDER FEDERAL LAW. SIMILAR

STATE LAWS HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED DUE TO CONFLICTS WITH FEDERAL LAW.

THIS BILL'S REQUIREMENTS CAN RESULT IN COSTLY LEGAL BATTLES THAT WOULD

ULTIMATELY BURDEN TAXPAYERS, AND OF COURSE DELAY PUBLIC WORKS

PROJECTS, AND AS I MENTIONED IN THE DEBATE, IMPOSSIBLE, IMPOSSIBLE,

ADMINISTRATION REQUIREMENTS.

YOU KNOW, CONTINUING THE EXAMPLE ABOVE, A

PREFABRICATION SHOP IN SYRACUSE MAY BE BUILDING COMPONENTS FOR

PROJECTS ACROSS THE STATE ALL UNDER ONE ROOF. AN ELECTRICIAN MAY BE

BUILDING COMPONENTS THAT WILL BE USED IN PROJECTS IN VARIOUS REGIONS OF

THE STATE, ALL WITHIN THE SAME HOUR. UNDER THIS BILL, THE TIME TAKEN TO

BUILD EACH COMPONENT FOR EACH REGION WOULD NEED TO BE TRACKED, AND

137

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE PREVAILING WAGE FOR THE PROJECT DESTINATION WOULD NEED TO BE

CORRECTLY APPLIED FOR THAT TIME IN A SINGLE HOUR. IN JUST A SINGLE HOUR AN

ELECTRICIAN BUILDING THESE COMPONENTS MAY BE REQUIRED TO BE PAID

SEVERAL DIFFERENT PREVAILING RATES FOR THE SAME HOUR. SIMILARLY, IT

WOULD NEED TO BE TRACKED FOR EACH COMPONENT, WHETHER THE COMPONENT

IS HEADED FOR A PUBLIC OR A PRIVATE JOB.

AND LASTLY, I WANT TO TOUCH ON THE COMPETITIVENESS

AND ANTIBUSINESS CLIMATE THAT WE ALREADY HAVE IN NEW YORK STATE.

OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, MANY CUSTOMERS ARE SWITCHING TO

PREFABRICATED COMPONENTS FOR JOBS FOR A MULT -- A MULTITUDE OF REASONS,

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, WORKER SAFETY AND EFFICIENCY. WORKERS ARE SAFER

IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT OFF SITE WITH A SINGLE TRADE-BUILDING

COMPONENT. IF THIS WORK WERE TO BE DONE ON THE JOB SITE WHERE ALL THE

VARIOUS TRADES ARE ENGAGING IN THEIR WORK, THE RISK OF INJURY AND

ACCIDENTS INCREASES. AND SECONDLY, IT IS MORE EFFICIENT TO BUILD

COMPONENTS OFF SITE THAN INSTALL THEM ON THE JOB SITE. IF THIS BILL WERE

TO BECOME LAW AND THE IMPOSSIBLE ADMINISTRATION REQUIREMENTS WERE

PLACED ON PREFABRICATION WORK, CUSTOMERS WOULD FACE A CHOICE EITHER

TO DO THE WORK ON SITE OR BY COMPONENTS, AS I MENTIONED, FROM

OUT-OF-STATE OR EVEN OUT-OF-COUNTRY, NEITHER OF WHICH BENEFITS NEW

YORK WORKERS. COMPARING NEW YORK'S COMPETITIVENESS WITH

NEIGHBORING STATES SHOWS THAT BUSINESS AND JOBS WOULD BE DRIVEN OUT

OF NEW YORK STATE WITH MORE FAVORABLE REGULATIONS.

MR. SPEAKER, I ALSO WOULD JUST LIKE TO MENTION THAT

THERE ARE ACTUALLY MANY LABOR ORGANIZATIONS AND UNIONS THAT ARE

138

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTUALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION, AND I'D LIKE TO JUST FOR THE RECORD

LIST SOME OF THEM OFF: NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS, SHEET METAL

AND AIR CONDITIONING CONTRACTORS, MECHANICAL CONTRACTORS, SUB --

SUBCONTRACTORS TRADE ASSOCIATION. I GOT MORE HERE, I PROMISE YOU.

CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION OF ROCHESTER, ASSOCIATED BUILDERS

AND CONTRACTORS, CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRIES EMPLOYEES ASSOCIATION,

EMPIRE STATE ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS, NFIB, CEA OF

CENTRAL NEW YORK. THE LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON.

AND I WANT TO JUST LEAVE YOU WITH THIS IN CLOSING: THE

GOVERNMENT CENTER FOR GOVERNMENTAL RESEARCH AT THE EMPIRE CENTER

ESTIMATES THAT THESE MANDATES COULD, ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE

DISCUSSED, DRIVE UP THE COST OF CONSTRUCTION AS MUCH AS 25 PERCENT.

AND AGAIN, THIS IS JUST AN ADMINISTRATIVE NIGHTMARE FOR BOTH

CONTRACTORS, SKILLED WORKERS, DOL AND DOT. FOR THOSE REASONS, I WILL

BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND I WOULD SURELY ASK MY COLLEAGUES TO DO

THE SAME. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND THANK YOU, MR. SPONSOR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MS. GIGLIO.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BRONSON, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. BRONSON: YES, I WILL, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU. SO HOW DOES THIS RELATE

139

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TO, SAY YOU WANT TO BUY PRODUCTS THAT ARE BEING PRODUCED OFF SITE FROM

NEW JERSEY OR CONNECTICUT? HOW DO WE ENFORCE THAT PREVAILING WAGE

LAW IF A PUBLIC WORKS PROJECT CHOOSES TO BUY THEIR OFF SITE CURTAIN WALLS

OR FABRICATED PROJECTS? HOW DO WE -- HOW DO WE ISOLATE THAT TO NEW

YORK?

MR. BRONSON: FIRST OF ALL, THE BILL WOULD ONLY

AUTHORIZE REQUIRING PREVAILING RATE TO BE PAID IF THAT FABRICATION IS

SOLELY AND SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT PUBLIC WORKS. AND THE WAY WE WOULD

ENFORCE IT WOULD BE TO PUT THEM ON NOTICE. YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW THE

PROCESS, YOU'RE IN THIS INDUSTRY. SO, THE DEPARTMENT OR -- OR THE

DEPARTMENT OF JURISDICTION INDICATES TO THE DOL THAT THEY'RE ENGAGING

AND HAVE ENTERED INTO A CONTRACT FOR PUBLIC WORKS. THE COMMISSIONER

LOOKS AND ANALYZES THE CLASSIFICATION OF WORKERS NECESSARY FOR THAT

PROJECT AND THEN ISSUES DIRECTIVES REGARDING THE PREVAILING RATE. THIS

WOULD BE THE EXACT SAME THING, IT WOULD JUST GO TO THAT PREFABRICATION

OUTFIT THAT'S IN, SAY, NEW JERSEY.

MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. YEAH, I REALLY -- I MEAN, I WANT

TO THANK YOU FOR THE BILL BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT -- IT LEVELS THE PLAYING

FIELD FOR ALL CONTRACTORS, AND IT'S NOT BASED ON YOUR DEMOGRAPHIC

LOCATION WHERE YOU MAY PAY YOUR WORKERS A HIGHER SALARY BECAUSE THE

COST OF LIVING THERE IS HIGHER RATHER THAN ANOTHER PART OF THE STATE. SO IT

LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD, AND IT ALSO ALLOWS FOR WORKERS WITHIN THAT

JURISDICTION TO POTENTIALLY GET THAT WORK WHERE TRANSPORTATION COSTS

WOULD BE LESS AND OTHER FACTORS AND OFF SITE FABRICATION WOULD BE LESS.

SO I -- I LIKE THE BILL WITH THAT REGARD, I'M JUST

140

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CONCERNED THAT IF A PUBLIC WORKS DECIDES TO GET, SAY, PRODUCTS THAT ARE

FABRICATED IN NEW JERSEY OR CONNECTICUT, THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE

ABLE TO ENFORCE THAT PREVAILING WAGE EVEN -- BECAUSE THEY MAY NOT

EVEN HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO FILE THE CERTIFIED PAYROLL WITH NEW YORK

STATE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR IF IT'S AN OUT-OF-STATE COMPANY. SO THAT'S

MY ONLY CONCERN WITH THE BILL. BUT I WILL BE SUPPORTING THE BILL AND

THEN HOPEFULLY WE'LL BE ABLE TO TIGHTEN THAT UP A LITTLE BIT TO SAY THAT

PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS SHOULD BE BOUGHT FROM, BECAUSE MOST OF IT IS

FUNDED BY THE GOVERNMENT, NEW YORK STATE, AND BY COUNTIES AND BY

MUNICIPALITIES THAT THAT WORK, IT STAYS IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK. SO

THANK YOU.

MR. BRONSON: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I'LL BE

VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 60TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE WILL BE GENERALLY OPPOSED BY -- FOR THE REASONS THAT HAVE

BEEN STATED, ALTHOUGH SEVERAL OF MY MEMBERS WILL WANT TO VOTE YES FOR

THE REASONS STATED. SO IT'S A PARTY VOTE NO, BUT THOSE MEMBERS WHO

141

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. THE DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GONNA BE VOTING IN SUPPORT OF

THIS LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT DESIRE TO BE AN

EXCEPTION. THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR SEATS. THANK YOU,

SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MA'AM.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. BRONSON TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. BRONSON: YES, MR. SPEAKER, I ABSTAIN FOR THE

PURPOSES OF EXPLAINING MY VOTE. YOU KNOW, SOME OF YOU MAY OR MAY

NOT KNOW, I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS ISSUE SINCE ROUGHLY 2006 AND I'M

PRETTY PLEASED THAT THIS BILL IS HERE ON THE FLOOR FOR A FULL VOTE. BUT LET

ME REMIND FOLKS, THIS COMES FROM THE NEW YORK STATE CONSTITUTION.

ARTICLE 1, SECTION 17 SAYS: LABOR OF HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT A COMMODITY

NOR AN ARTICLE OF COMMERCE AND SHALL NEVER BE SO CONSIDERED OR

CONSTRUED. NO LABORER, WORKER OR MECHANIC IN THE EMPLOY OF A

CONTRACTOR OR SUBCONTRACTOR ENGAGED IN THE PERFORMANCE OF ANY PUBLIC

WORK SHALL BE PAID LESS THAN THE RATE OF WAGES PREVAILING IN THE SAME

TRADE OR OCCUPATION IN THE LOCALITY WITHIN THE STATE WHERE SUCH PUBLIC

WORK IS LOCATED. THIS IS A CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENT. AND BECAUSE

THINGS HAVE CHANGED, TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED, OR FOR THE MERE PURPOSE

142

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF AVOIDING PAYING PREVAILING WAGE, FOLKS HAVE STARTED USING OFF SITE

FABRICATION. THIS CLOSES THAT LOOPHOLE. THIS REQUIRES THAT WE PAY

PREVAILING RATE, AS THE CONSTITUTION TELLS US WE MUST. IT HELPS THE

WORKERS BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING PAID A GOOD WAGE WITH BENEFITS AND

SUPPLEMENTS. IT HELPS OUR LOCAL ECONOMY BECAUSE THOSE WORKERS, IN

TURN, WILL BE CONTRIBUTING TO THE ECONOMY.

THIS BILL IS THE RIGHT THING FOR US TO DO. I'M THANKFUL IT

HAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, AND I'M THANKFUL FOR ALL THE FOLKS WHO HAVE

COME TO ME TO SAY, LET'S GIVE IT A GO AGAIN, HARRY. LET'S GIVE IT A GO

AND SEE IF WE CAN GET OFF SITE FABRICATION RIGHT-SIDED SO THAT WORKERS

ARE GETTING PAID THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO THE PREVAILING RATE. WE

BELIEVE WE HAVE MADE CHANGES TO DEAL WITH THE FEDERAL CONFLICT THAT

MIGHT EXIST, AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE ARE FOLLOWING CASE LAW THAT

AUTHORIZES THIS STATE, AS A MARKET PARTICIPANT, TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE

ABILITY TO REQUIRE PREVAILING RATES --

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. --

MR. BRONSON: -- FROM OTHER STATES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BRONSON?

MR. BRONSON: WITH THAT, I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST

AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BRONSON IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. RA TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. RA: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. LAST FALL I HAD

THE OPPORTUNITY WITH A NUMBER OF COLLEAGUES TO GO VISIT WITH -- WITH A

143

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BUSINESS AND A GROUP OF WORKERS WHO DO SOME OF THIS TYPE OF WORK,

PARTICULARLY THESE WERE SHEET METAL WORKERS, AND THEY WALKED US

THROUGH THEIR DESIGN PROCESS AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY DO; HIGHLY-

SKILLED INDIVIDUALS WHO DESERVE TO BE PAID A FAIR AND PREVAILING WAGE.

SO I THINK THAT THIS BILL IS IMPORTANT TO CLOSE THE LOOPHOLE, AS THE

SPONSOR HAD INDICATED. IF THESE MATERIALS WERE BEING DONE ON SITE, THEY

WOULD BE SUBJECT TO PREVAILING WAGE, SO THAT'S ALL THIS DOES. AND IT

ENSURES THAT WHEN WE ARE EXPENDING PUBLIC FUNDS FOR PUBLIC WORKS,

THAT WE PAY A PREVAILING WAGE WHICH IS CONSISTENT WITH THE NEW YORK

STATE CONSTITUTION, AS THE SPONSOR JUST -- JUST STATED.

SO, I'M PROUD TO BE A COSPONSOR AND CAST MY VOTE IN

THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. RA IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. DURSO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I RISE TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I ALSO WAS WITH THE -- WITH MR. RA ON THAT ONSITE

FABRICATION WITH THE SHEET METAL WORKERS, AGAIN, TO SEE THAT THE WORK

THAT THEY DO AND THE SKILLED CRAFTSMANSHIP THAT THEY -- THEY POSSESS,

AGAIN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I'M -- I'M GLAD TO SUPPORT, BE A COSPONSOR. I

WAS ALSO HAPPY TO SEE THAT THE DRAFTING PROCESS WAS PUT INTO THE BILL. I

WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR BEING ABLE TO DO THAT, AND THANK THE

SPONSOR FOR PROTECTING LABOR HERE IN NEW YORK STATE AND ALL OUR

WORKERS. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. DURSO IN THE

144

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 13, RULES REPORT NO. 241, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04363, RULES REPORT

NO. 241, ZEBROWSKI, MAGNARELLI, WEPRIN, MCDONOUGH, MCMAHON,

GLICK, SOLAGES, HUNTER, HYNDMAN, SEPTIMO, SAYEGH. AN ACT TO AMEND

THE UNIFORM JUSTICE COURT ACT, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING MINIMUM

EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF CERTAIN TOWN AND VILLAGE JUSTICES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ZEBROWSKI, AN

EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED, SIR.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: SURE, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

THIS BILL WOULD TAKE A MODEST STEP IN ADDRESSING A OVER CENTURIES-OLD

PROBLEM OF NON-ATTORNEYS DISPENSING JUSTICE, OR MANY TIMES THE LACK OF

JUSTICE, IN OUR TOWN AND VILLAGE JUSTICE COURTS ACROSS THE STATE OF NEW

YORK. STUDY AFTER STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT THESE NON-ATTORNEY JUDGES ARE

SUBJECT TO MORE DISCIPLINE, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO BEING REMOVED FROM THE

BENCH AT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE THAN -- THAN ATTORNEYS. AND THERE HAS

BEEN EXPOS� AFTER EXPOS�, PROBABLY THE MOST FAMOUS OF WHICH WAS IN

THE MID-2000S BY THE NEW YORK TIMES WHO REVIEWED COURT RECORDS

AND ALSO WENT INTO VARIOUS COURTS. AND WHEN YOU READ THAT ARTICLE IT'S

JUST SHOCKING, THE TYPE OF SITUATIONS THAT NEW YORKERS HAVE FOUND

THEMSELVES IN. YOU KNOW, THE -- THE IDEA THAT NON-ATTORNEYS SHOULD BE

JUDGES DATES BACK TO COLONIAL TIMES, TIMES WHEN THERE WERE NOT MANY

145

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ATTORNEYS AROUND. AND IT'S SO INCREDIBLY OUT-OF-DATE THAT I CAN'T BELIEVE

WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT HERE ON THE FLOOR OF THE ASSEMBLY. AND --

AND I'VE CERTAINLY DRAFTED OTHER BILLS THAT WOULD GO EVEN FURTHER, BUT

THIS IS THE ONE THAT IS THE COMPROMISE BILL THAT'S ON THE FLOOR TODAY. SO

THIS WOULD ALLOW TOWNS OR VILLAGES TO, AT THAT LOCAL OPTION, REQUIRE THAT

THEIR JUSTICES BE ATTORNEYS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. FLOOD.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ZEBROWSKI, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YES, I'LL YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS,

SIR.

MR. FLOOD: SO, IT -- IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY THAT

TOWN AND VILLAGE JUSTICES OTHER THAN MAYBE THE RANDOM ARRAIGNMENT

HERE AND THERE, THEY'RE NOT TAKING ON FELONY WORK, IS IT -- THAT WOULD BE

CORRECT?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: CORRECT.

MR. FLOOD: ALL RIGHT. YOU KNOW THAT, LIKE YOU

SAID, THIS IS A CENTURY-OLDS [SIC] LAW THAT WE'VE HAD IN PLACE. AND IT'S

FAIR TO SAY THAT THE MOST -- THE HIGHEST CHARGES THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE

SEEING WOULD BASICALLY, IN ONE OF THESE COURTS, BE A MISDEMEANOR

CHARGE, YOU'RE NOT GONNA SEE ANYTHING GREATER THAN THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: CORRECT. THEY CAN BE ARRAIGNED

146

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FOR FELONIES AT TIMES.

MR. FLOOD: YEAH, THEY'RE ARRAIGNED AT FELONIES BUT

THEY'RE NOT -- THEY'RE NOT ADJUDICATING THE FELONIES?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: CORRECT.

MR. FLOOD: THERE ARE, I THINK -- I BELIEVE THERE'S

NINE OTHER STATES IN THE COUNTRY THAT ALLOW, YOU KNOW, NON-LAW SCHOOL-

TRAINED OR NON -- NON-BAR-ADMITTED JUDGES TO ADJUDICATE MISDEMEANORS.

WOULD YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHO -- WHICH ANY OF THEM ARE?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH, NINE OUT OF 50; TEXAS,

ARIZONA, NEVADA, COLORADO, LOUISIANA, SOUTH CAROLINA AND

MISSISSIPPI.

MR. FLOOD: GREAT. WHAT IS THE COMMON

DENOMINATOR BETWEEN ALL OF THOSE STATES AND NEW YORK?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: I DON'T KNOW.

MR. FLOOD: MANY OF -- ALL OF THOSE STATES IN EITHER

PART OR WHOLE HAVE EXTREMELY RURAL AREAS WITH VERY LOW POPULATION.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: ARE THERE OTHER STATES THAT HAVE

RURAL AREAS OR JUST THOSE?

MR. FLOOD: NO, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY OTHER STATES THAT

HAVE RURAL, THOSE -- BUT -- SO WHEN A NON-ATTORNEY IS ELECTED TO THE

BENCH, DO THEY SIMPLY JUST SHOW UP ON JANUARY 1ST WITH A GAVEL AND

SAY, HERE WE GO, OR IS THERE SOME TYPE OF TRAINING PROCEDURE THROUGH

THERE?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: NO, THERE'S A TRAINING PROCEDURE.

MR. FLOOD: RIGHT. AND IT'S -- AND WHO -- DO YOU

147

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

KNOW WHO ADMINISTERS THAT?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: OCA AND THE STATE MAGISTRATES

ASSOCIATION.

MR. FLOOD: OKAY. AND NOW, IN ORDER TO TAKE THE

BENCH A NON-ATTORNEY WOULD FIRST HAVE TO TAKE THAT AND COMPLETE A --

THEY NEED TO FILE WITH THEIR LOCAL CLERK'S OFFICE A CERTIFICATE COURSE

INDICATING THAT THEY'VE TAKEN THAT TEST, CORRECT?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: CORRECT.

MR. FLOOD: THERE'S ALSO MORE REGULATION THROUGH

THAT, ISN'T THERE? THEY DO HAVE -- SIMILAR TO CONTINUING LEGAL EDUCATION

THEY HAVE OTHER CLASSES THAT THEY HAVE TO TAKE, CORRECT?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: I THINK THAT'S THE MAIN TRAINING

THAT THEY HAVE TO DO.

MR. FLOOD: WELL, ACTUALLY UNDER THE STATE

MAGISTRATES ASSOCIATION TOWN JUSTICES MUST ALSO TAKE 12 HOURS EVERY

YEAR OF IN-CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION, AND NON-LAWYERS MUST ALSO PASS A TEST

ON TOP OF THAT INFORMATION.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: THEY HAVE TO DO 12 HOURS OF

TRAINING TO -- TO DISPENSE JUSTICE IN COURTS?

MR. FLOOD: AND THEY HAVE TO DO A WRITTEN

EXAMINATION, CORRECT.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: WOW. YOU CAN SENSE MY

SARCASM, BUT 12 HOURS?

MR. FLOOD: YEAH, 12 HOURS AND PASS A WRITTEN

EXAMINATION. AND AGAIN, YOU AND I BOTH WENT TO LAW SCHOOL --

148

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. ZEBROWSKI: RIGHT.

MR. FLOOD: MOST OF THESE THINGS THAT COME IN ARE

TRAFFIC OFFENSES, THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, SMALL-TIME LITIGATION, LANDLORD-

TENANT. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, GREAT LEGAL MINDS HERE.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: IF YOU'RE SOMEONE GETTING

EVICTED IT'S NOT SMALL.

MR. FLOOD: OR IF YOU'RE A LANDLORD TRYING TO EVICT,

I MEAN, THIS BODY MAKES IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. WE GIVE THEM --

PEOPLE 18, 24 MONTHS. SO, I MEAN --

MR. ZEBROWSKI: ALSO SOMEBODY THAT SHOULD BE

ABLE TO DEPEND UPON SOMEONE UNDERSTANDING AND BEING TRAINED IN THE

LAW FROM THE BENCH.

MR. FLOOD: OKAY. NOW, ARE -- ONCE A NON-

ATTORNEY JUSTICE IS PUT ON THE BENCH, ARE THEY JUST THROWN OUT TO THE

WOLVES OR -- OR IS THERE SUPPORT SYSTEMS OUT THERE FOR THEM?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: WELL, OCA AND THE STATE

MAGISTRATES ASSOCIATION I THINK GIVES THEM SUPPORT.

MR. FLOOD: UM, ACTUALLY -- YEAH, SO OVER RECENT

YEARS THEY'VE MADE SUBSTANTIAL FINANCIAL AND MATERIAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO

HELP ALLEVIATE THE BURDEN. SO WE DON'T SEE THIS -- YOU KNOW, I'M FROM

SUFFOLK COUNTY, NEW YORK. THERE MAY BE A NON-APPOINTED -- THERE

MAY BE A NON-ATTORNEY JUDGE THERE SOMEWHERE. I'VE NEVER CAME ACROSS

ONE. I -- I DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S ONE OUT IN NASSAU, PROBABLY NOT IN THE

CITY, PROBABLY NOT IN UPPER WESTCHESTER. BUT AS WE GO FURTHER WEST

AND WE GO FURTHER NORTH, POPULATIONS BECOME SMALLER, WE HAVE VILLAGES

149

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF MAYBE 500 PEOPLE, 600 PEOPLE, WHERE YOU MAY NOT REALLY HAVE A

POOL OF LAWYERS THAT ARE EITHER WILLING OR ABLE TO SERVE AS JUSTICES.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE THEM DO?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THERE MUST BE

SOME LAWYERS BECAUSE THE FOLKS THAT REPRESENT PEOPLE BETWEEN --

BEFORE THESE JUSTICES HAVE TO BE LAWYERS. SO I THINK THERE'S A

DISCONNECT, RIGHT? THE PEOPLE THAT --

MR. FLOOD: WELL, NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE I'M AN

ATTORNEY, MY -- MY PRACTICE IS IN PORT JEFFERSON. I CAN COME TAKE A

CLIENT IN ALBANY, BUT AN ALBANY ATTORNEY CAN'T BE A JUSTICE IN THE

VILLAGE OF PORT JEFF. SO YOU MAY --

MR. ZEBROWSKI: NO, MY POINT IS --

MR. FLOOD: -- YOU MAY HAVE A SMALL --

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: GENTLEMEN,

GENTLEMEN. QUESTION, ANSWER, QUESTION, ANSWER. LET HIM COMPLETE.

MR. FLOOD: MY APOLOGIES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: AND I APOLOGIZE AS WELL. MY

POINT IS THE -- THE LAWYERS WHO PRACTICE IN THOSE COURTS HAVE TO BE

LAWYERS, RIGHT? JUST BECAUSE IT'S A RURAL AREA DOESN'T MEAN THAT WELL,

WE DON'T HAVE LAWYERS, WE ALLOW LAY PEOPLE TO REPRESENT PEOPLE. BUT

SOMEHOW WE HAVE THIS QUIRK WHERE THE PERSON THAT'S ACTUALLY -- THE

PERSON THAT'S ARGUING THE CASE MUST BE A LAWYER, BUT THE PERSON THAT'S

DECIDING THE CASE IS ALLOWED TO -- TO NOT BE A LAWYER. SO IN THOSE RURAL

AREAS, I HAVE TO ASSUME THAT THERE ARE LAWYERS. BUT IF SOMEHOW THERE

150

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ARE NOT, AS I SAID TO START, THIS IS A COMPROMISE BILL AND THIS ALLOWS THE

MUNICIPALITY TO DO IT. NOW IN ALL HONESTY, AS YOU MAY GATHER FROM MY

COMMENTS EXPLAINING THE BILL, I DON'T THINK THIS REALLY GOES FAR ENOUGH.

BUT WE ARE A SYSTEM OF COMPROMISES, AND SO THIS IS WHAT IS ON THE

FLOOR. SO I DON'T -- I DON'T THINK IN THOSE SCENARIOS THAT THE LOCAL

GOVERNMENT WOULD OPT INTO THIS SYSTEM.

MR. FLOOD: OKAY. AND I CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR

POINT, BUT I -- I DO KNOW THEN -- YOU KNOW, OUR CONFERENCE, WE HAVE

SEEN SUBSTANTIAL OPPOSITION FROM THIS FROM THESE AREAS BECAUSE I KNOW,

YOU KNOW -- I KNOW YOU COME FROM AN AREA OF HIGH POPULATION, FAIRLY.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: FAIRLY HIGH, YEAH. I MEAN, WELL,

IF YOU ASK SOMEONE IN MANHATTAN, NOT HIGH, BUT SOMEONE UPSTATE, YES,

HIGH.

MR. FLOOD: YES. SO, BUT WHEN YOU GO -- AND LIKE

YOU SAID, AS -- AS AN ATTORNEY YOU CAN GO IN ANY COURT AND PRACTICE.

BUT NOT EVERY -- NOT EVERY VILLAGE HAS AN ABILITY TO LET AN OUTSIDE

JUSTICE COME IN. I MEAN, I'VE PRACTICED ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT THAT

DOESN'T MEAN THAT I CAN GO AND SIT UP IN, YOU KNOW, ONONDAGA COUNTY

AS A VILLAGE JUSTICE. I -- I DON'T -- I DON'T MEET THEIR, YOU KNOW, THEIR

RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS,

MR. ZEBROWSKI: RIGHT. UM --

MR. FLOOD: SO THOSE JUSTICES -- I UNDERSTAND YOUR

POINT, BUT --

MR. ZEBROWSKI: SO TWO THINGS, IF -- IF I COULD.

ONE, I DON'T THINK IN ONONDAGA COUNTY OR WHATEVER OTHER COUNTY, IT'S

151

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REALLY THE TOWNS AND THE VILLAGES, THAT THEY WOULD ADOPT THIS. WE'RE

GIVING THEM THE OPTION. BUT NUMBER TWO, WE HAVE ADOPTED BILLS FOR A

VARIETY OF VILLAGES THAT HAVE ALLOWED RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT

EXEMPTIONS SO THAT SOMEBODY FROM A -- AN ADJOINING -- AND EVEN

THOUGH I'M IN A -- A DOWNSTATE COUNTY, THERE ARE A COUPLE JUDGES THAT

ARE -- ARE NOT ATTORNEYS, AND WE ALSO HAVE A COUPLE OF VILLAGES THAT

HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THAT, GOTTEN SPECIAL LEGISLATION AND HAVE FOLKS.

MR. FLOOD: I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT WOULD IT BE FAIR

TO SAY THAT IF YOU HAVE A VILLAGE ELECTION AND YOU HAVE PEOPLE RUNNING

FOR, YOU KNOW, VILLAGE JUSTICE OR TOWN JUSTICE NOT FROM THE AREA THAT

YOUR ELECTORATE MAY NOT HAVE THE BEST IDEA OF WHO THEY'RE ACTUALLY

VOTING FOR?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: WOULD THEY -- WOULD THEY KNOW

SOMEBODY FROM THE AREA BETTER THAN SOMEBODY OUTSIDE THE AREA,

PRESUMABLY?

MR. FLOOD: I WOULD -- I WOULD ASSUME IN A VILLAGE

OF 5- OR 600 THAT MOST PEOPLE KNOW EACH OTHER. I MEAN, I KNOW MOST

PEOPLE I WENT TO SCHOOL WITH AND I WENT TO -- YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN A

MUCH BIGGER AREA.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: RIGHT.

MR. FLOOD: SO --

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH, THEY MIGHT KNOW THE

PERSON BETTER. MAYBE THEY WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL WITH THE PERSON. I'M

NOT SURE THAT'S THE CRITERIA FOR WHO SHOULD BE DISPENSING JUSTICE, BUT

THEY MIGHT KNOW THE PERSON BETTER.

152

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. FLOOD: I -- I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT, YOU KNOW,

WHEN YOU'RE VOTING FOR SOMEONE, USUALLY YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF WHO THEY

ARE, WHERE THEY ARE AS A PERSON. MAYBE YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO KNOW

THEM. MOST LOCAL -- MOST LOCAL ELECTIONS HAVE THAT SORT OF LOCAL FEEL

WHERE YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: YEAH.

MR. FLOOD: IN THIS SITUATION YOU MAY NOT.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE

PROBLEM, RIGHT? THIS ISN'T SOMEBODY WHO'S, YOU KNOW, RUNNING THE

LOCAL PARKS AND THIS ISN'T SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, MAY BE DEALING

WITH LOCAL SANITATION. THIS IS SOMEBODY MAKING DECISIONS ON PROPERTY,

ON LIBERTY FOR FOLKS IN A COURT SYSTEM. THE FOLKS HAVE TO BE ADMITTED TO

THE BAR TO ARGUE BEFORE THEM. I -- I DON'T THINK IT'S THE SAME AS OTHER

ELECTED MUNICIPAL POSITIONS.

MR. FLOOD: I CAN SEE PART OF YOUR POINT, BUT I ALSO

SEE THAT -- I MEAN, REGARDLESS OF WHAT POSITION IT IS, IF YOU HAVE AN IDEA

OF THE PERSON AND AN IDEA OF HOW THAT PERSON'S BEHAVIOR IS AND WHAT

THEIR MANNERISMS ARE OR HOW THEY ACT, YOU MIGHT HAVE A BETTER IDEA OF

WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE POSITION IS. THAT'S JUST

ALL I'M SAYING. I BELIEVE THIS ALSO BRINGS UP, HOWEVER, ANOTHER ISSUE

WITH THAT, IS THAT IF THIS VILLAGE OR COURT OR TOWN DECIDES TO ADOPT THESE

LAWS, THEY COULD ESSENTIALLY THEN APPOINT IN A SMALL DISTRICT, SAY THERE'S

ONLY ONE PERSON WITH THEIR HAND IN THE AIR, AND HIS TWO FRIENDS SIT ON

THE CITY COUNCIL OR THE TOWN VILLAGE BOARD. THEY CAN ESSENTIALLY JUST

TAKE AWAY THAT CHOICE AND SAY, WELL, HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT'S QUALIFIED

153

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FOR IT, HE'S GONNA BE IT. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN UNDER

THIS?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T -- YOU

DON'T HAVE AN IDEAL SITUATION. AND SO IF YOU HAD A SCENARIO WHERE IT

WAS A NON-ATTORNEY OR AN ATTORNEY, I STILL THINK THAT ATTORNEY IS BETTER

TRAINED TO MAKE THE LEGAL DECISIONS NECESSARY IN A COURT SYSTEM.

MR. FLOOD: THAT COULD BE TRUE. I -- I ALSO THINK

THERE ARE OTHER JUDGES OUT THERE THAT STRING TOGETHER NONSENSE AND COME

UP WITH, I -- I DON'T KNOW, THEIR OWN DETERMINATIONS ON WHAT'S GUILTY

AND WHAT'S NOT. THAT -- YOU KNOW, SO I -- I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK

WHEN MANY HAVE JUSTICE, IT NECESSARILY MEANS THAT SOMEONE WITH A LAW

DEGREE CAN, YOU KNOW, JUST LOOK AT THE STATUTE AND SAY, THIS IS THE LAW

AND THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GONNA UPHOLD COMPARED TO ONE THAT'S TRAINED. I

THINK ON THE PART OF THAT PERSON WHO IS LITIGATING IT MIGHT HAVE A BETTER

UNDERSTANDING OF IT OR UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MAKE THE ARGUMENTS.

MR. ZEBROWSKI: I -- I -- I HEAR YOU. THERE'S

CERTAINLY FOLKS THAT COULD BE ADMITTED TO THE BAR THAT COULD RUN AFOUL OF

ETHICS OR ANYTHING ELSE. BUT THAT'S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE

DATA, AND OVER THE PAST TEN YEARS 20 -- 20 PERCENT OF THE COMPLAINTS

RECEIVED BY THE JUDICIAL COMMISSION WERE AGAINST TOWN AND VILLAGE

JUSTICES, BUT 72 PERCENT OF THE PUBLIC DECISIONS INVOLVED THEM. SO IT

WAS 120 OUT OF THE 167 PUBLIC DECISIONS AND 90 OF THOSE 120.

MR. FLOOD: OKAY. I -- I DO UNDERSTAND THAT BUT --

MR. ZEBROWSKI: SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT WERE THE

NON-ATTORNEYS.

154

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. FLOOD: I UNDERSTAND THAT. I -- I BELIEVE THERE'S

ALSO -- IN THE STATE THERE'S APPROXIMATELY 1,800 VILLAGE AND TOWN

JUSTICES, OF WHICH I THINK ABOUT 700 OF THEM ARE NON-ATTORNEY JUSTICES.

SO IF THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT, YOU'RE -- YOU'RE TAKING UP ABOUT, YOU KNOW,

A THIRD OR 60 PERCENT OR SO OR, YOU KNOW -- I'M SORRY, ABOUT 40 PERCENT

OF ALL THE JUSTICES OF THESE TOWN AND VILLAGE COURTS HAVE TO GO FIND AND

ELECT NEW JUDGES. IS THE TIME FRAME OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO WITH

THIS EVEN PRACTICAL?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: I THINK IT IS. ONCE AGAIN, IT'S A

LOCAL OPTION. SO I ACTUALLY THINK IF THIS PASSES AND GETS SIGNED INTO

LAW, IT WON'T GO AS FAR AS I WOULD LIKE IT, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK A LOT OF

THOSE JURISDICTIONS ARE GOING TO DO IT, BUT SOME MAY.

MR. FLOOD: ALL RIGHT. WELL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR

QUESTIONS [SIC].

MR. ZEBROWSKI: THANK YOU.

MR. FLOOD: MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL, PLEASE?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.

FLOOD.

MR. FLOOD: YOU KNOW -- AND -- AND I DO VALUE MY

COLLEAGUE'S INPUT AND I DO THINK AT SOME POINT THAT THIS IS AN IMPERFECT

SYSTEM. HOWEVER, I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE UNINTENDED

CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WITH THIS OF ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HAVE

A SHORTFALL OF JUDGES. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT VILLAGE AND TOWN JUSTICES IN

VERY SMALL AREAS, VERY RURAL AREAS, YOU MAY NOT HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF

PEOPLE PUTTING THEIR HANDS UP AND SAYING, I WANT TO DO THIS, OR YOU MAY

155

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR SOMEONE TO COME IN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF

THE SITUATION AND KIND OF LOCK DOWN THE COURTS FOREVER BECAUSE THEY'RE

THE ONLY ONES AVAILABLE TO DO THIS. WE'VE HAD THIS SITUATION IN PLACE FOR

SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS. I -- I JUST THINK THIS IS -- WE DON'T HAVE A REALLY

SERIOUS PROBLEM HERE. I KNOW WHAT THE COUNSELOR SAID AND I'VE LOOKED

AT A LOT OF THESE COMPLAINTS. MOST OF THEM ARE A WRONG APPLICATION OF

THE LAW, MAYBE OVERZEALOUS IN A BAIL PROCEEDING, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

MOST OF THOSE BAIL REFORM LAWS HAVE BEEN CHANGED AND COMPLETELY

TAKEN OUT OF THE HANDS OF JUDGES, SO THAT'S NOT EVEN AN ISSUE ANYMORE.

AND I -- I THINK WE, BY DOING THIS, COULD ACTUALLY BE LOOKING IN A

COUPLE YEARS TO COME BACK AND MAKE CHANGES BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF

AVAILABLE JUSTICES IN AN AREA, OR THE OVER -- THE ABUSE OF THE SYSTEM BY

BASICALLY LEAVING THESE SMALL VILLAGES AND TOWNS WITH LITTLE TO NO

CHOICE OF WHO THEY ELECT.

FOR THIS REASON, I BELIEVE -- I -- I BELIEVE THIS BILL

SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DRAWING TABLE AND TINKER A LITTLE BIT MORE. I -- I

DO APPRECIATE WHAT MY COLLEAGUE IS TRYING TO DO. IT IS AN IMPERFECT

SYSTEM, I'LL BE THE FIRST ONE TO ADMIT IT. BUT I THINK IF WE ROCK THE BOAT

TOO MUCH IT'S GONNA GET TOO DIFFICULT FOR LITIGANTS AND TOO DIFFICULT FOR

THE RURAL AND SMALL VILLAGES AND COMMUNITIES. SO I'LL BE VOTING IN THE

NEGATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MS. BYRNES.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU. I'D LIKE TO JUST BE HEARD

ON THE BILL.

156

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU. I'VE LISTENED FOR THE LAST

FEW MINUTES ABOUT A NUMBER OF THESE STATEMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE

ON THE FLOOR HERE, AND I MUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS A JUDGE IN THE

CITY OF ROCHESTER FOR TEN YEARS. EVEN WHEN I WAS AN ASSISTANT DISTRICT

ATTORNEY ASSIGNED TO TOWN AND VILLAGE COURTS MANY DECADES AGO,

FREQUENTLY THEY WERE LAY JUDGES. AND NOW WHERE I LIVE, WHICH IS IN

ONE OF THE MOST RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF OUR

JUDGES ARE LAY JUDGES. I HAPPEN TO LIVE IN A TOWN AND A VILLAGE WHERE

ONE OF THE LAY JUDGES HAS BEEN THERE FOR OVER 30 YEARS. HE'S ONE OF THE

MOST RESPECTED JUDGES IN THE -- IN THE COURT SYSTEM THROUGHOUT THE

STATE FOR THE MAGISTRATES. IRONICALLY, THE OTHER ONE IS A LAW CLERK TO A

SUPREME COURT JUDGE WHO LIVES IN TOWN. SO WE BOTH HAVE AN ATTORNEY

JUDGE AND WE HAVE LAY -- VERY EDUCATED LAY JUDGE. WE HAVE NO

PROBLEMS WITH EITHER ONE OF THOSE GENTLEMEN. YOU KNOW, THE -- THE

JUDGES THAT I'VE SEEN, BE THEY ATTORNEY JUDGES OR BE THEY NON-ATTORNEY

JUDGES, THEY TAKE THEIR JOBS SERIOUSLY, THEY TAKE THEIR TRAINING SERIOUSLY.

THEY HAVE ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGES FROM THE OFFICE OF COURT

ADMINISTRATION WHO OVERSEE THEM ALL THE TIME. ALL OF THE

REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL OF THE COURT SYSTEMS INCLUDING AUDITS APPLY TO

THEM AS WELL. THEY ARE OVERSEEN STRENUOUSLY BY THE OFFICE OF COURT

ADMINISTRATION. THE MAGISTRATES ASSOCIATION ALSO OFFERS ROUTINELY ALL

OF THE INFORMATION IN THE WORLD THAT ANY MAGISTRATE NEEDS IN ORDER TO

HAVE -- EDUCATE THEMSELVES OR TO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ANY CASE THAT'S IN

FRONT OF THEM, SHOULD THE JUDGE BE THEY ATTORNEY OR NON-ATTORNEY HAVE

157

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW TO HANDLE SOMETHING.

SO I REALLY THINK THAT WHILE THIS IS, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,

"GIVING TOWNS AND VILLAGES THE OPTION," IT CLEARLY IS STEP ONE. AS THE

SPONSOR SAID, HE HAD OTHER MORE STRENUOUS BILLS, THIS WAS THE

COMPROMISE FOR NOW. SO WE KNOW THERE'S MORE COMING, WE KNOW THAT

LAY JUDGES ARE BEING TARGETED. BUT THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JOB,

ESPECIALLY IN OUR RURAL AREAS. AND I DO WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

THAT, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WITH THE NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS THAT ARE NOW

WORKING FOR PUBLIC DEFENDERS, CONFLICT DEFENDERS, OUR COUNTY LAW

DEPARTMENTS FOR SOCIAL SERVICES, THE VAST MAJORITY OF ALL OF THE

ATTORNEYS THAT EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS THE LAW CLERK TO A

COUNTY COURT JUDGE IN LIVINGSTON COUNTY, ALL -- THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE

ATTORNEYS THAT WERE IN PRIVATE PRACTICE ARE -- ARE NOW ALL WORKING FOR

THE GOVERNMENT. THEY'VE ALL GOTTEN JOBS WITH THE SYSTEM BECAUSE WE

HAVE CREATED SO MANY JOBS WITH THE SYSTEMS, INCLUDING, I WOULD POINT

OUT, PUBLIC DEFENDERS WHO ARE PRESENT AT EVERY ARRAIGNMENT IN ALL OF

THESE TOWN AND VILLAGE COURTS. THESE JUDGES AREN'T GETTING UP IN THE

MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND MAKING WILLY-NILLY DECISIONS. THEY ARE THERE

ALREADY WITH ATTORNEYS FOR THE DEFENDANTS IN PERSON. SO THIS IS NOT AN

UNEDUCATED GROUP OF PEOPLE. SO WE HAVE A VERY SMALL POOL OF

ATTORNEYS. MANY OF THE TOWNS AND VILLAGES WHO MAY HAVE ONLY 1-, 2-

OR 3,000 -- 3,000 RESIDENTS DO NOT -- DO NOT HAVE ATTORNEYS WHO LIVE IN

THEIR TOWNS OR VILLAGES. AND THAT IS TRUE. AND EVEN IN MY VILLAGE WE

HAVE NO LAWYER WHO HAS A SHINGLE OUT PRACTICING LAW IN MY TOWN.

THERE ARE NONE ANYMORE, THEY'RE ALL WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT. THE

158

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FEW THAT ARE OUT THERE WOULD HAVE A LOT OF CONFLICTS. IF THEY TRIED TO BE

A JUDGE, THEN THEY HAVE CONFLICTS WHEN THEY WOULD GO TO REPRESENT

SOMEBODY IN A VILLAGE COURT. SO A LOT OF ATTORNEYS DON'T WANT TO BE

JUDGES BECAUSE IT PRESENTS THEM IN A CONFLICT WHERE THEN THEY CAN'T

PERFORM THEIR JOBS IN OTHER WAYS. SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS AS A

BROADER SPECTRUM. ALL IN ALL, I REALLY THINK THEY DO A GOOD JOB. IT

DISTURBS ME TO HEAR HOW THIS BODY THINKS SO LITTLE OF PEOPLE THAT INVEST

IN THEIR JOBS. WE'VE ALL COME HERE FROM DIFFERENT JOBS IN DIFFERENT

WAYS, YET EACH OF US BELIEVES WE'RE DOING OUR JOB RIGHT AND WE'RE DOING

IT THE RIGHT WAY FOR OUR CONSTITUENTS. WHY SHOULD WE CAST DISPERSIONS

ON OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THEIR JOBS?

ALL I WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH IS OBVIOUSLY THIS BILL IS

HERE IS BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE POST -- OR IT'S GOING TO BE VOTED ON AND

IT'S GONNA GET PASSED. I KNOW THAT. BUT I THINK IT'S UNFAIR AND IT'S SAD

HOW MUCH YOU ATTACK THESE JUDGES, MANY OF WHOM HAVE SPENT

COUNTLESS HOURS AND COUNTLESS DECADES MAKING SURE THAT THEY WERE

DOING THEIR JOB CORRECTLY. THANK YOU. I'M VOTING NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD

FOR ONE QUESTION, PLEASE?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ZEBROWSKI, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: OF COURSE I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ZEBROWSKI

YIELDS.

159

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: WOULD -- WOULD THIS BILL

BE A MANDATE THAT TOWNS AND VILLAGES WOULD HAVE TO DECIDE TO CHANGE

THE STATUS OF THEIR JUDGES' EDUCATION?

MR. ZEBROWSKI: NO, IT WOULD BE AT THEIR OPTION.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: OKAY. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS. THOSE WHO WISH TO SUPPORT IT

CAN CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION. IF

THOSE -- SOMEONE WOULD LIKE TO BE AN EXCEPTION THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE

TO VOTE AT THEIR SEATS. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MS. WALLACE TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. WALLACE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I REPRESENT A TOWN THAT

160

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HAS ALMOST 90,000 RESIDENTS, AND YET BOTH OF THE JUDGES IN THAT TOWN DO

NOT HOLD LAW DEGREES. NOTHING ABOUT THIS BILL IS GOING TO FORCE THAT

TOWN TO CHANGE THAT. THIS BILL JUST SAYS THE TOWN CAN, IF IT CHOOSES TO,

CAN MANDATE IT. BUT IT REALLY IS UP TO THE TOWN ITSELF. IT IS A LOCAL

CONTROL BILL. THIS IS NOT A BILL WHERE THE STATE IS SAYING YOU MUST DO

THIS. I DO FEEL COMPELLED TO STAND UP, THOUGH, BECAUSE I VEHEMENTLY

DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE DURING THIS

DEBATE ABOUT THE EDUCATION OF THE JUDGES. TO SOMEHOW EQUATE 12

HOURS OF TRAINING TO THREE YEARS IN LAW SCHOOL AND PASSING THE BAR EXAM

IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. TWELVE HOURS -- A STUDENT IN LAW SCHOOL IS --

IS -- IN ONE WEEK DOES 12 HOURS OF TRAINING.

SO, YOU KNOW, I REALLY THINK THAT THIS IS A BILL THAT IS

ABOUT LOCAL CONTROL AND -- BUT I ALSO THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE

ENCOURAGING MUNICIPALITIES TO MAN -- TO ENCOURAGE LAW -- LAWYERS TO

HAVE THESE POSITIONS BECAUSE WE KNOW WHEN SOMEBODY GOES BEFORE A

JUDGE IN A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING, THE PROSECUTION HAS TO BE A LAWYER AND

THE PERSON REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT HAS TO BE A LAWYER. AND IT'S

KIND OF RIDICULOUS THAT THE JUDGES THEMSELVES DON'T HAVE TO BE LAWYERS.

SO I DO SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION WHICH AGAIN, DOES NOT FORCE

MUNICIPALITIES TO DO ANYTHING, IT JUST GIVES THEM THE OPTION.

THANK YOU, AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WALLACE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. EACHUS TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. EACHUS: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

161

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ALLOWING ME TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS I FIND

OUT THAT I'M IN THE MINORITY HERE IN THIS ASSEMBLY BECAUSE I AM NOT A

LAWYER. AND I RESPECT EVERY LAWYER THAT SITS HERE IN THIS HOUSE,

BECAUSE I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT LAWYERS HAVE HAD MUCH BETTER

TRAINING, MUCH BETTER SCHOOLING, AND THAT, ONE, THEY UNDERSTAND THE LAW

MUCH BETTER THAN I WOULD, AND NUMBER TWO, THEY ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND

THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BETTER THAN I DO. BECAUSE ANY TIME WE GET THESE

BILLS, I CAN HARDLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IN THE LEGALESE

LANGUAGE. AND SO I PERSONALLY WOULD LIKE SOMEBODY SITTING ON THE

BENCH WHO IS GOING TO MAKE A JUDGMENT ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT I MIGHT

HAVE, HAVING MORE BACKING, MORE -- EXCUSE ME, EDUCATION, MORE

EXPERIENCE IN THIS THAN JUST AN AVERAGE, YOU KNOW, PERSON WHO WE

MIGHT PICK OFF THE STREET. I ALSO -- I -- I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN ANYBODY

ELSE ON THIS FLOOR. I HAVE A MASTER'S, BUT NOT IN LAW. AND I ALSO DON'T

UNDERSTAND WHERE THE WORD "OPTION" IS LOST ON SOME OF THESE FOLKS,

BECAUSE AS MY COLLEAGUE JUST MENTIONED, THIS IS NOT "SHALL" OR "WILL" OR

ANYTHING ELSE LIKE THAT.

SO IN THOSE TERMS I AM GLAD TO -- AND I THANK THE

SPONSOR FOR DOING THIS, I AM GLAD TO VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. EACHUS IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. STECK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. STECK: THIS DEBATE REMINDED ME OF WHEN I

WAS A VERY YOUNG LAWYER AND ONE OF THE FIRST CASES I HAD IN COURT WAS

IN FRONT OF A NON-LAWYER JUDGE IN A TOWN WHICH CERTAINLY HAD PLENTY OF

162

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LAWYERS. AND THE NON-LAWYER JUDGE ENFORCED A RESTRICTIVE COVENANT

AGAINST AN AEROBICS INSTRUCTOR, PROHIBITING HER FROM GIVING CLASSES AT A

LOCAL SCHOOL. THEN I HAD ANOTHER ONE WHERE THE TOWN JUSTICE, ANOTHER

NON-LAWYER, WENT TO THE LOCAL PAPER AND ATTACKED THE DEFENDANT IN THE

CASE AND WE HAD TO SUE THE JUDGE AND THANKFULLY THE JUDGE WAS

REPRESENTED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE AND WE WERE ABLE TO

RESOLVE THE MATTER.

BUT FOR -- BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE, I VOTE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. STECK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 14, RULES REPORT NO. 246, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A06889-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 246, LAVINE, WALLACE, KIM, STECK, HEVESI, SIMON,

ZEBROWSKI, SIMONE, DINOWITZ, BURGOS. AN ACT TO AMEND THE CIVIL

PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, IN RELATION TO ARBITRATION.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. LAVINE.

MR. LAVINE: OF COURSE. SO, THIS BILL REVISES

ARBITRATION RULES CONCERNING THE LOCATION OF MULTIPLE-PARTY ARBITRATION,

THE PROCEDURE FOR SERVING NOTICE OF INTENTION TO ARBITRATE, THE RIGHT TO

LEGAL REPRESENTATION IN ARBITRATION, AND REGULATIONS REGARDING FEES,

163

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

EXPENSES AND BREACHES IN EMPLOYMENT OR CONSUMER ARBITRATION. TO BE

A LITTLE MORE SPECIFIC, IT WOULD ALLOW ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS TO OCCUR

IN ANY COURT AND COUNTY WHERE ANY OF THE PARTIES SEEKING ARBITRATION

RESIDE, DO BUSINESS OR WHERE THE ARBITRATION WAS HELD OR IS PENDING. IT

WOULD ADDRESS FEES, EXPENSES AND BREACHES OF ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS

IN EMPLOYMENT OR CONSUMER ARBITRATION, INCLUDING PROVISIONS FOR

PAYMENT OF FEES AND COSTS, CONSEQUENCES OF NONPAYMENT, SANCTIONS FOR

BREACHES AND PROCEDURES FOR CONTINUING OR WITHDRAWING FROM

ARBITRATION. THE IDEA HERE IS TO PROTECT NEW YORK STATE'S CONSUMERS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. LAVINE, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. LAVINE: OF COURSE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. LAVINE YIELDS,

SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. LAVINE. YOU

MENTIONED A COUPLE OF WAYS THIS CHANGES THE CURRENT LAW. IF I COULD,

I'D LIKE TO JUST KIND OF WALK THROUGH THOSE SO WE UNDERSTAND THE NATURE

AND THE EXTENT OF THE CHANGES.

MR. LAVINE: SO WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, CAN I JUST

MENTION SOMETHING?

MR. GOODELL: CERTAINLY.

MR. LAVINE: WE HAVE WORKED TOGETHER FOR MANY

164

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

YEARS, AND YOU HAVE BEEN A GREAT LEGISLATOR AND YOU ARE A GREAT COUNTRY

LAWYER. AND I ALSO WANT TO MENTION ONE OTHER THING, AND I THINK YOU

AND I, I'M ALMOST POSITIVE, ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO ARE

GONNA KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. BUT IN A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION

SOME YEARS AGO, YOU REALLY, REALLY DID WHAT WAS RIGHT IN A VERY DIFFICULT

INTERPERSONAL SITUATION, AND YOU STOOD VERY TALL TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE

-- THE EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE ON OUR STAFF, AND I THANK YOU FOR

THAT.

MR. GOODELL: WELL, THANK YOU FOR THOSE NICE

COMMENTS. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT --

(LAUGHTER)

BUT I AM -- I'M MOST HOPEFUL THAT AT LEAST YOU KNOW

WHAT THIS BILL IS ABOUT.

(LAUGHTER)

THANK YOU, MR. LAVINE. YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE'S A

CHANGE IN VENUE OR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING THE LAWSUIT. WHAT IS THE

CURRENT LAW AND HOW DOES THAT COMPARE WITH WHAT THIS PROVIDES? I

HAVE IN FRONT OF ME WHAT THIS PROVIDES, THIS PROVIDES THAT YOU CAN

BRING AN ACTION IN ANY LOCATION WHERE ANY OF THE PARTIES RESIDE. WHAT'S

THE CURRENT LAW?

MR. LAVINE: WELL, AS OPPOSED TO THE PRESENT

SYSTEM, THE CURRENT SYSTEM IN WHICH THE PLACES WHERE SOMEBODY CAN

ARBITRATE OR BEGIN A LAWSUIT ARE SPECIFIED IN THE CONTRACTUAL

RELATIONSHIP. WE NOW, AS YOU WELL KNOW, IN -- IN LINES 3 TO 6 OF THE

BILL PROVIDE THAT WHERE THERE ARE MULTIPLE PARTIES WHO ARE SEEKING

165

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ARBITRATION AGAINST THE SAME PARTY OR PARTIES, THE PROCEEDING MAY BE

BROUGHT IN ANY COURT AND COUNTY WHERE ANY OF THE PARTIES SEEKING

ARBITRATION RESIDE OR ARE DOING BUSINESS OR WHERE THE ARBITRATION, IF IT'S

GOING ON, WAS HELD OR IS PENDING.

MR. GOODELL: SO UNDER THE CURRENT LAW THE

ARBITRATION HAS TO BE BROUGHT WHERE THE PARTIES SPECIFY BY CONTRACT?

MR. LAVINE: WELL, WHERE THE -- THE PARTY THAT DREW

THE -- DREW THE CONTRACT SPECIFIED. IT'S -- THE PARTIES DRAWING THE

CONTRACT ARE GENERALLY NOT GOING TO PROVIDE FOR A VENUE TO BE SET IN A --

IN A PLACE THAT'S NOT CONVENIENT TO THE PARTY DRAWING THE CONTRACT. I'M

SURE WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU'RE BEING A GOOD LAWYER DRAW CONTRACTS

DEALING WITH THESE ARBITRATION ISSUES, YOU MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S THE

CASE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, WE HONOR THOSE VENUE

PROVISIONS AND CONTRACTS OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF ARBITRATION, CORRECT?

MR. LAVINE: GENERALLY SPEAKING, YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND OF COURSE YOU OFTEN SEE THEM

IN CONTRACTS INVOLVING NATIONAL COMPANIES. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU RENT A

CAR, THEY'LL SAY IF YOU WANT TO BRING A LAWSUIT REGARDING THIS AGREEMENT

OR INSURANCE CONTRACTS OR STUDENT LOAN AGREEMENTS, IT SPECIFIES WHERE

THE LAWSUIT HAS TO BE COMMENCED, CORRECT?

MR. LAVINE: IN THOSE CONTRACTS, VERY OFTEN REFERRED

TO AS ADHESION CONTRACTS WHERE PARTIES DON'T HAVE EQUAL BARGAINING

POWER, THAT IS CERTAINLY THE CASE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW IRONICALLY, WHEN I BORROWED

166

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MONEY FOR MY STUDENT LOAN GOING TO LAW SCHOOL, THE STANDARD

PREPRINTED CONTRACT, AS YOU POINT OUT, IT WAS A STANDARD PREPRINTED

CONTRACT PROVIDED FOR VENUE IN THE CITY OF ALBANY. AND OF COURSE

BACK THEN, BEING YOUNGER AND SMARTER, I HAD NO INTENTIONS WHATSOEVER

OF EVER GOING TO ALBANY. SO I CROSSED IT OUT.

MR. LAVINE: (LAUGHING) LIFE IS FULL OF IRONY, ISN'T

IT, MR. GOODELL?

MR. GOODELL: IT SURE IS. SO I CROSSED IT OUT AND

PUT CHAUTAUQUA. THEY STILL GAVE ME THE LOAN, AS LONG AS I PAID THE

INTEREST THEY WERE HAPPY.

MR. LAVINE: BUT EVEN THEN, BEFORE LAW SCHOOL,

YOU HAD THE MAKINGS OF A GOOD LAWYER.

MR. GOODELL: SO -- SO WE'RE STILL ALLOWING THOSE

CONTRACT PROVISIONS TO APPLY WHEN IT COMES TO A LAWSUIT, BUT NOT WHEN

IT COMES TO ARBITRATION?

MR. LAVINE: NOT WHEN IT COMES TO ARBITRATION OR

LAWSUITS THAT STEM FROM ARBITRATION.

MR. GOODELL: THEN SECOND, THE SECOND AREA YOU

TALKED A LOT ABOUT RELATED TO FEES. NOW, OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF TIMES AN

ARBITRATION AGREEMENT WILL SPECIFY WHO PAYS WHAT FEES. SO IF -- IT'S NOT

UNCOMMON IF YOU INITIATE THE ARBITRATION, YOU MIGHT PAY THE INITIATION

FEE TO KICK IT OFF. OFTENTIMES THEY SPLIT THE COST OF THE ARBITRATION,

SOMETIMES THEY AWARD IT TO THE WINNING PARTY. THAT -- ALL THOSE

CONTRACTUAL PROVISIONS ARE CHANGED OR OVERRIDDEN BY THIS STATUTE. THIS

STATUTE PROVIDES THAT THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE CONTRACT PAYS ALL THOSE

167

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FEES AND EXPENSES, CORRECT?

MR. LAVINE: AND THAT'S AT LINE 29 OF PAGE 2. IT'S

NOT A LENGTHY BILL, BY THE WAY. IT'S ABOUT 100 -- AS YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT

170 LINES, AND MOST OF THEM, OR AT LEAST HALF OF THEM ARE DUPLICATIVE.

MR. GOODELL: SO EVEN IF THE PARTY WHO DRAFTED

THE AGREEMENT WINS THE ARBITRATION, THE PARTY WHO DRAFTED THE

AGREEMENT HAS TO PAY ALL OF THE ARBITRATION EXPENSES?

MR. LAVINE: WELL, THIS SAYS THE DRAFTING PARTY

SHALL PAY CERTAIN FEES AND COSTS BEFORE THE ARBITRATION CAN PROCEED. IF

THE FEES OR COSTS ARE -- ARE NOT PAID, THEN THERE'S BIG TROUBLE FOR THE

PARTY DRAFTING THE -- THE CONTRACT.

MR. GOODELL: AND IF THE DRAFTING PARTY WINS THE

ARBITRATION, DOES THE DRAFTING PARTY GET REIMBURSED FOR THOSE FEES?

MR. LAVINE: THAT -- LET ME GIVE YOU A VERY

UN-LAWYERLY ANSWER. I'M NOT 100 PERCENT SURE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, BUT

THIS BILL DOESN'T, I DON'T THINK, ADDRESS THAT.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. OKAY. THEN THIS BILL ADDS A

SERIES OF SANCTIONS.

MR. LAVINE: YES.

MR. GOODELL: AND ALL THOSE SANCTIONS APPLY JUST

TO THE DRAFTER OF THE AGREEMENT; IS THAT CORRECT?

MR. LAVINE: YES.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. I HAVE NO OTHER

QUESTIONS. AGAIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. LAVINE.

ON THE BILL, SIR.

168

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. OUR COURTS HAVE

REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT THAT ARBITRATION IS OFTEN A VERY FAST AND EFFICIENT

WAY, OFTEN MUCH FASTER AND MORE EFFICIENT AND LESS EXPENSIVE THAN THE

COURT SYSTEM ITSELF. AND SO WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY IN NEW YORK STATE

OF SUPPORTING ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY

THEY TEND TO BE VERY MUCH CONSUMER-FRIENDLY. THEY'RE ALSO BUSINESS-

FRIENDLY BECAUSE NO BUSINESS WANTS TO BE TIED UP IN COURT. AND SO IT

PROVIDES A FAST, EFFICIENT, COST-EFFECTIVE WAY TO RESOLVE DISPUTES. BUT

IT'S NOT JUST NEW YORK STATE THAT FAVORS ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS, IT'S NOT

JUST OUR COURT SYSTEM OR OUR COURT OF APPEALS. ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS

ARE FAVORED ON A NATIONAL LEVEL AND, IN FACT, THERE'S A NATIONAL FEDERAL

LAW DEALING WITH ARBITRATION. AND THE CONGRESS FELT SO STRONGLY IN

FAVOR OF ARBITRATION, THEY ACTUALLY PROVIDE THAT STATES DON'T HAVE THE

POWER TO IMPLEMENT ARBITRATION PROCEDURES THAT IMPACT THE FEDERAL --

FEDERAL ARBITRATION LAW. SO AS MY COLLEAGUE POINTS OUT, OFTENTIMES

THESE ARBITRATION PROVISIONS ARE CONTAINED IN INSURANCE CONTRACTS OR

MAYBE IF YOU RENT A CAR OR YOU BORROW MONEY, AND THEY'RE ALL DESIGNED

FOR THE BENEFIT OF BOTH PARTIES. AND LIKE ANY CONTRACT, INCLUDING THE

ONE I SIGNED BEFORE I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, YEAH, THE CONSUMER CAN

ALWAYS CROSS IT OUT. RARELY DO THEY EVER READ IT, MUCH LESS CHANGE IT,

BUT IT'S A CONTRACT, AND LIKE EVERY OTHER CONTRACT IT'S ENTITLED TO BE

ENFORCED. AND, IN FACT, THE U.S. CONSTITUTION SAYS WE, AS A LEGISLATURE,

DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO IMPAIR THE VALIDITY OF AN EXISTING CONTRACT.

SO WHAT'S THIS DO? THIS BILL SAYS THAT LET'S SAY YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY

169

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND YOU SAY ANY ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS HAVE TO BE DONE IN ALBANY, AS

AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOUR CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS ARE.

YOU SELL INSURANCE POLICIES THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NEW YORK. UNDER

THIS THEY CAN BRING AN ARBITRATION PROCEEDING IN ANY PLACE IN THE STATE

OF NEW YORK.

LET ME GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE. LET'S SAY YOU RENT

A CAR IN CLEVELAND BECAUSE YOU WANT TO DRIVE HOME. I'M NOT SURE THAT

AGREEMENT WOULD BE SUBJECT TO THIS, BUT IF SO, YOU CAN BRING A LAWSUIT

IN CLEVELAND. OR LET'S SAY IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY. YOU RENT A CAR IN NEW

YORK AND YOU DRIVE IT TO FLORIDA. THIS BILL PURPORTS TO GIVE YOU

STANDING TO SUE THE COMPANY IN FLORIDA OR BRING AN ARBITRATION IN

FLORIDA EVEN THOUGH THE COMPANY DOESN'T HAVE ANY PRESENCE THERE

NEVER CONSENTED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF ARBITRATION THERE.

BUT THE MOST ANTI-ARBITRATION PROVISION IN THIS IS THE

FACT THAT THE COMPANY THAT HAS THE ARBITRATION CLAUSE IN THEIR CONTRACT

HAS TO PAY THE COSTS FOR ANY ARBITRATION BROUGHT AGAINST IT. NOW, THINK

ABOUT THAT. WE'RE SAYING TO EVERY BUSINESS IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK

THAT USES AN ARBITRATION CLAUSE IN THEIR LOAN DOCUMENTS OR ANYWHERE

ELSE THAT IF SOMEONE BRINGS AN ACTION AGAINST THEM THEY HAVE TO PAY THE

COSTS OF SOMEONE BRINGING AN ACTION AGAINST THEM. AND AS MY

COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT, IF THEY WIN, THEY DON'T GET IT BACK. SO THIS PUTS

THE ENTIRE COST AND BURDEN ON THE COMPANIES THAT HAVE THE CONTRACT,

EVEN IF THEY WIN AND THAT'S JUST SIMPLY UNFAIR.

SO MY FRIENDS, I DON'T KNOW WHY WE HAVE THIS

HOSTILITY TOWARD ARBITRATION. MOST OF THE ARBITRATION CONTRACTS I'VE SEEN

170

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SAY THAT THE PARTIES SPLIT THE COST. SOME OF THEM SAY THE WINNING PARTY

PAYS. THIS, BY LAW, SAYS THAT THE COMPANY PAYS UP FRONT EVEN IF THERE'S

NO BASIS FOR THE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF THEY WIN 100 PERCENT, IT'S AN

OBLIGATION ON THE COMPANY AND IT'S ONE MORE WAY FOR NEW YORK TO SAY

TO ALL OF OUR BUSINESSES WHO PAY ALL OF OUR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES WHO

ARE STRUGGLING TO MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL HERE IN NEW YORK THAT, WE ARE

RAISING YOUR COST OF DOING BUSINESS AND WE DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE RIGHT OR

WRONG, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PAYING MORE IF YOU HAVE AN ARBITRATION

AGREEMENT AND ANYONE BRINGS AN ACTION AGAINST YOU EVEN IF THEY'RE

WRONG. THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I FEEL COMFORTABLE SUPPORTING AND I HOPE

YOU DON'T EITHER.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED, THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT SHOULD

CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, THE

MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF

LEGISLATION.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

171

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER, FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO INTERRUPT OUR PROCEEDINGS BRIEFLY TO

MAKE AN INTRODUCTION FOR OUR COLLEAGUE AILEEN GUNTHER. SHE HAS

GUESTS IN THE CHAMBERS; JOE ANDRE, TAMMY ANDRE AND JACK ANDRE.

AND THE ANDRE FAMILY IS FROM WALLKILL, NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CERTAINLY. ON BEHALF

OF MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, MRS. (AUDIO CUTS OUT) GUNTHER, THE SPEAKER

AND ALL THE MEMBERS, WE WELCOME THE ANDRE FAMILY HERE TO THE NEW

YORK STATE ASSEMBLY, EXTEND TO YOU THE PRIVILEGES OF THE FLOOR. OUR

THANKS FOR SPENDING THIS DAY WITH US AND SPENDING SOME TIME WITH

MRS. GUNTHER, KEEPING HER COMPANY AS WE CLOSE THE LEGISLATIVE

SESSION IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. HOPE YOU'VE HAD A GREAT TRIP, HOPE

YOU ENJOY THE SUMMER. GOOD TO SEE YOU.

(APPLAUSE)

PAGE 14, RULES REPORT NO. 254, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: SENATE NO. S07807-A, RULES REPORT

NO. 254, SENATOR SERRANO (FAHY, THIELE, SEAWRIGHT, LUNSFORD, LUCAS,

SHIMSKY, MCDONALD, SIMON, TAPIA, SANTABARBARA, BORES, KELLES,

DESTEFANO, SHRESTHA--A08274A). AN ACT TO AMEND THE PARKS,

172

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

RECREATION AND HISTORIC PRESERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING

STANDARDS FOR TRAIL CLOSURES ON THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR.

ON THE BILL.

THIS BILL DOES TWO ITEMS. FIRST, IT MAKES IT CLEAR THAT

IF PORTIONS OF THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL ARE CLOSED FOR ANY REASON, THE

OFFICE OF PARKS AND RECREATION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR COMING UP WITH THE

DETOUR. AS YOU ALL KNOW, THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL IS A GREAT, GREAT ASSET.

IT CROSSES BOTH PUBLICALLY-OWNED PROPERTY, AS WELL AS PRIVATELY-OWNED

PROPERTY, AND FROM TIME TO TIME BECAUSE OF A STORM OR WHATEVER, THEY

HAVE TO CLOSE A SECTION OF THE TRAIL. THIS MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IF THEY

CLOSE A SECTION OF TRAIL, INCLUDING A SECTION THAT CROSSES PRIVATE LAND,

NOT THE PRIVATE LANDOWNER, BUT THE STATE OFFICE OF PARKS AND

RECREATION WILL ARRANGE FOR A DETOUR; GREAT CHANGE.

MY CONCERN ON THIS IS IT HAS A SECOND PROVISION, AND

THE SECOND PROVISION SAYS THE OWNER, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE A PRIVATE

OWNER, THE OWNER OF ANY SEGMENT OF THE TRAIL DESIGNATED AS A PORTION OF

THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL SHALL ENSURE THAT SUCH SEGMENT OF TRAIL REMAINS

OPEN WHEN PRACTICAL. WELL, AS IS OFTEN THE CASE WITH OUR TRAIL SYSTEM,

WE OFTEN GET RIGHTS OR EASEMENTS TO CROSS PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND THIS BILL

IMPOSES A STATUTORY OBLIGATION ON THAT PRIVATE OWNER WHO MAY HAVE

GRACIOUSLY ALLOWED US TO USE THEIR LAND FOR THIS TRAIL TO NOW MAINTAIN IT.

AND SO IT'S GREAT WE'RE RELIEVING THE PRIVATE OWNERS OF

AN OBLIGATION TO COME UP WITH A DETOUR, BUT IT'S -- MY CONCERN IS BY

173

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IMPOSING A STATUTORY OBLIGATION ON MAINTENANCE, WE MAY INADVERTENTLY

DISCOURAGE PRIVATE OWNERS FOR MAKING THEIR LAND AVAILABLE FOR A GREAT

ASSET LIKE THE TRAIL. AND SO SOME OF MY MEMBERS WILL WANT TO VOTE YES

BECAUSE WE LIFT THAT BURDEN OF COMING UP WITH A DETOUR, AND OTHERS

MAY WANT TO VOTE NO BECAUSE WE IMPOSE A STATUTORY DUTY ON A PRIVATE

OWNER TO MAINTAIN THE TRAIL. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: MS. FAHY.

MS. FAHY: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL AS

WELL. THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL IS -- HAS BECOME QUITE AN ECONOMIC

ENGINE OF TOURISM HERE IN THIS STATE. IT WAS JUST LAUNCHED IN 2017, YET

IT'S ALL -- IT IS THE LONGEST SINGLE-STATE MULTI-USE TRAIL IN THE NATION, 750

MILES. IT'S NOW UP TO EIGHT MILLION VISITORS PER YEAR, EIGHT MILLION

VISITORS AND GENERATING $274 MILLION IN -- IN ECONOMIC TOURISM ACTIVITY

PER YEAR; IT'S QUITE A SUCCESS.

HOWEVER, WHEN THE TRAIL HAS BEEN CLOSED, AND WE'VE

SEEN A COUPLE OF INCIDENCES OF THAT, WHICH I'LL BE HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT.

ONE WAS AT THE FLOODS -- THE DEVASTATING FLOODS JUST A YEAR-AND-A-HALF

AGO IN DUTCHESS COUNTY, A YEAR-AND-A-HALF AGO HERE WHEN THE DUNN

MEMORIAL BRIDGE WAS OUT, THERE'S A FEW PLACES WHERE WE'VE HAD

CLOSURES WITH ABSOLUTELY NO NOTIFICATION. WE HAVE ONLY SIX, ONLY SIX

PRIVATE ENTITIES THAT OWN PARTS OF THIS TRAIL. ALL WE ARE REQUIRING OF

THOSE PRIVATE ENTITIES IS THAT THEY NOTIFY THE COMMISSIONER OF PARKS,

NOTIFY THE COMMISSIONER. THE COMMISSIONER THEN WILL POST THE DETOUR

SIGNS, BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENED IN A FEW OF THESE INCIDENCES IS THAT

CYCLISTS AND PEDESTRIANS HAVE BEEN LEFT IN THE LURCH, AT TIMES FOR WEEKS

174

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ON END, UNTIL DETOUR SIGNS ARE PUT UP. WHEN THE DUNN MEMORIAL

BRIDGE WAS OUT, IT WAS A FIVE-MILE DETOUR, VERY DIFFICULT IF YOU ARE A

CYCLIST OR A PEDESTRIAN.

SO AGAIN, THE REQUIREMENT IS UPON THE DEPARTMENT OF

PARKS AND RECREATION, THE ONLY REQUIREMENT ON THE PRIVATE LANDOWNERS

WHO, BY THE WAY, VOLUNTARILY GAVE THEIR LAND, OR GAVE AN EASEMENT FOR

THIS EMPIRE STATE TRAIL, BUT IT IS A NOTIFICATION ONE TO HELP WITH

AWARENESS AND TO POST THOSE DETOURS. I'LL JUST QUICKLY NOTE, THE SIX

PRIVATE ENTITIES INCLUDE, NATIONAL GRID - NOT EXACTLY A SMALL, PRIVATE

OWNER - BARD COLLEGE, THE WALLKILL VALLEY LAND TRUST, HONEYWELL

CORPORATION, PARKSIDE ESTATES AND APARTMENT COMPLEX, AND THE TOWN

OF AMHERST VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT. SO THIS IS A GOOD AND A

NEEDED BILL GIVEN WHAT A TREMENDOUS ECONOMIC ENGINE THE EMPIRE

STATE TRAIL HAS BEEN, WHICH IS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO THOSE EIGHT

MILLION VISITORS THAT WE POST SIMPLE DETOUR SIGNS WHEN WE'VE HAD A TREE

FALL, WHEN WE'VE HAD A FLOOD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. AND WITH THAT, MR.

SPEAKER, I DO URGE SUPPORT FOR THIS LEGISLATION. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 180TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

175

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, IF WE COULD

CONTINUE ON OUR DEBATE LIST, ALL OF THESE ARE GOING TO BE RULES BILLS:

255 BY MR. EACHUS; 264 BY MS. CRUZ; 268 BY MR. VANEL; 299 BY MR.

MCDONALD; 324 BY MS. PAULIN; AND 326 BY MR. BORES. IN THAT ORDER,

MR. SPEAKER. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: PAGE 14,

RULES REPORT NO. 255, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08310-C, RULES

REPORT NO. 255, EACHUS, LEE, L. ROSENTHAL, ROZIC, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GENERAL BUSINESS LAW, IN RELATION TO THE SALE OF

BICYCLES WITH ELECTRIC ASSIST AND MICROMOBILITY DEVICES.

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: ON -- ON A

MOTION BY MR. EACHUS, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE

SENATE BILL IS ADVANCED.

EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MR. EACHUS.

MR. EACHUS: THIS BILL REQUIRES RETAILERS TO PROVIDE

WITH THE SALE OF THEIR BICYCLES WITH ELECTRIC ASSIST, E-SCOOTERS AND OTHER

MICROMOBILITY DEVICES A NOTICE TO ATTACH TO EACH COMPELLING PROPER

AND LEGAL OPERATION. I'D LIKE TO MENTION THAT THIS PARTICULAR BILL WILL

ALLOW MR. GOODELL TO SELL HIS E-BIKE WHEN HE'S THROUGH WITH IT, IT IN NO

WAY AFFECTS HIM BECAUSE IT'S ONLY ON RETAILERS.

(LAUGHTER)

176

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: THANK YOU FOR

THE EXPLANATION.

MR. SLATER.

MR. SLATER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN: MR. EACHUS,

WILL YOU YIELD?

MR. EACHUS: CERTAINLY.

MR. SLATER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR. SO CAN

YOU EXPLAIN TO US BASED ON YOUR BILL AND YOUR EXPLANATION, WHAT IS THE

PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO RECTIFY HERE?

MR. EACHUS: THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE TRYING TO

RECTIFY HERE IS ACTUALLY KIND OF AN EDUCATIONAL AND SAFETY PROBLEM. WE

ARE HAVING MORE AND MORE E-BIKES, E-SCOOTERS, THOSE TYPES OF

MICROMOBILITY VEHICLES ALL THROUGHOUT THE STATE, AND THE FOLKS ARE NOT

AWARE OF WHERE THEY CAN ACTUALLY DRIVE THEM OR RIDE THEM, SO THEY

MUST BECOME AWARE OF WHAT THE LOCAL LAWS ARE.

MR. SLATER: AND HOW DOES THIS STICKER, THE NOTICE

THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING, HOW DOES THAT EDUCATE THEM ON WHERE THEY'RE

ABLE TO RIDE THESE MODES OF TRANSPORTATION?

MR. EACHUS: THE -- IT'S ACTUALLY DEFINED THAT THE

NOTICE WILL SAY ALWAYS YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS AND FOLLOW TRAFFIC LAWS.

RIDING ON THE SIDEWALK MAY BE ILLEGAL; CONSULT YOUR LOCAL LAWS.

MR. SLATER: AND DOES IT DIRECT THEM WHERE THEY

CAN CONSULT THEIR LOCAL LAWS?

177

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. EACHUS: IT DOES NOT.

MR. SLATER: AND SO IF YOU'RE RIDING FROM ONE

MUNICIPALITY TO ANOTHER AND THE LOCAL LAWS CHANGE, HOW IS THE MOTORIST

EXPECTED TO KNOW THAT?

MR. EACHUS: WELL, I THINK IT'S LIKE ANY MOBILITY

DEVICE, YOU SHOULD KNOW, YOU KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, IF I COULD USE LIKE,

SKATEBOARDS. IN SOME MUNICIPALITIES, SKATEBOARDS ARE ALLOWED, THEY'RE

ALLOWED ON SIDEWALKS. IN OTHERS, THEY'RE NOT. WE ARE GIVING CREDIT TO

THESE FOLKS THAT ARE USING THESE DEVICES, THESE VEHICLES, THE THOUGHT

THAT THEY CAN FIND OUT WHAT THE LAWS ARE IF THEY ARE CROSSING OVER

BORDERS.

MR. SLATER: I UNDERSTAND. AND ARE LIMITED-USE

MOTORCYCLES INCLUDED IN THIS LEGISLATION?

MR. EACHUS: NO, THEY ARE NOT.

MR. SLATER: JUST GIVE ME ONE SECOND HERE, I

THOUGHT I SAW THAT THEY WERE INCLUDED.

(PAUSE)

MR. EACHUS: FOR INSTANCE -- FOR INSTANCE, MOPEDS

ARE LIMITED-USE MOTORCYCLE AND THEY ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THIS BILL.

(PAUSE)

MR. SLATER: I UNDERSTAND; I SEE THAT AS WELL.

THANK YOU FOR THE CLARIFICATION, I APPRECIATE THAT. ARE THERE CURRENTLY

ANY OTHER NOTICES THAT ARE REQUIRED ON THESE E-BIKES AND SCOOTERS?

MR. EACHUS: NOT THAT I'M CURRENTLY AWARE OF AT

THIS TIME --

178

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. SLATER: AND DOES IT --

MR. EACHUS: -- DEALING WITH TRAFFIC LAWS OR

PEDESTRIAN.

MR. SLATER: OR DOES ANYPLACE ELSE ON THE E-BIKE

OR SCOOTER, IS THERE ANYPLACE ELSE THAT WE CURRENTLY REQUIRE ANY TYPE OF

NOTIFICATION, STICKER OR LABEL TO BE PLACED?

MR. EACHUS: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

MR. SLATER: OKAY. SO THIS WILL BE THE FIRST?

MR. EACHUS: YES.

MR. SLATER: AND WE -- YOU MENTIONED RESALE. SO

TALK TO ME QUICKLY IF YOU CAN ABOUT WHAT IF ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUES

WANTS TO RESELL THEIR E-BIKES, ARE THEY REQUIRED TO HAVE THAT STICKER

ALREADY ON IT, OR WHERE DOES THAT RESPONSIBILITY FALL?

MR. EACHUS: NO, IT STRICTLY LIES WITH RETAILERS.

AND THE PENALTIES LIE AGAINST THE RETAILER, SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE

STOCK IN THE RETAILER STORE.

MR. SLATER: AND IS THE RETAILER EXPECTED TO

PRODUCE THAT STICKER?

MR. EACHUS: AT THIS POINT, WE GIVE THAT TO -- THAT

RESPONSIBILITY TO - JUST A MOMENT - DEPARTMENT OF STATE.

MR. SLATER: SO THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE IS GOING

TO BE THE AGENCY THAT PRODUCES THE STICKER, AND IT'S THE RETAILER'S

RESPONSIBILITY TO OBTAIN THAT STICKER FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE?

MR. EACHUS: I WOULDN'T SAY THAT THE DEPARTMENT

OF STATE IS GOING TO PRODUCE THAT STICKER, THEY'RE GOING TO SOMEHOW

179

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ENFORCE THAT THAT STICKER IS PRODUCED.

MR. SLATER: AND IT'S UP TO THE RETAILER TO OBTAIN,

OR TO PRODUCE THAT STICKER?

MR. EACHUS: YES.

MR. SLATER: I UNDERSTAND. AND WHAT ABOUT FOR THE

MOTORISTS THEMSELVES? IF THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE RIDING A SCOOTER OR E-BIKE

THAT DOES NOT HAVE THAT STICKER, WHAT IS THE ENFORCEMENT AGENCY IN -- IN

THAT TYPE OF SCENARIO?

MR. EACHUS: THERE IS NONE.

MR. SLATER: THERE IS NONE. SO THERE'S NO

REQUIREMENT THEN FOR THE MOTORIST TO HAVE IT ON THEIR BIKE OR THEIR

SCOOTER, ONLY IF THEY'RE BUYING A NEW BIKE OR SCOOTER FROM A RETAILER,

FOR THE RETAILER TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS A NOTICE ON THAT BIKE OR

SCOOTER.

MR. EACHUS: THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. SLATER: OKAY, ALL RIGHT. WELL, THANK YOU VERY

MUCH TO THE SPONSOR, I APPRECIATE THE ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS.

MR. EACHUS: YOU'RE WELCOME; THANK YOU.

MR. SLATER: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. DURSO.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR A COUPLE QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. EACHUS, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. EACHUS: CERTAINLY.

180

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MR. EACHUS. SO JUST TO

PICK UP ON WHAT MY COLLEAGUE WAS TALKING ABOUT, YOU SAID THE RETAILER

WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THE STICKER?

MR. EACHUS: FOR PUTTING THE STICKER ON THE

VEHICLE.

MR. DURSO: SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO -- SO IF I WAS

GOING TO ANY BIG BOX STORE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT THAT IS SELLING THESE

ELECTRIC BIKES, SCOOTERS, WHATEVER IT IS THAT FALLS WITHIN THIS LEGISLATION,

THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR ACTUALLY PLACING THE STICKER ON THAT VEHICLE?

MR. EACHUS: WELL, THEY'RE -- THEY MAY ALREADY

HAVE THE STICKERS ON SOME OF THOSE VEHICLES, BUT IF THEY'RE NOT ON THERE

THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES.

MR. DURSO: OKAY, SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THEY MAY

ALREADY HAVE THEM ON THERE, IS THAT THEN DONE BY THE PRODUCER OF THAT

VEHICLE --

MR. EACHUS: IT COULD BE.

MR. DURSO: -- PRIOR TO BEING SHIPPED TO A STORE?

MR. EACHUS: IT COULD WELL BE, YES.

MR. DURSO: HOW WOULD THEY KNOW WHAT EACH

INDIVIDUAL MUNICIPALITY WITHIN, LET'S SAY, LONG ISLAND, WHICH HAS MANY

DIFFERENT TOWNS AND VILLAGES, EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE KNOW IF THEY'RE

ALLOWED TO USE OR NOT TO USE IT IN THOSE AREAS?

MR. EACHUS: WELL AGAIN, I CAN REREAD THE NOTICE,

BUT IT SAYS SIMPLY AT THE END OF IT, CONSULT LOCAL LAWS.

181

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. DURSO: WELL, NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT, AND I DON'T

WANT TO USE NAMES OF COMPANIES, BUT LET'S SAY THERE'S COMPANY X THAT

BUILDS THESE E-BIKES OR SCOOTERS. THEY'RE SHIPPING THEM TO BIGGER BOX

STORES THAT ARE IN THE AREAS, BUT THERE'S MULTIPLE MUNICIPALITIES THAT FALL

WITHIN, LIKE I'M JUST USING LONG ISLAND BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE I'M FROM,

FOR EXAMPLE.

MR. EACHUS: I LOVE LONG ISLAND.

MR. DURSO: I KNOW YOU DO, YOU'RE FROM THERE

ORIGINALLY. SO HOW WOULD THEY KNOW WHERE SOMEONE WOULD BE RIDING

THAT BIKE? THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING -- IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A VERY -- IT'S A --

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A BAD IDEA, I'M JUST SAYING HOW ARE THEY GOING TO

KNOW PUT THE PROPER STICKER ON THAT E-BIKE PRIOR TO THE SALE?

MR. EACHUS: IF IT'S A RETAILER HERE IN NEW YORK

STATE, THAT RETAILER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVING THAT STICKER ON THAT VEHICLE.

MR. DURSO: EVEN IF THEY'RE BASED OUT OF NEW YORK

STATE -- IF THEY'RE NOT BASED IN NEW YORK STATE? SO IF IT'S A BIG BOX

STORE COMPANY THAT'S BASED OUT OF COLORADO BUT THEY HAVE STORES HERE.

MR. EACHUS: YES.

MR. DURSO: THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING WHAT

NEW YORK STATE LAWS ARE AND HAVING THOSE STICKERS PROVIDED TO THOSE

STORES THAT FALL WITHIN NEW YORK STATE?

MR. EACHUS: WELL, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THAT

PARTICULAR CASE IS IF A BIG BOX STORE IS GOING TO SELL THEM HERE IN NEW

YORK STATE, THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING THAT THAT STICKER NEEDS TO

BE ON THAT VEHICLE.

182

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. DURSO: OKAY. AND NOW -- AND WHO'D YOU SAY

WOULD BE ENFORCING THOSE -- THE LAW SAYING THAT IT HAS TO HAVE A STICKER

ON IT?

MR. EACHUS: THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE. THEY'RE

GOING TO COME UP WITH THE STICKERS, AND THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO BE

RESPONSIBLE FOR ENFORCING.

MR. DURSO: SO IN OTHER WORDS, I LIVE IN THE VILLAGE

OF MASSAPEQUA PARK. IF THEY HAVE AN ORDINANCE SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT

RIDE THOSE ON THE SIDEWALK, IT'S UP TO THE VILLAGE, RIGHT, TO ENFORCE THAT?

MR. EACHUS: YES, THAT -- THAT WOULD -- NOW YOU'RE

GOING INTO WHAT THE ACTUAL LAWS ARE FOR A PARTICULAR MUNICIPALITY; THAT'S

CORRECT.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. SO -- BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT ALL

E-BIKES, RIGHT, OR SOMEONE -- IF I ALREADY HAVE ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO

HAVE THE STICKER ON IT, CORRECT?

MR. EACHUS: CORRECT.

MR. DURSO: WHO IS TO KNOW WHEN I BOUGHT THAT

E-BIKE?

MR. EACHUS: WELL, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT CHECKING

E-BIKES OR E-SCOOTERS OUT ON THE ROAD, WE'RE NOT REQUESTING THAT ANY

AUTHORITY OR JURISDICTION STOP THEM OUT ON THE ROAD UNLESS THEY ARE

BREAKING THAT MUNICIPALITY'S LAWS. WE ARE SIMPLY SAYING THAT IF THIS IS

BEING SOLD IN EVEN A STORE OF ANY TYPE, IF AN AUTHORITY WALKED INTO THAT

STORE, IT SHOULD HAVE A STICKER ON THAT BIKE.

MR. DURSO: SO THIS -- THIS BILL IS REALLY FOR THE

183

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

STORE.

MR. EACHUS: THE RETAILER.

MR. DURSO: NOT FOR THE PURCHASER, ESSENTIALLY, OR

THE PERSON RIDING IT, IT'S REALLY MORE FOR THE STORE THAT HAVE TO PROVIDE

THE STICKER, CORRECT?

MR. EACHUS: TO PROVIDE, YES, BUT -- BUT IT IS FOR

THE ACTUAL RIDER BECAUSE IT'S -- AS I MENTIONED WHEN I STARTED OFF IT'S

EDUCATIONAL. IT IS INFORMING THE PURCHASER THAT PEDESTRIANS HAVE THE

RIGHT OF WAY. IT'S INFORMING THAT IN MANY PLACES YOU CANNOT RIDE ON THE

SIDEWALKS, AND IT'S INFORMING THERE ARE OTHER LOCAL LAWS FOR EACH

MUNICIPALITY THAT YOU SHOULD BE AWARE OF IF YOU'RE RIDING THIS E-BIKE IN

THAT MUNICIPALITY.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. SO -- AND AGAIN, I DON'T MEAN

TO REPEAT MYSELF, SO I APOLOGIZE.

MR. EACHUS: THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

MR. DURSO: I'M JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE

MECHANISM IS IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY KNOW WHERE THAT E-BIKE

OR SCOOTER IS GOING TO BE DRIVEN, WHETHER -- WHETHER OR NOT IT'S

PURCHASED AT THE PROPER PLACE, IF I BOUGHT IT OUT-OF-STATE, NOT BOUGHT IT

OUT-OF-STATE, IF I BOUGHT IT IN A DIFFERENT COUNTY, TOWN, VILLAGE, IF THEY'RE

GOING TO HAVE THE PROPER STICKER OR LAW IN PLACE, OR UNDERSTANDING OF

THE LAW, THE EDUCATION CORRECTLY DONE FOR THAT PURCHASER OF THAT E-BIKE

OR SCOOTER, IF THEY DON'T KNOW WHICH MUNICIPALITY HAS WHICH LAWS.

MR. EACHUS: WELL, WE LEAVE THAT UP TO THE

PURCHASER. I MEAN, IT'S LEFT UP TO THE PURCHASER RIGHT NOW EVEN IF YOU

184

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DON'T HAVE THE STICKER ON YOUR PARTICULAR E-BIKE OR E-SCOOTER, WHATEVER

IT MIGHT BE, THAT YOU STILL SHOULD BE ABIDING BY THE LAWS FOR THAT

MUNICIPALITY IF YOU'RE RIDING THAT IN THAT MUNICIPALITY.

MR. DURSO: AGREED, OKAY. THANK YOU, SIR. I

APPRECIATE YOUR ANSWERS.

MR. EACHUS: YOU'RE WELCOME, THANK YOU.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WALSH.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. WALSH: SO I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS JUST TURNING

INTO A KIND OF A SLEEP DEPRIVED AIRING OF GRIEVANCES TODAY, BUT I'M

GOING TO LET YOU ALL IN ON A LITTLE PET PEEVE OF MINE. WHEN I AM GETTING

READY IN THE MORNING TO GO TO WORK, I OFTEN HAVE THE NEWS ON, AND THE

WEATHER PEOPLE NOW LATELY HAVE BEEN SAYING -- THEY TELL ME WHETHER I

CAN WASH MY CAR ON A PARTICULAR DAY, THEY TELL ME WHAT KIND OF COAT I

SHOULD BE WEARING ON A PARTICULAR DAY, IF I SHOULD BE WEARING A HEAVY

COAT, IF I SHOULD BE WEARING -- THEY TELL ME IF I SHOULD BE CARRYING AN

UMBRELLA ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. AND I FIND THAT VERY IRRITATING BECAUSE

I HAVE ENOUGH INTELLIGENCE TO STICK MY HEAD OUT THE WINDOW AND FIGURE

OUT HOW TO DRESS MYSELF, WHAT -- WHETHER I NEED AN UMBRELLA OR NOT,

AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST BOTHERS ME. AND I BELIEVE THAT THIS BILL IS

VERY WELL-INTENTIONED. LET ME JUST READ TO YOU, THOUGH, WHAT THE

NOTICE ACTUALLY SAYS: NOTICE - ALWAYS YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS AND FOLLOW

185

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TRAFFIC LAWS. RIDING ON THE SIDEWALK MAY BE ILLEGAL; CONSULT LOCAL

LAWS. THAT'S WHAT THE STICKER SAYS. I MEAN, I FEEL LIKE INSTEAD OF THE

DEPARTMENT OF STATE, IT OUGHT TO BE THE DEPARTMENT OF THE OBVIOUS. I

MEAN, REALLY. I JUST -- I -- I APPRECIATE THE DESIRE TO KEEP EVERYBODY

SAFE ON THE ROADS BUT, YOU KNOW, I WOULD -- I WOULD REALLY HOPE THAT

JUST, YOU KNOW, WE HAD CAMPAIGNS BEFORE THAT ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO

WEAR SEAT BELTS, OR TO, YOU KNOW, CLICK IT OR TICKET, OR -- EVERYTHING'S

GOT TO RHYME, TOO, THAT BOTHERS ME, AS WELL --

(LAUGHTER)

-- BUT -- OR YOU HAVE TO WEAR A HELMET, YOU KNOW,

WHICH YOU DO, YOU REALLY SHOULD, BUT I MEAN DO WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE

A LAW THAT MANDATES A STICKER THAT DOESN'T REALLY GIVE YOU ANY

INFORMATION THAT YOU AS A WALKING, BREATHING, FUNCTIONING HUMAN BEING

SHOULDN'T ALREADY KNOW? THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: I'M AFRAID TO TELL YOU

YOU'RE WELCOME.

MR. EACHUS.

MR. EACHUS: ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. EACHUS: INTERESTING COMMENTS FROM MY

COLLEAGUES, AND I APPRECIATE ALL THE QUESTIONS AND STATEMENTS. I JUST

MADE MENTION JUST A SHORT WHILE AGO THAT I WAS IN THE MINORITY BECAUSE

I AM NOT A LAWYER. I AM A TEACHER, AND I TAUGHT FOR 40 YEARS AS MANY OF

YOU ALREADY KNOW, AND I TAUGHT HIGH SCHOOLERS. I WOULD LOVE TO THINK

THAT WHAT MY COLLEAGUE MENTIONED, ABOUT I THINK I CAN CALL IT COMMON

186

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SENSE, REALLY APPLIED, BUT HAVING DEALT WITH THESE TEENAGERS AND MIDDLE

SCHOOLERS FOR 40 YEARS, UNFORTUNATELY I CAN'T ALWAYS SAY THAT COMMON

SENSE IS THERE. AND, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THIS. WE CAN WALK RIGHT

OUTSIDE OF THIS BUILDING AND WE CAN SEE SOME SIGNS THAT SAY "NO

SKATEBOARDING." ONE WOULD THINK THAT, AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT'S

COMMON SENSE ON A SIDEWALK WOULD OCCUR TO AN INDIVIDUAL. BUT

UNFORTUNATELY WE TAKE EVERY PRECAUTION WE CAN IN HERE TO PROTECT ALL OF

OUR CITIZENS HERE IN NEW YORK STATE, AND THAT'S STRICTLY WHAT THIS IS, IT'S

A SAFETY THING AND AN EDUCATIONAL THING FOR BOTH OUR CONSTITUENTS AND

THOSE WHO MIGHT BE ON SIDEWALK OR WHEREVER AND ALSO THOSE WHO ARE

PURCHASING IT.

SO ONCE AGAIN, I THANK EVERYBODY FOR THEIR COMMENTS

AND I HOPE YOU WILL SUPPORT THIS BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 180TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. FLOOD TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. FLOOD: THANK YOU. AND I DO APPRECIATE THE

SPONSOR'S COMMENTS. BUT AS HE WAS SPEAKING, IT JUST REMINDS ME, WHAT

HAPPENED TO PARENTS JUST DOING THEIR JOB? WHEN DID WE LOSE ALL

COMMON SENSE WHERE PARENTS CAN JUST LOOK AT YOUR CHILD AND SAY

WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU? LIKE, WHY IS IT ON BUSINESSES TO HAVE TO

187

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PUT, YOU KNOW, WARNINGS ABOUT EVERY LITTLE THING, LIKE HEY, DON'T DRIVE

THIS MOTORIZED SCOOTER IN A PACKED SIDEWALK. I HAVE AN UNCLE, AND I

STILL HAVE HIM, YOU KNOW, BUT HE INSTILLED IN US EARLY IN LIFE CERTAIN

VALUES, AND HE USED TO HAVE A SAYING, STUPID'S FOR LIFE. MAYBE INSTEAD

OF, YOU KNOW, FINING RETAILERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T PUT A STICKER ON,

THEY'RE GOING TO JACK UP THE FINES ON THE GUY THAT'S ACTUALLY DRIVING

THROUGH THE STREET OR THROUGH THE CROWDED SIDEWALK SO THAT MAYBE HE

WON'T DO IT AGAIN, AND PLACE THE BLAME ON THE APPROPRIATE PARTY. I --

HONESTLY, I THINK THIS STATE WE JUST, ONE LITTLE THING AFTER LITTLE THING

SUCK MONEY OUT OF EMPLOYEES, OUT OF BUSINESSES AND PUT THE BLAME

ON -- ON PARTIES THAT JUST DON'T DESERVE IT. WHY NOT HOLD THE PERSON

THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACCIDENT RESPONSIBLE? I VOTE NEGATIVE. I

WOULD ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. FLOOD IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. I VERY MUCH

APPRECIATE THAT MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES ARE NOT ATTORNEYS AND THEY BRING

A WEALTH OF PERSPECTIVE AND EXPERIENCE AND COMMON SENSE TO THE

CHAMBER, INCLUDING THE BILL SPONSOR, AND SO I THANK YOU. AND BEFORE

WE LET THE ATTORNEYS OFF, WE MAY RECALL THE REASON WHY YOUR

MCDONALD'S CUP SAYS, WARNING, ON YOUR COFFEE, WARNING, THE CONTENTS

MAY BE HOT IS BECAUSE SOME LAWYERS GOT INVOLVED AND SUED

MCDONALD'S WHEN APPARENTLY THEIR CLIENT, WHO ORDERED HOT COFFEE,

DIDN'T REALIZE IT WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE HOT. AND SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT

188

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PRODUCTS AND YOU SEE ALL THESE WARNINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, ON A RECTAL

THERMOMETER, DO NOT USE ORALLY, OR ON DISHWASHERS, DON'T LET YOUR

CHILDREN PLAY INSIDE THEM, OR IRONS THAT SAY DON'T IRON WHILE WEARING

YOUR CLOTHES, OR FOOD PROCESSORS THAT SAY DON'T REMOVE THE FOOD WHILE

THE PROCESSOR IS OPERATING, OR EVEN SCOOTERS THAT SAY THIS PRODUCT

MOVES WHEN BEING USED. YOU CAN THANK LAWYERS FOR HELPING ALL OF US

UNDERSTAND THOSE CONCEPTS SO THAT WE DON'T FIND OURSELVES IN AN

EMBARRASSING SITUATION OF ACTUALLY LIKE CUTTING OURSELVES WITH A POWER

TOOL, OR ELECTROCUTING OURSELVES WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO DRY THE HAIR WHILE

STILL TAKING A SHOWER. I'M VOTING NO JUST BECAUSE I THINK MY

CONSTITUENTS DON'T KNOW THE LAW AND SO WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH

A STICKER THAT SAID FOLLOW THE LAW. THAT'S TO SAY THAT MY CONSTITUENTS

ARE VERY THOUGHTFUL AND ALWAYS LAW-ABIDING. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 16, RULES REPORT NO. 264, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09122, RULES REPORT

NO. 264, CRUZ, DE LOS SANTOS, SIMONE, KELLES, SIMON, RAGA, TAYLOR,

SEAWRIGHT, LEVENBERG, OTIS, WALKER, DAVILLA, GLICK, ZACCARO,

ZINERMAN, L. ROSENTHAL, K. BROWN. AN ACT TO AMEND THE CRIMINAL

PROCEDURE LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING ACCURATE INTERPRETATION OF

STATEMENTS MADE BY DEPONENTS WITH LIMITED ENGLISH PROFICIENCY IN

189

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENTS AND SUPPORTING DEPOSITIONS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON A MOTION BY MS.

CRUZ, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS ADVANCED.

MS. CRUZ, AN EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. NEW YORK IS

A LINGUISTICALLY DIVERSE STATE AND SOME NEW YORKERS ARE NOT FULLY

PROFICIENT IN ENGLISH. IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE CONTEXT, THIS BECOMES AN

ISSUE WHEN A NEW YORKER WHO IS NOT FULLY PROFICIENT IN ENGLISH SEEKS

TO REPORT A CRIME. HOW CAN A PERSON WHO IS NOT PROFICIENT IN ENGLISH

RELATE FACTS OF AN EVIDENTIARY CHARACTER TO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS IF

HE, SHE, OR THEY CANNOT SPEAK OR WRITE ENGLISH. THE SOLUTION IS RATHER

SIMPLE, TO REQUIRE THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS USE QUALIFIED

TRANSLATORS WHO CAN TRANSLATE THE DEPONENT'S ACCUSATIONS INTO ENGLISH,

AND THEN REQUIRE THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS SUBMIT AFFIDAVITS AFFIRMING

WHAT THEY DID, AS WELL AS THEIR QUALIFICATIONS. THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION

WOULD ENSURE THAT DEPONENTS HAVE THEIR ALLEGATIONS ACCURATELY

TRANSLATED BY SOMEONE WHO IS QUALIFIED TO TRANSLATE THEM, WHILE ALSO

PUTTING DEFENDANTS ON SUFFICIENT NOTICE OF THE FACTS GIVEN RIGHTS TO THE

FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS LEVIED AGAINST THEM.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MORINELLO.

MR. MORINELLO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS?

MS. CRUZ: OF COURSE, JUDGE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. CRUZ YIELDS.

MR. MORINELLO: THANK YOU. SO WHAT THIS IS,

190

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WHEN IT STARTS OUT, WE HAVE AN ALLEGED INCIDENT; WOULD I NOT -- WOULD I

BE CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: I'M SORRY, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?

MR. MORINELLO: THE INITIAL PROCESS WOULD BE AN

ALLEGED INCIDENT THAT SOMEONE --

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. MORINELLO: -- THAT SOMEONE WANTS TO REPORT.

SO WE HAVE TWO -- TWO INDIVIDUALS. WE HAVE ONE THAT IS

ENGLISH-SPEAKING, AND WE'LL TAKE ANOTHER SCENARIO THAT IS NON-ENGLISH

SPEAKING. SO A NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING COMPLAINANT WOULD GO TO THE

POLICE, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MORINELLO: AND THEY WOULD EITHER HAVE A

BILINGUAL OR A FRIEND COME TO EXPLAIN IF THEY WERE NON-SPEAKING --

NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING UNDER THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

MS. CRUZ: WELL, YES AND NO; IT DEPENDS ON WHICH

PART OF THE STATE. THEY COULD SOMETIMES END UP COMING WITH SOMEONE

TO THE POLICE STATION. SOMETIMES THAT HAPPENS, AND SOMETIMES YOU

HAVE A POLICE STATION THAT DON'T HAVE AN INTERPRETER OR ACCESS TO ONE,

THAT'S GENERALLY WHERE YOU WOULD SEE THE EXAMPLE YOU'RE PROVIDING.

BUT THEN IN OTHER INSTANCES, AS IS COMMON OFTEN IN NEW YORK CITY OR

OTHER POLICE STATIONS WHERE YOU HAVE AGENCIES THAT HAVE A CONTRACT

WITH OGS, THERE WOULD BE AN INTERPRETER OFTEN BY PHONE.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. BUT BASICALLY, THAT

STATEMENT BEGINS A LEGAL PROCESS; AM I NOT CORRECT?

191

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. CRUZ: IT CAN, BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS.

MR. MORINELLO: WELL, IF THERE'S A COMPLAINT, IT'S

GOT TO GO THROUGH A LEGAL PROCESS.

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MORINELLO: SO GIVE ME AN INSTANCE WHERE A

COMPLAINT FROM A COMPLAINANT WOULD NOT PROCEED TO A CRIMINAL

PROCESS.

MS. CRUZ: WELL, THEY CAN GO TO THE POLICE AND THE

POLICE MIGHT SAY WHAT YOU'RE ALLEGING IS NOT A CRIME.

MR. MORINELLO: I'M SORRY?

MS. CRUZ: THEY MIGHT GO TO THE POLICE, THAT

SOMETIMES HAPPENS, MAKE AN ALLEGATION, AND THE POLICE MIGHT SAY THIS

IS NOT A CRIME.

MR. MORINELLO: WELL, BUT THEY WOULD MAKE --

BUT SHOULD THERE BE, THE NEXT PHASE WOULD BE TO ISSUE AN INFORMATION,

OR AN ACCUSATORY INCIDENT--

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S RIGHT.

MR. MORINELLO: -- CORRECT? THAT ACCUSATORY

INSTRUMENT WOULD BE AGAINST A ALLEGED DEFENDANT, OR AN ALLEGED

PERPETRATOR, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: SO FAR, YES.

MR. MORINELLO: SO AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT,

DEPENDING ON WHETHER IT'S A FELONY OR A MIS -- NO, BEFORE THAT THERE

WOULD BE AN ARRAIGNMENT, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: WELL, THAT WOULD DEPEND IF --

192

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. MORINELLO: NO, THERE'S ALWAYS --

MS. CRUZ: -- IN THE PARTICULAR --

MR. MORINELLO: -- WHETHER, WHETHER --

MS. CRUZ: ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, YES.

MR. MORINELLO: WHETHER THERE'S -- IT'S A FELONY

OR MISDEMEANOR, THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE AN ARRAIGNMENT, CORRECT? AT

THAT ARRAIGNMENT, LET'S TAKE A SCENARIO WHERE YOU HAVE A NON-SPEAKING

DEFENDANT, OKAY, WITH AN ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT. AT THAT POINT, THE

COURT AND OCA PROVIDES AN INTERPRETER, WHICH IS CERTIFIED, EITHER BY

TELEPHONIC OR IN PERSON, DEPENDING ON THE LOCATION; WOULD THAT NOT BE

CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. AND LET'S TAKE THE OTHER

SCENARIO WHERE YOU HAVE A NON-SPEAKING COMPLAINANT AND AN

ENGLISH-SPEAKING DEFENDANT, EITHER WAY THAT DEFENDANT IS GOING TO BE

ARRAIGNED, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. MORINELLO: AND AT THAT ARRAIGNMENT, THAT

INFORMATION WHICH IS FORMING THE BASIS OF THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT

WOULD EITHER BE TRANSLATED BY AN OCA COURT CERTIFIED TRANSLATOR,

CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: HOLD ONE SEC.

(PAUSE)

MR. MORINELLO: WELL, MS. CRUZ, AS A SITTING

JUDGE, I HAD TO CALL OCA MANY TIMES.

193

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. CRUZ: I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT YOU ASKED ME A

QUESTION, JUDGE, SO --

MR. MORINELLO: I REALIZE THAT, BUT WHAT I WAS

GOING TO TELL YOU IS I KNOW THE ANSWER BECAUSE I'VE HAD TO DO IT.

MS. CRUZ: THEN WHY ASK ME, JUDGE? YOU HAVE TO

GIVE ME THE OPPORTUNITY. IT'S NOT FAIR. IF YOU ASK ME A QUESTION, WE

WANT TO PUT IT ON THE RECORD, THEN ALLOW ME TO ANSWER IT.

MR. MORINELLO: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU. I WAS JUST

TRYING TO ASSIST YOU BECAUSE I'VE EXPERIENCED IT AND I WAS TRYING TO BE

HELPFUL. I'M SORRY, OKAY?

MS. CRUZ: GREAT.

MR. MORINELLO: I APOLOGIZE FOR KNOWING THE

ANSWER. SO ONCE THE ARRAIGNMENT IS COMPLETE, OKAY --

MS. CRUZ: CAN I ASK -- CAN I ASK FOR A FAVOR, JUDGE?

IF WE -- WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER WHEN WE'RE

DEBATING.

MR. MORINELLO: RIGHT.

MS. CRUZ: THE ANSWER THAT YOU GAVE ME, IT'S

COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY BECAUSE IF WE'RE GOING TO PUT SOMETHING ON

THE RECORD, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION, THERE'S NO NEED FOR THE

SNARK, THERE'S NO NEED TO BE DISRESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER. I'M NOTHING

BUT RESPECTFUL TO YOU AND I APPRECIATE IF WE CAN JUST STICK TO THE FACTS

AND TO THE LAW.

MR. MORINELLO: WELL, I STAND CORRECTED. I JUST

SEEN YOU NEED -- YOU NEEDED TO INQUIRE OF SOMEBODY NEXT TO YOU, SO I

194

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WAS JUST TRYING TO BE THAT PERSON AND ASSIST YOU.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU, JUDGE.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY, THAT'S THE ONLY REASON,

BECAUSE I'VE HAD TO DO IT. SO ONCE THAT HAPPENS, ONCE THE ARRAIGNMENT

-- WELL -- IS COMPLETE, AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT DEPENDING ON WHETHER --

IF IT'S A MISDEMEANOR IT COULD EITHER GO TO PLEA OR TRIAL, BUT AT EVERY

STAGE THE STATE WILL PROVIDE THROUGH OCA A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER; AM I

NOT CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: NOT -- AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW, NOT AT

EVERY STAGE, AND OFTEN THE INITIAL STAGE WHERE THE COMPLAINANT IS

PROVIDING FACTS TO THE POLICE ABOUT THE INCIDENT CAN OFTEN BE -- IT'S

OFTEN VERY IMPORTANT AND THAT'S AT THE POINT WHERE RIGHT NOW WE DON'T --

WE DON'T REQUIRE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER TO ACTUALLY INTERPRET THE FACTS

THAT THEN GO INTO THE INFORMATION -- THE CERTIFIED INTERPRETER GENERALLY

COMES IN ONCE YOU'RE IN COURT.

MR. MORINELLO: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING

ABOUT.

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MORINELLO: WHEN WE PROCEEDED TO THAT

POINT. SO FROM THE POINT OF THE ARREST, THROUGH THE REST OF THE PROCESS,

OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION MANDATES THAT THERE BE -- AND THEY

CERTIFY THE INTERPRETERS; AM I NOT CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MORINELLO: SO AT THE POINT OF THE

ARRAIGNMENT FORWARD, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER,

195

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: BY -- FROM THE ARRAIGNMENT ON, YES.

MR. MORINELLO: FROM THE ARRAIGNMENT ON.

MS. CRUZ: MM-HMM.

MR. MORINELLO: SO FROM THAT POINT, IF IT'S A

MISDEMEANOR IT WILL STAY IN THE LOCAL COURT, AND DEPENDING ON WHETHER

THE DEFENDANT OR THE COMPLAINANT IS NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING, BECAUSE OF

THE RULES OF OCA THERE WILL BE AN INTERPRETER CERTIFIED; AM I NOT

CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. IF IT'S A FELONY AND THEY

WAIVE THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, OR IF THERE'S A PRELIMINARY HEARING,

DEPENDING ON THE LANGUAGE BARRIER.

MS. CRUZ: AT THAT POINT, IT DOESN'T -- AT ANY POINT

ONCE THEY'RE IN THE COURT PROCESS, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, THERE'S ALWAYS AN

INTERPRETER IF -- ESPECIALLY IF THE DEFENDANT DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH.

MR. MORINELLO: ALL RIGHT. SO I'M A LITTLE

CONFUSED AS TO WHAT THE NECESSITY AT THE INITIAL COMPLAINT STAGE IS TO

HAVE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER IF THROUGHOUT THE LEGAL PROCESS BOTH THE

COMPLAINANT IS PROTECTED, AND THE DEFENDANT IS PROTECTED.

MS. CRUZ: WELL, ARGUABLY WE WOULD SAY THAT IN A

STATE LIKE OURS WHERE THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE ENGLISH AS

THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE AND THAT EVEN IF THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IT MIGHT NOT

BE PROFICIENT, THAT IN ORDER TO EVEN GET TO THE PROCESS OF BEING IN COURT,

ALL OF THE FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SAID BEFORE THAT ARE EXTREMELY

196

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IMPORTANT FOR THE ACCURACY OF ACTUALLY DEFENDING THE RIGHT OF THE

ACCUSED, BUT DEFINITELY PROTECTING THE PERSON WHO IS MAKING THE

ACCUSATION AS THE SUPPOSED VICTIM.

MR. MORINELLO: ALL RIGHT. SO LET'S TAKE THE

VICTIM, OKAY, AND THIS IS -- YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT -- YOUR FOCUS IS ON THE

FACT THAT THAT PARTICULAR VICTIM'S STATEMENT HAS TO BE ACCURATE; AM I NOT

CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: I'M WORRIED ABOUT BOTH INDIVIDUALS,

WHOEVER IT IS THAT IS NOT AN ENGLISH-SPEAKING PARTICIPANT, FOR LACK OF A

BETTER WORD, WHETHER IT'S A DEFENDANT OR THE VICTIM. I WANT TO MAKE

SURE THAT WHATEVER INFORMATION IS BEING GATHERED AND PUT INTO THE

INFORMATION, WHICH IS I BELIEVE THE NAME OF THE DOCUMENT, THE INITIAL

DOCUMENT, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S ACCURATE. IT SAVES THE STATE

MONEY, BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT ACCURATE BY THE TIME WE GET TO COURT, IT COULD

BE OVERTURNED. SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE AS ACCURATE AS

POSSIBLE THROUGH THE ENTIRE PROCESS.

MR. MORINELLO: SO WOULD IT BE A FAIR STATEMENT

TO SAY THAT A VICTIM NEEDS TO HAVE JUSTICE AS QUICKLY AS THEY CAN AND AS

PROPER AS THEY CAN?

MS. CRUZ: I THINK THAT'S A STATEMENT WE COULD ALL

AGREE WITH, YES.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. WELL, DO -- IT -- DO YOU

KNOW WHETHER OR NOT POLICE DEPARTMENTS AT THIS POINT IN THIS STATE HAVE

THE RESOURCES OR HAVE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER ON STAFF AT ALL TIMES?

MS. CRUZ: I DON'T THINK THAT THEY HAVE IT AS STAFF AT

197

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ALL TIMES, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THERE IS AN OGS CONTRACT THAT

THEY CAN ENTER INTO, OR THAT MOST OF THEM HAVE ENTERED INTO, WHERE THEY

CAN PROVIDE INTERPRETERS VIA TELEPHONICALLY.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. SO IT'S YOUR STATEMENT

THAT -- AND YOUR BELIEF THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY AN AGREEMENT THAT THEY CAN

ENTER INTO.

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, YES.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. SO DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT

THERE MIGHT BE ANY DELAYS IN LOCATING A PROPER INTERPRETER AT THAT

PARTICULAR POINT, WHICH THEN WOULD COMPROMISE THE VICTIM?

MS. CRUZ: I SUSPECT THAT UNLESS IT'S AN OBSCURE

LANGUAGE, MOST SERVICES ARE PRETTY QUICK IN OBTAINING A PERSON OVER THE

PHONE WHO SPEAKS THAT OTHER LANGUAGE.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. SO WHAT DO YOU DO IN A

RURAL AREA THAT DOESN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THAT INTERPRETER AND THE VICTIM IS

NOT GIVEN HER OR HIS JUSTICE IN A TIMELY FASHION?

MS. CRUZ: GIVEN THAT MOST OF THESE INTERPRETING

SERVICES, ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AREAS, ARE USED BY PHONE, I SUSPECT THAT AN

OFFICER WOULD BE ABLE TO GET SOMEBODY ON THE PHONE VERY QUICKLY.

AGAIN, UNLESS IT'S AN OBSCURE LANGUAGE, THERE SHOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM.

MR. MORINELLO: AND LET'S TAKE THE OBSCURE

LANGUAGE, OKAY? IN NEW YORK CITY I'M SURE THAT IT'S EASIER TO FIND AN

OBSCURE LANGUAGE, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: YOU WOULD THINK. I'VE HAD IN MY PAST

LIVE CASES WHERE IT TOOK ME A WEEK TO GET AN INTERPRETER. BUT IN

198

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INSTANCES LIKE THAT, YOU CAN ACTUALLY -- THIS IS WHERE THE FRIEND THAT YOU

DESCRIBED IN THE BEGINNING OF YOUR EXAMPLE CAN COME IN AND BE ABLE TO

INTERPRET FOR THEM. AND WE WOULD -- WE WOULD -- THEY WOULD JUST HAVE

TO SIGN A -- I THINK THE LANGUAGE IS IN HERE, GIVE ME ONE SECOND.

MR. MORINELLO: SURE.

MS. CRUZ: THERE'S A SHORT STATEMENT THAT THEY'RE

ABLE TO SIGN OFF ON. THE STATEMENT IN ENGLISH WOULD BE DRAFTED BY THE

INTERPRETER ALONG WITH THE AFFIDAVIT STATING THEIR QUALIFICATIONS, AND

AFFIRMING THE ACCURACY OF THE TRANSLATION. SO EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT COURT

CERTIFIED, IN THOSE FEW INSTANCES WHERE YOU HAVE A LANGUAGE THAT'S NOT

VERY COMMON, THERE WOULD BE A POSSIBILITY TO USE THAT SELF-TESTING

AFFIDAVIT OF ACCURACY.

MR. MORINELLO: SO WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT

SHOULD THAT SITUATION OCCUR, IT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT TO BE ABLE TO USE

EITHER A POLICE OFFICER THAT'S BILINGUAL OR A FRIEND OF THE VICTIM WHO

TRANSLATES FOR THAT VICTIM?

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S A -- I -- I WOULD BE MUCH MORE

COMFORTABLE WITH THE FRIEND OF THE VICTIM THAN WITH A POLICE OFFICER

BEING THE INTERPRETER, NOT FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN THEY'RE THE ONES WHO

HAVE TO ENFORCE THE LAW, AND SO I WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S

SOMEBODY WHO IS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THAT. BUT I THINK ULTIMATELY

THAT WOULD BE UP TO A COURT TO DETERMINE.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY, THANK YOU. SO AGAIN,

THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT

ONCE -- ONCE A -- AN ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT IS FILED, FROM THAT POINT ON

199

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WHETHER IT'S THE VICTIM OR THE DEFENDANT ARE PROTECTED BY CERTIFIED COURT

INTERPRETERS UNDER THE AUSPICES OF OFFICE OF COURT OF ADMINISTRATION.

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S WHAT I'VE SEEN IN PRACTICE, AS

WELL, YES.

MR. MORINELLO: I APOLOGIZE --

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN PRACTICE, AFTER

ARRAIGNMENT ON ONES THAT ARE IN COURT.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. THANK YOU.

ON THE BILL.

THANK YOU.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. MORINELLO: IT JUST SEEMS THAT OUR CRIMINAL

JUSTICE SYSTEM PROTECTS BOTH VICTIMS AND DEFENDANTS THROUGHOUT. THE

LANGUAGE BARRIER THAT THIS IS FOCUSED ON, THE FEAR IS, NUMBER ONE, THE

COST TO SMALLER DEPARTMENTS WILL DELAY JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIM. NUMBER

TWO, AT EVERY STAGE THAT VICTIM WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A

CERTIFIED INTERPRETER GO OVER THAT STATEMENT WITH THEM. NUMBER THREE,

ANY DELAYS COULD IMPACT THAT PARTICULAR VICTIM AND NOT BRING THEM

JUSTICE. I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS AN OVERREACH, I BELIEVE THAT IT IS NOT

NECESSARY AND I URGE MY COLLEAGUES TO VOTE NO ON THIS. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ANGELINO.

MR. ANGELINO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

YOU ASK THE SPONSOR IF SHE'LL YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. CRUZ, WILL YOU

200

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

YIELD?

MS. CRUZ: ABSOLUTELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. CRUZ YIELDS, SIR.

MR. ANGELINO: I HAD THE LUXURY OF SITTING RIGHT

NEXT TO THE QUESTIONS AS THEY WERE BEING ASKED, BUT I STILL MANAGED TO

COME UP WITH A COUPLE OF MY OWN. THE -- SO -- YOU KNOW I'M FROM A

RURAL AREA, CELL PHONE COVERAGE, NO GOOD. A LOT OF TIMES -- I CAN TELL

YOU EXACTLY THE SITUATION, THE TOWN OF SMYRNA, NEW YORK, LUMBER

MILL, THEY HAVE A LOT OF H-2A WORKERS THERE WHO ARE SPANISH SPEAKING,

AND OCCASIONALLY THERE IS AN ALTERCATION OR SOMETHING HAPPENS AND WE

GET INVOLVED. WE USUALLY TRY TO FIND A NEUTRAL EMPLOYEE TO TRANSLATE

FOR US TO GET THE GIST OF THAT. SO, SO FAR WE'RE OKAY, SO WE FIND OUT THERE

WAS A FIGHT, HE DID THIS, HE HIT THAT, OR WHATEVER. IT'S ONLY AT THE POINT

THAT WE'RE DRAFTING AN INFORMATION WE HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY?

MS. CRUZ: WELL, YES, BECAUSE THAT INFORMATION, ALL

OF THE SPECIFIC FACTS THAT YOU PUT INTO THE INFORMATION AS AN OFFICER ARE

WHAT THEN GETS USED BY THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY TO DETERMINE WHETHER --

DO WE CHARGE ANYTHING? WHAT ARE THOSE CHARGES AND HOW TO MOVE

FORWARD, AND WE WANT THAT TO BE AS SPECIFIC AS POSSIBLE. SO IF IT IS AN

EMERGENCY AND YOU HAVE TO RESPOND RIGHT THEN AND THERE, YOU MAY NOT

HAVE THAT TIME.

MR. ANGELINO: RIGHT.

MS. CRUZ: BUT IF YOU ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, AM I

ARRESTING THIS PERSON AND THEN I HAVE TO PASS ON WHAT'S IN THE

INFORMATION OVER TO THE DA, THAT IS WHAT THE BILL REQUIRES, THAT

201

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WHATEVER INFORMATION IS BEING USED BY THE -- BY LAW ENFORCEMENT FROM

A DEPONENT, THAT COULD BE THE VICTIM OR IF YOU'RE PUTTING INFORMATION OF

THE ACCUSED IN THERE AS WELL, THAT'S WHAT HAS TO BE TRANSLATED.

MR. ANGELINO: OKAY. SO A LOT OF TIMES IF IT'S

HE-SAID/SHE-SAID CUT AND DRY, WILL YOU LET THE COMPLAINANT OR DEPONENT

TO SIGN. DOES THIS ALSO INCLUDE STATEMENTS THAT -- ARE THE INFORMATION IS

BASED UPON? SO THE STATEMENT FROM THE VICTIM, THAT ALSO HAS TO BE --

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. ANGELINO: OKAY. THE --

MS. CRUZ: AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT'S EVEN MORE

IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF YOU NEED A STATEMENT FROM A VICTIM TO DETERMINE

WHY THE CRIME HAD BEEN COMMITTED AND WHAT IS THE CRIME, YOU WANT TO

MAKE SURE THAT THE DA HAS INFORMATION THAT IS AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE.

AND YOU MENTIONED THE EXAMPLE OF IN A RURAL AREA HAVING PEOPLE THAT

SPEAK SPANISH, I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS,

BUT DEPENDING ON THE COUNTRY YOU COME FROM, A SINGLE WORD CAN HAVE

TEN DIFFERENT MEANINGS IN SPANISH AND IT CAN COMPLETELY CHANGE THE

MEANING OF WHATEVER YOU'RE BEING TOLD, SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT

IS AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE.

MR. ANGELINO: DO YOU THINK THAT A -- I HEARD

WHEN THE JUDGE WAS ASKING, YOU MENTIONED TELEPHONIC. DO YOU THINK

A TELEPHONE -- A TELEPHONE CONVERSATION IS BETTER TRUSTED THAN A PERSON

WHO IS ACTUALLY THERE AND SEES THE -- HEARS THE VOICE INFLECTION AND SEES

THE PERSON?

MS. CRUZ: I THINK FOR INTERPRETATION PURPOSES I'VE

202

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SEEN IN PRACTICE, AND THIS IS MORE, I'VE SEEN BETTER INTERPRETATIONS

SOMETIMES BY PHONE THAN IN PERSON, AND VICE VERSA.

MR. ANGELINO: OKAY. AND WHAT ABOUT THE

ENGLISH -- THE USE OF ENGLISH IN SIGN LANGUAGE, WHICH WE ACTUALLY

ENCOUNTER JUST ABOUT AS FREQUENTLY. THIS IS ONLY SPOKEN WORD, THIS IS

NOT SIGN LANGUAGE?

MS. CRUZ: THIS BILL DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE THAT.

MR. ANGELINO: OKAY, AND BECAUSE SOMETIMES

SIGN LANGUAGE THEY WRITE OUT THEIR OWN STATEMENT AND --

MS. CRUZ: YOU JUST GAVE ME AN IDEA FOR MY NEXT

BILL.

MR. ANGELINO: OKAY. WELL, THANK YOU VERY

MUCH. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. MCGOWAN.

MR. MCGOWAN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL

THE SPONSOR YIELD?

MS. CRUZ: ABSOLUTELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. CRUZ, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. MCGOWAN: THANK YOU. I'M JUST -- I'M JUST

TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS BILL IMPACTS, I GUESS, CURRENT PROCESS. SO

ULTIMATELY THIS IS DEALING WITH ANY TIME THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT IS AN

203

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INFORMATION, WHICH CONTAINS NON-HEARSAY FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS SUPPLIED

BY, YOU KNOW, A COMPLAINANT, RIGHT. THAT HAS TO HAVE A CERTIFIED

TRANSLATOR, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: THAT HAS TO HAVE AN AFFIDAVIT FROM

SOMEONE CERTIFYING THAT THEY HAVE -- THEY ARE QUALIFIED TRANSLATORS AND

THAT THE INFORMATION IS ACCURATE TO THE BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. SO IN A SITUATION WHERE

THE POLICE AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY MOVE FORWARD WITH THE COMPLAINT

THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN CONVERTED TO AN INFORMATION, RIGHT, SO IT DOES

CONTAIN HEARSAY, AND THEN LATER ON DECIDES TO CONVERT THAT TO

INFORMATION WITH A SUPPORTING DEPOSITION. THAT PROCESS ISN'T CHANGED

HERE, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: NO.

MR. MCGOWAN: SO SOMEONE CAN MAKE A

COMPLAINT TO THE POLICE, PERHAPS IN A MORE RURAL AREA OR IN THE -- THE

MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, OR EARLY MORNING HOURS, FOR WHATEVER REASON NO

ONE IS THERE TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THIS TRANSLATION, THE POLICE COULD

MAKE AN ARREST --

MS. CRUZ: GO AHEAD, CONTINUE.

MR. MCGOWAN: -- THE POLICE COULD MAKE AN ARREST

AND ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT COULD BE FILED THAT'S A COMPLAINT THAT DOESN'T

HAVE THAT EXTRA NON-HEARSAY REQUIREMENT, THAT'S NOT CHANGED BY THIS,

CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: YEAH NO, I THINK YOU'RE CORRECT, IT

WOULDN'T BE TRIGGERED AT THAT POINT.

204

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. MCGOWAN: AND WE'RE ONLY DEALING WITH

MISDEMEANORS HERE, RIGHT?

MS. CRUZ: NO, IT'S FOR EVERYTHING.

MR. MCGOWAN: SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME HOW

THIS IMPACTS FELONY CHARGES?

MS. CRUZ: I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR QUESTION,

LIKE, YOU'RE ASKING WHAT WAY IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT?

MR. MCGOWAN: YES.

MS. CRUZ: IT WOULDN'T BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IS

USED NOW. THE ONLY THING THAT IT TOUCHES IS THE CERTIFYING OF THE

TRANSLATION, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY TOUCH THE OTHER AREAS OF THE PROCESS.

MR. MCGOWAN: WELL, THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT

UNDER LAW NOW THAT THE FELONY COMPLAINT BE CONVERTED TO AN

INFORMATION, CORRECT?

MS. CRUZ: NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.

MR. MCGOWAN: RIGHT. THE NEXT STEP WOULD BE TO

PROCEED TO GRAND JURY, WHICH WOULD BE LIVE TESTIMONY, THERE IS NO

WRITTEN SUPPORTING DEPOSITIONS.

MS. CRUZ: WELL, YOU DO HAVE THE INSTANCES WHERE

THE INITIAL CHARGE IS A MISDEMEANOR AND THEN GETS UPGRADED TO A FELONY

BASED ON THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT.

MR. MCGOWAN: WELL, THE UP-CHARGING, RIGHT, THAT

-- BUT THAT COULD BE DONE THROUGH THE GRAND JURY PROCESS, BUT AGAIN,

THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT THAT A FELONY -- I MEAN, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS

A FELONY INFORMATION, CORRECT?

205

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. CRUZ: NO, I DON'T THINK THERE IS.

MR. MCGOWAN: THAT'S WHAT THE GRAND IS JURY.

MS. CRUZ: YEAH.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY.

MS. CRUZ: BUT YOU SEE, IF YOU'RE INVOLVING A GRAND

JURY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE -- YOU'RE NOW IN THE COURT SYSTEM THAT THE

JUDGE MENTIONED, YOU WOULD HAVE AN INTERPRETER, SO...

MR. MCGOWAN: ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT, WE'RE ON

THE SAME PAGE WITH THAT, RIGHT?

MS. CRUZ: YEAH.

MR. MCGOWAN: SO I'M JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND,

THIS REALLY ONLY DEALS WITH MISDEMEANORS THAT, BY LAW, IN ORDER FOR THE

PROSECUTION TO PROCEED --

MS. CRUZ: WELL, IN PRACTICE, YES.

MR. MCGOWAN: LET ME JUST FINISH, RIGHT, SO TO

STAY READY FOR TRIAL, TO PROCEED, RIGHT, ASSUMING A COC IS FILED TO

COMPLY WITH ALL THESE NEW DISCOVERY LAWS AND EVERYTHING, RIGHT,

ASSUMING ALL THAT'S DONE, BUT TO CONVERT A COMPLAINT AND BE ABLE TO

PROCEED TO TRIAL ON A MISDEMEANOR YOU NEED AN INFORMATION.

(PAUSE)

MS. CRUZ: WHEN THE PERSON FIRST WALKS INTO A

POLICE STATION TO MAKE AN ACCUSATION, YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW IF IT'S

GOING TO BE A MISDEMEANOR OR A FELONY, AND THAT'S WHEN IT WOULD BE

TRIGGERED, BECAUSE AT THE POINT WHERE THEY'RE COMING INTO THE STATION TO

MAKE A COMPLAINT, OR, YOU KNOW, IN A RURAL AREA THEY CALL THE POLICE

206

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OVER, YOU DON'T KNOW AT THAT POINT WHAT IT'S GOING TO BE. AND SO WHAT

WE'RE SAYING IS AT THE POINT WHERE THE POLICE IS TAKING ALL THE

INFORMATION THAT HYPOTHETICALLY WOULD END UP IN AN INFORMATION OR

LEADING TO A CHARGE, YOU -- WE ARE ASKING THAT THAT INFORMATION, AND IT'S

CONFUSING BECAUSE WHAT WE KNOW AS INFORMATION AND WHAT'S

INFORMATION ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT --

MR. MCGOWAN: I'M WITH YOU.

MS. CRUZ: -- WHAT -- WHAT THE NARRATIVE, LET'S CALL IT

THE NARRATIVE THAT THEN GOES INTO THE INFORMATION, YOU DON'T KNOW AT THE

BEGINNING IF IT'S JUST GOING TO BE AN INFORMATION BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO

BE A MISDEMEANOR OR IT'S GOING TO END UP LEADING TO A FELONY.

MR. MCGOWAN: SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT BEFORE,

AGAIN, DEPENDING ON THE JURISDICTION, RIGHT, SOME PLACES THE POLICE

CHARGE, THEY FILE CHARGES, OR THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY FILES CHARGES, AND

I'VE WORKED IN BOTH JURISDICTIONS WHERE BOTH THINGS CAN HAPPEN. ARE

YOU SAYING THAT BEFORE CHARGES CAN BE FILED, WHETHER IT'S A COMPLAINT, A

MISDEMEANOR COMPLAINT, MISDEMEANOR INFORMATION, OR FELONY

COMPLAINT, THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE THIS EXTRA CERTIFICATION IN ORDER TO

EVEN CHARGE THE DEFENDANT?

MS. CRUZ: I DON'T THINK THE BILL -- THE BILL DOES NOT

CONTEMPLATE TIMELINE. THE BILL CONTEMPLATES THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE

WHO DOESN'T SPEAK ENGLISH IS GOING TO THE POLICE AND SAYING THIS IS

WHAT'S HAPPENED TO ME, I'M A VICTIM OF X-Y-Z, AND AT THAT POINT WHEN

THEY'RE A PERCEIVED VICTIM, THAT'S WHEN WE'RE REQUIRING A CERTIFIED

TRANSLATOR.

207

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. MCGOWAN: SO IN THE INSTANCE WHERE, AND

WHOEVER IT IS, BUT THEY'RE NOT A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER OR TRANSLATOR,

WHETHER IT'S A POLICE OFFICER OR THE VICTIMS FRIEND, WHEN THEY COME IN

AND AN ALLEGATION IS MADE ACCUSING SOMEONE ELSE OF A CRIME, ARE YOU

SAYING THAT THE POLICE CANNOT CHARGE UNTIL THEY GET THIS STATEMENT

CERTIFIED?

MS. CRUZ: WE'RE NOT SAYING THEY CANNOT CHARGE. I

THINK IN THAT INSTANCE IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. SO THERE'S NOTHING IN THIS

BILL THAT PROHIBITS CHARGING -- I UNDERSTAND, AND WHEN WE USE THE WORD

"INFORMATION" MEANING THE TYPE OF ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT, RIGHT?

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S RIGHT.

MR. MCGOWAN: BUT THE POLICE COULD PROCEED AND

THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY COULD PROCEED AT LEAST INITIALLY ON A COMPLAINT

THAT'S NOT CONVERTED YET TO AN INFORMATION. THIS DOESN'T --

MS. CRUZ: YES. WE'RE NOT TOUCHING THAT, YES.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. SO IT'S ONLY -- THE SCENARIO

WOULD INVOLVE LATER ON IF ONCE THE CHARGING DECISION IS MADE, THE

PERSON IS CHARGED, RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A TRANSLATION, IT WILL BE NOT

CERTIFIED, IN ORDER FOR THEM TO CREATE AN ACCUSATORY THAT COULD PROCEED

AT LEAST AT THE MISDEMEANOR LEVEL, THEY HAVE TO GET IT CONVERTED TO AN

INFORMATION, RIGHT?

MS. CRUZ: YEAH, YES.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. SO NONE OF THAT HAS

CHANGED. IT'S JUST THE REQUIREMENT TO CONVERT A COMPLAINT TO AN

208

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INFORMATION --

MS. CRUZ: OR WHATEVER THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT

WOULD BE IF IT WOULD CAUSE A FELONY.

MR. MCGOWAN: BUT THERE IS NO -- BUT THAT ONLY

HAPPENS AT GRAND JURY. SO THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO SUPPORTING

DEPOSITION WITH A FELONY INDICTMENT --

MS. CRUZ: YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. MCGOWAN: RIGHT, THAT'S THE GRAND JURY, THAT

WOULD BE THE GRAND JURY, RIGHT, OKAY. SO AGAIN, THIS ONLY APPLIES TO

MISDEMEANORS.

MS. CRUZ: YES, INITIALLY, BUT I WANT TO REMIND YOU

OF THE EXAMPLE I GAVE OF THE UP-CHARGING. IN AN INSTANCE LIKE THAT, YOU

BEGIN WITH THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT AND THEN IT EVENTUALLY TURNS INTO

SOMETHING ELSE.

MR. MCGOWAN: BUT YOU COULD ONLY DO THAT IF YOU

FILE A FELONY COMPLAINT AGAIN. UNLESS THE LAW HAS BEEN COMPLETELY

REWRITTEN THAT I'M NOT AWARE OF, IN ORDER TO PROCEED WITH A PROSECUTION

OF ANYONE WITH A FELONY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN INDICTMENT UNLESS THE

DEFENDANT WAIVES --

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. MCGOWAN: -- AND THERE'S AN EMPIRICAL OF

INFORMATION.

MS. CRUZ: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. MCGOWAN: BUT PUTTING THAT SITUATION ASIDE,

SO AGAIN, IN ORDER TO PROCEED WITH THE PROSECUTION OF SOMEBODY, UNDER

209

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THIS BILL, THIS IS ONLY DEALING WITH MISDEMEANORS THAT REQUIRE IT TO BE

CONVERTED TO AN INFORMATION CONTAINING NON-HEARSAY, FACTUALITY

(INAUDIBLE), RIGHT?

MS. CRUZ: THE BILL DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT IT

APPLIES TO MISDEMEANORS. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THAT IN

PRACTICE THAT'S THE WAY THAT IT COULD PLAY OUT --

MR. MCGOWAN: WELL, I THINK ON THE REST OF THE

LAW. I THINK THIS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE REST OF THE CPL AND PENAL

LAW, THAT'S THE ONLY WAY IT CAN PLAY OUT.

MS. CRUZ: YEAH.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY. SO -- OKAY.

MS. CRUZ: BUT YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY I NEVER WANT

TO RULE SOME SORT OF OTHER SCENARIO, SO I'M GOING TO SAY YES, BUT MAYBE.

MR. MCGOWAN: OKAY, WE'LL GO WITH THAT. OKAY,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, I APPRECIATE IT.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU.

MR. MCGOWAN: SIR, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. MCGOWAN: YOU KNOW, I THINK ULTIMATELY

THERE'S PERHAPS SOME CONFUSION OF WHAT EXACTLY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

HERE. I MEAN, LOOK, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE CANNOT IMPOSE LAWS THAT

RESTRICT THE POLICE FROM MAKING ARRESTS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PROBABLE

CAUSE DETERMINATION, WHICH IS VERY FAR BELOW BEYOND A REASONABLE

DOUBT WHICH IS REQUIRED TO CONVICT SOMEONE OF A CRIME. SO MY

CONCERN HERE IS THAT PERHAPS THIS PUTS TOO MUCH OF A BURDEN ON POLICE

210

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND PROSECUTION WHEN THEY HAVE A GOOD FAITH BASIS. IF SOMEBODY

COMES IN WITH A FRIEND OR THERE'S A POLICE OFFICER, I MEAN, I HAVE -- I

REPRESENT POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, THAT HAVE

JURISDICTION OVER AREAS WITH SUBSTANTIAL SPANISH-SPEAKING RESIDENTS,

HAITIAN CREOLE SPEAKING, YIDDISH SPEAKING RESIDENTS, SO THE POLICE ARE

IN TUNE TO WHO THEY REPRESENT AND HAVE PROPER -- THE PROPER ABILITY TO

RELATE TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS AND TAKE A COMPLAINT. WHAT WE DON'T WANT

OUR BILLS THAT IMPEDE THE POLICE ABILITY TO GO OUT AND MAKE ARRESTS

WHEN THERE'S A GOOD FAITH BASIS PROVIDED TO THEM WHICH COULD THEN

FURTHER ENDANGER PUBLIC SAFETY.

SO ULTIMATELY THIS BILL I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY THIS

DOES ONLY APPLY TO MISDEMEANORS, BY OPERATION OF THE REST OF THE

CRIMINAL PROCEDURAL LAW, BECAUSE ANY FELONY CHARGE DOES NOT REQUIRE

INFORMATION, WHICH IS A TYPE OF ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT REQUIRING

NON-HEARSAY FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY BE REPLACED BY A

GRAND JURY ACTION OR DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. SO, YOU KNOW, I HAVE

CONCERNS WITH THIS BILL. I THINK IT'S IN SOME WAYS BROUGHT ATTENTION, BUT

ULTIMATELY THAT'S THE JOB OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, RIGHT, AS SOMEONE WHO

PRACTICES CRIMINAL DEFENSE, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY BE THE JOB

TO CHALLENGE THE VORACITY AND ACCURACY OF THOSE STATEMENTS. SO I DON'T

THINK WE SHOULD BE DOING THE JOB OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, THAT'S REALLY

WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE. SO I THINK IT'S A BIT OF A REACH, I THINK IT'S

UNNECESSARY, AND FOR THOSE REASONS, SIR, I WILL BE RESPECTFULLY VOTING IN

THE NEGATIVE. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

211

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. LAVINE.

MR. LAVINE: THANK YOU. WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. CRUZ, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MS. CRUZ: OF COURSE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THERE SHE IS.

MR. LAVINE: SO SOMEONE WHO IS ARRESTED HAS GOT A

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY ARRAIGNMENT, AND SOMEONE WHO IS THE VICTIM OF A

CRIME HAS A RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTORS

PROCESS THAT -- PROCESS THE MATTER. SO I'M -- AND I'M SORRY, I'M JUST A

LITTLE CONFUSED, IT'S A LONG TIME SINCE I WAS IN THE CRIMINAL COURTS OF THE

STATE OF NEW YORK. AND WE HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN

SOMEONE COMES TO THE PRECINCT AND MAKES A COMPLAINT, BUT WHAT ABOUT

THE SCENARIO WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT IS OUT ON THE STREETS AND THEY

WITNESS, LET'S ASSUME, A ROBBERY. AND THEY ARREST SOMEONE AND THE

VICTIM IS NOT CONVERSANT -- OR FULLY CONVERSANT IN ENGLISH. IN ORDER FOR

THEM TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROPOSED LAW, IS IT GOING TO REQUIRE EXTRA

TIME TO BE ABLE TO LOCATE AN INTERPRETER AND THEN TO DO THE DEPOSITION

THAT THE INTERPRETER IS SUPPOSED TO EXECUTE BEFORE THE MATTER CAN GO TO

THE INITIAL JUDGE OR MAGISTRATE?

MR. CRUZ: DO YOU MEAN LIKE BEFORE THEY ARREST

THEM, EVEN IN YOUR SCENARIO THEY ACTUALLY SAW A CRIME OCCUR?

MR. LAVINE: THEY'VE ACTUALLY -- THEY SEE A CRIME

IN PROCESS.

MS. CRUZ: NO, THEY -- IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO WAIT.

212

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

YOU KNOW, IF THEY SAW A CRIME HAPPEN, THE POLICE MAKE THE ARREST,

WHAT WOULD WE WOULD ASK IS THAT IN THAT INSTANCE IF THEY'RE GOING TO

ALSO TAKE A STATEMENT, BUT THEY ALSO SAW IT HAPPEN, FROM THE VICTIM

WHO DOESN'T --

MR. LAVINE: YES.

MS. CRUZ: -- SPEAK THE LANGUAGE, THEY DO

SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS PICK UP A PHONE AND CALL THE WHATEVER NUMBER

THEIR STATION HAS GIVEN THEM TO GET AN INTERPRETER, AND I'M GOING TO USE

THE EXAMPLE OF THE NYPD, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THEY HAVE LIKE A

CARD THAT HAS DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, THE PERSON POINTS TO IT, THEY CALL, THEY

GET THE INFORMATION, AND THESE COMPANIES ARE GENERALLY CERTIFIED

INTERPRETERS. SO ALL THEY'D HAVE TO DO ONCE THEY DO ALL THE PAPERWORK IS

GET SOMETHING THAT SAYS WE TRANSLATED, IT'S CORRECT, AND EVERYBODY

KEEPS IT MOVING.

MR. LAVINE: AND THAT TRANSLATION, THAT DEPOSITION

BY THE INTERPRETER, SEPARATE DEPOSITION, THAT MUST ACCOMPANY WHATEVER

COURT PAPERS ARE FILED?

MS. CRUZ: YES.

MR. LAVINE: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 90TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

213

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED FOR THE REASONS MENTIONED BY MY

COLLEAGUES. THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT ARE CERTAINLY WELCOME TO VOTE YES

ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. HEVESI.

MR. HEVESI: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS WILL

BE A PARTY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. ANY OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO WISH TO

VOTE NO, PLEASE CALL JOHN KNIGHT, I'LL GIVE YOU THE CELL NUMBER, IT'S 9 --

(LAUGHTER)

YOU CAN DO SO AT YOUR DESKS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MR.

HEVESI.

MR. -- I'M SORRY.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. ANGELINO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. ANGELINO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE ON 9122. COPS ON PATROL ARE DOING THE BEST THAT THEY

CAN ALL THE TIME, AND I HEARD A COUPLE OF TIMES, IT'S AS SIMPLE AS PICKING

UP A PHONE. AND I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU, THERE'S SOMETIMES MAKING A

PHONE CALL IS AS SIMPLE AS DRIVING A PATROL CAR NINE MILES TO A HILLTOP TO

GET SERVICE. THE -- THE SITUATION OF AN OFFICER ON PATROL COMING ACROSS

A CRIME IN PROGRESS, MAKING AN ARREST, WHICH HAS HAPPENED, WHERE YOU

214

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SEE SOMETHING TAKING PLACE AND YOU'RE NOT NEAR A PHONE, YOU HAVE NO

SERVICE, YOU'RE DOING THE BEST YOU CAN, AND THEY MIGHT END UP WITH THE

ACTOR IN THE BACK SEAT AND THE VICTIM IN THE FRONT SEAT TRYING TO -- TRYING

TO GET TO A STATION. THINGS ON THE ROAD ARE JUST NOT AS SIMPLE AS THEY

ARE HERE IN THE CHAMBERS, AS DESCRIBED. I -- NOBODY WANTS TO DENY A

VICTIM THEIR RIGHT TO ACCUSE SOMEBODY, AND NOBODY WANTS TO TAKE AWAY

THE RIGHTS OF THE ACCUSED, AND I JUST ONLY HOPE THAT AN OFFICER ON PATROL

DOING THE BEST HE CAN USING A FAMILY MEMBER, OR THERE'S EVEN BEEN

CASES WHERE THE ACTOR HAS HELPED TRANSLATE WHAT IS BEING SAID, THAT WE

CAN GET SOMETHING ON PAPER THAT LATER ON CAN BE AN AMENDMENT IN

COURT. BUT THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN OUT ON THE STREET, JUST -- ONE SIZE

DOES NOT FIT ALL AND WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS ROOM IS SO FAR DIFFERENT THAN

WHAT AN OFFICER ON PATROL IS GOING TO EXPERIENCE. I APPRECIATE THE

CORDIALITIES THAT MYSELF AND THE SPONSOR HAD BACK AND FORTH. I DID NOT

READ THE BILL AND I APPRECIATE HER ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS, BUT I'LL BE

VOTING NO. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ANGELINO IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MS. CRUZ TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. CRUZ: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I JUST WANT TO

REASSURE EVERYONE, THIS BILL IS MEANT TO ENSURE THAT OUR SYSTEM WORKS.

THE REALITY IS THAT PEOPLE IN NEW YORK SPEAK MORE THAN JUST ENGLISH,

AND SOMETIMES THEY DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL. BUT THEY ALSO DESERVE

THE PROTECTIONS THAT OUR STATE PROVIDES, THEY DESERVE TO FEEL SAFE, AND

THEY DESERVE TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE POLICE WHEN THEY DON'T, AND HAVE

215

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE PERSON WHO AGGRIEVED THEM ARRESTED IF THAT IS CASE. AND THE PERSON

WHO IS ACCUSED ALSO DESERVES THEIR DAY IN COURT. AND THIS IS DONE TO

ENSURE THAT WHATEVER IS DONE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE PROCESS IS ACCURATE,

IS CORRECT, AND IT LEADS TO JUSTICE. WE ARE NOT DOING AN UNFUNDED

MANDATE, THERE'S ALREADY CONTRACTS WITH OGS. WE'RE NOT ASKING POLICE

TO DO ANYTHING THAT MANY OF THEM AREN'T ALREADY DOING. AND TO NOTE,

MANY POLICE OFFICERS ARE ACTUALLY TOLD BY THEIR PRECINCTS THAT THEY ARE

NOT ALLOWED TO BE INTERPRETERS BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE

IS AN INDEPENDENT PERSON THAT IS DOING THE TRANSLATION AND ENSURING ITS

ACCURACY. THE ONLY THING THAT THIS BILL DOES IS SAY YOU NOW NEED TO

SIGN A LITTLE DOCUMENT THAT SAYS THIS IS ACCURATE, AND PROVIDE THAT

DOCUMENT SAYING THAT YOU ARE A -- A QUALIFIED INTERPRETER, AND THEN THAT

GOES ON WITH THE REST OF THE PROCESS IN COURT TO ENSURE THAT THE VICTIM

HAS JUSTICE AND THAT IF THE PERSON COMMITTED A CRIME, THEY HAVE ALL THE

INFORMATION NEEDED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. THANK YOU, AND I'LL BE

VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. CRUZ IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. ZACCARO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE

MR. ZACCARO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. IT IS A

UNIVERSAL TRUTH THAT NEW YORK IS A DIVERSE MULTILINGUAL MELTING POT

WHERE FROM AROUND THE WORLD -- FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AROUND THE WORLD

CALL OUR STATE HOME. THIS CHAMBER HAS PASSED MANY BILLS WHOSE

INTENT IS TO INSIST NON-ENGLISH SPEAKERS ENSURE THAT THEY'RE TREATED

EQUALLY AND THAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE UPHELD AND THE BILL BEFORE US TODAY IS

216

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NO DIFFERENT. REQUIRING QUALIFIED TRANSLATORS TO BE PRESENT AND TO

TRANSLATE VERBAL OR WRITTEN STATEMENTS FROM A NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING

DEPONENT SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED AS OVERLY BURDENSOME. BY ENACTING

THIS LEGISLATION WE'RE NOT ONLY UPHOLDING THE PRINCIPLES OF FAIRNESS AND

EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW BUT ALSO ENSURING THE INTEGRITY OF OUR LEGAL

SYSTEM. I URGE ALL MY COLLEAGUES TO STAND ON THE SIDE OF JUSTICE TODAY

AND SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION. AND BY DOING SO WE SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE

THAT IN OUR PURSUIT OF A MORE JUST SOCIETY NO ONE WILL BE LEFT BEHIND

BECAUSE OF THE LANGUAGE THAT THEY SPEAK. I WANT TO THANK THE BILL

SPONSOR FOR HER WORK ON THIS BILL AND I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. ZACCARO IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 16, RULES REPORT NO. 268, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. S08136-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 268, SENATOR SANDERS (VANEL, BURDICK, SAYEGH--A09507).

AN ACT IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING THE NEW YORK STATE CRYPTOCURRENCY

AND BLOCKCHAIN STUDY TASK FORCE; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH

PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. VANEL.

MR. VANEL: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. NEW YORK

217

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IS ARGUABLY THE FINANCIAL CAPITAL OF THE WORLD. AND MOST OF -- MOST --

AND MOST OF US MUST ENSURE THAT WE ARE HELPING TO FOSTER THE CREATION

OF AN ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWS AND CONTINUES US TO LEAD IN THE FINANCIAL

SECTOR. NEW YORK -- THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE AND NASDAQ

ARE TWO OF THE WORLDS MOST VALUABLE STOCK EXCHANGES THAT ARE LOCATED

RIGHT IN NEW YORK. HOWEVER, IT'S NOT GUARANTEED THAT WE REMAIN THE

SAME AND THAT WE REMAIN THE FINANCIAL LEADER. IN REALITY, IN THE CURRENT

ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT, WE ARE COMPETING WITH LIKES OF LONDON,

TOYKO, SHANGHAI AND HONG KONG FOR FINANCIAL INVESTMENTS AND OUR

POSITION AS A FINANCIAL LEADER. IN THE CURRENT DIGITAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL

WORLD, NEW YORK IS VYING FOR A FUTURE OF FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS AND

ACTIVITY WITH ALMOST EVERY GLOBAL MARKET AND STATE. CRYPTOCURRENCIES

HAVE BEEN MAKING IN ROADS IN NEW YORK FOR OVER A DECADE. A RISING

NUMBER OF BUSINESSES AROUND THE STATE ARE ACCEPTING CRYPTOCURRENCY

PAYMENTS, AND THROUGHOUT THE STATE THERE ARE A NUMBER OF

CRYPTOCURRENCY-RELATED INVESTMENTS, INVESTMENT COMPANIES AND

BUSINESSES. BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT UNDERGIRDS THE

INDUSTRY. ITS BENEFITS ARE DECENTRALIZATION, IMMUTABLE SECURITY,

TRANSPARENCY AMONGST OTHER THINGS. THE BIT LICENSE WAS A LICENSE FOR

VIRTUAL CURRENCY ACTIVITIES IN NEW YORK STATE THAT WAS PROMULGATED BY

THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCIAL SERVICES IN 2015. WE MUST THOROUGHLY

COMPREHEND THE IMPLICATIONS OF BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY, ITS IMPACT ON

INNOVATION, ITS POTENTIAL FOR JOBS AND ECONOMIC GROWTH, ENERGY

CONSUMPTION, ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES AND COMPETITION KNOWN TO

SUPPLEMENT THE BIT LICENSE WITH ITS CURVE FOR THE CORRECT LEGISLATIVE

218

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FRAMEWORK. NEW YORK MUST BE A STATE WHERE WE -- ONE, WHERE

CONSUMERS AND INVESTORS ARE SAFEGUARDED, WHERE MONEY LAUNDERING IS

PREVENTED, WHERE NEW YORKERS ARE PROTECTED FROM UNSCRUPULOUS USERS

AND ACTORS, WHERE EMPLOYMENT AND ECONOMIC GROWTH IS PROMOTED AND

WHERE THE TECHNOLOGY USES ARE -- ARE CONSIDERED. THE BILL ESTABLISHES A

CRYPTOCURRENCY AND BLOCKCHAIN STUDY TASK FORCE, AND ITS GOAL IS TO

PROVIDE THE GOVERNOR AND THE LEGISLATURE WITH INFORMATION ON THE

EFFECTS OF THE WIDESPREAD USE OF CRYPTOCURRENCIES AND ANCILLARY

SYSTEMS INCLUDING BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. VANEL, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. VANEL: YES, I WILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. VANEL YIELDS, SIR.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. AS YOU NOTED, A

NUMBER OF YEARS AGO WE AUTHORIZED THE ISSUANCE OF CRYPTOCURRENCY, I

GUESS IT'S CALLED BIT LICENSES. AM I CORRECT, THOUGH, THAT EVEN THOUGH

IT'S NOW BEEN SEVERAL YEARS LATER, NEW YORKERS ARE STILL NOT ALLOWED TO

UTILIZE SOME OF THE LARGEST BITCOIN COMPANIES OR -- OR EXCHANGES?

MR. VANEL: SO IN 2015 NEW YORK -- NEW YORK

PROMULGATED UNDER DFS THE BIT LICENSE. AND SINCE THEN THE BIT

LICENSE THAT IS USED TO PROTECT NEW YORKERS FROM -- TO MAKE SURE THAT

WE PROTECT NEW YORKERS FROM UNSCRUPULOUS ACTORS, AND IN FACT WE

219

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HAVE DONE SO. SINCE HAVING THE BIT LICENSE WE HAVE PROTECTED NEW

YORKERS FROM A LOT OF THE WORST SITUATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN HAPPENING IN

-- IN THE INDUSTRY.

MR. GOODELL: BUT AM I CORRECT THAT WE CURRENTLY

DON'T ALLOW NEW YORKERS TO PARTICIPATE IN PROMINENT EXCHANGES SUCH

AS BINANCE OR USC TORO OR EVEN VOYAGER, YES, OR EVEN CRYPTO.COM,

RIGHT?

MR. VANEL: YES, SO, YES. SO NEW YORKERS ARE NOT

ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN MANY OTHER -- IN A NUMBER OF EXCHANGES THAT

HAVE NOT WORKED TO GO THROUGH DFS. THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCIAL

SERVICES IS ONE OF THE PREMIERE, IF NOT THE PREMIERE AGENCIES AROUND

THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO CRYPTOCURRENCY PROTECTION AND -- AND --

AND -- AND REGULATIONS. AND AS A MATTER OF FACT WE WORKED WITH THE

NEW YORK STATE -- DFS HAS WORKED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND

MANY OTHER GOVERNMENTS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT WE

PROPERLY PROTECT INVESTORS.

MR. GOODELL: IN FACT, I THINK NEW YORK IS THE

ONLY STATE IN THE NATION THAT DOESN'T ALLOW PARTICIPATION IN CRYPTO.COM

EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE TEN MILLION CUSTOMERS.

MR. VANEL: NONETHELESS, YES. AND NEW YORK IS --

NEW YORK IS ONE OF THE FIRST -- ONE OF THE ONLY STATES THAT PROTECTED --

AND I DON'T WANT TO NAME OTHER KINDS OF PLATFORMS THAT PROTECTED -- THAT

PROTECTED FOLKS FROM A LOT OF THE PLATFORMS THAT HAVE BEEN

UNSCRUPULOUS, SO THAT IS -- YES, THAT IS THE CASE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW THIS BILL WAS VETOED LAST YEAR

220

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ALONG WITH I THINK 32 OTHERS ON THE GROUNDS THERE WASN'T ANY FUNDING

PROVIDED FOR THIS TASK FORCE. HAS THAT ISSUE BEEN ADDRESSED?

MR. VANEL: AGAIN, SO THE -- -- THE -- THERE WERE

TASK FORCE THAT WERE APPROVED LAST -- LAST YEAR, AND ALSO THIS -- THIS BILL

WAS PASSED IN 2019 AND WE ACTUALLY WORKED AT THAT TIME. THE ONLY

REASON WHY IT DIDN'T -- DIDN'T GO THROUGH WAS BECAUSE OF THE -- THE

UNFORTUNATE EVENTS IN 2020.

MR. GOODELL: BUT AS FAR AS ADDRESSING THE

GOVERNOR'S VETO, THE FUNDING HAS BEEN INCLUDED IN THE BUDGET FOR THIS

TASK FORCE?

MR. VANEL: NO.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. ONE LAST QUESTION, I SEE THAT

THERE ARE FOUR MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE TEMPORARY SENATE --

TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE AND FOUR MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE

SPEAKER OF THE ASSEMBLY BUT NO MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE MINORITY

EITHER IN THE SENATE OR THE ASSEMBLY. WHY IS THAT?

MR. VANEL: IN THIS BILL IT DOESN'T SPECIFY ANY

MAJORITY OR MINORITY, SO IT DOESN'T SPECIFY ANY POLITICAL PARTIES. AND IN

-- IN FACT, WHEN WE -- WHEN THE BILL WAS PASSED IN 2019 WE ACTUALLY

WORKED WITH THE MINORITY IN ORDER TO HELP FILL THE -- FILL THE POSITIONS.

MR. GOODELL: BUT MY QUESTION IS, HOW COME

THERE ARE NO MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE MINORITY LEADER IN THE

ASSEMBLY OR THE MINORITY LEADER IN THE SENATE, THAT ALL THE MEMBERS

ARE ONLY APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OR THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT?

MR. VANEL: SO IT -- IT JUST TALKED ABOUT THE POSITION

221

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF THE LEADERS OF THE HOUSE, BUT IN PRACTICE WHEN WE WORKED ON THIS

WE WORKED WITH THE MINORITY.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THOSE

QUESTIONS. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 17, RULES REPORT NO. 299, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. S01267-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 299, SENATOR BRESLIN (MCDONALD, STECK, STIRPE,

SANTABARBARA, THIELE, HEVESI, BURDICK, BEEPHAN, NORRIS, K. BROWN,

COLTON, BENDETT, GUNTHER, PAULIN, SEAWRIGHT, LEVENBERG, LAVINE,

LUNSFORD, ARDILA, COOK, REYES, MEEKS, SAYEGH, JACOBSON, SIMPSON,

DAVILA, LUPARDO, SIMON, GALLAHAN, RAGA, WEPRIN--A00901A). AN ACT

TO AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW AND THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW, IN RELATION TO

REQUIRING A UTILIZATION REVIEW AGENT TO FOLLOW CERTAIN RULES WHEN

ESTABLISHING A STEP THERAPY PROTOCOL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. MCDONALD.

222

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. MCDONALD: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS

LEGISLATION WORKS TO STREAMLINE THE STEP THERAPY PROCESS. MANY PEOPLE

ARE FAMILIAR WITH STEP THERAPY. IT'S A VERY EFFECTIVE TOOL WHEN IT COMES

TO PRESCRIPTION THERAPY, BUT THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF CONCERNS THAT HAVE

BEEN RAISED OVER THE YEARS. AS A PRACTICING PHARMACIST, I HAVE SEEN THE

VALUES, I HAVE ALSO SEEN THE CHALLENGES. SO THERE'S MULTIPLE ITEMS THAT I

WOULD JUST TRY TO TIP THEM OFF BRIEFLY THAT IT TRIES TO ADDRESS. IT

PROHIBITS THE USE OF OFF-LABEL MEDICATION TO BE USED AS PART OF STEP

THERAPY, DEFINES HOW MANY DRUGS PER THERAPEUTIC CATEGORY PER STEP

THERAPY BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL PRESCRIBED DRUG BY THE

PRACTITIONER, ALIGNS STEP THERAPY WITH EVIDENCE-BASED GUIDELINES,

DEFINES THE STEP THERAPY DURATION. IT REDUCES THE ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN

FOR PROVIDERS. WE'VE HEARD FROM A LOT OF PHYSICIANS, NURSE

PRACTITIONERS AND PAS ABOUT SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT IMPACTS THEIR

OFFICE AND ALSO IMPACTS THEIR PATIENTS' CARE. IT STILL STRIVES TO ADDRESS

THE COST EFFECTIVENESS OF STEP THERAPY. IT APPROVES PATIENT MEDICATION

ACCEPTANCE BECAUSE SOMETIMES PATIENTS GET DISCOURAGE WHEN THEY HEAR

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ONE MINUTE, MR.

MCDONALD. MEMBERS, WE'RE ON DEBATE.

SIR.

MR. MCDONALD: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. SO IT

IMPROVES BOTH MEDICATION ACCEPTANCE BECAUSE MANY TIMES PATIENTS GO

TO THE PHARMACY, THEY HEAR THERE'S STEP THERAPY AND THEY WALK AWAY

AND NEVER START THE MEDICATION. IT ACTUALLY IMPROVES ADHERENCE AS

223

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WELL. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR THOSE PATIENTS WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH

A STEP THERAPY REGIMEN BEFORE AND THEIR PLAN CHANGES, THEY CHANGE

THEIR PLAN, WHY DID THEY CHANGE THEIR PLAN, EXCUSE ME. IF THE STEP

THERAPY REGIMEN IS SIMILAR WITH THE PRIOR PLAN, WE ESTABLISH A PROCESS

FOR IT TO BE AUTHORIZED WITHOUT THEM GOING THROUGH STEP THERAPY AGAIN.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BLUMENCRANZ.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MCDONALD, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MR. MCDONALD: YES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. MCDONALD: YES, MR. SPEAKER.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO WITH REGARDS TO THE

PROCESS OF STEP THERAPY, HOW WILL IT -- CAN YOU JUST GIVE SOME OF YOUR

REASONING BEHIND REMOVING THE ABILITY TO USE OFF-LABELED DRUGS?

MR. MCDONALD: IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THIS, I KNOW

YOU'RE RIGHT THERE, BUT I COULDN'T HEAR WHAT YOU SAID. YOU SAID

SOMETHING ABOUT OFF-LABEL DRUGS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: WHAT WAS YOUR REASONING

BEHIND THE REMOVAL OF OFF-LABEL DRUGS?

MR. MCDONALD: SO, YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING

PART OF OFF-LABEL DRUGS IS VERY INTERESTING. I CAN TELL YOU THAT, YOU

KNOW, AND THIS IS THE TIME TO EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRIOR

AUTHORIZATION AND STEP THERAPY. MANY TIMES I HAD PATIENTS COMPLAIN

224

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BECAUSE A PRESCRIBER WILL WRITE A PRESCRIPTION FOR SOMETHING THAT'S OFF

LABEL AND IT'S REJECTED ON OUR PRIOR APPROVAL, BUT THEN RARELY DOES THIS

HAPPEN, IT'S INCLUDED IN A STEP THERAPY REGIMEN. THE BOTTOM LINE IS

OFF-LABEL MEANS THAT IT'S NOT APPROVED BY THE FDA. IT DOES MEAN THAT

THERE'S INFORMATION OUT THERE THAT INDICATES IT MIGHT BE EFFECTIVE, BUT IN

THE PATIENT'S BEST INTEREST, AND ACTUALLY I THINK THE PLAN'S BEST INTEREST IN

MOST CIRCUMSTANCES, IT'S BEST TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR DELINEATED PROCESS

WITH MEDICATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE FOOD AND DRUG

ADMINISTRATION.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: NOW I'LL HAVE TO PUSH BACK

ON THAT A LITTLE BIT. I'VE SEEN INSTANCES MYSELF FOR HEALTH CARE PLANS FOR

LARGE AND SMALL CORPORATIONS AND COMPANIES WHERE THE SUCCESSES -- THE

SUCCESS OF A STEP PROTOCOL ON A RARE DISEASE OR A CANCER PATIENT

SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED THE PRICE SO MUCH SO THAT THE PRICE FOR ALL

PARTICIPANTS WAS LOWER. WOULD -- UNDER THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION,

WOULD THAT NOT BE THE CASE ANYMORE IF THAT PORTION OF THE STEP THERAPY

WAS NOT -- WAS AN OFF-LABEL DRUG?

MR. MCDONALD: SO LET ME GO BACK TO MY

ORIGINAL CONVERSATION ABOUT PRIOR APPROVAL AND STEP THERAPY. YOU

KNOW, PLANS REALLY HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT AND I FOUND OUT IN THIS

CONVERSATION WITH MANY DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS, WITH MANY DIFFERENT

PLANS, EVERYBODY LIKES TO DO IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY. AND THEN THE

QUESTION IS, WHY DO WE DO IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY? IS IT BECAUSE OF THE

CLINICAL OR THERAPEUTIC REASON, OR IS IT BECAUSE A -- A MONETARY REASON?

AND THE MONETARY REASON IS IS THAT FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PATIENT OR

225

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

COULD IT BE FOR THE BENEFIT OF A REBATE GOING BACK TO THE PBM OR THE

PLAN? SO, I CAN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTION A HUNDRED PERCENT CONFIDENTLY

BECAUSE THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS MOST STEP THERAPY PLANS ARE DESIGNED

THAT THE PATIENT HAS THE LEAST EXPENSIVE OPTION FIRST, WHICH USUALLY IS

THE LEAST EXPENSIVE OPTION FOR THE PATIENT.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M GOING TO JUST --

MR. MCDONALD: BUT IF -- IF -- JUST LET ME JUST

FINISH MY QUESTION, BUT IF PLAN A IS SAYING HEY, YOU GUYS (INAUDIBLE)

PRIOR AUTHORIZATION. NO, WE CAN'T USE OFF-LABEL (INAUDIBLE) BUT ON THE

OTHER HAND STEP THERAPY WE'RE GOING TO USE IT, I THINK THAT CALLS INTO

QUESTION, IT ADDS A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS TO THE PROCESS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: WELL, I THINK RESPECTFULLY IN

CERTAIN CASES IT MAY BE NOT NECESSARILY A PRIOR AUTHORIZATION BUT HEALTH

CARE PLANS HAVE A MAIN OBJECTIVE OF -- OF MAKING SURE YOU GET BETTER TO

BEGIN WITH, BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT IS COST-EFFECTIVENESS AND THEY DO

WORK ON DRIVING THE COST OF PRICES DOWN BOTH FOR THE PLAN AND THE

PARTICIPANTS AS WELL AS FOR THE COMPANY ITSELF. BUT WITH REGARDS TO THE

DURATION. NOW IN CONSIDERATION OF SOME OF THESE DURATIONS, 30 DAYS, I

KNOW WHEN WE TALK ABOUT STEP THERAPY, IT'S NOT USUALLY FOR MENTAL

HEALTH TREATMENT, BUT IN THE CASES OF CERTAIN MENTAL HEALTH DRUGS AS

WELL AS OTHER DRUGS, SOMETIMES 30 DAYS IS NOT ENOUGH TO SEE WHETHER

OR NOT A DRUG WORKED OR DIDN'T WORK. HOW WILL YOUR BILL AFFECT THIS

PROCESS?

MR. MCDONALD: THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION AND

I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MENTION TO, YOU, YOU KNOW, THIS HAS

226

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BEEN A TWO YEAR PROCESS ON THIS BILL. YES, THERE ARE ADVOCACY GROUPS

PROMOTING THIS BILL, BUT AT THE SAME TOKEN THE HEALTH PLANS HAVE -- HAVE

REQUESTED A LOT OF IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS OF WHICH I HAVE CONSIDERED

THE MAJORITY OF THEM, AND THIS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE. THE BILL ORIGINALLY

DRAFTED SPOKE PRIMARILY TO ONLY A 30-DAY DURATION OF PRESCRIPTION

MEDICATION, IN OTHER WORDS A 30-DAY TRIAL, AND I PUSHED BACK IN THE

ADVOCACY GROUP SAYING TO BE CLEAR, AN ANTIDEPRESSANT IS A GREAT

EXAMPLE OF WHICH YOU ALLUDED TO, IT SOMETIMES TAKE SIX, EIGHT, 12

WEEKS FOR A MEDICATION TO BE EFFECTIVE, AND THAT'S WHY WE INCLUDED

LANGUAGE IN HERE UNDER SECTION 15, SUBSECTION 3, REQUIRE THE USE OF

STEP THERAPY REQUIRED FOR LONGER THAN 30 DAYS OR A DURATION OF

TREATMENTS SUPPORTED BY CURRENT EVIDENCE-BASED TREATMENT GUIDELINES

APPROPRIATE TO THE SPECIFIC DISEASE STATE BEING TREATED.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: OKAY. WITH REGARDS TO THE

-- SORRY, ONE SECOND.

MR. MCDONALD: TAKE YOUR TIME.

(PAUSE)

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: ALL RIGHT. I THINK THAT'S --

THAT'S ABOUT IT FOR MY QUESTIONS FOR NOW. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

MR. MCDONALD: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 120TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

227

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. BLUMENCRANZ TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

WITH REGARDS TO THE BILL, I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SOME TROUBLE WITH THE

WAY THAT STEP THERAPY IS PERFORMED CURRENTLY. I THINK ALL OF US HAVE

SEEN THE FRUSTRATIONS, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEONE GOES FROM ONE

HEALTHCARE PLAN TO ANOTHER AND THEY'RE LED IN A LOOP WHERE THEY HAVE TO

THEN GO THROUGH ANOTHER STEP THERAPY WHERE THEY CAN EVEN BE TAKING

THE SAME DRUGS. AFTER SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH THE SPONSOR AND A LITTLE

BIT OF BACK AND FORTH AND THE LANGUAGE OF THE BILL, I -- I FEEL LIKE THIS

BILL DOES SUFFICIENTLY TACKLE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT MANY PEOPLE FACE

IN OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM TODAY. SO I'M HAPPY TO SUPPORT THIS PIECE OF

LEGISLATION. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. MCDONALD TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. MCDONALD: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND I

APPRECIATE THE COMMENTS OF MY COLLEAGUE BUT ALSO ALL THOSE WHO ARE

SUPPORTING THIS LEGISLATION. I WANT TO THANK ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS

INVOLVED. YOU KNOW, WE MENTIONED THE HEALTH PLANS A LOT. THEY HAVE

BEEN VERY HELPFUL. ALTHOUGH, I THINK THERE ARE STILL SOME AREAS OF

CONCERN. IN REGARDS TO REALLY GETTING US TO A SPOT THAT REALLY I THINK IS A

GOOD FIRST EFFORT AT COMING TO A SOLID COMPROMISE, I FIRMLY BELIEVE THE

PATIENTS HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE BATTERY OF STEP THERAPY BEFORE AND THEY

SWITCH PLANS. A SIMPLE NOTE FROM THE DOCTOR, WHICH IS WHAT THIS

228

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LEGISLATION CLARIFIES MAKES PERFECT SENSE. I THINK THE FACT THAT WE'VE

ACTUALLY LOOKED AT EVIDENCE-BASED GUIDELINES AS BEING THE

DETERMINATION OF THE DURATION OF STEP THERAPY MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

SO, ONCE AGAIN, I APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT OF MY

COLLEAGUES. MR. SPEAKER, I APPRECIATE THE HARD WORK OF OUR STAFF WHO

HELPED US WORK THROUGH THIS PROCESS AS WELL AND I AM VOTING IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MCDONALD IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 18, RULES REPORT NO. 324, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. S02124, RULES REPORT

NO. 324, SENATOR RIVERA (PAULIN, SAYEGH --A07725). AN ACT TO AMEND

THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO ALLOWING PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS TO

SERVE AS PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS FOR PURPOSES OF MEDICAID-MANAGED

CARE PLANS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MS. PAULIN.

MS. PAULIN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THE BILL

WOULD ALLOW PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS TO SERVE AS PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS

FOR THE PURPOSES OF MEDICAID-MANAGED CARE PLANS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. WALSH.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

229

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SPONSOR YIELD FOR JUST A FEW QUESTIONS?

MS. PAULIN: ABSOLUTELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. PAULIN YIELDS.

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SO UNDER OUR

CURRENT LAW PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS HAVE TO WORK UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF

AN MD, CORRECT?

MS. PAULIN: YES.

MS. WALSH: AND DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW IF THAT

SUPERVISION IS -- HAS TO BE ON SITE OR CONTINUOUS OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT

THE NATURE OF THAT SUPERVISION, WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE?

MS. PAULIN: YES. IT'S -- THE RATIO IS 6:1 IN A

HOSPITAL AND THERE'S USUALLY SOME WHITE COAT AROUND, BUT THAT DOESN'T

HAVE TO BE OVER ON TOP OF THEM OR IN THE SAME ROOM. SAME IS TRUE

WHEN IT'S IN A PRIVATE PRACTICE.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. SO DOES THIS -- SO NOW THIS BILL

ONLY APPLIES TO THE MEDICAID PROGRAM, CORRECT?

MS. PAULIN: YES.

MS. WALSH: ALL RIGHT. SO IF -- IF A PHYSICIAN'S

ASSISTANT WISH TO AFTER THIS BILL, COULD THEY KIND OF HANG OUT THEIR

SHINGLE AND HAVE THEIR OWN FAMILY PRACTICE AND THEN JUST HAVE THAT

RELATIONSHIP WITH MAYBE AN OFF-SITE DOC THAT'S GOING TO REVIEW THEIR

FILES PERIODICALLY AND PROVIDE ADVICE OR WHATEVER?

MS. PAULIN: ALL THIS BILL REALLY DOES IS IT -- IT

REQUIRES OR IT WILL FORCE MEDICAID-MANAGED CARE IN THEIR BROCHURES TO

ALLOW MEDICAID PATIENTS TO CHOOSE, YOU KNOW, A PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT AS

230

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OPPOSED TO A -- TO A PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR. PARTLY THEY CAN DO THAT NOW,

BUT IT'S JUST NOT IN THE BROCHURE SO THAT PATIENTS ARE UNAWARE AND OFTEN

HAVE VERY LONG WAIT TIMES FOR THE DOCTORS THAT THEY MIGHT CHOOSE. SO

THIS WAY IT JUST GIVES MORE OPTIONS FOR MEDICAID CLIENTS. IT DOESN'T

CHANGE ANY OF THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT CURRENTLY EXIST.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. AND AS I BELIEVE YOU SAID

BEFORE BUT JUST TO REITERATE, DOES THIS BILL ALSO THEN PREVENT A

PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT TO BILL MEDICAID DIRECTLY FOR THE SERVICES THAT THEY

PROVIDE TO A PATIENT?

MS. PAULIN: THE BILLING ARRANGEMENT DOESN'T

CHANGE.

MS. WALSH: OKAY. WELL, THAT -- SO THAT'S MY -- I

GUESS REALLY MY LAST AREA OF QUESTIONING IS THAT THERE WAS AN IDENTICAL

BILL CARRIED BY A FORMER ASSEMBLYMEMBER GOTTFRIED THAT WAS VETOED IN

2022 BY THE GOVERNOR, WHO CLAIMED THAT THE BILL WOULD RESULT IN A

COMPLICATED AND COSTLY BILLING CHANGE FOR MEDICAID CLAIM SUBMISSION.

I MEAN, THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING. YOU'RE

SAYING IT WOULDN'T CHANGE AT ALL.

MS. PAULIN: RIGHT. WE DON'T BELIEVE IT WILL, AND IN

FACT IN THAT SAME VETO MESSAGE THE --- THE EXECUTIVE DID COMMIT TO

WORKING WITH THE PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS TO ALLOW WHAT WE'RE HOPING THIS

BILL WILL ALLOW, AND THEN THERE WAS JUST NO COOPERATION AND -- AND THERE

WAS NOTHING HAPPENED AFTER THAT VETO MESSAGE. SO WE FEEL THE NEED TO

PUT IT OUT AGAIN BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE A BACKLOG OF WAIT TIMES FOR

MEDICAID CLIENTS IN TERMS OF IDENTIFYING AND CHOOSING AND SEEING A

231

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN OR PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT.

MS. WALSH: VERY GOOD. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. WALSH: SO VERY BRIEFLY, I APPRECIATE THE -- THE

SHORT DEBATE THAT WE HAD. I -- I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT WHEN WE HAVE

SUCH A SHORTAGE OF MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS TO ASSIST PARTICULARLY PEOPLE

WHO ARE UTILIZING THE MEDICAID PROGRAM. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE

DO WHAT WE CAN TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF CHOICES THAT THESE

INDIVIDUALS HAVE IN SEEKING TIMELY CARE. I MEAN I'VE BEEN HEARING, I'M

SURE YOU HAVE, TOO, ABOUT SIGNIFICANT WAIT TIMES THAT PATIENTS ARE

EXPERIENCING, TRYING TO EVEN GET IN TO SEE ANYBODY. SO I KNOW THAT

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CONCERNS RAISED BY THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY.

THE REASON WHY I REALLY WANTED TO ASK ABOUT WHETHER THIS BILL CHANGED

THE -- THE WAY THAT THINGS ARE SET UP NOW WITH AN OVERSEEING DOC AND

I'M REASSURED BY THE FACT THAT FOR RIGHT NOW ANYWAY, THAT THAT IS STILL THE

-- THE CURRENT SITUATION, BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE AMOUNT OF

TRAINING THAT EACH MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL HAS RECEIVED FROM PHYSICIAN, TO

NURSE PRACTITIONER, TO PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT AND WE WANT TO ASSURE THAT

IN ADDITION TO PROVIDING EXCESS -- ACCESS TO CARE, WE ALSO WANT TO

MAINTAIN A HIGH-QUALITY OF CARE AND I THINK THAT THIS BILL STRIKES THAT

APPROPRIATE BALANCE AND I'M VERY PLEASED TO SUPPORT IT. THANK YOU

VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

232

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE CLERK WILL RECORD

THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. MCDONALD TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. MCDONALD: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I WANT

TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR THIS LEGISLATION. YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING. I

STILL PRACTICE PHARMACY SO I SEE A LOT OF PATIENTS, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT

IF I ASKED THE MAJORITY OF THEM WHO'S YOUR PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER MANY

OF THEM DON'T. THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THEM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. THIS IS A

VERY SIMPLE PIECE OF LEGISLATION. I COMMEND MY COLLEAGUES FOR

CLARIFYING SOME OF THE CONCERNS, BUT IT ALSO SPEAKS TO ONE OF THE LARGER

ISSUES. WE DO HAVE A VERY GOOD JOB OF BUILDING A LOT OF SILENCE IN THIS

STATE WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH CARE AND THAT'S UNDERSTANDABLE, EVERYONE

HAS WORKED HARD TO EARNED A DEGREE FOR WHATEVER IT MAY BE WHETHER IT'S

PHYSICIAN, NURSE PRACTITIONER, PSYCHIATRIST, WHATEVER IT MAY BE. BUT AT

THE END OF THE DAY I JUST INVITE YOU TO COME OVER SOME NIGHT, LIKE MANY

OF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE DONE, TO GO VISIT THE ALBANY MED ER OR ST.

PETERS ER. THE TWO LONGEST WAIT TIMES IN THE STATE IF YOU GO THERE.

NOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE THAT ARE THERE FOR AN EMERGENT SITUATION.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T FEEL WELL

AND THEY NEED TO SEE SOMEBODY. HAVING A PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER WILL

NOT SOLVE ALL THOSE PROBLEMS, BUT IT'S ANOTHER VALUABLE TOOL TO THIS

SOLUTION AND I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND AS WE GO FORWARD AS

WE WORK WITH OUR COLLEAGUES AND WE WORK WITH THE EDUCATION

233

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DEPARTMENT BECAUSE I KNOW IT'S VERY DIFFICULT DEALING WITH ALL THE TURF

ISSUES THAT COME ABOUT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY OUR MAIN PRIORITY IS

PROTECTING AND CARING FOR THE PUBLIC. THEREFORE, I SUPPORT THIS

LEGISLATION. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MCDONALD IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 18, RULES REPORT NO. 326, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08333-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 326, BORES, GLICK, EPSTEIN, SHIMSKY, LEVENBERG, PAULIN,

SIMON, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, MEEKS. AN ACT TO AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW,

IN RELATION TO DEFINING PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS AND REQUIRING THE

DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES TO CERTIFY THE TECHNOLOGICAL

VIABILITY OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS AND TO ESTABLISH REQUIREMENTS

RELATED TO THE SALE OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MR. BORES.

MR. BORES: CERTAINLY. MR. SPEAKER, THIS BILL

DIRECTS THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES TO DO TWO THINGS.

FIRST, IT MUST WITHIN 180 DAYS OF ITS EFFECTIVE DATE INVESTIGATE THE

VIABILITY OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS AND SECOND, IF IT FINDS THAT THEY ARE

VIABLE, IT MUST ESTABLISH CRITERIA FOR TESTING THE GUNS AND THEN MAINTAIN

A LIST OF SUCH GUNS.

234

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. MORINELLO.

MR. MORINELLO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL

THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BORES, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. BORES: IT WOULD BE MY HONOR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BORES YIELDS, SIR.

MR. MORINELLO: ARE THERE CURRENTLY ANY

HANDGUN MANUFACTURERS IN NEW YORK STATE?

MR. BORES: ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT PERSONALIZED

HANDGUNS OR HANDGUNS IN GENERAL?

MR. MORINELLO: HANDGUNS IN GENERAL.

MR. BORES: YES, THERE ARE.

MR. MORINELLO: ALL RIGHT, AND WHICH ONE IS IT,

PLEASE?

MR. BORES: THREE THAT COME TO MIND, DAN WESSON

WHICH IS BASED IN NORWICH, NEW YORK MADE ABOUT 7,000 1911 STYLE

PISTOLS IN 2022, THE MOST RECENT YEAR I HAVE DATA. ORISKANY ARMS

BASED IN ORISKANY, MADE 441, ALLEN ARMS TACTICAL IN NEWARK VALLEY,

THEY MADE 39 PISTOLS.

MR. MORINELLO: THANK YOU. HAVE ANY OF THESE

COMPANIES BEEN CONTACTED AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE TECHNOLOGY

NECESSARY FOR THE PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS HAS BEEN PERFECTED?

MR. BORES: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THOSE THREE

COMPANIES. I HAVE SPOKEN TO MANUFACTURERS OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS,

235

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THEY'RE JUST IN OTHER STATES.

MR. MORINELLO: AND WHAT HAS THE RESULTS OF

THOSE CONVERSATIONS BEEN?

MR. BORES: SO ONE OF THEM IS SELLING DIRECT TO

CONSUMERS IN ALL 50 STATES INCLUDING NEW YORK AND HAS PURCHASES

THEREOF. ANOTHER ONE HAS BEEN SELLING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT

ORGANIZATIONS SPECIFICALLY AND HAS HAD I BELIEVE SIX LAW ENFORCEMENT

ORGANIZATIONS TEST OUT THESE WEAPONS BASED IN KANSAS, TEXAS AND A FEW

OTHER STATES.

MR. MORINELLO: AND WHAT HAS BEEN THE

EXPERIENCE? LET ME REPHRASE THAT. HAVE THEY EXPERIENCED ANY

DIFFICULTIES WITH THE UTILIZATION OF THAT PARTICULAR PERSONALIZED

HANDGUN?

MR. BORES: I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY DIFFICULTIES THAT

HAVE ARISEN. THOUGH I'M SURE LIKE ANY TECHNOLOGY, THAT'S WHY IT'S

IMPORTANT TO TEST.

MR. MORINELLO: THANK YOU. HOW DOES THE BILL

ENVISION THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL SERVICES ACCOMPLISH THIS TASK?

MR. BORES: LARGELY THAT'S UP TO THE DIVISION, THEY

ARE THE EXPERTS IN GATHERING THESE STATISTICS AND IN DOING THESE TESTS AND

SO WE LEAVE THEM A LARGE AMOUNT OF DISCRETION IN COMING UP WITH THOSE

CRITERIA.

MR. MORINELLO: DOES THE BILL HAVE ANY FINANCIAL

CONSIDERATIONS NECESSARY FOR THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE TO CARRY

OUT THE TASK?

236

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BORES: NO. WE THINK THEY'LL BE MINIMAL IF

ANY COST IN DOING THIS. THEY ALREADY HAVE THE EMPLOYEES AND STAFF TO

CARRY IT OUT.

MR. MORINELLO: OKAY. THAT'S IT. THANK YOU.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MR.

MORINELLO.

MR. MORINELLO: I JUST DID A QUICK SEARCH WHILE I

WAS WAITING TO DEBATE THIS BILL REGARDING THE RELIABILITY OF PERSONALIZED

HANDGUNS AND WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT AT THIS POINT THE -- THEY HAVE NOT

BEEN PERFECTED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN BECOME RELIABLE. I BELIEVE

THAT WE ARE PREMATURE ON THIS AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD BE WASTING

VALUABLE RESOURCES WITH THE BUREAU OF DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE

WITH ALL THE ADDITIONAL DUTIES THEY HAVE AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT, TO PUT

THIS UPON THEM TO ADD THIS TO THEIR LIST. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK

YOU, MR. BORES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. DIPIETRO.

MR. DIPIETRO: ON THE BILL, SIR. I JUST WANTED TO

REITERATE WHAT MY COLLEAGUE SAID THAT IN TALKING WITH PEOPLE IN THIS

INDUSTRY THAT THE TECHNOLOGY IS SO FAR NOT ADVANCE -- ADVANCED, SO TO

SPEAK, THAT IT'S JUST COMING OUT THAT TO PUT ANY KIND OF REQUIREMENTS AS

OF TODAY, WITHIN THREE MONTHS OR ONE YEAR THEY COULD ALL BE CHANGED.

SO WE'RE A LITTLE PREMATURE ON THIS AND WE NEED TO SEE WHERE THIS

TECHNOLOGY GOES. SO I JUST WANTED TO JUST MAKE MY THOUGHTS AND LET

YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS VERY CLOSELY.

237

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SO THANK YOU, SIR.

MS. BYRNES: KNOCK, KNOCK.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. BYRNES.

MS. BYRNES: THANK YOU. I WAS WORRIED YOU DIDN'T

SEE ME.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: JUST TRYING TO CATCH

UP WITH MYSELF, MS. BYRNES. GO AHEAD.

MS. BYRNES: ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREE. JUST ON

THE BILL. THE ONLY THING I WANT TO SAY IS WHILE I WILL BE VOTING NO, AND I

VEHEMENTLY OPPOSE IT, THAT WHEN IT COMES TO DOING ANY TYPE OF

RESEARCHING AND THE TECHNOLOGY, OR HOW EVEN POTENTIALLY THIS COULD BE

DONE IN THE FUTURE, I THINK SOMETHING THAT IF -- IF YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS,

AND APPARENTLY YOU'RE GOING TO, SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO, AND THE

STATE POLICE OR DCJS, WHOEVER IS DOING THE INVESTIGATION, WOULD HAVE

TO BE COGNIZANT OF IS THAT MANY HANDGUNS ARE CO-OWNED. THERE IS

MORE THAN ONE OWNER. LIKE, IN MANY OCCASIONS, SPOUSES OWN THE SAME

GUN AND HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO POSSESS THE SAME GUN. AND IF SMART

TECHNOLOGY EVENTUALLY GETS TO A POINT WHERE IT CAN HANDLE A FINGERPRINT

FOR ONE PERSON, IS IT GOOD ENOUGH THAT IT WOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT FOR

MORE -- TWO OR MORE PEOPLE THAT MAY ALL BE LAWFUL OWNERS OF THAT SAME

HANDGUN? SO THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE IS ON THE RECORD SO THAT IF

IT IS DONE, IT'S DONE PROPERLY.

THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MS.

BYRNES.

238

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS -- THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT

IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED. THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT CAN VOTE YES

ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MS. SOLAGES.

MS. SOLAGES: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THE

MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THOSE WHO

WISH TO VOTE AGAINST THE MEASURE CAN DO SO NOW AT THEIR DESK.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. BORES TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. BORES: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS IS THE

RARE GUN BILL THAT I THINK EVERYONE CAN SUPPORT; IN FACT, THE NRA AND

THE NSSF HAD SAID THAT THEY DO NOT OPPOSE BILLS THAT HAVE THE

GOVERNMENT RESEARCHING THIS TECHNOLOGY AS LONG AS THERE ARE NO

MANDATES, AND THERE ARE NO MANDATES IN THIS BILL. PERSONALIZED

HANDGUNS HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE US SAFER IN AT LEAST THREE WAYS: FIRST

OF ALL, THEY CUT DOWN ON GUN TRAFFICKING BECAUSE A STOLEN GUN THAT IS A

239

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SMART GUN CANNOT BE USED IN ANY ADDITIONAL CRIMES. THERE WERE OVER

10,000 GUNS STOLEN JUST IN NEW YORK STATE FROM 2012 TO 2017.

SECOND, IT CUTS DOWN ON ACCIDENTS IN THE HOME. WE WERE TRAGICALLY

REMINDED OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ON SUNDAY WHEN A 14-YEAR-OLD AND

A 12-YEAR-OLD WERE PLAYING WITH A GUN IN BROOKLYN AND THE

14-YEAR-OLD SHOT AND KILLED HIS 12-YEAR-OLD COUSIN. IF THESE GUNS WERE

SMART GUNS, THAT CHILD WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. AND THIRD, THEY BENEFIT

ANYONE IN A CLOSE QUARTER ENCOUNTER WHERE THE LARGEST RISK WILL BE

TAKING THEIR GUN OFF OF THEM, SUCH AS COURT BAILIFFS OR PRISONER

TRANSPORT. MY GRANDFATHER WAS AN NYPD OFFICER, MY UNCLE IS A RETIRED

STATE TROOPER, ADMITTEDLY FROM JERSEY, AND MY COUSIN'S A PARAMUS PD

OFFICER AND THEY ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE FEAR OF THEIR SIDEARM BEING USED

AGAINST THEM. THE MOST RECENT DATA FROM 2013 SHOWED THAT TEN

PERCENT OF POLICE OFFICERS THAT WERE SHOT AND KILLED ON THE JOB WERE

SHOT WITH THEIR OWN HANDGUN, AND THAT INCLUDES THE FIRST FEMALE NYPD

OFFICER THAT WAS SHOT -- THAT WAS KILLED ON THE JOB.

SO THIS BILL JUST LAYS THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE STATE -- OR

FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ORGANIZATIONS TO PURCHASE THESE GUNS, THE SAME

WAY AT LEAST SIX ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES HAVE ACROSS KANSAS AND TEXAS.

AND WHILE I'VE HEARD THAT PERHAPS IT'S AHEAD OF THE CURVE, AND THAT WAS

TRUE FOR 25 YEARS, WE'RE NOW BEHIND IT. THESE GUNS ARE ON SALE IN THE

U.S. AS OF 2023, WHICH WASN'T TRUE IN PREVIOUS DEBATES BUT IS TRUE NOW,

AND IS WHY WE DESPERATELY NEED THIS BILL. AND TO MY GOOD COLLEAGUE'S

QUESTION ABOUT MAKING SURE THEY CAN WORK FOR MULTIPLE USERS, THAT

TECHNOLOGY ACTUALLY ALREADY EXISTS AND YOU CAN LOOK AT A DEMO OF

240

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MANY OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES THAT ALLOW YOU TO RECORD MULTIPLE PEOPLE'S

FINGERPRINTS.

I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: MR. BORES IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MS. SOLAGES.

MS. SOLAGES: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND WE

APPRECIATE OUR COLLEAGUES' PATIENCE AS WE CONTINUE OUR WORK. WE HAVE

A LIST OF BILLS THAT WE'RE GONNA GO THROUGH, STARTING WITH RULES REPORT

NO. 171 BY MS. SOLAGES; THEN RULES REPORT 213 BY MR. KIM; THEN

RULES REPORT 275 BY MR. SIMONE; THEN RULES REPORT 308 BY MS. FAHY;

THEN RULES REPORT 312 BY MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS; THEN WE'RE GONNA

MOVE ON TO RULES REPORT 333 BY MR. HEVESI; THEN RULES REPORT 344

BY MR. BURDICK; THEN WE MOVE ON TO RULE -- TO CALENDAR NO. 47 BY

MS. SIMONE AND -- I'M SORRY, MS. SIMON; AND THEN CALENDAR NO. 98 BY

MS. -- MS. PHEFFER AMATO.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: PAGE 10, RULES

REPORT NO. 171. ON A MOTION BY MS. -- THE CLERK WILL READ

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A07636-C, RULES

REPORT NO. 171, SOLAGES, SHRESTHA, DINOWITZ, SIMON, BLANKENBUSH,

REYES, L. ROSENTHAL, TAYLOR, SIMONE. AN ACT TO AMEND THE REAL

PROPERTY LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING THE HOMEOWNER PROTECTION

241

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PROGRAM.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: ON A MOTION BY

MS. SOLAGES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

AN EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MS. SOLAGES.

MS. SOLAGES: THANK YOU. THIS BILL WOULD

ESTABLISH AND CODIFY THE HOMEOWNER'S PROTECTION PROGRAM, HOPP, TO

PROVIDE FREE HOUSING COUNSEL AND LEGAL SERVICES TO HOMEOWNERS RELATED

TO HOMEOWNERSHIP RETENTION, SUCH AS PREVENTING FORECLOSURE AND DEED

THEFT.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: MS. SOLAGES, WILL

YOU YIELD?

MS. SOLAGES: YES.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: THE SPONSOR

YIELDS.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MS. SOLAGES. I SEE

THROUGHOUT THIS BILL IT REFERENCES THE PROVISION OF FREE SERVICES, FREE

LEGAL SERVICES, FREE HOUSING COUNSELING AND VARIOUS OTHER FREE SERVICES.

HOW MUCH DOES THIS PROGRAM COST?

MS. SOLAGES: SO, YOU KNOW, HOPP FOR -- FOR

YEARS HAS BEEN PROVIDING FREE LEGAL SERVICES TO HOMEOWNERS RELATED TO,

YOU KNOW, FORECLOSURE AND OTHER ISSUES, AND THE YEARS VARY DEPENDING

242

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ON THE NEED. AND SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THIS BUDGET CYCLE WE ALLOCATED

$40 MILLION FOR HOPP. AND SO, YOU KNOW, NEXT YEAR IT MIGHT BE

DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE NEED.

MR. GOODELL: OKAY, THANK YOU.

ON THE BILL, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: ON THE BILL, MR.

GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THIS -- THIS BILL IS AIMED AT

CONTINUING THE HOMEOWNERSHIP -- HOMEOWNER PROTECTION PROGRAM,

AND AS THE SPONSOR MENTIONED, IT PROVIDES FREE LEGAL SERVICES AND

COUNSELING TO HELP PEOPLE THAT ARE AT RISK OF LOSING THEIR HOME. AND

THAT WOULD INCLUDE HELPING HOMEOWNERS RESPOND TO MORTGAGE

FORECLOSURES WHEN THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING THEIR MORTGAGE;

MANDATORY SETTLEMENT CONFERENCES WHEN THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING THEIR

MORTGAGE ON TIME; FREE ESTATE PLANNING TO PRESUMABLY PROTECT THEIR

HOME; LEGAL SERVICE TO PREVENT AVOIDABLE FORECLOSURES AND

DISPLACEMENT; ASSISTANCE WITH RESOLVING PROPERTY TAX, UTILITY AND

BUILDING CODE VIOLATIONS, DEBTS AND LIENS.

SO IT'S -- I JUST FIND IT JUST A LITTLE BIT IRONIC, PERHAPS,

THAT THESE FREE SERVICES COSTS US 40 MILLION. SO WE'RE USING 40 MILLION

IN TAX DOLLARS SO THAT WE CAN PROVIDE FREE LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO

INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN CITED BY THEIR LOCAL MUNICIPALITY FOR

BUILDING CODE VIOLATIONS. AND THINK ABOUT THAT. WE'RE USING 40

MILLION TO DEFEND PEOPLE WHO ARE VIOLATING THE BUILDING CODE AND BEEN

CITED. WE USE 40 MILLION TO DEFEND THEM ON UTILITY DEBTS AND LIENS THAT

243

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ARE PICKED UP BY OUR UTILITY COMPANIES AND PASSED ON TO THE

RATEPAYERS. WE USE 40 MILLION TO DEFEND PEOPLE WHO AREN'T PAYING

THEIR MORTGAGES, WHICH MAKES IT HARDER FOR A BANK TO FORECLOSE AND THE

BANK PASSES ON THOSE ADDITIONAL COSTS TO US IN HIGHER INTEREST RATES.

AND SO WE'RE USING 40 MILLION TO HELP PEOPLE WHO AREN'T MAINTAINING

THEIR PROPERTY, THAT ARE A NUISANCE TO THEIR NEIGHBORS, WHO AREN'T PAYING

THEIR UTILITIES AND AREN'T PAYING THEIR MORTGAGES. THAT'S AN INTERESTING

USE OF MONEY.

I THINK EVERYBODY DESERVES LEGAL REPRESENTATION, BUT I

WOULD ALSO POINT OUT, BY THE WAY, ONE OF THE SAD THINGS ABOUT THIS BILL,

AND IT'S NOT A DIRECT COMPLAINT ABOUT THE BILL, BUT IT'S A REFLECTION OF

WHERE WE ARE IN NEW YORK STATE. PRIOR TO 2008, IF YOU DID A MORTGAGE

FORECLOSURE IT TOOK TYPICALLY SIX TO NINE MONTHS FOR A MORTGAGE

FORECLOSURE. AND I WAS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE AND SOMEONE WOULD COME

TO ME AND SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M THE DEFENDANT IN A MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE,

WHAT SHOULD I DO? SO I'D ASK A FEW SIMPLE QUESTIONS - THE FIRST

QUESTION, CAN YOU PAY THE MORTGAGE? CAN YOU CATCH IT UP, CAN YOU

KEEP IT CURRENT? IF THE ANSWER WAS NO, AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT -- NOT

BEING JUDGMENTAL, I MEAN, THEY MAY HAVE LOST A JOB OR WHATEVER-- IF

THE ANSWER IS NO THEN MY NEXT WOULD BE, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN

PAYING ON THE MORTGAGE? IF THEY'VE BEEN PAYING FOR SEVERAL YEARS ON

THE MORTGAGE, MY NEXT SUGGESTION TO THEM WOULD BE, SELL YOUR HOUSE

RIGHT AWAY. BECAUSE IF YOU SELL YOUR HOUSE RIGHT AWAY, YOU WILL MAKE

THE NET PROFIT OVER AND ABOVE PAYING THE MORTGAGE OFF. YOU WILL WALK

AWAY FROM THIS MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE WITH MONEY IN YOUR POCKET.

244

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WELL, THAT WAS BEFORE WE STARTED USING 40 MILLION TO DEFEND PEOPLE IN

MORTGAGE FORECLOSURES. NOW HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS. THEY COME IN, CAN

YOU PAY THE MORTGAGE? NO. CAN YOU CATCH IT UP? NO. WELL, HOW

MUCH -- HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE IN EQUITY, THEY'D TELL ME AND I'D SAY,

WELL, HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS. UNDER CURRENT NEW YORK LAW, YOU CAN

STOP PAYING YOUR MORTGAGE, YOU CAN STOP PAYING YOUR UTILITIES, YOU

CAN STOP MAINTAINING YOUR HOUSE. YOU CAN STOP PAYING FOR YOUR

HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE. THE BANK IS REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN YOUR

PROPERTY UNTIL THE FORECLOSURE IS COMPLETED, SO WHENEVER YOU NEED

ANYTHING FIXED, JUST CALL THE BANK. THE BANK WILL PAY YOUR TAXES,

BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT IT TO GO INTO FORECLOSURE. THE BANK WILL PAY

YOUR INSURANCE. AND YOU WILL TAKE AT LEAST THREE YEARS BEFORE YOU

ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEAVE. AND I'D SAY, TAKE ALL THE SAVINGS FOR THREE

YEARS THAT YOU WOULD OTHERWISE PAY ON YOUR MORTGAGE, PROPERTY TAXES,

HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR, AND COMPARE THAT

WITH YOUR HOME EQUITY. AND BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE STRUCTURE OUR

LAWS, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WALK AWAY THREE YEARS LATER WITH NOTHING AT

ALL, AS OPPOSED TO WALKING AWAY WITH CASH IN THEIR POCKET, AND THEY GOT

A FREE RIDE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BANK AND EVERYBODY ELSE FOR THREE

YEARS. THAT'S HOW SCREWED UP OUR SYSTEM IS. AND WE HELP -- HELP OUT

WITH THAT SCREWED-UP SYSTEM BY PAYING 40 MILLION TO PROVIDE THEM

WITH LAWYERS FOR FREE TO TELL THEM HOW TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM

AND LIVE FOR FREE FOR THREE YEARS AS THEY DESTROY THEIR EQUITY AND THEIR

CREDIT.

SO I WILL BE SUPPORTING THE PROGRAM BECAUSE

245

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

EVERYBODY NEEDS FREE LAWYERS, ESPECIALLY ALL MY LEGAL COLLEAGUES WHO

APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT WORKING FOR FREE, BUT ARE MORE THAN

HAPPY TO GIVE LEGAL ADVICE TO OTHERS. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 11, CALENDAR [SIC] NO. 213, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10142, CAL -- RULES

REPORT NO. 213, COMMITTEE ON RULES (KIM, DICKENS, TAYLOR, REYES,

HEVESI, ARDILA, DESTEFANO, RAGA, BURGOS). AN ACT TO AMEND THE ELDER

LAW, IN RELATION TO SOCIAL MODEL ADULT DAY SERVICES PROGRAMS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: AN EXPLANATION

HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MR. KIM.

MR. KIM: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. THIS BILL WOULD

REQUIRE THE STATE OFFICE FOR AGING, SOFA, TO INSPECT NEW SOCIAL ADULT

DAY CARE PROGRAMS PRIOR TO OPERATION. IT WOULD REQUIRE EXISTING

PROGRAMS TO BE INSPECTED BY DECEMBER 31ST, 2029, AND REQUIRE EACH

SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM TO CONDUCT AN ANNUAL SELF-CERTIFICATION

PROGRAM BEGINNING JANUARY 1ST, 2030. IT WOULD REQUIRE ALL PROGRAMS

246

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TO BE INSPECTED NO LESS THAN ONCE EVERY FIVE YEARS, AND PROHIBITS A

PERSON OR ENTITY FROM IDENTIFYING OR MARKETING THEMSELVES AS

PROVIDING A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM UNLESS THEY MEET THE

REQUIREMENTS OF THIS BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: MR. KIM, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. KIM: YES.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: THE SPONSOR

YIELDS.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, MR. KIM. WHAT IS A

SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM?

MR. KIM: SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAMS ARE

PROGRAMS THAT'S ADMINISTERED THROUGH THE STATE OFFICE FOR AGING THAT

PROVIDES SOCIAL SERVICES, INCLUDING NUTRITION, BREAKFAST, LUNCH, AND

SOCIAL PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT THE DAY. SO THEY -- THEY FOCUS ON

SOCIALIZATION AND PERSONAL CARE AND NUTRITION.

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. THEY DON'T PROVIDE MEDICAL

CARE, DO THEY?

MR. KIM: THERE IS A SEPARATE CATEGORY OF

MEDICAL-BASED SOCIAL DAY CARE PROGRAMS, BUT THESE ARE SOCIAL ADULT DAY

CARE PROGRAMS WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEDICAL ONES.

MR. GOODELL: SO THESE ARE PROGRAMS GENERALLY

247

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OPERATED BY THE OFFICE FOR THE AGING TO HELP SENIOR CITIZENS GET

TOGETHER, HAVE A GOOD TIME, AND HAVE BREAKFAST, LUNCH AND --

MR. KIM: SO THE OFFICE FOR AGING DO NOT DIRECTLY

ADMINISTER THE PROGRAMS, THESE ARE CONTRACTED OUT ENTITIES; FOR-PROFITS,

NON-PROFITS, COUNTIES THAT ARE DIRECTLY SERVING OLDER ADULTS WHO ARE

MOSTLY MEDICAID QUALIFIED.

MR. GOODELL: DOES MEDICAID PAY FOR THESE

SERVICES?

MR. KIM: CORRECT. SO YOU HAVE TO BE, FIRST,

QUALIFIED FOR HOME CARE MEDICAID, AND THEN AS AN -- AS AN ADDITION, YOU

COULD ALSO GET SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAMS IN THESE FACILITIES.

MR. GOODELL: SO IF YOU QUAL -- I UNDERSTAND. SO

IF YOU QUALIFY FOR MEDICAID FOR HOME CARE, INSTEAD OF GETTING MEDICAID

SERVICES LIKE A PERSONAL CARE AIDE AT HOME, YOU COULD GET IT IN ONE OF

THESE ADULT SOCIAL DAY CARE PROGRAMS.

MR. KIM: NOT ALL, BUT YES, YOU CAN APPLY AND YOU

CAN BE APPROVED TO ATTEND A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM.

MR. GOODELL: ARE THERE SOCIAL DAY CARE PROGRAMS

THAT ARE RUN ENTIRELY WITH PRIVATE FUNDS? NO MEDICAID, NO STATE

FUNDING, JUST SIMPLY PRIVATE PAY.

MR. KIM: THEY'RE CERTAINLY ENTITLED TO TRY TO RUN A

BUSINESS PAID ON PRIVATE PAY, BUT I PERSONALLY, AS THE CHAIR OF THE

AGING COMMITTEE, HAVE NOT RUN INTO ONE AND I'M NOT AWARE OF ONE THAT

IS --

MR. GOODELL: YOU'RE TOO YOUNG.

248

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. KIM: -- 100 PERCENT PRIVATE PAY THAT'S A SOCIAL

ADULT DAY CARE.

MR. GOODELL: YOU'RE -- YOU'RE TOO YOUNG TO RUN

INTO ONE.

(LAUGHTER)

MR. KIM: I MEAN, IN MY ROLE AS THE CHAIR OF THE

COMMITTEE DOING HEARINGS AND SUCH THROUGHOUT THE STATE, WE HAVEN'T

-- WE HAVEN'T SEEN ONE.

MR. GOODELL: SO THEN MY QUESTION IS, IN THE

EVENT THERE ARE SOME, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVEN'T RUN INTO ANY, WOULD THIS

APPLY TO AN ENTIRELY PRIVATE-FUNDED SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM?

MR. KIM: IF YOU ARE 100 PERCENT PRIVATELY FUNDED

AND MARKET YOURSELF AS A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE, YES. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE

TO MARKET YOURSELF AS A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE AND YOU COULD BE A

FOR-PROFIT SENIOR CENTER OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF FACILITY THAT PROVIDES

SERVICES AND TAKE PRIVATE PAYMENTS, AND THOSE FACILITIES WOULD NOT BE

IMPACTED BY THIS BILL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU FOR THAT CLARIFICATION.

SIR, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: ON THE BILL.

MR. GOODELL: IT'S JUST A LITTLE INTERESTING THAT IF

YOU WANT TO RUN A PRIVATE PAY OPERATION, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE CAREFUL

WITH WHAT YOU CALL IT. BUT WITH THAT CLARIFICATION, I'M COMFORTABLE

SUPPORTING THIS BILL BECAUSE IN MY COUNTY I BELIEVE I HAVE SOME

PROGRAMS THAT ARE ENTIRELY PRIVATE PAY, AND THEY WOULD NOT WELCOME

249

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE INSPECTED BY THE STATE AND BE SUBJECTED TO THEIR

REGULATIONS. THE ONES THAT I'M AWARE OF THAT ARE ENTIRELY PRIVATE PAY,

THEY OBTAIN THEIR CLIENTELE BY PROVIDING EXEMPLARY SERVICE, AND THOSE

ARE THE CLIENTELE THAT DEMAND AND EXPECT EXEMPLARY SERVICE. AND, AS A

RESULT, THEY REALLY DON'T NEED TO BE INSPECTED BY THE STATE, THEY'RE

INSPECTED BY THEIR CLIENTELE AND THEIR CLIENTELE'S PARENTS OR SIBLINGS OR

KIDS.

SO WITH THAT CLARIFICATION, I WILL BE SUPPORTING THIS.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. KIM TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. KIM: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING ME

TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE ON THIS BILL. THIS IS LEGISLATION THAT MY STAFF AND

PROGRAM AND COUNSEL AND THE AGING COMMITTEE HAVE WORKED ON FOR

ALMOST A YEAR-AND-A-HALF. AFTER A SERIES OF TOWN HALLS AND OVERSIGHT

HEARING, INDUSTRY LEADERS AND COUNTLESS GOOD OPERATORS OF SOCIAL ADULT

DAY CARE CENTERS CAME IN AND TESTIFIED THAT THIS MARKET IS FAILING THEM

BECAUSE OF SO MANY -- SO MUCH FRAUD AND BAD OPERATORS THAT ARE

LITERALLY USING THESE FACILITIES AS MEDICAID EXCHANGE PROGRAMS AND

COMPETING IN A RACE TO THE BOTTOM WHERE THEY'RE LIQUIDATING MEDICAID

250

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DOLLARS TO -- TO CONSTITUENTS AND SENIORS AND TRYING TO BRIBE THEM INTO

THE FACILITIES, COMMITTING FRAUD AT THE WORST LEVEL. THIS IS A SOLUTION

WHERE WE'RE ALLOWING THE COMMISSIONER, THE STATE OFFICE FOR AGING

DIRECTOR TO COME IN, INSPECT AND CERTIFY AND ROOT OUT THE BAD OPERATORS

SO WE CAN SAVE THIS MARKET THAT DOES WONDERFUL THINGS FOR A POPULATION

THAT'S GROWING IN AGE AND IN A CRISIS MOMENT WHERE THEY DESERVE THE

NUTRITION, SOCIAL HOURS, AND -- AND JUST THE CONNECTIVITY WITH THE

COMMUNITY.

SO WITH THAT, I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR SUPPORTING

THIS BILL AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: MR. KIM IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 16, RULES REPORT NO. 275, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: SENATE NO. S00791-A, RULES REPORT

NO. 275, SENATOR COMRIE (SIMONE, SIMON, GLICK, LEE--A09885). AN

ACT TO AMEND THE NEW YORK STATE URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION

ACT, IN RELATION TO EXTENDING THE AMOUNT OF TIME BETWEEN NOTICE OF A

PROJECT AND A PUBLIC HEARING.

ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO: AN EXPLANATION

HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MR. SIMONE.

MR. SIMONE: YES, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE

[SIC]. THIS BILL INCREASES THE PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL

251

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CAPITAL PROJECTS FOR THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORP, UDC, FROM 10 TO

30 DAYS, AND INCREASES HEARING NOTICE REQUIREMENTS FOR A PROJECT FROM

10 TO 20 DAYS. THE INCREASED PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE FROM 10 TO 30 DAYS

FOR THE SALE OR LEASE OF LAND USE IMPROVEMENT IN INDUSTRIAL PROJECTS. IT

ALSO REQUIRES THAT THE SALE OR LEASE TO UDC BY A MUNICIPALITY HAVE A

PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE PUBLISHED AT LEAST 14 DAYS BEFORE THE HEARING,

AND REQUIRES THAT UDC PROVIDE ANY COMMUNITY BOARD WHERE THE

PROJECT IS LOCATED -- WHEN A PROJECT IS LOCATED IN NEW YORK CITY, FILE

THEIR NOTICE FOR A PUBLIC HEARING AT LEAST 14 DAYS BEFORE PUBLICATION.

WHY WE NEED THIS BILL? AS WE'VE CONTINUED TO

INCREASE FUNDING FOR UDC PROJECTS ACROSS THE STATE, WHICH I SUPPORT,

THE NEED FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY AND NOTIFICATION TO COMMUNITIES OF A

PROJECT BEING CONSIDERED IN THE AREA IS VERY IMPORTANT. INCREASED

NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARINGS WILL ALLOW FOR AFFECTED PARTIES TO ACTUALLY

LEARN ABOUT THE HEARING AND PROJECT TO ENABLE MEANINGFUL PARTICIPATION.

OFTEN, WE HEAR COMPLAINTS FROM COMMUNITY BOARDS AND LOCAL FOLKS

THAT THEY GET THE NOTICE TOO LATE, THAT NO ONE -- WE GO TO THESE HEARINGS

AND NO ONE'S IN ATTENDANCE AND BIG PROJECTS ARE APPROVED OR DONE IN

SECRET BY THE CITY. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE AS WE APPROVE FUTURE

PROJECTS ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING, STATE PROJECTS IN MY DISTRICT, WHICH I

WELCOME, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PUBLIC, WHO HAS THE BEST

OPINION ON WHAT BELONGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE A SAY BEFORE A

PROJECT IS APPROVED. THIS SIMPLY GIVES THEM A STRAIGHTFORWARD

(INAUDIBLE) MORE TIME TO WEIGH IN AND KNOW ALL THE DETAILS OF A PROJECT

PLAN.

252

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. RA.

MR. RA: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SIMONE, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. SIMONE: YES, I WILL YIELD FOR ED.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. RA: THANK YOU, MR. SIMONE. SO JUST A FEW

QUESTIONS. AS YOU'RE AWARE, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PRIOR PASSAGES OF

SIMILAR LEGISLATION IN THE HOUSE, AND PRIOR VETOES OF THAT LEGISLATION.

SO I'M WONDERING IF YOU CAN MAYBE ELABORATE ON THE REASONS WHY

PERHAPS THOSE OBJECTIONS, AND -- AND THEY WERE FROM THE FORMER

GOVERNOR, BUT WHY THOSE OBJECTIONS MAY BE EITHER ADDRESSED IN THIS

LEGISLATION OR MAY NO LONGER BE RELEVANT AS WE SEEK TO ADOPT THIS NOW.

MR. SIMONE: WE DO -- WE DO ADDRESS THE CONCERNS

FROM THE PRIOR VETO; NUMBER ONE, IT WAS THE FORMER GOVERNOR, WE

KNOW HOW MUCH HE LIKED COMMUNITY INPUT.

(LAUGHTER)

AND NOW WE HAVE A NEW GOVERNOR --

MR. RA: HE WAS A HUGE FAN OF LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, I

CAN TELL YOU.

MR. SIMONE: YEAH, A HUGE FAN OF LOCAL INPUT.

MR. RA: HUGE FAN.

MR. SIMONE: I WAS OFTEN THE TARGET OF THAT IN MY

PREVIOUS ROLES. BUT NUMBER TWO, WE COMPROMISED ON THE DAY NOTICE

253

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND REDUCED IT FROM I BELIEVE 30 TO 20, AND ALSO TO 14 WHICH IS LITERALLY

FOUR MORE DAYS THAN THE 10-DAY NOTICE, TO GIVE FOLKS A LITTLE MORE TIME

TO PREPARE FOR A HEARING SO THAT THEY KNOW THE DETAILS AND THEY'RE

PREPARED FOR INPUT ON A PROJECT THAT COULD AFFECT A LOCAL NEIGHBORHOOD

OR A HOMEOWNER, WHICH I KNOW BOTH PARTIES SUPPORT, THAT WE WANT TO

SUPPORT HOMEOWNERS' SAY WHEN A PROJECT WILL CHANGE A NEIGHBORHOOD.

MR. RA: OKAY. NOW, SO YOU MENTIONED THAT THE 10

TO 14, BUT AM I CORRECT -- SO THE -- THE WINDOW IN TERMS OF FROM THE

NOTICE TO THE HEARING DATE WOULD BE CURRENTLY 10 AND GOES TO 30?

MR. SIMONE: CORRECT, 20 MORE DAYS. AND, LOOK, IF

20 MORE DAYS IS THAT CONTROVERSIAL, MAYBE THE PROJECT DOESN'T BELONG OR

SHOULDN'T GO FORWARD IN GENERAL.

MR. RA: OKAY. AND THAT IS -- SO I ASSUME, RIGHT, IN

-- IN INTRODUCING THIS THAT YOU BELIEVE 10 DAYS DOES NOT GIVE AN

ADEQUATE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE COMMUNITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S -- WHAT'S

GOING ON.

MR. SIMONE: CORRECT.

MR. RA: AND THEN HAVE, I GUESS, AN OPPORTUNITY TO

ATTEND THE PUBLIC HEARING THAT'S GOING TO HELD.

MR. SIMONE: YEAH --

MR. RA: CORRECT?

MR. SIMONE: YES.

MR. RA: OKAY. AND THEN THE OTHER PIECE OF IT IS THE

ACTUAL NOTICE OF THE SALE, LEASE, GRANT OR CONVEYANCE OF LAND BY A

MUNICIPALITY TO THE CORPORATION AND THE PUBLIC HEARING FROM 10 TO 14

254

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BUSINESS DAYS.

MR. SIMONE: CORRECT.

MR. RA: SO THAT'S JUST FOUR ADDITIONAL BUSINESS DAYS,

THE OTHER ONE IS ACTUAL -- THE NOTICE BETWEEN -- THE NOTE -- NOTICE OF THE

PROJECT AND THE HEARING IS CALENDAR DAYS. OKAY. THANK YOU. SO I -- I

GUESS REALLY THE -- THE CRUX OF THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, THE PRIOR

OBJECTION BY, AGAIN, THE PRIOR GOVERNOR, BUT I THINK THE CONCERN THAT

CONTINUES TO BE RAISED IS DOES THIS EXTENSION OF THE PERIOD

UNNECESSARILY DELAY SOMETHING FROM MOVING FORWARD.

MR. SIMONE: I -- I BELIEVE IT DOES NOT. AND

CLEARLY, IF THAT ADDED FOUR DAYS OR ADDED 20 DAYS IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE

FOR THE COMMUNITY NOT TO GIVE THEM INPUT, THEN CLEARLY MAYBE THE

PROJECT DOESN'T BELONG THERE.

MR. RA: OKAY, THANK YOU. SO IN PARTICULAR, ONE OF

THE ISSUES I HAVE BEFORE ME THAT HAS BEEN RAISED IS THAT BY EXTENDING

THIS PERIOD, THIS, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE WHICH

-- WHICH IS COMING THROUGH THIS PROCESS WOULD BE UNNECESSARILY

DELAYED, ESPECIALLY FOR ECONOMICALLY-DISTRESSED COMMUNITIES IN THE

STATE THAT MIGHT BE IMPACTED BY THIS. CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT CONCERN?

MR. SIMONE: I ACTUALLY THINK THE DIFFERENCE IN TIME

WOULD NOT DO THAT. WE DISAGREE WITH THE PREVIOUS VETO MESSAGE FROM

THE PRIOR GOVERNOR BECAUSE WE JUST THINK THE COMMUNITY SHOULD HAVE

MORE TIME TO GIVE INPUT TO ANY LARGE PROJECT THAT WILL CHANGE THE

CHARACTER OF A NEIGHBORHOOD.

MR. RA: THANK YOU, MR. SIMONE.

255

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. RA: SO JUST QUICKLY, I -- WE HAVEN'T VOTED ON

THIS, OR SIMILAR LEGISLATION, IN A NUMBER OF YEARS. YOU KNOW, THE -- THE

ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE UDC ACT WAS PROVIDING THIS TYPE OF ASSISTANCE.

THERE ARE SOME EXTENSIONS OF -- OF THE NOTICE REQUIREMENTS AND THE

AMOUNT OF TIME THAT TAKES PLACE IN BETWEEN. YOU KNOW, THE PRIOR VETO,

DESPITE BEING FROM A -- FROM A PRIOR ADMINISTRATION, I THINK SOME OF THE

ISSUES DO HOLD TRUE IN TERMS OF IF WE WERE TO PROVIDE LONGER NOTICE

THERE HAS TO BE MORE TIME BEFORE A HEARING COULD BE HELD. CERTAINLY

THERE ARE GONNA BE PROJECTS THAT ARE MORE CONTROVERSIAL AND THERE'S

GONNA BE PROJECTS THAT ARE LESS CONTROVERSIAL, AND THOSE -- SOME OF

THOSE PROJECTS MIGHT BE DELAYED BY THE LONGER PERIOD OF TIME. THAT IS

THE REASON THAT THERE HAVE BEEN CONCERNS, AND -- AND I WOULD SAY A

SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF NO VOTES IN THE PAST WHEN WE LAST VOTED ON THIS

BILL BACK IN 2018.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. WOULD THE SPONSOR

YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SIMONE, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MR. SIMONE: YES, I YIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU. THESE NOTICE

256

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PROVISIONS, DO THEY -- OBVIOUSLY THEY APPLY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK,

BUT THEY ALSO APPLY OUTSIDE THE CITY OF NEW YORK, DON'T THEY?

MR. SIMONE: THEY DO.

MR. GOODELL: AND IT APPLIES TO BOTH DEVELOPMENT

AND REDEVELOPMENT PROJECTS?

MR. SIMONE: YES. THEY APPLY TO LAND USE -- SALE

OF LAND USE, IMPROVEMENT AND INDUSTRIAL PROJECTS, AND ALSO TO PROJECTS

LOCATED IN NEW YORK CITY TO FILE NOTICE.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE NEED

FOR A COMMUNITY TO HAVE INPUT ON A HUGE PROJECT, BUT NOT ALL THESE

PROJECTS ARE HUGE, RIGHT? I MEAN, SOMETIMES THEY'RE MUCH SMALLER.

MR. SIMONE: CORRECT. AND I STILL THINK WE SHOULD

GIVE AMPLE TIME FOR THE PUBLIC TO WEIGH IN. AND AS WE KNOW FROM THIS

GOVERNOR, SHE CHANGES HER MIND, SO SOMETIMES MAYBE THE PUBLIC WILL

ADVOCATE AND HAVE HER CHANGE HER MIND.

MR. GOODELL: NOW, THESE PROJECTS ARE OFTEN DONE

IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER ENTITIES, AREN'T THEY? FOR EXAMPLE, YOU

MIGHT HAVE THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION GRANT COUPLED WITH,

IN MY AREA, A WESTERN REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT GRANT, OR MAYBE STEDO

GRANT, AN IDA GRANT. THEY'RE ALL PUT TOGETHER, CORRECT?

MR. SIMONE: CORRECT.

MR. GOODELL: SO WHEN WE ADD THE TIME ON ONE,

AND IF THAT'S A CRITICAL COMPONENT THEN IT SLOWS THE ENTIRE PROJECT DOWN

FOR ALL OF THEM, ASSUMING THEY'RE ALL INTERACTIVE -- INTER -- INTERTWINED --

I KNEW THERE WAS A WORD OUT THERE SOMEWHERE -- INTERTWINED, CORRECT?

257

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. SIMONE: YES, BUT WE FEEL THE CHANGES AND THE

COMPROMISE IS NOT SO MUCH MORE TIME THAT IT WOULD CAUSE A SIGNIFICANT

DELAY.

MR. GOODELL: THOSE OTHER PROGRAMS ARE TYPICALLY

COBBLED TOGETHER, IF YOU WILL, TO PULL AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECT

OFF, WHETHER IT'S IDAS OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THERE'S HOUSING TRUST

FUND, DEPENDING ON THE NATURE OF THE PROJECT, STEDO, WHICH IS A

MAINLY SOUTHERN TIER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATION. DO THOSE

OTHER ORGANIZATIONS HAVE MANDATORY NOTICE PROVISIONS AND, IF SO, HOW

DO THOSE PROVISIONS DOVETAIL WITH THESE?

MR. SIMONE: THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY GERMANE TO THIS

BILL.

MR. GOODELL: WELL, IF -- IF THEIR NOTICES ARE

LONGER, THIS BILL DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE BECAUSE IT'S NOT GONNA

SLOW DOWN THEIR PROJECT. IF THEIR NOTICES ARE SHORTER, THIS BILL WILL SLOW

DOWN ALL THEIR PROJECTS AS WELL, RIGHT?

MR. SIMONE: WELL, THIS IS SPECIFIC TO JUST UDC

PROJECTS.

MR. GOODELL: NO, I UNDERSTAND, BUT UDC AS

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, IS OFTEN INVOLVED WITH OTHER ENTITIES. DO YOU HAVE

ANY IDEA OF HOW THESE NOTICE PROVISIONS APPLY, IF AT ALL, IN COMPARISON

TO THE OTHER ENTITIES?

(PAUSE)

MR. SIMONE: THEY WOULD ACTUALLY STILL HAVE TO

FOLLOW UDC REQUIREMENTS, BUT NOT PART OF THIS BILL.

258

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. GOODELL: I SEE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I

APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS.

MR. SIMONE: THANK YOU.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. GOODELL: IT'S SOMETIMES A VERY COMPLICATED

PROCESS OF PULLING TOGETHER ALL THE DIFFERENT DIVERSE FUNDING STREAMS IN

ORDER TO MAKE AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECT MOVE FORWARD. AND I

THINK, AND I HOPE, THAT ALL OF US RECOGNIZE THAT THE FUTURE STRENGTH OF

OUR GREAT STATE DEPENDS ON SUCCESSFUL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS

THAT GIVE REAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE A FAMILY-SUSTAINING

WAGE AND COVER THEIR MORTGAGE AND BUILD THE COMMUNITY. AND SO WE

NEED TO BE VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT SLOWING DOWN PROJECTS, ESPECIALLY

WHEN THERE ARE MULTIPLE PLAYERS INVOLVED AND WE'RE STRUGGLING TO GET

THESE PROJECTS OFF THE GROUND, BUILT, HIRING PEOPLE AND BUILDING WEALTH

IN THE COMMUNITY.

AND WHILE I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE CONCERNS OF MY

COLLEAGUE ABOUT LARGE PROJECTS THAT MAY IMPACT THE COMMUNITY,

TYPICALLY -- TYPICALLY, NOT ALWAYS BUT TYPICALLY THOSE LARGE PROJECTS GET

A FAIR AMOUNT OF PRESS WHILE THEY'RE BEING DEVELOPED. AND IT'S PRETTY

HARD TO HIDE A LARGE PROJECT FROM MOST OF OUR COMMUNITIES BECAUSE

YOU HAVE DEVELOPERS ACQUIRING OPTIONS ON LAND, MEETING WITH IDAS,

WHICH ARE PUBLIC MEETINGS, MEETING WITH OTHER ENTITIES. THERE ARE ALSO

PUBLIC MEETINGS. AND SO WE JUST NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT EXTENDING

259

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE TIME FRAME BECAUSE IT SLOWS DOWN ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT

LONG-TERM ASPECTS OF OUR FUTURE, WHICH IS PROVIDING NEW JOB

OPPORTUNITIES FOR OUR FRIENDS, NEIGHBORS, CHILDREN AND OTHERS.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. IT'S SHOCKING TO

BELIEVE THAT I SUPPORT WHAT OUR GOVERNOR IN THE PAST HAS DONE WHEN HE

VETOED THIS FOR CREATING UNNECESSARY DELAYS, BUT I DO. SO FOR THOSE

REASONS, THE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED, BUT THOSE

WHO SUPPORT THE ADDITIONAL NOTICE SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE

FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. SOLAGES.

MS. SOLAGES: THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE

VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THOSE WHO WISH TO VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE CAN

DO SO AT THEIR DESK NOW.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, BOTH.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. SIMONE.

MR. SIMONE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN

260

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MY VOTE. LARGE-SCALE REDEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE

STATE CHANGE THE FACE OF OUR STATE AND, MOST SIGNIFICANTLY, OUR LOCAL

COMMUNITIES. UNDER CURRENT LAW, A PUBLIC HEARING MUST BE HELD

WITHIN 10 DAYS OF PUBLICATION OF NOTICE OF A REDEVELOPMENT PROJECT.

THE SHORT WINDOW ALLOWS FOR A HEARING TO OCCUR WITHOUT COMMUNITIES

BEING ABLE TO HEAR ABOUT IT, MUCH LESS PREPARE MEANINGFUL PUBLIC

PARTICIPATION THROUGH COMMENTS, TESTIMONY AND ALTERNATIVE PROPOSALS.

I SUPPORT NEW DEVELOPMENT IN OUR STATE. FROM

MOYNAHAN STATION IN MY DISTRICT TO UPSTATE REVITALIZATION, EDC

PROJECTS HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BOOST THE LIVABILITY OF OUR COMMUNITIES

AND THE HEALTH OF OUR LOCAL ECONOMIES. THE PROJECTS ARE OFTEN

IMPROVED BY LOCAL INPUT. LOCAL VOICES KNOW THEIR COMMUNITIES BEST,

AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERTISE MEANS BETTER

RESULTS IN THE LONG-TERM. THAT'S HAPPENING NOW WITH THE

REDEVELOPMENT OF PENN STATION. EXPANDING THE WINDOW FROM NOTICE TO

A PUBLIC HEARING FROM 10 DAYS TO 30 DAYS WILL HELP ENSURE OUR

COMMUNITIES ARE HEARD, AND MAJOR PROJECTS MOVE MORE SMOOTHLY

TOWARD SUCCESS. AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SIMONE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. BROWN TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. A. BROWN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I'M JUST

KIND OF STRUGGLING WITH THIS PARTICULAR BILL, I THINK THE INTENT IS VERY

GOOD. THE PROBLEM IS IT ACTUALLY DOES THE REVERSE. I'M INVOLVED WITH

ZONING, I ACTUALLY TEACH CLASSES TO LAW FIRMS ON ZONING PARTICULARLY.

261

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE REASON WHY THESE NOTICES ARE IN A VERY TIGHT WINDOW IS SPECIFICALLY

BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL OTHERWISE FORGET THAT THE EVENT IS GOING TO OCCUR,

WHETHER IT'S A ZONING, A SUBDIVISION, A PLANNING BOARD CASE. YOU CAN'T

DO IT TOO EARLY, YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN A CERTAIN WINDOW OF TIME OF THIS

PARTICULAR CASE.

THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH THIS PARTICULAR BILL IS IT WOULD

-- IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE IF THERE WERE ADDITIONAL MEANS OF

NOTIFICATION; IN OTHER WORDS, WHETHER IT'S A PLANNING BOARD CASE OR A

ZONING BOARD CASE, NOTICE IS GIVEN WITHIN A CERTAIN PARAMETER,

PERIMETER OF THE PROPERTY, WHETHER IT'S 200 FEET, 500 FEET, DEPENDS ON

WHAT IT IS. RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED, THEY'RE NOTIFIED AND THEY'RE AWARE.

IT HAS TO BE PUBLISHED IN A NEWSPAPER NOTIFYING PEOPLE OF THE PARTICULAR

EVENT, CERTAIN TIMES IT'S POSTED ON THE PROPERTY WHAT EXACTLY IS

HAPPENING. BUT THIS PARTICULAR BILL DOESN'T EXPAND THOSE PARAMETERS

ANY FURTHER. ALL IT DOES IS ALLOW PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY FORGET AND NOT SHOW

UP TO A MEETING, WHICH IS CONTRARY TO THE WHOLE REASON WHY THERE IS

THIS VERY TIGHT AND CLOSE TIME FRAME FOR ALL PUBLIC NOTICE OF THIS

PARTICULAR KIND.

SO WHILE I THINK THE INTENTION WAS GOOD, IT ACTUALLY

WILL HAVE THE TOTALLY REVERSE EFFECT, AND THAT'S WHY I OBVIOUSLY VOTED IN

THE NEGATIVE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BROWN IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

262

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 17, RULES REPORT NO. 308, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: SENATE NO. S01736-E, RULES REPORT

NO. 308, SENATOR KRUEGER (FAHY, JACKSON, DICKENS, THIELE, SEAWRIGHT,

BURDICK, SIMON, STECK, WOERNER, K. BROWN, CLARK, L. ROSENTHAL, OTIS,

EPSTEIN, DINOWITZ, MCDONALD, SIMONE, RAGA, PAULIN -- A03780-E).

AN ACT TO AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING NEW

CONSTRUCTION THAT INCLUDES DEDICATED OFF-STREET PARKING TO PROVIDE

ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING STATIONS AND ELECTRIC VEHICLE-READY PARKING

SPACES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. FAHY, AN

EXPLANATION IS REQUESTED.

MS. FAHY: CERTAINLY. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

THIS BILL SETS STANDARDS REGARDING EV, OR ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING FOR

NEW CONSTRUCTION OF -- WHICH INCLUDES THOSE CONSTRUCTION THAT HAS

DEDICATED OFF-STREET PARKING OR A GARAGE OR A DRIVEWAY OR PARKING LOT.

THEY VARY -- THE REQUIREMENTS VARY BASED ON THE DIFFERENT CLASSES OF

BUILDINGS FOR FAMILY HOMES VERSUS MULTI-UNIT VERSUS COMMERCIAL

PROPERTIES.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. DURSO.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. FAHY, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MS. FAHY: CERTAINLY.

263

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. FAHY YIELDS, SIR.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MS. FAHY. SO IF THIS BILL

WAS TO PASS, WHEN WOULD THIS LAW GO INTO EFFECT?

MS. FAHY: JUST ABOUT A YEAR FROM NOW, IN -- I THINK

RIGHT NOW IT SAYS APRIL 2025.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU SAY -- WELL, MY

FIRST QUESTION, ACTUALLY, WITH THAT IS, IS THIS FOR -- ONLY FOR NEW

COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS OR IS IT RESIDENTIAL, ALSO?

MS. FAHY: IT IS NEW -- ONLY FOR NEW, BUT IT IS NEW

FOR RESIDENTIAL AND CONSTRUCT -- AND COMMERCIAL.

MR. DURSO: SO FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL.

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IF THERE

IS ANY LANGUAGE IN THE BILL CONSTITUTES "NEW"? SO IN OTHER WORDS, IF I

REDO MY HOME AND I LEAVE ONE WALL UP, IN MY VILLAGE WHERE I LIVE IT IS

NOT CONSIDERED A NEW BUILD.

MS. FAHY: CORRECT, IT IS --

MR. DURSO: WOULD THAT -- WOULD THAT STILL APPLY?

MS. FAHY: THAT WOULD NOT APPLY, YOU ARE CORRECT.

AN ADDITION IS NOT CONSIDERED NEW CONSTRUCTION, OR ANY TYPE OF CAPITAL

IMPROVEMENT ON A CURRENT HOME OR COMMERCIAL PROPERTY, THAT DOES NOT

APPLY. IT IS ONLY, AGAIN, WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED NEW -- A NEW

STRUCTURE.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. SO EVEN IF THE ZONING CHANGES,

SO IF I CHANGE MY HOME INTO A TWO-FAMILY HOME, IT WILL NOT APPLY?

264

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: IF YOU CHANGE YOUR HOME, WHAT?

MR. DURSO: IF I WAS TO CHANGE MY RESIDENTIAL

HOME, A ONE-FAMILY HOME, INTO A TWO-FAMILY HOME OR A MULTI-FAMILY

DWELLING, WOULD THAT THEN APPLY?

MS. FAHY: I THINK THAT'S CONSIDERED A NEW ADDITION;

THAT WOULD NOT APPLY.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. SO IT'S, AGAIN, ONLY ON BRAND-

NEW CONSTRUCTION, ESSENTIALLY.

MS. FAHY: NEW CONSTRUCTION.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. AND CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE

RATIOS ARE?

MS. FAHY: SURE. ON A ONE- TO THREE-FAMILY HOME

WHERE THERE IS A GARAGE, DRIVEWAY OR PARKING LOT, IN OTHER WORDS, IF THAT

FAMILY HOME DOES NOT INCLUDE OFF-STREET TYPES OF PARKING, THAT WOULD

HAVE TO BE ONE EV PANEL PER -- PER PARKING OR PER DWELLING. IN OTHER

WORDS, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE THE CHARGER, IT ONLY REQUIRES THAT IT BE

EV-READY. ARE WE CLEAR ON THAT?

MR. DURSO: SO NOT -- IT DOESN'T REQUIRE A CHARGER,

IT HAS TO BE EV-READY. SO YOU'RE SAYING --

MS. FAHY: JUST HAVING --

MR. DURSO: -- HAVE THE WIRING.

MS. FAHY: RIGHT. SO FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU ARE

BUILDING A NEW HOME OR A -- A THREE-UNIT HOME AND YOU DO NOT HAVE AN

EV CAR, YOU JUST NEED TO MAKE SURE IT IS EV-READY SUCH -- THE PANEL IS

THERE IN THE PAVEMENT OR -- OR IN THE GARAGE FOR ONE TO THREE UNITS. IF IT

265

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IS A MULTI-UNIT RESIDENTIAL OR ABOVE THREE, THEN 100 PERCENT HAVE TO BE

EV-READY WITH 20 PERCENT OF THOSE ACTUALLY HAVING THE CHARGING

EQUIPMENT.

MR. DURSO: SO WHEN YOU SAY 20 PERCENT OF THOSE,

IT'S ACTUAL SPACES.

MS. FAHY: THE ACTUAL -- YES, THE ACTUAL CHARGER.

MR. DURSO: SO IF THERE'S 100 SPACES IN A PARKING

GARAGE, THERE HAS TO BE 20 THAT ARE EV-READY.

MS. FAHY: NO.

MR. DURSO: ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE THE CHARGING?

MS. FAHY: IF -- IF THERE ARE 20 SPACES, LET'S SAY

YOU'RE BUILDING A 20-UNIT BUILDING FOR -- WITH 20 SPACES, GARAGE OR

OFF-STREET PARKING, ALL HAVE TO BE EV-READY. THE PANEL HAS TO BE THERE

TO ADD A CHARGER, BUT 20 PERCENT OF THOSE, SO IN THIS CASE FOUR OF THEM,

WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE THE CHARGING UNIT EQUIPMENT.

MR. DURSO: OKAY.

MS. FAHY: SO FOUR -- FOUR OF THE 20, ESSENTIALLY.

MR. DURSO: SO IT'S GOING BY -- IT'S GOING BY THE

NUMBER OF SPACES OR NUMBER OF UNITS? BECAUSE AGAIN, YOU COULD HAVE

A NEW CONSTRUCTION COMMERCIAL BUILDING, RIGHT, THAT'S -- THAT HAS, LET'S

SAY 50 UNITS IN IT, BUT THEY COULD HAVE 100 SPOTS.

MS. FAHY: IF THERE'S A PARKING SPOT THAT'S DESIGNATED

FOR A SPECIFIC UNIT, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE METERED TO THAT UNIT, THE PANEL

WOULD HAVE TO BE. SO WHERE -- WHERE A SPOT IS DESIGNATED FOR A UNIT, IT

WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THAT EV-READY CAPABILITY.

266

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. DURSO: SO IF THERE'S TWO SPOTS PER UNIT, THEN

BOTH SPOTS?

MS. FAHY: HAVE TO BE EV-READY, BUT AGAIN, 20

PERCENT ON A MULTI-UNIT HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE A CHARGER, THE CHARGING

EQUIPMENT.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. SO -- AND I DON'T WANT TO GET

TOO NUANCED IN IT, BUT AGAIN, IF YOU'RE SAYING 20 PERCENT OF THEM HAVE

TO, SO IF THERE'S 100 SPOTS TOTAL, 50 UNITS, EVERYBODY GETS TWO SPOTS,

THEY JUST HAVE TO PICK 20 -- THE -- THE PERSON THAT'S BUILDING THE

BUILDING HAS TO PICK 20 SPOTS THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE EV CHARGING

STATIONS AT THEM. IT DOESN'T -- THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE ALL TOGETHER, IT JUST

COULD BE SPREAD OUT.

MS. FAHY: YEAH, IT HAS TO BE SPREAD OUT. RIGHT, 20

-- 20 PERCENT, AGAIN, WITH THE CHARGING. THE REST HAVE TO HAVE THE

PANELS --

MR. DURSO: RIGHT.

MS. FAHY: -- SO IT CAN BE EASILY ADDED WHICH SAVES

THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. WE HAVE TERRIFIC SUPPORT FROM

THE AUTOMOTIVE DEALERS WHO'VE SAID THEY NEED ALL THE INCENTIVES THEY

CAN GET FOR EVS BECAUSE OF -- ONCE -- ONCE A BUILDING IS ALREADY

CONSTRUCTED, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ADD IN THESE PANELS TO MAKE IT EV-

READY. IT'S ONLY A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS TO ADD IN THE PANEL ITSELF.

MR. DURSO: OKAY.

MS. FAHY: WHILE -- WHILE UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

MORE EXPENSIVE AFTERWARDS IF HAVE TO GO TEARING UP A DRIVEWAY OR

267

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

GOING INTO A GARAGE, ET CETERA, TO -- TO ADD IT AT -- SUBSEQUENT TO NEW

CONSTRUCTION.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. DO WE HAVE ANY FEEDBACK OR

ANYTHING FROM THE POWER COMPANIES IN THE AREAS THAT -- ARE THEY SAYING

THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THIS, THE GRID IS GOING TO BE

HANDLE IT, THAT THEY'RE PREPARED FOR ANY TYPE OF NEW BUILDS, WHERE --

WHEREVER IT IS?

MS. FAHY: AGAIN, THE STRONGEST SUPPORT WE'VE HAD

IS FROM THE AUTOMOTIVE DEALERS WHO KNOW THAT THIS IS HOLDING BACK THE

INDUSTRY. THE UTILITIES, AS BEST WE KNOW, HAVE BEEN SILENT ON THIS

BECAUSE THERE IS A WAIVER MECHANISM WHERE THERE IS INSUFFICIENT POWER

OR ANY TYPE OF HARDSHIP ON A LOCAL UTILITY PROVIDER. SO IF THERE'S SOME

SERIOUS LIMITATION, ALTHOUGH NOT -- NONE IS EXPECTED BECAUSE THIS IS THE

EQUIVALENT OF POWERING, YOU KNOW, A HOME OR LESS, DEPENDING ON THE

TYPE OF VEHICLE, SO IT -- IT EXEMPTS ANY TYPE OF PROBLEM. AGAIN, THERE

IS A HARDSHIP WAIVER.

MR. DURSO: AND -- AND WHAT IS REQUIRED TO RECEIVE

THAT HARDSHIP WAIVER, AGAIN?

MS. FAHY: YOU NEED TO SEEK THE WAIVER. THE

BUILDING OWNER WOULD JUST HAVE TO GO TO THE LOCAL DEPARTMENT OF

BUILDINGS, SHOW THE UNDUE HARDSHIP DUE TO A LOCAL UTILITY PROVIDER OR A

GEOGRAPHIC AREA THAT HAS SIGNIFICANT COMPLIANCE PROBLEMS.

MR. DURSO: SO IT -- IT COULD BE A GEOGRAPHIC AREA IF

THEY HAVE THAT ISSUE? AND WHO'S MAKING THAT DECISION, IS IT THE LOCAL

MUNICIPALITY OR THE STATE?

268

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: I -- I THINK IT'S THE LOCAL MUNI -- YEAH, IT'S

-- IT'S AN -- AN AGREEMENT WITH THE LOCAL, STATE, OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

ENTITY FOR PURPOSES OF -- OF PROVIDING THAT WAIVER, YEAH.

MR. DURSO: OKAY.

MS. FAHY: IT IS A LOCAL -- IT'S A LOCAL DEPARTMENT.

MR. DURSO: OKAY.

MS. FAHY: I -- I -- MY GUESS IS THE BUILDINGS

DEPARTMENT, WHOEVER YOU'RE GETTING YOUR BUILDING CODES FROM OR

BUILDING PERMITS FROM.

MR. DURSO: GOT IT. SO IT'S REALLY UP TO THE LOCAL

MUNICIPALITY AND THE LOCAL POWER AUTHORITY TO UNDERSTAND IF -- IF THERE'S

A PROBLEM TO BE ABLE TO GET THE POWER THERE, AND IF THE MUNICIPALITY

BELIEVES YOU AND TAKES YOUR HARDSHIP LETTER --

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. DURSO: -- THEY COULD SAY YOU DON'T NEED IT.

MS. FAHY: YES. AND WE HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF

EXEMPTION WITH AFFORDABLE HOUSING WHERE -- WHERE IT'S NOT PRACTICAL,

AGAIN, SIMILAR AGREEMENT.

MR. DURSO: WELL, THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT

QUESTION. SO IF, ONCE AGAIN, BECAUSE WE HAD THIS DEBATE DURING BUDGET

TIME AND NOW WE'RE SEEING IT COME TO FRUITION, SOME OF THE AFFORDABLE

HOUSING THAT'S GOING ON STATE LAND THAT, YOU KNOW, DOT-OWNED LAND,

STATE LAND. I ACTUALLY HAVE SOME NEAR MY DISTRICT THAT IS NOW PUTTING

UP AFFORDABLE HOUSING. WILL THEY BE REQUIRED TO HAVE EV STATIONS ON

THEIR PROPERTY?

269

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: NO. WE'RE --

MR. DURSO: WHY'S THAT?

MS. FAHY: THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS EXEMPT FROM

ALL REQUIREMENTS. I MEAN, WE'RE SEEING IT MORE, BUT THEY -- THEY ARE

EXEMPT.

MR. DURSO: IS THERE A REASON WHY THOSE UNITS ARE

EXEMPT? BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALL OBVIOUSLY AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THERE'S

A PERCENTAGE OF THEM THAT ARE. BUT THERE COULD BE, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE

BUILDING PROPERTY WITH 20,000 UNITS IN IT, LET'S SAY -- LET'S BE MORE

REALISTIC, 1,000 UNITS, AND A CERTAIN NUMBER OF THEM HAVE TO BE

LOW-COST. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THE ENTIRE PROPERTY DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE

EV CHARGING STATIONS IN IT? SO WE'RE GIVING THEM TAX BREAKS AND WE'RE

LETTING THEM DO WITHOUT THIS EXTRA COST? WHY IS THAT?

MS. FAHY: I THINK IT'S MOST LIKELY BECAUSE OF THE

DEBATE WE JUST HAVE GONE THROUGH IN THE FIVE YEARS WE'VE SPENT TRYING

TO EXPAND AFFORDABLE HOUSING, AND WE HAVE QUITE A HOUSING CRISIS AND

THIS IS A -- A WAIVER AT THIS TIME. BUT TRUTHFULLY, WE ASSUME MOST WILL

GO AHEAD AND PUT IN AT LEAST THE PANELS --

MR. DURSO: BUT --

MS. FAHY: -- BUT WE DIDN'T -- BUT THIS WAS AN

EXEMPTION JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THE -- GIVEN THE SEVERE SHORTAGE

WHERE, YOU KNOW, EVEN ADDING THOSE COUPLE OF HUNDRED DOLLARS CAN

MAKE OR BREAK --

MR. DURSO: I UNDERSTAND THAT --

MS. FAHY: -- A PROPOSAL.

270

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. DURSO: SO -- SO WE'RE SAYING -- WE'RE GIVING

THEM A WAIVER EVEN THOUGH THE ENTIRE 1,000-UNIT BUILDING IS NOT JUST

AFFORDABLE, IT'S ONLY A PERCENTAGE, CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: WE'RE NOT GIVING -- WE'RE NOT GIVING

THEM A WAIVER, THEY WOULD HAVE TO APPLY FOR THAT WAIVER.

MR. DURSO: NO -- BUT NO, NO, THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED

TO PUT IN EV STATIONS, CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED.

MR. DURSO: BUT -- BUT IF I WAS TO GO BUILD A NEW

HOME, IF I BOUGHT PROPERTY, RIGHT, BECAUSE WE NEED MORE HOUSING, IF I

WAS TO GO DO THAT, I'M REQUIRED TO PUT IN AN EV CHARGING STATION, BUT A

COMPANY THAT'S GETTING MILLION-DOLLAR CONTRACTS IS NOT?

MS. FAHY: THE AVERAGE NEW HOME IS IN THE

MULTI-HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. AGAIN, THIS IS

A FEW HUNDRED. I KNOW HERE IN ALBANY WHEN WE DO AFFORDABLE HOUSING

PROPOSALS, IT IS SOMETIMES AT THE MARGIN EVEN THOUGH WE ARE SEEING

THEM ADD IN THESE PANELS.

MR. DURSO: BUT WHAT ABOUT FOR SOMEONE WHO IS --

MS. FAHY: WE JUST HAD A PUBLIC HOUSING -- WE JUST

HAD A PUBLIC HOUSING BUILDING RE-LAUNCH AND COMPLETELY RENOVATED,

WHICH IS FULLY ELECTRIC HERE. SO WE ASSUME THEY WILL DO IT, WE -- THIS IS

JUST PER -- PER SOME OF THE EFFORTS, THIS WAS AN EXEMPTION GRANTED.

MR. DURSO: BUT WE -- WE CAN ASSUME THEY'RE

GONNA DO IT BUT THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED TO, EVERYBODY ELSE IS. AND THAT

SEEMS TO BE ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH THIS BILL. SO AGAIN, WE NEED MORE

271

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HOUSING, WE'VE BEEN SAYING THAT IN THIS CHAMBER ALL YEAR. IF I WAS TO

GO BUY PROPERTY IN ALBANY, WATERTOWN OR LONG ISLAND AND BUILD A

HOUSE ON IT, I'M REQUIRED TO DO IT, BUT SOMEONE THAT'S GETTING STATE

MONEY AND TAX RELIEF TO BUILD MILLION-DOLLAR, BASICALLY HOMES AND

UNITS, WITH ONLY A CERTAIN PORTION OF THEM BEING FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING,

ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO IT. SO THEY GET TO KEEP MORE MONEY IN THEIR

POCKET, BUT IF I WANT TO GO BUILD A HOUSE FOR MYSELF I CAN'T; IS THAT WHAT

WE'RE SAYING WITH THIS?

MS. FAHY: EACH -- WELL, EACH OF THOSE AFFORDABLE

HOUSING UNITS ARE NOT WORTH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, IT'S --

MR. DURSO: NO, NO, NO. IT'S A MILLION DOLLAR -- IT'S

MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THE PROJECT WAS WHAT I'M SAYING. IF THERE'S 1,000

UNITS THAT ARE BEING BUILT ALONG 110 ON LONG ISLAND, OR WE'RE SAYING

RIGHT -- RIGHT OFF THE HIGHWAY HERE IN ALBANY, IT COSTS MILLIONS OF

DOLLARS. THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED TO PUT IN EV CHARGING STATIONS, BUT IF I

WANT TO GO BUILD A HOUSE AND RENT IT, BECAUSE WE NEED MORE HOUSING,

I'M REQUIRED TO DO IT.

MS. FAHY: YES. THOSE PROJECTS ARE DONE AT THE

MARGINS AND WE --

MR. DURSO: SO -- SO WE'RE GIVING THE CONTRACTORS

MORE MONEY.

MS. FAHY: AGAIN, WE JUST HAD A MAJOR PUBLIC

HOUSING UNIT RENOVATED HERE, IT'S GOING TO BE ALL ELECTRIC. SO WE ARE

SEEING IT, BUT OFTEN THAT TAKES A LOT OF TAX BREAKS. AND KEEP IN MIND,

EVEN FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION AND EVEN FOR PRIVATE OWNERS, THERE ARE ALL

272

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SORTS OF INCENTIVES OUT THERE, NYSERDA HAS A LAUNDRY LIST. SO RIGHT

NOW A LEVEL 2 CHARGER MAY COST YOU $800 TO GET THE ACTUAL CHARGER,

BUT EVEN THAT HAS LOTS OF INCENTIVES. SO YOU ARE SUBSIDIZED EVEN ON

THOSE PRIVATE ONES.

MR. DURSO: WHAT -- WHAT ABOUT THE COST FOR THE

ELECTRICIAN TO ACTUALLY RUN THE WIRES? THE ACTUAL -- AS YOU HAD SAID,

YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS REQUIRED TO PUT IN THE STATION, CORRECT, NOT IN ALL,

THROUGHOUT THIS BILL, NOT IN EVERY SITUATION, BUT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO

HAVE THE WIRING THERE, RIGHT?

MS. FAHY: I WOULD HOPE -- I WOULD HOPE IF YOU'RE

BUILDING A NEW HOME, YOU'D HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN ON SITE, AND I'M PRETTY

SURE MOST TOWNS WOULD REQUIRE THAT YOU HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN DOING THE

ELECTRIC WORK ON YOUR HOME.

MR. DURSO: OF COURSE.

MS. FAHY: SO HAVING --

MR. DURSO: BUT THEY HAVE TO BE PAID.

MS. FAHY: -- HAVING AN ELECTRICIAN ADD IN THOSE FEW

EXTRA MINUTES TO MAKE SURE A PANEL IS CONNECTED --

MR. DURSO: A FEW EXTRA MINUTES? HAVE YOU EVER

DONE ELECTRICAL WORK? HAVE YOU EVER RAN WIRES FOR SOMEONE --

MS. FAHY: I'M NOT A -- I'M NOT --

MR. DURSO: IT'S DEFINITELY NOT A FEW EXTRA MINUTES,

AND IT'S GOING TO COST HOMEOWNERS THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO RUN THESE

WIRES. IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE. SO -- SO MY QUESTION IS, ARE WE GIVING

HOMEOWNERS AND THE RESIDENTS OF NEW YORK STATE THE SAME TAX BREAKS

273

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THAT WE'RE GOING TO GIVE CONTRACTORS THAT THE STATE IS GIVING TAX BREAKS

TO TO BUILD HOUSES? THAT'S ALL I'M ASKING.

MS. FAHY: ON NEW CONSTRUCTION IT IS NOT GOING TO

BE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THE PANELS THEMSELVES CAN BE LAID. MOST

NEW CONSTRUCTION HAS AN ELECTRICIAN THERE, SO IT'S NOT AN ADDITIONAL

THOUSANDS. WHEN YOU HAVE TO GO BACK IN ON OLD CONSTRUCTION, YES, THAT

RUNS INTO THE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. BUT IF THOSE PANELS ARE PUT IN AT THE

FRONT END, IT IS -- IT'S PART OF THE CONSTRUCTION. SO IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO SAY

THAT THAT WOULD BE THOUSANDS OF EXTRA DOLLARS, YOU HAVE THE ELECTRICIAN

THERE ON SITE FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. SO AGAIN, LIKE WE SAID, THIS IS

FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL.

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. DURSO: NEW BUILDS ONLY, RIGHT? WE SAID WE

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. DURSO: -- WE SPOKE ABOUT THE UTILITY

COMPANIES, THEY MAY REQUIRE TO BE, YOU KNOW, INSTALL LARGER

TRANSFORMERS, BUT THERE IS A FORM THAT YOU CAN FILL OUT FOR A HARDSHIP IF

YOU CANNOT GET THE -- POSSIBLY GET THE POWER SOURCE THAT YOU NEED AT

THAT SPOT. I KNOW YOU HAD TALKED ABOUT THIS, THERE'S A MEMO OF SUPPORT

I KNOW FROM THE -- FROM WHO WAS IT, THE AUTOMOBILES ASSOCIATION

[SIC]. I MEAN, I HAVE NUMEROUS MEMOS OF OPPOSITION, I DON'T -- I DON'T

WANT TO BRING THEM UP, BUT, I MEAN, THERE'S MORE THAN ONE. AND ONCE

AGAIN, WE'RE HURTING RESIDENTIAL HOMEOWNERS BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING

274

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THEM THE SAME TAX BREAKS.

MS. FAHY: WE HAVE -- WE HAVE NUMEROUS SUPPORT

MEMOS AS WELL. AND AGAIN, WE KNOW WE ARE BEHIND ON MEETING SOME

OF OUR GOALS, WE KNOW WE'RE BEHIND. THERE'S A TREMENDOUS INTEREST IN

ELECTRIC VEHICLES, AND ONE OF THE SINGLE BIGGEST ISSUES HOLDING UP THE --

THE SALE IS THE LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE. SO GETTING THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IN,

ESPECIALLY DURING NEW CONSTRUCTION, WILL ACTUALLY BOOST THE SALES,

WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE SUCH STRONG SUPPORT THERE. WE KNOW THAT THIS IS

THE TIME TO BEGIN TO MAKE THESE CHANGES AS OPPOSED TO POST-

CONSTRUCTION. AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN DATA FROM MARYLAND AND

CALIFORNIA THAT IS SHOWING WHERE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS ALREADY IN PLACE,

IT ACTUALLY IS RETAINING -- OR RESULTING IN A 3.3 PERCENT INCREASE IN THE

OVERALL VALUE OF THE HOME OR THE SALE OF THE -- THE HOME WHERE IT'S

TURNED OVER. SO IT'S -- WE ARE SEEING, ACTUALLY, A GOOD RETURN ON THE

INVESTMENT FOR HAVING THIS INFRASTRUCTURE.

MR. DURSO: OKAY. THANK YOU, MS. FAHY.

MS. FAHY: THANK YOU.

MR. DURSO: I APPRECIATE YOU ANSWERING MY

QUESTIONS.

ON THE BILL, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. DURSO: SO I -- I UNDERSTAND, AND I -- AND I

APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR TAKING MY QUESTIONS -- WE'LL GET BACK TO IT LATER.

THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. PALMESANO.

275

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. PALMESANO: YES, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. FAHY, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MS. FAHY: CERTAINLY HAPPY TO.

MR. PALMESANO: THANK YOU, MS. FAHY. I HEARD

THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN MY COLLEAGUE, HE CERTAINLY TOUCHED ON A LOT

OF GOOD POINTS. I JUST KIND OF -- I MIGHT REPEAT ON SOME POINTS BUT I

HAVE SOME OTHERS AS WELL. FIRST THING, YOU DID SAY THAT THIS DOES NOT

APPLY TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING, CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: CORRECT.

MR. PALMESANO: WHY NOT?

MS. FAHY: THE FLEXIBILITY, JUST AS THERE'S FLEXIBILITY,

WE PUT FLEXIBILITY INTO THE BILL. THERE'S FLEXIBILITY WHERE YOU DON'T

HAVE OFF-STREET PARKING SO, YOU KNOW, WE -- WE CAN'T EXPECT IF -- AGAIN,

I MENTIONED A PUBLIC HOUSING UNIT THAT WAS JUST BUILT HERE. THERE'S

VERY FEW PARKING SPACES THERE. OFTEN WITH AFFORDABLE HOUSING,

ESPECIALLY IN OUR URBAN AREAS, THERE IS NO OFF-STREET PARKING. THERE IS --

THERE'S CERTAINLY RARELY GARAGE PARKING, SO IT WAS A FLEXIBILITY JUST AS IT

IS FOR ANY PRIVATE HOMEOWNER. IF YOU ARE BUILDING NEW CONSTRUCTION

AND NOT INCLUDING OFF-STREET PARKING THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT.

MR. PALMESANO: ISN'T PART OF IT KIND OF AN

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT IF IT'S NOT PART OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IT'S NOT

AFFORDABLE BECAUSE THESE MANDATES ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED -- ARE

GOING TO INCREASE THE COST FOR DEVELOPMENT, THAT'S GOING TO BE A COST

276

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INCREASE.

MS. FAHY: WE JUST FINISHED A, YOU KNOW,

MULTI-YEAR PACKAGE TO INCREASE AND ENCOURAGE AFFORDABLE HOUSING. I

THINK IT WAS TO GIVE THE PACKAGE THAT WE JUST ADOPTED IN THE BUDGET A

CHANCE, BUT CERTAINLY IT IS NOT AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT. THIS IS WHEN IT'S

AT THE AFFORDABLE END. PLUS KEEP IN MIND, ANY PRIVATE SECTOR

INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE GOING TO BE PUTTING IN THESE CHARGERS, THERE ARE ALL

SORTS OF INCENTIVE PACKAGES OUT THERE JUST AS WE HAVE A NUMBER OF

INCENTIVE PACKAGES AT THE FEDERAL AND STATE LEVEL OF TAX CREDITS TO BUY

ELECTRIC VEHICLES. AGAIN, I HAPPEN TO OWN ONE. THERE'S -- IT'S

EXPENSIVE AT THE FRONT END TO PUT IN SOME OF THIS, INCREDIBLY AFFORDABLE

AT THE BACK END BECAUSE OF -- BECAUSE YOU'RE DRIVING -- BECAUSE IT'S SO

INEXPENSIVE TO DRIVE AND OPERATE THESE VEHICLES. IT'S JUST THE UPFRONT

COSTS THAT ARE OFTEN -- THAT OFTEN HIT A -- A CONSUMER AT THE FRONT END OR

IN THIS CASE SOMEBODY BUILDING NEW CONSTRUCTION.

MR. PALMESANO: OKAY. AND JUST -- I PROBABLY

SHOULD'VE STARTED WITH THIS QUESTION. THIS IS ALL PART OF THE -- TO ADDRESS

THE MANDATES AND THE GOALS OF THE CLCPA, CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: IT'S NOT JUST TO ADDRESS THE GOALS WHICH I

THINK ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT. IT'S ALSO TO ADDRESS OUR ENVIRONMENT.

REMEMBER, WE HAVE ASTHMA RATES THAT ARE OFF THE CHARTS IN MANY AREAS,

PARTICULARLY IN OUR MOST CONGESTED AREAS. SO ELECTRIC VEHICLES NOT ONLY

DO THEY RUN QUIETLY, THEY RUN CLEANLY, SO IT'S ALSO A HEALTH-RELATED ISSUE.

MR. PALMESANO: WE CAN CERTAINLY HAVE A DEBATE

ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND HOW SAFE THEY ARE --

277

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: OH, I GUESS I WON'T GET YOU STARTED ON

THAT BILL.

MR. PALMESANO: WE'LL GET THERE SOON ENOUGH,

DON'T WORRY.

MS. FAHY: YEP.

MR. PALMESANO: MY COLLEAGUE WAS TALKING

ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE PRIVATE RESIDENCES AND YOU HAVE COMMERCIAL.

YOU SAID WITH COMMERCIAL (INAUDIBLE) BE THE MANDATE THERE IN PLACE,

THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE ACTUAL CHARGING IN PLACE THERE FOR THE

COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT, CORRECT?

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. PALMESANO: SO WITH THAT BEING THE CASE,

ISN'T THAT MANDATE A COSTLY MANDATE TO THE -- NOW THAT A BUSINESS WANTS

TO COME -- MIGHT WANT TO COME -- LET'S SAY THEY WANTED TO COME TO

NEW YORK, NOW THEY'RE MANDATED TO MEET THESE MANDATES, SO ISN'T THAT

A DISINCENTIVE FOR THEM TO INVEST AFTER A MANDATE WITH A HIGHER COST OF

THE CONSTRUCTION COST?

MS. FAHY: ACTUALLY, I THINK IT'S A GOOD BUSINESS

PRACTICE. IN FACT, IT'S A TREMENDOUSLY GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE, IT'S PART OF

MARKETING. I HEARD FROM ONE OF MY RURAL SCHOOL DISTRICTS EARLIER THIS

YEAR, ONE OF THE BEST THINGS THEY DID IS PUT IN SOME EV CHARGERS. IT

REALLY HELPED WITH STAFF WHO WERE ABLE TO CHARGE THEIR CAR DURING THE

DAY AND DRIVE THEM WITH ALMOST NO COST. SO IT'S ACTUALLY -- FOR ME IT'S A

-- IT'S A -- OR TO ME IT'S A BETTER BUSINESS PRACTICE AND KEEP IN MIND FOR

THE COMMERCIAL BUILDING, AGAIN, ONLY NEW CONSTRUCTION.

278

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. PALMESANO: I UNDERSTAND.

MS. FAHY: IT JUST MEANS IF THERE'S ONE TO TEN

PARKING SPACES, ONE HAS TO BE EV-READY. SO IN THAT CASE IT'S NOT A

HUNDRED PERCENT EV-READY, IT'S ONE OUT OF TEN. IF IT'S MORE THAN 11

PARKING SPACES AS A PART OF THAT COMMERCIAL BUILDING, IT'S 20 PERCENT.

THAT'S A -- MANY BUSINESSES, EXISTING BUSINESSES ARE DOING THAT NOW,

WE'RE JUST SAYING MAKE IT EV-READY WITH NEW CONSTRUCTION AS WELL.

TRUTHFULLY, WE HAVE NOT HAD PUSHBACK ON THAT ONE BECAUSE SO MANY

ARE DOING IT WITH EVEN EXISTING COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS.

MR. PALMESANO: AND SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT

EV-READY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WIRES, THE PLUGS, THE --

MS. FAHY: YES, IT'S THE PANEL --

MR. PALMESANO: -- THE ELECTRIC --

MS. FAHY: RIGHT. IT'S THE PANEL THAT GOES IN

UNDERGROUND TO -- TO ALLOW THAT CHARGER TO THEN BE ADDED WHERE

APPROPRIATE OR WHERE NEEDED DOWN THE ROAD. SO IF YOU'RE BUILDING A

NEW HOME, YOU DON'T HAVE AN EV CAR RIGHT NOW, GET THE PANEL IN. IT

WILL HELP YOU TO RESELL IF YOU EVER DECIDE TO, OR MAKE IT EASIER. SO IT'S

ANYWHERE FROM 1,000 -- WELL, SOME RATES ARE AS LOW AS $150 TO $1,000

TO GET THAT PANEL IN, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY MUCH CHEAPER THAN HAVING TO DO IT

AFTER CONSTRUCTION -- AFTER NEW CONSTRUCTION WHERE THEN THE COST CAN BE

AS -- AS HIGH AS $10,000 DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU ARE.

MR. PALMESANO: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE

FEASIBILITY OF THIS BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU TALKED TO THE AUTOMOBILE

DEALERS BUT YOU DIDN'T TALK TO ANY OF THE UTILITIES OR THE NYSEG. MUCH

279

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF THE ENERGY POLICY IN THE STATE HAS BEEN DONE WITHOUT REALLY

CONSULTING WITH THOSE THAT PROVIDE THE POWER. WOULDN'T IT BE WISE

BEFORE WE MANDATE THIS TO HAPPEN? SHOULDN'T THERE BE A FEASIBILITY

STUDY TO SEE IF IT CAN WORK, IF THE GRID CAN HANDLE IT? JUST LIKE WE

IGNORE -- WE DIDN'T DO IT WITH OUR SCHOOL BUS, MAKE IT A SCHOOL BUS

MANDATE, TOO.

MS. FAHY: DEFINITELY NOT, BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL I

TALKED TO UTILITY COMPANIES AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK, I CARRY THE HEAT BILL

SO I'M IN REGULAR TOUCH WITH THOSE UTILITY COMPANIES. WE HAVE A

WAIVER MECHANISM HERE SO WE'VE HAD NO PUSHBACK, I'VE HAD THEM IN

JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AND NO PUSHBACK WHATSOEVER BECAUSE THERE

IS A HARDSHIP WAIVER FROM LOCAL UTILITY PROVIDERS WHERE THERE ARE A

BURDEN OR A COMPLIANCE ISSUE, AND KEEP IN MIND THESE ARE FOR VEHICLES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A -- THERE'S -- WE HAVE NOT HEARD OF ANY PLACE THAT

WOULDN'T HAVE THIS TYPE OF POWER AVAILABLE NOW ESPECIALLY FOR NEW

CONSTRUCTION.

MR. PALMESANO: LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER

QUESTION. SO YOU GOT A NEW -- YOU GOT A NEW RESIDENT (INAUDIBLE)

CONSTRUCTION. THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO PUT

A CHARGING IN THE GARAGE, CORRECT, IF THEY DON'T HAVE OFF-STREET PARKING?

MS. FAHY: SURE.

MR. PALMESANO: SO NOW GM HAS TOLD PEOPLE,

OTHER ELECTRIC VEHICLE COMPANIES, OTHER COMPANIES HAVE TOLD PEOPLE TO

CHARGE 50 FEET AWAY FROM YOUR STRUCTURE. NOW HOW IS THAT WISE TO SAY

YOU GOT TO INSTALL A CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE IN YOUR GARAGE WHEN IT'S

280

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BEEN RECOMMENDED FROM A SAFETY PERSPECTIVE TO CHARGE WITHIN 50 FEET

AWAY FROM THE STRUCTURE? HOW IS THAT NOT A SAFETY CONCERN THAT'S NOT

BEING ADDRESSED BY THIS BILL?

MS. FAHY: SORRY. I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT

50 FEET AWAY. I THINK THE SPEAKER HAS ONE IN HIS GARAGE SO...

MR. PALMESANO: WELL, I'M NOT SAYING THEY DON'T

BUT THE RECOMMENDATION IS OUT THERE NOT TO BE -- TO BE FURTHER AWAY.

NOT -- IN SOME INSTANCES BE OUTSIDE OF THE PROPERTY STRUCTURE SO, AND

GM HAS SAID 50 FEET AWAY. SO THAT BEING SAID --

MS. FAHY: BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT WOULD BE

UP TO THE PROPERTY OWNER. I -- I HAVE A GARAGE, I CHARGE MY CAR OUTSIDE

MR. PALMESANO: WELL, YOU JUST SAID --

MS. FAHY: -- BECAUSE I -- I MEAN SO THAT'S UP TO THE

-- THAT'S UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL ON WHERE THEY WANT THE CHARGER. IF THERE'S

SOME GM RECOMMENDATION, I'VE NOT HEARD IT. BUT EITHER WAY, IF YOU

HAVE A DRIVEWAY -- IF YOU HAVE A GARAGE, PRESUMABLY YOU ALSO HAVE

SOMEWHAT OF A DRIVEWAY.

MR. PALMESANO: RIGHT, BUT WHERE -- WHERE DOES

THAT INFRASTRUCTURE GO IF IT'S NOT IN THE GARAGE? WHERE DOES IT GO IF IT'S

MS. FAHY: MINE PLUGS IN RIGHT IN MY DRIVEWAY.

MR. PALMESANO: SO THERE'S AN ELECTRIC -- ELECTRIC

PLUG RIGHT IN THE DRIVEWAY OUTSIDE 50 FEET AWAY FROM THE STRUCTURE?

MS. FAHY: I JUST PLUG IN TO MY -- TO MY EXISTING --

281

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. PALMESANO: WHAT ABOUT -- WHAT ABOUT

WE'VE SEEN THE FIRES WITH EVS, WE'VE OBVIOUSLY SEEN THEM WITH THE

SCOOTERS AND ELECTRIC BIKES DOWN IN THE CITY. WE KNOW THIS CAN

HAPPEN, WE KNOW THEY CAN CATCH ON FIRE. WHAT ABOUT -- IS THERE

ANYTHING IN THIS THAT WOULD REQUIRE FIRE SUPPRESSION AND FIRE HAZARDS TO

DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE, TOO, BECAUSE WE KNOW IT HAPPENS, WE KNOW IT WILL

CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.

MS. FAHY: YEAH, NOT -- NOT -- NOT WITH THE EV

CHARGER INFRASTRUCTURE. WE ARE NOT SEEING IT. I THINK THERE'S BEEN SOME

ISSUES IN CHINA, DIFFERENT INFRASTRUCTURES BEST I KNOW. WE -- WE ARE

DEFINITELY NOT SEEING THEM. AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE'D HAVE SUCH STRONG

SUPPORT IF -- IF WE DID. IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WERE WITH

SCOOTERS OR E -- E-BIKES.

MR. PALMESANO: SO WHEN YOU SAY IT'S DIFFERENT

BUT YOU DON'T THINK EVS CATCH ON FIRE, YOU DON'T THINK ELECTRIC SCHOOL

BUSES CAN CATCH ON FIRE? I MEAN I'VE SEEN VIDEOS --

MS. FAHY: THEY ARE NOT --

MR. PALMESANO: -- WHEN THEY CATCH ON FIRE THEY

BURN HOT AND THEY BURN LONG. SO CERTAINLY IF WE'RE GOING TO MANDATE

THIS IN THIS CONSTRUCTION, SHOULDN'T WE MAKE MANDATE TO (INAUDIBLE)

SUPPRESSION IN PLACE TO DEAL WITH IT AS WELL? SAME THING WITH OUR

SCHOOL BUSES WHICH THIS BODY COMPLETELY IGNORED, TOO.

MS. FAHY: I DON'T THINK WE'VE COMPLETELY IGNORED

THAT. WE KNOW SCHOOL BUSES, EVEN TRADITIONAL SCHOOL BUSES, CAN START

ON FIRE, BUT THE POINT IS WE DO NOT HAVE EVIDENCE OF THE CHARGER GOING

282

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ON FIRE. YES, THERE'S BEEN AN ISSUE WITH E-BIKES AND CERTAINLY WE'VE

ADDRESSED THAT IN THIS BODY AND I'VE SUPPORTED A NUMBER OF BILLS ON

THAT, BUT IT IS NOT ON -- NOT ON THE CHARGERS THEMSELVES --

MR. PALMESANO: BUT THE CHARGERS --

MS. FAHY: -- AND AGAIN, CERTAINLY MOST PEOPLE HAVE

I THINK AS PART OF ANY TYPE OF CODES ANYWAY, WE HAVE EXTINGUISHERS THAT

ARE REQUIRED. AGAIN, THAT IS GIVEN THE RARITY OF THAT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW,

THAT IS -- THAT IS NOT A REASON NOT TO PROMOTE AND SUPPORT THE GROWTH OF

EV CARS. OVERALL, I MEAN THERE'S A RISK THE MINUTE YOU PULL OUT THE

DRIVEWAY OF BEING HIT AS WELL. THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T DRIVE. IT

MEANS YOU JUST MINIMIZE YOUR RISK. WE ARE MINIMIZING THAT RISK

EVERYDAY WITH BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE.

MR. PALMESANO: WELL, I CAN THINK OF A NUMBER

OF REASONS WHY NOT TO PROMOTE EVS BUT THAT'S A WHOLE NOTHER

DISCUSSION, TOO. YOU DID MENTION WHEN THERE'S SO MANY INCENTIVES OUT

THERE AND NYSERDA, THERE'S YOU SAID LIKE A WHOLE LAUNDRY LIST OF

THEM, WHERE DOES THAT MONEY COME FROM? IT COMES FROM THE

RATEPAYERS, CORRECT, THROUGH SURCHARGES AND FEES ON THEIR -- ON UTILITY

BILLS, RIGHT?

MS. FAHY: WHICH A LOT OF THOSE HAVE BEEN FEDERAL

GRANTS IN RECENT YEARS AS WELL AS SOME STATE GRANTS. SO IT'S NOT THE

RATEPAYERS. A LOT OF THAT CAME THROUGH THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT

AND A WHOLE HOST OF -- I MEAN THERE'S A LOTS OF GRANTS OUT THERE TO --

MR. PALMESANO: BUT YOU SAID -- BUT YOU SAID

NYSERDA, NYSERDA'S MONEY COMES FROM THE RATEPAYER.

283

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: NYSERDA MONEY COMES FROM A WHOLE

HOST OF SOURCES --

MR. PALMESANO: INCLUDING THE RATEPAYER --

MS. FAHY: PRIMARILY IT'S COMING --

MR. PALMESANO: -- THE RATEPAYER.

MS. FAHY: NO, IT'S COMING FROM --

MR. PALMESANO: YES, IT IS.

MS. FAHY: -- THE FEDS AS WELL.

MR. PALMESANO: NO, IT'S NOT.

MS. FAHY: THE INCENTIVE PROGRAMS HAVE MOSTLY

BEEN THE FEDERAL -- THE INFLATION REDUCTION AND OTHERS -- BUT YES. DOES

NYSERDA GET MONEY FROM RATEPAYERS, SURE, BUT AGAIN --

MR. PALMESANO: ONE QUICK QUESTION OFF TOPIC.

YOU JUST SAID IT'S COME FROM THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, IT'S COMING

FROM --

MS. FAHY: BUT THAT WAS ONE EXAMPLE OF THE FEDERAL

GRANT -- YOU'RE INTERRUPTING ME.

MR. PALMESANO: ONE EXAMPLE, I MEAN EVERYONE

TALKS ABOUT THE ELECTRIC SCHOOL BUS -- I KNOW I'M GOING OFF (INAUDIBLE)

BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES. YOU SAID THAT EVERYONE

PROMOTES THE 500 MILLION IN THE BOND ACT FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE

PURCHASES, AND THEN THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT. DOREEN HARRIS AT THE

BUDGET HEARING STATED TO THE PUBLIC THAT IF WE -- WITH ALL THE FEDERAL

AND STATE MONEY THAT'S IN PLACE, HOW MANY ELECTRIC SCHOOL BUSES COULD

THAT PURCHASE. SHE STATED 3,000, BUT YET WE HAVE A FLEET OF NEARLY

284

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

47,000 SCHOOL BUSES SO THAT'S GOING TO BE BORNE BY THE PROPERTY

TAXPAYER, THAT'S GOING TO BE BORNE BY THE RATEPAYER SO NYSERDA'S

MONEY COMES THROUGH THE RATEPAYER AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH --

MS. FAHY: WE'RE NOT HERE TO TALK ABOUT EV BUSES

RIGHT NOW BUT I'D BE HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THOSE AND MY GUESS IS

SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE 3,000 CURRENTLY, AS YOU KNOW THAT'S A MULTI,

MULTI-YEAR EFFORT SO MAYBE IT'S 3,000 RIGHT NOW, IT'S EXPECTED TO BE

MUCH MORE BUT AGAIN, RIGHT NOW WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT EV CARS AND

HOW WE GET READY TO ASSIST THOSE CARS.

MR. PALMESANO: I UNDERSTAND.

MS. FAHY: WE KNOW THIS IS ALREADY UNDERWAY WITH

MOST NEW CONSTRUCTION LET ALONE EXISTING CONSTRUCTION. WE ARE JUST

MAKING SURE THAT IT IS THERE AND INCENTIVIZING IT AND REQUIRING IT EVEN

MORE. AND AGAIN, WE GO BACK TO THE AUTO DEALERS WHO RECOGNIZE AND

WANT TO SELL THESE VEHICLES AS THEY HAVE SAID, THEY NEED ALL THE

INCENTIVES THEY CAN GET.

MR. PALMESANO: ALL RIGHT. MS. FAHY, THANK YOU

MS. FAHY: THANK YOU.

MR. PALMESANO: -- FOR YOUR TIME.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. PALMESANO: AS THE SPONSOR MENTIONED, THIS

IS PART OF THE CLCPA WHICH WE PASSED IN 2019 WHICH HAS A NUMBER OF

MANDATES. IN MY OPINION, MY COLLEAGUES' OPINION, THIS IS GOING TO

285

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INCREASE HOUSING CONSTRUCTION COSTS, HOUSING COSTS FOR INDIVIDUALS. I

MEAN I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE THINGS

EV-READY BUT THOSE CHARGERS COST MORE MONEY, COST IS GOING TO

INCREASE COST FOR THE CONSTRUCTION SIDE, FOR THE RATEPAYER, FOR THE

BUSINESSES. WHEN WE CONTINUE TO SAY THAT THERE'S THIS LITANY OF

PROGRAMS OUT THERE FOR NYSERDA THAT COMES FROM THE RATEPAYER, WHY

AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS RESTRICTED FROM THIS, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY

RECOGNIZED BECAUSE THIS PLAN IS NOT AFFORDABLE. WE'D BE BETTER OFF TO

LET THE MARKET DICTATE THIS INSTEAD OF LETTING THE GOVERNMENT MANDATE IT.

IT'S JUST GOING TO CONTINUE TO INCREASE COSTS. I THINK THERE'S OTHER

PROBLEMS WITH THIS AND I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CLCPA, WHICH

THIS IS A PART OF, HAS TO DEAL WITH, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS IS ALL PART

OF A PLAN THAT WILL WORK TO DISMANTLE OUR EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE,

AFFORDABLE AND RELIABLE, TO A MARCH TO FULL ELECTRIFICATION, A MARCH TO

FULL ELECTRIFICATION FOR EVS, MARCH TO FULL ELECTRIFICATION FOR HOMES. IT'S

BASICALLY DESIGNED TO TAKE AWAY CONSUMER CHOICE ON HOW YOU HEAT

YOUR HOME, COOK YOUR FOOD, POWER YOUR VEHICLES AND POWER YOUR

BUILDINGS AND THE VEHICLES YOU DRIVE. IT WILL JEOPARDIZE THE RELIABILITY

OF THE GRID AND LEAD TO BLACKOUTS. NOTHING IN THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT

CONSULTING WITH THE UTILITIES AND NYISO TO MAKE SURE THE GRID CAN

HANDLE IT. THIS WHOLE ENERGY PLAN OF FULL ELECTRIFICATION IS MOVING

FORWARD WITHOUT TAKING A FEASIBILITY STUDY AND SEEING WHETHER THE GRID

CAN HANDLE IT. I UNDERSTAND, IF YOU ASK PEOPLE HEY, YOU WANT TO BE A

PART OF -- SUPPORT GREEN ENERGY, THEY'RE GOING TO SAY YES, BUT THEN YOU

ASK WILL YOU SPEND $10, 20, 50 OR MORE A MONTH ON UTILITY BILL, THEY'RE

286

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

GOING TO SAY NO. WHEN YOU TALK TO YOUR BUSINESSES, WHEN THEY TALK

ABOUT ENERGY SUPPLY, THEY'RE GOING TO ASK ABOUT TWO THINGS,

AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AND YOUR TIME IS UP.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES FOR THE PURPOSES OF A

ANNOUNCEMENT.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. WOULD YOU PLEASE CALL THE CODES COMMITTEE TO THE PARLOR

FOR --

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: CODES COMMITTEE IN

THE PARLOR. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN, IN THE PARLOR IMMEDIATELY, PLEASE.

(PAUSE)

SECOND 15.

MR. PALMESANO ON THE BILL THAT'S ON THE BOARD, PLEASE.

MR. PALMESANO: YES, AND THIS ALL -- EVERYTHING

I'M TALKING ABOUT HAS TO DO WITH THIS BILL AS THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT THE

CLCPA, THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT ELECTRIFICATION, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING

ABOUT WHEN I'M TALKING HERE ON MY TIME TONIGHT. AS WE MENTIONED,

AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY CONTINUE TO BE A CONCERN. WE TALKED ABOUT

THE AFFORDABILITY HERE. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT RELIABILITY OF ELECTRIC

VEHICLES, RANGE ISSUES, WE DIDN'T GET INTO THAT IN THIS DISCUSSION. WE'VE

-- JUST FOR THE RECORD, NO ONE ON THIS SIDE OF THE AISLE HAS EVER SAID WE

SHOULDN'T INVEST IN RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGY, RENEWABLE RESOURCES. WE

SHOULD AND WE ARE. AND IN FACT, IN NEW YORK STATE WE'VE REDUCED

EMISSIONS SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE PAST COUPLE DECADES. WE'VE REDUCED

287

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS SIGNIFICANTLY, (INAUDIBLE) EMISSIONS AND WE

CONTINUE TO DO SO. BUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN ARGUING FOR HERE IS A BALANCE,

FEASIBILITY, COMMONSENSE IN OUR ENERGY POLICY. I MEAN JUST LIKE YOUR

401K YOU DON'T PUT IT ALL IN STOCKS, CASH AND BONDS. WE SHOULD BALANCE

OUR ENERGY PORTFOLIO TO DO THE SAME THING. IT SHOULD BE FOR, YOU KNOW

-- SO YES. WHEN YOU LOOK AT ELECTRIFICATION, BUT NATURAL GAS SHOULD BE A

PART OF THAT PORTFOLIO, NUCLEAR SHOULD BE A PART OF THAT PORTFOLIO, WIND,

SOLAR AND HYDRO SHOULD BE A PART OF THAT PORTFOLIO. UPSTATE NEW YORK,

90 PERCENT OF OUR ENERGY IS CLEAN ENERGY. WE HAVE HYDRO, WE HAVE

NUCLEAR, WE HAVE WIND AND SOLAR. UNFORTUNATELY DOWNSTATE IS 90

PERCENT FOSSIL FUEL. WHEN I LOOK AT THE ENERGY POLICY OF THIS STATE

WHICH THIS IS A PART OF, THE CLCPA MANDATED THAT WE PASSED IN 2019,

THAT'S GOING UNDER THE TRAIN TRACKS AT OUR RESIDENTS, AT OUR BUSINESSES

THAT NO ONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT. WE HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY TAKEN AWAY

LOCAL CONTROL, LOCAL AUTHORITY ON IMPLEMENTING, ON SITING OF WIND AND

SOLAR, THEN IN THIS BUDGET WE DID THE SAME THING WITH TRANSMISSION AND

BATTERY STORAGE THAT'S (INAUDIBLE), THAT'S CONCERNING. ALSO THE SAME

TIME WE TOOK AWAY THE ASSESSMENT EVALUATION, AUTHORITY OF OUR

ASSESSORS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY WON'T ALLOW THEM TO DEAL WITH THE

ASSESSMENTS BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY GET MORE OF THIS SITED

TO BRING THE POWER DOWNSTATE THAT'S BEING SUBSIDIZED BY POWER PEOPLE

UPSTATE THROUGH HIGHER RATES.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER, TOO, IS 60 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE

IN NEW YORK STATE HEAT THEIR HOMES WITH NATURAL GAS, 40 PERCENT OF

OUR GENERATION COMES FROM NATURAL GAS. AND WE SAY WELL, YOU KNOW,

288

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WE'RE SAVING THE ENVIRONMENT, WE'RE SAVING OUR CLIMATE. ARE WE

REALLY, THOUGH, WHEN NEW YORK ONLY CONTRIBUTES 0.4 PERCENT OF TOTAL

GLOBAL EMISSIONS, BUT THEN THERE'S CHINA ACROSS THE WORLD WITH 30

PERCENT OF GLOBAL EMISSIONS, THEY HAVE 1,000 COAL PLANTS AND BUILDING

MORE EVERY WEEK. WE HAVE NO COAL PLANTS IN NEW YORK STATE. AND IF

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT INDIA AND RUSSIA, THAT'S 40 PERCENT OF GLOBAL

EMISSIONS AND WE'RE .4. AND WHAT ARE WE DOING? WE'RE MOVING FULL

SPEED AHEAD WITHOUT SOMETHING THAT'S PROVEN, WITHOUT A FEASIBILITY

STUDY. WE NEVER DID A TRUE COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS AND THE ESTIMATES OF

THIS THING ARE SIGNIFICANT, OVER 300+ BILLION DOLLARS JUST TO IMPLEMENT

IT. BUT THE OTHERS SAY THE BENEFITS OUTRATE THE RETURNS AND IT'S JUST NOT

THE CASE. I TALKED ABOUT IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN. I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE

TO HEAR IT BUT IT'S A FACT, IT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING, IT'S WHAT THIS BODY, WHAT

THE GOVERNOR IS DOING TO OUR RATEPAYERS. WHAT THE GOVERNOR, WHAT THIS

BODY IS DOING TO OUR SMALL BUSINESSES, OUR MANUFACTURERS, AND OUR

FARMERS. LET ALONE IF WE DO NOT CHANGE THE METHODOLOGY, PRICES AT THE

PUMP ARE GOING TO INCREASE 63 CENTS A GALLON AND HOME HEATING COSTS

AND NATURAL GAS ARE GOING TO INCREASE BY 79 PERCENT. THE PSC LAST YEAR

TO APPROVE FOR FUNDING DOLLARS THAT ARE GOING TO GO TO PAY FOR GREEN

PROGRAMS LIKE THIS, $43 BILLION IN FUTURE RATEPAYER INCREASES THEY SAID

TO PAY FOR THESE CLEAN, SO-CALLED CLEAN GREEN ENERGY MANDATES. THREE

STUDIES THAT WERE DONE BY THE CLIMATE ACTION COUNCIL PLAN, WHICH

CAME FROM THE CLCPA WHICH THIS BILL IS A PART OF, SAID JUST TO FULLY

ELECTRIFY YOUR HOME TO MEET THE ELECTRIFICATION MANDATE, THE GOAL, IT'S

GOING TO COST RESIDENTS $20- TO $50,000 TO CONVERT THEIR HOME FROM

289

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NATURAL GAS TO FULLY ELECTRIC. ON TOP OF THAT THE CONSUMER ENERGY

ALLIANCE DID ANOTHER STUDY WHICH SAID 35+ THOUSAND DOLLARS. ANOTHER

ORGANIZATION SAID 40- TO $50,000 FOR OLDER HOUSING STOCK. THEN WE

HAVE THE MOTHER OF ALL UNFUNDED MANDATES THE SCHOOL BUS -- THE EV

SCHOOL BUS MANDATE THAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE BEGINNING IN

2027.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. PALMESANO,

PLEASE TRY AND STAY WITH THE BILL ON THE BOARD. I UNDERSTAND THE

PURPOSES OF YOUR DISCUSSION, BUT IT IS THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS. COULD

YOU STAY ON THE BILL THAT'S ON THE BOARD, PLEASE?

MR. PALMESANO: SURE. I'LL DO MY BEST, MR.

SPEAKER. SO I CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON. I UNDERSTAND IT'S A LATE HOUR. I

SHOULD BUT I'LL TRY TO CUT IT BACK. WE JUST NEED TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE

ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT TO THE PUBLIC ON WHAT WE'RE DOING, WE'RE

NOT. I SEE IT. I SEE IT WITH CAP AND INVEST. THEY'RE GOING TO COME UP

WITH RECOMMENDATIONS THAT'S NOT GOING TO COME BACK TO THIS HOUSE FOR

A VOTE. THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WE'RE VOTING ON. WE SHOULD BE VOTING ON

ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO BE GOING DOWN THE PIPELINE ON OUR

RATEPAYERS, ON OUR BUSINESSES. SO WHETHER IT'S COST AFFORDABILITY OR

RELIABILITY, PROPERTY TAXES, LAND USE. I MEAN LAND USE FOR SOLAR AND

WIND. I MEAN TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF LAND ACRES JUST BEING TALKED FOR

ONE -- ONE MEGAWATT OF SOLAR REQUIRES EIGHT ACRES OF LAND. THE CLIMATE

ACTION COUNCIL PLAN CALLS FOR 60 GIGAWATTS OF SOLAR, THAT'S 480,000

ACRES OF LAND USE. AND THEN TALKING ABOUT THE PROPERTY TAXES BEING

TAKEN FROM OUR GENERATORS, $1.7 BILLION AND OUR UTILITIES GET PAID

290

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PROPERTY TAXES BASED WHEN THE GAS GOES THROUGH THE PIPES. IF THE GAS

ISN'T ALLOWED TO GO THROUGH THE PIPES, THEY'RE GOING TO DECOMMISSION

THOSE, THAT COST IS GOING TO SHIFTED, IT MAY DEPRECIATE THAT ASSET. OUR

ENERGY SECURITY, 80 PERCENT OF THE SOLAR IS CONTROLLED BY CHINA, 80

PERCENT OF THE RARE-EARTH MATERIALS IS CONTROLLED BY CHINA THROUGH THE

PROCESSING AND HOW DO THEY PROCESS? THEY USE COAL ENERGY. I TALKED

TIME AND TIME AGAIN ABOUT THE HUMAN RIGHTS, ENVIRONMENTAL AND FIRE

SAFETY STANDARDS. I COULD KEEP GOING ON AND ON, BUT OUT OF RESPECT TO

THE COMMENT OF THE SPEAKER I'LL STOP FROM THERE. BUT I SEE VERY BIG

PROBLEMS WITH THIS ENERGY PLAN, THIS ENERGY AGENDA THAT NO ONE EVER

WANTS TO TALK ABOUT, NO ONE WANTS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR. THEY SAY

HOW GREAT IT IS, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT THE PROBLEMATIC SIDE OF

THIS ISSUE. SO I WILL CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT IT, MAYBE NOT TONIGHT,

MAYBE TOMORROW. I DON'T KNOW. BUT THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I VOTE

NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WELL, IT'S NOT TIME TO

VOTE YET.

MR. BROWN.

MR. A. BROWN: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. FAHY, WILL YOU

YIELD?

MS. FAHY: YES, MR. SPEAKER.

MR. A. BROWN: THANK YOU, MADAM SPONSOR.

WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THIS BILL MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE CONSTRUCTION

291

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INDUSTRY BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING NEW PROJECTS?

MS. FAHY: YES.

MR. A. BROWN: THANK YOU, AND I AGREE AS WELL.

MY QUESTION WILL HAVE A LITTLE PREFACE SO THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND

WHERE I'M GOING WITH THIS. IT JUST SO HAPPENS AS WE SPEAK, I'M ACTUALLY

BUILDING OR RENOVATING A FAMILY COMPOUND FOR ONE OF THE WORLD'S

LARGEST OWNERS OF CHARGING STATIONS SO I'M VERY (INAUDIBLE) AWARE OF

HOW THIS WORKS AND PART OF THE PROJECT IS A MASSIVE GARAGE WITH

ELECTRIC CARS. AND I THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND THE COST OF THESE THINGS AND

HOW THIS GOES. SO MY FIRST QUESTION IS SINCE THIS HAS GREATLY TO DO WITH

THE BUILDING INDUSTRY, WHAT ARE THE OFFICE OF OFPC SAY OR (INAUDIBLE)

SAY WHEN WE PROPOSED THIS LEGISLATION, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CERTAINLY

THE FIRST STOP FOR ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT. WHAT WAS THEIR

OPINION?

MS. FAHY: WE -- WE DIDN'T HEAR FROM THEM. THIS

HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SITING. THIS IS NOT SITING. THIS IS --

MR. A. BROWN: NO, I APOLOGIZE.

MS. FAHY: ABOUT SITING --

MR. A. BROWN: I APOLOGIZE. THE OFFICE OF FIRE

PREVENTION AND CONTROL, THAT'S THE FIRST STOP FOR THIS BILL. YOU WOULDN'T

HAVE DONE ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE YOU WENT TO THEM BECAUSE I'LL EXPLAIN

TO YOU WHY, IF I MAY.

MS. FAHY: BUT JUST TO BE -- SORRY, JUST TO BE CLEAR.

THERE'S BEEN ALMOST NO INCIDENCES, IN FACT WE WERE EVEN CHECKING

ABOUT THIS 50 FOOT -- THE COMMENT THAT WAS MADE EARLIER ABOUT 50 FEET

292

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AWAY FROM A STRUCTURE. WE CAN'T FIND ANYTHING TO SUBSTANTIATE THAT. SO

FIRE PREVENTION IS ACTUALLY SO NEGLIGIBLE, I WAS JUST VISITING AN EV

MANUFACTURER HERE LOCALLY TO PRODUCE THESE CHARGING STRUCTURES.

NOTHING. IT'S A -- IT'S A MANUFACTURER CONNECTED THAT A PLANT IN

ROTTERDAM CONNECTED -- IN A WHOLE INDUSTRIAL PARK CONNECTED TO A

WHOLE HOST OF BUILDINGS, NOTHING ABOUT A FIRE CAME UP. SO CERTAINLY I

THINK WE WOULD HAVE HEARD FROM THE FIRE CONTROL OFFICE HAD THERE BEEN

A PROBLEM BUT THIS IS JUST -- YES, I KNOW THERE'S BEEN THE ISSUE WITH EV

BIKES. THAT GENERALLY ARE BATTERIES THAT ARE MADE IN CHINA, AND IT IS A

CERTAIN LEVEL OF BATTERY. WE'VE ADDRESSED THAT WITH OTHER LEGISLATION.

MR. A. BROWN: I APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONSE.

MS. FAHY: SURE.

MR. A. BROWN: MAYBE I DIDN'T STATE MY QUESTION

PROPERLY.

MS. FAHY: OKAY.

MR. A. BROWN: TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT THAN WHAT

YOU'RE REFERRING TO SO LET ME EXPLAIN AGAIN. WHEN A BUILDING IS -- IS

CONSTRUCTED, OR THE PROPOSITION OF A BUILDING TO BE CONSTRUCTED, A PLAN

IS DRAWN AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SUBMITTALS. YOU HAVE THE INITIAL

PLAN, WHETHER IT'S GOING TO GO FOR ZONING, SUBDIVISIONS, WHATEVER IT IS

BUT EVENTUALLY YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE A PERMIT. PART OF THAT PERMIT IS THE

MEPS ARE DRAWN; THE MECHANICAL, ELECTRIC, PLUMBING, HVAC, ALL HAS

TO BE PROPOSED. IN THIS CASE, LET'S SAY IT'S A BUILDING OF 20 UNITS, PART OF

THE PLAN IS THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A DRAWING OF THESE ELECTRICAL

COMPONENTS FOR THE CHARGING STATIONS THAT HAVE TO GO IN. THE

293

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

COMPOUND I'M DOING NOW, I HAD TO SUBMIT THROUGH THE EQUIVALENT OF

THE OFPC FOR APPROVAL. WHY? BECAUSE WHEN YOU EXCEED A CERTAIN

AMPERAGE IN A CERTAIN LOCATION, CERTAIN FIRE PREVENTION MEASURES AS FAR

AS BUILDING CODES ARE REQUIRED, EVEN IF THERE WAS NEVER A SINGLE FIRE.

SO THAT'S YOUR FIRST STOP FOR THIS BILL NO MATTER WHAT. NO ONE'S GOING

ANYWHERE ON A MULTI-STORY BUILDING OR A FIVE-UNIT BUILDING WITHOUT

THEM GIVING THEIR APPROVAL BECAUSE STATE CODE NOW HAS TO BE CHANGED.

SO HOW DO YOU GUYS DEAL WITH STATE CODE AS FAR AS REVAMPING THE

ENTIRE STATE CODE TO MEET THIS REQUIREMENT? WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE

BUILDING INDUSTRY OR WHO DID YOU CONSULT WITH AS FAR AS CHANGING STATE

CODE, BUILDING CODE?

MS. FAHY: I'VE HAD THIS BILL FOR MULTIPLE YEARS.

WE'RE ON AN E-PRINT WHICH IS RATHER UNUSUAL AS YOU KNOW AND HAVE MET

WITH ALL SORTS OF FOLKS IN TERMS OF -- WE WORK REGULARLY WITH THE

GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, WE HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING. WE DID DO

APPOINTMENTS A FEW YEARS AGO TO THE BUILDING CODES COUNCIL. IN FACT

TO -- ON OTHER ELECTRIC AND RENEWABLE ENERGY ISSUES SO NOT SURE -- NOT

SURE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR HERE, BUT JUST TO GO BACK TO YOUR EXAMPLE

OF 20 UNITS. KEEP IN MIND OF THE 20 UNITS, IT'S ONLY IF THEY COME WITH

OFF-STREET PARKING OR HAVE -- HAVE SOME TYPE OF OFF-STREET PARKING. SO

IN OTHER WORDS IF YOU'RE BUILDING A 20-UNIT CONDO WITH NO PARKING, IT'S

-- IT'S NOT RELEVANT HERE. AND THESE ARE ALSO -- THE UNITS ARE OUTSIDE, NOT

INSIDE, THE 20 UNITS UNLESS THERE'S A GARAGE. SO I GUESS I'M NOT SURE --

NOT SURE WHERE THE CONCERN -- WHERE YOU'RE GOING.

MR. A. BROWN: A TYPICAL PROJECT WHERE THERE'S

294

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INDOOR PARKING, THERE'S 20 UNITS, THEY'RE GOING TO REQUIRE A 2.5

CALCULATION. THERE'LL BE 50 CAR SPACES. WE UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY

SINGLE ONE WILL HAVE TO BE POWERED SINCE IT'S INDOOR. YOU HAVE TO GO

TO THE FIRE MARSHAL FOR APPROVAL, WHAT SIZE SPRINKLER HEADS AT WHAT

CAPACITY, BUT NOW OFPC IS GOING TO HAVE TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF THE

FIRE SPRINKLER SYSTEM BECAUSE -- LET ME JUST BACK UP TO EXPLAIN IT IN A

MUCH SIMPLER WAY. YOUR TYPICAL HOUSE. HOW MUCH AMPERAGE IS THERE

IN A NEW HOME CONSTRUCTION? THIS ONE 101 OF THIS BILL. WHAT'S THE

AMPERAGE OF YOUR TYPICAL NEW HOUSE CONSTRUCTION?

MS. FAHY: I HAVE A VERY OLD HOUSE SO MINE IS -- I

FORGET WHAT MINE IS. YOU KNOW, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME BECAUSE IF IT'S A

TRICK QUESTION. I HAVE AN OLD HOUSE, IT'S GOT LOW AMPERAGE. I HAVE 110

SO I PLUG IN AND IT TAKES A WHILE FOR MY CAR TO CHARGE. IS IT 240? IF IT'S

A TRICK QUESTION YOU CAN JUST HELP ME ANSWER IT THEN.

MR. A. BROWN: MADAM SPONSOR, I APPRECIATE THAT.

SO THE TYPICAL NEW HOUSE CONSTRUCTION IS 200 AMPS.

MS. FAHY: OKAY. I WAS CLOSE, 240.

MR. A. BROWN: THAT'S FINE. THE PANELS ARE A 200

AMP PANEL BUT THAT'S OKAY. THE TYPICAL CHARGING STATION POWER PACK,

HOW MANY AMPS ARE REQUIRED FOR THAT?

MS. FAHY: THE -- THE -- THE LEVEL 2 IS 240. AGAIN

THE --

MR. A. BROWN: HOW MANY AMPS?

MS. FAHY: OH, 20 TO 40 FOR THE ACTUAL AMPS BUT

AGAIN, ONLY A SMALL PERCENT ARE REQUIRED TO BE AT THE LEVEL 2 CHARGING.

295

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. A. BROWN: SO AGAIN, LET ME JUST EXPLAIN. NO

MATTER WHERE THE BUILDING CODE IS IN NEW YORK STATE THEY'RE GOING TO

REQUIRE A 200 AMP SERVICE. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ALLOW ON A NEW PANEL

110 FEED ON A PERMANENT PANEL. SO LET'S JUST -- WE KNOW IT'S BETWEEN

32 AND 40 AMPS, THAT'S JUST STATE CODE. VERY SIMPLE. SO IF I HAVE AN

AIR CONDITION -- IF I HAVE AN AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM IN MY HOUSE, LET'S

SAY IT'S JUST TWO ZONES THAT HAVE A FULL DRAWN STARTUP OF 50 AMPS,

THERE'S 100 -- THERE'S 100 AMPS AND THEN NOW WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE

A GAS STOVE OR POTENTIALLY A GAS STOVE ANYMORE. I KNOW MY OVEN IS

ANOTHER 50 AMPS, AND I KNOW THIS IS 40 AMPS SO MY WHOLE HOUSE IS

ONLY GO TO BE ABLE TO BE POWERED WITH THE REMAINING TEN AMPS OF

POWER LEFT, WHICH MEANS I'M GOING TO NOW HAVE TO DO 250 AMP PANELS.

I JUST INCREASED MY COST FOR A SINGLE HOME OF 5- TO $7,500 JUST TO

INCREASE THE LOAD, JUST TO IMPORT THIS PARTICULAR BILL. IT GETS A LOT WORSE

THAN THAT, BECAUSE WHAT IF IT'S A -- WHAT IF THE PANEL -- THE ELECTRIC --

YOU SAID WE JUST HAVE TO INSTALL FOR A COUPLE HUNDRED DOLLARS THIS PANEL.

BUT AS MR. DURSO SAID -- ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO SAID, THERE HAS TO BE A

FEED FROM SOMEWHERE, THAT COMES FROM THE PANEL. WELL, THE GARAGE IS

SOMETIMES ON THE OPPOSITE END OF WHERE THE PANEL IS. WHAT SIZE WIRE

DO THESE PANELS REQUIRE?

MS. FAHY: IT'S -- IT'S THE TRADITIONAL WIRING.

MR. A. BROWN: WELL, IT'S ACTUALLY NOT.

MS. FAHY: I MEAN IT'S THE SAME AS -- AS FAR AS WE

KNOW, IT'S AN ADDITIONAL PLUG. I MEAN IT'S A VERY -- WE WOULDN'T BE

SEEING THIS IN SO MUCH EXISTING CONSTRUCTION IF IT WERE AS COMPLICATED

296

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

-- IF IT WERE THIS COMPLICATED. AGAIN, WE'RE SEEING THIS WITHOUT THE,

YOU KNOW, WITHOUT THE REQUIREMENT. WE'RE JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE

OTHERS ARE DOING IT. SO I'M NOT -- I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU'RE GOING WITH

THIS.

MR. A. BROWN: NO, I APPRECIATE EVERYTHING YOU'RE

SAYING. SO WHAT I'M STATING IS JUST FACT OF TODAY'S BUILDING CODE. IT'S

NOT A MATTER OF DISCUSSION. I'M JUST TRYING TO INFORM YOU TO ASK THE

QUESTION SO HOW WE CAN GET THROUGH IT. SO THE WIRE THAT'S REQUIRED IS A

NUMBER 6 WIRE. THE WIRE TO TRAVEL 200 FEET, WHICH ISN'T A BIG DISTANCE,

IS OVER $2,200 JUST FOR THE WIRE TO FEED FROM THE PANEL TO YOUR DEVICE

IN THE GARAGE. NOW IT COULD BE THAT THE PANELS AND THE ELECTRIC PANELS

IN THE GARAGE AND YOU'RE FEEDING IT. BUT NEVERTHELESS, AT THE VERY LEAST,

BECAUSE I KNOW I'M DOING 13 OF THEM IN THIS PARTICULAR HOME AS WE

SPEAK AT THIS MOMENT, EACH FEED -- NOW MIND YOU, IF YOU HAVE MULTIPLE

FEEDS IN AN APARTMENT BUILDING THAT MAY HAVE TEN UNITS, 15 UNITS, 20

UNITS, EACH ONE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE WHAT'S CALLED A HOME RUN. YOU

HAVE TO GO FROM YOUR DEVICE, YOUR PLACE YOU'RE PLUGGING IN BACK TO

YOUR PANEL. EACH ONE AT AN AVERAGE, AT THE VERY LEAST WILL COST YOU

$5,000. SO COULD YOU IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, IF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF

DOLLARS OR MAYBE $50,000, OR MAYBE $20,000, IN A PARTICULAR BUILDING

BUT A HOMEOWNER TO HAVE TO SPEND, TO BE REQUIRED TO PUT AT THE VERY,

VERY LEAST 7,500 TO $20,000 DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCE SEEMS A BIT

UNREASONABLE. IT'S A BIG PERCENTAGE TO SPEND ON A -- ON A -- ON A DEVICE

THAT AS WE KNOW THE INDUSTRY, NO ONE'S BUYING THESE ELECTRIC CARS.

MS. FAHY: MR. BROWN, IF YOU ARE BUILDING A SINGLE

297

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FAMILY HOME --

MR. A. BROWN: WHICH I DO EVERYDAY OF THE WEEK.

MS. FAHY: IF YOU NEED TO RUN A WIRE 200 FEET FOR A

SINGLE FAMILY HOME, I WOULD THINK MAYBE THOSE FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS

EXTRA IS PROBABLY SOMEWHAT INCONSEQUENTIAL AND MOST ARE ADDING IN

THE INCREASED AMPAGE [SIC] BECAUSE OF A LOT OF OTHER RELATED UPGRADES

THAT ARE IN NEW CONSTRUCTION. SO THIS IS -- I THINK THIS IS ALL NEGLIGIBLE

WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NEW CONSTRUCTION. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A

RENOVATION THAT YOU JUST DID --

MR. A. BROWN: NOT AT ALL, MADAM SPONSOR.

MS. FAHY: THIS IS A NEW CONSTRUCTION --

MR. A. BROWN: I'M BUILDING A 13 CAR GARAGE, IT'S A

TOTALLY NEW STRUCTURE.

MS. FAHY: I SEE.

MR. A. BROWN: NOW AS FAR AS NEW CONSTRUCTION

JUST TO REITERATE, AGAIN, IF A TYPICAL HOME HAS 200 AMPS AND 32 TO 40 IS

JUST THE SINGLE DEVICE, AND IF WE WERE GOING TO DO AWAY WITH GAS,

WHICH MEANS MY BOILER IS GOING TO PULL 20 AND MY AIR CONDITIONING IS

GOING TO PULL 100 AND MY OVEN IS GOING TO CONTROL 150, I HAVE NOTHING

LEFT TO POWER THE HOME MEANS, I HAVE TO ADD ANOTHER FULL ELECTRIC

SERVICE FROM THE POLE TO FEED THIS BECAUSE OF THIS ONE DEVICE WHICH IS

DRAWING THE 30 OR 40 AMPS THAT I WOULD USE FOR ALL OF MY LIGHTS AND MY

OUTLETS TYPICALLY. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A BIG NUMBER AND, YOU KNOW,

IT COULD BE 10,000, COULD BE 15,000 PER HOME. IT'S NOT A FEW HUNDRED

DOLLARS. AND AGAIN, THIS ISN'T A DEBATABLE ISSUE. THAT'S A FACT IN THE

298

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INDUSTRY, BUT IT'S A BIGGER ISSUE THAT I'M MORE CONCERNED WITH, BECAUSE

IF YOU DIDN'T GO TO THE OFFICE OF OFPC, IT'S A TOTAL NONSTARTER BECAUSE

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS WHEN THERE'S A SUBMITTAL FOR A PLAN IN THE

STATE, EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T GO TO THEM, THERE'S GOING TO BE A FIRE MARSHAL

REVIEW AND IT'S GOING TO TRIGGER ALL OF THIS AND WE'RE JUST GOING TO BE

BACK HERE NEXT YEAR KIND OF REDOING THIS WHOLE BILL. SO LET'S WORK

TOGETHER TO SEE HOW WE CAN FIGURE OUT TO ACTUALLY MAKE IT FEASIBLE AND

WORK, BECAUSE IT'S A TOTAL NONSTARTER.

MS. FAHY: GOVERNOR'S OFFICE -- JUST TO BE CLEAR,

GOVERNOR'S OFFICE HAS HAD THIS BILL FOR MULTIPLE YEARS, I FORGET HOW

LONG I'VE HAD IT, VARIATIONS OF IT. WE CONSULT WITH THEM EVERYDAY ON A

WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES. SO IT IS THE FIRST TIME HEARING THAT SOMEHOW THIS

LEGISLATION WOULD BE TRIPPED UP BASED ON -- BASED ON ONE OFFICE. AND I

ALSO -- YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING HOMEOWNERS DO THIS WITH EXISTING

CONSTRUCTION. SO, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE THAT YOU'VE RUN INTO SOME

PROBLEMS ON A -- ON A NEW GARAGE, BUT AGAIN, PART OF -- THAT IS PART OF

WHY WE HAVE SO MANY INCENTIVES TO DO THAT, THAT'S WHY IT'S CHEAPER TO

DO IT AT THE BEGINNING AND WE ARE SEEING -- WE'RE NOT SEEING QUITE THAT

KIND OF BACKLASH OTHERWISE WE --

MR. A. BROWN: THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL PLEASE.

MS. FAHY: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER MAGNARELLI: ON THE BILL.

MR. A. BROWN: WHILE I APPRECIATE THE -- THE

SPONSOR'S COMMENTS, I KIND OF THINK OF MR. ZEBROWSKI'S DISCUSSION ON

299

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

WHY LAWYERS SHOULD BE JUDGES. YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN SWINGING A

HAMMER FOR FIVE DECADES. I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS

INDUSTRY. THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE I HAVE A VERY BIG UNDERSTANDING. THE

PROBLEM WITH THIS IS IT'S IRREFUTABLE. PER HOME YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND A

MINIMUM OF 7,500, 10,000, 15,000, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE

CIRCUMSTANCE IS. MAYBE NOT SO BAD ON A NEW CONSTRUCTION IF YOU'RE

SPENDING A HALF-A-MILLION DOLLARS, $1 MILLION OR $200,000. BUT WHEN

YOU HAVE A MULTI-FAMILY BUILDING UNIT, THIS ESCALATES INTO FIRE CODE

ISSUES THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS TOTALLY PROHIBITABLE EVEN IF IT'S

ALLOWED BY INSURANCE COMPANIES TODAY, WHICH ARE FINDING DIFFICULTY TO

GIVE -- TO GIVE POLICIES TO BECAUSE OF THE EXTREME ISSUES OF OVERLOAD ON

ELECTRICAL PANELS AND POTENTIAL COMBUSTIBILITY ISSUES AS ASSEMBLYMAN

PALMESANO HAD MENTIONED. I THINK THIS NEEDS A LOT MORE STUDY. WE

SHOULDN'T RELY ON, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE WHO WENT TO SCHOOL FOR AN EXTRA

THREE YEARS IN LAW SCHOOL TO UNDERSTAND THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY. SO

FOR THAT REASON I'LL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER MAGNARELLI: MR. BROWN IN

THE NEGATIVE.

MS. GIGLIO.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER MAGNARELLI: WILL YOU

YIELD, MS. FAHY?

MS. FAHY: CERTAINLY.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU. SO CAN YOU PLEASE GO

300

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THROUGH THE EXEMPTIONS AGAIN? LIKE, SO ALL AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS

THAT WILL BE BUILT IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK WILL BE EXEMPT FROM HAVING

THESE ELECTRIC CHARGES. AM I CLEAR IN THAT?

MS. FAHY: YES. WHERE THEY -- WHERE THEY SEEK

THAT, YES.

MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. AND WHAT IF THERE WAS A

MIXED-USE BUILDING WHERE IT'S 40 PERCENT OF THE MEDIAN INCOME, 60

PERCENT OF THE MEDIAN INCOME, 80, 100 AND 120. IF IT'S MIXED, SO IT HAS

AFFORDABLE AND IT HAS MARKET RATE. THEY WILL STILL -- THAT WHOLE BUILDING

WOULD BE EXEMPT?

MS. FAHY: THAT HAS TO BE TIED TO AN AGREEMENT AND

IT -- BUT IT DOES HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TO APPLY AND IT HAS TO BE

TIED TO AN AGREEMENT. AGAIN, WE JUST VISITED ONE RIGHT HERE IN ALBANY.

IT'S ALL AFFORDABLE, IT'S ALL PUBLIC HOUSING AND IT'S ALL-ELECTRIC AND IT'S

ACTUALLY GOING TO SAVE THE HOMEOWNERS A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF MONEY

ON THEIR HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING BECAUSE OF THOSE INVESTMENTS THAT

WERE MADE. SO IT MAY HAVE BEEN SOME UPFRONT COSTS BUT IT'S ACTUALLY

GOING TO BE A MASSIVE SAVINGS ON THE -- ON THE OUTSIDE. SO WE -- WE

STILL WILL BE ABLE TO STILL DO IT, BUT SINCE WE HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED SO

MUCH ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN OUR BUDGET WE LEFT IT OUT OF THIS.

MS. GIGLIO: SO YOU JUST STATED THAT BECAUSE THIS

AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT, THEY ARE GOING TO BE SAVING A LOT OF MONEY

BECAUSE IT DOES HAVE ALL OF THIS, THE BELLS AND WHISTLES IN IT THAT WOULD

PROVIDE FOR THIS ELECTRIC SERVICE AND EVERYTHING TO BE ELECTRIC IN THE

BUILDING, CORRECT?

301

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: IN THE ONE I MENTIONED, YES.

MS. GIGLIO: YES. SO WHY WOULD WE WANT TO

RESTRICT PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT FROM

HAVING AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IN THE BUILDING THAT THEY LIVE IN? WHY

WOULD WE WANT TO TELL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AFFORDABLE

HOUSING, SORRY YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, THERE'S NO WHERE FOR

YOU TO PLUG IN.

MS. FAHY: WE'RE -- WE'RE DEFINITELY NOT TELLING

THEM THEY CAN'T. WE ARE ASSUMING -- WE ARE ASSUMING WE WILL STILL SEE

A LOT OF THIS, WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE JUST NOT ADDING IT IN AT THIS TIME

(INAUDIBLE) BECAUSE WE JUST ADDRESSED ALL OF THAT DURING THE BUDGET, BUT

WE'RE NOT PRECLUDING IT. AND AGAIN, THAT'S ONLY IF IT'S TIED TO AN

AGREEMENT. SO THERE HAS TO BE AN AGREEMENT AT THE LOCAL, STATE OR

COUNTY LEVEL AS THESE ARE -- AS WE ARE DEVELOPING NEW OR GROWING NEW

AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

MS. GIGLIO: SO IS IT THE STATE'S GOAL THAT EVERYBODY

IN NEW YORK STATE SHOULD DRIVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE?

MS. FAHY: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I WOULD HOPE MOST

PEOPLE -- YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO -- WE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS

BUDGET TO ENCOURAGE MORE MASS TRANSIT, PEDESTRIAN AND BIKE.

MS. GIGLIO: IF YOU'RE NOT ON MASS TRANSIT AND YOU'RE

DRIVING A VEHICLE, IS IT THE STATE'S GOAL TO GET EVERYBODY OFF OF, YOU

KNOW, FOSSIL FUEL VEHICLES AND MOVE TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES?

MS. FAHY: I THINK WE HAD THAT AS ONE OF OUR GOALS

TO -- BY 2035 OF THE NEW SALES OF NEW VEHICLES. AGAIN, THAT TOO IS

302

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

FOCUSED ON NEW VEHICLES, I THINK IN 2035.

MS. GIGLIO: SO WE --

MS. FAHY: IF THAT'S -- IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING

TO.

MS. GIGLIO: SO THE LEGISLATURE ADOPTED THE GREEN

LIGHT LAW MANY YEARS AGO IN 2019, I WASN'T HERE YET, BUT BECAUSE THEY

WERE SAYING PEOPLE THAT WERE HAVING A HARD TIME GETTING TO AND FROM

WORK BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE DRIVER'S LICENSES SO WE GAVE THEM

DRIVER'S LICENSES BUT NOW WE'RE TELLING THOSE PEOPLE IF THEY LIVE IN A

BRAND NEW BUILDING - AND I'M JUST GOING TO BE IN THE FOREFRONT HERE -

THERE ARE 2,400 AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS IN THE TOWN ADJOINING MY

TOWN AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S GREAT. I THINK EVERYBODY NEEDS A PLACE TO

LIVE, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ALL THOSE 2,400 PEOPLE I'M SORRY, WE DON'T

HAVE AN EV CONNECTION FOR YOU. AND IF THE BUILDERS, YOU'RE SAYING IT

DOESN'T PRECLUDE THEM FROM DOING IT, BUT WHY WOULD THEY? WHY WOULD

THEY? ARE THE TAXES BREAK GOING TO GO FROM WHAT IS NORMALLY A

TEN-YEAR TAX BREAK, TO A 20-YEAR TAX BREAK, A 30-YEAR TAX BREAK, A 40

YEAR TAX BREAK? I MEAN THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT WE HEARD WHEN WE WERE

TALKING ABOUT THE AFFORDABLE UNITS IN NEW YORK CITY, AND I'M JUST

SAYING I THINK THAT IT'S -- IT'S UNFATHOMABLE TO ME THAT WE WOULD

SUBSIDIZE AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS IN NEW YORK STATE AND NOT LET THESE

PEOPLE HAVE A CONNECTION FOR AN ELECTRIC CAR, WHICH -- WHICH THE CAR

DEALERS CAN'T GET RID OF THEM. SOMEONE IN THIS CHAMBER TOLD ME THEY

BOUGHT AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE FOR 55,000. NOW BRAND-NEW IT'S 35,000. SO

WHERE EV VEHICLES ARE BECOMING MORE AFFORDABLE BECAUSE THE DEALERS

303

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CAN'T GET RID OF THEM AND YOU SAY IT'S BECAUSE THERE ARE NO EV

CONNECTIONS, WHY WOULDN'T WE REQUIRE AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO DO THESE

EV CONNECTIONS?

MS. FAHY: I APPRECIATE YOUR CONCERN FOR THOSE WHO

ARE LIVING IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING, BUT THIS IS -- AGAIN, WE ARE ALREADY

SEEING THIS ON ITS OWN AND GROW ON ITS OWN AND WE'RE SEEING THESE

CHANGES AND I THINK THE 2,400 PEOPLE YOU JUST REFERRED TO ALREADY HAVE

A PLACE. THIS IS AGAIN, NEW CONSTRUCTION --

MS. GIGLIO: THIS IS NEW CONSTRUCTION.

MS. FAHY: -- AND WE'RE SEEING -- BUT WE ARE SEEING

THE GROWTH OF THIS. YES, THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS HOLDING UP THE INDUSTRY,

HENCE THE REASON WE WANT TO START WITH AT LEAST NEW CONSTRUCTION AND

ADDING IN THESE REQUIREMENTS. WE JUST SPENT YEARS, FIVE YEARS, IN MY

CALCULATIONS SINCE 2019, FIGURING OUT A HOUSING PACKAGE HERE. THAT

WAS DONE FOR THE SAME REASON WERE NOT DOING A LOT OF BILLS THAT WERE

ALREADY ADDRESSED IN THE BUDGET. AFFORDABLE HOUSING WAS ADDRESSED IN

THE BUDGET. WE EXEMPTED IT HERE. I WOULD HOPE AT SOME POINT WE'RE

GOING TO GO BACK, BUT AGAIN, REMEMBER, THIS IS STILL TIED TO AN

AGREEMENT SO THAT DOESN'T PRECLUDE ANY NEW CONSTRUCTION ON AFFORDABLE

HOUSING FROM STILL GOING AHEAD AND DOING IT, AND I ANTICIPATE THEY WILL

JUST AS WE DID JUST RIGHT DOWN THE STREET WITH STEAMBOAT SQUARE, WHICH

WAS JUST NEWLY -- AND THAT WAS JUST A RENOVATION, THAT WAS NOT NEW

CONSTRUCTION.

MS. GIGLIO: SO WHO IS GOING TO BE NEGOTIATING

THESE AGREEMENTS FOR THESE AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS?

304

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. FAHY: THIS IS SUBJECT TO AN -- AN AGREEMENT

WITH LOCAL, STATE ENTITIES. YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- I ASSUME WHOEVER THE

LOCAL BUILDING CODE -- WHEN YOU'RE DOING AFFORDABLE HOUSING THERE'S

MULTIPLE AGENCIES INVOLVED.

MS. GIGLIO: YEAH, BUT -- BUT THERE'S ALSO AN

AGREEMENT WITH THE STATE BECAUSE THE STATE IS FUNDING THESE PROJECTS SO

MS. FAHY: AS ARE -- AS ARE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, AS IS

-- YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE DOING AFFORDABLE HOUSING I UNDERSTAND JUST

THE ONE I SAW A FEW MONTHS AGO HERE WITH STEAMBOAT SQUARE, THERE

WERE TEN DIFFERENT GRANTS INVOLVED. SO THEY'RE WORKING WITH MULTIPLE

AGENCIES. AND REMEMBER, AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS ONE THING, WE ALSO FOR

NEW CONSTRUCTION FOR JUST AS I -- I GOT A TAX CREDIT WHEN I BOUGHT MY

EV PLUG-IN HYBRID. WE HAVE TAX CREDITS ON INSTALLATION OF PLUGS, AND I

CERTAINLY DON'T INCOME QUALIFY, BUT THERE ARE INSENSITIVES FOR ALL OF THIS

SO IT'S NOT AS IF WE'RE USING TAXPAYER DOLLARS ON A LOT OF THESE THINGS TO

INCENTIVIZE -- TO INCENTIVIZE THE GROWTH OF EVS. AGAIN, THERE'S A --

THERE'S A MUCH BIGGER PURPOSE HERE. THEY RUN CLEANER, THEY'RE

HEALTHIER AND IT IS BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

MS. GIGLIO: OKAY. I JUST DON'T KNOW WHY WE

WOULD RESTRICT PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT

AND TELLING THEM I'M SORRY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO THE GAS STATION

DOWN THE ROAD IF YOU OWN A CAR, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY MORE

FOR GAS THAN YOU WOULD PAY FOR ELECTRIC. I JUST -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

I MEAN THE STATE SUBSIDIZES THESE AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS. I DON'T

305

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

UNDERSTAND WHY YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT A REQUIREMENT THAT IN THOSE

SUBSIDIES THEY PUT THESE EV CHARGING STATIONS. ESPECIALLY WITH OTHER

BILLS THAT WE HAVE THAT REQUIRE PARKING GARAGES TO BE OPEN FOR ANYBODY

TO BE ABLE TO GO IN AND CHARGE THEIR EVS SO --

MS. FAHY: I THINK THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD BILL IDEA

AND I'M SURE WE'LL SEE THAT AS WE CONTINUE TO GROW. WE'RE GROWING THIS

ENTIRE INDUSTRY JUST AS WE'VE SEEN LOTS OF EFFORTS ON INCENTIVIZING EV

INFRASTRUCTURE. SO I, AGAIN, THIS WAS A START. IT'S A START WITH NEW

CONSTRUCTION, IT DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE MAJOR RENOVATIONS. THE -- THE

STEAMBOAT SQUARE I JUST MENTIONED WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN SUBJECT

TO THESE REQUIREMENTS BECAUSE IT WASN'T NEW CONSTRUCTION. IT WAS A GUT

RENOVATION BUT IT WASN'T NEW CONSTRUCTION. SO WE'RE TRYING TO START

SOMEWHERE. YOU'RE GIVING ME LOTS OF IDEAS FOR FUTURE BILLS. BUT WE --

WE'VE GOT TO START SOMEWHERE AS WE INCENTIVIZE THIS INDUSTRY AND I

THINK THAT'S -- WE'RE EVEN WITHOUT THESE REQUIREMENTS IN PLACE, WE ARE

SEEING IT DRAMATICALLY JUST AS WE'VE SEEN IT IN -- IN OUR BUILDINGS HERE

AND WE'RE SEEING IT AT GROCERY STORES. WE'RE SEEING -- WE'RE SEEING EV

INFRASTRUCTURE GOING IN IN MOST COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES AS WELL.

MS. GIGLIO: YUP. THERE USED TO BE BETTER

INCENTIVES FOR IT. BUT THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR --

MS. FAHY: THERE'S MORE COMING AS WE KNOW.

THANK YOU.

MS. GIGLIO: THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL

ANSWERS, THANK YOU.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

306

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

MS. GIGLIO: WHERE WE'RE A STATE THAT IS TRYING TO

GET EVERYBODY TO, YOU KNOW, SWITCH, MAKE THE ALTERNATIVE TO ELECTRIC. I

JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW, YOU KNOW, THE STATE IS INVESTIGATING SO

MUCH MONEY IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS AND YET YOU'RE TELLING THEM

THEY CAN'T DRIVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, BECAUSE THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT THAT

ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS BE PUT IN THESE AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS AND

THESE BUILDINGS, AND THEY ARE PRETTY INEXPENSIVE NOW, BECAUSE LIKE I

SAID THE DEALERS CAN'T GET THEM OFF THE LOTS. YOU CAN LEASE AN ELECTRIC

VEHICLE FOR $100 A MONTH, BUT YET WE'RE GOING TO TELL THESE PEOPLE

SORRY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE GAS STATION DOWN THE ROAD, AND AS OUR LAWS

BECOME MORE STRICT ON OWNERS OF GAS STATIONS AND ON THE USE OF FOSSIL

FUELS, GAS PRICES ARE GOING TO KEEP GOING UP. IT HAPPENED IN CALIFORNIA

AND IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE, TOO, AND THAT'LL BE THE FORCE OF THE

GOVERNMENT'S HAND TO MAKE EVERYBODY SWITCH TO AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IS

BY MAKING PRICES SO UNAFFORDABLE THAT YOU HAVE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE

BUT TO GO TO WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO. AND FOR THOSE REASONS I JUST

CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE WOULD ELIMINATE PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR

AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT AND NOT ALLOW THEM TO HAVE AN ELECTRIC CAR.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. EACHUS.

MR. EACHUS: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ON THE BILL.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. EACHUS: SIR, MY COLLEAGUES JUST SCARED THE

307

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HELL OUT OF ME. TWO-AND-A-HALF WEEKS AGO I BOUGHT A CHEVY BOLT.

THAT IS A GMC CAR FROM A CHEVY DEALER, AND I WAS NEVER TOLD TO PUT A

CHARGING STATION 50 FEET AWAY. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I CONTRACTED WITH A

CONTRACTOR THROUGH THE GMC DEALER TO HAVE A CHARGER PUT IN MY

GARAGE. WOW, I HOPE I GET MY HANDS ON THIS STUFF SO I CAN GO BACK, I

GUESS, AND SUE THIS CHEVY DEALER FROM THE INFORMATION I WAS GIVEN

TODAY.

AND I'M LISTENING ABOUT THE BUILDING. I HAVE A 200

AMP SERVICE TO MY HOUSE, I HAVE WHOLE-HOUSE AIR CONDITIONING. I

WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHAT A 100 AMP AIR CONDITIONER DOES BECAUSE MY

WHOLE-HOUSE AIR CONDITIONER IS ONLY 40 AMPS. AND I WAS THINKING

ABOUT, WAIT A MINUTE, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT 32 TO 40 AMPS FOR A

CHARGER? OH, THAT'S A TYPE 2 CHARGER, WHAT IS COMMONLY KNOWN AS A

FAST CHARGER. YOU KNOW WHAT A TYPE 1 CHARGER IS? IT WAS MENTIONED

BY THE SPONSOR, A 110- TO 120-PLUG AT 20 AMPS. AND AS FAR AS THE

WHOLE BUSINESS WITH AFFORDABLE HOUSING, WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT TELLING

ANYBODY IN THE FUTURE YOU CAN'T PUT IN THESE OUTLETS IF YOU WANT.

SO I -- I -- I'M JUST, LIKE I SAID, I WAS SCARED AND I JUST

DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS INFORMATION THAT'S BEING FED OUT HERE ON THE -- ON

THE FLOOR. AND, YOU KNOW, ALL I CAN SAY IS I'M HAVING THE EXPERIENCE,

THE TRUE EXPERIENCE, WITH THE NEW CHEVY BOLT AND I HOPE I GET

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FROM MY COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

308

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT APRIL 1ST,

2025.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. THOSE WHO

SUPPORT IT CAN CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF

THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD

DECIDE TO BE AN EXCEPTION. THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO VOTE AT THEIR SEATS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, BOTH.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. DURSO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. DURSO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN

MY VOTE. SO AGAIN, I WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR TAKING THE

QUESTIONS. BUT AGAIN, I -- I THINK I HAVE TWO REAL ISSUES WITH THIS BILL.

ONE IS THE CONSISTENCY LEVEL. AGAIN, WE'RE ASKING HOMEOWNERS AND

REQUIRING HOMEOWNERS THAT BUILD NEW HOMES, THAT THEY'RE REQUIRED TO

HAVE THIS WIRING DONE AND CHARGERS PUT IN, BUT WE'RE NOT REQUIRING

COMPANIES AND BUILDERS THAT ARE GOING TO BE BUILDING MULTI-UNIT

DWELLINGS AND MULTI-UNIT APARTMENT BUILDINGS TO DO IT IF THEY CHOOSE

309

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NOT TO. AGAIN, IT'S A CONSISTENCY ISSUE, AND LIKE ANYBODY ELSE, AGAIN, LET

THE MARKET BEAR IT AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WANT

TO DO. WE DON'T NEED TO MANDATE THAT RESIDENTS AND PEOPLE THROUGHOUT

NEW YORK STATE HAVE TO PUT THESE IN IF THEY DON'T CHOOSE TO.

THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. DURSO IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. TAGUE TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. TAGUE: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I JUST FIND IT

UNBELIEVABLE THAT HALF, OR EVEN MAYBE MORE THAN HALF OF THE PEOPLE IN

THIS HOUSE THAT ARE SUPPORTING THIS BILL DON'T EVEN OWN A HOUSE, AND

YOU'RE MAKING DECISIONS FOR PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN MY RURAL AREA THAT HAVE

TO BUY A HOUSE, MANDATING SOMETHING THAT'S UNAFFORDABLE. THE WORST

THING WITH NEW YORK STATE, TAKE POLITICS AWAY, WE'RE THE MOST

UNAFFORDABLE STATE IN THE COUNTRY AND NOW WE'RE MANDATING MORE

UNAFFORDABILITY ONTO OUR RESIDENTS. THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS. IF PEOPLE

WANT TO DO THIS, LET THEM DO IT. LET'S NOT MANDATE THEM. PEOPLE NEED

TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES. ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. AND THEN

YOU WONDER WHY PEOPLE ARE FED UP? RIGHT HERE'S THE REASON. DON'T

TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO WITH MY NEW HOUSE, I'M FOOTING THE BILL, NOT

YOU.

I VOTE NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. TAGUE IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. JACOBSON.

310

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. JACOBSON: TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE, MR. SPEAKER.

I'M VERY HAPPY THAT WE HAVE THIS BILL. THE REASON THERE AREN'T MORE

ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEING SOLD IS BECAUSE THERE'S LESS CHARGING STATIONS.

BUT I'M REALLY HAPPY THAT THE REPUBLIC -- SOME REPUBLICANS SAY THIS

BILL DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH, WE SHOULD HAVE THIS MANDATE ON MORE TYPES

OF HOUSING. SO MAYBE NEXT YEAR IF -- IF THE SPONSOR SPONSORS A NEW BILL

IN THE SENATE, MAYBE I'LL HAVE IT IN THIS ASSEMBLY AND MAYBE YOU'LL

COSPONSOR IT. IF IT ONLY COSTS THEM, WHAT, $10,000, WHEN YOU'RE

BUILDING IT NEW TO GET A -- TO GET A CHARGING STATION, THAT'D BE GREAT.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT IT WILL INCREASE THE VALUE OF THE HOUSE, WHICH

MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. THE ONLY WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET OFF THE

FOSSIL FUELS IS TO HAVE MORE CHARGING STATIONS SO PEOPLE CAN USE IT. I

HOPE THE THRUWAY STARTS PUTTING MORE OF THEM ON IN THE -- IN THE REST

AREAS. I HOPE THAT WE HAVE THEM THROUGHOUT.

SO I'M VERY GLAD TO VOTE FOR THIS BILL AND I COMMEND

THE SPONSOR FOR GETTING IT ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. JACOBSON IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. PALMESANO.

MR. PALMESANO: YES, MR. SPEAKER, BRIEFLY TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE. ON THE GM WEBPAGE, ITEM NUMBER THREE SAYS, PARK

YOUR VEHICLE OUTSIDE IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHARGING AND DO NOT LEAVE YOUR

VEHICLE CHARGING INDOORS OVERNIGHT. IN ADDITION, THERE IS -- THERE IS

ANOTHER STORY, GM TELLS BOLT OWNERS TO PARK 50 FEET AWAY FROM OTHER

CARS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO RISK -- AVOID RISKING A SPONTANEOUS FIRE AND

311

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SPREAD.

SO I VOTE NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. PALMESANO IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. NOVAKHOV.

MR. NOVAKHOV: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. YOU

KNOW, I'M NOT ANTI-EV GUY, I DO CARE ABOUT KIDS IN -- IN CONGO, I --

YES. I'M A VERY COMMONSENSE PERSON. THE -- THE ONLY -- AND PROBABLY

IT'S A GOOD BILL, I DON'T KNOW. THE ONLY REASON, MR. SPEAKER, I'M NOT

VOTING YES ON THIS BILL IS BECAUSE IT SHOULD BE AN INITIATIVE. IT SHOULD

BE AN INITIATIVE LIKE A TAX BREAK. WE -- WE SHOULD CREATE A MORE

FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT FOR THE BUILDERS TO INITIATE, YOU KNOW, NOT REQUIRE

THEM DOING SOMETHING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE -- I WAS LISTENING TO -- TO THIS LONG

DEBATE, AND I'LL TRY TO MAKE IT VERY BRIEF. IT'S INTERESTING THAT, YOU

KNOW, THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL AND -- AND THE TEAM CONSISTING OF

ECONOMISTS, ATTORNEYS AND RESEARCHERS, THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH IS

IT TO RUN AN ELECTRIC WIRE FROM THE BASEMENT OF THE GARAGE TO THE, I DON'T

KNOW, 10TH FLOOR, 20TH FLOOR, 30TH FLOOR, ET CETERA. THEY MENTIONED IT'S

A FEW HUNDREDS DOLLARS; IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS, IT'S

THOUSANDS, IT'S TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF ELECTRICAL WORK TO RUN THE

WIRE. SO I'M -- I'M SURPRISED THAT, YOU KNOW, SUCH A PROFESSIONAL TEAM

OF RESEARCHERS DOESN'T KNOW THE PRICE, YOU KNOW, IN WORKING ON THIS

BILL FOR SO MANY YEARS, DOESN'T KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES, THE FINANCIAL

CONSEQUENCES FOR THE BUILDERS. I'M -- I'M REALLY SURPRISED THEY DON'T

312

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

KNOW ABOUT IT. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE NEED TO -- TO DO MORE

RESEARCH BEFORE WORKING ON SUCH LEGISLATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR THESE REASONS, I'M --

UNFORTUNATELY, I'M IN THE NEGATIVE. I HOPE THIS BILL WILL BRING A LOT OF

GOOD -- GOOD STUFF TO OUR CONSTITUENTS. THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR.

SPEAKER; THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. NOVAKHOV IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MS. LEVENBERG.

MS. LEVENBERG: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, I RISE

TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. I AM AMAZED AT HOW LONG IT ACTUALLY TAKES US TO

PASS ANY LEGISLATION WHATSOEVER THAT ACTUALLY WILL IMPROVE OUR

ENVIRONMENT. AND WHILE WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE EXPENSES RELATED TO

CONVERTING OUR INFRASTRUCTURE OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS, WE ALSO KNOW THERE ARE

MUCH, MUCH GREATER EXPENSES TO CONTINUING TO GO FORWARD WITH OUR

INFRASTRUCTURE AS IS. SO I'M HOPEFUL THAT WE'RE GOING TO MAKE MUCH

LARGER CHANGES THAN THESE. I THINK THAT THIS IS A GREAT BILL AND I'M VERY

GRATEFUL TO THE SPONSOR FOR HAVING PUT IT FORTH AND WORKING SO HARD TO

GET IT PASSED FOR SO MANY YEARS. I DO HAVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, I HAVE

UPGRADED THE ELECTRIC ON MY SINGLE-FAMILY HOME, AND I DO KNOW WHAT

THE EXPENSES ARE AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WORK INVOLVED WAS, AND IT

WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN A LOT LESS EXPENSIVE TO DO THAT KIND OF WORK

ON NEW CONSTRUCTION THAN HAVING TO CONVERT MY 1920 HOME AND -- AND

OUTSIDE SO THAT I COULD -- I COULD CHARGE MY ELECTRIC VEHICLE IN MY

GARAGE. AND WHILE THERE POSSIBLY COULD BE RISKS INVOLVED, AND I'M NOT

313

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SAYING THERE ARE OR THERE AREN'T BECAUSE I HAVEN'T HAD ANY BAD --

ANYTHING BAD HAPPEN YET TO ME, I DO BELIEVE THAT ULTIMATELY SOME OF

THESE PROBLEMS WILL BE ADDRESSED BY THE MANUFACTURES AND THAT WE

NEED TO BE READY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN CHARGE OUR ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

WE HEAR ALL THE TIME THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO

SUPPORT ELECTRIC VEHICLES, YET, HERE WE ARE HEARING FROM OUR COLLEAGUES

ACROSS THE AISLE THAT WE SHOULDN'T ACTUALLY REQUIRE THE ELECTRIC

INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE NEED SO THAT WE CAN HAVE THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

SO WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THIS, WE'RE WAY BEHIND. I

AM PROUD TO VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. LEVENBERG IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. FRIEND TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. FRIEND: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING

ME TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE. THE FACT THAT WE'RE THROWING AROUND $3,000,

$10,000 AND SAYING THAT'S MEANINGLESS, NOT IN MY DISTRICT, NOT TO ME.

THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY. IN MY DISTRICT YOU HAVE FAMILIES, SENIOR

CITIZENS, MAYBE LOOKING TO DOWNSIZE, MOVE INTO A NEW HOME. THAT'S A

LOT OF MONEY TO SAY, YOU HAVE TO PUT THIS IN, AND THEY MIGHT NOT EVEN

OWN OR WANT TO OWN AN ELECTRIC CAR. AND THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT?

WHY? WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO BUILD THAT INTO THEIR NEW HOME WHEN

THEY DON'T EVEN WANT IT OR OWN IT? IT'S ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

ANYBODY THAT WANTS IT, GREAT, GO AHEAD AND DO IT. BUT

DON'T KID YOURSELF BY SAYING IT'S CLEAN; IT IS NOT CLEAN TECHNOLOGY. IN

NEW YORK STATE, FOSSIL FUEL AND GAS-BURNING CARS ARE CLEANER THAN

314

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CLEAN TECHNOLOGY CARS. ALL THE REPORTS SHOW THAT, BECAUSE THE CARS ARE

HEAVIER. WHEN THEY'RE CLEAN, ELECTRIC VEHICLE CARS, THEY CAUSE THE

WHEELS TO BURN OUT FASTER, THEY CAUSE THE BRAKES TO BURN OUT FASTER,

KICKING OFF ALL THAT POLLUTANT, DUST, AND CARCINOGEN INTO THOSE

COMMUNITIES. YES, THEY'RE QUIET, AND THAT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING THEY

TRIED TO WORK INTO THE CARS SO YOU DON'T -- YOU DON'T HAVE ACCIDENTS THAT

YOU'RE ACTUALLY GONNA -- ACTUALLY OVERRUN SOMEBODY WHEN YOU'RE

BACKING UP. SO CONVENIENCES ABOUND IN ALL SORTS OF AREAS. THIS SHOULD

BE A CHOICE WHEN YOU BUILD A NEW HOME.

I FIND IT IRONIC THAT THIS BILL GOES INTO EFFECT APRIL 1ST,

2025, APRIL FOOL'S DAY. WHO IS THAT, THE LEGISLATURE OR THE PEOPLE

WHO ARE TRYING TO SAY THIS IS A CLEAN TECHNOLOGY? I VOTE NEGATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. FRIEND IN THE

NEGATIVE.

MR. STECK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. STECK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. HAVING GONE

THROUGH THE PROCESS OF MAKING A 1958-CONSTRUCTED HOME SUITABLE FOR

ELECTRIC VEHICLES, IT WAS NOT VERY COSTLY TO RUN A 50 AMP WIRE FROM THE

SERVICE IN THE BASEMENT TO THE GARAGE AND REPLACE THE EXISTING OUTLET

THERE. NOWADAYS, THE -- MANY OF THE CAR DEALERS ARE GIVING AWAY THE

LEVEL 2 CHARGING STATION THAT YOU CAN PUT IN YOUR GARAGE AND, IN FACT, IT

PAYS FOR ITSELF QUITE EASILY BECAUSE THE COST OF FUELING AND MAINTAINING

AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IS ABOUT ONE-QUARTER THE COST OF A COMPARABLE GAS

VEHICLE. I DRIVE A VOLKSWAGEN ID.4. THAT'S NOT A SMALL CAR AT ALL, IT --

IT COMPARES FAVORABLY WITH A LOT OF THE CROSSOVER VEHICLES THAT PEOPLE

315

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REALLY LOVE TO DRIVE.

THIS IS A LOT OF NOTHING, I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. STECK IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MS. SIMON.

MS. SIMON: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I THINK

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY POSSIBLE TO

CREATE THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD

INTO THE -- THE -- FURTHER INTO THE 21ST CENTURY, AND THIS IS SUCH AN

OPPORTUNITY. IF YOU ARE BUILDING A NEW HOUSE, IT'S NOT COSTING THAT

MUCH MORE TO PUT IN AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING. WE KNOW THAT. IF

YOU'RE DOING MULTI-FAMILY HOUSING, IT'S NOT GONNA COST THAT MUCH MORE.

THE TIME TO DO IT IS IN THE BEGINNING, IT'S ALWAYS MORE EXPENSIVE TO

RETROFIT. NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT WHEN YOU'RE STARTING A NEW HOME,

WHEN YOU'RE STARTING A NEW BUILDING. THIS IS THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY.

SO I WANT TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION

AND I WILL BE VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. SIMON IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

MR. DIPIETRO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. DIPIETRO: TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE, THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. I APPRECIATE IT. THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU HAVE ONE-RULE

GOVERNMENT IN THE STATE. I FIND IT IRONIC THAT OUR MAJORITY SITS THERE

AND MOCKS US OUT FOR BEING OPPOSED TO THIS. I DON'T TAKE IT VERY LIGHTLY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE IN ELECTRIC CARS, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T

316

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BELIEVE IN THIS ELECTRIFICATION, ESPECIALLY THE UTILITY COMPANIES WHO

SAID WE CAN'T GET TO ELECTRIFICATION. IN 20 TO 30 YEARS WE CAN'T MEET THE

GOAL, THE STANDARDS THAT THEY'VE PUT. PEOPLE ARE NOT BUYING ELECTRIC

CARS. IF YOU JUST SAW THE REPORTS FROM GM AND FORD, THEY'RE GOING

DOWN THE TUBES, NO ONE'S BUYING THEM. AND IF THEY AREN'T SUBSIDIZED,

THEY FAIL, JUST LIKE WIND AND SOLAR. IF THEY'RE NOT SUBSIDIZED, THEY FAIL.

THIS IS WHAT WE GET WITH ONE-RULE GOVERNMENT

DOMINATED BY SOCIALISM, AND I WON'T -- I WON'T BE VOTING FOR THIS. BUT

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I HAVE A BILL TO SPLIT THIS STATE AND GET RID OF NEW

YORK CITY AND LET THE REST OF THE STATE BE ON ITS ON AND FEND FOR ITSELF

BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU FROM UPSTATE, WE'RE SICK AND TIRED OF HAVING

THESE -- THESE -- THESE INITIATIVES THROWN DOWN OUR THROAT. I'LL BE VOTING

NO.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. DIPIETRO IN THE

NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

PAGE 18, RULES REPORT NO. 312, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: SENATE NO. S06584-C, RULES REPORT

NO. 312, SENATOR GIANARIS (GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, MAMDANI, RAGA,

GALLAGHER, GLICK, SILLITTI, SIMON, BURDICK, FORREST, SEAWRIGHT, FALL,

SHIMSKY, LEVENBERG, SAYEGH, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, CLARK, SIMONE,

SHRESTHA, KELLES, CARROLL, LEE, L. ROSENTHAL, HEVESI, CRUZ --

A06219-B). AN ACT TO AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW, IN RELATION TO THE

317

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

COLLECTION OF CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC INFORMATION BY CERTAIN STATE

AGENCIES, BOARDS, DEPARTMENTS AND COMMISSIONS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: AN EXPLANATION IS

REQUESTED, MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

THIS BILL WOULD ADD A NEW SECTION TO THE EXECUTIVE LAW REQUIRING

EVERY STATE AGENCY, BOARD, DEPARTMENT OR COMMISSION THAT DIRECTLY

COLLECTS DEMOGRAPHIC DATA REGARDING THE ANCESTRY OR ETHNIC ORIGIN OF A

NEW YORK RESIDENT DISAGGREGATE MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN

FROM THE WHITE DEMOGRAPHIC, OR COLLECT SEPARATE DATA ON EACH MAJOR

MIDDLE EASTERN OR NORTH AFRICAN GROUP.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. GANDOLFO.

MR. GANDOLFO: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WOULD

THE SPONSOR PLEASE YIELD FOR A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS,

WILL YOU YIELD?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES, SIR.

MR. GANDOLFO: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS

YIELDS, SIR.

MR. GANDOLFO: THANK YOU, MA'AM. SO JUST TO

START, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF GROUPS LISTED IN THIS BILL FROM THE MIDDLE

EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN REGION. MY QUESTION WAS, HOW DID YOU

ARRIVE AT THESE SPECIFIED, I GUESS, NATIONS OF ORIGIN THEY WOULD BE?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT ALIGNS WITH THE FEDERAL

318

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, THEIR DEFINITION.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY, BECAUSE I NOTICED THAT

THEIR -- THE -- THE NATIONS CONTAINED IN HERE DIFFER FROM SOME OTHER

DEFINITIONS; FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED NATIONS STATISTICS DIVISION AND

THEIR DEFINITION OF THE MENA REGION INCLUDE TURKEY, CYPRUS,

AZERBAIJAN, AND WE ALSO INCLUDE ARMENIA IN THIS DEFINITION. SO WHY --

IT'S UNCOMMON TO SEE ARMENIA LISTED AS A MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY

WITHOUT TURKEY AND AZERBAIJAN. SO WHY -- WHY ARE WE MAKING -- WHY

ARE WE INCLUDING THEM WITHOUT INCLUDING THE OTHERS? IS IT --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, THE BILL SAYS

INCLUDED BUT NOT LIMITED TO, SO THESE ARE MOSTLY SOME OF THE TOP

COUNTRIES LISTED.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: SO IT'S NOT LIMITED TO ONLY

THE COUNTRIES LISTED IN THE BILL.

MR. GANDOLFO: SO WHEN IT'S NOT LIMITED TO, I

GUESS IN CONNECTION WITH THE FORMS THAT WOULD BE FILLED OUT, HOW --

HOW WOULD THOSE NATIONS EXPAND IF IT'S NOT LIMITED TO THOSE? WHO

WOULD ADD ON MAYBE ADDITIONAL NATIONS LIKE CYPRUS, SOME DEFINITIONS

INCLUDE MALTA?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: AGAIN, WE'RE MOSTLY

ALIGNING WITH WHAT THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET INCLUDES.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY. SO THIS GOES INTO EFFECT --

NOW, IN ORDER FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO CLAIM THIS NEW DEMOGRAPHIC

CATEGORY, HOW MUCH ANCESTRY -- ANCESTRAL ROOTS WOULD THEY HAVE TO

319

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HAVE TO THOSE NATIONS? IS IT SOMETHING THAT COULD SHOW UP YOUR

ANCESTRYDNA, YOUR 23ANDME?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S ALL SELF-IDENTIFIED --

MR. GANDOLFO: IT'S SELF-IDENTIFIED? OKAY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: -- INFORMATION, YES.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY. SO RIGHT NOW THEY'RE

BEING RECORDED AS WHITE FOR DATA COLLECTION, AND I KNOW IN THE

SPONSOR'S MEMO IT'S REFERENCED THAT THERE'S A LOT OF INDIVIDUALS FROM

THIS REGION WHO HAVE ECONOMIC TROUBLES, HOUSING INSECURITY. HOW ARE

WE -- HOW ARE ANALYZING THAT DATA IF WE'RE NOT COLLECTING IT CURRENTLY?

HOW DO WE KNOW RELATIVE TO OTHER, CERTAIN GROUPS THAT THEY HAVE THESE

ISSUES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SOLVE?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, THE DATA -- THE

CENSUS BUREAU HAS A QUESTION, IT'S QUESTION NUMBER NINE, AND SAYS

WHAT IS THE PERSON'S RACE. UNDER WHITE -- AND IT REQUIRES YOU TO CHECK

YOUR RACE AND LIST YOUR COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. AND UNDER WHITE, IT SAYS --

PRINT, FOR EXAMPLE, GERMAN, IRISH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, LEBANESE,

EGYPTIAN. SO THAT INFORMATION IS -- IS RECORDED, IT'S JUST NOT

DISAGGREGATED BY STATE AGENCIES, COMMISSIONS AND BOARDS FOR PUBLIC

CONSUMPTION.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: SO THE INFORMATION IS

THERE. IF YOU LOVE THIS KIND OF STUFF LIKE I DO, YOU CAN FIND IT, BUT IT'S

NOT READILY ACCESSIBLE NOR DISAGGREGATED BY THE STATE.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY. SO NOW IT WILL BE

320

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AGGREGATED. WHY IS IT BEING DISAGGREGATED FROM WHITE IN PARTICULAR

RATHER THAN JUST COLLECTING THE DATA ON THEIR NATION OF ORIGIN?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: ASK IT -- I'M SORRY?

MR. GANDOLFO: SORRY. WHY -- SO WE'RE

COLLECTING THE DATA ON THEIR ETHNICITY, THEIR NATION ORIGIN, THEIR ANCESTRAL

ROOTS. WHY IS THAT BEING DISAGGREGATED FROM WHITE? FOR WHAT

PURPOSE IS THAT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THE

MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION ARE CONSIDERED WHITE UNDER

THE U.S. CENSUS, SO THAT'S WHERE THEIR IDENTITY IS CAPTURED.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY. SO -- AND THAT'S -- WHY IS

THAT AN ISSUE, WHY -- WHY DOES THAT HAVE TO CHANGE?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, BECAUSE THE MIDDLE

EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION DON'T EXPERIENCE SOME OF THE SAME

EXPERIENCES THAT WHITE COMMUNITIES EXPERIENCE. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE

FEDERAL WORKING GROUP UNDER THE WHITE HOUSE'S OFFICE OF

MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS ISSUE FOR MANY,

MANY YEARS, AND THEY RELEASED A RECOMMENDATION RECENTLY TO INCLUDE A

SEPARATE -- I'LL SAY, MENA - MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN - CATEGORY,

AND THEY QUOTE, "MANY MENA COMMUNITY MEMBERS DO NOT SHARE

LIVED EXPERIENCES AS WHITE PEOPLE WITH EUROPEAN ANCESTRY, DO NOT

IDENTIFY AS WHITE AND ARE NOT PERCEIVED AS WHITE BY OTHER

INDIVIDUALS." SO THERE'S A NEED TO REALLY PULL OUT THAT DATA AND

UNDERSTAND WHAT COMMUNITIES WE'RE REPRESENTING. I'LL GIVE YOU ONE

PERFECT EXAMPLE THAT I'VE EXPERIENCED. PRIOR TO REDISTRICTING, MY

321

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DISTRICT WAS 60 PERCENT LATINO, 27 PERCENT ASIAN, THERE WAS SOME

MISCELLANEOUS POPULATIONS, BUT IT WAS 11 PERCENT WHITE. I'VE NOW

EXPANDED MY DISTRICT TO INCLUDE THE NEIGHBORHOODS OF ASTORIA, WHICH

HAS A HUGE MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION. SO I WENT FROM

11 PERCENT WHITE TO 27 PERCENT WHITE. I KNOW MY -- I KNOW ASTORIA

VERY WELL, SO I KNOW THAT THE POPULATION IN MY COMMUNITY IS NOT

ACTUALLY WHITE, THEY ARE MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN. BUT I DON'T

HAVE THE DATA OR RESOURCES TO REALLY BE ABLE TO ADEQUATELY SERVE THEM.

I KNOW THEM, I WORK WITH THEM, I'M IN THE COMMUNITY, BUT THE

NUMBERS DON'T SHOW THAT. SO I DON'T KNOW SOME OF THE HEALTH

DISPARITIES THAT THEY MIGHT EXPERIENCE, SOME OF THE LINGUISTIC NEEDS

THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE, SOME OF THE CULTURAL NEEDS. SO THIS IS ALL

INFORMATION THAT WE JUST WANT TO PULL OUT FROM THE WHITE CATEGORY TO

MAKE BETTER INFORMED CHOICES AND DECISIONS AROUND OUR POLICIES.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY, THAT'S A FAIR POINT. I DON'T

THINK DATA COLLECTION IS NECESSARILY A BAD THING, DEPENDING ON HOW IT'S

USED. I KNOW IN THE SPONSOR'S MEMO IT REFERENCES THAT BY CLASSIFYING

THEM AS NON-WHITE, NOW THEY WOULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR MAYBE MORE

EQUITY-BASED AID PROGRAMS. CAN YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF SOME

PROGRAMS THAT THEY'RE CURRENTLY INELIGIBLE FOR THAT THEY WOULD NOW BE

ELIGIBLE FOR?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, THE -- REDISTRICTING

IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE. REDISTRICTING REALLY LOOKS AT KEEPING

COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST TOGETHER AND, ACTUALLY, THE MIDDLE EASTERN/

NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION IN ASTORIA WAS SPLIT BETWEEN MYSELF AND MY

322

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OTHER COLLEAGUE RIGHT NEXT TO ME BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT INCORPORATED AS

ONE COMMUNITY OF INTEREST. SO THAT'S ONE EXAMPLE. THEY'RE NOT

ELIGIBLE FOR MWBE PROGRAMS. AGAIN, WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT SOME

HEALTH DISPARITIES THAT THEY MAY EXPERIENCE, ENVIRONMENTAL INEQUITIES

THAT THEY MIGHT EXPERIENCE. ALL THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE

BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE DISAGGREGATED DATA IN OUR STATE AGENCIES.

MR. GANDOLFO: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR

YOUR RESPONSES.

MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL, PLEASE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: ON THE BILL, SIR.

MR. GANDOLFO: MR. SPEAKER, AS I JUST REFERENCED,

DATA COLLECTION'S NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING, BUT IN THIS CASE IT SEEMS

LIKE WE'RE COLLECTING THIS DATA FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING

ADDITIONAL PEOPLE ELIGIBLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING AND PROBABLY DO NEED

MORE HELP TO DEAL WITH THEIR HOUSING INSECURITY, THEIR ECONOMIC

TROUBLES. BUT THERE -- I THINK IT HIGHLIGHTS THAT THERE ARE PLENTY OF

PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WHO DO NOT QUALIFY FOR EXTRA ASSISTANCE JUST

BECAUSE OF AN IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTIC, THEY'RE NOT CLASSIFIED AS

NON-WHITE. NOW, ARE THERE MORE GROUPS THAT THIS SHOULD BE EXPANDED

TO? WHERE DOES THIS END? HOW COME WE ARE NOT GOING TO COLLECT DATA

ON DIFFERENT EUROPEAN REGIONS SUCH AS NORTHERN EUROPEAN, SOUTHERN

EUROPEAN? NOT NECESSARILY CLASSIFY THEM AS NON-WHITE, BUT JUST TO

COLLECT MORE DATA SO WE CAN LOOK FOR TRENDS AND DIFFICULTIES THAT THEY'RE

HAVING.

SO I -- I UNDERSTAND THE SPONSOR'S INTENT HERE IS TO

323

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

BETTER SERVE HER COMMUNITY AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS THAT WE

HAVE IN NEW YORK, WE ARE A MELTING POT, BUT I -- I FEEL THAT THE REASON

THAT THIS IS BEING DONE IS LEAVING PEOPLE OUT WHO COULD USE MORE

ASSISTANCE AS WELL. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU.

MR. MAMDANI.

MR. MAMDANI: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I RISE

BECAUSE I HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF REPRESENTING ASTORIA ALONGSIDE THE

SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION, AND ASTORIA IS ALSO WHERE THE FORMER MAYOR

OF NEW YORK CITY, MIKE BLOOMBERG, HAD AN NYPD UNIT TITLED "THE

DEMOGRAPHICS UNIT" RUNNING OPERATIONS. THIS IS WHERE A UNIT THAT WAS

TASKED WITH THE ILLEGAL SURVEILLANCE OF MUSLIMS PURELY ON THE BASIS OF

OUR FAITH WOULD SURVEIL WHEN MUSLIMS WOULD GO TO THE BARBERSHOP,

WHEN WE WOULD GO TO THE HOOKAH BAR, WHEN WE WOULD GO TO ASTORIA

PARK, WHEN WE WOULD GO TO -- GO ABOUT OUR DAILY LIVES. AND WITHIN

THAT UNIT THEY HAD A LIST OF 28 ANCESTRIES OF INTEREST, AND ON THAT LIST OF

ANCESTRIES THEY INCLUDED ARAB ETHNICITIES SUCH AS PALESTINIAN,

JORDANIAN, SYRIAN, TO NAME A FEW. AND SO IT WOULD BE A POINT OF

CONFUSION FOR MYSELF AND SO MANY OTHERS THAT WHEN IT CAME TO THE

ISSUE OF SURVEILLANCE, THE STATE SAW IT FIT TO ENGAGE IN DATA

DISAGGREGATION. BUT UNTIL THIS MOMENT WHEN IT CAME TO THE QUESTION OF

STATE SUPPORT OR RECOGNITION OR HAVING ANY INPUT ON STATE POLICY, IT WAS

NOT WORTHY.

AND SO I WOULD LIKE TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR

RECOGNIZING THE FACT THAT MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN NEW

324

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

YORKERS DO EXPERIENCE LIFE SEPARATE FROM THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY ARE

CATEGORIZED THUS FAR, AND THEIR PARTICULAR EXPERIENCES OF WHAT IT MEANS

TO BE A NEW YORKER OF THOSE BACKGROUNDS ARE ONES THAT ARE WORTHY OF

RECOGNITION AND ARE ONES THAT MUST BE UPHELD AND BROUGHT INTO THE

CHAMBERS OF POWER WHERE WE DECIDE THE LAWS THAT WILL ACTUALLY GOVERN

THEIR LIVES.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BLUMENCRANZ.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR.

SPEAKER. WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS

WILL YIELD, SIR.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, WHAT

IS THE -- THE -- YOU WENT OVER A LITTLE BIT THE -- THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT OF

THE BILL. COULD YOU JUST KIND OF GO OVER, MAYBE I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED,

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ETHNICITY, RACE, AND NATIONALITY?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THE -- THERE'S A DEFINITION

IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT: THE RACIAL CATEGORIES IN THE CENSUS

GENERALLY REFLECT THE SOCIAL DEFINITION OF RACE RECOGNIZED IN THIS

COUNTRY, AND IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO DEFINE RACE BIOLOGICALLY,

ANTHROPOLOGICALLY OR GENETICALLY. IN ADDITION, IT'S RECOGNIZED THAT THE

CATEGORIES OF RACE ITEM INCLUDE RACIAL AND NATIONAL ORIGIN OR

SOCIOCULTURAL GROUPS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M JUST A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED

BECAUSE YOU -- YOU START THE BILL OFF BY TALKING ABOUT JUST THAT, RIGHT,

325

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND THEN WHEN YOU GO TO CREATE THE SUBGROUPS, YOU THEN LIST POLITICAL

BORDERS AS A REFERENCE, RIGHT? I MEAN, YOU -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ETHNIC

AND GENETIC ORIGIN, AND THEN WE REFERENCE CERTAIN COUNTRIES HERE THAT

WOULDN'T NECESSARILY IDENTIFY THEIR ETHNIC MAKEUP SUCH AS IRAN. MOST

IRANIANS IDENTIFY AS PERSIANS, RIGHT? I'M JUST CURIOUS WHEN THIS IS

IMPLEMENTED, ARE WE GOING TO BE PROVIDING THE ETHNICITY OR ARE WE

GONNA PROVIDE THE NATIONALITY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS, RIGHT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S HOW THEY SELF-

IDENTIFY. THIS IS ALL ABOUT SELF-IDENTIFICATION, AND -- AND IF IT INCLUDES

THE REALM WITHIN THE NORTH AFRICAN OR MIDDLE EAST COUNTRIES -- AND

AGAIN, I'M LOOKING AT THE OMB RECOMMENDATIONS -- THEN THEY ARE

INCLUDED.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO IF I'M, SAY, A PERSIAN

INDIVIDUAL AND YOU PROVIDE IRANIAN AS AN OPTION ON THERE, I NOW THEN

HAVE TO -- AND I HAVE A POLITICAL BELIEF THAT I'M NOT AN IRANIAN, I DON'T

BELIEVE IN THE IRANIAN REGIME CURRENTLY, BUT I DO IDENTIFY AS PERSIAN,

NOW I HAVE TO IDENTIFY AS WHITE BECAUSE OF THE GUIDELINES JUST CREATES

MORE BOXES, BUT NOT MY BOX?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT WON'T BE MORE BOXES,

IT'S DISAGGREGATING THE CENSUS DATA THAT EXISTS ALREADY. IT JUST ALLOWS US

TO PULL IT OUT AND SHARE THAT AS DATA FROM THE STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS,

COMMISSIONS AND DEPARTMENTS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: OKAY. SO I KNOW YOU --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: SO I WANT TO BE CLEAR, THIS

IS -- THIS IS DATA THAT EXISTS ALREADY, IT'S JUST LUMPED INTO THE WHITE

326

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CATEGORY.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO WE KNOW WHAT ETHNICITY

EVERYBODY IS, WE ARE JUST GONNA JUST START COLLECTING IT AS SUCH, OR WHAT

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IF YOU FILLED THE CENSUS

IN 2020 AND YOU INCLUDED YOUR ORIGIN, THEN THAT DATA IS THERE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: BUT YOU'LL ALSO BE

CONTINUING TO COLLECT DATA FROM STATE AGENCIES, AS YOU STATE IN THE BILL,

CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S NOT COLLECTING DATA

FROM STATE AGENCIES, IT'S STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS, COMMISSIONS THAT --

THAT PROVIDE DATA, THAT -- THAT ISSUE DATA.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: YEAH, THEY -- THEY WILL --

THEY DO ISSUE DATA AND THEY WILL BE COLLECTING DATA AS WELL, AS STATED

HERE, WHEN THEY DO COLLECT DATA AND RACIAL AND ETHNIC DATA, THEY WILL

BE --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: -- COLLECTING DATA INCLUDING

THESE SUBCATEGORIES.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE'S

NORTH AFRICAN. SO LIKE, THE MAGHREB, YOU ALSO HAVE LEVANT AND -- AND

THE MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES AS WELL AS THE LAST ONE YOU MENTION,

WHICH IS OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN GROUPS INCLUDING,

BUT NOT LIMITED TO, TRANSNATIONAL INDIGENOUS GROUPS. NOW, IT IS

327

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

SELF-IDENTIFICATION --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: -- BUT YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT

THE INTENTION OF THIS BILL TO PROVIDE MORE BENEFITS TO MINORITY AND

MARGINALIZED GROUPS.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THAT -- THAT'S THE HOPE,

IT'S REALLY TO PULL OUT THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAVE THE TOOLS TO MAKE

THOSE DECISIONS. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WILL AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFY

FOR MANY OF THESE PROGRAMS, BUT IT GIVES US THE DATA AND THE TOOLS TO

MAKE THOSE DECISIONS AND SEE WHAT PROGRAMS, PERHAPS, THEY MIGHT BE

ELIGIBLE FOR. BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WHEN THEY ARE INCLUDED IN WHITE,

THEY'RE LITERALLY DEEMED INVISIBLE AND WE DON'T KNOW THE NEEDS THAT

THEY HAVE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO MIDDLE EASTERN

INDIVIDUALS ARE CURRENTLY CARVED OUT OF MBE [SIC] FUNDING, CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: BECAUSE THEY'RE

CONSIDERED WHITE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: BECAUSE THEY'RE CONSIDERED

WHITE. SO THEY'LL STILL BE CARVED OUT, WE'LL JUST KNOW WHERE THEY ARE,

CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: I'M SORRY?

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: THEY WILL STILL BE

CONSIDERED WHITE FOR THE PURPOSES OF RECEIVING BENEFITS, JUST NOT FOR

DATA COLLECTION UNDER THIS BILL. BUT IT'S YOUR INTENTION TO EXPAND THAT,

CORRECT?

328

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES. I MEAN, AGAIN, THE

DATA WOULD BE AVAILABLE IN ORDER TO LOOK AT THE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE

AND ENSURE THAT PEOPLE ARE INCLUDED.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO CONSIDERING THE

CLASSIFICATIONS PROVIDED HERE, I RECENTLY DID A 23ANDME. I AM 99.9

PERCENT ASHKENAZI JEW WITH AN ORIGIN IN THE LEVANT, WHICH WOULD

MAKE ME MIDDLE EASTERN, TECHNICALLY, UNDER THE DEFINITIONS PROVIDED

AS PART OF A DIASPORA. WOULD I THEN, UNDER NEW PROVISIONS TO THE LAWS

INCLUDING MIDDLE EASTERN COMMUNITIES, BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE STATE

BENEFITS FOR MINORITY BUSINESSES SUCH AS THE BILL WE PASSED RECENTLY

THIS YEAR IN ORDER TO RECEIVE NO-BID CONTRACTS AS A -- AS A MINORITY

BUSINESS?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IF YOU IDENTIFY AS MIDDLE

EASTERN OR NORTH AFRICAN, ANY STATE AGENCY, BOARD OR COMMISSION OR

DEPARTMENT THAT ISSUES THAT DATA WILL INCLUDE YOU IN THAT DATA.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: AND I WILL BE ELIGIBLE TO

RECEIVE BENEFITS AS A MINORITY?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THIS BILL ACTUALLY DOESN'T

IMPACT THOSE PROGRAMS, THIS JUST CREATES THE DATA AVAILABLE FOR THOSE

PROGRAMS TO ASSESS IF THEY CAN.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M JUST TRYING TO FLESH OUT

WHEN WE START TO HYPERCLASSIFY INDIVIDUALS BASED ON POLITICAL BORDERS

THAT WE'VE DONE HERE, OR IN MAYBE A MORE ACCURATE SENSE, MAYBE

INCLUDING THEIR ETHNIC MAKEUP, AGAIN, INCLUDING MAYBE AZERIS OR

TURKIC PEOPLE AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, OR PERSIANS, RATHER THAN THE

329

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

POLITICAL BORDERS, WILL WE THEN HAVE TO SIT HERE AND DISCERN WHICH

MINORITIES, BY REGION, QUALIFY FOR BENEFITS BASED ON THAT DATA? ARE WE

GONNA PICK AND CHOOSE WHO GETS WHAT WHEN WE START TO NARROW DOWN

THE FIELD OF WHO'S REALLY WHITE AND WHO'S NOT WHITE?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THAT'S NOT THE PURPOSE OF

THE BILL. THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL IS TO HAVE THE STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS

AND COMMISSIONS THAT ISSUE THAT DATA TO DISAGGREGATE THAT DATA.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: BUT AS YOU'VE SAID BEFORE,

YOUR -- YOUR HOPE AND INTENTION IS TO INCLUDE PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE

EAST. MAYBE NOT WHITE PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, EVEN THOUGH WE

INCLUDE WHITE PEOPLE AS HISPANIC UNDER THESE CLASSIFICATIONS, BUT JUST

PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN, CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: MY HOPE IS, BUT THE

PURPOSE OF THE BILL, THE VERY EXPLICIT PURPOSE, IS TO PROVIDE THE DATA AND

REQUIRE THE STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AND DEPARTMENTS

TO ISSUE THAT DATA AND MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: WILL EACH STATE AGENCY

THAT'S COLLECTING THIS DATA HAVE THE RIGHT TO INCLUDE OR NOT INCLUDE

RELATIVE TERMS, PLACES OF ORIGIN, POLITICAL MAKEUPS AS THEY SO CHOOSE?

CONSIDERING YOU GIVE EXAMPLES BUT NOT A DISTINCT LIST.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING

YOUR QUESTION.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO AFTER THE PASSAGE OF THIS

BILL --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES.

330

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: -- STATE AGENCIES THAT

COLLECT DATA AND ETHNO-RACE-BASED DATA WILL HAVE TO INCLUDE A

DROP-DOWN MENU IN THE SUBCATEGORY AND WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE MANY

DIFFERENT RELEVANT GROUPS, CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES, YES.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: YOU PROVIDE ONE OR TWO OR

THREE OR FOUR EXAMPLES IN EACH SUBCATEGORY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SOMEONE'S GONNA HAVE TO

FIGURE OUT THE REST OF THEM, WHO IS IT? WHO'S GONNA DETERMINE WHETHER

OR NOT ISRAELI'S ON THERE, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW,

ASHKENAZI JEW, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GONNA BE SOMEONE FROM, YOU KNOW,

A NORTH AFRICAN SUBREGION OR A SUBGROUP? I'M JUST -- I'M JUST TRYING TO

DETERMINE AND HONE IN ON WHAT THIS IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE AS WE START TO

CREATE INDIVIDUAL CATEGORIES AND COMMUNITIES OF NEED.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THE -- THE LANGUAGE SAYS

THAT IT'S INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, EGYPTIAN, MOROCCAN, ALGERIAN,

TUNISIAN, LIBYAN, AND THAT'S SOME OF THE NORTH AFRICAN GROUPS THAT ARE

INCLUDED, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, AND THEN THE MIDDLE EASTERN GROUPS

INCLUDED, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, INCLUDE YEMENI, IRANIAN, PALESTINIAN,

IRAQI, LEBANESE, ISRAELI, SYRIAN, ARMENIAN AND SAUDI.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO THOSE WILL BE THE ONLY

COUNTRIES LISTED?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED

TO.

331

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: OKAY. SO THEY CAN DECIDE

TO INCLUDE ALL OF THE CAUCUSES, FOR INSTANCE, MANY OF THE -STAN

COUNTRIES, ANY -- ANYWHERE THEY'D LIKE, REALLY, OR AS LITTLE AS THEY'D LIKE

EXCEPT FOR THOSE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES.

(PAUSE)

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YEAH -- IT -- IT CAN BE

ARBITRARY, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE UP TO THE AGENCIES PROVIDING THAT

INFORMATION AND DISAGGREGATING THAT INFORMATION.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: THAT SOUNDS KIND OF

ARBITRARY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THEY'RE REALLY -- THEY'RE

DEMOGRAPHERS, THERE'S PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTAND THESE CLASSIFICATIONS.

AGAIN, WE USE A LOT OF THE OMB LANGUAGE BECAUSE THAT IS THE, YOU

KNOW, PREMIERE LANGUAGE UNDER THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU. BUT AGAIN,

IT'S -- IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT ARBITRARY; THERE'S -- THERE'S AN AREA AND A REGION

THAT IS INCLUDED UNDER MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: THERE IS ETHNIC GROUPS IN

THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA, BUT WE ARE LISTING COUNTRIES, RIGHT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YEAH.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

GENETIC MAKEUP WHICH DOES NOT GO BACK TO A COUNTRY, BUT AN ETHNIC

GROUP, RIGHT? YOU SEE THE CONFUSION I'M SEEING HERE? I'M -- I'M -- IT'S

NOT HOW WE CLASSIFY ETHNICITY BASED ON -- YOU KNOW, MY ETHNIC

MAKEUP IS NOT AMERICAN, ISRAEL IS A VERY MULTI-CULTURAL COUNTRY WITH

PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAELI BY ETHNICITY,

332

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, WHAT COULD HAPPEN

IS THAT THEY COULD PUT OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN, WHICH IS

SOMETHING THAT WE MIGHT SEE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: OKAY, SO THEN IT COULD JUST

BE -- I'M -- FOR DATA COLLECTION PURPOSES THAT SEEMS TO DEFEAT THE

PURPOSE OF THIS, WHICH IS HONING IN ON GROUPS OF NEED. AND IF WE THEN

START TO SPECIFICALLY SEE CERTAIN GROUPS BUT OTHER GROUPS FEEL

UNDERREPRESENTED, WOULDN'T THAT BE A LACK OF DATA COLLECTION AND, THUS,

LIKE IN THE BILL, IF THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S SUFFICIENT THEY JUST SIMPLY

WON'T REPORT IT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING

YOUR LAST POINT HERE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: AS YOU STATE HERE, IF THEY

FEEL LIKE THERE ISN'T SUFFICIENT DATA FOR COLLECTION THEN THEY'RE JUST NOT

GONNA COLLECT IT. I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW THIS DATA COLLECTION

WILL BE UTILIZED IS A MYSTERY AND CONCERNING IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT WHAT

THE DATA COLLECTION WILL LOOK LIKE IF WE DON'T HAVE SPECIFIC GUIDELINES

FOR WHAT ETHNIC GROUPS BECAUSE THEY WON'T BE ETHNIC GROUPS. SO WHAT

COUNTRIES WILL BE LISTED SO YOU CAN NAME THEM AS YOUR ETHNICITY

(INAUDIBLE).

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'LL BE UP TO THE AGENCIES,

BOARDS, AND COMMISSIONS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO WE'RE ALL GONNA COLLECT

DIFFERENT DATA POINTS ON DIFFERENT GROUPS --

333

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: AND AGAIN, THIS IS

SELF-IDENTIFIED DATA.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: YES. I'M NOT A SCIENTIST, BUT

IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A GREAT WAY TO TRY AND FIND AND HONE IN ON A

PROBLEM IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES IF NONE OF YOUR DATA'S THE SAME,

CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: I'M SORRY, I'M HAVING A

HARD TIME HEARING YOU.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M HAVING A HARD TIME

UNDERSTANDING HOW YOU'LL ACHIEVE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING TO ACHIEVE,

WHICH IS SEEING THE DATA ON THESE COMMUNITIES IF, A, WE'RE NOT

COLLECTING ETHNIC DATA, WE'RE COLLECTING WHERE -- WHAT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN

YOU'RE FROM IN THIS CATEGORY AND, B, WE ARE NOT GONNA HAVE THE SAME

TYPE OF DATA AT ANY STATE AGENCY BECAUSE THERE'S NO SPECIFIC

REQUIREMENT FOR WHO'S INCLUDED AND WHO'S NOT INCLUDED. WHAT IF AN

AGENCY DOESN'T FEEL COMPELLED TO INCLUDE A CERTAIN REGION OR COUNTRY?

NOW YOUR DATA IS -- IS INVALID, ESSENTIALLY. YOU'RE NOT COLLECTING THE

DATA YOU'RE EXPECTING TO COLLECT.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THESE -- THESE ARE THE

MAJOR POPULATIONS THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT. THIS WILL PROVIDE A GUIDELINE

FOR COLLECTING THE DATA. AGAIN, THE AGENCIES WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR

CREATING A PROCESS TO DO SO, YOU KNOW, AND THERE'S EXPERTS IN THE

CENSUS BUREAU THAT CAN ASSIST WITH THIS. IT'S -- IT'S -- YOU'RE -- I THINK

YOU'RE OVERCOMPLICATING THIS, TO BE HONEST.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M SORRY, I DON'T THINK I'M

334

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OVERCOMPLICATING IT BASED ON OTHER LEGISLATION I'VE SEEN HERE. THERE IS

A SERIOUS NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHO THESE GROUPS ARE, BUT SEEING THE

SPECIFIC COLLECTION OF SPECIFIC GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN TARGETED BY OTHER

LEGISLATION IS OF CONCERN TO ME AS A MEMBER OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

AND I JUST WANT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE INTENTIONS OF A PIECE OF

LEGISLATION LIKE THIS, AND THAT IS WHY I'M TRYING TO GET TO THE SPECIFICS TO

MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE SEE LEGISLATION WHERE WE WANT TO CLOSE DOWN

THINGS LIKE PLACES OF WORSHIP, I WANT TO KNOW IF WE'RE COLLECTING DATA

ON WHERE THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE AND WHAT RESOURCES THEY'RE RECEIVING OR

WHAT THEY WON'T RECEIVE WHILE OTHER GROUPS WILL, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE

FROM THE SAME REGION, CORRECT?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S -- IT'S THE SAME DATA

WE -- WE COLLECT FOR ANYBODY. IT'S THE SAME INFORMATION, IT'S JUST

PULLING OUT AND UNDERSTANDING HOW THESE FOLKS IDENTIFY. WE JUST

PASSED A BILL IN 2021 THAT REQUIRES US TO DISAGGREGATE THE ASIAN DATA.

AS WE KNOW, AN EXPERIENCE BY SOMEONE WHO IS FILIPINO MAY BE VERY

DIFFERENT THAN THE EXPERIENCE OF SOMEONE WHO IS BANGLADESHI TO HAVE

PERHAPS DIFFERENT LANGUAGE NEEDS, DIFFERENT CULTURAL NEEDS, DIFFERENT

RELIGIOUS NEEDS. I REPRESENT A DISTRICT THAT RUNS THE GAMUT. I WOULD

LOVE TO KNOW EXACTLY, YOU KNOW, WHERE MY EGYPTIAN COMMUNITIES ARE,

WHERE MY MOROCCAN COMMUNITIES ARE, JUST IN THE SAME WAY I WANT TO

KNOW WHERE MY FILIPINO COMMUNITIES ARE. THIS TOOL JUST GIVES US THAT

INFORMATION. THIS BILL GIVES US THAT INFORMATION TO HAVE THE DATA AND

RESOURCES. WHAT WE DO WITH THAT IS SEPARATE AND APART FROM -- FROM THE

ACTUAL BILL. THE ACTUAL BILL'S INTENT AND PURPOSE IS TO PROVIDE THAT

335

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

INFORMATION.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I RESPECT THE ANSWER, BUT I

AM CONCERNED BECAUSE IN THOSE CATEGORIES WE DO NOT INCLUDE

DIASPORAS, AND THERE IS A LOT OF GEOPOLITICAL COMPLEXITIES WHEN IT

COMES TO MANY OF THESE REGIONS. THE TURKS -- THE -- THE KURDS, FOR

INSTANCE, ARE THEY MIDDLE EASTERN IF THEY ARE IN AN OCCUPIED PORTION OF

TURKEY, ARE THEY NOT? THE CLASSIFICATION MAY MUDDY THE WATERS FOR THE

INTENDED GOAL OF THIS EXERCISE, AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE IF WE ARE

GOING TO THEN DICTATE LEGISLATION BASED ON DATA WE'RE COLLECTING HERE,

ARE WE DOING SO IN A WAY THAT IS SUFFICIENTLY REPRESENTING CERTAIN

COMMUNITIES.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION?

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M OKAY. I THINK -- I THINK I

-- I THINK I GOT WHAT I NEEDED OUT OF THIS --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S -- IT'S -- PEOPLE

SELF-IDENTIFY IN THE U.S. CENSUS DATA. MY HOPE AND GOAL IS TO GET THAT

INFORMATION, DISAGGREGATE IT BY WHITE -- DISAGGREGATE THE WHITE

CATEGORY TO PULL OUT THIS MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN COMMUNITY.

THESE ARE THE COUNTRIES LISTED. THIS IS THE STANDARD BY WHICH THE

OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET USES FOR THE U.S. CENSUS, AND WE

CAN THEN USE THAT DATA IN WAYS WE SEE FIT AS A LEGISLATURE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO --

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: YOU HAVE EXPENDED

YOUR TIME.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: OH, YEAH. I'LL EXTEND MY

336

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

TIME, I JUST HAVE A FEW MORE QUESTIONS.

SO ON THE CENSUS WHEN YOU SEE THE ETHNICITY PORTION,

IT'LL SAY IRANIAN CURRENTLY?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: I'M SORRY?

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: ON -- ON THE CENSUS, YOU

SAID IT'S -- IT'S WHAT THE CENSUS IS DOING RIGHT NOW. THE CENSUS OFFERS

POLITICAL BORDERS UNDER ETHNICITY?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THE CENSUS READS, WHAT

IS PERSON 1'S RACE, OR PERSON 2, WHATEVER, HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU HAVE

IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD, MARK AN X FOR ONE OR MORE BOXES AND PRINT ORIGINS.

FOR THE WHITE CATEGORY IT SAYS, WHITE, PRINT, FOR EXAMPLE, GERMAN,

IRISH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, LEBANESE, ET CETERA. YOU SELF-IDENTIFY HOW YOU

-- HOW YOU IDENTIFY IN THIS CATEGORY.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: YOUR NATION OF ORIGIN, NOT

YOUR ETHNICITY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT -- IT SAYS YOUR ORIGINS,

PRINT ORIGINS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: ORIGIN, JUST ORIGIN.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THAT'S THE LANGUAGE THEY

USE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO NOT ETHNIC MAKEUP, BUT

WE ARE USING THE TERM "ETHNICITY" AND GENETIC MAKEUP HERE IN YOUR

PIECE OF LEGISLATION, SO IF THEY'RE NOT AND YOU ARE, WHAT HAPPENS?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, IN FACT THE CENSUS

HAS ISSUED A DIRECTIVE VERY RECENTLY THAT MAKES RECOMMENDATION FOR

337

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE FUTURE CENSUS, THE 2030 CENSUS, TO -- TO PUT THE RACE AND ETHNIC

CATEGORY TOGETHER AND INCLUDE A MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN CHECK

BOX. NOW, THAT'S NOT YET FIRM, THEY HAVEN'T YET MADE THAT DECISION,

THERE'S A PROCESS BY WHICH THAT'LL BE INCLUDED, IF IT IS. BUT THAT IS A

RECOMMENDATION ALSO BY THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: SO WE'RE GONNA BETTER

CLASSIFY INDIVIDUALS BY MIXING RACE AND ETHNICITY TOGETHER?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THAT'S JUST A

RECOMMENDATION BY YEARS OF STUDY WITH SOCIAL SCIENTISTS AT THE U.S.

CENSUS -- AT THE -- AT THE WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND

BUDGET.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I'M JUST -- OUT OF CURIOSITY,

DO YOU HAVE THE HYPOTHESIS AS TO WHY THAT'S A MORE EFFICIENT WAY OF

COLLECTING AND UNDERSTANDING THE DATA SURROUNDING THESE INDIVIDUALS?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING

YOUR QUESTION.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I THINK ANYONE WHO

UNDERSTANDS THAT SOMEONE'S ETHNIC MAKEUP, FOR INSTANCE THE JEWISH

COMMUNITY, RIGHT, THEY COME FROM A DIASPORA THAT'S THOUSANDS OF YEARS

LONG, AND I MAY BE ETHNIC -- ETHNICALLY AN ASHKENAZI JEW BASED ON MY

GENETIC MAKEUP, BUT THAT'S NOT MY RACE, PER SE. I COULD POTENTIALLY

IDENTIFY AS PART OF THE JEWISH RACE; THAT DOESN'T MAKE A WHOLE LOT OF

SENSE. SO IT -- YOU'RE -- YOU'RE CREATING AN UMBRELLA TERM AND TAKING

TWO VERY SPECIFIC AND DISTINCTIVE THINGS AND THEN ELIMINATING IT BY

MAKING THEM ONE. AND I'M VERY CONCERNED AS TO WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK

338

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LIKE, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT REAL GUIDANCE. THIS IS KIND OF A GUIDELINE THAT

WE'RE USING THAT WILL DISCOUNT THE SERIOUS ISSUES AND THE LASTING EFFECTS

OF MAPS DRAWN NOT TOO LONG AGO TO ELIMINATE THOSE ETHNIC MAKEUPS AND

THEIR IDENTITY, AND YET WE'RE USING THEM AS THEIR ONLY CLASSIFICATION TOOL

HERE.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THE U.S. CENSUS SAYS

THAT THE RACIAL CATEGORIES ARE A GENERALLY [SIC] REFLECTION OF A SOCIAL

DEFINITION OF THE RACE RECOGNIZED IN THIS COUNTRY, AND NOT AN ATTEMPT TO

DEFINE RACE BIOLOGICALLY, ANTHROPOLOGICALLY OR GENETICALLY, AND IS

RECOGNIZED THAT THE CATEGORIES OF RACE ITEM INCLUDE RACIAL, NATIONAL

ORIGIN AND SOCIOCULTURAL GROUPS. THAT'S THE LANGUAGE THEY HAVE.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: OKAY. SO IF THEY DECIDE TO

CHANGE THE WAY THEY SEE AND DEFINE THESE THINGS, AS THEY HAVE MANY

TIMES BEFORE, ARE WE JUST GONNA DO WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

DOES? I FEEL LIKE NEW YORK ALWAYS TRIES TO BE ONE STEP AHEAD OF THE

CURVE WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING SURE PEOPLE FEEL REPRESENTED, AND IF

THEY'RE CONSOLIDATING THESE REPRESENTATIONS, WILL WE DO THE SAME THING?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WE'RE HOPING TO BE AHEAD

OF IT, THAT THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN. IF IT'S APPROVED, IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN

UNTIL 2030. BUT AGAIN, RIGHT NOW I'M REPRESENTING A DISTRICT THAT IS 27

PERCENT WHITE THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY NOT 27 -- 27 PERCENT WHITE, THAT THEY

HAVE SPECIFIC NEEDS IN TERMS OF THEIR LANGUAGE ACCESS, IN TERMS OF

CULTURAL NEEDS. THEY'RE NOT INCLUDED UNDER ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE

COMMUNITY EVEN THOUGH I HAVE ASTHMA ALLEY IN MY COMMUNITY. AND

I'M NOT JUST SPEAKING TO MY COMMUNITY. THERE ARE NEARLY 500,000 --

339

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AND THAT'S AN ESTIMATE, RIGHT, BECAUSE THAT DATA'S NOT FULLY THERE -- OF

MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN PEOPLE IN NEW YORK STATE, AND YET

WE ALL DON'T HAVE READILY AVAILABLE DATA TO KNOW WHERE THEY ARE IN OUR

COMMUNITIES. SO THIS -- THIS IS TO PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION. DATA IS

POWER, DATA IS INFORMATION. DATA IS A TOOL THAT WE CAN USE TO MAKE

BETTER POLICY DECISIONS.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: I -- I JUST -- I'M NOT --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THIS BILL JUST FOCUSES ON

DISAGGREGATING THAT DATA FOR PURPOSES OF DISTRIBUTING THAT BY BOARDS,

COMMISSIONS AND DEPARTMENTS THAT PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION.

MR. BLUMENCRANZ: GOOD DATA IS POWERFUL, BAD

DATA IS A WEAPON AND I'M JUST TRYING TO AVOID THAT.

I THINK THAT'S ALL I HAVE FOR NOW. THANK YOU VERY

MUCH.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. SAYEGH.

MR. SAYEGH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I JUST WANTED

FIRST TO THANK THE SPONSOR. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING OFF

COURSE LOOKING AT BENEFITS AND SO FORTH. I THINK MOST OF US THAT KNOW

HISTORY KNOW THE CONTINENTS AND THE REGIONS OF THE WORLD WE DEAL WITH,

AND WE KNOW THAT WHEN SOMEBODY CALLS THEMSELVES AN AFRICAN

AMERICAN, THEY REFER TO MOSTLY SUB-SAHARA; THAT'S LARGELY BLACK

INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE RIGHTFULLY CALLED AFRICAN AMERICANS. WHEN

SOMEBODY CALLS THEMSELVES AN EUROPEAN, WE KNOW THEY'RE FROM THE

CONTINENT OF EUROPE, AND WE KNOW THE MAKEUP OF EUROPEANS. WHEN

SOMEBODY TELLS YOU THEY'RE FROM THE FAR EAST OR FROM THE ASIAN

340

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

PENINSULA, THERE'S A LOT OF CONFUSION THERE. SOMETIMES IF YOU'RE FROM

THE MIDDLE EAST AND YOUR ORIGINS ARE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU'RE NOT

CONSIDERED ASIAN. BUT I KNOW AS A HISTORY MAJOR, THE MIDDLE EAST IS

TECHNICALLY PART OF ASIA. SO IF YOU'RE FROM LEBANON OR YOU'RE FROM

JORDAN OR FROM ISRAEL, YOU'RE TECHNICALLY OUT OF ASIA, BUT YOU'RE NOT

INCLUDED THERE. AND PEOPLE FROM NORTH AFRICA AND PEOPLE FROM THE

MIDDLE EAST THAT GENERALLY CONSIST OF THE ARABIAN PENINSULA, TURKEY,

PERSIA, ISRAEL AND THOSE BORDERS ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY LOST IN THE

SAUCE. AND WE FOCUS OUR DISCUSSIONS ON BENEFITS WHEN THE TRUE

PURPOSE OF THIS LEGISLATION, WHETHER ON THE STATE LEVEL OR THE FEDERAL

LEVEL, IS TO GIVE A LITTLE CREDIBILITY AND IDENTITY OF PEOPLE OF NORTH

AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST. AND WHEN CITY AND STATE MAYBE THREE OR

FOUR MONTHS AGO RECOGNIZED MENA, MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICAN,

AS A CATEGORY, THAT REALLY GOT THE BALL ROLLING. AND WE IN NEW YORK

TAKE PRIDE IN LEADING THE NATION IN RECOGNIZING A NEED TO RESPECT

EVERYONE.

SO WHEN YOU'RE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, WHETHER YOU'RE

ARAB, WHETHER YOU'RE JEW, WHETHER YOU'RE PERSIAN, WHETHER YOU'RE

TURKISH, WHETHER YOU'RE KURDISH, YOU'RE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST. AND

YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF BY ETHNICITY, BY RACE, BY YOUR

NATION OF ORIGIN OR YOUR ANCESTORS. IT'S UP TO YOU. THIS IS NOT A

POLITICAL MATTER. IT'S A MATTER OF RECOGNIZING THERE'S AN AREA OF THE

WORLD AND THERE'S MANY PEOPLE IN THAT REGION OF THE WORLD THAT WANT A

SENSE OF IDENTITY, AND THIS IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

341

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. NOVAKHOV.

MR. NOVAKHOV: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

THANKFULLY, MY COLLEAGUE MR. BLUMENCRANZ ASKED ABOUT 95 PERCENT OF

MY QUESTIONS, SO I HAVE JUST -- JUST A FEW LEFT, SO IF THE SPONSOR WOULD

YIELD I WOULD APPRECIATE IT. MR. SPEAKER, WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES.

MR. NOVAKHOV: THANK YOU; THANK YOU, MADAM

SPONSOR. SO HOW THE MIDDLE EASTERN PERSON WILL BE DETERMINED, BY --

BY BEING BORN SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S SELF-IDENTIFICATION.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. SO, I'M A GREAT EXAMPLE

BECAUSE I WAS -- BY THE WAY, IS AZERBAIJAN A PART OF THE MIDDLE EAST IN

-- IN YOUR LEGISLATION?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S NOT LISTED AS ONE OF

THE COUNTRIES, BUT AGAIN, IT'S -- IT'S NOT LIMITED TO THE LIST OF COUNTRIES

HERE; I HAD 14 COUNTRIES HERE.

MR. NOVAKHOV: SO HOW THIS LIST CAN BE

EXTENDED?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: HOW -- IT WOULD BE UP TO

THE --

MR. NOVAKHOV: BECAUSE AZERBAIJAN --

AZERBAIJAN IS NEXT TO IRAN, THEY'RE SHARING A BORDER AND ACROSS THE

BLACK SEA FROM TURKEY. SO AZERBAIJAN -- AND -- AND ARMENIA, THEY

HAVE BORDERS WITH ARMENIA. SO AZERBAIJANIS MIGHT SAY, WHY WE ARE --

342

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ARE -- WE ARE NOT CONSIDERED AS PART OF THE MIDDLE EASTERN GROUP?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WELL, IT'S HOW PEOPLE

IDENTIFY AND SELF-IDENTIFICATION, AND THEN THE LIST OF COUNTRIES IS

INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, AND THE COUNTRIES PERHAPS BEYOND THAT

WILL BE DETERMINED BY THE AGENCY THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE

DISAGGREGATION.

MR. NOVAKHOV: SO THE COUNTRIES -- THE COUNTRIES

TO -- TO BE DETERMINED ARE -- ARE NOT IN THIS LEGISLATION, RIGHT, NOT -- NOT

IN THIS BILL? YOU'RE NOT DETERMINING THE COUNTRIES OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S -- IT'S -- IT GIVES 14

EXAMPLES, BUT IT SAYS INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. SO WHO WILL BE ADDING

THOSE COUNTRIES AS MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES? BECAUSE I'M PRETTY SURE

AZERBAIJAN IS A MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT WOULD BE UP TO THE

AGENCY --

MR. NOVAKHOV: WHICH ONE?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: -- THAT'S RELEASING THE --

MR. NOVAKHOV: WHICH AGENCY?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THE AGENCIES THAT RELEASE

DEMOGRAPHIC DATA.

MR. NOVAKHOV: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANSWERS.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. REILLY.

343

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. REILLY: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. WILL THE

SPONSOR YIELD FOR A QUICK QUESTION?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS,

WILL YOU YIELD?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS

YIELDS, SIR.

MR. REILLY: THANK YOU, MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS. SO

IN THE BILL IN SECTION 4 DOWN BY LINE 29, IT SAYS THE REQUIRE --

REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY TO THE DEPARTMENT OF

LABOR, THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES, THE OFFICE OF MENTAL

HEALTH OR THE OFFICE OF TEMPORARY AND DISABILITY ASSISTANCE UNTIL TWO

YEARS AFTER THIS SECTION SHALL HAVE BECOME LAW. BUT ALL AGENCY -- ALL

OTHER STATE AGENCIES AND BOARDS AND TASK FORCES WOULD BE -- THEY

WOULD HAVE TO APPLY 180 DAYS AFTER IT BECOMES LAW.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S NOT --

MR. REILLY: I MEAN, AS SOON AS --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YEAH, IT'S NOT APPLYING,

IT'S -- IT'S WHEN THE DATA NEEDS TO BE AVAILABLE. IT JUST GIVES THOSE --

THOSE AGENCIES MORE TIME. AND A LOT OF THIS IS MIRRORED FROM THE BILL

THAT WAS PASSED IN 2021 THAT DISAGGREGATES DATA BY THE AAPI

COMMUNITY, THE ASIAN AMERICAN PACIFIC ISLANDER COMMUNITY.

MR. REILLY: SO WHY DO THOSE AGENCIES NEED EXTRA

TIME?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WE REALLY MIRRORED IT OFF

344

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THAT LANGUAGE, PERHAPS THE DATA MIGHT BE MORE COMPLEX OR MAY TAKE

MORE TIME, SO WE'RE GIVING THE AGENCY A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME TO DO THAT.

MR. REILLY: BUT IT WOULDN'T BE AS COMPLEX --

COMPLEX FOR OTHER AGENCIES?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: IT'S TAKING A LITTLE BIT OF

TIME FOR SOME OF THOSE AGENCIES TO RELEASE THE -- THE DATA THAT IS

REQUIRED UNDER THE BILL, UNDER THE AAPI BILL THAT WE PASSED IN 2021.

MR. REILLY: WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO PROVIDE, LIKE,

AN EXAMPLE OF WHY THAT MAY BE A DIFFICULT TASK FOR THEM, FOR THOSE

THREE AGENCIES?

(PAUSE)

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YEAH, WE MIGHT HAVE TO

ASK THE AGENCY. AGAIN, IT'S MIRRORED OFF THE SAME BILL AND VERY MUCH

INSPIRED BY THAT BILL, AND THOSE ARE THE AGENCIES IDENTIFIED TO GIVE A

LITTLE BIT EXTRA TIME.

MR. REILLY: ALL RIGHT. SO THERE -- SO THERE'S REALLY

NO -- NO SPECIFIC REASON.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: NOT -- NOT -- NOT IN OUR

BILL, NO. IT JUST GIVES THEM EXTRA TIME.

MR. REILLY: DID WE -- WAS THERE ANY CONSULTATION

WITH THOSE AGENCIES TO ASK WHY THEY MIGHT NEED MORE TIME, OR WERE

THEY EVEN CONSULTED AND GIVEN MORE TIME WITHOUT ASKING THEM?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: NO.

MR. REILLY: THERE WAS NO --

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: WE DID NOT, NO.

345

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. REILLY: -- NO CONSULTATION? OKAY. THANK

YOU.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. LAVINE.

MR. LAVINE: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, WILL YOU YIELD

FOR A COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS?

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YES, SIR.

MR. LAVINE: SO I AM PRETTY SURE I KNOW WHAT THIS

BILL IS DESIGNED TO ACCOMPLISH, AND YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT IN A LOT

WAYS WE ARE BOTH FROM GLEN COVE, BUT THAT'S NOT ONE OF THE CATEGORIES.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION: SO MY BROTHER HAD HIS DNA TESTED.

NOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE, FOR REASONS WE DON'T GO INTO, MY DNA

TESTED, BUT I'M ASSUMING IT'S PROBABLY THE SAME AS HIS. SO THIS IS WHAT I

AM: I AM PART IBERIAN PENINSULA, PART GREEK, PART ITALIAN, PART

NORTHERN RUSSIAN, PART FINNISH, PART EASTERN EUROPEAN JEW, AND ALSO

YAKUT, CENTRAL ASIAN TRIBE. SO I HAVE THIS QUESTION FOR YOU: WHAT AM

(LAUGHTER)

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: YOU'RE 100 PERCENT

AMERICAN.

(LAUGHTER)

MR. LAVINE: THANK YOU. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MR. BROOK-KRASNY.

MR. BROOK-KRASNY: ALREADY?

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: WAS IT YOU?

346

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

(LAUGHTER)

MR. BROOK-KRASNY: I'M NOT READY YET.

(LAUGHTER)

I'M KIDDING, I'M ALWAYS READY.

MR. SPEAKER, TALKING ABOUT BEING 100 PERCENT OF

AMERICAN, AS YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER, I WASN'T BORN HERE. I WAS BORN

IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION. IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION IN THE

PASSPORT YOU HAD TO HAVE A NATIONALITY. MY NATIONALITY WAS JEWISH

BECAUSE I'M 99.5 PERCENT JEWISH ACCORDING TO 23ANDME. .1 PERCENT

NATIVE AMERICAN, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT CAME FROM, WE'RE STILL

TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT. BUT I'M NOT GONNA USE IT POLITICALLY IN ANY WAY.

SO MR. SPEAKER, WHEN I CAME HERE, PEOPLE STARTED

TELLING ME THAT BEING JEWISH CAN'T BE A NATIONALITY, IT'S A RELIGION.

THEN, GOING JUST A FEW YEARS FURTHER, I WAS ABLE TO FORM AN

ORGANIZATION CALLED COUNCIL OF JEWISH IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY

ORGANIZATIONS FOR THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK CITY,

COJECO. THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING JEWS, ALL -- ALL THIS TIME, DURING ALL

THIS TIME, THEY'VE BEEN FIGHTING WITH THE WORD "RUSSIAN," ESPECIALLY

NOW BECAUSE NOW THERE IS A WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE. SO OUR

IDENTIFICATION IS JUST EXTREMELY -- EXTREMELY COMPLICATED, IT'S JUST

COMPLICATED. NOW, IF WE -- WE'RE TRYING, AND I -- AND I HAD AN

EXTENSIVE AND MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION WITH THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL SO

I THINK I -- I CAN UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF THIS BILL. BUT WHAT'S

BOTHERING ME WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BEING 100 PERCENT AMERICAN --

WHERE'S 100 PERCENT AMERICAN? HE'S GONE, OKAY. IF WE'RE DIVIDING

347

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OURSELVES INTO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, I'M WORRIED ABOUT ONE THING ONLY:

WHEN I FORMED WITH OTHER PEOPLE, WE FORMED COJECO. THE PURPOSE

OF THAT ORGANIZATION WAS INTEGRATING RUSSIAN-JEWISH COMMUNITY INTO

THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, MAINSTREAM JEWISH COMMUNITY, AND THEN TO

MAINSTREAM AMERICAN COMMUNITY. THAT WAS THE -- THE PURPOSE OF

CREATING AN ORGANIZATION FOR THAT COMMUNITY.

SO IF WE'RE DIVIDING OURSELVES IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES,

I HOPE AT THE END OF THE PROCESS WE ALL WILL UNDERSTAND THAT NO MATTER

HOW WE'RE PROUD OF OUR OWN HERITAGE, WE SHOULD BE EVEN MORE BE

PROUD OF BEING AN AMERICAN. IF THAT'S THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO THINK,

THEN IT'S FINE TO DIVIDE OURSELVES IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES BECAUSE WE STILL

WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO -- SOME OF THE PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY

THEMSELVES WITH ANY CATEGORIES. BECAUSE NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ISRAEL

YOU HAVE 22 PERCENT RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE, CAME FROM EUROPE. SO

WHO ARE THEY?

I DON'T THINK I HAVE ANY MORE TIME, SO ALL I'M GOING TO

SAY IF WE'RE DIVIDING OURSELVES INTO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, LET'S JUST

UNDERSTAND THAT WE CAME HERE, WHETHER IT HAPPENED 500 YEARS AGO OR

30 YEARS AGO, WITH ONE PURPOSE ONLY: BECOME A PROUD AMERICAN.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR. AND AT THE END, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU THAT I

SPENT 11 MONTHS IN ITALY ON THE WAY TO AMERICA, WAITING FOR THE

AMERICAN CONSULATE DECISION TO LET ME IN. NOT EVERYBODY GOT IN. SO

WHEN YOU HAVING SLEEPLESS NIGHTS WAITING FOR THE AMERICAN CONSULATE

DECISION, WHETHER THEY GONNA LET YOU IN THE COUNTRY OF YOUR DREAM OR

NOT, THAT'S THE TIME WHEN YOU REALLY STARTED TO UNDERSTAND THAT BEING AN

348

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AMERICAN IS A BIG PRIVILEGE, AND HAVING AN AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP IS A

HUGE PRIVILEGE. LET'S JUST BE VERY PROUD OF THAT. THAT'S ALL I WANTED TO

SAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

(APPLAUSE)

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 120TH

DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: A PARTY VOTE HAS

BEEN REQUESTED.

MR. GOODELL.

MR. GOODELL: THANK YOU, SIR. THE REPUBLICAN

CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. THOSE WHO

SUPPORT IT SHOULD VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, SIR.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: THANK YOU, MR.

SPEAKER. THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF

THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW PEOPLE WHO

WOULD LIKE TO BE AN EXCEPTION, THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR

SEATS. THANK YOU.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THANK YOU, MA'AM.

THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

DATA IS INFORMATION, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, DATA IS POWER. AS A

349

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REPRESENTATIVE OF ASTORIA IN QUEENS, THE HOME OF LITTLE EGYPT AND

MANY OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN COMMUNITIES,

AFFECTIONATELY KNOWN AS MENA COMMUNITIES, I AM SO PROUD TO HAVE

BROUGHT THIS BILL FORWARD AND MY SENATE COLLEAGUE, AND IN PARTNERSHIP

WITH MALIKAH, THEIR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR RANA ABDELHAMID, AND ALL THE

ORGANIZATIONS THAT MAKE UP THE COUNT MENA IN COALITION.

ACCORDING THE FEDERAL WORKING GROUP AT THE OFFICE

OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, A SEPARATE MENA CATEGORY WAS

RECOMMENDED BECAUSE THEY FOUND, QUOTE, "MANY IN THE MENA

COMMUNITY DO NOT SHARE LIVED EXPERIENCES AS WHITE PEOPLE WITH

EUROPEAN ANCESTRY, DO NOT IDENTIFY AS WHITE, AND ARE NOT PERCEIVED AS

WHITE BY OTHERS", END QUOTE. THEY DO NOT BENEFIT FROM WHITE

PRIVILEGE, AND WE DO NOT HAVE TO LOOK FURTHER THAN POST-9/11 NEW YORK

DURING WHICH MENA COMMUNITIES WERE SURVEILLED, OVER-POLICED AND

DISCRIMINATED AGAINST. THE ERASURE OF MY NEIGHBORS DUE TO THIS LACK OF

DATA RENDERS THEM INVISIBLE, AND MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR US TO

SYSTEMATICALLY ADDRESS DISPARITIES IN EDUCATION, EMPLOYMENT, HEALTH

CARE, HOUSING, AND POLITICAL REPRESENTATION. WE CANNOT RESOLVE WHAT

WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND. FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE THIS

DISAGGREGATED DATA, WE STILL DO NOT HAVE STATE LEVEL INFORMATION TO TELL

US THE STORY ABOUT THE IMPACT OF COVID-19 ON THE MENA COMMUNITY.

THE LACK OF DATA DISAGGREGATION ALSO MAKES MENA NEW YORKERS

INELIGIBLE FOR MWBE OPPORTUNITIES, AND THEY'RE NOT CONSIDERED A

COMMUNITY OF INTEREST FOR THE PURPOSES OF REDISTRICTING.

MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN NEW YORKERS

350

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

DESERVE TO BE COUNTED IN NEW YORK. TODAY, WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS

CORRECTING THIS ERASURE. MY CONSTITUENTS DESERVE TO BE SEEN AND

ACCOUNTED FOR ACROSS ALL OF OUR STATE SYSTEMS, AND I'M HERE TO MAKE

SURE THAT THEY ARE. SO FROM LITTLE YEMEN IN THE BRONX TO LITTLE EGYPT

IN QUEENS, IT IS TIME TO COUNT MENA IN, AND I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE

AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: MS. GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS

IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, IF YOU WILL

PLEASE HAVE OUR HOUSE STAND AT EASE, AND I WOULD ASK THE MEMBERS OF

THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE TO IMMEDIATELY MEET THE SPEAKER IN HEARING

ROOM C.

ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: THE HOUSE WILL STAND

AT EASE. MAJORITY CONFERENCE IN HEARING ROOM C.

(WHEREUPON, AT 9:16 P.M., THE HOUSE STOOD AT EASE.)

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE HOUSE WILL

COME TO ORDER.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, COLLEAGUES

HAVE ON THEIR DESKS AN A-CALENDAR. I'D LIKE TO MOVE TO ADVANCE THAT

A-CALENDAR.

351

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON MRS.

PEOPLES-STOKES' MOTION THE A-CALENDAR IS ADVANCED. ON THE

A-CALENDAR ON CONSENT, PAGE 3, RULES REPORT NO. 429, THE CLERK WILL

READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A00189-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 429 IS HIGH.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A01303-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 430, CLARK, SIMON, DAVILA, CURRAN, LUPARDO,

GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, ZACCARO, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, MCDONALD, HYNDMAN.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING

REQUIRING PARENTS OR CARETAKERS TO EARN A MINIMUM WAGE TO BE ELIGIBLE

FOR CHILD CARE ASSISTANCE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MS. CLARK TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. CLARK: HI. THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, I RISE TO

JUST BE REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THIS BILL GETTING THROUGH TODAY. THE FOLKS --

WHEN THE MINIMUM EARNINGS BILL WAS -- A CALCULATION WAS PUT INTO

PLACE, PEOPLE DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE

(INAUDIBLE) ECONOMY AND THOSE WHO MAKE MONEY OUTSIDE OF PAYROLL.

SO GETTING THIS DONE MEANS THOSE WON'T BE PENALIZED FOR MAKING

352

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MONEY IN DIFFERENT WAYS, SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS AND OTHERS AND I

WOULD ACTUALLY REALLY ALSO LIKE TO THANK THE MINORITY AND MANY OF THE

LEADERS OVER THERE WHO HELPED LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT THIS DID AND WHAT IT

DIDN'T DO SO THAT WE COULD MAKE SURE THIS GROUP OF HARD-WORKING

PARENTS WILL GET THE CHILD CARE ASSISTANCE THEY NEED. SO THANK YOU VERY

MUCH AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MS. CLARK IN

THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A03556-E, RULES

REPORT NO. 431, ZEBROWSKI, LEVENBERG, REYES, EACHUS, LUNSFORD,

COLTON, STECK, SHIMSKY, SIMON, LEE, SIMONE, GUNTHER, PRETLOW,

CLARK, SEAWRIGHT, CUNNINGHAM, KELLES, O'DONNELL, MAMDANI,

BURDICK, THIELE, LUPARDO, DINOWITZ, GALLAGHER, MCDONALD,

MCMAHON, FAHY, EPSTEIN, L. ROSENTHAL, SHRESTHA, BICHOTTE HERMELYN,

DAVILA, MEEKS, LAVINE, HEVESI, OTIS, JACOBSON, SILLITTI. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING

THE SALE OF CERTAIN PRODUCTS THAT CONTAIN REGULATED PERFLUOROALKYL AND

POLYFLUOROALKYL SUBSTANCES.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE BILL IS LAID

353

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A03746, RULES REPORT

NO. 432, EICHENSTEIN, JACOBSON, RA. AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC

SERVICE LAW, IN RELATION TO FALSE MATERIAL STATEMENTS RELATED TO A PUBLIC

UTILITY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. EICHENSTEIN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL

IS ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04051-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 433, GALLAHAN, BYRNES, MANKTELOW, DESTEFANO, E. BROWN,

BENDETT, BRABENEC, LEMONDES, HAWLEY. AN ACT TO AMEND THE

ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW, IN RELATION TO EXEMPTING CERTAIN

PARCELS OF LAND FROM LICENSING RESTRICTIONS PROHIBITING MANUFACTURERS,

WHOLESALERS AND RETAILERS OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES FROM SHARING AN

INTEREST IN A LICENSED PREMISES.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. GALLAHAN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

354

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04613-C, RULES

REPORT NO. 434, JEAN-PIERRE, PHEFFER AMATO. AN ACT TO AMEND THE

GENERAL MUNICIPAL LAW, IN RELATION TO PROVIDING FOR AN ANNUAL

ADJUSTMENT FOR REIMBURSEMENTS FOR CERTAIN VETERANS FUNERALS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MS. JEAN-PIERRE, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT APRIL 1ST,

2025.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

355

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04917-D, RULES

REPORT NO. 435, ANDERSON, SOLAGES, ZINERMAN, GIBBS, CUNNINGHAM,

JACKSON, MEEKS, DE LOS SANTOS, SHIMSKY, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, SIMON,

RAGA, SIMONE, ARDILA, CHANDLER-WATERMAN, ZACCARO, ROZIC, HEVESI,

EPSTEIN, COOK, DAVILA, TAPIA, JEAN-PIERRE, TAYLOR, BURDICK, RAMOS, K.

BROWN, L. ROSENTHAL, GLICK, SAYEGH, SHRESTHA, OTIS, SILLITTI. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE EDUCATION LAW, IN RELATION TO FUNDING FOR SCHOOL

ANTI-VIOLENCE EDUCATION PROGRAMS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. ANDERSON, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. ANDERSON TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. ANDERSON: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO

EXPLAIN MY VOTE. TODAY WE'RE PASSING A CRITICAL PIECE OF LEGISLATION

THAT EXPANDS THE ELIGIBILITY FOR COMMUNITY GROUPS TO APPLY TO ADDRESS

THE ISSUES OF GUN VIOLENCE IN OUR SCHOOLS. AS WE'RE FACING THIS PUBLIC

HEALTH CRISIS IT'S SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THE TOOLS AT OUR

DISPOSAL TO SUPPORT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE. EVERY TIME I GO

TO A SHOOTING RESPONSE IN MY COMMUNITY WHEN THERE'S A SHOOTING, I

ALWAYS MENTION THIS VERY IMPORTANT THING, AND THAT IS CONFLICT IS A

356

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

NATURAL PART OF HUMAN EXISTENCE. AND SO HOW WE WORK THROUGH THAT

CONFLICT DEFINES US AS A PEOPLE, AS A COMMUNITY, AS A CITY, STATE AND

NATION. AND SO THIS BILL IS CRITICAL TO ENSURING THAT WE CAN EXPAND THE

ELIGIBILITY. I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MR. ANDERSON

IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04924-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 436, ANGELINO. AN ACT TO AMEND THE HIGHWAY LAW, IN

RELATION TO DESIGNATING A PORTION OF THE STATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM AS THE

"SP4 HERMAN EMIL ANDERS, JR. MEMORIAL BRIDGE"

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05297-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 437, PAULIN, L. ROSENTHAL, RAGA, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, SIMONE,

MCMAHON, SEAWRIGHT, ARDILA, LUNSFORD, LAVINE, SIMON, SHIMSKY,

357

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

LEVENBERG, FAHY, BURDICK, EPSTEIN, TAPIA, KELLES, REYES, HEVESI,

ROZIC, THIELE, CLARK, SILLITTI. AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW,

IN RELATION TO PROHIBITED HOSPITAL INTERFERENCE WITH PATIENT CARE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE BILL IS LAID

ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05334-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 438, PALMESANO. AN ACT TO AMEND THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

LAW, IN RELATION TO GRANTING PEACE OFFICER STATUS TO ANIMAL CONTROL

OFFICERS OF THE COUNTY OF SCHUYLER.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MR. ARI BROWN TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

MR. A. BROWN: YEAH, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. I

JUST WANT TO LET ALL MY COLLEAGUES WHO VOTED NO ON THIS, IF YOU DON'T

VOTE YES PHIL IS GOING TO TALK AN EXTRA TWO HOURS ABOUT THE CONGO.

(APPLAUSE)

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MR. BROWN IN

THE AFFIRMATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

358

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05631-E, RULES

REPORT 439, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A05918, RULES REPORT

NO. 440, WILLIAMS, TAYLOR, SAYEGH, COLTON, E. BROWN, DESTEFANO,

MANKTELOW, LEVENBERG, ANGELINO. AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 548 OF

THE LAWS OF 2004 AMENDING THE EDUCATION LAW RELATING TO CERTAIN

TUITION WAIVERS FOR POLICE OFFICER STUDENTS OF THE CITY UNIVERSITY OF

NEW YORK, IN RELATION TO THE EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MS. WILLIAMS, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A06203-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 441, MCDONOUGH. AN ACT AUTHORIZING THE FRIENDSHIP

ENGINE AND HOSE COMPANY TO FILE AN APPLICATION FOR EXEMPTION FROM

REAL PROPERTY TAXES.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. MCDONOUGH, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL

359

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

IS ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A06671, RULES REPORT

NO. 442, HAWLEY. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO

AUTHORIZING AN OCCUPANCY TAX IN THE VILLAGE OF MEDINA; AND PROVIDING

FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. HAWLEY, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. READ THE LAST SECTION. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS ALSO AT THE

DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

360

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A07006-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 443, BRABENEC. AN ACT IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING

CONGREGATION RSK TO RECEIVE RETROACTIVE REAL PROPERTY TAX EXEMPTION

STATUS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. BRABENEC, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A07058, RULES REPORT

NO. 444, SANTABARBARA. AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 453 OF THE LAWS OF

1977, AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF SCHENECTADY IN THE COUNTY OF

SCHENECTADY, TO CREATE SPECIAL ASSESSMENT DISTRICTS WITHIN SUCH CITY, IN

RELATION TO INCREASING THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE SPECIAL DISTRICT OPERATIONS

AND DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. SANTABARBARA, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL

IS ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

361

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A07071-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 445, J.M. GIGLIO. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN

RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF OLEAN TO IMPOSE A HOTEL AND MOTEL

TAX; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON THE

EXPIRATION THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: HOME RULE

MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A07196, RULES REPORT

NO. 446, DINOWITZ, BURDICK, SEAWRIGHT. AN ACT TO AMEND THE GENERAL

BUSINESS LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING THE INCLUSION OF A CONFESSION

362

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

OF JUDGMENT IN A CONTRACT OF AGREEMENT FOR A FINANCIAL PRODUCT OR

SERVICE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. DINOWITZ, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED AND THE BILL IS LAID ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A07331-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 447, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08075-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 448, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A04244-A [SIC], RULES

REPORT 449, TAGUE. AN ACT TO AMEND THE NAVIGATION LAW, IN RELATION

TO REGULATIONS TO RESTRICT DOCKS, BOATHOUSES AND MOORINGS ON OTSEGO

LAKE IN THE TOWN OF SPRINGFIELD.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. TAGUE, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED AND HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08427-A, RULES

363

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REPORT NO. 450, EPSTEIN, LEVENBERG, ZINERMAN, BORES, BURGOS. AN

ACT TO AMEND THE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW, IN RELATION TO

EXPANDING THE AVAILABILITY OF TEMPORARY RETAIL PERMITS BY ELIMINATING

THE TWO YEAR RESTRICTION ON TEMPORARY RETAIL PERMITS FOR APPLICATIONS

SUBJECT TO THE 500 FOOT LAW.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

MS. GLICK TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

MS. GLICK: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. BRIEFLY, THIS

CHANGES THE LOOKBACK FOR A TEMPORARY LIQUOR LICENSE FROM FIVE YEARS TO

TWO YEARS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A PREVIOUS BAR IN THAT

LOCATION. IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD AND MY DISTRICT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR

BOOKSTORES OR MANY SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS OR SERVICES TO COMPETE WITH

BARS FOR RENTAL SPACE, AND SO THIS WILL ONLY ACCELERATE AND EXACERBATE

WHAT IS ALREADY THE LOSS OF A LOT OF LOCAL RETAIL BUSINESSES. AND SO I

WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE ON BEHALF OF MY

CONSTITUENTS WHO ARE VERY OVERWHELMED BY BARS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MS. GLICK IN

THE NEGATIVE.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

364

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08612, RULES REPORT

NO. 451, SOLAGE, SIMON, WALLACE, OTIS, ARDILA, LUPARDO. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING AN

EMERGENCY HEATING ENERGY ASSISTANCE PROGRAM BENEFIT.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE BILL IS LAID

ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08820, RULES REPORT

NO. 452, FAHY, CUNNINGHAM, HEVESI, GLICK, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS,

O'DONNELL, STIRPE, LUCAS, SHIMSKY, LUNSFORD, ZACCARO, SEPTIMO,

GUNTHER, CRUZ, DAVILA, WOERNER, BURGOS, SANTABARBARA. AN ACT TO

AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW, IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE STATE INSPECTOR

GENERAL TO RECEIVE AND INVESTIGATE COMPLAINTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT IN

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES AND OTHER PLACES OPERATED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF

CORRECTIONS AND COMMUNITY SUPERVISION FOR THE CONFINEMENT OF

PERSONS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MS. FAHY, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. THE BILL IS LAID ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A08983, RULES REPORT

NO. 453, PAULIN, SAYEGH. AN ACT TO AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN

RELATION TO INCLUDING DENTAL IMPLANTS, REPLACEMENT DENTAL PROSTHETIC

APPLIANCES, CROWNS AND ROOT CANALS AS MEDICALLY NECESSARY DENTAL CARE

AND SERVICES FOR COVERAGE UNDER THE MEDICAID PROGRAM.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE BILL IS LAID

365

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09053, RULES REPORT

NO. 454, BRABENEC. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO THE

IMPOSITION OF A HOTEL AND MOTEL TAX IN THE VILLAGE OF GREENWOOD LAKE;

AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION

THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. BRABENEC, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09100, RULES REPORT

NO. 455, STECK, WOERNER. AN ACT TO AMEND THE STATE FINANCE LAW, IN

RELATION TO REQUIRING A QUARTERLY REPORT ON THE OPIOID STEWARDSHIP FUND.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

366

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09265-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 456, BRONSON, GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, SHRESTHA, REYES, L.

ROSENTHAL, LUCAS, JACOBSON, SAYEGH, SHIMSKY, ROZIC, BORES, RA,

GANDOLFO, LUNSFORD, BRABENEC. AN ACT TO AMEND THE LABOR LAW, IN

RELATION TO REQUIRING CONTRACTORS AND SUBCONTRACTORS EMPLOYED BY THE

STATE TO SUBMIT THEIR PAYROLLS OR TRANSCRIPTS TO THE FISCAL OFFICER.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09285, RULES REPORT

NO. 457, MAHER. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO THE

IMPOSITION OF A HOTEL AND MOTEL TAX IN THE VILLAGE OF SOUTH BLOOMING

GROVE; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION

THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

367

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MR. MAHER, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09321-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 458, HEVESI, CLARK, STECK, ARDILA, BURDICK, REYES, L.

ROSENTHAL, EPSTEIN, TAPIA, SEAWRIGHT, KELLES, SIMONE, SIMON,

GONZ�LEZ-ROJAS, O'DONNELL, BURGOS, KIM, DICKENS, DE LOS SANTOS,

WALKER, PAULIN, DAVILA, DINOWITZ, BEEPHAN, STERN, BORES, BRONSON,

LUNSFORD, CRUZ, SHRESTHA, LEVENBERG, TAYLOR, GIBBS, LAVINE,

MCDONALD, RAGA, CARROLL, GALLAHAN, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, GUNTHER,

GALLAGHER, MAMDANI, PRETLOW, MEEKS, FORREST. AN ACT TO AMEND THE

FAMILY COURT ACT AND SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO ENACTING THE

"SAFE LANDING FOR YOUTH LEAVING FOSTER CARE ACT" OR "SAFE LANDINGS

ACT"

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE BILL IS LAID

ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09430-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 459, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.

368

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09499, RULES REPORT

460, PEOPLES-STOKES. AN ACT TO AMEND THE LOCAL FINANCE LAW, IN

RELATION TO FACILITATING THE MARKETING OF ANY ISSUE OF SERIAL BONDS OR

NOTES OF THE CITY OF BUFFALO ISSUED ON OR BEFORE A CERTAIN DATE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE

BILL IS ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09707-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 461, MAGNARELLI, HUNTER. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN

RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF SYRACUSE TO IMPOSE A HOTEL AND

MOTEL TAX; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON

EXPIRATION THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. MAGNARELLI, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

369

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09769-B, RULES

REPORT NO. 462, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A09887-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 463, DESTEFANO. AN ACT IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE

TOWN OF BROOKHAVEN TO ALIENATE AND DISCONTINUE THE USE OF CERTAIN

PARKLANDS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. DESTEFANO, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10044, RULES REPORT

NO. 464, BARRETT. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO

370

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF HUDSON TO INCREASE HOTEL AND MOTEL TAXES.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MS. BARRETT, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10081-A, RULES

REPORT NO. 465, FITZPATRICK. AN ACT IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE

SAINT JAMES EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH OF SAINT JAMES LONG ISLAND

NY TO RECEIVE RETROACTIVE REAL PROPERTY TAX EXEMPTION STATUS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. FITZPATRICK, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

371

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10097, RULES REPORT

NO. 466, BEEPHAN. AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 208 OF THE LAWS OF 1983

RELATING TO ENABLING THE COUNTY OF DUTCHESS TO IMPOSE AND COLLECT

TAXES ON OCCUPANCY OF HOTEL, MOTEL, BOARDING HOUSE, CONFERENCE CENTER

OR TOURIST HOME IN DUTCHESS COUNTY, IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING AN

ADDITIONAL ONE PERCENT TAX.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. BEEPHAN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED. HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10118, RULES REPORT

NO. 467, CLARK. AN ACT TO AMEND THE TOWN LAW, IN RELATION TO

CLARIFYING PROCEDURES FOR FIRST ELECTIONS OF FIRE DISTRICTS TO ALLOW FOR

AT-LARGE VOTING.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MS. CLARK, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

372

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10238, RULES REPORT

NO. 468, COMMITTEE ON RULES, LEMONDES. AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC

OFFICERS LAW, IN RELATION TO QUALIFICATIONS FOR HOLDING THE OFFICE OF

CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF THE CITY OF AUBURN.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. LEMONDES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10252-A, RULES

373

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REPORT NO. 469, COMMITTEE ON RULES, BORES. AN ACT TO AMEND THE

ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW, IN RELATION TO LICENSING RESTRICTIONS

FOR MANUFACTURERS AND WHOLESALERS OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ON LICENSEES

AND SELL AT RETAIL; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF CERTAIN PROVISIONS

UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. BORES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10284, RULES REPORT

NO. 470, COMMITTEE ON RULES, GLICK. AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 550 OF

THE LAWS OF 2013 AMENDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW

RELATING TO ESTABLISHING THE MERCURY THERMOSTAT COLLECTION ACT, IN

RELATION TO THE EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: READ THE LAST

SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

374

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10318, RULES REPORT

NO. 471, COMMITTEE ON RULES, EACHUS. AN ACT AUTHORIZING THE TOWN

OF NEW WINDSOR TO ALIENATE CERTAIN PARKLANDS FOR USE AS A SEWER

TREATMENT PLANT AND TO DEDICATE OTHER LANDS AS REPLACEMENT PARKLANDS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: HOME RULE

MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES? ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

(THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10411, RULES REPORT

NO. 472, COMMITTEE ON RULES, BICHOTTE HERMELYN. AN ACT TO AMEND

THE REAL PROPERTY TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO THE APPROPRIATE TAX YEAR FOR

ASSESSING INCOME REQUIREMENTS FOR CERTAIN REAL PROPERTY TAX

EXEMPTIONS IN A CITY WITH A POPULATION OF ONE MILLION OR MORE.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

375

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE

SENATE BILL IS ADVANCED AND THE BILL IS LAID ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10461, RULES REPORT

NO. 473, COMMITTEES ON RULES, SIMONE. AN ACT TO AMEND THE

INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO CO-PAYMENTS OF PREEXPOSURE OR

POST-EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE BILL IS LAID

ASIDE.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. A10463, RULES REPORT

NO. 474, COMMITTEE ON RULES, HEVESI. AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 329

OF THE LAWS OF 2020 AMENDING THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW RELATING TO

REPORTING DATA ON CHILD WELFARE PREVENTIVE SERVICES, IN RELATION TO THE

EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION BY

MR. HEVESI, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE. THE SENATE BILL IS

ADVANCED.

READ THE LAST SECTION.

THE CLERK: THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: THE CLERK WILL

RECORD THE VOTE.

(THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

THE BILL IS PASSED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, IF WE COULD

NOW GO BACK TO OUR MAIN CALENDAR TO PAGE 3 FOR OUR RESOLUTIONS.

376

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MAIN CALENDAR,

RESOLUTIONS, PAGE 3, THE CLERK WILL READ.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2405, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. RA.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 5, 2024, AS GLOBAL RUNNING DAY IN THE

STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MR. RA ON THE

RESOLUTION.

MR. RA: THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER. JUST QUICKLY, THIS

IS A TRADITION WE'VE CARRIED ON FROM OUR FORMER MEMBER MR. CUSICK, SO

THANK YOU TO THE HANDFUL OF MEMBERS THAT WERE THERE AT 7:30 THIS

MORNING TO GO FOR A NICE RUN. I'M NOT RUNNING AT 7:30 TOMORROW

MORNING AFTER THIS LATE NIGHT IN THE CHAMBER, BUT OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A

HOBBY AND A GREAT EXERCISE ROUTINE THAT MANY NEW YORKERS TAKE ON

EVERY YEAR, SO THANK YOU TO MY COLLEAGUES FOR SUPPORTING IT.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2406, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. THIELE.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 8, 2024 AS DRAGONFLY DAY IN THE STATE

OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

377

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2407, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. DURSO.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 17, 2024, AS SANITATION WORKERS DAY

IN THE STATE -- STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2408, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MS. WOERNER.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 2024, AS ALZHEIMER'S AND BRAIN

AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2409, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MS. WALSH.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 2024, AS REUN -- REUNIFICATION MONTH

IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: MS. WALSH ON

THE RESOLUTION.

378

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

MS. WALSH: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANKS TO MY

COLLEAGUES, I KNOW IT'S LATE OR EARLY. REUNIFICATION MONTH IS

SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN CELEBRATED IN THE MONTH OF JUNE SINCE 2010,

AND BASICALLY WHAT IT IS IS IT'S AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE REALLY, REALLY

HARD WORK THAT FAMILIES DO TO GET REUNIFIED WITH THEIR KIDS THAT HAVE

BEEN PLACED IN FOSTER CARE. AND, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT THOSE

SUCCESS STORIES EVERY DAY, AND WE PASS A LOT OF BILLS HERE IN THE

CHAMBER HAVING TO DO WITH FOSTER CARE. I REALLY WANTED TO CARRY THIS

RESOLUTION TO JUST POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE SUCCESS STORIES AND THAT THEY

REALLY NEED TO BE CELEBRATED. YOU KNOW, THE GOAL OF FOSTER CARE IS

REUNIFICATION AND THERE IS A WHOLE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE THAT ARE

INVOLVED FROM CASE WORKERS TO COUNSELORS TO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST A

WHOLE HOST OF PEOPLE THAT WORK WITH THE PARENTS TO REALLY TRY TO MEET

THOSE REALLY DIFFICULT GOALS AND TRY TO OVERCOME WHATEVER CHALLENGES

THAT THEY HAD THAT KEPT THEM FROM THEIR CHILDREN AND REQUIRED THE FOSTER

CARE PLACEMENT TO BEGIN WITH.

SO I -- I THINK IT'S A -- I'M REALLY PROUD TO BE ABLE TO

CARRY IT AND I WOULD APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT OF ALL OF YOU IN -- IN ALSO

THINKING ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS TO BE SEPARATED FROM YOUR KIDS AND

THEN TO DO THAT WORK AND BE REUNIFIED. SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE

TIME, THANKS EVERYBODY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2410, RULES AT THE

379

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REQUEST OF MS. WILLIAMS.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO DECLARE JUNE 2024, AS NORTH AMERICAN HURRICANE

AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, AT THE START OF ATLANTIC

HURRICANE SEASON.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2411, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MS. REYES.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE -- JULY 25, 2024, AS AFRO-LATINA,

AFRO-CARIBBEAN, AND AFRICAN DIASPORA WOMEN'S DAY IN THE STATE OF

NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2412, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. ALVAREZ.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM AUGUST 16, 2024, AS HISPANIC MEDIA DAY IN

THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

380

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2413, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MS. SOLAGES.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM AUGUST 2024, AS BREASTFEEDING AWARENESS

MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2414, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. SMITH.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM OCTOBER 21-25, 2024, AS STRANGER SAFETY

AND EDUCATION AWARENESS WEEK IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2415, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. DESTEFANO.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM OCTOBER 2024, AS PET RESCUE AWARENESS

MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2416, RULES AT THE

381

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

REQUEST OF MS. ROSENTHAL.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM NOVEMBER 9, 2024, AS LUNG CANCER

SCREENING AWARENESS DAY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2417, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MR. DESTEFANO.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM NOVEMBER 17-23, 2024, AS HUNGER AND

HOMELESSNESS AWARENESS WEEK IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

THE CLERK: ASSEMBLY NO. 2418, RULES AT THE

REQUEST OF MS. WALLACE.

LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM NOVEMBER 2024, AS HOSPICE AND PALLIATIVE

CARE AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON THE -- ON THE

RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE

RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: MR. SPEAKER, DO YOU

382

NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 5, 2024

HAVE ANY FURTHER HOUSEKEEPING OR RESOLUTIONS?

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: WE DON'T HAVE

ANY HOUSEKEEPING, BUT WE HAVE A NUMBER -- A NUMBER OF FINE

RESOLUTIONS WE'LL TAKE UP WITH ONE VOTE.

ON THE RESOLUTIONS, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING

AYE; OPPOSED, NO. THE RESOLUTIONS ARE ADOPTED.

(WHEREUPON, ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NOS. 2419-2427

WERE UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED.)

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES: I NOW MOVE THAT THE

ASSEMBLY STAND ADJOURNED AND THAT WE RECONVENE AT 9:30 A.M.,

THURSDAY, JUNE THE 6TH, TOMORROW BEING A SESSION DAY.

ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI: ON A MOTION OF

MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, THE HOUSE STANDS ADJOURNED.

(WHEREUPON, AT 12:55 A.M., THE HOUSE STOOD

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, JUNE 6TH AT 9:30 A.M., THAT BEING A SESSION

DAY.)

383