WEDNESDAY, JUNE 5, 2024                                          11:07 A.M.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE HOUSE WILL COME

                    TO ORDER.

                                 IN THE ABSENCE OF CLERGY, LET US PAUSE FOR A MOMENT OF

                    SILENCE.

                                 (WHEREUPON, A MOMENT OF SILENCE WAS OBSERVED.)

                                 VISITORS ARE INVITED TO JOIN THE MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE

                    OF ALLEGIANCE.

                                 (WHEREUPON, ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY LED VISITORS AND

                    MEMBERS IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.)

                                 A QUORUM BEING PRESENT, THE CLERK WILL READ THE

                    JOURNAL OF TUESDAY, JUNE THE 4TH.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, I MOVE TO

                                          1



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DISPENSE WITH THE FURTHER READING OF THE JOURNAL OF TUESDAY, JUNE THE

                    4TH, AND THAT THE SAME STAND APPROVED.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO

                    ORDERED.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, SIR.  I WOULD

                    LIKE TO SHARE A QUOTE WITH THOSE IN THE CHAMBERS WITH US TODAY.

                    ACTUALLY, OUR COLLEAGUE, MARY BETH WALSH, GAVE ME A BOOK EARLIER THIS

                    WEEK THAT WAS WRITTEN BY HER SON AND, YOU KNOW, MARY BETH HAS

                    TALKED ABOUT HER SON VERY DEARLY ON THIS FLOOR MANY A TIME, AND I

                    ALMOST FEEL LIKE I KNOW THE CHALLENGES HE HAD JUST GOING THROUGH LIFE,

                    BUT GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE HE COULD JUST LITERALLY CLIMB TOWERS ALL

                    OVER ADIRONDACK PARK WAS A VERY INSPIRING THING AND HE WROTE THIS

                    BOOK.  AND INSIDE THIS BOOK THERE WAS A QUOTE FROM ASHLEY RICE,

                    ACTUALLY IT'S A POEM, AND IT TOUCHED ME, AND I'M PRETTY SURE IT TOUCHED

                    HER SON, TOO, THAT'S WHY HE PUT IT IN HIS BOOK.  AND ASHLEY'S WORDS FOR

                    US TODAY, WHEN THE TASK AT HAND IS A MOUNTAIN IN FRONT OF YOU, IT MAY

                    SEEM HARD TO CLIMB.  BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO CLIMB IT ALL AT ONCE - JUST

                    ONE STEP AT A TIME.  TAKE ONE SMALL STEP, ONE SMALL STEP, AND ANOTHER,

                    AND YOU'LL FIND THE TASK AT HAND THAT WAS A MOUNTAIN IN FRONT OF YOU IS

                    A MOUNTAIN THAT YOU'VE CLIMBED.  AGAIN, THESE WORDS BY ASHLEY, AND IT

                    WAS IN THE FOREWORD OF TERRY HYNES BOOK THAT HE WROTE CALLED

                    CLIMBING NEW HEIGHTS [SIC].  THOSE ARE ASHLEY'S WORDS TODAY, SO

                    THANK YOU, MARY BETH, FOR SHARING.

                                 (APPLAUSE)

                                          2



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. SPEAKER, MEMBERS HAVE ON THEIR DESK A MAIN

                    CALENDAR AND A DEBATE LIST.  WE'RE GOING TO BE CALLING FOR THE FOLLOWING

                    COMMITTEES OFF THE FLOOR:  WAYS AND MEANS, AND RULES.  THESE

                    COMMITTEES ARE GOING TO PRODUCE AN A-CALENDAR, WHICH WE WILL TAKE

                    UP TODAY.  AFTER YOU HAVE DONE ANY HOUSEKEEPING AND/OR

                    INTRODUCTIONS, WE'RE GOING TO BEGIN TO TAKE UP RULES REPORT NO. 341 BY

                    MR. ANDERSON ON CONSENT.  WE WILL THEN WORK OFF THE DEBATE LIST,

                    BEGINNING WITH THE FOLLOWING BILLS -- BY THE WAY, MR. SPEAKER, ALL

                    THESE BILLS ARE GOING TO BE RULES REPORT BILLS, AND WE'RE GOING TO START

                    WITH 148 BY MR. OTIS; 157 BY MS. REYES; 159 BY MS. BICHOTTE

                    HERMELYN; 189 BY MS. FAHY; 197 BY MR. BURDICK; 222 BY MS.

                    SHIMSKY; 226 BY MR. BRONSON; 241 BY MR. ZEBROWSKI; 246 BY MR.

                    LAVINE; AND 254 BY MS. FAHY.  THERE PROBABLY WILL BE A NEED TO

                    ANNOUNCE ADDITIONAL FLOOR ACTIVITY AT SOME POINT, MR. SPEAKER.  WHEN

                    THAT COMES UP, I'LL BE HAPPY TO DO SO.  AND ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE

                    ANOTHER VERY LONG DAY AHEAD OF US.  I APPRECIATE PATIENCE AND

                    COOPERATION OF SO FAR THIS WEEK, AND I FULLY ANTICIPATE THAT WE'LL HAVE

                    THE SAME COOPERATION TODAY AS WELL.

                                 THAT IS WHERE WE'RE AT, MR. SPEAKER.  IF YOU HAVE

                    INTRODUCTIONS OR HOUSEKEEPING, NOW WOULD BE A GREAT TIME.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  WELL, MRS.

                    PEOPLES-STOKES, TAKE NOTE OF THE -- JUNE THE 4TH [SIC], THERE ARE NO

                    INTRODUCTIONS AND NO HOUSEKEEPING.

                                 (APPLAUSE)

                                 AND JOY FILLS THE CHAMBER.

                                          3



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, WOULD YOU

                    ASK THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE TO GO TO THE SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE

                    ROOM IMMEDIATELY, PLEASE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  WAYS AND MEANS,

                    SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE ROOM IMMEDIATELY.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  PAGE 19, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 341, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09099, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 341, ANDERSON, DAVILA, ARDILA, WEPRIN, BICHOTTE HERMELYN,

                    CHANDLER-WATERMAN, STECK, OTIS, BURDICK, SHRESTHA, HYNDMAN,

                    FITZPATRICK, COLTON, SEAWRIGHT, ZINERMAN, DAIS, TAYLOR.  AN ACT TO

                    AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING A CAPTIVE

                    INSURANCE PROGRAM FOR COMMUTER VANS, BLACK CARS, AMBULETTES AND

                    PARATRANSIT VEHICLES, AND SMALL SCHOOL BUSES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                          4



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 PAGE 8, RULES REPORT NO. 148, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A02729, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 148, OTIS, SEAWRIGHT, SIMON, STIRPE, SAYEGH.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                    REAL PROPERTY LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING LANDLORDS TO MITIGATE

                    DAMAGES WHEN COMMERCIAL TENANTS VACATE PREMISES IN VIOLATION OF THE

                    TERMS OF THE LEASE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  AN EXPLANATION HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. OTIS:  THANK YOU, MR. GOODELL.  THIS

                    LEGISLATION DEALS WITH THE LEGAL CONCEPT OF THE DUTY TO MITIGATE

                    DAMAGES IN REAL ESTATE SITUATIONS.  BEFORE 1995, IT WAS THE LAW IN NEW

                    YORK AND IT'S LAW THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE COUNTRY TODAY THAT LANDLORDS

                    HAVE A DUTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES IN A CASE WHERE A TENANT LEAVES IN THE

                    MIDDLE OF A LEASE, AND THAT MITIGATION OF DAMAGES IS AN ATTEMPT, A

                    REASONABLE ATTEMPT TO TRY AND RE-LEASE THE APARTMENT TO MITIGATE THOSE

                    DAMAGES.

                                 IN 1995, A COURT OF APPEALS DECISION TOOK AWAY THAT

                    RESPONSIBILITY FOR COMMERCIAL LEASES AND RESIDENTIAL LEASES, AND IN

                    2019 WE RESTORED THAT DUTY FOR RESIDENTIAL LEASES.  THIS BILL TAKES THE

                    NEXT STEP AND BRINGS THAT DUTY BACK FOR THE SITUATION OF COMMERCIAL

                    LEASES.  AND I WILL SAY THAT THE -- THE LANGUAGE IN THE EXISTING LAW THAT

                    EXISTS FOR RESIDENTIAL LEASES GIVES GREAT DEFERENCE TO THE JUDGE IN TERMS

                    OF FLEXIBILITY IN TERMS OF HOW THIS HAPPENS, BUT THE LAW READS, THE

                    LANDLORD SHALL, IN GOOD FAITH AND ACCORDING TO THE LANDLORD'S RESOURCES

                    AND ABILITIES TAKE REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY ACTIONS TO RENT THE

                                          5



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PREMISES AT FAIR MARKET VALUE, OR THE AGREED UPON RATE DURING THE TERM

                    OF THE TENANCY.  AND SO I EMPHASIZE THE LANGUAGE AND THE LACK OF THIS

                    BEING THAT HIGH OF A BURDEN ON LANDLORDS, THEY NEED TO MAKE A

                    REASONABLE EFFORT, NOT KNOCK THEMSELVES OUT IF THEY CAN'T RE-LEASE THE

                    PROPERTY, THERE ISN'T A PENALTY OR REAL BURDEN IF THEY MAKE THOSE EFFORTS.

                                 I'D ALSO SAY THAT FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW, IT'S

                    GOOD TO HAVE THIS PROVISION BECAUSE IF YOU ARE IN A COMMERCIAL SETTING

                    AND THERE IS A VACANT SPACE NEXT TO YOU, ANOTHER RETAIL SETTING, YOU DON'T

                    WANT THAT TO STAY OPEN UNNECESSARILY.  AND WITHOUT THIS CHANGE IN LAW,

                    THERE'S NO REAL INCENTIVE FOR A LANDLORD TO RELEASE THE PROPERTY IF THEY'RE

                    STILL GETTING RENT FROM THE TENANT WHO LEFT.  I'D ALSO SAY AT THIS MOMENT,

                    MR. GOODELL, YOU AND I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS BILL AND OTHER BILLS THAT

                    RELATE TO CONTRACTS AND COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE IN PAST YEARS, AND I

                    KNOW YOU ARE LEAVING US IN THIS SECTION -- THIS SESSION, UNFORTUNATELY

                    THESE DISCUSSIONS HAVE BEEN I THINK CREDIT-WORTHY FOR LAW SCHOOL

                    COURSE CREDIT I THINK, GOOD DISCUSSION AND YOU -- I WANT TO COMPLIMENT

                    YOUR GREAT SKILL AT DEBATING A WIDE VARIETY OF ISSUES EVERY DAY IN THIS

                    LEGISLATURE, AND WE THANK YOU FOR THAT.  I THINK IN THE AREA, MY SENSES

                    IS AT IT RELATES TO COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE, YOU REALLY DO KNOW WHAT

                    YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.  SO I APPRECIATE THE DIALOGUE AND ANY -- ANY

                    FURTHER QUESTIONS, BUT THAT'S THE -- THE EXPLANATION AND AGAIN, THANK YOU

                    FOR WHAT YOU GIVE TO THIS HOUSE IN TERMS OF INTELLIGENT QUESTIONS AND

                    DISCUSSION ON A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                          6



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. OTIS:  OF COURSE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  HE -- THE SPONSOR

                    YIELDS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  MR. OTIS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR

                    THOSE KIND WORDS.  I JUST HAD TO ELIMINATE HALF OF MY NASTY COMMENTS

                    AND QUESTIONS.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 THANK YOU VERY MUCH, THAT WAS VERY KIND.  AND

                    YOU'RE RIGHT, MOST OF MY PRACTICE HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON REAL ESTATE THE

                    LAST 40 YEARS AND IT DOES INCLUDE COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE.  AND TYPICALLY

                    ON A COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE, FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY A STORE THAT'S GOING

                    INTO A MALL, ALL THE PARTIES ARE TYPICALLY REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEYS,

                    WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN A RESIDENTIAL REAL ESTATE AGREEMENT.  IS

                    THERE ANY REASON WHY UNDER CURRENT LAW THOSE PARTIES THAT ARE

                    REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEYS COULDN'T PUT THIS IN THE NEGOTIATED LEASE?

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, SO -- AND IN OTHER YEARS YOU'VE

                    ASKED THE QUESTION IF THERE WAS A LIQUIDATED DAMAGES CLAUSE WOULD THAT

                    PREEMPT THIS, AND I THINK THAT THE CORRECT LEGAL ANSWER BASED UPON THE

                    EXISTING STATUTE IS THAT -- THAT IF THE LIQUIDATED DAMAGE CLAUSE DID NOT

                    VIOLATE THE LANGUAGE OF THAT PROVISION YOU PROBABLY COULD HAVE IT, BUT

                    IF IT DID, YOU COULD NOT.  SO IT WOULD BE A FACT-SPECIFIC JUDGMENT THAT

                    THE JUDGE IN THAT CASE WOULD HOPEFULLY MAKE A RATIONAL JUDGMENT ON.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT CERTAINLY UNDER CURRENT LAW,

                                          7



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE PARTIES COULD NEGOTIATE AN OBLIGATION ON THE PART OF THE LANDLORD TO

                    RE-RENT THE PROPERTY AND MITIGATE DAMAGES, THEY COULD PUT THAT RIGHT IN

                    LEASE, CORRECT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  OR -- OR THEY COULD DO THAT UNILATERALLY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  CERTAINLY.

                                 MR. OTIS:  EVEN IF IT WASN'T IN THE LEASE, A LANDLORD

                    HAS THE ABILITY TO -- TO DO THAT, THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, UNDER CURRENT LAW, THE DUTY

                    OF A PARTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES IS RAISED AS AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE, IN

                    OTHER WORDS, YOU'VE BEEN DAMAGED, SOMEBODY ELSE BREACHES A

                    CONTRACT, YOU SUE THEM FOR DAMAGES AND THE OTHER SIDE SAYS, WELL, IF

                    YOU HAD TAKEN THESE VARIOUS STEPS, YOU WOULD HAVE REDUCED THE

                    AMOUNT I OWE YOU IN DAMAGES, BUT IT'S THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON THE PARTY

                    WHO'S TRYING TO AVOID PAYING THOSE DAMAGES FOR THEIR OWN BREACH.

                    THEY BREACHED IT, THEY HAVE THE BURDEN TO PROVE.  THIS CHANGES IT,

                    RIGHT, AND PUTS THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON ESTABLISHING MITIGATION ON THE

                    LANDLORD WHO DID NOTHING WRONG, CORRECT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE 2019 LAW

                    CHANGED THAT BURDEN IN RESIDENTIAL LEASES, AND TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT

                    STATUTE ALSO GIVES GREAT DEFERENCE TO JUDGES TO MEDIATE THESE SITUATIONS,

                    THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION WOULD BE PARTIALLY YES, BUT WITH SOME

                    FLEXIBILITY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WELL, IN FACT, THE ACTUAL STATUTORY

                    LANGUAGE WE'RE LOOKING AT TODAY SAYS, AND I QUOTE ON LINE 17, "THE

                    BURDEN OF PROOF SHALL BE ON THE PARTY SEEKING TO RECOVER DAMAGES."

                                          8



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL -- AND SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT

                    LAW CHANGED THE BURDEN OF PROOF, THE 2019 LAW DID, BUT THE -- BUT THE --

                    THIS SECTION HAS ALSO BEEN INTERPRETED AS GIVING THE JUDGE A BROAD

                    FLEXIBILITY IN MEDIATING THESE SITUATIONS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO JUST SO EVERYONE IS CLEAR, IN THE

                    COMMERCIAL CONTEXT, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS CURRENTLY ON THE PARTY THAT

                    BREACHES THE AGREEMENT TO SHOW THAT THE LANDLORD SHOULD HAVE OR COULD

                    HAVE MITIGATED DAMAGES.  IF WE PASS THIS BILL TODAY, THAT BURDEN OF

                    PROOF SHIFTS FROM THE PERSON WHO BREACHED THE CONTRACT TO THE

                    COMMERCIAL LANDLORD, CORRECT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  TO THE EXTENT THAT THE MINIMAL,

                    REASONABLE, GOOD FAITH EFFORTS ARE FOLLOWED THROUGH, YES, IT SHIFTS THE

                    BURDEN, BUT IT'S NOT THAT HIGH OF A BURDEN.  IT IS AN EASY THING FOR A

                    LANDLORD TO DO, TRADITIONAL AND CUSTOMARY THINGS TO SEE IF THEY CAN LIST

                    THE PROPERTY AND GET SOMEBODY INTO THAT SPACE.  SO I THINK THAT THE WAY

                    YOU PRESENT IT, IT IS NOT CREATING A NEW, STARK REALITY.  IT'S SOME

                    DEFERENCE IN TERMS OF A BURDEN, BUT IT'S A BURDEN THAT'S EASILY SATISFIED.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT IF IT'S THAT EASY, THEN WHY

                    DOESN'T THE LANDLORD AND THE TENANT -- WHY DOESN'T THE TENANT SIMPLY

                    NEGOTIATE IN THE COMMERCIAL LEASE IN THE FIRST PLACE?  I MEAN, ALL THESE

                    TERMS AND CONDITIONS ARE SUBJECT TO NEGOTIATION, BOTH PARTIES ARE FULLY

                    REPRESENTED, THERE'S TYPICALLY THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AT

                    RISK.  WHY DO WE AS THE STATE LEGISLATURE HAVE TO OVERRIDE THE

                    COMPETITIVE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN THOSE WELL-REPRESENTED PARTIES?

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, WE, IN -- IN THIS CONTEXT AND OTHER

                                          9



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CONTEXTS SOMETIMES AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY MAKE THAT JUDGMENT.

                    IN THIS SECTION OF LAW, WE MADE THAT JUDGMENT IN 2019.  THE BILL

                    PROPOSED HERE EXTENDS THAT PRINCIPAL TO COMMERCIAL LEASES.  AND IT,

                    AGAIN, I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER BENEFIT THERE TO AVOID UNNECESSARILY

                    EMPTY STOREFRONTS, WHICH BENEFITS OTHER BUSINESSES, THAT IS A -- A REASON

                    WHY THIS IS A GOOD PIECE OF LEGISLATION TO ENACT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, OF COURSE IF YOU WALK INTO A

                    MALL, AS AN EXAMPLE, THOSE ARE ALL COMMERCIAL LEASES, IN THIS CASE RETAIL

                    LEASES.  YOU NOTE THAT A LOT OF THE STORES HAVE VERY SUBSTANTIAL AND

                    EXPENSIVE, UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS.  I MEAN, YOU MIGHT PASS A SPORTING

                    GOODS STORE THAT HAS, YOU KNOW, A ROCK WALL ON IT, FOR EXAMPLE, OR THE

                    SHOE STORE WITH A SWISH OR ALL THOSE VERY CUSTOMIZED, AND SOMETIMES

                    VERY EXPENSIVE MODIFICATIONS TO THE PROPERTY.  UNDER THIS LAW,

                    WOULDN'T THE LANDLORD BE SUBJECT TO A LOSS OF RENTAL IF THEY WERE UNABLE

                    OR UNWILLING TO MAKE THOSE INVESTMENTS?

                                 MR. OTIS:  I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE

                     --  THE STATUTE HAS REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY ACTIONS.  SO THAT IN THE

                    MALL SITUATION WHERE THERE MAY BE PARTICULAR NEEDS IN THAT SPACE AND

                    YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO NECESSARILY PUT TWO SHOE STORES RIGHT NEXT TO EACH

                    OTHER, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS THAT ARE PARTICULAR AND GIVEN THE DISCRETION

                    GIVEN TO JUDGES IN THIS CASE -- IN THESE CASES, THE LANDLORD WOULD BE

                    GIVEN THE KIND OF DISCRETION TO MAKE INTELLIGENT BUSINESS JUDGMENTS FOR

                    EACH OF THOSE LOCATIONS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, WE TALKED JUST BRIEFLY ABOUT

                    LIQUIDATED DAMAGES.  MANY TIMES IN A CONTRACT THERE'LL BE A LIQUIDATED

                                         10



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DAMAGE CLAUSE, THE PARTIES RECOGNIZE THEY MAY NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE

                    WHAT THE DAMAGES WILL BE, BUT THEY HAVE A REASONABLE RANGE.  SO THEY

                    AGREE IN ADVANCE THAT IF ONE PARTY BREACHES, THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGES

                    WILL BE A CERTAIN AMOUNT.  DOES THIS OVERRIDE THAT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, TO THE EXTENT IT VIOLATES THE -- THE

                    PUBLIC POLICY SECTION OF THE EXISTING LAW, IT WOULD BE, AS I SAID EARLIER,

                    A FACT-BASED DETERMINATION DEPENDENT UPON THE NATURE OF HOW THOSE

                    LIQUIDATED DAMAGES WERE -- WERE DRAFTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  MANY COMMERCIAL LEASES AUTHORIZE

                    THE TENANT TO SUBLEASE, AND THERE'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS, OF COURSE.

                    DOES THIS LAW REQUIRE A TENANT WHO IS BREACHING THE LEASE THEMSELVES

                    TO ENGAGE IN A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO SUBLEASE IT IN AN EFFORT TO MITIGATE

                    DAMAGES THAT OCCUR TO THE LANDLORD CAUSED BY THE TENANT'S BREACH?

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, THE -- THE -- I DON'T THINK THAT THE

                    LAW COVERS THAT SITUATION PRECISELY, BUT THAT AGAIN, THE JUDGE WOULD BE

                    MAKING REASONABLE JUDGMENTS ABOUT THE LANDLORD'S SITUATION HERE AND

                    THE -- AS IT RELATES TO SUBLEASES, INITIAL -- THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY

                    SOMETIMES HAS LIMITATIONS ON SUBLEASES, AS WELL, EVEN IF THEY ALLOW

                    THEM, THERE'S USUALLY RESTRICTIONS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THOSE RESTRICTIONS OF COURSE ARE

                    QUITE COMMON IN MALL CONTEXT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT THE MALL TO BE

                    FILLED WITH COMPETITORS NEXT TO EACH OTHER, RIGHT?  AND SO TYPICALLY IN A

                    MALL LEASE NEGOTIATION, THERE'S AN AGREEMENT AMONGST ALL THE TENANTS

                    OVER WHO CAN BE IN AND WHO CAN'T BE IN, IF YOU WILL, FOR ALL THOSE

                    REASONS.  ARE THOSE FACTORS, THOSE RESTRICTIONS THAT APPLY ALSO AVAILABLE

                                         11



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TO THE COMMERCIAL LANDLORD TO SAY, THE REASON I COULDN'T RENT IT TO

                    ANOTHER FAST FOOD BUSINESS IS BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE AGREEMENTS WITH

                    OTHER TENANTS THAT THERE'D ONLY BE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF FAST FOOD

                    RESTAURANTS, AS AN EXAMPLE.

                                 MR. OTIS:  YES, I THINK I SPOKE TO THAT IN AN EARLIER

                    ANSWER, AS WELL, UNDER THE REASONABLE LANGUAGE IN THE LAW.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I APPRECIATE

                    YOUR COMMENTS.

                                 SIR, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND THANK YOU, MR. OTIS.

                                 MR. OTIS:  THANK YOU, MR. GOODELL.  ALWAYS A

                    PLEASURE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH A

                    RESIDENTIAL CONTEXT, IT'S NOT -- IT'S ACTUALLY UNUSUAL FOR A RESIDENTIAL

                    TENANT TO HAVE A -- A LAWYER INVOLVED IN THE LEASE NEGOTIATIONS, AND

                    TYPICALLY THE LEASE AGREEMENT THAT THE TENANT GETS IS A PRETTY STANDARD

                    LEASE, OFTEN IT'S A PREPRINTED FORM.  AND WHEN THE TENANT LEAVES IN A

                    RESIDENTIAL CONTEXT, VERY RARELY DOES A LANDLORD NEED TO DO ANYTHING

                    UNIQUE OR SPECIAL TO THE SPACE IN ORDER TO RE-RENT IT.  I MEAN, THEY MIGHT

                    HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP, THEY MIGHT HAVE TO REPAINT IT.  IN NEW YORK CITY

                    THEY MIGHT HAVE TO DO LEAD ABATEMENT THAT COSTS MORE THAN THE VALUE OF

                    THE APARTMENT, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING THERE'S NOT A LOT THAT THE LANDLORD

                    HAS TO DO.

                                         12



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE SITUATION IN A COMMERCIAL CONTEXT IS VERY

                    DIFFERENT.  IN A COMMERCIAL CONTEXT, BOTH PARTIES ARE TYPICALLY

                    REPRESENTED BY LAWYERS, EXPERIENCED LAWYERS.  AND THOSE LEASES ARE

                    TYPICALLY VERY CUSTOM.  AND DURING THAT LEASE NEGOTIATION, THE PARTIES

                    ARE CERTAINLY CAPABLE OF NEGOTIATING THAT THE LANDLORD WILL TRY TO RE-RENT,

                    THAT'S WHAT THEY CAN DO NOW.  AND IF THE LANDLORD PUSHES BACK AND SAYS

                    NO, I WON'T DO IT, IT'S REFLECTED IN THE LEASE RATE.  IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE

                    LANDLORD HAS THE DUTY TO MITIGATE, THE RENT'S GOING TO BE HIGHER BECAUSE

                    THE LANDLORD IS TAKING ON MORE RISK.  AND SO WE CAN'T STEP -- WE CAN'T

                    AND SHOULDN'T STEP IN THE MIDDLE AND REWRITE THE LEASE AGREEMENTS THAT

                    HAVE BEEN CAREFULLY NEGOTIATED WITH LAWYERS BETWEEN LARGE COMPANIES

                    TO CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  AS WE MENTIONED,

                    THESE LEASE AGREEMENTS OFTEN CONTAIN A LIQUIDATED DAMAGE CLAUSE AND

                    THEY SAY, LOOK, IF THE TENANT BREACHES, DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH TIME

                    WAS LEFT ON THE LEASE, THE TENANT AGREES IN ADVANCE TO PAY A CERTAIN

                    AMOUNT.  THAT HELPS BOTH THE TENANT AND THE LANDLORD.  IT LIMITS THE

                    LIABILITY TO THE TENANT TO AN AMOUNT THEY KNOW, AND IT HELPS THE

                    LANDLORD KNOW WHAT THEIR REVENUE STREAM IS GOING TO BE.

                                 NOW, UNLIKE A RESIDENTIAL UNIT, ALMOST ALL THESE LARGE

                    COMMERCIAL PROJECTS HAVE BANK FINANCING, AND THAT BANK FINANCING IS

                    SECURED IN LARGE PART BY THE COMMERCIAL LEASES THEMSELVES.  AND SO

                    WHEN A LARGE DEVELOPER GOES TO A BANK AND THEY SAY, I NEED, YOU KNOW,

                    SEVERAL MILLION DOLLARS TO BUILD THIS MALL, THE BANK SAYS, SHOW ME YOUR

                    LEASE AGREEMENTS SO THAT I KNOW YOU WILL HAVE ENOUGH REVENUE TO

                    COVER THE MORTGAGE.  WHAT THIS LAW DOES IS REWRITES ALL THOSE LEASE

                                         13



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AGREEMENTS, AND INSTEAD OF SAYING THAT THE TENANT HAS TO PAY LIQUIDATED

                    DAMAGES SO THE BANK LOAN CAN BE PAID, IT PUTS A BURDEN ON THE LANDLORD

                    WHO MAY OR MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO RE-RENT IT.  AND THAT RAISES THE RISK TO

                    BANKS AND MAY ACTUALLY JEOPARDIZE THE BANK FINANCING, OR BE REFLECTED

                    IN HIGHER INTEREST RATE.

                                 THIS IS A COMPLEX AREA, THE PARTIES ARE WELL

                    REPRESENTED.  THERE'S A LOT OF RAMIFICATIONS THAT GO WAY BEYOND WHAT

                    THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT AND DEALS WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL ABILITY OF A

                    COMMERCIAL COMPANY TO BUILD OUT THE SPACE TO MEET THE NEEDS OF A

                    PARTICULAR TENANT.  IF YOU ARE LIKE ME AND ROUTINELY STOP BY, SAY, AUTO

                    ZONE FOR PARTS, THAT'S ALMOST A WEEKLY EVENT FOR ME, YOU'LL KNOW,

                    THERE'S A GIANT SIGN THAT SAYS, AUTO ZONE, YOU'LL KNOW THE WAY IT'S SET

                    UP AND THE WAY THE STORAGE IS AND THE WAY THE SHELVING IS IS ALL UNIQUE,

                    AND THE LANDLORD OFTEN PARTICIPATES IN THOSE RENOVATIONS.  AND IF THAT

                    COMPANY PULLS THAT ONE STORE OUT, IT'S THE LANDLORD THAT HAS TO CLEAN IT

                    ALL UP AND TAKE IT OUT, AND THEY INCUR THOSE COSTS.  UNDER CURRENT LAW,

                    THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE TENANT WHO VIOLATED THE LEASE TO SAY THAT

                    THE LANDLORD SHOULD HAVE TAKEN MORE APPROPRIATE STEPS TO REDUCE THE

                    LOSS.  THIS CHANGES IT SO THAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS NOT ON A PERSON

                    WHO BREACHED THE CONTRACT, IT'S NOT ON THE PERSON WHO VIOLATED THE

                    CONTRACT, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE INNOCENT LANDLORD.

                                 MY FRIENDS, WE IN ALBANY SHOULD NOT PRETEND, AND I'M

                    NOT PRETENDING, THAT WE KNOW MORE THAN ALL THE HIGHLY REPRESENTED

                    PARTIES WHO ARE NEGOTIATING THESE CONTRACTS IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS

                    OF UNIQUE SITUATIONS AND HAVE US STEP IN AND REWRITE THEIR CONTRACTS.

                                         14



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND IF WE DO, PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, IT WILL LIKELY CHANGE ALL THE LEASE

                    NEGOTIATIONS, THE MORTGAGE INTEREST RATE, THE ABILITY TO BORROW THE

                    MONEY, THE RENT THAT'S CHARGED, AND ALL THOSE UNDERLYING FINANCIAL

                    FACTORS THAT THEY KNOW BETTER THAN WE DO AND THAT'S WHY WE SHOULDN'T

                    CHANGE THIS.

                                 AND FOR THOSE REASONS, THE LAST TIME WE HAD A VOTE ON

                    THIS, WE HAD 34 -- 48 NO VOTES, I BELIEVE, AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT

                    WE STILL LET COMMERCIAL ENTITIES NEGOTIATE THEIR OWN LEASES.  THANK YOU,

                    SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MR. FLOOD.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU.  WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD

                    FOR JUST A FEW QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. OTIS:  OF COURSE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU.  SO MY COLLEAGUE JUST

                    POINTED OUT AGAIN ON LINE 17 THAT THE -- THE BURDEN OF PROOF SITS ON THE

                    LANDLORD ON THIS.  SO IS IT SAFE TO PRESUME THAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON

                    FIGHTING THE FAIR MARKET VALUE OF THE PROPERTY COULD FALL ON THE

                    LANDLORD?

                                 MR. OTIS:  NO.  THIS SECTION -- THE SECTION YOU'RE

                    READING FROM IS EXISTING LAW IN RESIDENTIAL LEASES SO JUDGES AND LAWYERS

                    ARE DEALING WITH HANDLING THE ADMINISTRATION OF THIS PROVISION NOW,

                    AND WHAT WAS YOUR QUESTION AGAIN?

                                         15



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. FLOOD:  SO IT SAYS IT'S GOING TO BE, BECAUSE YOU

                    HAD SAID IT HERE THAT THEY HAVE TO -- IN LINE 17 IT'S TO TERMINATE THE

                    PREVIOUS TENANT'S LEASE TO MITIGATE DAMAGES, OTHERWISE THE TENANTS --

                    SORRY.  IF THE LANDLORD RENTS THE PREMISES AT FAIR MARKET VALUE OR AT A

                    RATE AGREED UPON, WHICHEVER IS LOWER.  SO THAT WOULD MEAN EITHER THE

                    RATE THAT THE LEASE GAVE OR THE FAIR MARKET VALUE IF THAT FAIR MARKET

                    VALUE IS LOWER THAN THE AGREED UPON RATE.

                                 MR. OTIS:  YEAH.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  SO I'M ASSUMING IT WOULD BE UPON THE

                    LANDLORD TO DETERMINE WHAT THAT FAIR MARKET VALUE IS IF THAT BURDEN OF

                    PROOF IS ON THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  ULTIMATELY IF IT'S LITIGATED, THIS IS EXISTING

                    LAW SO JUDGES ARE ALREADY REFEREEING THESE KINDS OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

                    THE WAY I READ THIS CIRCUMSTANCE IS IF THEY GET FULL -- THE FULL VAL -- THE

                    FULL RENT THAT WAS IN THE LEASE, THEN THE -- THE TENANT IS NO LONGER HAS TO

                    PAY BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING THE FULL THING.  IF THEY'RE SHORT, I'M NOT

                    TOTALLY SURE HOW JUDGES ARE ADMINISTERING THAT, BUT THE FAIR MARKET

                    VALUE PIECE OF THIS WOULD BE DETERMINED BY THE JUDGE.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OKAY, OKAY.  BUT IF THE BURDEN OF

                    PROOF IS ON THE -- THE LANDLORD TO DO THIS IS, THE JUDGE ISN'T GO OUT TO

                    DETERMINE WHAT THAT IS, THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THE ONUS ON THOSE

                    ATTORNEYS, AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THIS IS SOMEONE WHO HANDLES A LOT OF

                    REAL ESTATE IN MY PRIVATE PRACTICE, THAT TO DETERMINE THE FAIR MARKET

                    VALUE OF COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES IS FAR MORE EXPENSIVE AND FAR MORE

                    DIFFICULT THAN FINDING A FAIR MARKET VALUE OF A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY.

                                         16



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. OTIS:  THE GOOD FAITH EFFORT REQUIREMENT IN THE

                    LAW IS PRIMARILY RESTS UPON MAKING THE GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO LEASE THE

                    PROPERTY.  AND SO I -- I -- I THINK YOU'RE NOT FOCUSING ON THE RIGHT

                    LANGUAGE -- THE CORRECT LANGUAGE FROM --

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OH, NO, NO, NO.  I UNDERSTAND WHAT

                    YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I'M FOCUSING ON EXACTLY WHAT I'M THINKING AS AS

                    SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, WHO'S BEEN IN COURT WHERE

                    THERE'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, WHERE I'VE HAD TENANTS WHO ARE LANDLORDS WHO

                    HAD BUILT THEM AN ENTIRE RESTAURANT CUSTOM FITTINGS, ALL THESE THINGS FOR

                    THE TENANT TO BREACH LATER ON AND THEN BE STUCK WITH A STANDARD SIMILAR

                    TO THIS.  THEY WOULD LOSE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY AND THEN

                    DISCOURAGE REINVESTMENT.  NOT ONLY THAT, YOU WOULD BE HELL-BENT TO

                    FIND SOMEONE THAT COULD NOW FALL INTO THOSE SPECIFIC PARAMETERS OF THAT

                    LEASE.  SO...

                                 MR. OTIS:  IN YOUR -- YOUR -- WHAT YOU DEALT WITH,

                    YOU'RE DEALING WITH A RESIDENTIAL TENANT OR A COMMERCIAL TENANT?

                                 MR. FLOOD:  COMMERCIAL TENANT.

                                 MR. OTIS:  OKAY.  THIS SECTION OF LAW DOESN'T GET

                    APPLIED COMMERCIAL TENANTS.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  I UNDERSTAND.  BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT

                    THE -- FROM WHAT I'M SAYING IS I UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO

                    RELEASE A SPECIFIC SITE THAT HAS ALL DIFFERENT MODIFICATIONS.  SO LIKE IN AN

                    EXAMPLE OF A RESTAURANT, IT'S NOT AS EASY JUST TO GET MAYBE IT'S NOT OPEN

                    LIKE A HOUSING, YOU CAN JUST GET ANYONE.  IF IT'S PRE-FITTED TO HIT A

                    RESTAURANT, YOU PROBABLY NEED ANOTHER RESTAURANT COMING IN THERE AND

                                         17



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    EACH RESTAURANT IS DIFFERENT.  SO THE FAIR MARKET VALUE MAY BE DIFFICULT

                    TO DETERMINE, AND WHAT I'M SAYING IS WHO'S GOING TO BEAR THE COST OF

                    HAVING TO DO THAT, BECAUSE I ASSURE YOU WHEN YOU GO INTO JUDGE'S

                    CHAMBERS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT FOR YOU BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO

                    COST MONEY, THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THAT ONUS ON SOMEONE; APPRAISERS, ET

                    CETERA.

                                 MR. OTIS:  I WOULD HOPE AND I THINK THE LAW INTENDS

                    THAT THE JUDGE MEDIATE AND REFEREE THOSE SITUATIONS, WILL ASK QUESTIONS

                    AND DO THE FACT-FINDING TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  WELL, I UNDERSTAND BUT EVEN ON THE

                    RESIDENTIAL SIDE, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO DETERMINE THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTY,

                    A JUDGE IS GOING TO SAY WELL, I WANT TO SEE AN APPRAISAL.

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, THIS IS WHAT JUDGES DO.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  AGAIN --

                                 MR. OTIS:  I MEAN THAT -- THAT IS -- THAT'S WHAT WE ASK

                    JUDGES TO DO.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  AND SO BUT NOW THE ONUS IS NOW ON

                    THE LAND -- THE TENANT.  I MEAN I APOLOGIZE.  THE ONUS IS NOW ON THE

                    LANDLORD TO DETERMINE THAT.  SO NOW THE LANDLORD HASN'T BREACHED BUT

                    NOW THE LANDLORD HAS TO REACH INTO HIS POCKET TO PAY FOR AN APPRAISAL TO

                    PROVE TO THE COURT WHAT HE'S BEING OWED AND THEN POTENTIALLY TAKE LESS

                    THAN WHAT THEY HAD AGREED UPON.  THAT'S JUST -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU,

                    BUT THAT TO ME SOUNDS LIKE IT'S JUST UNBELIEVABLY UNFAIR TO A LANDLORD

                    WHO DID NOTHING BUT THE TERMS OF THEIR LEASE.  I MEAN IS THAT A FAIR

                    ASSESSMENT?

                                         18



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. OTIS:  NO.  I THINK WHAT IS THE THING TO FOCUS ON

                    HERE IS THE PUBLIC POLICY GOAL OF NOT HAVING UNNECESSARILY VACANT

                    COMMERCIAL SPACE, AND THE NEGATIVE IMPACT THAT THAT HAS ON OTHER

                    BUSINESSES AND ON THE ECONOMIC HEALTH OF A NEIGHBORHOOD OR A MALL.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OKAY.  I --

                                 MR. OTIS:  SO THERE IS -- WE'RE MAKING PUBLIC POLICY

                    JUDGMENTS WHEN WE DEAL WITH LEGISLATION LIKE THIS AND THAT IS WHY

                    SOME OF THE TRADEOFFS THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT ARE REALLY GOING TO

                    GET MEDIATED AND REFEREED BY A JUDGE AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  WELL, I'M JUST CONFUSED ABOUT THIS

                    BECAUSE THE ECONOMIC HARM THAT LANDS ON A SPECIFIC, YOU KNOW,

                    LANDLORD THAT OWNS SAY A STRIP MALL, HE'S THE ONE TAKING THAT FINANCIAL

                    BURDEN.  SO WHY ARE WE PUTTING ALL THE ONUS ON HIM TO REMEDIATE A

                    SITUATION THAT HE WOULD'VE DONE ANYWAY IN CONSTRUCTION WHERE THERE'S

                    NOW WOULD BE MORE HELPFUL TO HIM BECAUSE HONESTLY, THE LANDLORDS

                    KNOW HAVING VACANT PROPERTIES ON THEIR SITE IS GOING TO BE LESS

                    BENEFICIAL THAN HAVING A FULL SITE, BUT RIGHT NOW YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING

                    WE DON'T CARE THAT YOU BREACHED, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE YOU TO ACCEPT

                    LESS AND THEN ADD ON TOP OF THAT ALL OF THE COSTS OF DETERMINING WHAT,

                    YOU KNOW, HAVE YOU BEEN TRYING TO RECOVER.  IT SEEMS DETRIMENTAL AND

                    SUBSTANTIALLY MORE DETRIMENTAL TO THE LANDLORD WHO AT THIS POINT IT

                    SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS BILL IS TRYING TO PROTECT, THAN IT IS TO

                    THE BREACHING PARTY.

                                 MR. OTIS:  WELL, WE CAN HAVE AN HONEST

                    DISAGREEMENT ABOUT HOW WE READ THE FACT SITUATION THERE.  I RESPECT

                                         19



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    YOUR VIEW, BUT I -- I DISAGREE WITH -- WITH THE ASSUMPTIONS THERE.  I

                    THINK THAT THIS IS NECESSARILY -- NOT NECESSARILY AN ECONOMIC LOSS FOR THE

                    LANDLORD.  IT MAY WORK OUT THAT HE DOES BETTER BY GETTING A NEW TENANT

                    IN THERE AS OPPOSED TO LEAVING IT VACANT AND HOPING HE'S GOING TO BE

                    ABLE TO RECOVER FROM A TENANT WHO LEFT AND -- AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE

                    ABLE TO PAY THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS ULTIMATELY.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL, PLEASE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    FLOOD.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  AND I THANK YOU TO MY COLLEAGUE FOR

                    HIS ANSWERS.  AGAIN, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE.  AS

                    SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN LITIGATION WITH COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES, YOU

                    KNOW, BY -- BY SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF TO THE PARTY SEEKING

                    DAMAGES WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE CONTRACTS THAT LAYS IT OUT AND YOU

                    ALREADY HAVE A LEASE WITH TERMS AND AGREEMENT AND NOW YOU'RE ASKING

                    THEM TO FLIP THE COST OF LITIGATION, FLIP THE COST OF ANY APPRAISALS, THINGS

                    OF THAT NATURE, THIS IS JUST ANTI-BUSINESS.  I MEAN IN A STATE THAT'S RATED

                    50 OUT OF 50 FOR THE LEAST BUSINESS-FRIENDLY, WE SHOULD BE DOING THINGS

                    TO HELP ENCOURAGE AND STIMULATE BUSINESS, NOT DRIVE MORE PEOPLE AWAY

                    AND MORE PEOPLE AWAY FROM TRYING TO DO BUSINESS IN THIS STATE.

                    THOUGH I UNDERSTAND AND I BELIEVE THAT THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL HAS, YOU

                    KNOW, GENERALLY GOOD INTENTIONS, I THINK THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES

                    OF THIS LEGISLATION ARE GOING TO MAKE IT HARDER AND HARDER FOR

                    BUSINESSES TO OPERATE IN THIS STATE.  SO I WILL BE IN THE NEGATIVE AND I

                                         20



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MR. MCGOWAN.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL

                    THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. OTIS:  YES, I WILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  THANK YOU, SIR.  I JUST HAVE A

                    COUPLE QUESTIONS JUST TO CLARIFY SOME OF THE -- THE STATEMENTS THAT WERE

                    MADE BY MY COLLEAGUES.  SO ESSENTIALLY HOW THIS WOULD WORK, A

                    BREACHING TENANT, THE LANDLORD WOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAKE GOOD FAITH

                    EFFORTS TO MITIGATE THAT LOSS, AND IF IN FACT COULD RECOVER LET'S SAY THE --

                    THE VALUE OF THE RENT THAT WAS OWED BY THE BREACHING TENANT WITH A NEW

                    TENANT, THERE WOULD BE NO -- ESSENTIALLY NO CAUSE OF ACTION.  THAT

                    WOULD BE A PART OF RECOVERY IF THE LANDOWNER WAS ABLE TO RECOVER THE

                    SAME VALUE.  IS THAT -- IS THAT FAIR?  IS THAT HOW THIS WOULD WORK?

                                 MR. OTIS:  CORRECT.  IN FACT THE EXISTING LAW IN THE

                    RESIDENTIAL SETTING AT THAT POINT IT WOULD TERMINATE THE OLD LEASE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SO THE FAIR MARKET VALUE, WHAT IF

                    THERE HAD BEEN A CHANGE?  AND I KNOW WE CAN'T PREDICT EVERY SITUATION

                    CERTAINLY HERE IN THIS DEBATE, BUT WHAT IF THERE WAS A CHANGE AND THE

                    FAIR MARKET VALUE WAS ACTUALLY LESS THAN THE RENT THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO

                    BE PAID BY THE NOW BREACHING TENANT?  JUST USING SIMPLE NUMBERS, LET'S

                    SAY THE RENT IS $5,000, A TENANT BREACHES, IS NO LONGER PAYING THAT, THE

                                         21



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LANDLORD THEN CAN RENT ON THE FAIR MARKET VALUE, LET'S SAY IS 4,000.  AND

                    NOW AS A NEW TENANT WHO'S PAYING 4,000, THAT DELTA, THAT $1,000

                    DIFFERENCE, WOULD THE LANDLORD BE ABLE TO BRING AN ACTION TO RECOVER

                    THAT IN DAMAGES FROM THE -- FROM THE BEACHING TENANT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  YES.  THAT IS THE WAY, DUTY TO MITIGATE,

                    OPERATE SO THE -- THE ORIGINAL TENANT WOULD STILL BE LIABLE FOR THAT

                    DIFFERENCE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  WHAT ABOUT ANY COSTS

                    INCURRED BY THE LANDLORD AS A RESULT OF THE TENANT'S BREACH?  FOR

                    INSTANCE, ANY BROKER'S FEES THAT HAVE TO BE PAID IN TRYING TO GET A NEW

                    TENANT, AGAIN, FOLLOWING THIS DUTY TO MITIGATE OR ANY OTHER COSTS LIKE

                    THAT?  WOULD THAT BE SOMETHING THAT THE LANDLORD COULD SEEK TO RECOVER

                    FROM THE BREACHING TENANT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  AGAIN, THIS IS DEFINED IN THE EXISTING

                    STATUTE.  TAKE REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY ACTIONS TO RENT THE PREMISES,

                    AND THE OTHER LINE IN HERE THAT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE, ACCORDING TO THE

                    LANDLORD'S RESOURCES AND ABILITIES.  SO THE -- THE LAW AS WAS WRITTEN IN

                    2019 LEFT FLEXIBILITY FOR JUDGES TO BE FAIR AND REASONABLE AS IT RELATES TO

                    EXERCISING THAT PROVISION.  AND I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT BEFORE 1995, THE

                    LAW IN NEW YORK STATE WAS RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES AND COMMERCIAL

                    PROPERTIES WERE HANDLED EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW AS IT RELATED TO THIS

                    ISSUE, DUTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES, DUTY TO MAKE REASONABLE EFFORTS TO

                    RELEASE A PROPERTY.  AND WE ONLY NOW SINCE 2019 WHEN WE BROUGHT IT

                    BACK TO RESIDENTIAL HAVE LEFT COMMERCIAL HANGING OUT THERE.  FOR THE

                    REST OF THE COUNTRY, THE GENERAL RULE IS THE DUTY TO MITIGATE IS HANDLED

                                         22



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE WAY THAT I'M PROPOSING WE EQUALIZE IT HERE, AND THIS IS A

                    LONGSTANDING -- DUTY TO MITIGATE DAMAGES IS, AS I KNOW YOU KNOW AS AN

                    ACCOMPLISHED ATTORNEY, IS SORT OF ONE OF THE PILLAR PRINCIPLES OF

                    CONTRACTS LAW.  AND AGAIN, WHILE -- WHY COURSE CREDIT WILL BE PROVIDED

                    TO EVERYONE WHO CHECKS IN FOR THIS DEBATE, THIS IS ONE OF THE

                    LONGSTANDING PRINCIPLES OF CONTRACTS LAW THAT WE'RE REALLY JUST SEEKING

                    TO REASSERT IN THE COMMERCIAL SETTING THE WAY IT USED TO BE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  THANK YOU, SIR.  OKAY.  I

                    THINK THAT ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS, I APPRECIATE IT.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    MCGOWAN.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THE GOAL

                    HERE AND I APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S COMMENTS AND THE INTENT HERE, AND

                    I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, THE DUTY TO MITIGATE IS SOMETHING

                    THAT I THINK REASONABLY IS PURSUED.  OBVIOUSLY IF YOU HAVE A LANDLORD

                    WITH RENTING A COMMERCIAL SPACE, COMMERCIAL TENANT BREACHES,

                    ABANDONS THE PROPERTY, LITIGATION IS COSTLY, LITIGATION PURSUING THAT RENT

                    THAT IS OWED, PURSUING A REMEDY FOR THAT BREACH, I THINK A REASONABLE

                    LANDLORD WOULD PROBABLY SAY LOOK, MAYBE THERE'S A WAY I CAN MITIGATE

                    THIS FINDING A NEW TENANT, BUT THERE'S COSTS INCURRED WITH THAT.  AND I

                    THINK THAT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COMMERCIAL SPACE AND ALBEIT

                    MIGHT HAVE BEEN HANDLED BACK, YOU KNOW, PRE '95 OR IN OTHER STATES,

                    WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO A COMMERCIAL RELATIONSHIP IS DEALING WITH

                    PRETTY MUCH IN EVERY SITUATION WHAT WE CALL SOPHISTICATED ENTITIES WHO

                                         23



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ARE REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL WHO CAN NEGOTIATE ALL THESE THINGS UNDER

                    CURRENT LAW.  SO I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE STATE, US AS A BODY STEPPING

                    IN AND TELLING SOPHISTICATED PARTIES, COMMERCIAL ENTITIES HOW TO HANDLE

                    THEIR BUSINESS, AND I THINK THAT THEY'RE CERTAINLY CAPABLE OF DOING THAT.

                    I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO -- TO BE DOING THAT.  I UNDERSTAND IT AND I

                    UNDERSTAND THE GOAL HERE FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE, BUT I THINK, TOO,

                    WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES WHEN -- WHEN YOU BREACH A

                    CONTRACT AND CERTAINLY TO A COMMERCIAL ENTITY SHOULD KNOW THAT AND BE

                    AWARE OF THAT.  SO I THINK THAT MITIGATION IS PROBABLY GOING TO HAPPEN

                    IN MOST INSTANCES ANYWAY.  I THINK THAT MITIGATION, SOME TYPE OF

                    DAMAGES PROVISION WOULD BE INVOLVED AND CAN BE NEGOTIATED WITHIN A

                    CONTRACT ALREADY, WE DON'T NEED THIS LAW TO DO THAT.  AND I THINK

                    REQUIRING IT IS GOING TO RESULT IN SOME UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES RATHER

                    THAN ENFORCING CONSEQUENCES FOR A BREACHING PARTY.  SO FOR THOSE

                    REASONS I WILL BE IN THE NEGATIVE.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MRS.

                    PEOPLES-STOKES FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, IF YOU

                    COULD PLEASE CALL THE RULES COMMITTEE TO THE SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE

                    ROOM IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  RULES COMMITTEE TO

                    THE SPEAKER'S CONFERENCE ROOM IMMEDIATELY.

                                 MS. BYRNES.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  THANK YOU.  WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                                         24



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. OTIS:  YES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  I BELIEVE IF I HEARD CORRECTLY A

                    MOMENT AGO YOU HAD INDICATED, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THAT IF

                    THERE IS A NEW TENANT AND IT RENTS FOR LESS SO THAT THERE'S STILL LIKE IT WAS

                    5,000, THEY RENT FOR 4-, SO THERE'S STILL $1,000 LESS THAT THAT WOULD

                    EFFECTIVELY -- OR THAT THEY COULD STILL -- THE LANDLORD COULD STILL SUE FOR

                    THAT $1,000 TO THE FORMER TENANT.  WAS THAT CORRECT?

                                 MR. OTIS:  I DON'T KNOW --

                                 MS. BYRNES:  I THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID BUT

                    MAYBE I'M INCORRECT.

                                 MR. OTIS:  I DON'T KNOW THAT A LAWSUIT IS NECESSARILY

                    NECESSARY IN THAT THE LEAVING TENANT STILL HAS THAT OBLIGATION.  THEY

                    WERE NOT RELEASED OF THEIR OBLIGATION.  SO IF YOU BROUGHT IN SOMEBODY

                    AT A -- A LESSER RENT, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD BEEN DISCHARGED FOR PART OF

                    THEIR OBLIGATION BUT NOT ALL OF THEIR OBLIGATION.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  THE REASON --

                                 MR. OTIS:  THE WAY THE STATUTE READS.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  AND THE REASON I'M ASKING AND UNLESS

                    I'M MISREADING THE STATUTE, IT LOOKS LIKE IT INDICATES THAT -- THAT IT WOULD

                    -- BACK ON LINE 14 AND 15, THAT ONCE IN EFFECT A NEW LEASE, IT WOULD

                    TERMINATE THE PREVIOUS TENANT'S LEASE AND MITIGATE DAMAGES OTHERWISE

                    RECOVERABLE AGAINST THE PREVIOUS TENANT BECAUSE OF THE TENANTS VACATING

                    OF THE PREMISES.  I WAS READING THAT SECTION TO INDICATE THAT -- THAT

                                         25



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BASICALLY THAT WOULD LET THE PREVIOUS TENANT OFF THE HOOK AND THAT THERE

                    COULD BE NO FURTHER LITIGATION.

                                 MR. OTIS:  I READ IT THE OTHER WAY, BUT I THINK AFTER

                    THIS DEBATE IS OVER, MAYBE YOU AND I CAN SHARE A RIDE OVER TO ALBANY

                    LAW SCHOOL AND WE'LL GET A RULING.

                                 MS. BYRNES: (LAUGHTER), THAT -- THAT WOULD WORK.

                    NO, BUT ANYWAY, THAT IS A CONCERN AND HOPEFULLY -- BUT YOUR -- YOUR

                    INTENTION WITH THIS BILL IS THAT A SUBSEQUENT LEASE, LOWER AMOUNT, WOULD

                    BASICALLY END THE -- ANY ABILITY OF THE LANDLORD TO GO AFTER THE TENANT.

                    OR YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO AFTER THE TENANT -- TENANT ONE,

                    TENANT NUMBER ONE.

                                 MR. OTIS:  THE -- THE TENANT IS NOT FULLY UP -- IS NOT

                    FULLY DISCHARGED OF THEIR OBLIGATION UNLESS THE NEW TENANT IS PAYING

                    THAT FULL AMOUNT AS I -- AS I READ THE SECTION BUT...

                                 MS. BYRNES:  ALL RIGHT.  AND THAT'S THE WAY YOU

                    READ IT AND YOUR INTENT AS THE SPONSOR IS THAT THE LANDLORD COULD STILL GO

                    AFTER TENANT NUMBER ONE FOR THEIR LOSSES.

                                 MR. OTIS:  AGAIN, WE'RE DEALING WITH AN EXISTING

                    SECTION OF LAW THAT -- THAT IS BEING REFEREED BY JUDGES TODAY AS IT RELATES

                    TO RESIDENTIAL LEASES.  I -- I MEAN THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS FOR -- FOR

                    EVERYBODY LISTENING, I DON'T THINK THIS IS MUCH OF A BURDEN.  ALL THIS

                    DOES IS REQUIRE GOOD FAITH, SIMPLE, REASONABLE EFFORTS TO TRY AND

                    RE-LEASE THE PROPERTY.  IF THEY CAN'T DO IT, THE ORIGINAL TENANT WHO LEFT IS

                    STILL OBLIGATED TO PAY WHAT THEY WALKED AWAY FROM AND WHATEVER

                    FOLLOW-THROUGH IS INVOLVED WITH THAT IS STILL GOING TO GO ON.  SO I JUST

                                         26



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DON'T THINK IT IS THAT GREAT A BURDEN, BECAUSE THE WAY THE LAW WAS

                    WRITTEN IN 2019 DIDN'T SET THE BURDEN THAT HIGH.  IT HAS ALL THESE, YOU

                    KNOW, REASONABLE BEST OF ABILITIES KINDS OF LANGUAGE.  SO I -- I -- I

                    THINK ACTUALLY EVERYONE'S COMFORT LEVEL SHOULD BE BETTER, NOT WORSE

                    BASED UPON THE DISCUSSION THAT WE'VE HAD IN THIS DIALOGUE TODAY.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION.  THOSE WHO

                    SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MRS.

                    PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, THE

                    DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF

                    LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD DESIRE TO BE AN

                    EXCEPTION.  THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR SEATS.  THANK YOU,

                    SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                         27



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. FLOOD TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  AND WITH ALL

                    DUE RESPECT TO MY COLLEAGUE, I DO APPRECIATE HIM, YOU KNOW, TAKING

                    THE TIME TO DEBATE THIS.  THE PLAIN LANGUAGE IN THE BILL INDICATES

                    OTHERWISE (INAUDIBLE).  WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IF A LANDLORD CAN MITIGATE

                    DAMAGES FOR TAKING A LESS AMOUNT.  IT SAYS IT RIGHT HERE IN THE STATUTE.  IF

                    THE LANDLORD RENTS THE PREMISES AT FAIR MARKET VALUE OR AT THE RATE

                    AGREED TO DURING THE TERM OF THE TENANCY, THE NEW TENANT'S LEASE SHALL

                    ONCE IN EFFECT TERMINATE THE PREVIOUS TENANT'S LEASE AND MITIGATE

                    DAMAGES WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE BE RECOVERABLE AGAINST THE PREVIOUS

                    TENANT.  MEANING THAT IF HE FINDS SOMETHING FOR FAIR MARKET VALUE

                    WHICH IS THEN LOWER THAN THE PREVIOUS LEASE, THAT ONCE THEY FALL INTO

                    THAT TERM, OTHERWISE RECOVERABLE DAMAGES WOULD BE MITIGATED.

                    MEANING THAT THE LANDLORD IS STUCK FOR THE MONEY THAT HE HAS LOST UNDER

                    THIS.  THAT'S -- FOR THAT REASON I VOTED NO AND I ENCOURAGE MY

                    COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MR. FLOOD IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. OTIS TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE.

                                 MR. OTIS:  JUST A LITTLE -- A LITTLE FOLLOW-UP ON A FEW

                    OF THESE THINGS.  ON THE ISSUE OF LAWYERS BEING PART OF THE THING, WE IN

                    OTHER CASES - AND I DID A BILL A FEW YEARS AGO HAVING TO DO WITH

                    YELLOWSTONE INJUNCTIONS FOR YOU COMMERCIAL LAWYERS IN THE AUDIENCE.

                    PUTTING BACK THE -- THE RIGHT FOR -- THAT WERE -- WAS TAKEN AWAY BY THE

                    COURT OF APPEALS, AND IN THAT CASE THE LEGISLATURE SOMETIMES SAYS

                                         28



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HAVING LOTS OF LAWYERS INVOLVED DOESN'T TAKE AWAY THE ABILITY OF THE

                    LEGISLATURE TO MAKE PUBLIC POLICY DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT RIGHTS

                    LANDLORDS AND TENANTS HAVE IN THESE SITUATIONS, AND SO ANOTHER ONE OF

                    THE ISSUES THAT WE DISCUSSED IN -- IN OUR -- OUR TIME TOGETHER.

                                 ON THE -- ON THE ISSUE HERE, IF THEY RECEIVE THE ISSUE

                    THAT MR. FLOOD JUST MENTIONED, IF THEY RECEIVE LESS THAN FAIR MARKET

                    VALUE I ASSUME IN THE PLAIN READING OF THIS STATUTE, THAT THE TENANT THAT

                    LEFT WOULD STILL BE OBLIGATED FOR SOME LEVEL OF DIFFERENCE BUT THIS WOULD

                    GET MEDIATED BY THE JUDGE.  SO I THINK THIS IS A GOOD LEGISLATION.  I

                    THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO THE REFORM THAT WE DID FOR RESIDENTIAL TENANTS,

                    FOR COMMERCIAL TENANTS, RESTORE THE LAW TO WHAT IT WAS PRE-1995 AND

                    ACTUALLY, THIS IS BETTER THAN THE LAW BEFORE 1995 BECAUSE THE REASONABLE

                    LANGUAGE THAT WE PUT IN IN 2019 DID NOT EXIST IN SORT OF THE COMMON

                    LAW VERSION OF DUTY TO MITIGATE THAT EXISTED BEFORE 1995.  THANK YOU.  I

                    VOTE AYE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MR. OTIS IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MS. SIMON TO EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE.

                                 MS. SIMON:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I WANTED TO

                    JUST SAY THAT NUMBER ONE, I COMMEND THE SPONSOR FOR INTRODUCING THIS

                    BILL.  I'M HAPPY TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF IT AND TO JUST POINT OUT THAT AT LEAST

                    IN MY CAREER AS A LAWYER, I NEVER REPRESENTED A PLAINTIFF WHO DIDN'T

                    HAVE TO MITIGATE DAMAGES.  I DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY THAT SHOULD NOT

                    ALSO BE THE CASE FOR A COMMERCIAL LANDLORD.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MS. SIMON IN THE

                                         29



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 9, RULES REPORT NO. 157, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. S06635, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 157, SENATOR RAMOS (REYES, DINOWITZ, EPSTEIN, DESTEFANO,

                    SIMON, JEAN-PIERRE, COLTON, DARLING, FORREST, CRUZ, BURGOS, DILAN,

                    RAGA, JACOBSON, L. ROSENTHAL, SANTABARBARA, LUCAS, OTIS, SILLITTI).  AN

                    ACT TO AMEND THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION LAW, IN RELATION TO CLAIMS

                    FOR MENTAL INJURY PREMISED UPON EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  AN EXPLANATION HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MS. REYES:  THIS BILL WOULD EXPAND THE ABILITY TO

                    FOLLOW WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIM FOR MENTAL INJURY, PREMISED

                    UPON EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS INCURRED AT WORK TO ALL

                    EMPLOYEES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  MS. WALSH.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. REYES:  YES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER EACHUS:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                         30



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. WALSH:  SO CAN YOU -- COULD YOU JUST SPEAK A

                    LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT OUR CURRENT LAW IN WORKERS' COMPENSATION

                    ALLOWS?  AND THEN WE CAN GET INTO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THIS BILL

                    CHANGES THAT.

                                 MS. REYES:  SURE.  SO THE CURRENT WORKERS'

                    COMPENSATION, THIS SECTION OF THE LAW, GIVES THIS ABILITY TO CLAIM

                    MENTAL EXTRAORDINARY MENTAL STRESS INJURY TO POLICE OFFICERS,

                    FIREFIGHTERS, EMERGENCY AND MEDICAL TECHNICIANS, PARAMEDICS,

                    EMERGENCY DISPATCHERS OR OTHER PERSONS CERTIFIED TO PROVIDE MEDICAL

                    CARE IN EMERGENCIES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  AND SO I GUESS PEOPLE WILL DO

                    IT THIS WAY.  SO THEN THIS BILL THEN REMOVES THAT, JUST STRIKES THE WHO THE

                    PERSON'S GOT TO BE --

                                 MS. REYES:  CORRECT.

                                 MS. WALSH: -- AS FAR AS THEIR JOB AND EXPANDS IT TO

                    ANY EMPLOYEE, RIGHT?  CLERICAL EMPLOYEE, YOU KNOW, ANYBODY.

                                 MS. REYES:  IT REPLACES IT WITH THE WORD WORKER.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH, IT REPLACES IT WITH THE WORD

                    WORKER SO IT'S ANY WORKER AT ALL.  AND UNDER OUR EXISTING LAW, WHY DID

                    WE PREVIOUSLY, IF YOU KNOW, WHY DID WE HAVE IT LIMITED TO POLICE

                    OFFICERS, FIREFIGHTERS, EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIANS OR PARAMEDICS,

                    FOR EXAMPLE, WHO ARE PROVIDING MEDICAL CARE IN EMERGENCIES OR AN

                    EMERGENCY DISPATCHER, TOO, I THINK IS INCLUDED.

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH.  THAT DELINEATION WAS ADDED IN

                    THE 2017 BUDGET.  I -- I COULDN'T TELL YOU THE REASONS WHY THEY CHOSE

                                         31



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THOSE SPECIFIC PROFESSIONS, BUT WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE PROFESSIONS THAT

                    EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS AS WELL THAT WE ARE

                    LOOKING TO CAPTURE BY STRIKING THIS OUT AND REPLACING IT WITH THE WORD

                    WORKER.

                                 MS. WALSH:  BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT THAT WAS THE

                    REASON WHY THOSE JOBS -- THOSE TYPES OF JOBS WERE PUT IN THERE WITH AN

                    UNDERSTANDING -- JUST LIKE WE HAVE IN OTHER AREAS OF THE LAW, LIKE A

                    HEART PRESUMPTION FOR A FIREFIGHTER OR A POLICE OFFICER.  THE IDEA THAT

                    YOU'RE -- YOU'RE RESPONDING AND YOU'RE UNDER EXTRAORDINARY STRESS IN THE

                    WAY YOU'RE DOING YOUR JOB, SO THE IDEA OF HAVING A PURELY MENTAL

                    HEALTH INJURY OR A PTSD, FOR EXAMPLE, WITHOUT PHYSICAL INJURY WOULD

                    NOT BE, YOU KNOW, SURPRISING IF YOU'RE IN THOSE TYPES OF FIELDS, RIGHT?

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH, AND I THINK -- LOOK, WHEN WE

                    WRITE LAWS SOMETIMES WE MISS SOME THINGS AND THAT IS THE PROCESS AND

                    THE REASON WHY WE'RE HERE EVERY YEAR, RIGHT, TO AMEND LAWS THAT NEED

                    SOME WORK.  THIS STATUTE WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THOSE WHERE THERE ARE

                    WORKERS WHO EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AT WORK THAT WE DIDN'T

                    CAPTURE.  AND LATELY, PARTICULARLY POST-PANDEMIC, WE'VE SEEN HOW THERE

                    ARE INSTANCES OF EXTRAORDINARY STRESS THAT CAN LEAD TO PTSD.  AND I

                    THINK THAT WHEN WE DEBATED THIS BILL LAST YEAR, WE TALKED ABOUT THE

                    SUPERMARKET WORKERS IN BUFFALO AT THE TOPS SUPERMARKET WHO

                    EXPERIENCED EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AFTER AN ACTIVE SHOOTER.  ABSOLUTELY

                    NURSES AND HEALTHCARE WORKERS WHO ARE NOT CAPTURED UNDER FIRST

                    RESPONDER BUT EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS DURING -- DURING THE

                    SURGE OF COVID.  WE ALSO HEARD FROM CORRECTION OFFICERS WHO AREN'T --

                                         32



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WHO AREN'T CAPTURED IN THE CURRENT LANGUAGE WHO EXPERIENCE

                    EXTRAORDINARY STRESS EVERY DAY IN -- IN THEIR WORK SETTING.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  AND JUST MOVING AHEAD

                    LOOKING AT THE EXISTING LAW, THE EXISTING LAW REQUIRES THAT YOU -- THAT

                    YOU SHOWED THAT YOUR -- YOUR PURELY MENTAL INJURY OCCURRED, YOU

                    KNOW, IN A WORK-RELATED EMERGENCY.  AND THEN IN THIS BILL, THAT

                    LANGUAGE IS STRUCK SO IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE INCURRED IN A WORK-RELATED

                    EMERGENCY, CORRECT?

                                 MS. REYES:  NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

                                 MS. WALSH:  I THOUGHT THAT THAT HAD BEEN STRUCK

                    OUT.  YOU KNOW, WORK-RELATED EMERGENCY.  LINE 8.

                                 MS. REYES:  THERE IS STILL A BURDEN OF PROOF THAT THE

                    WORKER WOULD HAVE TO MEET, BUT THE REASON WHY IT WAS STRUCK OUT IS

                    BECAUSE SOME WORK-RELATED STRESS DOESN'T RISE TO THE LEVEL OF AN

                    EMERGENCY, BUT IT'S STILL A STRESSFUL EVENT.

                                 MS. WALSH:  SO IN OTHER WORDS IT MIGHT BE

                    CUMULATIVE STRESS BUILT OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, NOT ONE -- ONE

                    EMERGENCY CALL OR ONE DAY IN THE LIFE THAT CREATED THAT -- THAT INJURY,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. REYES:  POTENTIALLY IT COULD BE, BUT THIS GIVES

                    THE DISCRETION TO THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD TO DECIDE THAT.

                    AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT THESE CASES OF WORK-RELATED STRESS BECAUSE

                    THEY DON'T FIT THE CRITERIA OF THOSE PROFESSIONS ARE JUST DISMISSED AND

                    THIS WOULD JUST GIVE THE ABILITY FOR WORKERS TO HAVE THE WORKERS'

                    COMPENSATION BOARD REVIEW THEIR CLAIMS. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'LL

                                         33



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AUTOMATICALLY GET -- BE GRANTED.

                                 MS. WALSH:  NO, I UNDERSTAND, YES, ABSOLUTELY.  SO,

                    SO THE WAY THAT THE BILL READS NOW IS IT SAYS, WORKER FILES A CLAIM FOR

                    MENTAL INJURY PREMISED UPON EXTRAORDINARY WORK-RELATED STRESS

                    INCURRED.  SO THAT'S THEIR BURDEN OF SHOWING TO THE WORKERS' COMP, THE

                    HEARING OFFICER, THAT WHEN IT GOES -- WHEN IT GOES TO A HEARING -- IT GOES

                    TO A HEARING, THEY HAVE TO -- THAT'S THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF.  EXTRAORDINARY

                    WORK-RELATED STRESS OCCURRED AT WORK AND IT HAS TO BE SHOWN THAT IT'S AT

                    WORK --

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH.

                                 MS. WALSH: -- THAT HAS ALSO BEEN ADDED, OKAY.  SO

                    WHAT ABOUT THE PART -- I WAS A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT LINE 9, 10, 11

                    WHERE IT SAYS, UPON A FACTUAL FINDING THAT THE STRESS WAS NOT GREATER

                    THAN THAT WHICH USUALLY OCCURS IN THE NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT.  SO IN

                    OTHER WORDS, IT CAN BE - AND I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH.

                    WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO GET AT WITH THE ADDITION OF THAT -- WITH THAT

                    LANGUAGE WHICH WAS IN THE ORIGINAL LAW THAT'S NOT BEING STRUCK HERE?

                    YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOW THAT IT WAS AN UNUSUAL DAY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO

                    SHOW THAT IT WAS A PARTICULARLY STRESSFUL WORK ENVIRONMENT, IT SHOULD

                    JUST BE A NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT?  WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?  I WAS JUST

                    CONFUSED BY THAT.  THANK YOU.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MS. REYES:  SO IT'S SAYING THAT THE -- THE STRESSFUL

                    SITUATION DOES NOT NEED TO BE GREATER THAN THE USUAL NORMAL LEVEL OF

                    STRESS INCURRED DURING THE NORMAL COURSE OF A WORK ENVIRONMENT -- OR

                                         34



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE WORKDAY.  SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OF WORKERS

                    EXPERIENCING AN INCREASED LEVEL OF STRESS BECAUSE OF CONDITIONS OR

                    CIRCUMSTANCES AT WORK, THAT CAN'T BECOME THE NEW NORMAL THAT THAT

                    LEVEL OF STRESS IS ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IT'S BECOMING THE NEW NORMAL.  IT'S

                    KIND OF UNDERSTOOD THAT THAT IS NOT CONSIDERED PART OF THE NORMAL

                    COURSE OF STRESS-RELATED WORK.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY, ALL RIGHT.  SO THE WORKER HAS TO

                    ALLEGE EXTRAORDINARY MENTAL -- INJURY PREMISED UPON EXTRAORDINARY

                    WORK-RELATED STRESS BUT THE -- BUT IT COULD BE A NORMAL WORK

                    ENVIRONMENT.  IT JUST MIGHT BE A NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE

                    NEW NORMAL OR THE WAY THAT THAT WORK ENVIRONMENT IS IS IT'S JUST A

                    STRESSY SORT OF ENVIRONMENT, KIND OF LIKE THIS ONE, RIGHT?

                                 MS. REYES:  I'M GOING TO -- I'M GOING TO USE THE --

                    I'M GOING TO USE COVID AGAIN KIND OF LIKE THE HEIGHT OF THE SURGE AS A

                    AN EXAMPLE FOR THAT.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.

                                 MS. REYES:  DURING THAT TIME, IT WAS VERY STRESSFUL.

                    WAS THAT THE NORMAL, NO. BUT IT WAS THE -- THE LEVEL OF STRESS THAT

                    EVERYBODY WAS EXPERIENCING EVERY DAY, FOR DAYS ON END AND THE

                    EMPLOYER CAN SAY THAT'S NORMAL, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY NOT NORMAL.  IT IS

                    EXTRAORDINARY.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WHEN

                    YOU DON'T HAVE A PHYSICAL INJURY AND YOUR CONSTI -- I MEAN NEW YORK

                    TOOK A STEP IN, I THINK IT WAS IN 2017 AS YOU SAID, AND ALLOWS A

                    WORKERS' COMP CLAIM WHERE THERE'S NO PHYSICAL INJURY.  IT CAN BE A

                                         35



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PURELY MENTAL INJURY AND THAT ALREADY IS A LOT MORE GENEROUS THAN A LOT

                    OF OTHER STATES DO.  WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH, BUT IT'S RESTRICTED TO THESE

                    PROFESSIONS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH, RIGHT.  BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS IS

                    THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A PHYSICAL INJURY PLUS A MENTAL INJURY.  YOU

                    CAN JUST HAVE A MENTAL INJURY AND BRING THIS WORKERS' COMP CLAIM IN

                    NEW YORK.

                                 MS. REYES:  YES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH.  UNDER OUR EXISTING LAW AND

                    THEN AS THIS GETS EXPANDED TO MORE TYPES OF WORKERS.

                                 MS. REYES:  IF YOU -- IF YOU FALL UNDER THESE

                    CATEGORIES, THESE PROFESSIONS, YES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.

                                 MS. REYES:  BUT WE'RE SAYING THAT THERE ARE OTHER

                    WORKERS THAT HAVE EXPERIENCE AND CAN EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY LEVELS

                    OF STRESS AT WORK THAT RISES TO THE LEVEL OF PTSD AND THEIR CLAIMS

                    SHOULD JUST BE HEARD BY THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD AND

                    CONSIDERED.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  HOW MANY MORE -- DO YOU

                    HAVE ANY IDEA OF HOW MANY MORE CLAIMS ARE ANTICIPATED AS A RESULT OF

                    THIS CHANGE IN THE LAW?

                                 MS. REYES:  THAT'S DIFFICULT TO INNUMERATE.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.  SO

                    THEN FIGURING OUT HOW MUCH MORE IT MAY COST IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASSESS

                                         36



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE CLAIMS THERE MIGHT BE.

                                 MS. REYES:  CORRECT.  AND WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT THE

                    CLAIMS HAVE TO BE PAID.  WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD BE REVIEWED

                    AND EVALUATED LIKE EVERY OTHER WORKERS' COMP CLAIM.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH.  SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK AS YOU

                    GAVE EXAMPLES ABOUT NURSES, CORRECTIONS OFFICERS, I COULD CERTAINLY -- I

                    THINK WE CAN ALL THINK OF DIFFERENT PROFESSIONS THAT WEREN'T IN THAT

                    ORIGINAL LIST IN THE LAW THAT MAY VERY WELL BE ABLE TO MAKE OUT

                    MERITORIOUS CLAIMS.  WAS THERE ANY CONSIDERATION MADE WHEN DRAFTING

                    THIS LEGISLATION TO SIMPLY ADD THOSE TYPES OF JOB TITLES RATHER THAN

                    COMPLETELY OPENING THE DOORS WIDE OPEN TO ANY EMPLOYEE?

                                 MS. REYES:  I THINK IT WOULD JUST BE DIFFICULT FOR US

                    TO TRY AND DECIDE WHICH PROFESSIONS SHOULD GET THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING

                    ABLE TO HAVE THEIR CLAIMS HEARD BY THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD.

                    I THINK ANY WORKER SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING A CLAIM

                    FORWARD AND HAVE ITS DAY IN COURT.

                                 MS. WALSH:  ALL RIGHT.  I THINK -- WHO -- AS CLAIMS

                    ARE PAID OUT UNDER THIS SECTION, WHO -- WHO'S GOING TO BE PAYING FOR

                    THIS?  WHATEVER THAT NUMBER IS, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.  WHO PAYS

                    FOR IT?

                                 MS. REYES:  WHO PAYS FOR WORKERS' COMP?

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH.

                                 MS. REYES:  AND WE ALL PAY INTO WORKERS' COMP

                    AND THE EMPLOYERS PAY INTO WORKERS' COMP.

                                 MS. WALSH:  WHOSE RATES ARE LIKELY TO GO UP AS A

                                         37



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    RESULT OF MORE BEING PAID OUT FOR WORKERS' COMP CLAIMS?

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH, IT'S LIKE ALL WORKERS' COMP --

                    WORKERS' COMP CLAIMS, IT WOULD BE THE INSURANCE CARRIER.  BUT THIS IS

                    AGAIN, LIMITED TO EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.  IT'S -- WE ANTICIPATE IT'S GOING TO

                    BE A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF CLAIMS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YOU DO?

                                 MS. REYES:  WE -- YES, WE DO.

                                 MS. WALSH:  WOW.  ANY REASON WHY YOU WOULD

                    THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE NOT VERY MANY CLAIMS BROUGHT UNDER THIS?

                                 MS. REYES:  BECAUSE IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.  IT WOULD BE

                    UNDER EXTRAORDINARY STRESSFUL SITUATIONS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YEAH, BUT JUST LIKE IN ANY -- I MEAN

                    ANY LAWSUIT CAN BE BROUGHT ALLEGING ANYTHING, YOU KNOW.  I MEAN YOU

                    CAN SUE ANYBODY YOU WANT.  SAME THING HERE.  I MEAN YOU'RE GIVING

                    EVERY SINGLE WORKER IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK AN OPPORTUNITY, WHETHER

                    THEY CAN ULTIMATELY PROVE IT OR NOT, YOU'RE GIVING THEM AN OPPORTUNITY

                    TO COMPLETELY OVERWHELM AND GUM UP A REALLY ARGUABLY FRAUGHT KIND

                    OF FUNCTIONING WORKERS' COMP SYSTEM AS IT IS, AND YOU'RE BASICALLY JUST

                    OPENING THE DOORS WIDE OPEN.  WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THERE WON'T BE A

                    LOT OF CLAIMS?  MAYBE -- ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE WON'T BE A LOT THAT

                    WILL ACTUALLY GET PAID OUT, OR THAT THERE WON'T BE A LOT OF CLAIMS?

                                 MS. REYES:  I DON'T THINK THAT EVERY CLAIM RISES TO

                    THE LEVEL OF EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THAT.  I

                                         38



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU, THAT DOES NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BRINGING

                    THEM BUT YEAH, I GOTCHA, OKAY.

                                 SO YOU MENTIONED THAT THE HIGHER COSTS WOULD BE

                    BORNE BY THE INSURANCE COMPANIES BUT DON'T THE INSURANCE COMPANIES

                    JUST TURN AROUND AND PASS THOSE COSTS ALONG -- ALONG TO HIGHER RATES

                    PAID BY THE BUSINESSES OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK?  BUSINESSES PAY FOR

                    THIS, DON'T THEY?  MORE CLAIMS, MORE PAYOUTS.

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH, POTENTIALLY.  IF -- IF THERE ARE

                    MORE -- MORE PAYOUTS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  ALL RIGHT.  WELL, THANK YOU

                    VERY MUCH FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MS.

                    WALSH.

                                 MS. WALSH:  SO, AGAIN, MAYBE IT'S A THEME BASED

                    ON THE PREVIOUS BILL THAT WE WERE JUST DEBATING.  WE WERE TALKING

                    ABOUT WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY UNFRIENDLY BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT WE HAVE

                    HERE IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.  WE ARE DEAD LAST OR CLOSE TO LAST, I'VE

                    LOST TRACK.  IT'S AT THE VERY, VERY, VERY BOTTOM AS FAR AS BUSINESS

                    FRIENDLINESS.  THIS TYPE OF COMPLETE CHANGE TO OUR WORKERS'

                    COMPENSATION LAW IS ONLY GOING TO MAKE IT THAT MUCH HARDER FOR

                    BUSINESSES.  THE NEW YORK INSURANCE ASSOCIATION STATED IN THEIR

                    OPPOSITION MEMO THAT IT CALLED THIS AN UNPRECEDENTED, UNMANAGEABLE,

                    HIGH LEVEL OF UNCERTAINTY SINCE THE BAR FOR FILING THESE CLAIMS AND THE

                    PROOF FOR ESTABLISHING AN EXTRAORDINARY STRESS CLAIM HAS NOW BEEN

                                         39



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SIGNIFICANTLY LOWERED AND THE ABILITY TO MAKE SUCH CLAIMS HAS BEEN

                    SIGNIFICANTLY EXPANDED TO ALL PERSONS IN THE WORKPLACE.  SO LET'S TALK

                    ABOUT STRESS FOR A MINUTE.  ARE WE ALL FEELING A LITTLE BIT OF STRESS TODAY?

                    MAYBE A LITTLE BIT OF STRESS THIS WEEK?  WHO WORKS AND DOESN'T FEEL

                    STRESS?  WE ALL DO, RIGHT?  IF YOU -- IF YOU CAN SAY THAT I FEEL TODAY,

                    BECAUSE I'M OPERATING ON FOUR HOURS OF SLEEP AND WE'RE PASSING

                    HUNDREDS OF BILLS A DAY, I'M FEELING STRESSED OUT.  I'M GOING TO

                    CONTINUE.  YOU CAN BRING A WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIM, YOU KNOW.

                    IF YOU'RE A CLERICAL WORKER IN YOUR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT AND THE PERSON

                    IN THE CARREL OR THE CUBICLE NEXT TO YOU HAS -- HAS BEEN BULLYING YOU IN

                    YOUR MIND, YOU CAN BRING A WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIM, AND

                    WHETHER THESE CLAIMS ULTIMATELY GET PAID OUT IS ANOTHER THING.  BUT CAN

                    YOU EVEN IMAGINE THE NUMBER OF CLAIMS THAT CAN BE BROUGHT BEFORE THE

                    WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD?  IT'S GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE A

                    SIGNIFICANT -- POTENTIALLY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE TO THE POINT WHERE THE

                    SPONSOR DOESN'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE CLAIMS, DOESN'T KNOW HOW

                    MUCH MORE IT'S GOING TO COST, BUT WANTS TO MAKE THE CHANGE ANYWAY.

                    THE REASON WHY WE HAD THE LAW, OUR CURRENT LAW, THE WAY THAT IT IS

                    RIGHT NOW WAS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN JOBS THAT ARE

                    EXTRAORDINARILY STRESSFUL BY THEIR VERY NATURE.  PEOPLE WHO ARE

                    EMERGENCY DISPATCHERS, EMTS, PARAMEDICS, POLICE, FIRE, WE KNOW.  WE

                    HAVE OTHER LAWS ON THE BOOKS THAT RECOGNIZE THAT IF THEY HAVE A HEART

                    ATTACK WHILE THEY'RE DOING THEIR JOB, WE'RE GOING TO PRESUME THAT IT WAS

                    WORK-RELATED.  THAT'S WHY WE DO THAT.  AND SO THE WORKERS' -- THE

                    WORKERS' COMPENSATION CHANGE IS GOING TO BE A BIG CHANGE.  THIS WAS

                                         40



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    VETOED BACK IN 2023 FOLLOWING SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION IN THIS BODY.  I

                    JUST -- I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW AMORPHOUS AND UNDEFINED

                    THE KIND OF TERM STRESS IS.  WE USE THAT WORD, WE TOSS IT AROUND ALL THE

                    TIME.  AND THERE'S NOTHING IN HERE EXCEPT FOR SAYING THAT IT NEEDS TO BE

                    AT A HIGH LEVEL OR EXTRAORDINARY.  IT DOESN'T REALLY SAY ANYTHING ELSE

                    ABOUT IT.  SO WE ALL HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT'S NORMAL AND WHAT'S KIND OF A

                    STRESSY WORK ENVIRONMENT.  THIS JUST LET'S ALL OF THOSE CLAIMS COME IN.

                    SO AS THE NEW YORK INSURANCE ASSOCIATION SAID, THE TERM

                    “EXTRAORDINARY WORK STRESS” IS LEFT UNDEFINED, AND AMORPHOUS.  SUCH

                    WOULD MEAN THAT IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY DETERMINE WHAT

                    “STRESS” IS ACTUALLY UNIQUELY ATTRIBUTABLE TO WORK, AS COMPARED TO

                    STRESS THAT IS INTERTWINED WITH THE VAGARIES AND VICISSITUDES OF LIFE, AND

                    INTRINSICALLY A PART OF THE HUMAN CONDITION.  SO THAT'S -- I THINK THAT

                    THAT'S WHY THIS WAS VETOED BY THE GOVERNOR.  THE GOVERNOR RECOGNIZED

                    THAT THIS BILL BY -- BY DOING WHAT IT DOES, COMES WITH A SIGNIFICANT COST

                    AND THAT THE NEW YORK COMPENSATION INSURANCE RATING BOARD'S PUBLIC

                    ACTUARY NOTED THAT THESE COST ESTIMATES ARE HIGHLY IMPRECISE GIVING THE

                    SCOPE OF COMPENSATION THIS PROPOSAL COULD POTENTIALLY DELIVER.  WE, AS

                    A BODY, HAVE MADE SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS THROUGH THE BUDGET PROCESS

                    IN OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM AND IN IMPROVING MENTAL HEALTH.  MAKING

                    THIS CHANGE THE WAY THAT IT'S BEING MADE IS -- IS NOT A GOOD IDEA,

                    BECAUSE IT OPENS JUST THE BARN DOORS WIDE OPEN TO ALL KINDS OF CLAIM

                    AND WHETHER THEY ULTIMATELY PREVAIL OR DON'T PREVAIL, IT'S GOING TO

                    IMPACT OUR BUSINESSES, IT'S GOING TO RAISE THE RATES FOR BUSINESSES, AND

                    MY GOD, IN THIS TIME OF INFLATION AND IN OUTMIGRATION AND IN BUSINESSES

                                         41



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SHUTTERING UP IN NEW YORK STATE, DO WE REALLY WANT TO ADD ONE MORE

                    THING ON THE BACK OF OUR BUSINESSES?  I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE.  I

                    STRONGLY ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.  AND I DO THANK THE

                    SPONSOR FOR HER ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. NOVAKAHOV.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL

                    THE SPONSOR ANSWER A FEW QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. REYES, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. REYES:  YES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  SO I'VE

                    BEEN A BUSINESS OWNER FOR BASICALLY ALL MY LIFE AND THIS IS WHY I'M VERY

                    INTERESTED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION.  FIRST OF ALL, HOW MUCH

                    MORE THE BUSINESSES WILL PAY FOR INCREASED WORKERS' COMP?

                                 MS. REYES:  THE BILL DOESN'T SPEAK TO THAT.  IT'S NOT

                    GERMANE TO THE BILL.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  BUT THIS BILL WILL, YOU KNOW, THIS

                    BILL WILL BE CONSEQUENCES OF PAYING MORE.  I MEAN, DO YOU AGREE THAT

                    BUSINESSES WILL PAY MORE?

                                 MS. REYES:  I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THAT.

                    AND I HAVEN'T MADE AN ANALYSIS OF COST.  ALL WE'RE TRYING TO SAY IS THAT

                    WE'RE EXPANDING THIS RIGHT TO WORKERS THAT CURRENTLY EXIST IN LAW, RIGHT?

                    AND THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD ALREADY EVALUATES STRESS AND

                    USES THE WORD "STRESS", IT'S ALREADY IN -- IN LAW.  WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT

                                         42



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FOR EXTRAORDINARY STRESS, WORKERS WILL BE ABLE TO BRING A CLAIM.  I

                    COULDN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE COST IS.  THE BILL DOESN'T SPEAK TO THAT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  SO WORKING ON THIS BILL

                    WE DON'T KNOW THE FINANCIAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THE BUSINESSES; IS THAT

                    TRUE?

                                 MS. REYES:  WE CAN'T ANTICIPATE WHO BRINGS A CLAIM

                    AND IF IT PREVAILS OR IF IT DOESN'T.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  WHO WILL EVALUATE THE

                    LEVEL OF STRESS?

                                 MS. REYES:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  WHO WILL EVALUATE THE LEVEL OF

                    STRESS?

                                 MS. REYES:  WHO WILL EVALUATE IT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  WHO WILL SAY THIS STRESS IS

                    EXTRAORDINARY AND THIS STRESS IS REGULAR STRESS?  WHO WILL DETERMINE

                    THAT?

                                 MS. REYES:  THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD.

                    THEY CURRENTLY DO THAT NOW.  IT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  DO YOU KNOW HOW THEY DO IT?

                                 MS. REYES:  I DON'T KNOW HOW THE WORKERS'

                    COMPENSATION BOARD DOES THAT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  DO THEY HAVE LIKE PSYCHIATRISTS

                    OR PSYCHOLOGISTS --

                                 MS. REYES:  WELL, A DOCTOR HAS TO SIGN OFF ON -- ON

                    THOSE CLAIMS. ON JUST SIMILAR LIKE TO PHYSICAL INJURY THAT HAS TO BE

                                         43



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SIGNED OFF BY A DOCTOR.  FOR MENTAL INJURY A DOCTOR, A PSYCHIATRIST,

                    WHOEVER THE PROFESSIONAL IS THAT THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD

                    DEEMS.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  WITH A PHYSICAL OR MENTAL INJURY

                    WE KNOW THE DIAGNOSIS.  WE KNOW -- WE KNOW IF THE PERSON HAVE A

                    PAIN IN HIS LEG OR ARM OR HAS A DEPRESSION --

                                 MS. REYES:  THERE ARE PHYSICAL INJURIES THAT YOU

                    CAN'T PHYSICALLY SEE.  SIMILARLY THIS IS AN INJURY THAT YOU CAN'T SEE.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  YEAH, BUT WE KNOW EVEN IN

                    PSYCHIATRY WE KNOW THE DIAGNOSIS.  WE KNOW THAT THIS IS DEPRESSION

                    FOR EXAMPLE, RIGHT?

                                 MS. REYES:  BUT WE'RE NOT -- WE ARE NOT SAYING

                    DEPRESSION.  WE ARE SAYING PTSD.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  RIGHT.  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

                    STRESS.  SO I'M CURIOUS WHO WILL EVALUATE THE LEVEL OF STRESS -- THE LEVEL

                    OF EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.  SO WE DON'T KNOW THAT AS WELL, RIGHT?

                                 MS. REYES:  YEAH.  IT'S THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION

                    BOARD AND A PHYSICIAN.  EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO NOW FOR THIS SECTION OF

                    THE LAW.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  DO THEY EVALUATE STRESS NOW?

                                 MS. REYES:  YES, THEY DO.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  SO THEY DO EVALUATE

                    STRESS BUT THEY DON'T -- BUT THERE'S NO LEGISLATION TO -- FOR THE EMPLOYEE

                    TO GET COMPENSATED FOR THE STRESS.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY?

                                 MS. REYES:  NO.  I THINK YOU'RE MISUNDERSTANDING.

                                         44



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THIS CURRENTLY HAPPENS, AND IT HAPPENS FOR SOME PROFESSIONS, NOT FOR

                    ALL WORKERS.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE?

                                 MS. REYES:  YES, IT'S IN THE BILL.  POLICE OFFICERS,

                    FIREFIGHTERS, EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIANS, PARAMEDICS AND OTHER

                    PERSONS CERTIFICATED TO PROVIDE MEDICAL CARE IN EMERGENCIES OR AN

                    EMERGENCY DISPATCHER.  SO THE BOARD -- THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION

                    BOARD ALREADY DOES THIS FOR THOSE PROFESSIONS.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  SO DOES THIS BILL EXTEND TO OTHER

                    PROFESSIONS AS WELL?

                                 MS. REYES:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  CAN YOU GIVE ME AN

                    EXAMPLE OF ANOTHER PROFESSION WHERE STRESS --

                                 MS. REYES:  CORRECTION OFFICER.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  CORRECTION OFFICER.

                                 MS. REYES:  NURSE, DOCTOR, (INAUDIBLE)

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  SO ANYONE.  ASSEMBLYMEMBER?

                                 MS. REYES:  YOU WOULD HAVE TO PROVE

                    EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.  OKAY,

                    GOOD.  SO HOW TO AVOID FRAUD, WHICH I'M SURE WILL BE ASSOCIATED WITH

                    THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I CAN JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M UNDER

                    EXTRAORDINARY STRESS NOW, I'M STRESSED OUT BECAUSE WE'RE WORKING 12,

                    13 HOURS A DAY WITH EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.  ARE YOU AGREEING WITH

                    EXTRAORDINARY STRESS?

                                         45



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. REYES:  NO --

                                 (INAUDIBLE/CROSS-TALK)

                                 I MAY BE UNDER EXTRAORDINARY STRESS BUT --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.  SO HOW DO

                    YOU THINK WE WILL AVOID THE FRAUD, WHICH I BELIEVE WILL BE ENORMOUS IN

                    THIS -- AFTER THIS LEGISLATION WILL BE PASSED AND SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR,

                    BECAUSE I MEAN ANYONE CAN CLAIM EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.

                                 MS. REYES:  SURE, BUT THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION

                    BOARD STILL HAS TO EVALUATE THAT CLAIM, RIGHT, AND THEY HAVE TO -- YOU

                    HAVE TO HAVE A DOCTOR SIGN OFF ON THAT.  IT'S NOT JUST SAYING I AM

                    CLAIMING EXTRAORDINARY STRESS.  IT HAS TO RISE TO THE LEVEL OF STRESS THAT

                    IS ABOVE AND BEYOND THE EVERY DAY WORK ENVIRONMENT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  RIGHT.  SO WE DON'T KNOW HOW

                    MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST -- FOR THE BUSINESS TO -- HOW MUCH MORE

                    BUSINESS WILL BE PAY FOR WORKERS' COMPENSATION.  WE DON'T KNOW

                    EXACTLY HOW EXTRAORDINARY STRESS, WHAT EXTRAORDINARY STRESS IS AND HOW

                    IT'S GOING TO BE EVALUATED, I'M SORRY.

                                 MS. REYES:  WE DO KNOW -- WE DO KNOW HOW IT'S

                    EVALUATED.  THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD EVALUATES IT AND A

                    PHYSICIAN WHO CAN DIAGNOSE PTSD WILL DETERMINE IF THAT PERSON IS

                    INDEED --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY, BUT WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO

                    AVOID FRAUD WHICH WILL BE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS LEGISLATION.

                                 MS. REYES:  THE SAME WAY YOU AVOID FRAUD NOW,

                    THE SAME WAY YOU AVOID FRAUD NOW IN WORKERS' COMPENSATION CLAIMS.

                                         46



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LIKE THIS IS A STRUCTURE THAT ALREADY EXISTS.  ALL THE MECHANISMS YOU'RE

                    ASKING ME ABOUT ALREADY EXISTS.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  SO WHY AN EMPLOYEE CAN'T JUST

                    QUIT THE JOB IF THIS JOB IS IT TOO STRESSFUL FOR THE EMPLOYEE?

                                 MS. REYES:  IT'S NOT ABOUT EVERY DAY STRESS.  IT'S NOT

                    ABOUT MY JOB IS STRESSFUL.  THIS IS ABOUT EXTRAORDINARY STRESS --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  SO MY JOB --

                                 MS. REYES: -- AND SIMILARLY -- AND SIMILARLY --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  MY JOB IS EXTRAORDINARY STRESS --

                                 MS. REYES: -- AND SIMILARLY I WOULD ARGUE THAT

                    WHEN POLICE OFFICERS SIGN UP FOR THE FORCE, WHEN FIREFIGHTERS SIGN UP TO

                    BE FIREFIGHTERS, THAT JOB IS INHERENTLY STRESSFUL, RIGHT?  AND WE DON'T SAY

                    TO THEM WELL, YOU SHOULD JUST QUIT BECAUSE YOU'RE STRESSED, YOU KNOW,

                    YOU SHOULD'VE NEVER BECOME A POLICE OFFICER.  THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE

                    SAYING.  WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THAT THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES AND WE

                    RECOGNIZE THAT IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF WORK, AND WE RECOGNIZE IT FOR

                    THESE PROFESSIONS THAT THERE ARE EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE

                    SOMEBODY MAY BE EXPERIENCING STRESS THAT IS UNLIKE YOUR EVERY DAY

                    COURSE OF WORK.  AND WE'RE SAYING THAT -- THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES CAN ALSO

                    EXIST IN OTHER PROFESSIONS THAT WE HAVEN'T DELINEATED IN THE LAW, AND

                    THAT'S WHY WE ARE SAYING THAT WE ARE OPENING IT UP TO OTHER WORKERS

                    WHO CAN POTENTIALLY ALSO EXPERIENCE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AT WORK.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  WELL, I BELIEVE IF I'M

                    EXPERIENCING EXTRAORDINARY STRESS BEING A NURSE OR A BUS DRIVER, YOU

                    KNOW, I JUST REALIZE THAT I CAN'T CONTINUE WORKING AS A BUS DRIVER OR A

                                         47



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NURSE ANYMORE.

                                 MS. REYES:  RIGHT.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  RIGHT?

                                 MS. REYES:  IF YOU -- IF YOU HAVE AN INSTANCE AS A

                    BUS DRIVER WHERE YOU ARE IN AN ACCIDENT AND YOU LOSE SOME OF YOUR

                    PASSENGERS THAT MAY BE CHILDREN OR WHOMEVER, THAT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY

                    STRESSFUL EVENT THAT CAN CAUSE YOU TO NOT BE ABLE TO FUNCTION AT WORK

                    EVERY DAY.  AND THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF WORKERS' COMPENSATION SO THAT

                    WE CAN GET THOSE PEOPLE HELP AND SUPPORT WHILE THEY CAN GET BETTER TO

                    RETURN BACK TO WORK.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  ALL RIGHT.  THANK YOU SO MUCH.

                    THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS.  THANK YOU.  I APPRECIATE IT.

                    THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION.  THOSE WHO

                    SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  THE DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF THIS

                                         48



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PIECE OF LEGISLATION.  THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT DESIRE TO BE AN

                    EXCEPTION.  THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR SEATS.  THANK YOU,

                    SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. GOODELL TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  AS YOU KNOW, IN

                    THE LAST FEW YEARS WE'VE SEEN SOME VERY ALARMING TRENDS THAT ACTUALLY

                    THREATEN THE STRENGTH AND VITALITY OF NEW YORK STATE.  THE LATEST

                    CENSUS STATUS DATA SHOWED THAT WE LOST 200,000 RESIDENTS IN NET LAST

                    YEAR, OVER 500,000 OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.  AND WHY ARE THE PEOPLE

                    LEAVING?  IT'S VERY SIMPLE.  THEY HAVE BETTER OPPORTUNITIES ELSEWHERE.

                    THEY CAN MAKE MORE MONEY ELSEWHERE, THEIR COST OF DOING BUSINESS IS

                    LOWER, THERE ARE MORE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES.  CONTRIBUTING TO THAT

                    EXODUS IS THE FACT THAT WE IN NEW YORK IMPOSE SO MANY EXPENSES ON

                    OUR EMPLOYERS IT'S HARDER FOR THEM TO BE PROFITABLE, IT'S HARDER FOR THEM

                    TO PAY MORE, IT'S HARDER FOR THEM TO EVEN SURVIVE IN NEW YORK STATE.

                                 ACCORDING TO A RECENT STUDY CONDUCTED BY THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS, NEW YORK STATE RANKED NUMBER TWO

                    IN THE HIGHEST WORKERS' COMP RATES IN THE NATION.  OUR WORKERS' COMP

                    RATES WERE 69 PERCENT HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.  SO DOES THIS

                    LEGISLATION BRING OUR WORKERS' COMP RATES LOWER?  NO.  IT PUTS THEM

                    HIGHER.  DOES IT ENCOURAGE MORE JOB GROWTH IN NEW YORK STATE?  NO.

                    IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT AND MORE EXPENSIVE TO BE IN NEW YORK

                                         49



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    STATE.  DOES IT ADDRESS THE FACTORS THAT ARE CAUSING A HUGE

                    OUTMIGRATION?  NO.  IT DOES THE OPPOSITE.  PERHAPS IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR

                    THE FUTURE OF NEW YORK STATE IF WE FOCUSED ON HOW WE CAN BRING THE

                    COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN NEW YORK CLOSER TO THE NATIONAL AVERAGE

                    RATHER THAN DRIVING IT EVEN FURTHER RECOGNIZING THAT WE ARE ALREADY 69

                    PERCENT HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.

                                 SO WHILE I SUPPORT THE DESIRE TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE

                    STRESSED OUT, BY SO DOING WE STRESS OUT THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES WHO NOW

                    HAVE TO MOVE OUT OF THE STATE IN ORDER TO OBTAIN EMPLOYMENT.  THANK

                    YOU, SIR.  I VOTE NO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. NOVAKAHOV TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR THE

                    OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK

                    THE SPONSOR FOR THE DIALOGUE AND THAT WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE WITH THE BUS

                    DRIVER AND INDEED, THE BUS DRIVER WOULD BE STRESSED IF HE GETS IN AN

                    ACCIDENT AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING HAPPENS WITH THE -- WITH THE

                    PASSENGERS.  HOWEVER, WHY I -- YOU KNOW, WHY I'M IN THE NEGATIVE,

                    WHY I CAN'T SUPPORT THIS BILL IS BECAUSE IN MY BELIEF WHEN WE ARE DOING

                    LEGISLATION LIKE THIS, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL CONSEQUENCES

                    FOR THE BUSINESSES -- FOR THE SMALL BUSINESSES.  SO BECAUSE WE DON'T

                    KNOW -- THERE'S NOT ENOUGH RESEARCH TO UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH THAT

                    WOULD BE FOR THE SMALL -- HOW MUCH MORE THAT WILL BE FOR THE SMALL

                    BUSINESSES.  IT'S ANOTHER BURDEN ON THE SMALL BUSINESSES.  SO MAYBE

                                         50



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THAT'S A GOOD LEGISLATION.  I DON'T KNOW YET BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH

                    INFORMATION.  I NEED TO KNOW -- WE ALL NEED TO KNOW AND THE BUSINESSES

                    HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW HOW MUCH MORE THAT WOULD COST THEM.  AND FOR

                    THIS REASON UNFORTUNATELY, UNFORTUNATELY, I CANNOT SUPPORT THIS

                    LEGISLATION.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.  MR.

                    NOVAKHOV IN THE NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. STECK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. STECK:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  MOST OF THE

                    DOMESTIC OUTMIGRATION LAST YEAR ORIGINATED IN THE FIVE BOROUGHS OF

                    NEW YORK CITY WHICH LOST A COMBINED 162,310 PEOPLE.  I WOULD

                    VENTURE TO SAY THAT HAS TO DO WITH LARGELY WITH THE VERY HIGH COST OF

                    RENT IN NEW YORK CITY WHICH THE MINORITY CONFERENCE ASSIDUOUSLY

                    DEFENDS AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY.  I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. STECK IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. BRONSON.

                                 MR. BRONSON:  YES, MR. SPEAKER.  I RISE TO EXPLAIN

                    MY VOTE AND TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR OF THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION.  YOU

                    KNOW IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT WE KEEP HEARING THIS RHETORIC THAT

                    WORKERS' COMP IS SO COSTLY TO BUSINESS AND I BEING A BUSINESS OWNER

                    UNTIL MIDNIGHT OF DECEMBER 31ST OF LAST YEAR CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THAT.

                    BUT IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.  WORKERS' COMP PREMIUMS HAVE GONE DOWN,

                    GONE DOWN OVER THE LAST DECADE.  THE ASSESSMENTS ON WORKERS' COMP

                    HAS GONE DOWN OVER THE LAST DECADE.  SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO BE

                                         51



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CAREFUL ABOUT JUST CLAIMING WORKERS' COMP COSTS ARE SO HIGH IN NEW

                    YORK STATE WHEN INDEED THE REFORMS WE'VE TAKEN HAVE REDUCED THE

                    COST OF BUSINESSES OVER THE LAST DECADE.

                                 ALSO, THERE'S A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THIS BILL.  THIS BILL

                    MERELY IS SAYING FOR ALL WORKERS AS A DEFENSE WHEN A CLAIM IS

                    CONTROVERTED THAT THE EMPLOYER OF THE INSURANCE COMPANY CANNOT USE

                    THAT THE STRESS IN ITS FACTUAL FINDING IS NOT GREATER THAN THAT WHICH

                    USUALLY OCCURS IN THE NORMAL WORK ENVIRONMENT.  THAT'S ALL THIS BILL

                    DOES.  IT'S AN EVIDENTIARY BILL.  IT EXPANDS IT TO ALL WORKERS VERSUS JUST

                    POLICE OFFICERS AND FIREFIGHTERS, BUT THE BILL IS AN EVIDENTIARY BILL, AND IT

                    MAKES MORE FAIR TO INJURED WORKERS WHO HAVE EXTRAORDINARY STRESS AS A

                    RESULT OF THEIR JOB.  IT HAS TO BE CONNECTED TO THE JOB.  SO THIS IS A GOOD

                    BILL BECAUSE IT WILL PROTECT INJURED WORKERS WHO HAVE STRESS RESULTING,

                    EXTRAORDINARY STRESS RESULTING BECAUSE OF THEIR WORKPLACE EXPERIENCE

                    WITH THAT CONNECTION.  WITH THAT, I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND I VOTE IN

                    THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BRONSON IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. LAVINE.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  IT'S ALREADY YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN

                    LISTENING TO THE ARGUMENT THAT NEW YORK STATE IS ABSOLUTELY THE WORST

                    PLACE, FORGET ABOUT IT, IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.  PERHAPS ON THE

                    FACE OF THE GLOBE.  I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY.  AND WHILE I'M SURE THAT

                    THERE ARE SOME ENTITIES THAT BASED SOLELY ON SOME NARROW

                    CONSIDERATIONS WOULD FIND US TO BE PERHAPS NOT AS ATTRACTIVE TO

                                         52



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BUSINESSES AS ALASKA OR NORTH DAKOTA, I'M NOT TOO LIKELY TO WANT TO

                    LIVE IN ALASKA OR IN NORTH DAKOTA AND I'VE LIVED IN REMOTE PARTS OF THE

                    UNITED STATES.  AND I JUST WANT TO CLOSE BY SAYING THAT I THINK WE ALL

                    RESPECT CNBC'S BUSINESS ACUMEN.  CNBC RELATES -- WELL, I'M GLAD THAT

                    THAT CAUSES SOME LAUGHTER FOR YOU WHEN I THINK THAT THAT MAY BE A

                    LAUGHTER OF EMBARRASSMENT, BUT WE ARE RANKED BY CNBC.  AND I'M

                    GOING TO CLOSE S WITH SOMETHING THAT YOU MAY FIND INTERESTING, THOSE OF

                    YOU WHO ARE LAUGHING.  WE RANKED 20TH AS AMONGST THE BEST PLACES TO

                    LIVE BUT THAT INCLUDES FACTORS SUCH AS WORKFORCE STRENGTH,

                    INFRASTRUCTURE, THE STRENGTH OF OUR ECONOMY, QUALITY OF LIFE, INCLUSION,

                    THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS, TECHNOLOGY, INNOVATION AND EDUCATION AND

                    ACCESS TO CAPITAL. NEW YORK REMAINS THE ECONOMIC CAPITAL OF NOT ONLY

                    THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD, AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WISH TO LIVE

                    IN SOME OF THESE STATES THAT YOU'VE SEEM TO THINK ARE SO IDEAL, I WOULD

                    ONLY SUGGEST HAVING LIVED IN SOME OF THOSE PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES

                    YOU MIGHT THINK TWICE ABOUT THAT.  I'M HAPPY TO STAY HERE IN NEW YORK

                    STATE.  I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. LAVINE IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MS. WALSH TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  SO I JUST

                    WANT TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT WERE JUST MADE RECENTLY.

                    ONE -- SO TWO THINGS ARE REALLY HAPPENING WITH THIS BILL.  AND THE FIRST

                    IS AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, INSTEAD OF RECOGNIZING CERTAIN CATEGORIES OF

                    WORKERS THAT HAVE INHERENTLY STRESSFUL JOBS LIKE POLICE, FIREFIGHTERS,

                                         53



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WE'RE JUST OPENING UP TO EVERY EMPLOYEE IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                    THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT'S HAPPENING.  THE SECOND THING IS WE'RE

                    ELIMINATING THE NEED TO SHOW A WORK-RELATED EMERGENCY AND WE'RE JUST

                    SAYING IT'S AT WORK.  SO THE EXAMPLE THAT WAS GIVEN ABOUT THE BUS

                    DRIVER AND THE BIG CRASH, THAT WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF A WORK-RELATED

                    EMERGENCY.  WE'RE WIPING THAT OUT.  THIS CAN BE A SITUATION WHERE IT'S

                    JUST DAY-TO-DAY STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT, MAYBE WITH CO-WORKERS, I THINK

                    IT COULD LEAD TO A LOT OF VERY QUESTIONABLE CLAIMS. I THINK THAT IT COULD

                    LEAD TO A LOT OF ABUSE AND I KNOW -- I HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE IN

                    THE WORKERS' COMPENSATION BOARD, BUT I KNOW THAT THIS IS GOING TO

                    INCREASE THEIR WORKLOAD SUBSTANTIALLY.  WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH ANY

                    OF THAT IS GOING TO COST OR HOW THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE BUDGETED FOR

                    OR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ADDED THERE.  I JUST -- YOU

                    KNOW, I KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE CAN ALL QUOTE DIFFERENT STATISTICS, BUT JUST

                    BECAUSE WE'RE QUOTING A STATISTIC DOESN'T MEAN IT'S RHETORIC.  JUST

                    BECAUSE MAYBE YOU DON'T LIKE THE STATISTIC.  WE LEAD THE NATION IN

                    OUTMIGRATION.  WE DO.  WE ARE ONE OF THE LEAST FRIENDLY STATES FOR

                    BUSINESS IN THE COUNTRY.  NOW IT'S NOT ALL BECAUSE OF WORKERS' COMP,

                    SOME OF IT'S BECAUSE OF THE CLCPA GOALS THAT -- THAT COMPANIES ARE

                    JUST SAYING WE CAN'T MEET THEM, WE DON'T WANT TO MEET THEM, WE'RE

                    GOING TO SHUT IT OFF AND WE'RE GOING TO GO TO A STATE THAT'S FRIENDLIER TO

                    US.  SO IT'S NOT JUST THIS THAT'S DRIVING BUSINESSES OUT AND I HOPE NO ONE

                    TOOK MY ARGUMENTS TO MEAN THAT, BUT IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT HELP.  IT

                    DOESN'T HELP TO ALLEVIATE ANY OF THE REASONS WHY COMPANIES ARE LEAVING

                    AND THE PEOPLE THAT GO ALONG WITH THEM.

                                         54



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 SO AGAIN, I'LL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND THANK YOU,

                    MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. WALSH IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 MR. GOODELL FOR THE PURPOSES OF A INTRODUCTION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  IT IS MY GREAT PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE TO OUR CHAMBER SOME

                    REMARKABLE GUESTS.  WE HAVE WITH US JETSYN AND LENNYN HOFFMAN, AND

                    THEY'RE BOTH 21 MONTHS OLD.  I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHICH ONE OF THOSE

                    TWINS IS OLDER.  BOTH OF THESE TWINS HAVE BROTHERS, TYTAN AND HOUSTYN

                    AND THEY ARE THE SONS -- DAUGHTERS, RATHER, OF JEFFREY HOFFMAN AND

                    MARISSA HOFFMAN, AND JEFFREY HOFFMAN IS A REMARKABLE PITCHER WITH

                    THE PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES.  HIS PITCHES ARE 50 PERCENT HIGHER AND MORE

                    RELIABLE THAN MY CAR.  THEY'RE HERE WITH THEIR VERY PROUD GRANDMOTHER.

                    THEY CALL HER "MIMI" BUT I CALL HER MICHELLE KREGE.  PLEASE WELCOME

                    MICHELLE KREGE AND HER GRANDDAUGHTERS JETSYN AND LENNYN TO OUR

                    CHAMBERS.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  CERTAINLY.  ON BEHALF

                    OF MR. GOODELL, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE SUBSTITUTES FOR THOSE DELICIOUS,

                    BEAUTIFUL YOUNG LADIES.  WHETHER OR NOT YOU'LL ACCEPT THEM AS

                    SUBSTITUTES I DON'T KNOW.  HOWEVER, ON BEHALF OF MR. GOODELL, THE

                    SPEAKER AND ALL THE MEMBERS, WE WELCOME YOU HERE TO THE NEW YORK

                                         55



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    STATE ASSEMBLY WHEREVER YOU MAY BE AND WE EXTEND TO YOU THE

                    PRIVILEGES OF THE FLOOR AND HOPE YOU COME BACK AND JOIN US IN ORDER TO

                    TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.  AND AS FOR THE TWO WAVING IN THE BACK, GOOD

                    TRY.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 (APPLAUSE)

                                 PAGE 9, RULES REPORT NO. 159, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A06042-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 159, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, STIRPE, COLTON, CRUZ, JEAN-PIERRE,

                    JACKSON, GIBBS, LEVENBERG, SEAWRIGHT, EPSTEIN, SILLITTI, ARDILA,

                    HYNDMAN, SIMON, LUCAS, GUNTHER, AUBRY, DAVILA, WEPRIN.  AN ACT TO

                    AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING INSURANCE POLICIES TO

                    PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS DURING PREGNANCY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. BICHOTTE

                    HERMELYN, A EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  THIS BILL WOULD REQUIRE COMMERCIAL INSURANCE COVERAGE OF

                    MEDICALLY NECESSARY TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS FOR CARE AND TREATMENT

                    DURING PREGNANCY WHEN RECOMMENDED BY NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED

                    CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. WALSH.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS?

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  SURE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  SO I SAW THAT

                                         56



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IT'S GOING TO SAY WHEN RECOMMENDED BY NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL

                    PRACTICE GUIDELINES, AND THEN I WAS LOOKING AT THE BILL THAT SAYS FOR THE

                    PURPOSES OF THIS SUBPARAGRAPH THAT MEANS GUIDELINES INFORMED BY A

                    SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF EVIDENCE AND AN ASSESSMENT OF THE BENEFITS AND

                    RISKS OF ALTERNATIVE CARE OPTIONS INTENDED TO OPTIMIZE PATIENT CARE

                    DEVELOPED BY INDEPENDENT ORGANIZATIONS OR MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL

                    SOCIETIES UTILIZING A TRANSPARENT METHODOLOGY AND REPORTING STRUCTURE

                    AND WITH A CONFLICT OF INTEREST POLICY.  SO THAT'S A LOT OF WORDS.  MY

                    QUESTION IS, IS THERE MORE THAN ONE, I MEAN, NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED

                    CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINE RELATED TO THIS KIND OF TREATMENT?

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  I MEAN THERE'S --

                    WHAT I WOULD SAY THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES CAN LOOK AT THEIR PEER

                    NATIONAL RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES.  THERE ARE -- THERE ARE

                    MULTIPLE, AND IT COULD BE A SITUATION WHERE THEY CAN LOOK AT THE PEER

                    NATIONAL RECOGNIZED.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  SO THERE ARE -- I THOUGHT THAT

                    THERE WERE TWO, BECAUSE I WAS DOING A LITTLE BIT OF RESEARCH ON THIS.  IT

                    LOOKS LIKE THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE.  SO MY QUESTION IS, WHAT DO WE DO

                    IF THEY DON'T AGREE, THOSE DIFFERENT GUIDELINES?  DOESN'T THAT PRESENT A

                    PROBLEM?

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  SO WE DON'T SEE A

                    CONFLICT BECAUSE THEY ALL SEE THE PEER REVIEW -- THEY'RE ALL PART OF THE

                    SAME PEER REVIEW GROUP, AND SO THEY ALL LOOK AT ALL THE SAME -- OF THE

                    PEER EVIDENCE.  SO WE JUST DON'T FORESEE A CONFLICT.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  I'M SORRY I DON'T UNDERSTAND

                                         57



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THAT ANSWER.  SO THEY ARE DIFFERENT.  HOW ARE THEY ALL --

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  THEY'RE COMING

                    FROM THE SAME PEER REVIEW EVIDENCE-BASED GUIDELINES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  AND IF THEY ARE

                    DIFFERENT, THEY'RE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

                                 MS. WALSH:  WELL, WHAT IF UNDER ONE SET OF

                    GUIDELINES THERE WOULD BE A RECOMMENDATION THAT THIS TYPE OF

                    TREATMENT WOULD BE PROVIDED AND ANOTHER SET OF GUIDELINES WOULD NOT?

                    I MEAN HOW DO WE RESOLVE THAT?

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  WELL, AT THE END OF

                    THE DAY REMEMBER, THIS -- WE STILL LEAVE IT IN THE INSURER'S HANDS TO

                    DECIDE, AND THEY WILL LOOK AT THEIR OWN PEER REVIEW EVIDENCE-BASED

                    GUIDELINES.  SO THE INSURERS STILL HAVE THE LAST SAY.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  SO LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, I WAS

                    LOOKING THROUGH AND IT LOOKED LIKE -- IT DID LOOK LIKE THERE WERE

                    DIFFERENT -- INSURANCE COMPANIES HAD DIFFERENT PROTOCOLS THAT WERE OUT

                    THERE.  AETNA, CIGNA, BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD, THEY ALL HAD DIFFERENT

                    PROTOCOLS SO -- SO BASICALLY, LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE, I DON'T KNOW,

                    I'M JUST GOING TO PICK ONE, BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD SAYS THAT A

                    PARTICULAR INSTANCE WITH THIS PATIENT IT WOULD NOT BE RECOMMENDED THAT

                    THEY BE ABLE TO HAVE THIS TREATMENT PAID.  ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY

                    WOULD THEN JUST GO THROUGH THE SAME PROCESS THAT THEY NORMALLY WOULD

                    TO CONTEST THAT OR TO SAY THAT THEY WANTED TO GET IT PAID?  WOULD IT GET

                    RESOLVED DURING THAT KIND OF ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS OR HOW DO WE --

                                         58



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HOW DO WE TAKE CARE OF THAT?  BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT CALLING OUT ANY

                    SPECIFIC CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES IN THE BILL.

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  WELL, I MEAN AT THE

                    END OF THE DAY, I MEAN THEY CAN GO TO, YOU KNOW, AT LENGTH TO GO BACK

                    TO THE INSURERS, BECAUSE THE INSURERS WILL ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, BE --

                    HAVE THE LAST SAY IN TERMS OF WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO PERFORM THAT

                    PARTICULAR PROCEDURE ON THAT PARTICULAR PATIENT.  MY QUESTION IS, I DON'T

                    UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ISSUE, THOUGH.  THE ISSUE IS WE'RE ARGUING

                    PROTOCOLS, RIGHT?  WE'RE ARGUING WHETHER A PATIENT WILL HAVE TWO

                    TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND VERSUS ANOTHER PATIENT OR VERSUS THAT SAME

                    PATIENT HAVING ONE TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND.  WHAT IS THE HARM?  THIS IS

                    TO PREVENT BABIES OR PREVENT PRE-TERM LABOR WHICH COULD EVENTUALLY

                    HAVING AN INFANT NOT, YOU KNOW, SURVIVING YOUR LIFE.  SO WHAT'S THE

                    ISSUE HERE?

                                 MS. WALSH:  WELL, OKAY.  SO, FOR EXAMPLE, BLUE

                    CROSS BLUE SHIELD OPPOSES THIS BILL.  AND THEY SAY THAT MANDATING

                    COVERAGE, EVEN WHEN RECOMMENDED BY NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL

                    PRACTICE GUIDELINES MAY LEAD TO QUESTIONS OF COVERAGE WHEN DIFFERENT

                    GUIDELINES HAVE DIFFERENT RECOMMENDATIONS.  AS A RESULT, SUCH TESTS

                    COULD BE PERFORMED INDISCRIMINATELY.  SO WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  RIGHT.  MY RESPONSE

                    IS LOOK, NATIONAL [SIC] RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES MEAN

                    EVIDENT [SIC] BASED CLINICAL PRACTICE GUIDELINES INFORMED BY A

                    SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF EVIDENCE AND ASSESSMENT OF THE BENEFITS IN RISK OF

                    ALTERNATIVE CARE OPTIONS INTENDED TO OPTIMIZE PATIENT CARE DEVELOPED

                                         59



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BY INDEPENDENT ORGANIZATIONS OR MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

                    UTILIZING A TRANSPARENT METHOLOGY [SIC] AND REPORTING STRUCTURE AND

                    WITH A CONFLICT OF INTEREST OF POLICY.  SO, YOU KNOW, TO YOUR POINT IN THE

                    EVENT THERE'S A CONFLICT BETWEEN NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE

                    GUIDELINES, THE INSURER WOULD LIKELY BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE COVERAGE

                    WHEN AT LEAST ONE RECOMMENDS THE SERVICE.  HOWEVER, AS MENTIONED, IT

                    IS STILL AT THE INSURER'S DISCRETION TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

                                 MS. WALSH:  AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.

                    WE WANT AN INSURER TO WORK AND CONSIDER AND USE CRITERIA BASED ON

                    EVIDENCE AND THE UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES OF EACH PATIENT TO DETERMINE

                    THE BEST SCREENING MODALITY.  AND I THINK THE CONCERN THAT'S BEING

                    RAISED BY SOME OF THE INSURERS IS THAT BY SETTING TREATMENT REQUIREMENTS

                    IN STATUTE, IT INTERFERES WITH THAT PROCESS.  THAT'S THE NATURE OF THE

                    OPPOSITION OF THE BILL.  I DON'T KNOW IF YOU --

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  I MEAN INSURANCE

                    COMPANIES, THEY JUST -- A LOT OF THEM JUST DON'T WANT TO PAY.  THEY JUST

                    DON'T WANT TO PAY AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE -- WE'RE PUTTING SOME OF THESE

                    BILLS IN PLACE BECAUSE WE WANT PEOPLE TO LIVE.  WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE

                    ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE.  WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE THE RESOURCES THAT THEY

                    NEED.  AND, AND, YOU KNOW, IN MANY CASES THE INSURANCE COMPANY

                    SHOULD BE PAYING.  I MEAN WE'RE PAYING LOTS OF MONEY IN OUR COVERAGE

                    PLANS.  AND SO THIS IS -- THIS IS -- THIS IS REALLY NOTHING.  I MEAN THIS IS

                    JUST A ROUTINE TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND.  THIS IS TO PREVENT, YOU KNOW,

                    INFANTS OR A PREGNANCY THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE AT RISK.  YOU KNOW,

                    WE'RE TRYING TO FIND WAYS THAT MOTHERS DON'T DIE, EXPECTANT MOTHERS

                                         60



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DON'T DIE OR BABIES DON'T DIE WHILE THEY'RE GOING THROUGH THIS WHOLE

                    JOURNEY OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD.  SO I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE

                    EVEN ARGUING THIS.  I MEAN WHEN -- WHEN WE ASK INSURANCE COMPANIES

                    HEY, WE NEED SCREENING FOR HPV, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A WHOLE BIG ISSUE

                    AROUND THAT.  WE WANT THESE SCREENINGS TO PREVENT RISK, YOU KNOW.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  I APPRECIATE

                    YOUR COMMENTS.

                                 MADAM SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  ON THE BILL.

                                 MS. WALSH:  YOU KNOW, I WANT TO MAKE IT VERY,

                    VERY CLEAR TO ANYBODY LISTENING THAT I HAVE NO ISSUE AT ALL IT WITH THIS --

                    WITH THIS PROCEDURE.  IT'S -- IT'S AN EXCELLENT PROCEDURE AND IN SOME

                    CASES IT REALLY CAN HELP A WOMAN TO KEEP A PREGNANCY AND TO BE ABLE TO

                    MAKE, YOU KNOW, BETTER HEALTH DECISIONS WHO NEED IT, OR EVEN WOMEN

                    WHO ARE NOT PREGNANT AND ARE TRYING TO GET PREGNANT, IT'S A GREAT

                    PROCEDURE.  I THINK THE ONLY POINT THAT'S REALLY BEING RAISED, TRYING TO

                    RAISE DURING DEBATE IS THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES JUST NEED TO KNOW

                    WHAT THE RULES ARE, AND WHEN THE BILL IS WORDED IN A WAY THAT KIND OF

                    GENERALLY DEFINES WHAT A NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED CLINICAL PRACTICE

                    GUIDELINE WOULD BE BUT DOESN'T REALLY LAY OUT WHAT THAT GUIDELINE IS,

                    THERE COULD BE -- AND IT'S A MANDATE THAT'S BEING PLACED ON IT, FINE, BUT

                    THEY JUST NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE, AND THEIR CONCERN IS THAT IF

                    YOU COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE - AND THE SPONSOR INDICATED THAT THERE ARE -

                    DIFFERENT GUIDELINES THAT COULD MEET THAT CRITERIA AS OUTLINED IN THE BILL.

                    SO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE JUST SAYING, YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE GOING

                                         61



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TO BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE COVERAGE BASED ON A SET OF GUIDELINES, WE

                    JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IF THE GUIDELINES DON'T AGREE.  SO, YOU

                    KNOW, THAT BEING SAID, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I -- I -- I DON'T REALLY HAVE

                    ANY -- ANY OTHER ISSUES WITH THE BILL OTHER THAN JUST THAT CONCERN ABOUT

                    JUST MAKING SURE THAT IF WE'RE PLACING A REQUIREMENT FOR COVERAGE ON AN

                    INSURANCE COMPANY THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE

                    COVERING AND WHAT THEY'RE NOT.  AND THE POINT REALLY THAT THEY WERE

                    TRYING TO MAKE, I THINK, IN THEIR OPPOSITION TO THE BILL WAS REALLY THAT,

                    YOU KNOW, THESE ARE UNIQUE DETERMINATIONS THAT NEED TO BE MADE

                    PATIENT BY PATIENT APPLYING GUIDELINE TO THE THOUGHTFUL WAY.  AND THAT,

                    YOU KNOW, WHEN WE MANDATE THINGS DURING -- IN LEGISLATION IN SET

                    TREATMENT REQUIREMENTS, IT KIND OF CAN GET IN THE WAY OF DOING THAT

                    UNIQUE ANALYSIS ON A PER PATIENT BASIS.  SO THOSE ARE THE CONCERNS AND I

                    THANK THE SPONSOR FOR HER ANSWERS.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MADAM

                    SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  MS. BICHOTTE

                    HERMELYN.

                                 MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN:  ON THE BILL.  I JUST

                    WANTED TO KNOW THAT DURING A TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND A PREGNANCY CARE

                    PROVIDER PLACES A DEVICE INSIDE THE PATIENT'S VAGINAL CANAL.  IN EARLY

                    PREGNANCY THIS ULTRASOUND HELPS TO DETECT A FETAL HEARTBEAT OR

                    DETERMINE HOW FAR ALONG YOU ARE IN YOUR PREGNANCY, GESTATIONAL AGE.

                    IMAGES FROM A TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND ARE CLEARLY IN EARLY PREGNANCY

                    AS COMPARED TO ABDOMINAL ULTRASOUND.  A DOCTOR MIGHT RECOMMEND A

                    TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUND DURING A PREGNANCY TO MONITOR THE HEARTBEAT OF

                                         62



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    A FETUS, LOOK AT THE CERVIX FOR ANY CHANGES THAT COULD LEAD TO

                    COMPLICATIONS SUCH AS MISCARRIAGE OR PREMATURE DELIVERY, EXAMINE THE

                    PLACENTA FOR ABNORMALITIES AND IDENTIFY THE SOURCE OF ANY ABNORMAL

                    BLEEDING, DIAGNOSE OF POSSIBLE MISCARRIAGE AND IT'S TO ALSO TO CONFIRM

                    AN EARLY PREGNANCY.

                                 BUT I WANT TO TAKE THIS TIME TO -- TO SHARE WITH YOU A

                    HEARTBREAKING STORY OF CAROLYN SPIRO-LEVITT AND HER HUSBAND JOSH.

                    THEY LOST THEIR SON ELI PARKER LEVITT WHEN HE WAS BORN PREMATURELY AT

                    23 WEEKS IN 2020.  AT 20 WEEKS DURING A ROUTINE APPOINTMENT,

                    CAROLYN WAS TOLD THAT SHE WAS THREE CENTIMETERS DILATED, NEARLY FULLY

                    EFFACE AND ABOUT TO GO INTO LABOR DUE TO A CONDITION, CRUELLY NAMED

                    INCOMPETENT CERVIX.  AND UP UNTIL THAT POINT, THE LEVITTS BELIEVED THAT

                    EVERYTHING WAS FINE WITH THEIR PREGNANCY.  THIS CONDITION CAN BE

                    TREATED AND ADDRESSED IF CAUGHT IN TIME THROUGH EASY TO CONDUCT

                    TESTING.  TRAGICALLY BECAUSE CAROLYN WAS NOT TESTED FOR THE CONDITION

                    EARLIER IN HER PREGNANCY, THEIR SON ELI PASSED AWAY SHORTLY AFTER BEING

                    BORN.  THIS IS VITAL, LIFESAVING LEGISLATION THAT WILL PROTECT MOTHERS BY

                    REQUIRING INSURANCE COMPANIES TO COVER IMPORTANT PREVENTATIVE

                    MEDICAL PROCEDURES FOR PREGNANT MOMS IN NEW YORK, ESPECIALLY AS WE

                    FACE MATERNAL MORTALITY CRISIS.  WE'VE HEARD THE GROSS STATISTICS ON

                    RECORD-HIGH INFANT AND MATERNAL HEALTH COMPLICATIONS AND WE KNOW

                    THAT MANY MOTHERS, ESPECIALLY BLACK MOTHERS ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY AT

                    RISK.  I KNOW THIS ALL TOO WELL AS SOMEONE WHO LOST MY FIRST CHILD JONAH

                    BICHOTTE COWAN, DUE TO NEGLIGENT HEALTHCARE.  WE PASSED A LAW IN HIS

                    NAME TO MAKE MOTHERHOOD SAFER AND I'VE TAKEN THE LEAD IN THE FIGHT

                                         63



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    EVER SINCE.  NOW I'M HERE WITH MY HEALTHY BABY BOY DANIEL, FOUR YEARS

                    -- SIX YEARS LATER AND NOW OUR CRISIS HAS ONLY WORSENED. INFANT

                    MORTALITY RISEN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN TWO DECADES AND THE VAST MAJORITY

                    OF THESE DEATHS ARE PREVENTABLE.  AN INCOMPETENT CERVIX ALSO KNOWN AS

                    CERVICAL INSUFFICIENCY OCCURS WHEN WEAK CERVICAL TISSUES CAUSES OR

                    CONTRIBUTES TO PREMATURE BIRTH OR LOSS OF AN OTHERWISE HEALTHY

                    PREGNANCY.  BEFORE PREGNANCY A WOMAN'S CERVIX, THE LOWER PART OF THE

                    UTERUS THAT CONNECTS TO THE VAGINA, IS NORMALLY CLOSED AND RIGID.  AS

                    PREGNANCY PROGRESSES AND A WOMAN PREPARES TO GIVE BIRTH, THE CERVIX

                    GRADUALLY SOFTENS, DECREASES IN LENGTH AND OPENED. IF A WOMAN HAS AN

                    INCOMPETENT CERVIX, THE CERVIX MIGHT BEGIN TO OPEN TOO SOON CAUSING

                    PREMATURE BIRTH.  PERFORMING A TEST AND EXAMINATION ON ALL EXPECTING

                    WOMEN, HELPS TO ENSURE BETTER BIRTH OUTCOMES.  CERVICAL INCOMPETENCE

                    IS A KNOWN RISK FACTOR TO PRE-TERM BIRTH AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FIVE

                    PERCENT OF EXTREMELY PRE-TERM DELIVERIES.  THE UNITED STATES IS ONE OF

                    THE MOST DANGEROUS DEVELOPED NATIONS FOR PREGNANT MOTHERS AND THEIR

                    BABIES.  NEARLY TEN PERCENT OF ALL BABIES IN THE U.S. ARE BORN

                    PREMATURELY.  PREMATURE BIRTH AND ITS COMPLICATIONS ARE THE LEADING

                    CAUSE OF DEATH IN BABIES IN THE U.S.  OF THE BABIES WHO SURVIVE, MANY

                    HAVE LONGSTANDING HEALTH PROBLEMS INCLUDING CEREBRAL PALSY,

                    DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES, CHRONIC LUNG DISEASE AND ISSUES WITH VISION

                    AND HEARING.  ACCORDING TO THE CDC, MORE THAN 80 PERCENT OF THE

                    PREGNANCY-RELATED DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE PREVENTATIVE --

                    PREVENTABLE, AND WITH LIFESAVING MEDICAL PROCEDURES OUT OF REACH FOR

                    SO MANY, EVEN THOSE WITH INSURANCE, WE ALL -- WE ARE WELL PAST DUE TO

                                         64



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PASS THIS LAW AND MAKE MOTHERHOOD SAFER FOR ALL.  ONE OUT OF EVERY

                    200 MOTHERS GOES THROUGH THIS TRAUMA OF LOSING A CHILD DUE TO

                    PREVENTABLE COMPLICATIONS.  WE SHOULD BE INSTITUTING PREVENTATIVE

                    MEASURES TO REDUCE THIS.  ULTRASOUNDS ARE IMPORTANT.  HIGHLY

                    ENCOURAGE PRECAUTIONARY AND PREVENTATIVE PROCEDURES ROUTINELY

                    PERFORMED ON MOTHERS.  WE GIVE ULTRASOUNDS TO CHECK ON BABIES, AGAIN

                    HEARTBEAT, MUSCLE TONE, MOVEMENT AND OVERALL DEVELOPMENT.  TO

                    CHECK IF YOU'RE PREGNANT WITH TWINS, TRIPLETS, OR MORE.  TO CHECK IF

                    YOUR BABY IS THE HEAD FIRST POSITION BEFORE BIRTH, TO EXAMINE YOUR

                    OVARIES AND UTERUS FOR HEALTH ISSUES.  IT IS INFURIATING THAT INSURANCE

                    WILL NOT COVER A PROCEDURE THAT CAN SAVE A MOM AND HER CHILD'S LIFE.  IT

                    IS AN INSULT TO OUR COMMUNITIES FACING DEVASTATING HEALTH

                    CONSEQUENCES.  TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS ARE GENERALLY CONSIDERED SAFE

                    AND HAVE NO KNOWN HARMFUL EFFECTS AND ARE ROUTINE PROCEDURES.

                                 IN NEW YORK THEY ARE OUT OF REACH FOR COUNTLESS

                    EXPECTANT MOMS, ESPECIALLY THOSE MOST AT RISK.  THAT'S WHY I'M URGING

                    THE ASSEMBLY TO PASS THIS LAW TO MAKE VITAL TRANSVAGINAL ULTRASOUNDS

                    AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE FOR PREGNANT PERSONS IN NEW YORK.  WE ASK IN

                    THE ASSEMBLY TO VOTE THIS NOT ONLY IN THE NAME OF MY LATE SON JONAH

                    BICHOTTE COWAN, BUT IN THE NAME OF WHY I INTRODUCED THIS BILL, IN THE

                    NAME OF THE LATE ELI PARKER LEVITT.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. DIPIETRO.

                                 MR. DIPIETRO:  ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  ON THE BILL.

                                         65



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. DIPIETRO:  THANK YOU, MS. SPEAKER.  I RISE IN

                    SUPPORT OF THIS BILL.  I HAVE THE ULTRASOUND BILL HERE IN THE ASSEMBLY,

                    WHICH SAYS THAT BEFORE A PREGNANCY EVERY WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE

                    THE ULTRASOUND.  DID YOU KNOW THAT OVER 85 TO 90 PERCENT, 85 PERCENT

                    APPROXIMATELY OF WOMEN WHO SEE AN ULTRASOUND WILL KEEP THE BABY.

                    BUT DID YOU KNOW A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF MEN WHEN THEY SEE AN

                    ULTRASOUND WANT TO KEEP THE BABY.  UNFORTUNATELY, PLANNED PARENTHOOD

                    AND OTHER PRO-ABORTION INDUSTRIES WILL NOT ALLOW AN ULTRASOUND.  I STAND

                    BEHIND ANY BILL THAT PROVIDES ULTRASOUNDS TO WOMEN.  THIS BILL NO

                    DOUBT WILL CONVINCE WOMEN TO KEEP A BABY IF THEY HAVE DOUBTS.  THIS

                    WILL HELP.  THIS WILL SAVE ONE MORE BABY'S LIFE, MAYBE A LOT MORE.  I AM

                    ALL FOR ULTRASOUNDS.  THEY HAVE PROVEN TO BE EFFECTIVE.  I ALSO HAVE THE

                    HEARTBEAT BILL.  AND I'M JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE WITH THIS ULTRASOUND

                    BILL I'D LOVE TO SEE MY ULTRASOUND BILL GET PUT ON THE FLOOR AND PASS AND

                    I'D LOVE TO GIVE IT TO ANY ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES.

                                 I WAS AT A SCHOOL LAST WEEK DOING A GOVERNMENT CLASS

                    TO HIGH SCHOOLERS, AND MY POSITION ON LIFE CAME UP AND I EXPLAINED IT,

                    BUT I DID HAVE ONE HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR GIRL START ARGUING WITH ME AND

                    TELLING ME THAT LIFE DOESN'T BEGIN UNTIL THE 22ND WEEK OF PREGNANCY.

                    AND I TRIED VERY PASSIONATELY TO EXPLAIN TO HER THAT IT DOES AND I

                    EXPLAINED ABOUT THE ULTRASOUND.  I SAID IF YOU COULD SEE THE ULTRASOUND,

                    I CAN GIVE YOU SCIENTIFIC FACTS WHERE THE HEARTBEAT IS WITHIN SIX TO EIGHT

                    DAYS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  MR. DIPIETRO, CAN YOU

                    CONFINE YOUR REMARKS TO THIS BILL.  PLEASE?

                                         66



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. DIPIETRO:  I AM, THIS IS EXACTLY ABOUT THE BILL.

                    THIS IS ABOUT ULTRASOUND AND ABOUT HOW IT AFFECTS PEOPLE'S IDEAS AND

                    THEIR MINDSET OF PREGNANCY.  THAT'S WHAT THIS DOES.  THIS ULTRASOUND

                    BILL, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES, TO HELP WOMEN AND TO HELP THEM MAKE

                    THAT DECISION.  SO PLEASE, MAY I PROCEED?  SO THE GIRL AT THIS SCHOOL

                    WHEN I TOLD HER ABOUT ULTRASOUNDS AND HOW THEY AFFECTED, SHE DIDN'T

                    WANT TO HEAR IT.  SO I'M HOPING WITH THIS BILL, WITH MY BILL, THAT WE

                    HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE LIVES, TO CHANGE THE MINDSET OF WOMEN

                    AND MEN SO THAT WHEN THEY SEE THIS ULTRASOUND AND THIS BILL WILL HELP

                    SAVE POSSIBLY SOME LIVES BUT ALSO SOME ATTITUDES AND ALSO SOME IDEAS

                    THAT PEOPLE HAVE ABOUT PREGNANCY.

                                 SO I WILL BE VOTING FOR THIS BILL.  I WOULD ASK THAT ONE

                    OF MY COLLEAGUES PICK UP MY ULTRASOUND BILL ALSO SINCE THEY PRETTY

                    MUCH DO THE SAME THING.  THEY HELP WOMEN MAKE DECISIONS AND HELP

                    IN THEIR HEALTH.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. LAVINE.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  THIS IS A REAL GOOD BILL, AND I JUST

                    WANT TO THANK EVERYONE WHO HAS SPOKEN WITH RESPECT TO THIS BILL.  AND

                    I'M SPEAKING ON THE BILL.  AND IN CONCLUSION, I JUST WANT TO SIMPLY SAY

                    THAT I HAD CERTAINLY WANTED TO MAKE A NICE CONTRIBUTION TO PLANNED

                    PARENTHOOD BUT IT HAD JUST ESCAPED MY MIND, BUT I DO WANT TO THANK THE

                    -- ALL WHO SPOKE ABOUT PLANNED PARENTHOOD TODAY BECAUSE WHEN

                    SESSION IS OVER THIS EVENING AND I'M NOT IN THE LOB OR IN THE STATE

                    CAPITOL, I'LL BE MAKING ANOTHER NICE BIG CONTRIBUTION TO PLANNED

                                         67



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PARENTHOOD.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  THANK YOU.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST,

                    2026.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 10, RULES REPORT NO. 189, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09213-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 189, FAHY, DINOWITZ, WEPRIN, GLICK, COLTON, LUCAS,

                    SIMON, SHIMSKY, SLATER, BURDICK, FORREST, THIELE, EPSTEIN, L.

                    ROSENTHAL, SIMONE, SEAWRIGHT.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE NAVIGATION LAW,

                    IN RELATION TO FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE LIABILITY OF A MAJOR FACILITY

                    OR VESSEL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  AN EXPLANATION HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED, MS. FAHY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THANK YOU.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER

                    [SIC].  THIS BILL, WHICH I'VE HAD SOME VERSION OF FOR I THINK ALMOST TEN

                    YEARS, IT AMENDS THE LIABILITY PROVISIONS OF ARTICLE 12 OF THE NEW YORK

                    NAVIGATION LAW, WHICH ARE SECTIONS OF THE LAW CONTAINING

                    ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTIONS AND OIL SPILL COMPENSATION FUND.  ARTICLE 12

                                         68



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF THIS LAW ALREADY REQUIRES THAT ANY ENTITY HAVE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OIL

                    DISCHARGE AND ARE HELD LIABLE.  THIS -- THIS BILL, THOUGH, IT REQUIRES THAT

                    THEY SHOW THAT THEY HAVE FINANCIAL SURETY TO COVER ANY TYPE OF ACCIDENT

                    OR REMEDIATION SHOULD THERE BE A SPILL OR ACCIDENT.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER.  WILL

                    THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER SIMON:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. FAHY:  SURE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MS. FAHY.

                    DOES THIS BILL EXPAND ITS SCOPE TO COVER PETROLEUM STORAGE FACILITIES

                    THAT WERE NOT PREVIOUSLY COVERED?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND SO AREN'T THESE PETROLEUM

                    STORAGE FACILITIES ALREADY REGULATED BY THE DEC?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND AREN'T THEY ALREADY CONTAINED

                    WITHIN EARTH AND BERMS TO PREVENT ANY SPILLAGE FROM LEAVING THE

                    PREMISES?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES, BUT THIS IS TO DEMONSTRATE -- AGAIN,

                    THIS IS TO DEMONSTRATE INCREASED -- WELL, IT'S INCREASED ACCOUNTABILITY

                    AND IT MAKES SURE THAT IN ADDITION TO BEING LEGALLY LIABLE THAT THEY HAVE

                    THE SURETY AS WELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AM I CORRECT THAT THESE PETROLEUM

                                         69



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    STORAGE FACILITIES HAVE HAD ONLY MINOR SPILLS IN THE PAST, THAT WE HAVEN'T

                    HAD ANY MAJOR SPILLS; IS THAT CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MINOR ONES, BUT

                    AS WE KNOW MANY VESSELS HAVE HAD MORE -- MORE PROBLEMS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND WITH REGARD TO THE SURETY

                    REQUIREMENTS, WHAT ARE THE CURRENT REQUIREMENTS FOR PETROLEUM STORAGE

                    FACILITIES?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE $25 A GALLON.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  PER GALLON OR --

                                 MS. FAHY:  PER BARREL.  SORRY, PER BARREL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THAT'S WHAT THIS WOULD IMPOSE,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.  THIS -- THIS WOULD HAVE THE

                    INFLATION ADJUSTED ANNUALLY WHERE APPROPRIATE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND THE -- THAT AMOUNT WOULD BE

                    $25 PER BARREL PLUS INFLATION, RIGHT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  PLUS INFLATION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND WHAT IS THE CURRENT CRITERIA FOR

                    OIL STORAGE FACILITIES?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THAT'S IT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, OF COURSE, WE HAVE OIL

                    STORAGE FACILITIES AROUND THE STATE.  THAT'S HOW WE GET GASOLINE IN OUR

                    CARS, RIGHT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YEP.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WHAT IMPACT WILL THAT HAVE ON THE

                                         70



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    GAS PRICES?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I WOULD THINK IT SHOULD BE NEGLIGIBLE IF

                    ANY, BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS THIS IS STRENGTHENING ACCOUNTABILITY.  IT'S

                    VERY FOCUSED ON PREVENTION AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S FACTORING IN ANY RISKS

                    OF THE LAYERS OF RESPONSIBILITY WE THINK WILL BE HELPFUL HERE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, OF COURSE, EACH GAS STATION

                    THAT WE PASS HAS ANYWHERE FROM 15- TO 30,000 GALLONS OF UNDERGROUND

                    STORAGE TANKS FILLED -- HOPEFULLY FILLED WITH PETROLEUM PRODUCTS.  DOES

                    THIS APPLY TO THEM?

                                 MS. FAHY:  NO, UNLIKELY.  IT SHOULD BE MORE THAN

                    400,000 GALLONS.  THESE ARE MAJOR FACILITIES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  CAN WE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ITS

                    IMPACT ON RAILROADS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IMPACT ON?

                                 MR. GOODELL:  RAILROADS.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO WHAT -- WHAT DOES THIS IMPOSE

                    AS IT RELATES TO RAILROADS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT REQUIRES DISCLOSURE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW THE AMOUNT OF THE BOND FOR

                    RAILROADS, AM I CORRECT THAT IT'S BASED ON THE WORSE CASE SCENARIO?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES, AND AS ESTABLISHED BY DEC.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I SEE.  AND CAN YOU TELL ME, HAVE

                    WE EVER EXPERIENCED IN NEW YORK STATE A OIL SPILL BY A RAILROAD THAT

                    WASN'T CLEANED UP BY THE RAILROAD?

                                         71



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  IN NEW YORK STATE WE'VE HAD A NUMBER

                    OF SPILLS, BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN SOMEWHAT CONTAINED.  KEEP IN

                    MIND, HOWEVER, WE'VE HAD AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF SPILLS AND

                    ACCIDENTS, AND WHEN I FIRST DID THIS BILL IT WAS ACTUALLY BASED ON SOME

                    HORRIFIC ACCIDENTS PARTICULARLY THE LAC-MÉGANTIC IN QUEBEC, CANADA

                    WHERE 47 PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND THE RAILROAD WAS INSURED BUT ONLY TO

                    THE TUNE OF $25 MILLION AND IT WAS A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR DISASTER.

                    WE'VE SEEN A SIMILAR INCIDENT IN EAST PALETINE [SIC], OHIO AND WHILE

                    WE'VE HAD -- WE'VE HAD A NUMBER OF INCIDENCES HERE IN NEW YORK JUST

                    IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.  NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC, BUT THERE

                    WAS ONE, FOR INSTANCE, IN EAST AURORA JUST IN 2020, A SMALL VILLAGE IN

                    ERIE COUNTY, WHERE THERE WAS A DERAILMENT.  AND AGAIN, IT WAS -- THE

                    TRAIN WAS FILLED WITH PROPANE AND THEY HADN'T EVEN PROVIDED THE CORRECT

                    NUMBER OF CARS OR CONTENT.  THAT TRAIN HAPPENED TO BE ON ITS WAY TO

                    ALBANY AND WAS TRANSPORTING HIGHLY FLAMMABLE PETROL CHEMICALS.  AT

                    THAT TIME SENATOR SCHUMER DID CALL ON THE FEDERAL RAILROAD

                    ADMINISTRATION AND CONDUCTED AN INVESTIGATION AND CALLED ON BETTER

                    SAFETY MEASURES.  SO WHILE WE ARE NOT ADDRESSING THAT, WE ARE ENSURING

                    THAT THEY HAVE THE SURETY OR THE INSURANCE TO COVER ANY CATASTROPHIC

                    ACCIDENT AND MAKE SURE THAT WE, YOU KNOW, WHICH WE THINK WILL HELP

                    WITH BETTER SAFETY STANDARDS.  SO WE'VE HAD A NUMBER, YOU KNOW,

                    THERE'S FOUR OR FOUR JUST IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.  AGAIN, NONE OF THEM

                    HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC, BUT CERTAINLY AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IN

                    CANADA WE HAVE SEEN CATASTROPHIC INCIDENCES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WELL, THANK YOU FOR OUTLINING THE

                                         72



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SITUATIONS WHERE THERE'S BEEN A SPILL.  MY QUESTION IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

                    MY QUESTION IS, HAS THERE EVER BEEN A SITUATION IN NEW YORK STATE

                    WHERE THE RAILROAD FAILED TO CLEAN UP THE SPILL OR FAILED TO PAY THE

                    DAMAGES?  HAS THERE EVER BEEN SUCH A SITUATION WHERE THE RAILROAD

                    DIDN'T PAY, AND IF SO WHEN AND WHERE?

                                 MS. FAHY:  AT THIS POINT, THE INCIDENCES I

                    MENTIONED WERE ALL ADDRESSED BY THE RAILROADS.  BUT LET'S KEEP IN MIND

                    THOSE RAILROADS WERE OFTEN FROM OUT-OF-STATE, THEY TRAVEL ACROSS THE

                    COUNTRY, THEY TRAVEL IN FROM CANADA AND MORE.  THERE HAVE BEEN

                    INCIDENCES, AND WHILE THIS ADDRESSES NEW YORK AND WE HAVEN'T HAD

                    SPECIFIC INCIDENTS IN NEW YORK, THIS IS ABOUT ENSURING THAT THOSE TRAINS,

                    ONCE THEY HIT NEW YORK THEY ARE FULLY INSURED TO ADDRESS THE LIABILITY

                    OR COVER THE LIABILITY THAT THEY NOW ALREADY CARRY.  SO WHILE NO SPECIFIC

                    INCIDENCES IN NEW YORK, WE CERTAINLY HAVE SEEN THOSE AROUND THE

                    COUNTRY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  YOU MENTIONED SEVERAL SPILLS

                    AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.  IN ANY OF THOSE SPILLS, DID

                    THE RAILROAD FAIL TO CLEAN IT UP OR PAY THE DAMAGES?

                                 MS. FAHY:  WELL, WE KNOW IN EAST OHIO OR -- SORRY,

                    EAST PALETINE [SIC], OHIO WE KNOW THAT THAT IS VERY MUCH TIED UP IN

                    LITIGATION, AND IN CERTAINLY IN CANADA, NOT THAT FAR IN QUEBEC, CERTAINLY

                    THEY -- THEY FAILED.  AND SINCE THEN -- SINCE THEN I SHOULD NOTE, THAT

                    CANADA HAS INCREASED THOSE LIABILITY COSTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS

                    SURETY OR BONDS TO COVER ANY LIABILITY.  NEW JERSEY HAS DONE SO,

                    CALIFORNIA AND OTHERS HAVE DONE SO AS A RESULT OF SOME OF THESE MAJOR

                                         73



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ACCIDENTS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NEW YORK HAS, OF COURSE, ITS OIL

                    SPILL PREVENTION CONTROL AND COMPENSATION TRUST FUND.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YEP.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  HOW MUCH IS IN THAT FUND

                    CURRENTLY?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT'S IN THE TENS OF MILLIONS -- I DON'T HAVE

                    AN UPDATED NUMBER ON THAT, BUT IT IS -- IT CERTAINLY IS NOT, NOT FAIR TO

                    ADDRESS ANY CATASTROPHIC ACCIDENTS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IS IN

                    THAT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  I DON'T HAVE AN -- I DON'T HAVE AN

                    UPDATED NUMBER.  IT'S CERTAINLY NOT IN THE BILLIONS.  THE LAST TIME I

                    CHECKED I THOUGHT IT WAS IN THE TENS OF MILLIONS, BUT I DON'T HAVE AN

                    UPDATED NUMBER.  NOTHING --

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW WE ALSO --

                                 MS. FAHY: -- NOTHING TO ADDRESS ANYTHING LIKE THIS,

                    AGAIN, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE PUSHING SOME TYPE OF INSURANCE, SURETY

                    BOND OR OTHER LETTER OF CREDIT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AM I CORRECT THAT THAT FUND

                    CONTAINS MORE THAN THE INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE CONTAINED IN

                    THIS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I'M SORRY, MR. GOODELL.  WHAT WAS THAT?

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I WAS JUST QUESTIONING WHETHER OR

                    NOT THAT FUND ALREADY CONTAINS MORE IN THE FUND THAN THE INSURANCE

                                         74



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REQUIREMENTS IMPOSED BY THIS.  BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IS IN THE

                    FUND SO I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT QUESTION.

                                 MS. FAHY:  NO, AND REMEMBER, THE FUND IS NOT

                    ESTABLISHED TO COVER ALL OF THIS.  THAT IS PART OF WHY WE WANT TO MAKE

                    SURE THAT THERE IS A FULL INSURANCE AND DEMONSTRATION OF A FULL INSURANCE

                    ESPECIALLY FOR ANY TYPE OF CATASTROPHIC INCIDENT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  OF COURSE THE FEDERAL INTERSTATE

                    COMMERCE COMMISSION TERMINATION ACT OF 1995 DEALS SPECIFICALLY

                    WITH FEDERAL PREEMPTION OVER THIS AREA.  THE RAILROADS HAVE SUGGESTED

                    THAT ANY PROVISION THAT'S INCONSISTENT WITH THE FEDERAL STANDARDS IS

                    CLEARLY PREEMPTED AND IN FACT, THE ICCTA, THE INTERSTATE COMMERCE

                    COMMISSION TERMINATION ACT AGENCY HAS INTERPRETED PREEMPTION TO

                    APPLY TO QUOTE, "ANY FORM OF STATE OR LOCAL PERMITTING OR

                    PRE-CLEARANCES BY ITS NATURE COULD BE USED TO DELAY A RAILROAD, THE

                    ABILITY TO CONDUCT SOME OR ALL OF ITS OPERATIONS OR PROCEED WITH

                    ACTIVITIES THAT THE BOARD IS AUTHORIZED." ISN'T THIS IS A STATE EFFORT TO

                    REQUIRE SOME TYPE OF PRECLEARANCE OR LOCAL STANDARDS THAT COULD IMPACT

                    ON RAILROAD TRANSPORTATIONS IN VIOLATION OF THE FEDERAL PREEMPTION?

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE HAVE REPEATEDLY LOOKED AT THE

                    PREEMPTION ISSUES HERE.  THIS BILL IS NOT PREEMPTED.  LAWS SUCH AS THE

                    FEDERAL LAW, THE OIL POLLUTION ACT OF 1990 OR OPA 90, SET MINIMUM

                    STANDARDS ON OIL PREVENTION AND SPILLS AND IT EXPLICITLY ALLOWED STATES

                    TO IMPOSE ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS.  THIS BILL DOES NOT DIRECTLY CONFLICT

                    WITH ANY SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS OF THAT OR ANY FEDERAL LAW AND IT ALLOWS

                    US TO ADD LAYERS OF PROTECTION AND RESPONSIBILITY.  AGAIN, THIS -- WE'VE

                                         75



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BEEN -- WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD QUITE A BIT ON THIS BILL AND THAT IS

                    WHY WE'RE ADDRESSING JUST THE INSURANCE PIECE OF IT OR THE SURETY PIECE

                    OF IT.  THIS IS TO REENFORCE WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

                    AND AS -- AS I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE, VERY MUCH IT IS A STATE'S RIGHTS

                    ISSUE TO PROTECT OUR OWN NATURAL RESOURCES, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE

                    NOT COVERED BY FEDERAL REGULATION.  AND AGAIN, WE'VE SEEN TOO MANY

                    EXAMPLES, TOO MANY NEAR CATASTROPHIC DISASTERS AND THAT IS AGAIN WHY

                    THIS BILL DOES DISCUSS A PREPAREDNESS FOR WORST CASE SCENARIOS, BECAUSE

                    WE'VE SEEN WORSE CASE SCENARIOS EVEN IF WE HAVEN'T SEEN THEM HERE IN

                    NEW YORK.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW THIS SECTION OF THE LAW IS

                    CONTAINED IN THE NAVIGATION LAW.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND IT REQUIRES THE DEPARTMENT TO

                    CALCULATE THE REASONABLE WORSE CASE SCENARIO.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WHICH DEPARTMENT WOULD BE DOING

                    THAT, THAT ANALYSIS UNDER THE NAVIGATION LAW?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE INTENT IS DEC.  THERE IS

                    CONSULTATION LANGUAGE I THINK WITH DFS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  OKAY.  AND IS THERE ANY CAP ON THAT

                    POTENTIAL LIABILITY THAT RAILROADS WOULD HAVE TO COVER?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT'S A DISCLOSURE AND THAT IS AGAIN PART OF

                    THE NEGOTIATION ON THIS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT I MEAN WE HAVE A CAP, RIGHT,

                                         76



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ON VESSELS, THAT'S ONE MILLION.  IS THERE ANY CAP ON RAILROAD LIABILITY?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THEY JUST -- THERE IS NO CAP BUT THEY

                    HAVE TO DISCLOSE WHAT THEY HAVE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  IF A RAILROAD IS UNWILLING TO --

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT'S BASED ON WASHINGTON -- STATE OF

                    WASHINGTON LAW IN 2018 WHERE WE HAD SOME EXAMPLES OF THIS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  IF A RAILROAD FAILS OR REFUSES TO POST

                    A BOND TO COVER A WORSE CASE SCENARIO, WHAT IS THE REMEDY?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IF THEY FAIL, THE BILL EXPLICITLY NOTES THAT

                    IT WOULD BE UNLAWFUL.  THE BILL EXPLICITLY NOTES THAT IT WOULD BE

                    UNLAWFUL TO OPERATE A VESSEL THAT IS NON-COMPLIANT WITH THE SURETY OF

                    REQUIREMENTS LAID OUT IN THIS BILL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  DOES THAT MEAN THEN IF A RAILROAD IS

                    REFUSING TO PROVIDE A SURETY OR INSURANCE POLICY FOR A WORSE CASE

                    SCENARIO THAT THE STATE OF NEW YORK WOULD SHUT DOWN A RAILROAD?

                                 MS. FAHY:  STATE OF NEW YORK HAS THE ABILITY TO --

                    TO CITE THEM.  YEAH, TO MAKE IT -- YEAH.  I MEAN THEY HAVE TO SHOW THAT

                    REQUIREMENT JUST AS WE HAVE OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN PEOPLE -- AGAIN,

                    AS I MENTIONED, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OUR OWN NATURAL RESOURCES.

                    AND WE ARE ADDRESSING THE -- JUST AS WE CAN INSPECT THOSE TRAINS WHEN

                    THEY COME INTO THESE BORDERS AS WE DO, THIS IS ANOTHER REQUIREMENT THAT

                    WOULD BE ADDED ON TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN COVER.  THEY ALREADY HAVE

                    THE LIABILITY.  THIS IS SHOWING THAT THEY WOULD HAVE THE SURETY.  SO THE

                    LEGAL LIABILITY IS THERE.  THIS IS REQUIRING THE SURETY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.

                                         77



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 THANK YOU, MS. FAHY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF NEW

                    YORK STATE INCREASING THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS.  IT'S AN EXPENSIVE

                    SOLUTION LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM.  AS MY COLLEAGUE NOTED WE HAVE NO

                    EXAMPLES IN THE 250+ YEARS OF NEW YORK STATE WHERE A RAILROAD

                    CAUSED A SPILL OF OIL WHERE THEY DIDN'T CLEAN IT UP AND PAY FOR IT.  NOW

                    THE RAILROADS THAT ARE GOING THROUGH NEW YORK STATE, WHETHER IT'S

                    CONRAIL OR NORFOLK SOUTHERN OR ANY OTHER RAILROAD, THEIR BALANCE SHEET

                    IS BETTER THAN OURS.  THEY HAVE MORE CASH.  THEY HAVE A BETTER CASH

                    FLOW AND THEIR BALANCE SHEET IS BETTER THAN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.  WE

                    HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM.  THEIR BALANCE SHEET IS BETTER THAN OURS.

                    WE ALREADY HAVE A REQUIREMENT IN TERMS OF A TRUST FUND TO BACK IT UP IF

                    FOR SOME REASON SOMETHING WENT AWRY, AND WE ALREADY HAVE FEDERAL

                    STANDARDS.  AND AS MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT, UNDER THIS BILL, IF A

                    RAILROAD WAS UNWILLING TO POST A BOND OR A SURETY WHICH COSTS MONEY

                    WHICH IS THEN PASSED ON TO THE CUSTOMERS, WHICH THEN RESULTS IN HIGHER

                    PRICES FOR CONSUMERS, IF THEY DIDN'T DO THAT, MY COLLEAGUE SUGGESTED WE

                    COULD SHUT DOWN THE RAILROAD.  WOULDN'T THAT CREATE INTERESTING SUPPLY

                    CHALLENGES.  NOW JUST BECAUSE WE CAN IMPOSE ADDITIONAL COST ON

                    CONSUMERS THAT USE RAILROADS DOESN'T MEAN WE OUGHT TO DO IT.  THIS IS

                    THANKFULLY PREEMPTED BY FEDERAL REGULATIONS BECAUSE THE FEDERAL

                    GOVERNMENT HAS SAID BECAUSE INTERSTATE RAILROADS ARE SUCH A VITAL PART

                                         78



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF OUR NATIONAL ECONOMY, STATES CAN'T ENACT LAWS THAT INTERFERE WITH THAT

                    INTERSTATE COMMERCE.  THANK GOODNESS.  THIS WOULD ALSO, BY THE WAY,

                    REQUIRE THE RAILROADS TO DISCLOSE ALL THEIR CONTRACTS FOR INSURANCE

                    COVERAGE AND REINSURANCE AND SURETIES, SOME OF WHICH MAY HAVE

                    CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THEY DON'T WANT TO SHARE WITH THEIR

                    COMPETITORS, WHETHER IT'S TRUCKING COMPANIES OR OTHER RAILROADS.  SO IF

                    WE HAVEN'T HAD A PROBLEM IN OVER 200 AND SOME YEARS, SINCE THE

                    RAILROADS WERE BUILT IN THIS COUNTRY, IF THE RAILROADS' BALANCE SHEET IS

                    BETTER THAN OURS AS THE STATE OF NEW YORK, IF THEY ARE ALREADY REQUIRED

                    UNDER FEDERAL REGULATIONS TO CARRY APPROPRIATE LIABILITY COVERAGE, WE

                    DON'T NEED TO INCREASE THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN NEW YORK STATE

                    AND HAVE THOSE COSTS PASSED ON TO OUR CONSUMERS WHO ARE HOPING THAT

                    AT SOME POINT IN OUR CAREER WE HELP REDUCE THEIR COST RATHER THAN

                    INCREASE THEIR COST OF LIVING IN NEW YORK.

                                 FOR THAT REASON I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT, BUT AGAIN, I

                    THANK MY COLLEAGUE FOR HER ANSWERS AND HER INSIGHTS.  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. FAHY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  JUST A QUICK RESPONSE ON THAT.  WHILE I

                    APPRECIATE THAT IT MAY BE RARE THAT NEW YORK WANTS TO BE PROACTIVE

                    INSTEAD OF REACTIVE, I DO THINK THAT THIS IS IMPORTANT TO BE PROACTIVE

                    HERE BECAUSE -- BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE HORRIFIC ACCIDENTS INCLUDING THE

                    ONE JUST ONE YEAR AGO IN EAST PALETINE [SIC], OHIO WHERE COSTS ARE NOW

                    ALREADY OVER $1 BILLION AND 115,000 GALLONS OF VINYL CHLORIDE OF

                    HAZARDOUS -- SEPARATE HAZARDOUS MATERIAL, NOT PETROLEUM.  WE ARE

                                         79



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FOCUSED ON PETROLEUM PRODUCTS, BUT OTHER HAZARDOUS MATERIALS ENDED

                    UP IN THEIR WATERWAYS THERE IN OHIO.  WE -- IN LAC-MÉGANTIC AGAIN, THE

                    RAILROAD THERE AFTER KILLING 47 PEOPLE AND DEVASTATING AN ENTIRE TOWN

                    WITH A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COST, THE RAILROAD WENT BANKRUPT AND ONLY

                    HAD 2,500 -- 25 MILLION IN INSURANCE.  WE HAVE HAD -- THE EPA

                    ESTIMATES THAT WE HAVE HAD SOME TYPE OF TRAIN CHEMICAL ACCIDENTS

                    EVERY -- A COUPLE, ONE EVERY A FEW DAYS TO A WEEK, AND IN 2022 THERE

                    WERE 188 ACCIDENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY, 177 IN 2021.  I THINK THE

                    THOUGHT THAT WE MIGHT BE PROACTIVE HERE.  AGAIN, THE LIABILITY IS ALREADY

                    ON THE PART OF THE RAILROADS.  THIS IS MAKING SURE THAT THAT LIABILITY IS

                    COVERED SO THAT THEY CAN OR DEMONSTRATE THERE THAT THEY WOULD BE

                    FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE VIA INSURANCE SURETY BONDS OR LETTERS OF CREDIT.

                    THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 120TH

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  HOPEFULLY WE'RE

                    ON THE RIGHT TRACK ON THIS BILL.  THE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY

                    OPPOSED, BUT CERTAINLY THOSE WHO WANT TO HEAD ON A DIFFERENT TRACK CAN

                    VOTE YES.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. SOLAGES.

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE

                                         80



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THOSE WHO CHOO -- CHOO -- CHOOSE TO VOTE IN

                    THE NEGATIVE CAN DO SO AT THEIR DESKS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 THANK YOU BOTH.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 11, RULES REPORT NO. 197, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  SENATE NO. S09379, RULES REPORT NO.

                    179, SENATOR HARCKHAM (BURDICK, L. ROSENTHAL, COLTON, SEAWRIGHT,

                    OTIS, THIELE--A09712).  AN ACT TO AMEND THE ENVIRONMENTAL

                    CONSERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING THE APPLICATION OF

                    PESTICIDES TO CERTAIN LOCAL FRESHWATER WETLANDS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MR. BURDICK.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  CERTAINLY, THANK YOU.  THIS BILL

                    WOULD ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO PROHIBIT THE APPLICATION OF CERTAIN

                    PESTICIDES FOR FRESHWATER WETLANDS LINKED TO DRINKING WATER OR CLASS A

                    WATER BODIES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. SIMPSON.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WOULD

                    THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  CERTAINLY.

                                         81



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK YIELDS,

                    SIR.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  GOOD AFTERNOON.  WE'RE -- WE'RE

                    HERE AGAIN ON THIS BILL.  THIS IS -- I THINK IT'S BEEN BEFORE US TWICE

                    ALREADY, THIS IS THE THIRD TIME; AM I CORRECT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NOT REALLY, BECAUSE THIS IS

                    SUBSTANTIALLY REVISED FROM THE PRIOR VERSIONS.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT'S CHANGED

                    FROM THE PRIOR BILL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  CERTAINLY, BE HAPPY TO.  THIS HAS

                    BEEN SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCED IN SCOPE.  THE PRIOR BILLS -- THE PRIOR BILL

                    WOULD PERTAIN TO THE CERTAIN LIMITATIONS, ALL FRESHWATER WETLANDS WITHIN

                    A PARTICULAR MUNICIPALITY.  WHAT THIS IS DOING IS IT NARROWS THAT DOWN

                    ONLY TO THOSE WETLANDS THAT ARE HYDROLOGICALLY CONNECTED TO -- TO

                    DRINKING WATER.  IN PARTICULAR, IT WOULD STAY -- IT PROVIDES THE

                    PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL APPLY ONLY TO THOSE WETLANDS WHICH ARE

                    HYDROLOGICALLY CONNECTED TO ANY RESERVOIR, RESERVOIR STEM, CLASS A

                    WATERWAY OR OTHER SOURCE OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY.  IN ADDITION, THERE'S

                    AN EXEMPTION THAT HAS BEEN ADDED TO IT; THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION

                    SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO PROHIBIT OR LIMIT THE USE OF APPLICATION OF

                    PESTICIDES IN CONNECTION WITH COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURAL ACTIVITIES, NOR TO

                    CONTRADICT ANY OTHER PROVISIONS OF THIS CHAPTER RELATING TO SUCH USE.  SO

                    IT'S A SIGNIFICANT NARROWING.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  SO COULD YOU TELL ME HOW MANY

                    ACRES THAT INVOLVES IN NEW YORK STATE?

                                         82



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO, I CAN'T.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  WELL, THERE'S ABOUT A MILLION ACRES

                    OR MORE.  THAT'S AFTER THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE LEGISLATION THAT WAS

                    PASSED IN 2022, 2023, THE WETLANDS PROTECTION ACT --

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, THAT'S --

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  HOLD ON A SECOND, PLEASE.  MOST

                    WETLANDS ARE CONNECTED HYDRAULICALLY [SIC] TO MOST RESERVOIRS.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SO IT ISN'T QUITE ACCURATE WHAT

                    YOU'RE STATING, BECAUSE FOR WETLANDS THAT RIGHT NOW EXCEED 12.4 ACRES,

                    THEY'RE REGULATED BY THE DEC.  AND RIGHT NOW, FRESHWATER WETLANDS ARE

                    -- THAT ARE HANDLED BY LOCALITIES ARE EXCLUSIVELY THOSE THAT UNDER 12.4

                    ACRES.  AND, IN FACT, THAT'S GONNA NARROW FURTHER IN CONNECTION WITH THE

                    REFERENCE THAT YOU JUST MADE -- MADE BECAUSE BEGINNING IN 2028, THAT

                    THRESHOLD IS GOING TO BE REDUCED TO 7.4 ACRES.  SO I THINK THAT YOUR

                    STATEMENT IS INACCURATE.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  THERE'S 1,400 MUNICIPALITIES.  IS

                    THAT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT HOW MANY MUNICIPALITIES THAT COULD BE

                    AFFECTED BY --

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO, I THINK THAT'S INACCURATE AS

                    WELL, WITH DUE -- DUE RESPECT, BECAUSE THIS ONLY PERTAINS TO THOSE

                    MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL

                    CONSERVATION LAW ENABLING STATUTE, ADOPTED A FRESHWATER WETLANDS

                    LAW, AND THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY 70 THAT HAVE DONE SO.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  OKAY.  SO ARTICLE -- ARE YOU

                    FAMILIAR WITH ARTICLE 24 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW?

                                         83



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BURDICK:  PRETTY WELL, YES.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  WELL, THIS BILL AMENDS ARTICLE 24.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  ARTICLE 24 PROVIDES FOR THE

                    DELEGATORY [SIC] SCHEME TO ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO ENACT LOCAL

                    FRESHWATER WETLAND REGULATIONS AND SEEK DELEGATION OF PERMITTING

                    AUTHORITY FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION.  IT'S MY CONTENTION

                    THAT IT'S NOT FOR THE REGULATION OF PESTICIDES, WHICH IN ARTICLE 33 -- I

                    DON'T KNOW, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH ARTICLE 33?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I HAVE SOME FAMILIARITY, YES.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  ARTICLE 33 IS ACTUALLY THE SECTION OF

                    LAW THAT -- I'VE GOT TO FIND MY PAPER HERE -- THAT DEALS WITH THE

                    DELEGATION OF -- PREEMPTIVE DELEGATION AND DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE LOCAL

                    REGULATION.  SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO

                    SECTIONS OF LAW; ONE DEALS WITH THE WETLANDS, OTHER ONE IS WITH THE

                    PESTICIDE PREEMPTIVE ACTIONS.  THIS DOESN'T AMEND ARTICLE 33; AM I

                    CORRECT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  MR. -- I'M SORRY, BUT IS THERE A

                    QUESTION?

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  YES.  DOES THIS AMEND ARTICLE 33?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO, IT DOES NOT.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  DO YOU AGREE THAT ARTICLE 24 DEALS

                    WITH WETLANDS REGULATIONS AND PERMITTING OF THE AUTHORITY FROM THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AND ARTICLE 33 IS ACTUALLY

                    THE SECTION THAT DEALS WITH PESTICIDE REGULATIONS?

                                         84



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THEY OPERATE INDEPENDENTLY, MR.

                    SIMPSON.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  EXCUSE ME, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, THEY OPERATE INDEPENDENTLY.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  OKAY.  I'M GOING TO MOVE ON.

                                 WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURE?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I THINK WE WOULD LOOK TO THE

                    AGRICULTURE AND MARKETS LAW FOR THAT.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  IS THERE A DEFINITION FOR COMMERCIAL

                    AG, THOUGH?  IT'S -- IT'S EXEMPT ACCORDING TO YOUR BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THAT WOULD BE WITHIN THE PROVINCE

                    OF THE DEC TO DETERMINE THE EXTENT OF THAT EXEMPTION.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  BUT THIS REGU -- THIS -- THIS CHANGE IN

                    LAW IS GIVING LOCAL AUTHORITY TO A STATE POLICY DEALING WITH THE

                    REGULATION OF PESTICIDES.  SO NOW WE'VE STILL GOT THE INTERACTION

                    BETWEEN TWO AGENCIES AND DECIDING WHO'S IN AND WHO'S OUT, WHO'S

                    AFFECTED, WHO'S NOT.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THERE'S INTERACTION BETWEEN THE

                    DEC AND THE LOCALITIES WITH SOME REGULARITIES, SO I DON'T THINK THAT

                    THERE'S ANYTHING UNUSUAL OR INAPPROPRIATE ABOUT THAT.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  WELL, I JUST -- I ASK THAT QUESTION

                    BECAUSE I'D NEVER HEARD OF THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AG AND

                    AGRICULTURE, SO IT RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHO WOULD BE AFFECTED ADJACENT

                    TO THESE WETLANDS OR, YOU KNOW, CLOSE ENOUGH TO BE AFFECTED BY A LOCAL

                    MUNICIPALITY MAKING THE DECISION OF WHETHER THEY COULD USE PESTICIDES

                                         85



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OR NOT IN THEIR AGRICULTURAL OPERATION.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, I THINK THE -- THE LANGUAGE

                    HERE IS PRETTY PLAIN, AS I JUST READ, WHICH -- AND I CAN REPEAT IT -- AND

                    THAT IS THAT THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO

                    PROHIBIT OR LIMIT THE USE OR APPLICATION OF PESTICIDES IN CONNECTION WITH

                    COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURAL ACTIVITIES, NOR TO CONTRADICT ANY OTHER

                    PROVISIONS OF THIS CHAPTER RELATING TO SUCH USE.  AND THIS CHAPTER, BEING

                    CHAPTER 24 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW, WOULD BE

                    CONSTRUED IN -- THROUGH THE DEC, AND I'M SURE THAT ANY CONCERNS COULD

                    BE RESOLVED IN THAT FASHION.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  WHICH PESTICIDES ARE YOU -- HAVE

                    BEEN BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED WITH THAT YOU

                    WOULD WANT TO TAKE OVER -- GIVE MUNICIPALITIES THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE

                    DECISIONS WHETHER THEY'RE ALLOWED OR NOT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  AT THIS POINT, YOU WOULD GO TO THE

                    DEFINITION OF PESTICIDES, WHICH IS IN EXISTING LAW UNDER SECTION

                    33-0101 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  STILL, IS THERE A SPECIFIC PESTICIDE?

                    IS THERE A CONCERN -- I'M TRYING TO EXTRAPOLATE WHAT THE CONCERN IS WHEN

                    WE'RE DEALING WITH A BILL THAT ON THE OUT -- ON THE FACE OF IT SEEMS TO

                    UNDERMINE THE GREAT WORK THAT WE'VE DONE IN NEW YORK THROUGH

                    DEC'S EFFORTS IN REGULATING PESTICIDE USE IN NEW YORK.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SO A MUNICIPALITY MAY HAVE A

                    GREATER CONCERN, PARTICULARLY SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DRINKING WATER.

                    NOW, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THAT WE WOULD PUT PESTICIDES ON OUR

                                         86



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CEREAL, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE WOULD PREFER TO HAVE PESTICIDES IN OUR

                    DRINKING WATER.  AND I THINK THAT MUNICIPALITIES RECOGNIZE, AS SCIENCE

                    DOES, THE INEXTRICABLE LINK BETWEEN WETLANDS AND DRINKING WATER

                    BECAUSE WHATEVER LEECHES INTO THE GROUNDWATER IS GOING TO AFFECT

                    DRINKING WATER.  AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I NARROWED THE

                    SCOPE OF IT, BECAUSE THE GREATEST CONCERN THAT I'VE HEARD FROM

                    MUNICIPALITIES IS THE IMPACT ON DRINKING WATER.  WE IN THE STATE ARE

                    SPENDING TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO TAKE CONTAMINANTS OUT OF

                    DRINKING WATER.  IT WOULD SEEM LOGICAL AND REASONABLE THAT WE WOULD

                    TAKE STEPS TO PREVENT THAT AT THE SOURCE.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO PROTECT

                    OUR DRINKING WATER, BUT ISN'T THAT THE JOB OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

                    WHO OVERSEES OUR DRINKING WATER, AS WELL AS RELEASES FROM WASTEWATER

                    FACILITIES AND CLEAN WATER?  I MEAN, THAT'S ALL WORKING THROUGH ENVIRON

                    -- ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.  WE HAVE

                    STANDARDS TO MEET FOR ALL DRINKING WATER.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  RIGHT, AND I -- I THINK THAT WE WANT

                    TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO ASSIST OUR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO BE IN A BETTER

                    POSITION TO MEET THOSE STANDARDS AND TO ENSURE THAT THOSE STANDARDS ON

                    A GOING-FORWARD BASIS WILL BE MET.  AND --

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  SO WE ARE --

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'M SORRY.  GO AHEAD, MR. SIMPSON.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  SO AM I RIGHT TO CONCLUDE -- TO

                    COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE'RE NOT MEETING THOSE STANDARDS WITH

                    OUR CURRENT AGENCIES?

                                         87



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WHAT I'M SUGGESTING, MR. SIMPSON,

                    IS THAT IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE PURITY OF DRINKING WATER, ONE OF THE

                    COMPONENTS IN THAT IS TO PREVENT ANY CONTAMINANTS TO GO INTO THE

                    DRINKING WATER SO THAT THRESHOLDS WILL NOT BECOME EXCEEDED.  AND, YOU

                    KNOW, THERE'S SOME THAT WILL ARGUE THAT A LOT OF WHAT WE FIND IN THE

                    WAY OF CONTAMINANTS DO HAVE THEIR SOURCE IN PESTICIDES.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  OKAY.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  AND -- AND WE ARE FINDING ALMOST

                    ON WEEKLY BASIS THAT THOSE CHEMICALS, THOSE PESTICIDES, THOSE

                    CONTAMINANTS THAT IN THE PAST WERE DEEMED TO BE SAFE, AND THOSE LEVELS

                    THAT WERE DEEMED TO BE SAFE, IN FACT, ARE NOT.  THERE HAD BEEN A TIME

                    WHEN DDT WAS CONSIDERED -- COULD BE USED WITH ABANDON, ONLY TO

                    FIND THAT IT HAD DELETERIOUS EFFECTS.  THERE WAS A TIME WHEN ASBESTOS

                    WAS CONSIDERED TO BE ABSOLUTELY SAFE, ONLY TO FIND THAT IT WAS A

                    CARCINOGEN.  AND SO WE'RE DEALING, IN MANY RESPECTS, WITH TRYING TO

                    TAKE PREVENTATIVE MEASURES IN ORDER TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  SO I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHO'S GONNA

                    MAKE THIS DECISION?  IT'S GONNA GIVE MUNICIPALITIES THE AUTHORITY TO

                    DECIDE WHAT PESTICIDES CAN BE USED, WHAT CAN'T.  WILL THAT BE A TOWN

                    BOARD, WILL THAT BE A TOWN SUPERVISOR, WILL THAT BE A CONSULTANT?  WHO

                    WILL MAKE THAT DECISION IN THOSE MUNICIPALITIES?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SO, YOU KNOW, I -- I THINK THAT IT'S

                    HELPFUL TO UNDERSTAND -- AND -- AND I APPRECIATE YOUR QUESTION.  LIKE

                    YOU, I HAVE A HIGH REGARD FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT.  I COME OUT OF LOCAL

                    GOVERNMENT.  I FEEL LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB.  AND IN

                                         88



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THIS PARTICULAR AREA OF WETLANDS PROTECTION, THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS JOB

                    SINCE THE LATE 1970S, SHORTLY AFTER THE ADOPTION -- THE ENACTMENT OF THE

                    FEDERAL CLEAN WATER LAW.  AND SO IN TERMS OF WHO MAKES DECISIONS,

                    THE LAW IS PRETTY WELL SET, AND THIS OBVIOUSLY IS TO MAKE SOME LITTLE

                    CHANGE IN IT TO ALLOW, ON A VERY LIMITED BASIS, GREATER AUTHORITY TO LOCAL

                    GOVERNMENTS TO TRY TO PROTECT THE WETLANDS THAT ARE WITHIN THE SCOPE OF

                    THEIR AUTHORITY.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  WOULD A LOCAL GOVERNMENT BE ABLE

                    TO STOP THE TREATMENT FOR MOSQUITOES OR BLACK FLIES?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'M SORRY, JUST --

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  WOULD A TOWN BOARD BE ABLE TO

                    MAKE A DECISION WHETHER THEIR STREAMS AND WETLANDS ARE TREATED WITH

                    BTI -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE EVER HEARD OF BTI.  IN THE NORTH COUNTRY

                    I'M NOT SURE IF YOU'VE EVER EXPERIENCED BLACK FLIES OR MOSQUITOES, BUT

                    WE ACTUALLY -- I WAS A TOWN SUPERVISOR, I CAME FROM LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

                    WE HAD A BLACK FLY TREATMENT PROGRAM AND WE USED A PRODUCT CALLED

                    BTI, AND THAT WAS APPROVED BY DEC FOR MANY, MANY YEARS IN THE

                    ADIRONDACKS.  WOULD THIS GIVE AN -- GIVE A LOCAL GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY

                    TO SAY NO, WE -- IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SO, THERE'S ANOTHER PROVISION IN THIS

                    THAT I'D LIKE TO BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  I'M FAMILIAR WITH THE DECISION, I JUST

                    ASKED THE QUESTIONS.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO, NO, BECAUSE -- BECAUSE IT'S

                    RELEVANT TO YOUR QUESTION.  AND IT WOULD DEPEND UPON HOW THAT

                                         89



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PARTICULAR PEST, CALL IT, WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED.  AND THAT IS A PROVISO

                    THAT ANY SUCH LAW OR ORDINANCE, AND IN THIS CASE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A

                    LOCAL LAW THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE ADOPTED IF THIS WERE TO BE ENACTED.  IT

                    DOESN'T HAPPEN ALL BY ITSELF, IT'S NOT SELF -- IT -- IT WOULD BE NEED TO BE

                    THAT THE LOCALITY ADOPTS A FURTHER LOCAL LAW IN ORDER TO GIVE EFFECT IF THIS

                    BILL WERE TO BE ENACTED.  BUT TO GO ON, IT SAYS, PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT

                    SUCH LAW OR ORDINANCE SHALL NOT PROHIBIT PESTICIDE APPLICATIONS FOR THE

                    CONTROL OF INVASIVE SPECIES IDENTIFIED PURSUANT TO TITLE 17 OF ARTICLE 9

                    OF THIS CHAPTER, PESTS OF SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC HEALTH IMPORTANCE, NOXIOUS

                    WEEDS DESIGNATED BY THE DEPARTMENT AS INJURIOUS TO ECOSYSTEM HEALTH,

                    OR FOR THE PROTECTION OF CRITICAL NAVY -- NATIVE PLANT SPECIES.

                                 SO THE REASON I'M READING THAT SECTION IS BECAUSE THE

                    DEPARTMENT ULTIMATELY COULD MAKE A DETERMINATION WITH RESPECT TO

                    THAT PARTICULAR PEST OR INSECT WHICH IS ATTEMPTED TO BE CONTROLLED.  AND

                    DEPENDING UPON THE OUTCOME OF THAT DETERMINATION, IT MAY BE

                    DETERMINED THAT THAT PARTICULAR PESTICIDE, IN FACT, COULD BE APPLIED.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  AS CLEAR AS SWAMP WATER.

                                 ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. SIMPSON:  THANK YOU.  MR. SPEAKER, THIS IS --

                    THIS MAY BE AN AMENDED BILL, NARROWER IN SCOPE ACCORDING TO THE

                    SPONSOR, BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S A LITTLE CONFUSING.  WE'RE GONNA GO

                    BACK TO THE DEC, WE MAY NOT AGREE WITH THE DEC.  IT SEEMS TO COME

                    UP WITH ALL SORTS OF SCENARIOS THAT ARE IN QUESTION THAT ULTIMATELY WILL

                    BE DECIDED BY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE CLOSEST TO THE PEOPLE, AND I

                                         90



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CAN TELL YOU AS THE TOWN -- FORMER TOWN SUPERVISOR, WHEN I BROUGHT UP

                    BLACK FLY TREATMENT, THAT BECAME A VERY HEATED TOPIC.  YOU HAD PEOPLE

                    THAT WERE FOR IT, PEOPLE THAT WERE AGAINST IT, AND THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT

                    CAME UP WITH SCIENCE THAT SAID THIS WAS NOT GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT,

                    OTHERS SAID ACCORDING TO DEC THERE WAS NO IMPACT, AND UNFORTUNATELY,

                    THOSE DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AT A DIFFERENT LEVEL, NOT WITH THE

                    RESOURCES THAT OUR OWN STATE AGENCY, THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT

                    OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION HAS.

                                 SO IN THIS RARE MOMENT, I WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS THAT I

                    DO AGREE WITH THE EXECUTIVE IN THEIR DECISION TO VETO THIS MESSAGE AND

                    -- AND WHAT SHE SAID:  THIS BILL WOULD UNDERMINE THE INTEGRITY OF DEC'S

                    ROBUST PESTICIDE PROGRAM, ITS WETLAND PROTECTION PROGRAM, AND ITS

                    PROTECTIONS FOR FRESHWATER WETLANDS.  AND SHE GOES ON TO SAY, FURTHER,

                    THIS BILL WOULD LEAD TO CONFUSION AND THE INCONSISTENT APPLICATION OF

                    STATE LAWS LEADING TO UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES FOR PESTICIDE

                    REGULATION IN NEW YORK.  I COULDN'T HAVE ANY EXPRESSED IT ANY BETTER

                    AND, THEREFORE, I CANNOT SUPPORT THIS BILL.  I DO APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR'S

                    CONCERN FOR WATER QUALITY, BUT I THINK THIS BILL CERTAINLY LEADS TO A LOT OF

                    OTHER QUESTIONS AND UNANSWERED QUESTIONS, AND I WOULD URGE ALL MY

                    COLLEAGUES TO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 MR. MILLER.

                                 MR. MILLER:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WOULD THE

                    SPONSOR FOR A FEW QUESTIONS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  CERTAINLY.

                                         91



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. MILLER:  OKAY, I'M -- I WAS A FORMER

                    SUPERVISOR ALSO, AND I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT OF FORMER SUPERVISORS IN THIS

                    -- IN THIS ROOM HERE TODAY, AND I JUST HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU, MR.

                    BURDICK.  WHAT DEPARTMENTS WOULD YOU -- WHAT STATE DEPARTMENTS AND

                    FEDERAL DEPARTMENTS WOULD YOU BE USING TO -- TO GET THEIR EXPERTISE FOR

                    YOUR NEW CREATED DEPARTMENT IN YOUR TOWN -- TOWN GOVERNMENT TO

                    MAKE THESE DECISIONS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, THAT -- ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

                    WHAT DEPARTMENT WITHIN A MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT?

                                 MR. MILLER:  NO, WHAT STATE DEPARTMENTS AND

                    FEDERAL DEPARTMENTS WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU USE TO -- TO HAVE YOUR

                    NEWLY-CREATED TOWN DEPARTMENT ASK THE QUESTIONS TO MAKE YOUR

                    DECISIONS TO -- TO BAN THESE PESTICIDES?  WOULD YOU USE THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, WOULD YOU USE THE DEC, THE EPA?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I -- I REALLY DON'T ANTICIPATE THAT

                    THESE ISSUES WOULD UP WITH ANY KIND OF FREQUENCY.  I CHAIRED THE

                    WETLANDS CONTROL COMMISSION AT THE TOWN OF BEDFORD FOR SOME NINE

                    YEARS, AND THERE WERE FEW INSTANCES IN WHICH WE NEEDED TO CONNECT

                    WITH EITHER THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE OR THE DEC, AND THOSE

                    REALLY ONLY AROSE IN INSTANCES OF WHICH THERE WAS ANY KIND OF

                    DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE PROPERTY OWNER SEEKING A WETLANDS PERMIT

                    AND THE TOWN.  AND, FRANKLY, THEY WERE FEW AND BETWEEN, BUT WE

                    SIMPLY HAD CONTACTED THEM TO -- TO GET THEIR INTERPRETATION.  AND IN

                    FACT, BECAUSE OF THE EXEMPTION THAT WOULD BE IN THIS BILL, IT PROBABLY

                                         92



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WOULD NOT EVEN INVOLVE THE AGS -- AG DEPARTMENT WITH MUCH

                    FREQUENCY AT ALL.  AND -- AND SO I DON'T SEE THAT WE WOULD HAVE THE

                    NEED TO DO SO.  FOR THE TOWN OF BEDFORD, THE WAY THAT IT WAS HANDLED

                    IS THAT THERE'S A SEPARATE WETLANDS CONTROL COMMISSION.  IN OTHER

                    MUNICIPALITIES, THE WETLANDS LAW IS HANDLED THROUGH THEIR PLANNING

                    BOARDS.

                                 MR. MILLER:  OKAY, BUT THE PESTICIDES BEING USED,

                    THEY'RE ALL REGULATED PESTICIDES THAT ARE OKAYED BY THE DEC, THE EPA.

                    AND I GUESS THE QUESTION I HAVE, HOW -- HOW COULD A TOWN COMMITTEE

                    OR TOWN DEPARTMENT DETERMINE WHAT PESTICIDES WOULD ADVERSELY AFFECT

                    THESE WETLANDS IF THEY'RE ALREADY BEING REGULATED BY THESE STATE AND

                    FEDERAL AGENCIES?  I -- I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW FAR -- HOW FAR, YOU KNOW

                    -- ARE YOU GONNA HIRE SCIENTISTS, ARE YOU GONNA HIRE TECHNICIANS TO GO

                    OUT THERE AND MONITOR PESTICIDE LEVELS IN --  IN THESE RIVERS AND THESE

                    WETLANDS AND THEN COME BACK AND DECIDE THAT THIS CERTAIN PESTICIDE

                    YOU FEEL AND THE TOWN OF X SHOULDN'T BE THERE, BUT THE DEC SAYS IT'S

                    OKAY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE YOUR

                    QUESTION BUT -- BUT I THINK THAT IT RESTS UPON A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE

                    -- OF THIS BILL.  AND THIS BILL WOULD PROVIDE THE LOCALITY WITH THE ABILITY

                    TO PROHIBIT ALL PEST -- PESTICIDES.  AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE

                    PROPERTY OWNER CAN QUESTION THAT AND COULD ASSERT THAT IT'S BEING USED,

                    THE PESTICIDE, IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH A PARTICULARLY NOXIOUS PLANT,

                    INVASIVE PLANT OR PEST.  BUT THE MUNICIPALITY ITSELF CAN, FROM THE

                    STARTING POINT, STATE THAT NO PESTICIDES ARE TO BE APPLIED TO THE WETLANDS

                                         93



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IN QUESTION.  AND IN TERMS OF HIRING CONSULTANTS, I THINK IT'S VERY GOOD

                    PRACTICE, AND I THINK MOST LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DO THAT WHEN IT COMES TO

                    TECHNICAL ISSUES.  IN THE CASE OF THE TOWN OF BEDFORD'S WETLAND

                    CONTROL COMMISSION, FOR THE ENTIRE TIME THAT IT HAD BEEN IN EXISTENCE,

                    THAT COMMISSION, AND IT GOES BACK DECADES, THEY HAD A WETLAND

                    SCIENTIST WHO WAS A CONSULTANT TO THE TOWN OF BEDFORD IN -- IN

                    REVIEWING PERMIT APPLICATIONS.  AND I THINK IT'S VERY GOOD PRACTICE TO

                    DO SO REGARDLESS OF THIS PARTICULAR BILL, BECAUSE THEY SHOULD HAVE AN

                    IDEA OF WHAT PARTICULAR ACTIVITY IT IS THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER IS

                    PROPOSING, AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH, IF ANY, IT WOULD HAVE A SIGNIFICANT

                    ADVERSE IMPACT UPON THE WETLANDS IN QUESTION.

                                 MR. MILLER:  OKAY.  SO WHEN WE THINK OF

                    PESTICIDES, THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MOST OF OUR MINDS ARE

                    INSECTICIDES, BUT PESTICIDES COULD BE FERTILIZERS, ALSO.  SO THAT WOULD BE

                    SOMETHING YOU WOULD BE LOOKING AT WITH YOUR WETLANDS COMMISSION IN

                    YOUR TOWN, ON FERTILIZER USE.  YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT THE COMMERCIAL

                    AGRICULTURE AND WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT COMMERCIAL BUSINESS SUCH

                    AS GOLF COURSES AND FORESTRY PROJECTS.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. MILLER:  YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS -- THIS BILL IS

                    WELL-INTENDED, BUT I THINK THAT THE TOWN GOVERNMENTS REALLY NEED TO

                    LISTEN TO THE DEC AND -- AND THE E -- EPA AND, YOU NOW, OTHER

                    AGENCIES OUT THERE ON -- ON WHAT PESTICIDES ARE SAFE TO USE AND WHAT

                    PESTICIDES AREN'T SAFE TO USE.  WE'VE HAD A LOT OF THESE DEBATES OVER THE

                                         94



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LAST FEW YEARS ON VARIOUS PESTICIDES, AND THESE -- THESE TOPICS KEEP ON

                    COMING UP.  I -- BEING A FORMER TOWN SUPERVISOR, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S

                    SOMETHING THAT ALL TOWNS WILL -- WILL WANT DO OR IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT

                    WE'RE GONNA LOOK AT DOWN THE ROAD, BUT I'M GONNA VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE

                    AND I URGE ALL MY OTHER COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

                                 THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MS. GIGLIO.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  (INAUDIBLE)

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK YIELDS.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK.  SO, AFTER THE

                    COMMITTEE MEETING, I DID HAND YOU A LETTER FROM THE FARM BUREAU OF

                    NEW YORK THAT EXPRESSED THAT THEY STILL HAVE CONCERNS, EVEN THOUGH

                    THEY APPLAUD YOU FOR MODIFYING THE BILL AND TO EXCLUDE COMMERCIAL

                    AGRICULTURE.  BUT AS MY COLLEAGUE STATED BEFORE, DOES YOUR BILL OR THE

                    STATUTE DEFINE WHAT COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURE IS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION.

                    AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE THE FIRST THAT I HEARD FROM THE FARM

                    BUREAU ON THIS WAS THE MEMO OF OPPOSITION.  I CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE

                    BEEN HAPPY TO HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS WITH THE FARM BUREAU EARLIER

                    AND, IN FACT, I TRIED REACHING THEM SEVERAL MONTHS AGO BUT,

                    UNFORTUNATELY, HAD NOT HEARD BACK.  I'M SURE THAT ANY KIND OF AMBIGUITY

                                         95



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OR ANY KIND OF CONCERN COULD BE HANDLED THROUGH A CHAPTER

                    AMENDMENT.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THAT SOUNDS GREAT.  THANK YOU, I

                    APPRECIATE THAT.  AND THEN MY NEXT QUESTION FOR YOU IS DO LOCAL

                    GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO NOTIFY THE NEW YORK STATE DEC PRIOR TO ADOPTING

                    A LOCAL LAW TO RESTRICT PESTICIDES IN WETLANDS, OR CAN THEY JUST ADOPT A

                    LOCAL LAW?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THE ENABLING STATUTE DOES NOT

                    REQUIRE NOTIFICATION TO THE DEC.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  OKAY.  SO WHO CURRENTLY APPROVES ALL

                    PESTICIDES IN NEW YORK STATE, AND HOW IS THAT DONE?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SO, THAT'S REALLY NOT WITHIN THE

                    SCOPE OF THIS BILL.  AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, PESTICIDE IS A DEFINED TERM

                    AND THE REGULATION, DETERMINATION OF THE PESTICIDE IS DONE BY THE DEC.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  OKAY.  ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH FISH

                    KILLS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YES.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  OKAY.  SO WE'VE HAD MANY OF THEM ON

                    LONG ISLAND WHERE THE BLUEFISH CHASE THE BUNKER IN AND THE WATER IN

                    SHALLOW AREAS IS STARVING OF OXYGEN AND, THEREFORE, THE BUNKER DIE AND

                    THE BLUEFISH DIE BECAUSE THERE'S NO OXYGEN.  SO THIS PESTICIDE

                    RESTRICTION THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS COULD APPLY, THESE LOCAL PESTICIDES

                    ALSO DEAL WITH INVASIVE SPECIES AND OTHER MOSQUITOES AND THINGS LIKE

                    THAT THAT ARE REALLY NUISANCES IN SHALLOW AREAS, ESPECIALLY WITH THE

                    INVASIVE SPECIES.  SO A MUNICIPALITY THAT HAS NEVER HAD A FISH KILL WITH

                                         96



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    200,000 FISH WASHING UP ON THE SHORES MAY NOT KNOW THAT IF THEY

                    ADOPT THIS LOCAL LAW AND THAT THOSE PESTICIDES COULDN'T BE APPLIED FOR

                    THE INVASIVE SPECIES, THAT IT COULD STARVE THE WATER OF OXYGEN AND

                    THEREFORE CREATE A POTENTIAL FISH KILL.  SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, THE

                    DEC REGULATES WHAT PESTICIDES COULD BE USED IN THE STATE, AND THEY

                    AGREE WITH THE EPA, AND ARE ALL OF THOSE PESTICIDES THAT THE DEC AND

                    THE EPA APPROVE HIGHLY REGULATED IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'M SORRY, WHAT'S THE QUESTION?

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  IS -- CAN ANYBODY JUST GO OUT AND PUT A

                    PESTICIDE ON A WETLAND OR IN A -- ON A FARM, OR ANYWHERE, WITHOUT IT

                    BEING REGULATED BY THE NEW YORK STATE DEC WHO CONFERS WITH THE

                    EPA?  CAN ANYBODY JUST APPLY PESTICIDES IN A WETLAND WITHOUT THAT

                    PESTICIDE BEING REGULATED BY THE NEW YORK STATE DEC?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THERE DEFINITELY IS REGULATION ON

                    PART OF THE DEC IN TERMS OF LICENSING, APPLICATORS TO DO IT, AND IN ORDER

                    TO ENSURE THAT THE LICENSE -- THE LICENSEE, IN FACT, IS APPLYING IT PROPERLY

                    AND ONLY IS APPLYING APPROVED PESTICIDES, IF THAT'S YOUR QUESTION.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  YES, IT IS.  AND DOES -- IS IT A

                    REQUIREMENT THAT A LOCALITY HAVE A SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH DONE, OR TAKE THAT

                    INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN BANNING PESTICIDES IN WETLANDS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  IT'S NOT.  OKAY.  SO IT'S STRICTLY UP TO

                    THE MUNICIPALITY, WHICH COULD JUST NOT BE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT

                    ACTUALLY BENEFITS THE ENVIRONMENT AS A WHOLE WHERE THESE PESTICIDES

                    ARE STRICTLY ENFORCED.

                                         97



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  SO AGRICULTURE, I'M SURROUNDED BY

                    AGRICULTURE ON LONG ISLAND.  WE HAVE THE SOUND, WE HAVE THE BAY.

                    WE HAVE FARMERS THAT PAY A LOT OF MONEY FOR THESE PESTICIDES, AND THEY

                    CAN ONLY USE THEM WHEN THEY ASK THE DEC, HEY, CAN YOU COME TAKE A

                    LOOK AT THIS SO I CAN USE THIS PESTICIDE BECAUSE I'M HAVING THIS

                    PROBLEM, AND THEN THE DEC GIVES THEM A PERMIT TO ACTUALLY APPLY THE

                    PESTICIDE.

                                 SO FOR THE TOWNS TO BE ABLE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE

                    DON'T CARE ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY THE STATE HAS SPENT WITH THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION, HOW MUCH -- HOW MANY

                    HOURS THEY'VE SPENT, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH THE

                    ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, THE FEDERAL AGENCY THAT OVERSEES

                    PESTICIDE USE, YOU KNOW, THAT WE DON'T CARE.  AND, YOU KNOW WHAT?

                    LOCAL GOVERNMENTS CAN JUST ADOPT A LAW RESTRICTING A PESTICIDE THAT HAS

                    BEEN EVALUATED AND OVER-EVALUATED BY SCIENTISTS AND EXPERTS IN THE

                    INDUSTRY.  AND WHERE I BELIEVE IN LOCAL CONTROL AND I BELIEVE THE

                    IMPORTANCE OF IT, UNLESS YOU HAVE THE STAFFING THAT THE STATE HAS TO

                    REGULATE AND PERMIT THESE PESTICIDES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE SAFE

                    AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- IN ONE OF THESE (INAUDIBLE) IT'S THAT THE PESTICIDE

                    DOES -- DOES NOT POSE A REASONABLE CERTAINTY OF HARM.  AND THESE ARE ALL

                    QUESTIONS THAT OUR GREAT NEW YORK STATE DEC AGENCIES LOOK AT IN

                                         98



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    EVALUATING PUBLIC HEALTH.

                                 AND SO FOR THOSE REASONS I WILL BE VOTING IN THE

                    NEGATIVE, BUT I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH MY COLLEAGUE WITH A

                    CHAPTER AMENDMENT TO BETTER DESCRIBE WHAT COMMERCIAL AGRICULTURE IS,

                    AND THEN ALSO TO HAVE SOME SORT OF RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE LOCAL

                    GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD ADOPT THIS AND THE DEC TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY

                    ARE NOT DISRUPTING AN ECOSYSTEM.

                                 THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  THANK YOU -- THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  OF COURSE, THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK YIELDS.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK.  CAN

                    YOU GIVE ME A DEFINITION OF WHAT PUBLIC WATER WOULD BE?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'M SORRY, A DEFINITION OF?

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  OF WHAT PUBLIC WATER WOULD

                    BE IN THIS BILL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, IN -- IN THE BILL IT IDENTIFIES

                    THE -- THOSE WATERWAYS THAT WOULD BE COVERED BY THIS, AND I CAN READ

                    THAT TO YOU AGAIN, AND THAT IS THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL APPLY

                    ONLY TO THOSE WETLANDS WHICH ARE HYDROLOGICALLY CONNECTED TO ANY

                                         99



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    RESERVOIR, RESERVOIR SKIM, CLASS A WATERWAY, OR OTHER SOURCE OF PUBLIC

                    WATER SUPPLY.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO -- SO I GUESS MY QUESTION

                    IS, WHAT IS THE OTHER SOURCE OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  WHAT IS THE OTHER SOURCE OF

                    PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WHAT IS THE SOURCE?

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  YEAH.  YOU SAID OR ANOTHER

                    SOURCE OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY.  WHAT -- WHAT WOULD THAT BE?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THERE COULD BE MULTIPLE SOURCES, IT

                    COULD BE GROUNDWATER, IT COULD BE A STREAM OR A RIVER THAT IS FLOWING

                    INTO A RESERVOIR.  THERE COULD BE MULTIPLE SOURCES.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  OKAY.  WOULD THAT ALSO BE

                    CONSIDERED WATER THAT WOULD GO INTO A WELL IN A -- IN A HOME PROPERTY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THAT WOULD NOT BE A PUBLIC WATER

                    SUPPLY.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO DRINKING WATER OUT OF A

                    WELL IS NOT CONSIDERED PUBLIC WATER, THEN?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  DRINKING OUT OF A WELL IS -- UNLESS

                    IT'S A WELL THAT'S SERVING, SAY, A WHOLE CONDOMINIUM ASSOCIATION IN

                    WHICH -- AND, BY THE WAY, PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY IS DEFINED BY THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  OKAY.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  BECAUSE IT'S REGULATED BY THE

                                         100



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, WHICH GOES BACK TO THE QUESTIONS OF STANDARDS

                    THAT THE DOH APPLIES TO WATER QUALITY.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND YOU HAD SAID EARLIER IN

                    THE DEBATE THAT YOU HAD REACHED OUT TO THE FARM BUREAU.  WHO DID YOU

                    REACH OUT TO?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YOU KNOW, I -- I DON'T HAVE THAT IN

                    FRONT OF ME, BUT I BELIEVE IT WAS THEIR LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND YOU DID THAT VIA PHONE

                    CALL, VIA E-MAIL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  BY A PHONE CALL.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  BY PHONE CALL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YES, SIR.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I DIDN'T HEAR BACK.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I DID NOT HEAR BACK, I DID NOT GET A

                    RETURN PHONE CALL.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO YOU CALLED THE FARM

                    BUREAU AND YOU HAD NO ONE TALK BACK TO YOU ABOUT IT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I LEFT A MESSAGE AND DID NOT HEAR

                    BACK.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND YOU SAID SEVERAL TIMES,

                    HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU DO THAT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO, I THINK I SAID THAT I CALLED

                    EARLIER, A FEW MONTHS AGO.

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                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  YEAH, I THINK YOU SAID YOU'VE

                    REACHED OUT SEVERAL TIMES TO THEM AND NO ONE HAD GOTTEN BACK TO YOU.

                    WE COULD CHECK -- WE COULD -- WELL, THAT DOESN'T MATTER.  SO I JUST WANT

                    TO KNOW, BECAUSE I FIND IT HARD BEING A FARMER, BEING A FARM BUREAU

                    MEMBER, WHY THEY WOULD NOT REACH OUT TO YOU OR GET BACK TO YOU,

                    ESPECIALLY WITH A BILL LIKE THIS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I -- I AGREE WITH YOU.  IT BEWILDERS

                    ME, TOO.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  OKAY.  SO ANOTHER QUESTION,

                    BACK -- MY -- MY PARTNER BEHIND ME HAD TALKED ABOUT COMMERCIAL AG.

                    CAN YOU TELL ME AGAIN WHAT YOU CONSIDER COMMERCIAL AG?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I WOULD LOOK, ACTUALLY, AS A POINT OF

                    REFERENCE, TO WHAT THE AGS AND MARKET LAW PROVIDES FOR THAT.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO -- SO THIS BILL -- THIS

                    WORDING IN YOUR BILL, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS, THEN?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I JUST GAVE YOU A REPLY AS TO WHAT I

                    WOULD LOOK TO AND WHAT I THINK DEC OR OTHERS REASONABLY WOULD LOOK

                    TO.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  WELL, AS A FARMER AND

                    KNOWING MANY FARMERS, COMMERCIAL FARMERS, FARMERS THAT JUST GROW

                    FOR THEMSELVES, WHICH IS REALLY CONSIDERED A NONCOMMERCIAL FARMER, A

                    COMMERCIAL FARMER IS SOMEONE WHO GROWS PRODUCE, GROWS SOME KIND

                    OF CROP NOT FOR THEIR OWN SELVES BUT FOR SOMEONE ELSE OR FOR SALE OR FOR

                    A CANNING COMPANY.  THAT'S WHAT A COMMERCIAL FARMER IS.  SO

                    HOPEFULLY THAT WILL CLARIFY THAT A LITTLE BIT FOR YOU.

                                         102



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 PESTICIDES.  I HAVE A COMMERCIAL PESTICIDES LICENSE, I

                    HAVE AN AGRICULTURAL PESTICIDE LICENSE.  DO YOU KNOW WHAT A PESTICIDE

                    LABEL LOOKS LIKE ON A PESTICIDE CONTAINER?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'VE SEEN THEM, YES.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND WHAT DO THEY SAY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, IT'LL GIVE THE CHEMICAL

                    COMPOSITION OF THE PESTICIDE, IT'LL HAVE CERTAIN WARNINGS ON THEM, I

                    THINK HAVE CERTAIN DESCRIPTIONS AS TO HOW THEY MAY BE APPLIED AND

                    HOW THEY CAN'T BE APPLIED.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO WHAT -- WHAT'S THE NUMBER

                    ONE WARNING ON A PESTICIDE LABEL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE

                    NUMBER ONE WARNING IS ON A PESTICIDE LABEL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  NO.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  OKAY.  IT'S ABOUT HARM TO AN

                    INDIVIDUAL, TO THE APPLICATOR, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW.  AND IN THAT WHOLE

                    LABEL, MR. BURDICK, IT TELLS YOU WHERE YOU CAN SPRAY, AROUND WHAT

                    WATER SOURCES, AND THE DEFINITION OF THE CHEMICAL THAT YOU'RE USING,

                    WHETHER IT WILL HARM WATER FOWL, WHETHER IT WILL HARM FISH.  SO RIGHT

                    THERE ALONE REALLY, REALLY PUTS A -- A DAMPER -- OR IT GIVES US A DIRECT

                    DEFINITION OF WHERE WE CAN SPRAY AND WHERE WE CANNOT SPRAY.  AND

                    THIS IS DONE PRIMARILY FROM THE EPA TO START WITH AND THEN DEC

                    FOLLOWING UP.  AS A FARMER, I KNOW AND I TRUST THAT THE EPA FROM THE

                    FEDERAL SIDE, OUR DEC OFFICES -- I'LL WAIT 'TIL YOU'RE DONE TALKING.  I -- I

                                         103



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DON'T WANT YOU TO MISS ANYTHING.  AND I KNOW THAT WORKING WITH OUR

                    DEC AGENTS AND THE PEOPLE THAT WE WORK WITH, THEY KNOW EXACTLY

                    WHAT THESE CHEMICALS ARE GOING TO DO OR NOT DO.  AND WE HAVE SOME

                    REALLY, REALLY DEFINED DEFINITIONS OF WHAT WE CAN SPRAY AND HOW WE CAN

                    SPRAY.  MY CONCERN AS A FORMER TOWN SUPERVISOR, AS A FORMER TOWN

                    BOARD MEMBER, AS A FORMER COUNTY LEGISLATOR IS WE ALL COME AND GO

                    JUST LIKE IN THIS -- IN THIS HOUSE.  WE -- YOU AND I ARE GONNA COME AND

                    GO WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.  AND IF WE'RE GONNA GIVE THIS MUCH POWER

                    TO A LOCAL TOWN BOARD, WHO'S GONNA SET THOSE GUIDELINES AND WHO'S

                    GONNA KEEP THOSE GUIDELINES IN PLACE FOR THE NEXT TOWN BOARD?  HOW

                    DOES THAT WORK?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, YOU KNOW, I -- I DO HAVE, AS I

                    STATED EARLIER, A PRETTY HIGH REGARD FOR THE COMPETENCY OF LOCAL

                    GOVERNMENT AND, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT YOU'RE NOT CASTING

                    ASPERSIONS ON THEM BECAUSE I THINK THAT THEY CAN HANDLE THESE THINGS

                    PRETTY WELL.  THERE'S SOME PRETTY COMPLEX MATTERS THAT WETLANDS LAWS

                    DEAL WITH FOR OVER 60 YEARS, AND SO I -- I DO THINK THAT THEY'LL HAVE THE

                    WHEREWITHAL TO FIGURE THIS ONE OUT.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND IF THEY DO NOT HAVE THE

                    WHEREWITHAL, WHERE WOULD THEY REACH OUT TO?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, I -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU --

                    YOU SAID YOU WERE A TOWN SUPERVISOR YOURSELF AS WELL?

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  FOR NINE YEARS, YES, SIR.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WELL, I -- YOU KNOW, I LOOKED TO, AS

                    I MENTIONED BEFORE, IF THERE'S A MATTER THAT I'M NOT COMPLETELY

                                         104



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CONVERSANT WITH, THEN I'M GONNA LOOK TO MY COUNSEL, I'M GONNA LOOK TO

                    COMPETENT CONSULTANTS WHO CAN HELP US THROUGH IT.  AND I'M SURE YOU

                    DID THE SAME SORT OF THING IN -- IN -- YOU KNOW, DURING YOUR TENURE AS

                    SUPERVISOR.  AND I HAVE EVERY CONFIDENCE THAT LOCALITIES WOULD DO

                    LIKEWISE.  AND I -- I WOULD ALSO ADD THAT IN THE DECADES THAT THE

                    WETLANDS LAWS HAVE BEEN IN PLACE, THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW INSTANCES IN

                    WHICH THERE'S SOME KIND OF OUTCRY AS TO THEM BEING FAIRLY APPLIED AND,

                    IN FACT, NOT DOING A GOOD JOB IN PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE

                    WELFARE OF THE COMMUNITY IN GENERAL.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  YEAH, I AGREE.  SEEING YOU --

                    THIS IS THE BILL THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT UP AGAIN, WE TALKED ABOUT

                    COMMERCIAL AG EARLIER.  HOW MANY FARMERS HAVE YOU TALKED TO ABOUT

                    THIS BILL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I HAVE NOT.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  HOW MANY TOWN BOARDS HAVE

                    YOU TALKED TO ABOUT THIS BILL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SEVERAL IN MY -- IN MY MUNICIPAL --

                    I MEAN, IN MY ASSEMBLY DISTRICT.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AND WHERE IS YOUR ASSEMBLY

                    DISTRICT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT'S IN WESTCHESTER COUNTY,

                    NORTHERN WESTCHESTER, WHICH HAS SOME SEMI-RURAL AREAS.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SEMI-RURAL.  SO WHAT

                    PERCENTAGE OF THE SEMI-RURAL AREAS ARE -- ARE ACTUALLY FARMING

                    COMMUNITIES, IS IT 5 PERCENT, 10 PERCENT?

                                         105



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THE

                    PERCENTAGE, BUT WE DO HAVE FARMS IN THE 93RD ASSEMBLY DISTRICT IN

                    NORTH SALEM AND LEWISBOROUGH AND POUND RIDGE, IN -- IN BEDFORD.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AWESOME.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I THINK ALSO IN NEWCASTLE.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO AS YOU GO FURTHER WEST,

                    ESPECIALLY UP IN THE SYRACUSE, ROCHESTER, BUFFALO AREA, MUCH MORE

                    PREDOMINANTLY AG WHETHER IT'S FRUIT, WHETHER IT'S DAIRY, WHETHER IT'S

                    POTATOES, ONIONS, FIELD CROPS.  DID YOU TALK TO ANY ONE OF THOSE FARMS

                    OR COMMUNITIES ABOUT THIS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  WESTERN NEW YORK?  NO, I HAVE

                    NOT.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  SO IT'S BASICALLY JUST AROUND

                    YOUR AREA?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  ALL RIGHT.  I APPRECIATE YOU

                    ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS, MR. BURDICK.  I DO THINK THAT THERE'S FAR MORE

                    QUESTIONS THAT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED OR TALKED ABOUT PRIOR TO BRINGING

                    THIS TO A -- TO A LAW, BUT I DO THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YOU ARE VERY WELCOME, SIR.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. MANKTELOW:  AGAIN, AS WE GET TOWARDS THE

                    END OF SESSION, SIR, WE BRING MANY, MANY BILLS FORWARD.  AND MUCH

                                         106



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LIKE BIG GOVERNMENT, WE THINK WE CAN PUT THINGS OUT THERE THAT WILL

                    HELP EVERYONE ACROSS AN AREA.  AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE

                    SPONSOR PROMOTING THIS IN HIS DISTRICT, MAYBE IN HIS SMALL COMMUNITY

                    WHERE HE LIVES.  BUT WHEN WE START PROMOTING THIS STATEWIDE, AGAIN,

                    WITHOUT BRINGING THOSE PLAYERS TO THE TABLE, WITHOUT BRINGING DEC --

                    AND I WILL -- I WILL DO A FAVOR FOR THE SPONSOR, I WILL FOLLOW UP WITH THE

                    FARM BUREAU TO FIND OUT WHY THEY DID NOT GET BACK TO HIM BECAUSE AS A

                    FARM BUREAU MEMBER, THAT BOTHERS ME, SIR.  AS A FARMER, THAT BOTHERS

                    ME.  WE PAY DUES, WE EXPECT THEM TO ADVOCATE FOR US, AND I BELIEVE

                    THEY WOULD, SO I'LL FIND THAT ANSWER.

                                 BUT AGAIN, WE'RE PUTTING THINGS IN PLACE THAT A LOT OF

                    PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT REALLY GOES ON IN LIFE.  NOBODY REALLY

                    KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU APPLY A PESTICIDE.  I'M VERY FORTUNATE

                    TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT FOR 30-PLUS YEARS.  I KNOW THE INS AND

                    OUTS.  AM I PERFECT?  ABSOLUTELY NOT.  HAVE I EVER MADE A MISTAKE?

                    ABSOLUTELY.  BUT WE KNOW WHERE THE GUIDELINES ARE, WE KNOW WHERE TO

                    TALK, WHERE TO GET THE INFORMATION FROM, AND NOW WE'RE GONNA THROW

                    TOWN BOARD MEMBERS, VILLAGE TRUSTEES, COUNTYWIDE, WHEN WE ALREADY

                    HAVE THE EXPERTS IN PLACE, TELLING US AS AG PRODUCERS WHAT WE CAN,

                    WHERE WE CAN AND HOW WE CAN SPRAY OUR MATERIALS.  AND I CAN TELL THE

                    SPONSOR AND I CAN TELL ALL OF YOU HERE THAT THERE'S NO GREATER ADVOCATE

                    FOR THE PUBLIC SAFETY OF OUR WATER THAN FARMERS OR AG PRODUCERS --

                    EXCUSE ME, AG PRODUCERS, IN NEW YORK STATE.  WE LOVE WHAT WE HAVE,

                    WE LOVE WHERE WE ARE, AND WE'RE GOING TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT.

                    THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR ALL OF US.

                                         107



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 SO AGAIN, AS A FEW OF MY OTHER COLLEAGUES HAVE STATED,

                    I UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS OF THE BILL, I UNDERSTAND WHERE THE -- WHERE

                    THE SPONSOR WANTS TO GO WITH THIS.  I DON'T AGREE WITHOUT SOME KIND OF

                    TRAINING PLAN, WITHOUT A SUCCESSION PLAN WHEN TOWN BOARDS ROLL OVER

                    AND MOVE OUT AND SOMEONE ELSE MOVES IN.  HOW ARE WE GOING TO MAKE

                    SURE THOSE ISSUES STAY IN THE FOREFRONT AND ALSO STAY IN PLACE?  AS A

                    FARMER, WE NEED THAT CONSISTENCY.  SO WE KNOW FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS,

                    15 YEARS, 20 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'RE NOT GOING TO

                    CHANGE, OR IF A TOWN BOARD CHANGES, THREE PEOPLE ON THE BOARD, OH, BY

                    THE WAY, WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS.  BECAUSE WE'RE GONNA PUT OUR

                    FARMERS OUT OF BUSINESS.  AND AGAIN, WE'RE GONNA DO A DISRESPECT TO OUR

                    FARMERS, TO OUR AG COMMUNITY, AND I -- I JUST THINK WITHOUT HAVING

                    THEM -- WITHOUT HAVING THOSE THINGS IN PLACE, WE REALLY NEED TO DO THAT

                    FIRST, AGAIN, PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE, BUT MORE SO, NOT TALKING

                    TO THE HORSE BEFORE THE CART WAS PUT ON.

                                 SO AGAIN, I WILL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE.  I COMMEND

                    THE SPONSOR FOR WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO HERE, BUT THERE ARE SOME

                    QUESTIONS.  SO THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING ME TO SPEAK.

                    THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK, FOR TAKING THE TIME TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS,

                    MUCH APPRECIATED.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  WOULD THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                         108



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BURDICK:  CERTAINLY WILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BURDICK YIELDS,

                    SIR.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK, AND

                    THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING ALL THESE QUESTIONS.  I ALSO APPRECIATE YOUR

                    EFFORTS TO NARROW THE SCOPE OF THIS BILL IN THE PAST AND THANK YOU ON

                    BOTH COUNTS.  I SEE THAT THIS BILL APPLIES TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.  DOES

                    LOCAL GOVERNMENT INCLUDE THE CITY OF NEW YORK?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT WOULD APPLY, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT

                    ANY OF THE BOROUGHS -- WELL, MAYBE STATEN ISLAND, BUT I DON'T KNOW

                    WHETHER THERE EXISTS ANY LOCAL FRESHWATER WETLANDS LAWS WITHIN THE

                    CITY OF NEW YORK.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND I SEE THAT IT -- IT APPLIES

                    SPECIFICALLY -- AND YOU POINTED OUT IT WAS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT RESERVOIRS,

                    RESERVOIR STEM, CLASS A WATERWAYS, CORRECT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO AM I CORRECT, THEN, THAT IT WOULD

                    APPLY TO THE NEW YORK CITY WATERSHED THAT FEEDS ALL OF THEIR 19

                    RESERVOIRS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT CERTAINLY WOULD, YEAH.  I MEAN --

                    AND, IN FACT, IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS WE HAVE NEW YORK CITY WATER

                    RESERVOIRS THAT COULD WELL BE AFFECTED AND PROTECTED BY THIS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND SO IN OTHER WORDS, THIS

                    STATUTORY PROVISION WOULD ALLOW THE CITY OF NEW YORK TO REGULATE

                    PESTICIDE APPLICATIONS IN WETLANDS EXTENDING UP 125,000 -- 125 MILES

                                         109



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND OVER 2,000 SQUARE MILES OF LAND; IS THAT CORRECT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT REALLY DOES DEPEND UPON WHETHER

                    OR NOT THERE'S A HYDROLOGICAL CONNECTION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  RIGHT, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT THE

                    SIZE OF THEIR WATER SUPPLY COVERS 2,000 SQUARE MILES AND GOES 125

                    MILES UP TO THE WEST AND NORTH OF NEW YORK CITY, AND FROM WHAT YOU

                    TOLD ME, NEW YORK CITY BY LOCAL LAW COULD THEN REGULATE ALL THAT LAND

                    AS IT RELATES TO PESTICIDE APPLICATIONS, CORRECT?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  YOU HAVE TO START -- WHAT THIS BILL

                    PROVIDES IS FOR THOSE MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE A FRESHWATER WETLANDS

                    LAW, THEN IT WOULD GIVE THEM THE AUTHORITY TO ADOPT A FURTHER LOCAL LAW,

                    AUGMENTING IT BASED ON THE STATUTORY AUTHORITY THAT THIS BILL WOULD

                    CONFER.  AND SO I DO THINK THAT WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS WELL BEYOND

                    THE SCOPE OF WHAT THIS WOULD PROVIDE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I WOULD HOPE SO, AND PERHAPS IF WE

                    GET A CHANCE TO CLARIFY THAT IN THE FUTURE WE CAN DO SO.  THANK YOU, MR.

                    BURDICK.

                                 SIR, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  ON THE BILL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THE CONCERN THAT I HAVE IS THAT

                    WHEN YOU FIRST READ THIS, IT SAYS A LOCAL GOVERNMENT THAT'S IMPLEMENTED

                    A FRESHWATER WETLANDS PROTECTION LAW IN ACCORDANCE WITH A LOCAL LAW

                    CAN REGULATE ALL THE WATERSHED WITHIN THE AREA OF ITS RESERVOIR.  AND AS

                    MY COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT, THIS PROVISION WOULD INCLUDE THE CITY OF

                    NEW YORK.  THE CITY OF NEW YORK HAS THE LARGEST SYSTEM OF WATERSHED

                                         110



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    COLLECTION IN THE WORLD THAT EXTENDS FOR 125 MILES OUTSIDE OF NEW

                    YORK CITY, IT CROSSES SEVERAL COUNTIES AND IT ENCOMPASSES OVER 2,000

                    SQUARE MILES.  SO WHILE ON THE FACE THIS LOOKS LIKE IT'S PRETTY NARROWLY

                    CRAFTED, WHEN YOU REALIZE IT APPLIES TO ALLOWING THE CITY OF NEW YORK

                    TO GOVERN WETLAND PESTICIDE -- OR PESTICIDE USE ANYWHERE IN 2,000

                    SQUARE MILES OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, IT'S REALLY QUITE AN

                    EXPANSIVE LAW.  AND FOR THOSE REASONS AND THE REASONS MENTIONED BY

                    MY COLLEAGUE, I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTING IT.  I WOULD, HOWEVER, COMMEND

                    THE SPONSOR WHO IS WORKING ON NARROWING THIS BILL TO ADDRESS HIS

                    SPECIFIC CONCERNS.  I APPRECIATE HIS WILLINGNESS TO DO THAT AND I HOPE HE

                    CONTINUES THAT PROCESS AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

                                 THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MR. TAGUE.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WOULD THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I CERTAINLY WILL, THANK YOU.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  THANK YOU, MR. BURDICK, APPRECIATE

                    IT.  JUST A COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS.  IT SAYS -- THE BILL'S TITLE, "CERTAIN

                    LOCAL FRESHWATER WETLANDS."  CAN YOU LAY OUT WHAT EXACTLY THAT

                    DEFINITION IS?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT'S ACTUALLY SET OUT IN THE

                    ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW.  THIS IS NOT CREATING A NEW

                    DEFINITION OF FRESHWATER WETLANDS, IT'S ALREADY WITHIN THE

                    ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW.  IT'S ACTUALLY A PRETTY LONG SECTION,

                    BUT IT'S ALREADY DEFINED.

                                         111



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. TAGUE:  NOW, DOES THIS ONLY ATTEST TO PROPERTY

                    THAT IS OWNED BY A LOCALITY, OR IS THIS ALSO CONSIDERED WITH PRIVATE

                    PROPERTY AS WELL?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT WOULD INCLUDE PRIVATE PROPERTY.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  SO THIS MEANS THAT A GOLF COURSE MAY

                    BE AFFECTED BY THIS LAW?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  A MUNICIPAL PARK MAY BE AFFECTED BY

                    THIS LAW?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  IT -- IT MAY BE.  A LOT OF

                    MUNICIPALITIES IN ADOPTING A LOCAL LAW WILL EXEMPT THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

                    IN THE TOWN OF BEDFORD WHEN I WAS SUPERVISOR, WE DID NOT DO THAT, BUT

                    IT COULD.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  WELL, MY -- OUR COLLEAGUE, MR.

                    GOODELL, BROUGHT UP A VERY GOOD POINT, AND I HAVE A LOT OF RESERVOIRS IN

                    MY DISTRICT AND RIGHT EVEN IN HOME COUNTY WHICH PROVIDES WATER TO THE

                    NEW YORK CITY -- TO NEW YORK CITY THROUGH THE NEW YORK CITY

                    WATERSHED.  SO AM I CORRECT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT

                    WHERE THESE RESERVOIRS ARE WOULD NOW HAVE CONTROL OVER PESTICIDES

                    THAT ARE USED NEAR THOSE RESERVOIRS, OR DOES THE NEW YORK CITY

                    COUNCIL, OR NEW YORK CITY WATERSHED HAVE THE AUTHORITY?

                                 MR. BURDICK:  SO, LET'S GO BACK TO THE

                    FUNDAMENTALS ON THIS.  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT A LOCALITY IS PERMITTED

                    TO REGULATE.  WHAT THEY'RE PERMITTED TO REGULATE ARE NOT THE RESERVOIRS

                    THEMSELVES, BUT FRESHWATER WETLANDS.  AND WHAT THIS BILL IS DOING IS IT'S

                                         112



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NARROWING IT FURTHER TO STATE THAT IT ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WITH A

                    HYDROLOGICAL CONNECTION TO A PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  BUT YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT YOU

                    COULD MAKE A CONNECTION FROM JUST ABOUT ANY WETLAND TO SOME -- SOME

                    SORT OF WATERWAY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU LIVE IN RURAL UPSTATE NEW YORK

                    WHERE I'M FROM.  SEE, THIS AGAIN, TO ME, SIR, IS WHERE WE MAKE

                    LEGISLATION SITE-SPECIFIC TO A CERTAIN AREA AND WE FORGET THAT THERE ARE

                    18 OTHER MILLION PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE STATE IN DIFFERENT REGIONS THAT

                    ARE -- THAT ARE UNIQUE.  AND WHEN WE PUT THESE LAWS TOGETHER,

                    SOMETIMES WE DON'T THINK OF HOW IT'S GONNA AFFECT OTHER AREAS WITHIN

                    THE STATE OF NEW YORK.  MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT'S WHY WE HAVE AN

                    EPA, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A DEC, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A NEW YORK

                    WATERSHED, IS FOR THESE FOLKS TO MONITOR AND MAKE SURE THAT DIFFERENT

                    COMMUNITIES, DIFFERENT AREAS, BUSINESSES ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH

                    FEDERAL AND STATE LAW.  I DON'T REALLY FEEL THAT IT'S THE JOB OF TOWN

                    GOVERNMENT TO MAKE THOSE TYPES OF LAWS AND TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE

                    ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THOSE LAWS.  THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS AT

                    DEC, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS AT DEP, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS

                    AT THE EPA.  AND I THINK THAT IT'S BEST LEFT IN THEIR HANDS TO MAKE THOSE

                    DECISIONS, NOT TOWN GOVERNMENT.

                                 AGAIN, AS I JUST SAID, TOWN GOVERNMENT ACROSS THE

                    STATE OF NEW YORK IS VERY UNIQUE.  YOU PROBABLY HAVE MORE PEOPLE

                    WHERE YOU SERVED AS TOWN SUPERVISOR IN YOUR TOWN THAN I HAVE IN MY

                    ENTIRE HOME COUNTY.  YOUR -- THE PEOPLE THAT SIT ON THAT BOARD IN YOUR

                    TOWN AND THE TOWN SUPERVISOR IS PROBABLY A FULL-TIME JOB.  NOT IN MY

                                         113



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TOWN, IT'S A PART-TIME JOB.  THEY GET $2,000 A YEAR TO DO THE JOB.  THE

                    ONLY FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES WE HAVE IS THE TOWN CLERK -- A TOWN CLERK AND

                    A HIGHWAY SUPERINTENDENT.  SO I JUST -- IT BURNS ME.  AND, AGAIN, AS --

                    AS MR. GOODELL SAID, I -- I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING DO HERE AND I

                    -- AND I GET IT.  BUT WHEN WE MAKE THESE LAWS THAT COVER THE WHOLE

                    STATE OF NEW YORK, SOMETIMES WE JUST PLAIN DON'T THINK OF HOW OTHER

                    FOLKS LIVE OR WHAT THE PRIORITIES ARE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.  THIS IS ALSO

                    A BIG HIT TO AGRICULTURE, OKAY, AS MY FRIEND THAT SITS BEFORE ME HERE HAD

                    SPOKE ABOUT.

                                 SO I GUESS THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I'M AT WITH THIS.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  YOU'RE WELCOME.  I'M GOOD; IF YOU'RE

                    GOOD, I'M GOOD.  I'M VOTING NO, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 MR. BURDICK:  I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THERE WOULD

                    BE A QUESTION THERE.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  JUST SO YOU KNOW, I WILL BE VOTING

                    NO --

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 -- THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  I THINK EVERYONE'S

                    GOOD.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 90TH

                                         114



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  A PARTY VOTE HAS BEEN

                    REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE WILL BE GENERALLY OPPOSING THIS LEGISLATION FOR THE REASONS

                    THAT HAVE BEEN STATED.  THOSE WHO WISH TO SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY

                    VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MS. SOLAGES.

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE

                    VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THOSE WHO WISH TO VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE CAN

                    DO SO NOW.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. BURDICK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. BURDICK:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I WISH TO

                    THANK THE SPEAKER FOR ALLOWING THIS BILL TO COME TO THE FLOOR, AND I

                    WISH TO THANK PROGRAM AND COUNSEL, PARTICULARLY MICHELLE MILOT, HER

                    -- HER SIGNIFICANT WORK IN HELPING US -- IN PUTTING THIS NEW BILL

                    TOGETHER.

                                 YOU KNOW, I START FROM THE STANDPOINT OF HAVING COME

                    OUT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ARE UNIQUELY SITUATED

                    TO DEAL WITH LOCAL PROBLEMS.  AND I FEEL THAT THEY CAN HANDLE COMPLEX

                    MATTERS, I HAVE A HIGH REGARD FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT.  AND I ALSO

                                         115



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    RECOGNIZE THAT THE DEC, WHILE DOING A VERY GOOD JOB TO THE EXTENT THEY

                    CAN, ARE HIGHLY LIMITED IN THEIR RESOURCES.  AND THAT, I THINK, IS ONE OF

                    THE REASONS WHY THERE HAS BEEN FOR DECADES NOW, THE REGULATORY

                    FRAMEWORK WHICH DID DELEGATE TO LOCALITIES THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ABLE

                    TO REGULATE LOCAL WETLANDS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, AND FOR

                    OTHER BENEFITS WHICH WETLANDS PROVIDE.

                                 AND SO THIS SIMPLY IS TO PROVIDE AND TO HAVE RESPECT

                    FOR HOME RULE, WHICH IS A VERY STRONG TRADITION ROOTED IN THIS STATE.

                    AND I BELIEVE THAT THIS COULD PROVIDE A GREAT BENEFIT TO THE

                    PRESERVATION OF OUR WETLANDS AND TO ENSURING THAT FUTURE GENERATIONS --

                    IN FACT, EARLIER THAN THAT, I WOULD ASSUME -- ARE NOT BESET WITH THE

                    PROBLEM OF HAVING TO TAKE OUT HARMFUL CHEMICALS THAT FIND THEIR WAY

                    INTO OUR DRINKING WATER.

                                 SO I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE AND URGE MY COLLEAGUES TO

                    DO LIKEWISE.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MR. BURDICK IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MS. WALSH TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  SO I, TOO,

                    CAME UP THROUGH LOCAL GOVERNMENT, AND I WOULD SAY THAT IN THE TOWN

                    THAT I SAT ON THAT TOWN BOARD HAD -- I THINK WE HAD IN OUR TOWN ABOUT, I

                    DON'T KNOW, 9,000 RESIDENTS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.  SO CONSIDER THE

                    FACT THAT TOWN TO TOWN THROUGHOUT OUR STATE, THERE'S A GREAT, GREAT

                    VARIETY.  THERE'S A VARIETY IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCE AND

                    KNOWLEDGE AND HOURS TO GO TO THE JOB.  SO I -- I DON'T CAST ANY

                                         116



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ASPERSIONS AT TOWN BOARD MEMBERS, I WAS ONE, AND WE ALL CERTAINLY DO

                    OUR BEST, BUT -- BUT THERE'S A REAL VARIETY.

                                 I JUST WANTED TO SPEAK VERY BRIEFLY ABOUT ARTICLE 33.

                    ARTICLE 24 OF THE STATE -- OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW

                    PROVIDES FOR A DELEGATORY SCHEME TO ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO ENACT

                    LOCAL FRESHWATER REG -- WETLANDS REGULATIONS AND SEEK DELEGATION OF

                    PERMITTING AUTHORITY FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL

                    CONSERVATION.  THIS SCHEME IS FOR THE REGULATION OF FRESH -- FRESHWATER

                    WETLANDS AND NOT FOR THE REGULATION OF PESTICIDES.  ARTICLE 33 IS

                    PREEMPTIVE OF DELEGATION AND DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE LOCAL REGULATION.  I

                    THINK THAT RATHER THAN THIS BILL, I WOULD PREFER TO PROVIDE BETTER

                    RESOURCES TO DEC BECAUSE I THINK THAT THAT WILL ALLOW FOR MORE

                    CONSISTENT RESULTS AS WE MOVE ACROSS THE STATE, TOWN TO TOWN, COUNTY TO

                    COUNTY, RATHER THAN HAVING IT DONE PIECEMEAL.

                                 SO FOR THAT -- FOR THOSE REASONS I WILL BE VOTING IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MS. WALSH IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 12, RULES REPORT NO. 222, ON A MOTION -- THE

                    CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10350, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 222, COMMITTEE ON RULES (SHIMSKY).  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                                         117



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    JUDICIARY LAW, THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, THE COURT OF CLAIMS

                    ACT, THE NEW YORK CITY CRIMINAL COURT ACT, THE UNIFORM DISTRICT

                    COURT ACT, THE UNIFORM CITY COURT ACT, THE UNIFORM JUSTICE COURT

                    ACT, THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW AND THE FAMILY COURT ACT, IN

                    RELATION TO FILING BY ELECTRONIC MEANS; TO AMEND CHAPTER 237 OF THE

                    LAWS OF 215 AMENDING THE JUDICIARY LAW, THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND

                    RULES AND OTHER LAWS RELATING TO THE USE OF ELECTRONIC MEANS FOR THE

                    COMMENCEMENT AND FILING OF PAPERS IN CERTAIN ACTIONS AND

                    PROCEEDINGS, IN RELATION TO THE EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF; AND TO REPEAL

                    CERTAIN PROVISIONS OF THE CIVIL PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, THE CRIMINAL

                    PROCEDURE LAW AND THE FAMILY COURT ACT, RELATING TO COURT FILINGS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  ON A MOTION BY MS.

                    SHIMSKY, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 AN EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THIS BILL

                    HELPS MOVE FORWARD INCREMENTALLY THE 25-YEAR EFFORT ON THE PART OF

                    OCA TO MOVE THE PRACTICE OF E-FILING THROUGH OUR COURT SYSTEM.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  ABSOLUTELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                         118



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, MS. SHIMSKY.  I THINK

                    YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR OPENING COMMENTS THAT THIS IS AN OCA BILL,

                    OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION, RIGHT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE

                    WOULD BE THE ONE WHO WOULD -- WHO IS THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID AT

                    ADMINISTERING.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND YOU'VE BEEN ASKED TO SPONSOR

                    AND, IN A SENSE, DEFEND THIS BILL AT THE REQUEST OF OCA?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  I SOUGHT THE BILL OUT.  FROM WHAT I

                    UNDERSTAND, THERE'S BEEN A LOT DISCUSSION OVER THE YEARS ABOUT THIS, AND

                    WE GOT IT TO A PLACE WHERE EVERYONE, INCLUDING OCA, MEMBERS OF THIS

                    BODY, FELT COMFORTABLE WITH IT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO JUST SO WE ALL UNDERSTAND MY

                    PERSONAL PREJUDICE, I SHOULD TELL YOU THAT I ROUTINELY REFER TO OCA AS

                    "OUT OF CONTROL COURT ADMINISTRATORS, "OBNOXIOUS COURT

                    ADMINISTRATORS", "ODIOUS -- YOU GET THE GENERAL SENSE.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  I'M SORRY TO HEAR THAT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  YEAH, I'M NOT A FAN.  IN FACT, I -- IN

                    MY EXPERIENCE GOING BACK FOUR YEARS, SOME OF THE WORST LEGISLATION

                    I'VE EVER SEEN THAT'S BURDENED THE STATE OF NEW YORK JUDICIAL SYSTEM

                    HAS COME FROM OCA.  SO WITH THAT PREJUDICE IN MIND, PLEASE BEAR WITH

                    ME.  I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT MY PREJUDICE WASN'T IN ANY WAY

                    IMPUTED TO YOU.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  OR TO THE REST OF THE BODY WHO IS

                    RESPONSIBLE AND SPENDING A LOT TIME CRAFTING A GOOD, COMPROMISED

                                         119



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  INDEED.  IT -- THANK YOU FOR MAKING

                    THAT CLEAR.

                                 SO MY FIRST QUESTION NOW, THIS BILL PURPORTS TO GIVE

                    OCA THE AUTHORITY TO MANDATE THAT EVERY TOWN, VILLAGE AND CITY COURT

                    DO ELECTRONIC FILING, CORRECT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  IT GIVES THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE

                    JUDGE THE AUTHORITY TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, THE

                    LOCAL BARS, TO PUT TOGETHER EITHER OPTIONAL OR MANDATORY SYSTEMS.  OF

                    COURSE, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS FOR MEMBERS OF THE BAR WHO ARE NOT

                    CAPABLE OF USING THE ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS, AS WELL AS FOR PRO SE LITIGANTS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT THE DECISION IS MADE BY OCA,

                    RIGHT?  IT SAYS -- I'M LOOKING ON PAGE 4, LINE 37, PARTICIPATION IN THIS

                    PROGRAM MAY BE REQUIRED OR MAY BE VOLUNTARY, AS PROVIDED BY THE

                    CHIEF ADMINISTRATOR OF OCA, CORRECT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  AFTER THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE

                    JUDGE CONSULTS WITH THE LOCALITIES, THE LEVEL OF COURTS AND THE BARS THAT

                    ARE RELEVANT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S OCA

                    THAT CAN MANDATE IT, CORRECT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  ULTIMATELY, SOMEBODY HAS TO MAKE

                    THE DECISION AND IT'S THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  NOW, THIS IS THE SAME

                    CHIEF ADMINISTRATOR THAT SHUT DOWN ALL THE COURT SYSTEMS AND WOULDN'T

                    ALLOW ANY EVICTION ACTIONS UNLESS THEY WERE BEING CONTESTED, THE SAME

                                         120



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OCA ADMINISTRATOR THAT THE KEPT COURT SYSTEM OPEN FOR MONTHS AND

                    MONTHS AND MONTHS AFTER THE REST OF THE ECONOMY OPENED, EVEN THOUGH

                    JUDGES SIT BEHIND HUGE BENCHES WITH GUARDS TO KEEP PEOPLE AT LEAST TEN

                    OR 20 FEET AWAY?  THAT'S THE SAME COURT ADMINISTRATOR, RIGHT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  WELL --

                                 MR. GOODELL:  OH, WAIT.  I -- I APOLOGIZE, MS.

                    SHIMSKY.  DID MY PREJUDICE COME THROUGH AGAIN?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  I -- I THINK WE'VE GOT TO GO ISSUE BY

                    ISSUE HERE, MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  MY APOLOGIES.

                                 SO YOU SAID THAT THE OCA ADMINISTRATOR WOULD MAKE

                    THIS ULTIMATE DECISION AFTER CONSULTING VARIOUS PEOPLE, AND IT'S A LIST.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  AND -- AND ACTUALLY TO THAT POINT,

                    MR. GOODELL, FOR THE COUNTY COURTS, THE COUNTY CLERK MUST SIGN OFF.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  OKAY.  AND -- BUT THERE'S A LIST,

                    THAT'S ON PAGE 5.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND IT SAYS FOR PARTICIPATION IN THIS

                    PROGRAM IS TO BE REQUIRED, OCA HAS TO CONSULT WITH THE ORGANIZED BAR

                    -- AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LAWYERS, NOT ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE, RIGHT?  THE

                    ORGANIZED BAR.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  RIGHT, RIGHT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND THEN NOT-FOR-PROFIT LEGAL

                    SERVICE PROVIDERS, ASSIGNED LAWYERS, UNAFFILIATED ATTORNEYS -- I'M NOT

                    QUITE SURE WHAT THEY ARE.

                                         121



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  I BELIEVE THOSE ARE ATTORNEYS WHO

                    ARE IN SOLO PRACTICE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  OKAY.  AND ANY OTHER PERSONS AS

                    DEEMED APPROPRIATE, CORRECT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  MM-HMM.  YEAH, A FULL -- A FULL

                    RANGE OF STAKEHOLDERS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT NOT LISTED BY STATUTE ANYWAY,

                    CERTAINLY WITHIN THE DISCRETION WOULD BE ANY OF THE VILLAGE CLERKS OR THE

                    TOWN JUDGES, OR THE VILLAGE JUDGES; IS THAT CORRECT?  THEY'RE NOT LISTED.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THEY -- THEY ARE NOT SPECIFICALLY

                    MENTIONED IN THAT SUBSECTION BUT, OBVIOUSLY, IF MEMBERS OF ALL OF THE

                    RELEVANT PARTS OF THE BAR IN A LOCAL AREA ARE PART OF THE CONVERSATION,

                    THEY'LL END UP BEING PART OF THAT CONVERSATION AS WELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  NOW, THIS IS VERY CLEAR

                    THAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LAWYER, NO MATTER WHAT OCA MANDATES FOR

                    LAWYERS, YOU CAN APPEAR WITHOUT COMPLYING WITH THESE ELECTRONIC

                    FILING REQUIREMENTS, CORRECT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THAT IS CORRECT, IT'S COMPLETELY

                    OPTIONAL FOR PRO SE LITIGANTS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO AS LONG AS YOUR CLIENT APPEARS

                    FIRST WITHOUT YOU, THEN YOU'RE EXCLUDED FROM THE E-FILING?  OR DO YOU

                    HAVE TO THEN SUBSEQUENTLY RE-FILE?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  WELL, I SHOULD THINK THAT IF YOU ARE

                    APPEARING PRO SE, THE -- THE RULES ARE OPTIONAL FOR YOU, BUT WHEN YOU

                    ENGAGE AN ATTORNEY, THE RULES WOULD APPLY TO THAT ATTORNEY TO THE EXTENT

                                         122



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THAT THE ATTORNEY IS COVERED BY THOSE RULES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND SO WE THEN EXPECT A DUAL

                    SYSTEM, ONE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEYS AND

                    EVERYBODY ELSE, CORRECT?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  WELL, IT'S STILL THE SAME COURT SYSTEM

                    AND EVERYTHING, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE -- WHO WOULD

                    NOT HAVE TO E-FILE, THAT IS TRUE, AND THAT IS THE WAY MANY SYSTEMS

                    THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY OPERATE NOW.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I SEE.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THAT'S PRETTY MUCH THE WAY

                    EVERYBODY OPERATES NOW BECAUSE I THINK JUST ABOUT EVERYONE HAS

                    EXCEPTIONS FOR PRO SE LITIGANTS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I HAVE SEVERAL TOWNS THAT ONLY HAVE

                    A COUPLE THOUSAND RESIDENTS, THEY'D STILL HAVE A SEPARATE JUSTICE COURT.  I

                    HAVE VILLAGES THAT ARE LESS THAN 500 RESIDENTS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE A

                    VILLAGE COURT.  IS THERE ANY EXCEPTION FOR TOWNS OR VILLAGES THAT WANT TO

                    OPT OUT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE ELECTRONIC CAPABILITY FOR ELECTRONIC

                    FILING?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THERE IS NO EXCEPTION AS SUCH BUT,

                    AGAIN, I AM SURE THAT THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, AFTER LISTENING TO

                    THE VARIOUS STAKEHOLDERS, WILL CERTAINLY TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND THIS IS THE SAME CHIEF

                    ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE THAT DIDN'T -- NEVER MIND, I'M SORRY.  I KEEP GOING

                    DOWN THAT --

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  WHO KIDNAPPED THE LINDBERGH BABY

                                         123



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND ALL OF THAT, I GET IT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  YEAH.  IS THERE ANY FUNDING, GRANT

                    MONEY OR OTHERWISE, TO ENABLE ALL THESE TOWNS AND VILLAGES,

                    PARTICULARLY THE SMALLER ONES, TO CONVERT THEIR SYSTEMS OVER TO

                    ELECTRONIC FILING?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  NOT AT THIS POINT, BUT YOU SHOULD

                    NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT -- THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE A MANDATE IN A PARTICULAR

                    LOCATION THAT'S GOING TO BE TAKING PLACE, SAY, ON THE 120TH DAY.  THIS

                    SIMPLY CREATES A SITUATION WHERE THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE IS

                    AUTHORIZED TO BEGIN THESE CONVERSATIONS AND THIS PROCESS.  SO IF

                    FUNDING IS REQUIRED, THERE WILL BE DEFINITELY TIME DOWN THE ROAD TO

                    HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND THANK

                    YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE AND YOUR EFFORTS TO KEEP ME ON TRACK.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  AND THANK YOU FOR -- FOR THE YEARS

                    OF FUN, MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I'M MINDFUL OF MY TIME, BUT I

                    WASN'T KIDDING WHEN I SAID OCA COMES OUT WITH THE CRAZIEST BILLS AND

                    RULES AND REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE.  AND WHEN I SAY THAT I

                    REFER TO THEM AS OBNOXIOUS COURT ADMINISTRATORS, OR OUT-OF-CONTROL

                    COURT ADMINISTRATORS, IT IS A PHRASE THAT RESONATES THROUGHOUT THE STATE

                                         124



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF NEW YORK BY EVERY BAR ASSOCIATION, EVERY LICENSED ATTORNEY, AND

                    VIRTUALLY EVERY JUDGE.  I MEAN, IF YOU THINK THAT JUDGES LIKE OCA, THINK

                    AGAIN.  MY TERMS ARE MILD COMPARED TO THEIRS.  I'VE HAD JUDGES SET UP

                    MEETINGS WITH SOME REPRESENTATIVES OF OCA THAT WERE PROPOSING SOME

                    COCKAMAMIE IDEA, AND THE JUDGES PRIVATELY SAID TO ME, YOU'RE MEETING

                    WITH THE CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, SO OF COURSE I'M NOT GONNA CON --

                    ARGUE WITH THEM IN FRONT OF YOU, BUT THIS IS THE STUPIDEST PROPOSAL I'VE

                    HEARD IN MY ENTIRE CAREER.  IT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER.  IT'S ASTOUNDING.

                                 AND I'LL JUST GIVE A COUPLE OF SIMPLE EXAMPLES.  OCA

                    CAME UP WITH THIS BRIGHT IDEA THAT IF YOU WIN A MOTION FOR SUMMARY

                    JUDGMENT, WHICH MEANS THAT THERE ARE NO ISSUES OF FACT, BASED ON THE

                    UNDISPUTED FACTS, YOU WIN.  OCA CAME UP WITH THIS REQUIREMENT THAT IF

                    YOU DIDN'T GET A COURT ORDER SIGNED WITHIN 60 DAYS, YOUR MOTION FOR

                    SUMMARY JUDGMENT IS AUTOMATICALLY DISMISSED.  WHAT'S THAT MEAN?

                    THERE'S NO DISPUTED FACTS, THE COURT HAS HELD THERE'S NO DISPUTED FACTS,

                    AND NOW THE COURT HAS TO SCHEDULE A TRIAL.  WHAT, WE'RE GONNA IMPANEL

                    A JURY WHEN NO THERE'S DISPUTES OF FACT?  THAT'S THE TYPE OF OCA RULE

                    WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

                                 NOW, THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT ELECTRONIC FILING IS THAT IT

                    OVERCOMES ONE OF THE OTHER STUPID OCA RULES THAT WE'VE BEEN

                    SUFFERING FOR FOR ABOUT TWO DECADES, AND THAT WAS THE STUPID OCA RULE

                    THAT SAID WHENEVER YOU MAKE A MOTION YOU HAVE TO ATTACH TO THE

                    MOTION ALL YOUR PRIOR PAPERS.  SO WE USED TO START OUT WITH A, YOU

                    KNOW, A TWO-PAGE MOTION, MAYBE ON A MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE, AND THEN

                    YOU HAD A COUNTER MOTION.  IT HAD TO INCLUDE THEIR FIRST TWO PAGES, AND

                                         125



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THEN IN A SUBSEQUENT MOTION, YOU HAD TO INCLUDE IT ALL.  AND THEN

                    MAYBE THERE'S A DEPOSITION, YOU INCLUDE THAT.  AND THEN YOU MADE A

                    THIRD MOTION AND YOU INCLUDE EVERYTHING.  BY THE TIME YOU WERE DONE,

                    YOU WERE FILING PAPERS THAT WERE SIX INCHES THICK ON A TWO-PAGE

                    MOTION.  THAT WAS AN OCA RULE.  WHY?  BECAUSE APPARENTLY THE

                    JUDGES WERE INCAPABLE OR UNABLE TO KEEP A FILE, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN

                    THE WORLD WOULD DO, AND SIMPLY OPEN THE FILE.  MY GOD, OUR FILES WERE,

                    LIKE, TWO-FEET THICK.  THANK YOU, OCA.

                                 NOW THE GOOD NEWS.  I TOLD YOU I WANTED TO SAY SOME

                    GOOD NEWS.  THE ELECTRONIC FILING ELIMINATED THE NEED TO FILE

                    EVERYTHING EVERY TIME YOU OPENED YOUR -- YOUR BRIEFCASE, BECAUSE WITH

                    ELECTRONIC FILING YOU CAN JUST GO DOWN THE LIST AND CLICK THEM ON YOUR

                    OWN.  SO THANK GOD AFTER 20 YEARS OF BEING BRUTALIZED BY OCA, WE'VE

                    COME UP WITH A WAY AROUND IT.

                                 NOW, OCA WANTS TO EXTEND ITS TENTACLES OF

                    UNREASONABLE CONTROL OVER OUR VILLAGE AND TOWN COURTS AND FORCE THEM,

                    WITHOUT BEING REQUIRED TO EVEN TALK TO THEM, TO GO WITH ELECTRONIC

                    FILING.  SO WHAT ELECTRONIC FILING ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN VILLAGE AND

                    TOWN COURTS?  OH YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT, SMALL CLAIMS ACTIONS.  YOU NOW

                    HAVE TO DO ELECTRONIC FILING FOR SMALL CLAIMS?  FOR GOD'S SAKES, IT'S A

                    ONE-PAGE SHEET.  AND WE EXPECT THESE VILLAGE AND TOWN CLERKS THAT

                    WORK FOR ONLY A FEW DOLLARS A WEEK TO NOW MASTER THIS NEW PROGRAM,

                    PUT IN THE COMPUTER SOFTWARE, PUT IN ALL THE FILING AND DATA RETRIEVAL

                    MECHANISMS, AND OUR JUDGES WHO ARE JUST ABOVE VOLUNTEER IN THESE

                    SMALL VILLAGE COURTS, TO MASTER A NEW SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE SOME

                                         126



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ADMINISTRATOR IN ALBANY WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THE HELL MY

                    COUNTY IS CAN ASSERT THEIR UNREASONABLE CONTROL.

                                 NOW, I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR AT THE BEGINNING AND

                    AS I WILL AT THE END, I AM NOT DIRECTING ANY OF MY CRITICISM TOWARD THE

                    BILL SPONSOR, WHO I THINK IS A FINE LEGISLATOR.  BUT IN CASE YOU MISSED

                    MY TALK, I HATE OCA.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 THANK YOU.

                                 (APPLAUSE/LAUGHTER)

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  A PARTY VOTE HAS BEEN

                    REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WELL, I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER GETTING

                    THAT OFF MY CHEST.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 ALTHOUGH I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DISCREET

                    SINCE I'M GOING BACK INTO PRIVATE PRACTICE.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 BUT -- BUT GETTING BACK ON THE SUBJECT, THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE, I HOPE, IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS, BUT THOSE WHO WANT

                    TO SUPPORT IT ARE CERTAINLY ABLE TO VOTE FOR IT ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU,

                    SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                         127



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  NOW THAT WE KNOW HOW MR. GOODELL FEELS ABOUT OCA --

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 -- IN HIS LAST WEEK WITH US HERE, IT'S -- IT'S BEEN A GREAT

                    RIDE, THOUGH, MR. GOODELL.  IT'S BEEN A GREAT RIDE.  I'M GOING TO COME

                    BACK NEXT YEAR AND I'M GONNA BE SORRY THAT YOU'RE NOT HERE, BUT...  I

                    HOPE THAT WHEN YOU GET BACK TO OCA THEY'RE GOING TO REMIND YOU THAT

                    YOU SAID -- THAT YOU SAID ON THE FLOOR TODAY THEY WERE STUPID, A COUPLE

                    TIMES --

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 -- AND USED THE WORD "HELL" A COUPLE TIMES, TOO.  BUT,

                    YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, YOU'LL GET PAST -- I'M SURE YOU'LL

                    GET PAST ALL THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS.

                                 SO MR. SPEAKER, THE DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GONNA

                    BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION, EVEN THOUGH SOME OF US DON'T

                    LIKE OCA EITHER.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 BUT HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD LIKE TO

                    BE AN EXCEPTION, THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO USE -- JUST VOTE AT THEIR SEATS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MS. SHIMSKY TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  JUST ABOUT EVERY COURT IN THE COUNTRY HAS GONE TO E-FILING

                                         128



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER FOR THE LITIGANTS.  IT IS MORE CONVENIENT, IT SAVES A

                    LOT OF TIME, AND IT'S BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.  EVEN PRO SE LITIGANTS,

                    ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE TO DRIVE 40 OR 50 OR MORE MILES TO THE

                    COURTHOUSE, OFTEN FIND E-FILING A REALLY GOOD IDEA AND END UP USING IT

                    FOR THEIR CASES AS WELL.  FOR 25 YEARS, NEW YORK STATE HAS BEEN

                    MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF MORE E-FILING.  THIS BILL IS PART OF THAT

                    MOTION, AND CONSIDERING HOW PREVALENT COMPUTERS ARE IN OUR SOCIETY AT

                    THIS POINT, IT'S CERTAINLY TIME TO TAKE THE NEXT STEP AND MOVE IT FURTHER.

                    IN TERMS OF OUR LOCAL COURTS, AS I SAID, THERE WILL BE TIME TO FIGURE OUT

                    HOW TO HELP EASE THEM ALONG IN THE MOST COST-EFFECTIVE WAY POSSIBLE.

                    BUT WE DO HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO CONTINUE A

                    FUTILE ATTEMPT TO WALL OFF COMMUNITIES FROM THE 21ST CENTURY, OR DO WE

                    RECOGNIZE THE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD AND THEN WORK WITH THEM, AS THIS

                    BILL MODELS, TO -- TO MOVE INTO A DIRECTION THAT IS BETTER FOR ALL LITIGANTS,

                    ATTORNEYS AND THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

                                 AND TO MR. GOODELL, GOOD LUCK IN YOUR CONTINUED

                    LEGAL PRACTICE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  MS. SHIMSKY IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE, I ASSUME?

                                 MS. SHIMSKY:  OH, THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER JONES:  OKAY.

                                 MR. FLOOD.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU, SPEAKER.  AND SO AS I DO

                    WANT TO LAUD THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL AS, YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN A SYSTEM

                    WHERE WE USE TECHNOLOGY AT ALL, BUT AS A PRACTICING ATTORNEY AND

                                         129



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SOMEONE WHO WAS JUST FILING AN ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE LAST WEEK, THIS --

                    NOTHING ABOUT THIS E-FILING SYSTEM IS EASY.  IT WAS MUCH EASIER TO

                    SIMPLY WALK INTO A CLERK'S OFFICE TO HAVE THEM TAKE A LOOK AT THE

                    PAPERS.  IF THERE WAS SOMETHING SLIGHTLY WRONG, YOU COULD WALK OVER,

                    MAKE A QUICK CHANGE.  IT'S NOT THAT WAY ANYMORE.  IT'S NOT SIMPLE, IT'S

                    NOT EASY ON PARALEGALS WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR 40 YEARS, IT'S

                    NOT EASY ON ATTORNEYS.  SO -- LET ALONE IT'S NOT GONNA BE EASY ON THE

                    GENERAL PUBLIC.

                                 I WILL ECHO SOME OF MY COLLEAGUE'S COMMENTS ABOUT

                    OCA NOT BEING THE MOST FRIENDLY ORGANIZATION TO ATTORNEYS AND JUDGES.

                    I -- I STILL HAVE A LOT MORE -- A LONGER PRACTICE TO GO, SO I'M NOT GONNA

                    SAY ANYTHING TOO MUCH.  BUT MAYBE OCA NEEDS TO GO AND MAKE SOME

                    MORE STEPS TO MAKE THIS A MORE USER-FRIENDLY PROCESS BEFORE

                    MANDATING THAT THE ENTIRE STATE GO TO THIS BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S

                    NOT A VERY EASY PROCESS.  YOU THINK IT'S SIMPLE BY JUST SIMPLY GOING

                    ONLINE AND CLICKING A FEW BUTTONS AND GETTING IT SUBMITTED, IT'S NOT THAT

                    WAY.  IT'S QUITE COMPLEX AND IT'S NOT EASY FOR THE AVERAGE ATTORNEY, LET

                    ALONE -- LET ALONE A PRO SE LITIGANT.

                                 SO I VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE, I ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES

                    TO DO THE SAME.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. FLOOD IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                         130



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 PAGE 12, RULES REPORT NO. 226, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A00373-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 226, BRONSON, TAYLOR, DARLING, ROZIC, CRUZ, GLICK, L.

                    ROSENTHAL, SIMONE, LAVINE, BORES, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, SEAWRIGHT,

                    BENEDETTO, REYES, WEPRIN, BRABENEC, SILLITTI, RAGA, SLATER, BRAUNSTEIN,

                    DINOWITZ, DURSO, ZEBROWSKI, ARDILA, STECK, RA, BURGOS, EPSTEIN,

                    RAJKUMAR, GIBBS, TAPIA, HYNDMAN, BERGER, LEE, BURDICK, JACOBSON,

                    K. BROWN, BENDETT, REILLY, MCDONOUGH, PHEFFER AMATO, MIKULIN,

                    WALSH, SANTABARBARA, STERN.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE LABOR LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO INCLUSION OF CERTAIN OFF-SITE CUSTOM FABRICATION AS PUBLIC

                    WORK FOR THE PURPOSES OF PAYMENT OF PREVAILING WAGE; AND PROVIDING

                    FOR THE REPEAL OF CERTAIN PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MR. BRONSON.

                                 MR. BRONSON:  YES, MR. SPEAKER.  THIS BILL WOULD

                    CLOSE A LOOPHOLE AND WOULD REQUIRE, CONSISTENT WITH THE NEW YORK

                    STATE CONSTITUTION, THE PAYMENT OF PREVAILING WAGE FOR CERTAIN OFF-SITE

                    CUSTOM FABRICATION PERFORMED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PUBLIC WORKS

                    PROJECT.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. TAGUE.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THROUGH

                    YOU, WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BRONSON, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  YES, I WILL, MR. SPEAKER.

                                         131



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS,

                    SIR.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  THANK YOU.  MY FIRST QUESTION IS, I

                    HAVE SOME QUESTIONS MYSELF OF -- AS WHETHER THIS LEGISLATION AS WRITTEN

                    VIOLATES FEDERAL LAW AND, MORE SPECIFICALLY, WOULD BE THE TAFT-HARTLEY

                    ACT.  WOULD YOU LIKE TO RESPOND TO THAT?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  YES.  WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS

                    WOULD VIOLATE THE TAFT-HARTLEY ACT.  INDEED, THE LEGISLATION SPECIFICALLY

                    EXCLUDES PROJECTS THAT ARE FUNDED THROUGH FEDERAL DOLLARS.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  OKAY.  NOW THE OTHER QUESTION THAT I

                    HAVE, IS THE PREVAILING WAGE RATE BEING PAID FOR THE LOCATION THAT THE

                    FABRICATION IS TAKING PLACE, OR IS THE PREVAILING WAGE RATE FOR THE --

                    BEING PAID FOR THE JOB LOCATION?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  IT WOULD BE BASED ON THE LOCATION

                    OF THE PUBLIC WORKS PROJECT.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  OKAY.  SO THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST

                    PROBLEMS THAT I HAVE:  IF YOU'RE DOING A JOB IN EAST SENECA, OKAY, BUT

                    YOUR SHOP IS IN, LET'S SAY, BUFFALO, AND LET'S SAY THAT THE PREVAILING WAIT

                    RAGE [SIC] CLASSIFICATION FOR A FABRICATOR IS DIFFERENT.  SO THAT PERSON IS

                    GETTING PAID FOR THE WEST SENECA CLASSIFICATION PREVAILING RATE, CORRECT?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  SO, THIS -- WHAT THIS -- THIS BILL IS

                    NOT GONNA CHANGE THE WAY CLASSIFICATIONS ARE DETERMINED CURRENTLY.  IT

                    WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW LABOR LAW 220 WHICH REQUIRES THE JURISDICTION

                    TO REPORT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR.  THE COMMISSIONER WOULD IN

                    TURN SET THE CLASSIFICATIONS AND SET THE PREVAILING RATE.  SO IT -- WE'RE

                                         132



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NOT CHANGING THAT IN ANY WAY AND, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS WORKED WELL

                    UNDER LABOR LAW 220, AND CERTAINLY WE BELIEVE IT WILL CONTINUE TO

                    WORK UNDER 220 (INAUDIBLE).

                                 MR. TAGUE:  IS THERE A -- IS THERE A FAB -- IS THERE A

                    RATE NOW FOR A FABRICATOR, AND IS THAT THE CLASSIFICATION OF THE JOB?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  THERE ARE RATES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE

                    ENGAGED IN, YOU KNOW, BRICK AND MASON WORK, FOR ELECTRICIANS, FOR

                    LABORERS, AND IF THOSE FOLKS ARE INVOLVED IN FABRICATION, THEN WHATEVER

                    THAT TRADE IS WOULD BE THE PREVAILING RATE THAT WOULD BE FOR THAT

                    CLASSIFICATION.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  OKAY.  I APPRECIATE THAT, AS ALWAYS,

                    HARRY.

                                 WHAT HAPPENS IF THE FABRICATION IS TAKING PLACE OUT-

                    OF-STATE OR EVEN OUT OF THE COUNTRY?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  SO, WE -- THIS WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT

                    THE PREVAILING RATE WOULD APPLY TO THAT WORK NONETHELESS, EVEN THOUGH

                    IT'S IN A DIFFERENT STATE.  AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE AUTHORITY TO DO

                    THAT AS A -- AS A MARKET PARTICIPANT IN -- IN E-COMMERCE.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  SO IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU -- IF -- IF A

                    CONTRACTOR WERE TO CONTRACT WITH SOMEBODY FROM CANADA, YOU FEEL THAT

                    -- BECAUSE THIS -- THIS IS STARTING TO GET INTO WHERE I THINK THAT THIS ISN'T

                    COMPLETELY LEGAL, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS GONNA -- THERE'S GONNA BE A

                    BIG LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THIS LEGISLATION IF THE GOVERNOR PASSES IT.  BUT

                    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR CAN

                    FILE SUIT AGAINST A CANADIAN COMPANY FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE PREVAILING

                                         133



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WAGE RATE LAW?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  THERE IS EXISTING CASE LAW THAT

                    SHOWS THAT A STATE WHICH HAS A INTEREST IN THE WAY THEIR TAXPAYERS

                    DOLLARS ARE SPENT OR OTHERWISE THAT THEY, INDEED, CAN REQUIRE WORK THAT'S

                    PERFORMED IN THE DIFFERENT STATE WITH THE FABRICATED PRODUCT COMING TO

                    NEW YORK STATE THAT WE CAN HAVE -- WE CAN HAVE -- REQUIRE OUR --

                    CONSTITUTIONALLY REQUIRED IN LABOR LAW 220, REQUIRE PREVAILING RATE TO

                    APPLY.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  IS THERE A MECHANISM IN PLACE OR IN

                    THIS LEGISLATION THAT PROVIDES CURRICULUM OR EDUCATION TO TEACH

                    CONTRACTORS HOW THEY CAN BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THESE MANDATES AND

                    UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?  BECAUSE -- AND I'LL JUST PUT THIS OUT THERE,

                    HARRY.  AS YOU KNOW, I WORKED IN THIS INDUSTRY --

                                 MR. BRONSON:  MM-HMM.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  -- FOR ALMOST 30 YEARS.  AND WHEN

                    YOU'RE DOING PREVAILING WAGE RATE WITH DIFFERENT CLASSIFICATIONS OF JOB,

                    USUALLY THOSE THAT WORK ON ROAD CONSTRUCTION CREWS OR HVCC [SIC],

                    THEY'RE USED TO DOING THIS EVERY DAY, TEN HOURS A DAY, 12 HOURS A DAY.

                    BUT WHEN YOU GET INTO DOING PREFABRICATION AND WORK LIKE THIS BACK AT

                    THE SHOP, THEY MAY BE WORKING ON YOUR PROJECT -- PROJECT FOR 45

                    MINUTES, ANOTHER PROJECT FOR AN HOUR THAT MAY NOT BE A PREVAILING RATE

                    WAGE JOB.  THIS IS, TO ME, THIS IS A BOOKKEEPER'S NIGHTMARE, A

                    BOOKKEEPER'S NIGHTMARE.

                                 MR. BRONSON:  SO, I -- I APPRECIATE THAT, AND

                    CERTAINLY, I -- I BELIEVE THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR WOULD BE WILLING

                                         134



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TO ASSIST CONTRACTORS IN UNDERSTANDING THIS IN A BETTER WAY.  THE BILL

                    ITSELF DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY REQUIRE ANY TYPE OF EDUCATION IN THAT REGARD.

                    BUT WE WOULD WANT CONTRACTORS TO GET THIS RIGHT AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN,

                    I -- I WANT TO REITERATE, THOUGH, THE LANGUAGE OF THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION

                    SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT THIS WILL ONLY APPLY TO FABRICATION THAT IS SOLELY

                    AND SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED AND ENGINEERED FOR INSTALLATION IN THE PUBLIC

                    WORKS PROJECT.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  WELL, THAT, AGAIN -- AND THAT'S ANOTHER

                    QUESTION THAT I HAVE HERE, AND YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO ANSWER

                    IT.  HOWEVER, IF YOU HAVE EQUIPMENT ON A JOB AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE A

                    PIECE FOR THAT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT TO BE ABLE TO DO A CERTAIN TASK ON THE

                    JOB, AND I GUESS WHETHER YOU BRING IT BACK TO THE SHOP TO DO IT OR YOU

                    DO IT OUT ON THE JOB, IS THAT -- IS THAT GOING TO INCLUDE THIS LAW?  THE

                    PEOPLE DOING THAT WORK, ARE THEY NOW GONNA HAVE TO GET PAID UNDER

                    THAT CLASSIFICATION AS A FABRICATOR OR WHATEVER WE'RE GONNA NAME IT?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  SO THIS ONLY RELATES TO THE CUSTOM

                    FABRICATION AS IT RELATES TO THE CONSTRUCTION AND RENOVATION AND THE REST

                    OF THE WORDS THAT ARE UNDER EXISTING 220 THAT DEEMS IT TO BE

                    CONSTRUCTION WORK.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  OKAY.  WELL, I APPRECIATE IT, AS

                    ALWAYS.  I APPRECIATE OUR CONVERSATIONS WITH REGARDS TO THESE

                    CONSTRUCTION ISSUES AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR HARD WORK, HARRY.

                                 ON THE BILL, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 MR. BRONSON:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                         135



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. TAGUE:  AS I HAD MENTIONED EARLIER WITH THE

                    BACK-AND-FORTH QUESTIONS WITH THE -- WITH THE CHAIRMAN, THIS BILL AS

                    NEWLY DRAFTED, I BELIEVE AND I THINK MANY OTHERS BELIEVE, LIKELY

                    VIOLATES THE TAFT-HARTLEY RULES BY FORCING A CONTRACTOR TO PAY WAGES.

                    AS UNION CONTRACTORS OPERATING UNDER NEGOTIATED COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

                    AGREEMENTS, WHICH WE ALL CALL -- ALSO CALL CBA, THE OBJECTION IS NOT TO

                    APPLY PREVAILING WAGE RATES FOR THIS WORK.  OBJECTIONS CAN BE BROKEN

                    INTO THREE CATEGORIES:  LEGAL LIMITATIONS DUE TO FEDERAL LAW; THE

                    IMPOSSIBILITY OF CORRECTLY ADMINISTRATING SUCH LAW; AND KEEPING NEW

                    YORK WITH OTHER -- KEEPING NEW YORK COMPETITIVE WITH OTHER

                    JURISDICTIONS.  WORKER SAFETY AND EFFICIENCY AND THE VAGUENESS OF THE

                    LEGISLATION ARE MY BIGGEST REASONS FOR BEING OPPOSED.

                                 THE LABOR MANAGEMENT RELATIONS ACT OF 1947, MOST

                    COMMONLY KNOWN AS THE TAFT-HARTLEY ACT, RESTRICTS PAYMENTS TO

                    WORKERS UNLESS SUCH PAYMENTS ARE SPECIFIED IN A WRITTEN AGREEMENT

                    WITH THE EMPLOYER.  CURRENTLY, ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS NEGOTIATE WITH

                    REPRESENTATIVE UNIONS ON A REGIONAL BASIS TO SET WAGE AND BENEFIT

                    STANDARDS FOR THEIR GEOGRAPHIC AREA.  UNDER THIS BILL, AN ELECTRICIAN

                    WORKING UNDER A NEGOTIATED CBA IN ONE REGION WOULD BE REQUIRED TO

                    BE PAID THE PREVAILING RATE OF A REGION TO WHICH THE COMPONENT IS SENT.

                    FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CASE THAT A FABRICATION SHOP IN SYRACUSE IS BUILDING

                    COMPONENTS FOR A HOUSING PROJECT IN NEW YORK CITY, THE ELECTRICIAN IN

                    SYRACUSE WOULD BE PAID THE PREVAILING RATE FOR NEW YORK CITY.

                    HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT COMPLIANT WITH FEDERAL LAW BECAUSE THE

                    ELECTRICIAN IN SYRACUSE IS WORKING UNDER A NEGOTIATED CBA IN THE

                                         136



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SYRACUSE REGION AND IS NOT BOUND BY NEW YORK CITY.  THE PROPOSED

                    LEGISLATION CAN -- CAN FACE SIGNIFICANT LEGAL CHALLENGES OF THE

                    TAFT-HARTLEY ACT.  EXPLICITLY, IT PROHIBITS UNIONS FROM FORCING

                    EMPLOYERS TO ASSIGN WORK TO EMPLOYEES IN A DIFFERENT BARGAINING UNIT

                    OR LOCATION THAT INITIALLY AGREED UPON.  THIS CREATES A LEGAL CONFLICT

                    WHEN REQUIRING A FABRICATOR IN ONE REGION TO BE PAID THE PREVAILING

                    WAGE OF ANOTHER REGION, AS PROPOSED IN THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

                    ADDITIONALLY THE TART -- THE TAFT-HARTLEY ACT OUTLINES VARIOUS UNFAIR

                    LABOR PRACTICES AND THE JURISDICTION OF THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS

                    BOARD TO ENFORCE THESE PROVISIONS.  SECTION 10-A GRANTS THE NLRB THE

                    AUTHORITY TO PREVENT ANY PERSON FROM ENGAGING IN UNFAIR LABOR

                    PRACTICES.  THIS INCLUDES JURISDICTION OVER DISPUTES ARISING FROM THE

                    IMPOSITION OF DIFFERING REGIONAL WAGE RATES, POTENTIALLY MAKING PARTS

                    OF THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION UNENFORCEABLE UNDER FEDERAL LAW.  SIMILAR

                    STATE LAWS HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED DUE TO CONFLICTS WITH FEDERAL LAW.

                    THIS BILL'S REQUIREMENTS CAN RESULT IN COSTLY LEGAL BATTLES THAT WOULD

                    ULTIMATELY BURDEN TAXPAYERS, AND OF COURSE DELAY PUBLIC WORKS

                    PROJECTS, AND AS I MENTIONED IN THE DEBATE, IMPOSSIBLE, IMPOSSIBLE,

                    ADMINISTRATION REQUIREMENTS.

                                 YOU KNOW, CONTINUING THE EXAMPLE ABOVE, A

                    PREFABRICATION SHOP IN SYRACUSE MAY BE BUILDING COMPONENTS FOR

                    PROJECTS ACROSS THE STATE ALL UNDER ONE ROOF.  AN ELECTRICIAN MAY BE

                    BUILDING COMPONENTS THAT WILL BE USED IN PROJECTS IN VARIOUS REGIONS OF

                    THE STATE, ALL WITHIN THE SAME HOUR.  UNDER THIS BILL, THE TIME TAKEN TO

                    BUILD EACH COMPONENT FOR EACH REGION WOULD NEED TO BE TRACKED, AND

                                         137



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE PREVAILING WAGE FOR THE PROJECT DESTINATION WOULD NEED TO BE

                    CORRECTLY APPLIED FOR THAT TIME IN A SINGLE HOUR.  IN JUST A SINGLE HOUR AN

                    ELECTRICIAN BUILDING THESE COMPONENTS MAY BE REQUIRED TO BE PAID

                    SEVERAL DIFFERENT PREVAILING RATES FOR THE SAME HOUR.  SIMILARLY, IT

                    WOULD NEED TO BE TRACKED FOR EACH COMPONENT, WHETHER THE COMPONENT

                    IS HEADED FOR A PUBLIC OR A PRIVATE JOB.

                                 AND LASTLY, I WANT TO TOUCH ON THE COMPETITIVENESS

                    AND ANTIBUSINESS CLIMATE THAT WE ALREADY HAVE IN NEW YORK STATE.

                    OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, MANY CUSTOMERS ARE SWITCHING TO

                    PREFABRICATED COMPONENTS FOR JOBS FOR A MULT -- A MULTITUDE OF REASONS,

                    BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, WORKER SAFETY AND EFFICIENCY.  WORKERS ARE SAFER

                    IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT OFF SITE WITH A SINGLE TRADE-BUILDING

                    COMPONENT.  IF THIS WORK WERE TO BE DONE ON THE JOB SITE WHERE ALL THE

                    VARIOUS TRADES ARE ENGAGING IN THEIR WORK, THE RISK OF INJURY AND

                    ACCIDENTS INCREASES.  AND SECONDLY, IT IS MORE EFFICIENT TO BUILD

                    COMPONENTS OFF SITE THAN INSTALL THEM ON THE JOB SITE.  IF THIS BILL WERE

                    TO BECOME LAW AND THE IMPOSSIBLE ADMINISTRATION REQUIREMENTS WERE

                    PLACED ON PREFABRICATION WORK, CUSTOMERS WOULD FACE A CHOICE EITHER

                    TO DO THE WORK ON SITE OR BY COMPONENTS, AS I MENTIONED, FROM

                    OUT-OF-STATE OR EVEN OUT-OF-COUNTRY, NEITHER OF WHICH BENEFITS NEW

                    YORK WORKERS.  COMPARING NEW YORK'S COMPETITIVENESS WITH

                    NEIGHBORING STATES SHOWS THAT BUSINESS AND JOBS WOULD BE DRIVEN OUT

                    OF NEW YORK STATE WITH MORE FAVORABLE REGULATIONS.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, I ALSO WOULD JUST LIKE TO MENTION THAT

                    THERE ARE ACTUALLY MANY LABOR ORGANIZATIONS AND UNIONS THAT ARE

                                         138



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ACTUALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION, AND I'D LIKE TO JUST FOR THE RECORD

                    LIST SOME OF THEM OFF:  NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS, SHEET METAL

                    AND AIR CONDITIONING CONTRACTORS, MECHANICAL CONTRACTORS, SUB --

                    SUBCONTRACTORS TRADE ASSOCIATION.  I GOT MORE HERE, I PROMISE YOU.

                    CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION OF ROCHESTER, ASSOCIATED BUILDERS

                    AND CONTRACTORS, CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRIES EMPLOYEES ASSOCIATION,

                    EMPIRE STATE ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS, NFIB, CEA OF

                    CENTRAL NEW YORK.  THE LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON.

                                 AND I WANT TO JUST LEAVE YOU WITH THIS IN CLOSING:  THE

                    GOVERNMENT CENTER FOR GOVERNMENTAL RESEARCH AT THE EMPIRE CENTER

                    ESTIMATES THAT THESE MANDATES COULD, ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE

                    DISCUSSED, DRIVE UP THE COST OF CONSTRUCTION AS MUCH AS 25 PERCENT.

                    AND AGAIN, THIS IS JUST AN ADMINISTRATIVE NIGHTMARE FOR BOTH

                    CONTRACTORS, SKILLED WORKERS, DOL AND DOT.  FOR THOSE REASONS, I WILL

                    BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE AND I WOULD SURELY ASK MY COLLEAGUES TO DO

                    THE SAME.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND THANK YOU, MR. SPONSOR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MS. GIGLIO.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BRONSON, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  YES, I WILL, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU.  SO HOW DOES THIS RELATE

                                         139



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TO, SAY YOU WANT TO BUY PRODUCTS THAT ARE BEING PRODUCED OFF SITE FROM

                    NEW JERSEY OR CONNECTICUT?  HOW DO WE ENFORCE THAT PREVAILING WAGE

                    LAW IF A PUBLIC WORKS PROJECT CHOOSES TO BUY THEIR OFF SITE CURTAIN WALLS

                    OR FABRICATED PROJECTS?  HOW DO WE -- HOW DO WE ISOLATE THAT TO NEW

                    YORK?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  FIRST OF ALL, THE BILL WOULD ONLY

                    AUTHORIZE REQUIRING PREVAILING RATE TO BE PAID IF THAT FABRICATION IS

                    SOLELY AND SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT PUBLIC WORKS.  AND THE WAY WE WOULD

                    ENFORCE IT WOULD BE TO PUT THEM ON NOTICE.  YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW THE

                    PROCESS, YOU'RE IN THIS INDUSTRY.  SO, THE DEPARTMENT OR -- OR THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF JURISDICTION INDICATES TO THE DOL THAT THEY'RE ENGAGING

                    AND HAVE ENTERED INTO A CONTRACT FOR PUBLIC WORKS.  THE COMMISSIONER

                    LOOKS AND ANALYZES THE CLASSIFICATION OF WORKERS NECESSARY FOR THAT

                    PROJECT AND THEN ISSUES DIRECTIVES REGARDING THE PREVAILING RATE.  THIS

                    WOULD BE THE EXACT SAME THING, IT WOULD JUST GO TO THAT PREFABRICATION

                    OUTFIT THAT'S IN, SAY, NEW JERSEY.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  OKAY.  YEAH, I REALLY -- I MEAN, I WANT

                    TO THANK YOU FOR THE BILL BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT -- IT LEVELS THE PLAYING

                    FIELD FOR ALL CONTRACTORS, AND IT'S NOT BASED ON YOUR DEMOGRAPHIC

                    LOCATION WHERE YOU MAY PAY YOUR WORKERS A HIGHER SALARY BECAUSE THE

                    COST OF LIVING THERE IS HIGHER RATHER THAN ANOTHER PART OF THE STATE.  SO IT

                    LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD, AND IT ALSO ALLOWS FOR WORKERS WITHIN THAT

                    JURISDICTION TO POTENTIALLY GET THAT WORK WHERE TRANSPORTATION COSTS

                    WOULD BE LESS AND OTHER FACTORS AND OFF SITE FABRICATION WOULD BE LESS.

                                 SO I -- I LIKE THE BILL WITH THAT REGARD, I'M JUST

                                         140



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CONCERNED THAT IF A PUBLIC WORKS DECIDES TO GET, SAY, PRODUCTS THAT ARE

                    FABRICATED IN NEW JERSEY OR CONNECTICUT, THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE

                    ABLE TO ENFORCE THAT PREVAILING WAGE EVEN -- BECAUSE THEY MAY NOT

                    EVEN HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO FILE THE CERTIFIED PAYROLL WITH NEW YORK

                    STATE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR IF IT'S AN OUT-OF-STATE COMPANY.  SO THAT'S

                    MY ONLY CONCERN WITH THE BILL.  BUT I WILL BE SUPPORTING THE BILL AND

                    THEN HOPEFULLY WE'LL BE ABLE TO TIGHTEN THAT UP A LITTLE BIT TO SAY THAT

                    PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS SHOULD BE BOUGHT FROM, BECAUSE MOST OF IT IS

                    FUNDED BY THE GOVERNMENT, NEW YORK STATE, AND BY COUNTIES AND BY

                    MUNICIPALITIES THAT THAT WORK, IT STAYS IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.  SO

                    THANK YOU.

                                 MR. BRONSON:  THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I'LL BE

                    VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 60TH

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE WILL BE GENERALLY OPPOSED BY -- FOR THE REASONS THAT HAVE

                    BEEN STATED, ALTHOUGH SEVERAL OF MY MEMBERS WILL WANT TO VOTE YES FOR

                    THE REASONS STATED.  SO IT'S A PARTY VOTE NO, BUT THOSE MEMBERS WHO

                                         141



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SUPPORT IT SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  THE DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE IS GONNA BE VOTING IN SUPPORT OF

                    THIS LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT DESIRE TO BE AN

                    EXCEPTION.  THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR SEATS.  THANK YOU,

                    SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, MA'AM.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. BRONSON TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. BRONSON:  YES, MR. SPEAKER, I ABSTAIN FOR THE

                    PURPOSES OF EXPLAINING MY VOTE.  YOU KNOW, SOME OF YOU MAY OR MAY

                    NOT KNOW, I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS ISSUE SINCE ROUGHLY 2006 AND I'M

                    PRETTY PLEASED THAT THIS BILL IS HERE ON THE FLOOR FOR A FULL VOTE.  BUT LET

                    ME REMIND FOLKS, THIS COMES FROM THE NEW YORK STATE CONSTITUTION.

                    ARTICLE 1, SECTION 17 SAYS:  LABOR OF HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT A COMMODITY

                    NOR AN ARTICLE OF COMMERCE AND SHALL NEVER BE SO CONSIDERED OR

                    CONSTRUED.  NO LABORER, WORKER OR MECHANIC IN THE EMPLOY OF A

                    CONTRACTOR OR SUBCONTRACTOR ENGAGED IN THE PERFORMANCE OF ANY PUBLIC

                    WORK SHALL BE PAID LESS THAN THE RATE OF WAGES PREVAILING IN THE SAME

                    TRADE OR OCCUPATION IN THE LOCALITY WITHIN THE STATE WHERE SUCH PUBLIC

                    WORK IS LOCATED.  THIS IS A CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENT.  AND BECAUSE

                    THINGS HAVE CHANGED, TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED, OR FOR THE MERE PURPOSE

                                         142



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF AVOIDING PAYING PREVAILING WAGE, FOLKS HAVE STARTED USING OFF SITE

                    FABRICATION.  THIS CLOSES THAT LOOPHOLE.  THIS REQUIRES THAT WE PAY

                    PREVAILING RATE, AS THE CONSTITUTION TELLS US WE MUST.  IT HELPS THE

                    WORKERS BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING PAID A GOOD WAGE WITH BENEFITS AND

                    SUPPLEMENTS.  IT HELPS OUR LOCAL ECONOMY BECAUSE THOSE WORKERS, IN

                    TURN, WILL BE CONTRIBUTING TO THE ECONOMY.

                                 THIS BILL IS THE RIGHT THING FOR US TO DO.  I'M THANKFUL IT

                    HAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, AND I'M THANKFUL FOR ALL THE FOLKS WHO HAVE

                    COME TO ME TO SAY, LET'S GIVE IT A GO AGAIN, HARRY.  LET'S GIVE IT A GO

                    AND SEE IF WE CAN GET OFF SITE FABRICATION RIGHT-SIDED SO THAT WORKERS

                    ARE GETTING PAID THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO THE PREVAILING RATE.  WE

                    BELIEVE WE HAVE MADE CHANGES TO DEAL WITH THE FEDERAL CONFLICT THAT

                    MIGHT EXIST, AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE ARE FOLLOWING CASE LAW THAT

                    AUTHORIZES THIS STATE, AS A MARKET PARTICIPANT, TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE

                    ABILITY TO REQUIRE PREVAILING RATES --

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. --

                                 MR. BRONSON:  -- FROM OTHER STATES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BRONSON?

                                 MR. BRONSON:  WITH THAT, I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST

                    AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BRONSON IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. RA TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. RA:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  LAST FALL I HAD

                    THE OPPORTUNITY WITH A NUMBER OF COLLEAGUES TO GO VISIT WITH -- WITH A

                                         143



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BUSINESS AND A GROUP OF WORKERS WHO DO SOME OF THIS TYPE OF WORK,

                    PARTICULARLY THESE WERE SHEET METAL WORKERS, AND THEY WALKED US

                    THROUGH THEIR DESIGN PROCESS AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY DO; HIGHLY-

                    SKILLED INDIVIDUALS WHO DESERVE TO BE PAID A FAIR AND PREVAILING WAGE.

                    SO I THINK THAT THIS BILL IS IMPORTANT TO CLOSE THE LOOPHOLE, AS THE

                    SPONSOR HAD INDICATED.  IF THESE MATERIALS WERE BEING DONE ON SITE, THEY

                    WOULD BE SUBJECT TO PREVAILING WAGE, SO THAT'S ALL THIS DOES.  AND IT

                    ENSURES THAT WHEN WE ARE EXPENDING PUBLIC FUNDS FOR PUBLIC WORKS,

                    THAT WE PAY A PREVAILING WAGE WHICH IS CONSISTENT WITH THE NEW YORK

                    STATE CONSTITUTION, AS THE SPONSOR JUST -- JUST STATED.

                                 SO, I'M PROUD TO BE A COSPONSOR AND CAST MY VOTE IN

                    THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. RA IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. DURSO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I RISE TO

                    EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  I ALSO WAS WITH THE -- WITH MR. RA ON THAT ONSITE

                    FABRICATION WITH THE SHEET METAL WORKERS, AGAIN, TO SEE THAT THE WORK

                    THAT THEY DO AND THE SKILLED CRAFTSMANSHIP THAT THEY -- THEY POSSESS,

                    AGAIN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I'M -- I'M GLAD TO SUPPORT, BE A COSPONSOR.  I

                    WAS ALSO HAPPY TO SEE THAT THE DRAFTING PROCESS WAS PUT INTO THE BILL.  I

                    WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR BEING ABLE TO DO THAT, AND THANK THE

                    SPONSOR FOR PROTECTING LABOR HERE IN NEW YORK STATE AND ALL OUR

                    WORKERS.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. DURSO IN THE

                                         144



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 13, RULES REPORT NO. 241, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A04363, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 241, ZEBROWSKI, MAGNARELLI, WEPRIN, MCDONOUGH, MCMAHON,

                    GLICK, SOLAGES, HUNTER, HYNDMAN, SEPTIMO, SAYEGH.  AN ACT TO AMEND

                    THE UNIFORM JUSTICE COURT ACT, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING MINIMUM

                    EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF CERTAIN TOWN AND VILLAGE JUSTICES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ZEBROWSKI, AN

                    EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED, SIR.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  SURE, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    THIS BILL WOULD TAKE A MODEST STEP IN ADDRESSING A OVER CENTURIES-OLD

                    PROBLEM OF NON-ATTORNEYS DISPENSING JUSTICE, OR MANY TIMES THE LACK OF

                    JUSTICE, IN OUR TOWN AND VILLAGE JUSTICE COURTS ACROSS THE STATE OF NEW

                    YORK.  STUDY AFTER STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT THESE NON-ATTORNEY JUDGES ARE

                    SUBJECT TO MORE DISCIPLINE, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO BEING REMOVED FROM THE

                    BENCH AT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE THAN -- THAN ATTORNEYS.  AND THERE HAS

                    BEEN EXPOSÉ AFTER EXPOSÉ, PROBABLY THE MOST FAMOUS OF WHICH WAS IN

                    THE MID-2000S BY THE NEW YORK TIMES WHO REVIEWED COURT RECORDS

                    AND ALSO WENT INTO VARIOUS COURTS.  AND WHEN YOU READ THAT ARTICLE IT'S

                    JUST SHOCKING, THE TYPE OF SITUATIONS THAT NEW YORKERS HAVE FOUND

                    THEMSELVES IN.  YOU KNOW, THE -- THE IDEA THAT NON-ATTORNEYS SHOULD BE

                    JUDGES DATES BACK TO COLONIAL TIMES, TIMES WHEN THERE WERE NOT MANY

                                         145



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ATTORNEYS AROUND.  AND IT'S SO INCREDIBLY OUT-OF-DATE THAT I CAN'T BELIEVE

                    WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT HERE ON THE FLOOR OF THE ASSEMBLY.  AND --

                    AND I'VE CERTAINLY DRAFTED OTHER BILLS THAT WOULD GO EVEN FURTHER, BUT

                    THIS IS THE ONE THAT IS THE COMPROMISE BILL THAT'S ON THE FLOOR TODAY.  SO

                    THIS WOULD ALLOW TOWNS OR VILLAGES TO, AT THAT LOCAL OPTION, REQUIRE THAT

                    THEIR JUSTICES BE ATTORNEYS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. FLOOD.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ZEBROWSKI, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  YES, I'LL YIELD.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS,

                    SIR.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  SO, IT -- IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY THAT

                    TOWN AND VILLAGE JUSTICES OTHER THAN MAYBE THE RANDOM ARRAIGNMENT

                    HERE AND THERE, THEY'RE NOT TAKING ON FELONY WORK, IS IT --  THAT WOULD BE

                    CORRECT?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  ALL RIGHT.  YOU KNOW THAT, LIKE YOU

                    SAID, THIS IS A CENTURY-OLDS [SIC] LAW THAT WE'VE HAD IN PLACE.  AND IT'S

                    FAIR TO SAY THAT THE MOST -- THE HIGHEST CHARGES THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE

                    SEEING WOULD BASICALLY, IN ONE OF THESE COURTS, BE A MISDEMEANOR

                    CHARGE, YOU'RE NOT GONNA SEE ANYTHING GREATER THAN THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  CORRECT.  THEY CAN BE ARRAIGNED

                                         146



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FOR FELONIES AT TIMES.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  YEAH, THEY'RE ARRAIGNED AT FELONIES BUT

                    THEY'RE NOT -- THEY'RE NOT ADJUDICATING THE FELONIES?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THERE ARE, I THINK -- I BELIEVE THERE'S

                    NINE OTHER STATES IN THE COUNTRY THAT ALLOW, YOU KNOW, NON-LAW SCHOOL-

                    TRAINED OR NON -- NON-BAR-ADMITTED JUDGES TO ADJUDICATE MISDEMEANORS.

                    WOULD YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHO -- WHICH ANY OF THEM ARE?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  YEAH, NINE OUT OF 50; TEXAS,

                    ARIZONA, NEVADA, COLORADO, LOUISIANA, SOUTH CAROLINA AND

                    MISSISSIPPI.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  GREAT.  WHAT IS THE COMMON

                    DENOMINATOR BETWEEN ALL OF THOSE STATES AND NEW YORK?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  I DON'T KNOW.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  MANY OF -- ALL OF THOSE STATES IN EITHER

                    PART OR WHOLE HAVE EXTREMELY RURAL AREAS WITH VERY LOW POPULATION.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  ARE THERE OTHER STATES THAT HAVE

                    RURAL AREAS OR JUST THOSE?

                                 MR. FLOOD:  NO, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY OTHER STATES THAT

                    HAVE RURAL, THOSE -- BUT -- SO WHEN A NON-ATTORNEY IS ELECTED TO THE

                    BENCH, DO THEY SIMPLY JUST SHOW UP ON JANUARY 1ST WITH A GAVEL AND

                    SAY, HERE WE GO, OR IS THERE SOME TYPE OF TRAINING PROCEDURE THROUGH

                    THERE?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  NO, THERE'S A TRAINING PROCEDURE.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  RIGHT.  AND IT'S -- AND WHO -- DO YOU

                                         147



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    KNOW WHO ADMINISTERS THAT?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  OCA AND THE STATE MAGISTRATES

                    ASSOCIATION.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OKAY.  AND NOW, IN ORDER TO TAKE THE

                    BENCH A NON-ATTORNEY WOULD FIRST HAVE TO TAKE THAT AND COMPLETE A --

                    THEY NEED TO FILE WITH THEIR LOCAL CLERK'S OFFICE A CERTIFICATE COURSE

                    INDICATING THAT THEY'VE TAKEN THAT TEST, CORRECT?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THERE'S ALSO MORE REGULATION THROUGH

                    THAT, ISN'T THERE?  THEY DO HAVE -- SIMILAR TO CONTINUING LEGAL EDUCATION

                    THEY HAVE OTHER CLASSES THAT THEY HAVE TO TAKE, CORRECT?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  I THINK THAT'S THE MAIN TRAINING

                    THAT THEY HAVE TO DO.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  WELL, ACTUALLY UNDER THE STATE

                    MAGISTRATES ASSOCIATION TOWN JUSTICES MUST ALSO TAKE 12 HOURS EVERY

                    YEAR OF IN-CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION, AND NON-LAWYERS MUST ALSO PASS A TEST

                    ON TOP OF THAT INFORMATION.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  THEY HAVE TO DO 12 HOURS OF

                    TRAINING TO -- TO DISPENSE JUSTICE IN COURTS?

                                 MR. FLOOD:  AND THEY HAVE TO DO A WRITTEN

                    EXAMINATION, CORRECT.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  WOW.  YOU CAN SENSE MY

                    SARCASM, BUT 12 HOURS?

                                 MR. FLOOD:  YEAH, 12 HOURS AND PASS A WRITTEN

                    EXAMINATION.  AND AGAIN, YOU AND I BOTH WENT TO LAW SCHOOL --

                                         148



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  RIGHT.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  MOST OF THESE THINGS THAT COME IN ARE

                    TRAFFIC OFFENSES, THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, SMALL-TIME LITIGATION, LANDLORD-

                    TENANT.  WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, GREAT LEGAL MINDS HERE.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  IF YOU'RE SOMEONE GETTING

                    EVICTED IT'S NOT SMALL.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OR IF YOU'RE A LANDLORD TRYING TO EVICT,

                    I MEAN, THIS BODY MAKES IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.  WE GIVE THEM --

                    PEOPLE 18, 24 MONTHS.  SO, I MEAN --

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  ALSO SOMEBODY THAT SHOULD BE

                    ABLE TO DEPEND UPON SOMEONE UNDERSTANDING AND BEING TRAINED IN THE

                    LAW FROM THE BENCH.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OKAY.  NOW, ARE -- ONCE A NON-

                    ATTORNEY JUSTICE IS PUT ON THE BENCH, ARE THEY JUST THROWN OUT TO THE

                    WOLVES OR -- OR IS THERE SUPPORT SYSTEMS OUT THERE FOR THEM?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  WELL, OCA AND THE STATE

                    MAGISTRATES ASSOCIATION I THINK GIVES THEM SUPPORT.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  UM, ACTUALLY -- YEAH, SO OVER RECENT

                    YEARS THEY'VE MADE SUBSTANTIAL FINANCIAL AND MATERIAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO

                    HELP ALLEVIATE THE BURDEN.  SO WE DON'T SEE THIS -- YOU KNOW, I'M FROM

                    SUFFOLK COUNTY, NEW YORK.  THERE MAY BE A NON-APPOINTED -- THERE

                    MAY BE A NON-ATTORNEY JUDGE THERE SOMEWHERE.  I'VE NEVER CAME ACROSS

                    ONE.  I -- I DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S ONE OUT IN NASSAU, PROBABLY NOT IN THE

                    CITY, PROBABLY NOT IN UPPER WESTCHESTER.  BUT AS WE GO FURTHER WEST

                    AND WE GO FURTHER NORTH, POPULATIONS BECOME SMALLER, WE HAVE VILLAGES

                                         149



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF MAYBE 500 PEOPLE, 600 PEOPLE, WHERE YOU MAY NOT REALLY HAVE A

                    POOL OF LAWYERS THAT ARE EITHER WILLING OR ABLE TO SERVE AS JUSTICES.

                    WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE THEM DO?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THERE MUST BE

                    SOME LAWYERS BECAUSE THE FOLKS THAT REPRESENT PEOPLE BETWEEN --

                    BEFORE THESE JUSTICES HAVE TO BE LAWYERS.  SO I THINK THERE'S A

                    DISCONNECT, RIGHT?  THE PEOPLE THAT --

                                 MR. FLOOD:  WELL, NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE I'M AN

                    ATTORNEY, MY -- MY PRACTICE IS IN PORT JEFFERSON.  I CAN COME TAKE A

                    CLIENT IN ALBANY, BUT AN ALBANY ATTORNEY CAN'T BE A JUSTICE IN THE

                    VILLAGE OF PORT JEFF.  SO YOU MAY --

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  NO, MY POINT IS --

                                 MR. FLOOD:  -- YOU MAY HAVE A SMALL --

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  GENTLEMEN,

                    GENTLEMEN.  QUESTION, ANSWER, QUESTION, ANSWER.  LET HIM COMPLETE.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  MY APOLOGIES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  AND I APOLOGIZE AS WELL.  MY

                    POINT IS THE -- THE LAWYERS WHO PRACTICE IN THOSE COURTS HAVE TO BE

                    LAWYERS, RIGHT?  JUST BECAUSE IT'S A RURAL AREA DOESN'T MEAN THAT WELL,

                    WE DON'T HAVE LAWYERS, WE ALLOW LAY PEOPLE TO REPRESENT PEOPLE.  BUT

                    SOMEHOW WE HAVE THIS QUIRK WHERE THE PERSON THAT'S ACTUALLY -- THE

                    PERSON THAT'S ARGUING THE CASE MUST BE A LAWYER, BUT THE PERSON THAT'S

                    DECIDING THE CASE IS ALLOWED TO -- TO NOT BE A LAWYER.  SO IN THOSE RURAL

                    AREAS, I HAVE TO ASSUME THAT THERE ARE LAWYERS.  BUT IF SOMEHOW THERE

                                         150



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ARE NOT, AS I SAID TO START, THIS IS A COMPROMISE BILL AND THIS ALLOWS THE

                    MUNICIPALITY TO DO IT.  NOW IN ALL HONESTY, AS YOU MAY GATHER FROM MY

                    COMMENTS EXPLAINING THE BILL, I DON'T THINK THIS REALLY GOES FAR ENOUGH.

                    BUT WE ARE A SYSTEM OF COMPROMISES, AND SO THIS IS WHAT IS ON THE

                    FLOOR.  SO I DON'T -- I DON'T THINK IN THOSE SCENARIOS THAT THE LOCAL

                    GOVERNMENT WOULD OPT INTO THIS SYSTEM.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OKAY.  AND I CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR

                    POINT, BUT I -- I DO KNOW THEN -- YOU KNOW, OUR CONFERENCE, WE HAVE

                    SEEN SUBSTANTIAL OPPOSITION FROM THIS FROM THESE AREAS BECAUSE I KNOW,

                    YOU KNOW -- I KNOW YOU COME FROM AN AREA OF HIGH POPULATION, FAIRLY.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  FAIRLY HIGH, YEAH.  I MEAN, WELL,

                    IF YOU ASK SOMEONE IN MANHATTAN, NOT HIGH, BUT SOMEONE UPSTATE, YES,

                    HIGH.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  YES.  SO, BUT WHEN YOU GO -- AND LIKE

                    YOU SAID, AS -- AS AN ATTORNEY YOU CAN GO IN ANY COURT AND PRACTICE.

                    BUT NOT EVERY -- NOT EVERY VILLAGE HAS AN ABILITY TO LET AN OUTSIDE

                    JUSTICE COME IN.  I MEAN, I'VE PRACTICED ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT THAT

                    DOESN'T MEAN THAT I CAN GO AND SIT UP IN, YOU KNOW, ONONDAGA COUNTY

                    AS A VILLAGE JUSTICE.  I -- I DON'T -- I DON'T MEET THEIR, YOU KNOW, THEIR

                    RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS,

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  RIGHT.  UM --

                                 MR. FLOOD:  SO THOSE JUSTICES -- I UNDERSTAND YOUR

                    POINT, BUT --

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  SO TWO THINGS, IF -- IF I COULD.

                    ONE, I DON'T THINK IN ONONDAGA COUNTY OR WHATEVER OTHER COUNTY, IT'S

                                         151



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REALLY THE TOWNS AND THE VILLAGES, THAT THEY WOULD ADOPT THIS.  WE'RE

                    GIVING THEM THE OPTION.  BUT NUMBER TWO, WE HAVE ADOPTED BILLS FOR A

                    VARIETY OF VILLAGES THAT HAVE ALLOWED RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT

                    EXEMPTIONS SO THAT SOMEBODY FROM A -- AN ADJOINING -- AND EVEN

                    THOUGH I'M IN A -- A DOWNSTATE COUNTY, THERE ARE A COUPLE JUDGES THAT

                    ARE -- ARE NOT ATTORNEYS, AND WE ALSO HAVE A COUPLE OF VILLAGES THAT

                    HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THAT, GOTTEN SPECIAL LEGISLATION AND HAVE FOLKS.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT WOULD IT BE FAIR

                    TO SAY THAT IF YOU HAVE A VILLAGE ELECTION AND YOU HAVE PEOPLE RUNNING

                    FOR, YOU KNOW, VILLAGE JUSTICE OR TOWN JUSTICE NOT FROM THE AREA THAT

                    YOUR ELECTORATE MAY NOT HAVE THE BEST IDEA OF WHO THEY'RE ACTUALLY

                    VOTING FOR?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  WOULD THEY -- WOULD THEY KNOW

                    SOMEBODY FROM THE AREA BETTER THAN SOMEBODY OUTSIDE THE AREA,

                    PRESUMABLY?

                                 MR. FLOOD:  I WOULD -- I WOULD ASSUME IN A VILLAGE

                    OF 5- OR 600 THAT MOST PEOPLE KNOW EACH OTHER.  I MEAN, I KNOW MOST

                    PEOPLE I WENT TO SCHOOL WITH AND I WENT TO -- YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN A

                    MUCH BIGGER AREA.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  RIGHT.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  SO --

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  YEAH, THEY MIGHT KNOW THE

                    PERSON BETTER.  MAYBE THEY WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL WITH THE PERSON.  I'M

                    NOT SURE THAT'S THE CRITERIA FOR WHO SHOULD BE DISPENSING JUSTICE, BUT

                    THEY MIGHT KNOW THE PERSON BETTER.

                                         152



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. FLOOD:  I -- I UNDERSTAND THAT.  BUT, YOU KNOW,

                    WHEN YOU'RE VOTING FOR SOMEONE, USUALLY YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF WHO THEY

                    ARE, WHERE THEY ARE AS A PERSON.  MAYBE YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO KNOW

                    THEM.  MOST LOCAL -- MOST LOCAL ELECTIONS HAVE THAT SORT OF LOCAL FEEL

                    WHERE YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  YEAH.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  IN THIS SITUATION YOU MAY NOT.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE

                    PROBLEM, RIGHT?  THIS ISN'T SOMEBODY WHO'S, YOU KNOW, RUNNING THE

                    LOCAL PARKS AND THIS ISN'T SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, MAY BE DEALING

                    WITH LOCAL SANITATION.  THIS IS SOMEBODY MAKING DECISIONS ON PROPERTY,

                    ON LIBERTY FOR FOLKS IN A COURT SYSTEM.  THE FOLKS HAVE TO BE ADMITTED TO

                    THE BAR TO ARGUE BEFORE THEM.  I -- I DON'T THINK IT'S THE SAME AS OTHER

                    ELECTED MUNICIPAL POSITIONS.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  I CAN SEE PART OF YOUR POINT, BUT I ALSO

                    SEE THAT -- I MEAN, REGARDLESS OF WHAT POSITION IT IS, IF YOU HAVE AN IDEA

                    OF THE PERSON AND AN IDEA OF HOW THAT PERSON'S BEHAVIOR IS AND WHAT

                    THEIR MANNERISMS ARE OR HOW THEY ACT, YOU MIGHT HAVE A BETTER IDEA OF

                    WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE POSITION IS.  THAT'S JUST

                    ALL I'M SAYING.  I BELIEVE THIS ALSO BRINGS UP, HOWEVER, ANOTHER ISSUE

                    WITH THAT, IS THAT IF THIS VILLAGE OR COURT OR TOWN DECIDES TO ADOPT THESE

                    LAWS, THEY COULD ESSENTIALLY THEN APPOINT IN A SMALL DISTRICT, SAY THERE'S

                    ONLY ONE PERSON WITH THEIR HAND IN THE AIR, AND HIS TWO FRIENDS SIT ON

                    THE CITY COUNCIL OR THE TOWN VILLAGE BOARD.  THEY CAN ESSENTIALLY JUST

                    TAKE AWAY THAT CHOICE AND SAY, WELL, HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT'S QUALIFIED

                                         153



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FOR IT, HE'S GONNA BE IT.  IS THAT FAIR TO SAY COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN UNDER

                    THIS?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T -- YOU

                    DON'T HAVE AN IDEAL SITUATION.  AND SO IF YOU HAD A SCENARIO WHERE IT

                    WAS A NON-ATTORNEY OR AN ATTORNEY, I STILL THINK THAT ATTORNEY IS BETTER

                    TRAINED TO MAKE THE LEGAL DECISIONS NECESSARY IN A COURT SYSTEM.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THAT COULD BE TRUE.  I -- I ALSO THINK

                    THERE ARE OTHER JUDGES OUT THERE THAT STRING TOGETHER NONSENSE AND COME

                    UP WITH, I -- I DON'T KNOW, THEIR OWN DETERMINATIONS ON WHAT'S GUILTY

                    AND WHAT'S NOT.  THAT -- YOU KNOW, SO I -- I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK

                    WHEN MANY HAVE JUSTICE, IT NECESSARILY MEANS THAT SOMEONE WITH A LAW

                    DEGREE CAN, YOU KNOW, JUST LOOK AT THE STATUTE AND SAY, THIS IS THE LAW

                    AND THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GONNA UPHOLD COMPARED TO ONE THAT'S TRAINED.  I

                    THINK ON THE PART OF THAT PERSON WHO IS LITIGATING IT MIGHT HAVE A BETTER

                    UNDERSTANDING OF IT OR UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MAKE THE ARGUMENTS.

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  I -- I -- I HEAR YOU.  THERE'S

                    CERTAINLY FOLKS THAT COULD BE ADMITTED TO THE BAR THAT COULD RUN AFOUL OF

                    ETHICS OR ANYTHING ELSE.  BUT THAT'S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE

                    DATA, AND OVER THE PAST TEN YEARS 20 -- 20 PERCENT OF THE COMPLAINTS

                    RECEIVED BY THE JUDICIAL COMMISSION WERE AGAINST TOWN AND VILLAGE

                    JUSTICES, BUT 72 PERCENT OF THE PUBLIC DECISIONS INVOLVED THEM.  SO IT

                    WAS 120 OUT OF THE 167 PUBLIC DECISIONS AND 90 OF THOSE 120.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  OKAY.  I -- I DO UNDERSTAND THAT BUT --

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT WERE THE

                    NON-ATTORNEYS.

                                         154



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. FLOOD:  I UNDERSTAND THAT.  I -- I BELIEVE THERE'S

                    ALSO -- IN THE STATE THERE'S APPROXIMATELY 1,800 VILLAGE AND TOWN

                    JUSTICES, OF WHICH I THINK ABOUT 700 OF THEM ARE NON-ATTORNEY JUSTICES.

                    SO IF THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT, YOU'RE -- YOU'RE TAKING UP ABOUT, YOU KNOW,

                    A THIRD OR 60 PERCENT OR SO OR, YOU KNOW -- I'M SORRY, ABOUT 40 PERCENT

                    OF ALL THE JUSTICES OF THESE TOWN AND VILLAGE COURTS HAVE TO GO FIND AND

                    ELECT NEW JUDGES.  IS THE TIME FRAME OF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO WITH

                    THIS EVEN PRACTICAL?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  I THINK IT IS.  ONCE AGAIN, IT'S A

                    LOCAL OPTION.  SO I ACTUALLY THINK IF THIS PASSES AND GETS SIGNED INTO

                    LAW, IT WON'T GO AS FAR AS I WOULD LIKE IT, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK A LOT OF

                    THOSE JURISDICTIONS ARE GOING TO DO IT, BUT SOME MAY.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  ALL RIGHT.  WELL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR

                    QUESTIONS [SIC].

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL, PLEASE?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    FLOOD.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  YOU KNOW -- AND -- AND I DO VALUE MY

                    COLLEAGUE'S INPUT AND I DO THINK AT SOME POINT THAT THIS IS AN IMPERFECT

                    SYSTEM.  HOWEVER, I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE UNINTENDED

                    CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WITH THIS OF ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HAVE

                    A SHORTFALL OF JUDGES.  WHEN WE TALK ABOUT VILLAGE AND TOWN JUSTICES IN

                    VERY SMALL AREAS, VERY RURAL AREAS, YOU MAY NOT HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF

                    PEOPLE PUTTING THEIR HANDS UP AND SAYING, I WANT TO DO THIS, OR YOU MAY

                                         155



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR SOMEONE TO COME IN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF

                    THE SITUATION AND KIND OF LOCK DOWN THE COURTS FOREVER BECAUSE THEY'RE

                    THE ONLY ONES AVAILABLE TO DO THIS.  WE'VE HAD THIS SITUATION IN PLACE FOR

                    SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS.  I -- I JUST THINK THIS IS -- WE DON'T HAVE A REALLY

                    SERIOUS PROBLEM HERE.  I KNOW WHAT THE COUNSELOR SAID AND I'VE LOOKED

                    AT A LOT OF THESE COMPLAINTS.  MOST OF THEM ARE A WRONG APPLICATION OF

                    THE LAW, MAYBE OVERZEALOUS IN A BAIL PROCEEDING, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

                    MOST OF THOSE BAIL REFORM LAWS HAVE BEEN CHANGED AND COMPLETELY

                    TAKEN OUT OF THE HANDS OF JUDGES, SO THAT'S NOT EVEN AN ISSUE ANYMORE.

                    AND I -- I THINK WE, BY DOING THIS, COULD ACTUALLY BE LOOKING IN A

                    COUPLE YEARS TO COME BACK AND MAKE CHANGES BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF

                    AVAILABLE JUSTICES IN AN AREA, OR THE OVER -- THE ABUSE OF THE SYSTEM BY

                    BASICALLY LEAVING THESE SMALL VILLAGES AND TOWNS WITH LITTLE TO NO

                    CHOICE OF WHO THEY ELECT.

                                 FOR THIS REASON, I BELIEVE -- I -- I BELIEVE THIS BILL

                    SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DRAWING TABLE AND TINKER A LITTLE BIT MORE.  I -- I

                    DO APPRECIATE WHAT MY COLLEAGUE IS TRYING TO DO.  IT IS AN IMPERFECT

                    SYSTEM, I'LL BE THE FIRST ONE TO ADMIT IT.  BUT I THINK IF WE ROCK THE BOAT

                    TOO MUCH IT'S GONNA GET TOO DIFFICULT FOR LITIGANTS AND TOO DIFFICULT FOR

                    THE RURAL AND SMALL VILLAGES AND COMMUNITIES.  SO I'LL BE VOTING IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MS. BYRNES.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  THANK YOU.  I'D LIKE TO JUST BE HEARD

                    ON THE BILL.

                                         156



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  THANK YOU.  I'VE LISTENED FOR THE LAST

                    FEW MINUTES ABOUT A NUMBER OF THESE STATEMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE

                    ON THE FLOOR HERE, AND I MUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS A JUDGE IN THE

                    CITY OF ROCHESTER FOR TEN YEARS.  EVEN WHEN I WAS AN ASSISTANT DISTRICT

                    ATTORNEY ASSIGNED TO TOWN AND VILLAGE COURTS MANY DECADES AGO,

                    FREQUENTLY THEY WERE LAY JUDGES.  AND NOW WHERE I LIVE, WHICH IS IN

                    ONE OF THE MOST RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF OUR

                    JUDGES ARE LAY JUDGES.  I HAPPEN TO LIVE IN A TOWN AND A VILLAGE WHERE

                    ONE OF THE LAY JUDGES HAS BEEN THERE FOR OVER 30 YEARS.  HE'S ONE OF THE

                    MOST RESPECTED JUDGES IN THE -- IN THE COURT SYSTEM THROUGHOUT THE

                    STATE FOR THE MAGISTRATES.  IRONICALLY, THE OTHER ONE IS A LAW CLERK TO A

                    SUPREME COURT JUDGE WHO LIVES IN TOWN.  SO WE BOTH HAVE AN ATTORNEY

                    JUDGE AND WE HAVE LAY -- VERY EDUCATED LAY JUDGE.  WE HAVE NO

                    PROBLEMS WITH EITHER ONE OF THOSE GENTLEMEN.  YOU KNOW, THE -- THE

                    JUDGES THAT I'VE SEEN, BE THEY ATTORNEY JUDGES OR BE THEY NON-ATTORNEY

                    JUDGES, THEY TAKE THEIR JOBS SERIOUSLY, THEY TAKE THEIR TRAINING SERIOUSLY.

                    THEY HAVE ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGES FROM THE OFFICE OF COURT

                    ADMINISTRATION WHO OVERSEE THEM ALL THE TIME.  ALL OF THE

                    REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL OF THE COURT SYSTEMS INCLUDING AUDITS APPLY TO

                    THEM AS WELL.  THEY ARE OVERSEEN STRENUOUSLY BY THE OFFICE OF COURT

                    ADMINISTRATION.  THE MAGISTRATES ASSOCIATION ALSO OFFERS ROUTINELY ALL

                    OF THE INFORMATION IN THE WORLD THAT ANY MAGISTRATE NEEDS IN ORDER TO

                    HAVE -- EDUCATE THEMSELVES OR TO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ANY CASE THAT'S IN

                    FRONT OF THEM, SHOULD THE JUDGE BE THEY ATTORNEY OR NON-ATTORNEY HAVE

                                         157



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW TO HANDLE SOMETHING.

                                 SO I REALLY THINK THAT WHILE THIS IS, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,

                    "GIVING TOWNS AND VILLAGES THE OPTION," IT CLEARLY IS STEP ONE.  AS THE

                    SPONSOR SAID, HE HAD OTHER MORE STRENUOUS BILLS, THIS WAS THE

                    COMPROMISE FOR NOW.  SO WE KNOW THERE'S MORE COMING, WE KNOW THAT

                    LAY JUDGES ARE BEING TARGETED.  BUT THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JOB,

                    ESPECIALLY IN OUR RURAL AREAS.  AND I DO WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

                    THAT, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WITH THE NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS THAT ARE NOW

                    WORKING FOR PUBLIC DEFENDERS, CONFLICT DEFENDERS, OUR COUNTY LAW

                    DEPARTMENTS FOR SOCIAL SERVICES, THE VAST MAJORITY OF ALL OF THE

                    ATTORNEYS THAT EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS THE LAW CLERK TO A

                    COUNTY COURT JUDGE IN LIVINGSTON COUNTY, ALL -- THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE

                    ATTORNEYS THAT WERE IN PRIVATE PRACTICE ARE -- ARE NOW ALL WORKING FOR

                    THE GOVERNMENT.  THEY'VE ALL GOTTEN JOBS WITH THE SYSTEM BECAUSE WE

                    HAVE CREATED SO MANY JOBS WITH THE SYSTEMS, INCLUDING, I WOULD POINT

                    OUT, PUBLIC DEFENDERS WHO ARE PRESENT AT EVERY ARRAIGNMENT IN ALL OF

                    THESE TOWN AND VILLAGE COURTS.  THESE JUDGES AREN'T GETTING UP IN THE

                    MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND MAKING WILLY-NILLY DECISIONS.  THEY ARE THERE

                    ALREADY WITH ATTORNEYS FOR THE DEFENDANTS IN PERSON.  SO THIS IS NOT AN

                    UNEDUCATED GROUP OF PEOPLE.  SO WE HAVE A VERY SMALL POOL OF

                    ATTORNEYS.  MANY OF THE TOWNS AND VILLAGES WHO MAY HAVE ONLY 1-, 2-

                    OR 3,000 -- 3,000 RESIDENTS DO NOT -- DO NOT HAVE ATTORNEYS WHO LIVE IN

                    THEIR TOWNS OR VILLAGES.  AND THAT IS TRUE.  AND EVEN IN MY VILLAGE WE

                    HAVE NO LAWYER WHO HAS A SHINGLE OUT PRACTICING LAW IN MY TOWN.

                    THERE ARE NONE ANYMORE, THEY'RE ALL WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT.  THE

                                         158



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FEW THAT ARE OUT THERE WOULD HAVE A LOT OF CONFLICTS.  IF THEY TRIED TO BE

                    A JUDGE, THEN THEY HAVE CONFLICTS WHEN THEY WOULD GO TO REPRESENT

                    SOMEBODY IN A VILLAGE COURT.  SO A LOT OF ATTORNEYS DON'T WANT TO BE

                    JUDGES BECAUSE IT PRESENTS THEM IN A CONFLICT WHERE THEN THEY CAN'T

                    PERFORM THEIR JOBS IN OTHER WAYS.  SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS AS A

                    BROADER SPECTRUM.  ALL IN ALL, I REALLY THINK THEY DO A GOOD JOB.  IT

                    DISTURBS ME TO HEAR HOW THIS BODY THINKS SO LITTLE OF PEOPLE THAT INVEST

                    IN THEIR JOBS.  WE'VE ALL COME HERE FROM DIFFERENT JOBS IN DIFFERENT

                    WAYS, YET EACH OF US BELIEVES WE'RE DOING OUR JOB RIGHT AND WE'RE DOING

                    IT THE RIGHT WAY FOR OUR CONSTITUENTS.  WHY SHOULD WE CAST DISPERSIONS

                    ON OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THEIR JOBS?

                                 ALL I WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH IS OBVIOUSLY THIS BILL IS

                    HERE IS BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE POST -- OR IT'S GOING TO BE VOTED ON AND

                    IT'S GONNA GET PASSED.  I KNOW THAT.  BUT I THINK IT'S UNFAIR AND IT'S SAD

                    HOW MUCH YOU ATTACK THESE JUDGES, MANY OF WHOM HAVE SPENT

                    COUNTLESS HOURS AND COUNTLESS DECADES MAKING SURE THAT THEY WERE

                    DOING THEIR JOB CORRECTLY.  THANK YOU.  I'M VOTING NO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD

                    FOR ONE QUESTION, PLEASE?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ZEBROWSKI, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  OF COURSE I YIELD.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ZEBROWSKI

                    YIELDS.

                                         159



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  WOULD -- WOULD THIS BILL

                    BE A MANDATE THAT TOWNS AND VILLAGES WOULD HAVE TO DECIDE TO CHANGE

                    THE STATUS OF THEIR JUDGES' EDUCATION?

                                 MR. ZEBROWSKI:  NO, IT WOULD BE AT THEIR OPTION.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  OKAY.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS.  THOSE WHO WISH TO SUPPORT IT

                    CAN CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, THE

                    DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION.  IF

                    THOSE -- SOMEONE WOULD LIKE TO BE AN EXCEPTION THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE

                    TO VOTE AT THEIR SEATS.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MS. WALLACE TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. WALLACE:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

                    GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  I REPRESENT A TOWN THAT

                                         160



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HAS ALMOST 90,000 RESIDENTS, AND YET BOTH OF THE JUDGES IN THAT TOWN DO

                    NOT HOLD LAW DEGREES.  NOTHING ABOUT THIS BILL IS GOING TO FORCE THAT

                    TOWN TO CHANGE THAT.  THIS BILL JUST SAYS THE TOWN CAN, IF IT CHOOSES TO,

                    CAN MANDATE IT.  BUT IT REALLY IS UP TO THE TOWN ITSELF.  IT IS A LOCAL

                    CONTROL BILL.  THIS IS NOT A BILL WHERE THE STATE IS SAYING YOU MUST DO

                    THIS.  I DO FEEL COMPELLED TO STAND UP, THOUGH, BECAUSE I VEHEMENTLY

                    DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE DURING THIS

                    DEBATE ABOUT THE EDUCATION OF THE JUDGES.  TO SOMEHOW EQUATE 12

                    HOURS OF TRAINING TO THREE YEARS IN LAW SCHOOL AND PASSING THE BAR EXAM

                    IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.  TWELVE HOURS -- A STUDENT IN LAW SCHOOL IS --

                    IS -- IN ONE WEEK DOES 12 HOURS OF TRAINING.

                                 SO, YOU KNOW, I REALLY THINK THAT THIS IS A BILL THAT IS

                    ABOUT LOCAL CONTROL AND -- BUT I ALSO THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE

                    ENCOURAGING MUNICIPALITIES TO MAN -- TO ENCOURAGE LAW -- LAWYERS TO

                    HAVE THESE POSITIONS BECAUSE WE KNOW WHEN SOMEBODY GOES BEFORE A

                    JUDGE IN A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING, THE PROSECUTION HAS TO BE A LAWYER AND

                    THE PERSON REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT HAS TO BE A LAWYER.  AND IT'S

                    KIND OF RIDICULOUS THAT THE JUDGES THEMSELVES DON'T HAVE TO BE LAWYERS.

                    SO I DO SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION WHICH AGAIN, DOES NOT FORCE

                    MUNICIPALITIES TO DO ANYTHING, IT JUST GIVES THEM THE OPTION.

                                 THANK YOU, AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. WALLACE IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. EACHUS TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR

                                         161



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ALLOWING ME TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS I FIND

                    OUT THAT I'M IN THE MINORITY HERE IN THIS ASSEMBLY BECAUSE I AM NOT A

                    LAWYER.  AND I RESPECT EVERY LAWYER THAT SITS HERE IN THIS HOUSE,

                    BECAUSE I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT LAWYERS HAVE HAD MUCH BETTER

                    TRAINING, MUCH BETTER SCHOOLING, AND THAT, ONE, THEY UNDERSTAND THE LAW

                    MUCH BETTER THAN I WOULD, AND NUMBER TWO, THEY ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND

                    THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BETTER THAN I DO.  BECAUSE ANY TIME WE GET THESE

                    BILLS, I CAN HARDLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IN THE LEGALESE

                    LANGUAGE.  AND SO I PERSONALLY WOULD LIKE SOMEBODY SITTING ON THE

                    BENCH WHO IS GOING TO MAKE A JUDGMENT ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT I MIGHT

                    HAVE, HAVING MORE BACKING, MORE -- EXCUSE ME, EDUCATION, MORE

                    EXPERIENCE IN THIS THAN JUST AN AVERAGE, YOU KNOW, PERSON WHO WE

                    MIGHT PICK OFF THE STREET.  I ALSO -- I -- I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN ANYBODY

                    ELSE ON THIS FLOOR.  I HAVE A MASTER'S, BUT NOT IN LAW.  AND I ALSO DON'T

                    UNDERSTAND WHERE THE WORD "OPTION" IS LOST ON SOME OF THESE FOLKS,

                    BECAUSE AS MY COLLEAGUE JUST MENTIONED, THIS IS NOT "SHALL" OR "WILL" OR

                    ANYTHING ELSE LIKE THAT.

                                 SO IN THOSE TERMS I AM GLAD TO -- AND I THANK THE

                    SPONSOR FOR DOING THIS, I AM GLAD TO VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. EACHUS IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. STECK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. STECK:  THIS DEBATE REMINDED ME OF WHEN I

                    WAS A VERY YOUNG LAWYER AND ONE OF THE FIRST CASES I HAD IN COURT WAS

                    IN FRONT OF A NON-LAWYER JUDGE IN A TOWN WHICH CERTAINLY HAD PLENTY OF

                                         162



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LAWYERS.  AND THE NON-LAWYER JUDGE ENFORCED A RESTRICTIVE COVENANT

                    AGAINST AN AEROBICS INSTRUCTOR, PROHIBITING HER FROM GIVING CLASSES AT A

                    LOCAL SCHOOL.  THEN I HAD ANOTHER ONE WHERE THE TOWN JUSTICE, ANOTHER

                    NON-LAWYER, WENT TO THE LOCAL PAPER AND ATTACKED THE DEFENDANT IN THE

                    CASE AND WE HAD TO SUE THE JUDGE AND THANKFULLY THE JUDGE WAS

                    REPRESENTED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE AND WE WERE ABLE TO

                    RESOLVE THE MATTER.

                                 BUT FOR -- BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE, I VOTE IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. STECK IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 14, RULES REPORT NO. 246, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A06889-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 246, LAVINE, WALLACE, KIM, STECK, HEVESI, SIMON,

                    ZEBROWSKI, SIMONE, DINOWITZ, BURGOS.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE CIVIL

                    PRACTICE LAW AND RULES, IN RELATION TO ARBITRATION.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MR. LAVINE.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  OF COURSE.  SO, THIS BILL REVISES

                    ARBITRATION RULES CONCERNING THE LOCATION OF MULTIPLE-PARTY ARBITRATION,

                    THE PROCEDURE FOR SERVING NOTICE OF INTENTION TO ARBITRATE, THE RIGHT TO

                    LEGAL REPRESENTATION IN ARBITRATION, AND REGULATIONS REGARDING FEES,

                                         163



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    EXPENSES AND BREACHES IN EMPLOYMENT OR CONSUMER ARBITRATION.  TO BE

                    A LITTLE MORE SPECIFIC, IT WOULD ALLOW ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS TO OCCUR

                    IN ANY COURT AND COUNTY WHERE ANY OF THE PARTIES SEEKING ARBITRATION

                    RESIDE, DO BUSINESS OR WHERE THE ARBITRATION WAS HELD OR IS PENDING.  IT

                    WOULD ADDRESS FEES, EXPENSES AND BREACHES OF ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS

                    IN EMPLOYMENT OR CONSUMER ARBITRATION, INCLUDING PROVISIONS FOR

                    PAYMENT OF FEES AND COSTS, CONSEQUENCES OF NONPAYMENT, SANCTIONS FOR

                    BREACHES AND PROCEDURES FOR CONTINUING OR WITHDRAWING FROM

                    ARBITRATION.  THE IDEA HERE IS TO PROTECT NEW YORK STATE'S CONSUMERS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  WOULD THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. LAVINE, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  OF COURSE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. LAVINE YIELDS,

                    SIR.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, MR. LAVINE.  YOU

                    MENTIONED A COUPLE OF WAYS THIS CHANGES THE CURRENT LAW.  IF I COULD,

                    I'D LIKE TO JUST KIND OF WALK THROUGH THOSE SO WE UNDERSTAND THE NATURE

                    AND THE EXTENT OF THE CHANGES.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  SO WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, CAN I JUST

                    MENTION SOMETHING?

                                 MR. GOODELL:  CERTAINLY.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  WE HAVE WORKED TOGETHER FOR MANY

                                         164



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    YEARS, AND YOU HAVE BEEN A GREAT LEGISLATOR AND YOU ARE A GREAT COUNTRY

                    LAWYER.  AND I ALSO WANT TO MENTION ONE OTHER THING, AND I THINK YOU

                    AND I, I'M ALMOST POSITIVE, ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO ARE

                    GONNA KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.  BUT IN A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION

                    SOME YEARS AGO, YOU REALLY, REALLY DID WHAT WAS RIGHT IN A VERY DIFFICULT

                    INTERPERSONAL SITUATION, AND YOU STOOD VERY TALL TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE

                    -- THE EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE ON OUR STAFF, AND I THANK YOU FOR

                    THAT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WELL, THANK YOU FOR THOSE NICE

                    COMMENTS.  I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT --

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 BUT I AM -- I'M MOST HOPEFUL THAT AT LEAST YOU KNOW

                    WHAT THIS BILL IS ABOUT.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 THANK YOU, MR. LAVINE.  YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE'S A

                    CHANGE IN VENUE OR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING THE LAWSUIT.  WHAT IS THE

                    CURRENT LAW AND HOW DOES THAT COMPARE WITH WHAT THIS PROVIDES?  I

                    HAVE IN FRONT OF ME WHAT THIS PROVIDES, THIS PROVIDES THAT YOU CAN

                    BRING AN ACTION IN ANY LOCATION WHERE ANY OF THE PARTIES RESIDE.  WHAT'S

                    THE CURRENT LAW?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  WELL, AS OPPOSED TO THE PRESENT

                    SYSTEM, THE CURRENT SYSTEM IN WHICH THE PLACES WHERE SOMEBODY CAN

                    ARBITRATE OR BEGIN A LAWSUIT ARE SPECIFIED IN THE CONTRACTUAL

                    RELATIONSHIP.  WE NOW, AS YOU WELL KNOW, IN -- IN LINES 3 TO 6 OF THE

                    BILL PROVIDE THAT WHERE THERE ARE MULTIPLE PARTIES WHO ARE SEEKING

                                         165



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ARBITRATION AGAINST THE SAME PARTY OR PARTIES, THE PROCEEDING MAY BE

                    BROUGHT IN ANY COURT AND COUNTY WHERE ANY OF THE PARTIES SEEKING

                    ARBITRATION RESIDE OR ARE DOING BUSINESS OR WHERE THE ARBITRATION, IF IT'S

                    GOING ON, WAS HELD OR IS PENDING.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO UNDER THE CURRENT LAW THE

                    ARBITRATION HAS TO BE BROUGHT WHERE THE PARTIES SPECIFY BY CONTRACT?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  WELL, WHERE THE -- THE PARTY THAT DREW

                    THE -- DREW THE CONTRACT SPECIFIED.  IT'S -- THE PARTIES DRAWING THE

                    CONTRACT ARE GENERALLY NOT GOING TO PROVIDE FOR A VENUE TO BE SET IN A --

                    IN A PLACE THAT'S NOT CONVENIENT TO THE PARTY DRAWING THE CONTRACT.  I'M

                    SURE WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU'RE BEING A GOOD LAWYER DRAW CONTRACTS

                    DEALING WITH THESE ARBITRATION ISSUES, YOU MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S THE

                    CASE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, WE HONOR THOSE VENUE

                    PROVISIONS AND CONTRACTS OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF ARBITRATION, CORRECT?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  GENERALLY SPEAKING, YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND OF COURSE YOU OFTEN SEE THEM

                    IN CONTRACTS INVOLVING NATIONAL COMPANIES.  FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU RENT A

                    CAR, THEY'LL SAY IF YOU WANT TO BRING A LAWSUIT REGARDING THIS AGREEMENT

                    OR INSURANCE CONTRACTS OR STUDENT LOAN AGREEMENTS, IT SPECIFIES WHERE

                    THE LAWSUIT HAS TO BE COMMENCED, CORRECT?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  IN THOSE CONTRACTS, VERY OFTEN REFERRED

                    TO AS ADHESION CONTRACTS WHERE PARTIES DON'T HAVE EQUAL BARGAINING

                    POWER, THAT IS CERTAINLY THE CASE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW IRONICALLY, WHEN I BORROWED

                                         166



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    MONEY FOR MY STUDENT LOAN GOING TO LAW SCHOOL, THE STANDARD

                    PREPRINTED CONTRACT, AS YOU POINT OUT, IT WAS A STANDARD PREPRINTED

                    CONTRACT PROVIDED FOR VENUE IN THE CITY OF ALBANY.  AND OF COURSE

                    BACK THEN, BEING YOUNGER AND SMARTER, I HAD NO INTENTIONS WHATSOEVER

                    OF EVER GOING TO ALBANY.  SO I CROSSED IT OUT.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  (LAUGHING)  LIFE IS FULL OF IRONY, ISN'T

                    IT, MR. GOODELL?

                                 MR. GOODELL:  IT SURE IS.  SO I CROSSED IT OUT AND

                    PUT CHAUTAUQUA.  THEY STILL GAVE ME THE LOAN, AS LONG AS I PAID THE

                    INTEREST THEY WERE HAPPY.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  BUT EVEN THEN, BEFORE LAW SCHOOL,

                    YOU HAD THE MAKINGS OF A GOOD LAWYER.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO -- SO WE'RE STILL ALLOWING THOSE

                    CONTRACT PROVISIONS TO APPLY WHEN IT COMES TO A LAWSUIT, BUT NOT WHEN

                    IT COMES TO ARBITRATION?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  NOT WHEN IT COMES TO ARBITRATION OR

                    LAWSUITS THAT STEM FROM ARBITRATION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THEN SECOND, THE SECOND AREA YOU

                    TALKED A LOT ABOUT RELATED TO FEES.  NOW, OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF TIMES AN

                    ARBITRATION AGREEMENT WILL SPECIFY WHO PAYS WHAT FEES.  SO IF -- IT'S NOT

                    UNCOMMON IF YOU INITIATE THE ARBITRATION, YOU MIGHT PAY THE INITIATION

                    FEE TO KICK IT OFF.  OFTENTIMES THEY SPLIT THE COST OF THE ARBITRATION,

                    SOMETIMES THEY AWARD IT TO THE WINNING PARTY.  THAT -- ALL THOSE

                    CONTRACTUAL PROVISIONS ARE CHANGED OR OVERRIDDEN BY THIS STATUTE.  THIS

                    STATUTE PROVIDES THAT THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE CONTRACT PAYS ALL THOSE

                                         167



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FEES AND EXPENSES, CORRECT?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  AND THAT'S AT LINE 29 OF PAGE 2.  IT'S

                    NOT A LENGTHY BILL, BY THE WAY.  IT'S ABOUT 100 -- AS YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT

                    170 LINES, AND MOST OF THEM, OR AT LEAST HALF OF THEM ARE DUPLICATIVE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO EVEN IF THE PARTY WHO DRAFTED

                    THE AGREEMENT WINS THE ARBITRATION, THE PARTY WHO DRAFTED THE

                    AGREEMENT HAS TO PAY ALL OF THE ARBITRATION EXPENSES?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  WELL, THIS SAYS THE DRAFTING PARTY

                    SHALL PAY CERTAIN FEES AND COSTS BEFORE THE ARBITRATION CAN PROCEED.  IF

                    THE FEES OR COSTS ARE -- ARE NOT PAID, THEN THERE'S BIG TROUBLE FOR THE

                    PARTY DRAFTING THE -- THE CONTRACT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND IF THE DRAFTING PARTY WINS THE

                    ARBITRATION, DOES THE DRAFTING PARTY GET REIMBURSED FOR THOSE FEES?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  THAT -- LET ME GIVE YOU A VERY

                    UN-LAWYERLY ANSWER.  I'M NOT 100 PERCENT SURE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, BUT

                    THIS BILL DOESN'T, I DON'T THINK, ADDRESS THAT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I SEE.  OKAY.  THEN THIS BILL ADDS A

                    SERIES OF SANCTIONS.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND ALL THOSE SANCTIONS APPLY JUST

                    TO THE DRAFTER OF THE AGREEMENT; IS THAT CORRECT?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  YES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  I HAVE NO OTHER

                    QUESTIONS.  AGAIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. LAVINE.

                                 ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                         168



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  OUR COURTS HAVE

                    REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT THAT ARBITRATION IS OFTEN A VERY FAST AND EFFICIENT

                    WAY, OFTEN MUCH FASTER AND MORE EFFICIENT AND LESS EXPENSIVE THAN THE

                    COURT SYSTEM ITSELF.  AND SO WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY IN NEW YORK STATE

                    OF SUPPORTING ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY

                    THEY TEND TO BE VERY MUCH CONSUMER-FRIENDLY.  THEY'RE ALSO BUSINESS-

                    FRIENDLY BECAUSE NO BUSINESS WANTS TO BE TIED UP IN COURT.  AND SO IT

                    PROVIDES A FAST, EFFICIENT, COST-EFFECTIVE WAY TO RESOLVE DISPUTES.  BUT

                    IT'S NOT JUST NEW YORK STATE THAT FAVORS ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS, IT'S NOT

                    JUST OUR COURT SYSTEM OR OUR COURT OF APPEALS.  ARBITRATION AGREEMENTS

                    ARE FAVORED ON A NATIONAL LEVEL AND, IN FACT, THERE'S A NATIONAL FEDERAL

                    LAW DEALING WITH ARBITRATION.  AND THE CONGRESS FELT SO STRONGLY IN

                    FAVOR OF ARBITRATION, THEY ACTUALLY PROVIDE THAT STATES DON'T HAVE THE

                    POWER TO IMPLEMENT ARBITRATION PROCEDURES THAT IMPACT THE FEDERAL --

                    FEDERAL ARBITRATION LAW.  SO AS MY COLLEAGUE POINTS OUT, OFTENTIMES

                    THESE ARBITRATION PROVISIONS ARE CONTAINED IN INSURANCE CONTRACTS OR

                    MAYBE IF YOU RENT A CAR OR YOU BORROW MONEY, AND THEY'RE ALL DESIGNED

                    FOR THE BENEFIT OF BOTH PARTIES.  AND LIKE ANY CONTRACT, INCLUDING THE

                    ONE I SIGNED BEFORE I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, YEAH, THE CONSUMER CAN

                    ALWAYS CROSS IT OUT.  RARELY DO THEY EVER READ IT, MUCH LESS CHANGE IT,

                    BUT IT'S A CONTRACT, AND LIKE EVERY OTHER CONTRACT IT'S ENTITLED TO BE

                    ENFORCED.  AND, IN FACT, THE U.S. CONSTITUTION SAYS WE, AS A LEGISLATURE,

                    DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO IMPAIR THE VALIDITY OF AN EXISTING CONTRACT.

                    SO WHAT'S THIS DO?  THIS BILL SAYS THAT LET'S SAY YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY

                                         169



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND YOU SAY ANY ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS HAVE TO BE DONE IN ALBANY, AS

                    AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOUR CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS ARE.

                    YOU SELL INSURANCE POLICIES THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NEW YORK.  UNDER

                    THIS THEY CAN BRING AN ARBITRATION PROCEEDING IN ANY PLACE IN THE STATE

                    OF NEW YORK.

                                 LET ME GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE.  LET'S SAY YOU RENT

                    A CAR IN CLEVELAND BECAUSE YOU WANT TO DRIVE HOME.  I'M NOT SURE THAT

                    AGREEMENT WOULD BE SUBJECT TO THIS, BUT IF SO, YOU CAN BRING A LAWSUIT

                    IN CLEVELAND.  OR LET'S SAY IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.  YOU RENT A CAR IN NEW

                    YORK AND YOU DRIVE IT TO FLORIDA.  THIS BILL PURPORTS TO GIVE YOU

                    STANDING TO SUE THE COMPANY IN FLORIDA OR BRING AN ARBITRATION IN

                    FLORIDA EVEN THOUGH THE COMPANY DOESN'T HAVE ANY PRESENCE THERE

                    NEVER CONSENTED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF ARBITRATION THERE.

                                 BUT THE MOST ANTI-ARBITRATION PROVISION IN THIS IS THE

                    FACT THAT THE COMPANY THAT HAS THE ARBITRATION CLAUSE IN THEIR CONTRACT

                    HAS TO PAY THE COSTS FOR ANY ARBITRATION BROUGHT AGAINST IT.  NOW, THINK

                    ABOUT THAT.  WE'RE SAYING TO EVERY BUSINESS IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK

                    THAT USES AN ARBITRATION CLAUSE IN THEIR LOAN DOCUMENTS OR ANYWHERE

                    ELSE THAT IF SOMEONE BRINGS AN ACTION AGAINST THEM THEY HAVE TO PAY THE

                    COSTS OF SOMEONE BRINGING AN ACTION AGAINST THEM.  AND AS MY

                    COLLEAGUE POINTED OUT, IF THEY WIN, THEY DON'T GET IT BACK.  SO THIS PUTS

                    THE ENTIRE COST AND BURDEN ON THE COMPANIES THAT HAVE THE CONTRACT,

                    EVEN IF THEY WIN AND THAT'S JUST SIMPLY UNFAIR.

                                 SO MY FRIENDS, I DON'T KNOW WHY WE HAVE THIS

                    HOSTILITY TOWARD ARBITRATION.  MOST OF THE ARBITRATION CONTRACTS I'VE SEEN

                                         170



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SAY THAT THE PARTIES SPLIT THE COST.  SOME OF THEM SAY THE WINNING PARTY

                    PAYS.  THIS, BY LAW, SAYS THAT THE COMPANY PAYS UP FRONT EVEN IF THERE'S

                    NO BASIS FOR THE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF THEY WIN 100 PERCENT, IT'S AN

                    OBLIGATION ON THE COMPANY AND IT'S ONE MORE WAY FOR NEW YORK TO SAY

                    TO ALL OF OUR BUSINESSES WHO PAY ALL OF OUR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES WHO

                    ARE STRUGGLING TO MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL HERE IN NEW YORK THAT, WE ARE

                    RAISING YOUR COST OF DOING BUSINESS AND WE DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE RIGHT OR

                    WRONG, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PAYING MORE IF YOU HAVE AN ARBITRATION

                    AGREEMENT AND ANYONE BRINGS AN ACTION AGAINST YOU EVEN IF THEY'RE

                    WRONG.  THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I FEEL COMFORTABLE SUPPORTING AND I HOPE

                    YOU DON'T EITHER.

                                 THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED, THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT SHOULD

                    CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, THE

                    MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF THIS PIECE OF

                    LEGISLATION.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                         171



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER, FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO INTERRUPT OUR PROCEEDINGS BRIEFLY TO

                    MAKE AN INTRODUCTION FOR OUR COLLEAGUE AILEEN GUNTHER.  SHE HAS

                    GUESTS IN THE CHAMBERS; JOE ANDRE, TAMMY ANDRE AND JACK ANDRE.

                    AND THE ANDRE FAMILY IS FROM WALLKILL, NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  CERTAINLY.  ON BEHALF

                    OF MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, MRS. (AUDIO CUTS OUT) GUNTHER, THE SPEAKER

                    AND ALL THE MEMBERS, WE WELCOME THE ANDRE FAMILY HERE TO THE NEW

                    YORK STATE ASSEMBLY, EXTEND TO YOU THE PRIVILEGES OF THE FLOOR.  OUR

                    THANKS FOR SPENDING THIS DAY WITH US AND SPENDING SOME TIME WITH

                    MRS. GUNTHER, KEEPING HER COMPANY AS WE CLOSE THE LEGISLATIVE

                    SESSION IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.  HOPE YOU'VE HAD A GREAT TRIP, HOPE

                    YOU ENJOY THE SUMMER.  GOOD TO SEE YOU.

                                 (APPLAUSE)

                                 PAGE 14, RULES REPORT NO. 254, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  SENATE NO. S07807-A, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 254, SENATOR SERRANO (FAHY, THIELE, SEAWRIGHT, LUNSFORD, LUCAS,

                    SHIMSKY, MCDONALD, SIMON, TAPIA, SANTABARBARA, BORES, KELLES,

                    DESTEFANO, SHRESTHA--A08274A).  AN ACT TO AMEND THE PARKS,

                                         172



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    RECREATION AND HISTORIC PRESERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING

                    STANDARDS FOR TRAIL CLOSURES ON THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 THIS BILL DOES TWO ITEMS.  FIRST, IT MAKES IT CLEAR THAT

                    IF PORTIONS OF THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL ARE CLOSED FOR ANY REASON, THE

                    OFFICE OF PARKS AND RECREATION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR COMING UP WITH THE

                    DETOUR.  AS YOU ALL KNOW, THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL IS A GREAT, GREAT ASSET.

                    IT CROSSES BOTH PUBLICALLY-OWNED PROPERTY, AS WELL AS PRIVATELY-OWNED

                    PROPERTY, AND FROM TIME TO TIME BECAUSE OF A STORM OR WHATEVER, THEY

                    HAVE TO CLOSE A SECTION OF THE TRAIL.  THIS MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IF THEY

                    CLOSE A SECTION OF TRAIL, INCLUDING A SECTION THAT CROSSES PRIVATE LAND,

                    NOT THE PRIVATE LANDOWNER, BUT THE STATE OFFICE OF PARKS AND

                    RECREATION WILL ARRANGE FOR A DETOUR; GREAT CHANGE.

                                 MY CONCERN ON THIS IS IT HAS A SECOND PROVISION, AND

                    THE SECOND PROVISION SAYS THE OWNER, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE A PRIVATE

                    OWNER, THE OWNER OF ANY SEGMENT OF THE TRAIL DESIGNATED AS A PORTION OF

                    THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL SHALL ENSURE THAT SUCH SEGMENT OF TRAIL REMAINS

                    OPEN WHEN PRACTICAL.  WELL, AS IS OFTEN THE CASE WITH OUR TRAIL SYSTEM,

                    WE OFTEN GET RIGHTS OR EASEMENTS TO CROSS PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND THIS BILL

                    IMPOSES A STATUTORY OBLIGATION ON THAT PRIVATE OWNER WHO MAY HAVE

                    GRACIOUSLY ALLOWED US TO USE THEIR LAND FOR THIS TRAIL TO NOW MAINTAIN IT.

                                 AND SO IT'S GREAT WE'RE RELIEVING THE PRIVATE OWNERS OF

                    AN OBLIGATION TO COME UP WITH A DETOUR, BUT IT'S -- MY CONCERN IS BY

                                         173



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IMPOSING A STATUTORY OBLIGATION ON MAINTENANCE, WE MAY INADVERTENTLY

                    DISCOURAGE PRIVATE OWNERS FOR MAKING THEIR LAND AVAILABLE FOR A GREAT

                    ASSET LIKE THE TRAIL.  AND SO SOME OF MY MEMBERS WILL WANT TO VOTE YES

                    BECAUSE WE LIFT THAT BURDEN OF COMING UP WITH A DETOUR, AND OTHERS

                    MAY WANT TO VOTE NO BECAUSE WE IMPOSE A STATUTORY DUTY ON A PRIVATE

                    OWNER TO MAINTAIN THE TRAIL.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  MS. FAHY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL AS

                    WELL.  THE EMPIRE STATE TRAIL IS -- HAS BECOME QUITE AN ECONOMIC

                    ENGINE OF TOURISM HERE IN THIS STATE.  IT WAS JUST LAUNCHED IN 2017, YET

                    IT'S ALL -- IT IS THE LONGEST SINGLE-STATE MULTI-USE TRAIL IN THE NATION, 750

                    MILES.  IT'S NOW UP TO EIGHT MILLION VISITORS PER YEAR, EIGHT MILLION

                    VISITORS AND GENERATING $274 MILLION IN -- IN ECONOMIC TOURISM ACTIVITY

                    PER YEAR; IT'S QUITE A SUCCESS.

                                 HOWEVER, WHEN THE TRAIL HAS BEEN CLOSED, AND WE'VE

                    SEEN A COUPLE OF INCIDENCES OF THAT, WHICH I'LL BE HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT.

                    ONE WAS AT THE FLOODS -- THE DEVASTATING FLOODS JUST A YEAR-AND-A-HALF

                    AGO IN DUTCHESS COUNTY, A YEAR-AND-A-HALF AGO HERE WHEN THE DUNN

                    MEMORIAL BRIDGE WAS OUT, THERE'S A FEW PLACES WHERE WE'VE HAD

                    CLOSURES WITH ABSOLUTELY NO NOTIFICATION.  WE HAVE ONLY SIX, ONLY SIX

                    PRIVATE ENTITIES THAT OWN PARTS OF THIS TRAIL.  ALL WE ARE REQUIRING OF

                    THOSE PRIVATE ENTITIES IS THAT THEY NOTIFY THE COMMISSIONER OF PARKS,

                    NOTIFY THE COMMISSIONER.  THE COMMISSIONER THEN WILL POST THE DETOUR

                    SIGNS, BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENED IN A FEW OF THESE INCIDENCES IS THAT

                    CYCLISTS AND PEDESTRIANS HAVE BEEN LEFT IN THE LURCH, AT TIMES FOR WEEKS

                                         174



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ON END, UNTIL DETOUR SIGNS ARE PUT UP.  WHEN THE DUNN MEMORIAL

                    BRIDGE WAS OUT, IT WAS A FIVE-MILE DETOUR, VERY DIFFICULT IF YOU ARE A

                    CYCLIST OR A PEDESTRIAN.

                                 SO AGAIN, THE REQUIREMENT IS UPON THE DEPARTMENT OF

                    PARKS AND RECREATION, THE ONLY REQUIREMENT ON THE PRIVATE LANDOWNERS

                    WHO, BY THE WAY, VOLUNTARILY GAVE THEIR LAND, OR GAVE AN EASEMENT FOR

                    THIS EMPIRE STATE TRAIL, BUT IT IS A NOTIFICATION ONE TO HELP WITH

                    AWARENESS AND TO POST THOSE DETOURS.  I'LL JUST QUICKLY NOTE, THE SIX

                    PRIVATE ENTITIES INCLUDE, NATIONAL GRID - NOT EXACTLY A SMALL, PRIVATE

                    OWNER - BARD COLLEGE, THE WALLKILL VALLEY LAND TRUST, HONEYWELL

                    CORPORATION, PARKSIDE ESTATES AND APARTMENT COMPLEX, AND THE TOWN

                    OF AMHERST VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT.  SO THIS IS A GOOD AND A

                    NEEDED BILL GIVEN WHAT A TREMENDOUS ECONOMIC ENGINE THE EMPIRE

                    STATE TRAIL HAS BEEN, WHICH IS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO THOSE EIGHT

                    MILLION VISITORS THAT WE POST SIMPLE DETOUR SIGNS WHEN WE'VE HAD A TREE

                    FALL, WHEN WE'VE HAD A FLOOD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.  AND WITH THAT, MR.

                    SPEAKER, I DO URGE SUPPORT FOR THIS LEGISLATION.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 180TH

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                         175



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, IF WE COULD

                    CONTINUE ON OUR DEBATE LIST, ALL OF THESE ARE GOING TO BE RULES BILLS:

                    255 BY MR. EACHUS; 264 BY MS. CRUZ; 268 BY MR. VANEL; 299 BY MR.

                    MCDONALD; 324 BY MS. PAULIN; AND 326 BY MR. BORES.  IN THAT ORDER,

                    MR. SPEAKER.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  PAGE 14,

                    RULES REPORT NO. 255, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08310-C, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 255, EACHUS, LEE, L. ROSENTHAL, ROZIC, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS.

                    AN ACT TO AMEND THE GENERAL BUSINESS LAW, IN RELATION TO THE SALE OF

                    BICYCLES WITH ELECTRIC ASSIST AND MICROMOBILITY DEVICES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  ON -- ON A

                    MOTION BY MR. EACHUS, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE

                    SENATE BILL IS ADVANCED.

                                 EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MR. EACHUS.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THIS BILL REQUIRES RETAILERS TO PROVIDE

                    WITH THE SALE OF THEIR BICYCLES WITH ELECTRIC ASSIST, E-SCOOTERS AND OTHER

                    MICROMOBILITY DEVICES A NOTICE TO ATTACH TO EACH COMPELLING PROPER

                    AND LEGAL OPERATION.  I'D LIKE TO MENTION THAT THIS PARTICULAR BILL WILL

                    ALLOW MR. GOODELL TO SELL HIS E-BIKE WHEN HE'S THROUGH WITH IT, IT IN NO

                    WAY AFFECTS HIM BECAUSE IT'S ONLY ON RETAILERS.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                         176



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  THANK YOU FOR

                    THE EXPLANATION.

                                 MR. SLATER.

                                 MR. SLATER:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER BRAUNSTEIN:  MR. EACHUS,

                    WILL YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  CERTAINLY.

                                 MR. SLATER:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR.  SO CAN

                    YOU EXPLAIN TO US BASED ON YOUR BILL AND YOUR EXPLANATION, WHAT IS THE

                    PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO RECTIFY HERE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE TRYING TO

                    RECTIFY HERE IS ACTUALLY KIND OF AN EDUCATIONAL AND SAFETY PROBLEM.  WE

                    ARE HAVING MORE AND MORE E-BIKES, E-SCOOTERS, THOSE TYPES OF

                    MICROMOBILITY VEHICLES ALL THROUGHOUT THE STATE, AND THE FOLKS ARE NOT

                    AWARE OF WHERE THEY CAN ACTUALLY DRIVE THEM OR RIDE THEM, SO THEY

                    MUST BECOME AWARE OF WHAT THE LOCAL LAWS ARE.

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND HOW DOES THIS STICKER, THE NOTICE

                    THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING, HOW DOES THAT EDUCATE THEM ON WHERE THEY'RE

                    ABLE TO RIDE THESE MODES OF TRANSPORTATION?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THE -- IT'S ACTUALLY DEFINED THAT THE

                    NOTICE WILL SAY ALWAYS YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS AND FOLLOW TRAFFIC LAWS.

                    RIDING ON THE SIDEWALK MAY BE ILLEGAL; CONSULT YOUR LOCAL LAWS.

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND DOES IT DIRECT THEM WHERE THEY

                    CAN CONSULT THEIR LOCAL LAWS?

                                         177



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. EACHUS:  IT DOES NOT.

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND SO IF YOU'RE RIDING FROM ONE

                    MUNICIPALITY TO ANOTHER AND THE LOCAL LAWS CHANGE, HOW IS THE MOTORIST

                    EXPECTED TO KNOW THAT?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  WELL, I THINK IT'S LIKE ANY MOBILITY

                    DEVICE, YOU SHOULD KNOW, YOU KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, IF I COULD USE LIKE,

                    SKATEBOARDS.  IN SOME MUNICIPALITIES, SKATEBOARDS ARE ALLOWED, THEY'RE

                    ALLOWED ON SIDEWALKS.  IN OTHERS, THEY'RE NOT.  WE ARE GIVING CREDIT TO

                    THESE FOLKS THAT ARE USING THESE DEVICES, THESE VEHICLES, THE THOUGHT

                    THAT THEY CAN FIND OUT WHAT THE LAWS ARE IF THEY ARE CROSSING OVER

                    BORDERS.

                                 MR. SLATER:  I UNDERSTAND.  AND ARE LIMITED-USE

                    MOTORCYCLES INCLUDED IN THIS LEGISLATION?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  NO, THEY ARE NOT.

                                 MR. SLATER:  JUST GIVE ME ONE SECOND HERE, I

                    THOUGHT I SAW THAT THEY WERE INCLUDED.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MR. EACHUS:  FOR INSTANCE -- FOR INSTANCE, MOPEDS

                    ARE LIMITED-USE MOTORCYCLE AND THEY ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THIS BILL.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MR. SLATER:  I UNDERSTAND; I SEE THAT AS WELL.

                    THANK YOU FOR THE CLARIFICATION, I APPRECIATE THAT.  ARE THERE CURRENTLY

                    ANY OTHER NOTICES THAT ARE REQUIRED ON THESE E-BIKES AND SCOOTERS?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  NOT THAT I'M CURRENTLY AWARE OF AT

                    THIS TIME --

                                         178



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND DOES IT --

                                 MR. EACHUS:  -- DEALING WITH TRAFFIC LAWS OR

                    PEDESTRIAN.

                                 MR. SLATER:  OR DOES ANYPLACE ELSE ON THE E-BIKE

                    OR SCOOTER, IS THERE ANYPLACE ELSE THAT WE CURRENTLY REQUIRE ANY TYPE OF

                    NOTIFICATION, STICKER OR LABEL TO BE PLACED?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

                                 MR. SLATER:  OKAY.  SO THIS WILL BE THE FIRST?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  YES.

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND WE -- YOU MENTIONED RESALE.  SO

                    TALK TO ME QUICKLY IF YOU CAN ABOUT WHAT IF ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUES

                    WANTS TO RESELL THEIR E-BIKES, ARE THEY REQUIRED TO HAVE THAT STICKER

                    ALREADY ON IT, OR WHERE DOES THAT RESPONSIBILITY FALL?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  NO, IT STRICTLY LIES WITH RETAILERS.

                    AND THE PENALTIES LIE AGAINST THE RETAILER, SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE

                    STOCK IN THE RETAILER STORE.

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND IS THE RETAILER EXPECTED TO

                    PRODUCE THAT STICKER?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  AT THIS POINT, WE GIVE THAT TO -- THAT

                    RESPONSIBILITY TO - JUST A MOMENT - DEPARTMENT OF STATE.

                                 MR. SLATER:  SO THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE IS GOING

                    TO BE THE AGENCY THAT PRODUCES THE STICKER, AND IT'S THE RETAILER'S

                    RESPONSIBILITY TO OBTAIN THAT STICKER FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  I WOULDN'T SAY THAT THE DEPARTMENT

                    OF STATE IS GOING TO PRODUCE THAT STICKER, THEY'RE GOING TO SOMEHOW

                                         179



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ENFORCE THAT THAT STICKER IS PRODUCED.

                                 MR. SLATER:  AND IT'S UP TO THE RETAILER TO OBTAIN,

                    OR TO PRODUCE THAT STICKER?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  YES.

                                 MR. SLATER:  I UNDERSTAND.  AND WHAT ABOUT FOR THE

                    MOTORISTS THEMSELVES?  IF THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE RIDING A SCOOTER OR E-BIKE

                    THAT DOES NOT HAVE THAT STICKER, WHAT IS THE ENFORCEMENT AGENCY IN -- IN

                    THAT TYPE OF SCENARIO?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THERE IS NONE.

                                 MR. SLATER:  THERE IS NONE.  SO THERE'S NO

                    REQUIREMENT THEN FOR THE MOTORIST TO HAVE IT ON THEIR BIKE OR THEIR

                    SCOOTER, ONLY IF THEY'RE BUYING A NEW BIKE OR SCOOTER FROM A RETAILER,

                    FOR THE RETAILER TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS A NOTICE ON THAT BIKE OR

                    SCOOTER.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THAT IS CORRECT.

                                 MR. SLATER:  OKAY, ALL RIGHT.  WELL, THANK YOU VERY

                    MUCH TO THE SPONSOR, I APPRECIATE THE ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  YOU'RE WELCOME; THANK YOU.

                                 MR. SLATER:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. DURSO.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR A COUPLE QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. EACHUS, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  CERTAINLY.

                                         180



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MR. EACHUS.  SO JUST TO

                    PICK UP ON WHAT MY COLLEAGUE WAS TALKING ABOUT, YOU SAID THE RETAILER

                    WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THE STICKER?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  FOR PUTTING THE STICKER ON THE

                    VEHICLE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO -- SO IF I WAS

                    GOING TO ANY BIG BOX STORE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT THAT IS SELLING THESE

                    ELECTRIC BIKES, SCOOTERS, WHATEVER IT IS THAT FALLS WITHIN THIS LEGISLATION,

                    THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR ACTUALLY PLACING THE STICKER ON THAT VEHICLE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  WELL, THEY'RE -- THEY MAY ALREADY

                    HAVE THE STICKERS ON SOME OF THOSE VEHICLES, BUT IF THEY'RE NOT ON THERE

                    THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY, SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THEY MAY

                    ALREADY HAVE THEM ON THERE, IS THAT THEN DONE BY THE PRODUCER OF THAT

                    VEHICLE --

                                 MR. EACHUS:  IT COULD BE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  -- PRIOR TO BEING SHIPPED TO A STORE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  IT COULD WELL BE, YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  HOW WOULD THEY KNOW WHAT EACH

                    INDIVIDUAL MUNICIPALITY WITHIN, LET'S SAY, LONG ISLAND, WHICH HAS MANY

                    DIFFERENT TOWNS AND VILLAGES, EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE KNOW IF THEY'RE

                    ALLOWED TO USE OR NOT TO USE IT IN THOSE AREAS?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  WELL AGAIN, I CAN REREAD THE NOTICE,

                    BUT IT SAYS SIMPLY AT THE END OF IT, CONSULT LOCAL LAWS.

                                         181



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. DURSO:  WELL, NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT, AND I DON'T

                    WANT TO USE NAMES OF COMPANIES, BUT LET'S SAY THERE'S COMPANY X THAT

                    BUILDS THESE E-BIKES OR SCOOTERS.  THEY'RE SHIPPING THEM TO BIGGER BOX

                    STORES THAT ARE IN THE AREAS, BUT THERE'S MULTIPLE MUNICIPALITIES THAT FALL

                    WITHIN, LIKE I'M JUST USING LONG ISLAND BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE I'M FROM,

                    FOR EXAMPLE.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  I LOVE LONG ISLAND.

                                 MR. DURSO:  I KNOW YOU DO, YOU'RE FROM THERE

                    ORIGINALLY.  SO HOW WOULD THEY KNOW WHERE SOMEONE WOULD BE RIDING

                    THAT BIKE?  THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING -- IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A VERY -- IT'S A --

                    I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A BAD IDEA, I'M JUST SAYING HOW ARE THEY GOING TO

                    KNOW PUT THE PROPER STICKER ON THAT E-BIKE PRIOR TO THE SALE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  IF IT'S A RETAILER HERE IN NEW YORK

                    STATE, THAT RETAILER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVING THAT STICKER ON THAT VEHICLE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  EVEN IF THEY'RE BASED OUT OF NEW YORK

                    STATE -- IF THEY'RE NOT BASED IN NEW YORK STATE?  SO IF IT'S A BIG BOX

                    STORE COMPANY THAT'S BASED OUT OF COLORADO BUT THEY HAVE STORES HERE.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING WHAT

                    NEW YORK STATE LAWS ARE AND HAVING THOSE STICKERS PROVIDED TO THOSE

                    STORES THAT FALL WITHIN NEW YORK STATE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  WELL, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THAT

                    PARTICULAR CASE IS IF A BIG BOX STORE IS GOING TO SELL THEM HERE IN NEW

                    YORK STATE, THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING THAT THAT STICKER NEEDS TO

                    BE ON THAT VEHICLE.

                                         182



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  AND NOW -- AND WHO'D YOU SAY

                    WOULD BE ENFORCING THOSE -- THE LAW SAYING THAT IT HAS TO HAVE A STICKER

                    ON IT?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE.  THEY'RE

                    GOING TO COME UP WITH THE STICKERS, AND THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO BE

                    RESPONSIBLE FOR ENFORCING.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO IN OTHER WORDS, I LIVE IN THE VILLAGE

                    OF MASSAPEQUA PARK.  IF THEY HAVE AN ORDINANCE SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT

                    RIDE THOSE ON THE SIDEWALK, IT'S UP TO THE VILLAGE, RIGHT, TO ENFORCE THAT?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  YES, THAT -- THAT WOULD -- NOW YOU'RE

                    GOING INTO WHAT THE ACTUAL LAWS ARE FOR A PARTICULAR MUNICIPALITY; THAT'S

                    CORRECT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  SO -- BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT ALL

                    E-BIKES, RIGHT, OR SOMEONE -- IF I ALREADY HAVE ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO

                    HAVE THE STICKER ON IT, CORRECT?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  WHO IS TO KNOW WHEN I BOUGHT THAT

                    E-BIKE?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  WELL, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT CHECKING

                    E-BIKES OR E-SCOOTERS OUT ON THE ROAD, WE'RE NOT REQUESTING THAT ANY

                    AUTHORITY OR JURISDICTION STOP THEM OUT ON THE ROAD UNLESS THEY ARE

                    BREAKING THAT MUNICIPALITY'S LAWS.  WE ARE SIMPLY SAYING THAT IF THIS IS

                    BEING SOLD IN EVEN A STORE OF ANY TYPE, IF AN AUTHORITY WALKED INTO THAT

                    STORE, IT SHOULD HAVE A STICKER ON THAT BIKE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO THIS -- THIS BILL IS REALLY FOR THE

                                         183



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    STORE.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THE RETAILER.

                                 MR. DURSO:  NOT FOR THE PURCHASER, ESSENTIALLY, OR

                    THE PERSON RIDING IT, IT'S REALLY MORE FOR THE STORE THAT HAVE TO PROVIDE

                    THE STICKER, CORRECT?

                                 MR. EACHUS:  TO PROVIDE, YES, BUT -- BUT IT IS FOR

                    THE ACTUAL RIDER BECAUSE IT'S -- AS I MENTIONED WHEN I STARTED OFF IT'S

                    EDUCATIONAL.  IT IS INFORMING THE PURCHASER THAT PEDESTRIANS HAVE THE

                    RIGHT OF WAY.  IT'S INFORMING THAT IN MANY PLACES YOU CANNOT RIDE ON THE

                    SIDEWALKS, AND IT'S INFORMING THERE ARE OTHER LOCAL LAWS FOR EACH

                    MUNICIPALITY THAT YOU SHOULD BE AWARE OF IF YOU'RE RIDING THIS E-BIKE IN

                    THAT MUNICIPALITY.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  SO -- AND AGAIN, I DON'T MEAN

                    TO REPEAT MYSELF, SO I APOLOGIZE.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  I'M JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE

                    MECHANISM IS IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY KNOW WHERE THAT E-BIKE

                    OR SCOOTER IS GOING TO BE DRIVEN, WHETHER -- WHETHER OR NOT IT'S

                    PURCHASED AT THE PROPER PLACE, IF I BOUGHT IT OUT-OF-STATE, NOT BOUGHT IT

                    OUT-OF-STATE, IF I BOUGHT IT IN A DIFFERENT COUNTY, TOWN, VILLAGE, IF THEY'RE

                    GOING TO HAVE THE PROPER STICKER OR LAW IN PLACE, OR UNDERSTANDING OF

                    THE LAW, THE EDUCATION CORRECTLY DONE FOR THAT PURCHASER OF THAT E-BIKE

                    OR SCOOTER, IF THEY DON'T KNOW WHICH MUNICIPALITY HAS WHICH LAWS.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  WELL, WE LEAVE THAT UP TO THE

                    PURCHASER.  I MEAN, IT'S LEFT UP TO THE PURCHASER RIGHT NOW EVEN IF YOU

                                         184



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DON'T HAVE THE STICKER ON YOUR PARTICULAR E-BIKE OR E-SCOOTER, WHATEVER

                    IT MIGHT BE, THAT YOU STILL SHOULD BE ABIDING BY THE LAWS FOR THAT

                    MUNICIPALITY IF YOU'RE RIDING THAT IN THAT MUNICIPALITY.

                                 MR. DURSO:  AGREED, OKAY.  THANK YOU, SIR.  I

                    APPRECIATE YOUR ANSWERS.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  YOU'RE WELCOME, THANK YOU.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. WALSH.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

                                 MS. WALSH:  SO I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS JUST TURNING

                    INTO A KIND OF A SLEEP DEPRIVED AIRING OF GRIEVANCES TODAY, BUT I'M

                    GOING TO LET YOU ALL IN ON A LITTLE PET PEEVE OF MINE.  WHEN I AM GETTING

                    READY IN THE MORNING TO GO TO WORK, I OFTEN HAVE THE NEWS ON, AND THE

                    WEATHER PEOPLE NOW LATELY HAVE BEEN SAYING -- THEY TELL ME WHETHER I

                    CAN WASH MY CAR ON A PARTICULAR DAY, THEY TELL ME WHAT KIND OF COAT I

                    SHOULD BE WEARING ON A PARTICULAR DAY, IF I SHOULD BE WEARING A HEAVY

                    COAT, IF I SHOULD BE WEARING -- THEY TELL ME IF I SHOULD BE CARRYING AN

                    UMBRELLA ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY.  AND I FIND THAT VERY IRRITATING BECAUSE

                    I HAVE ENOUGH INTELLIGENCE TO STICK MY HEAD OUT THE WINDOW AND FIGURE

                    OUT HOW TO DRESS MYSELF, WHAT -- WHETHER I NEED AN UMBRELLA OR NOT,

                    AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST BOTHERS ME.  AND I BELIEVE THAT THIS BILL IS

                    VERY WELL-INTENTIONED.  LET ME JUST READ TO YOU, THOUGH, WHAT THE

                    NOTICE ACTUALLY SAYS:  NOTICE - ALWAYS YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS AND FOLLOW

                                         185



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TRAFFIC LAWS.  RIDING ON THE SIDEWALK MAY BE ILLEGAL; CONSULT LOCAL

                    LAWS.  THAT'S WHAT THE STICKER SAYS.  I MEAN, I FEEL LIKE INSTEAD OF THE

                    DEPARTMENT OF STATE, IT OUGHT TO BE THE DEPARTMENT OF THE OBVIOUS.  I

                    MEAN, REALLY.  I JUST -- I -- I APPRECIATE THE DESIRE TO KEEP EVERYBODY

                    SAFE ON THE ROADS BUT, YOU KNOW, I WOULD -- I WOULD REALLY HOPE THAT

                    JUST, YOU KNOW, WE HAD CAMPAIGNS BEFORE THAT ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO

                    WEAR SEAT BELTS, OR TO, YOU KNOW, CLICK IT OR TICKET, OR -- EVERYTHING'S

                    GOT TO RHYME, TOO, THAT BOTHERS ME, AS WELL --

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 -- BUT -- OR YOU HAVE TO WEAR A HELMET, YOU KNOW,

                    WHICH YOU DO, YOU REALLY SHOULD, BUT I MEAN DO WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE

                    A LAW THAT MANDATES A STICKER THAT DOESN'T REALLY GIVE YOU ANY

                    INFORMATION THAT YOU AS A WALKING, BREATHING, FUNCTIONING HUMAN BEING

                    SHOULDN'T ALREADY KNOW?  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  I'M AFRAID TO TELL YOU

                    YOU'RE WELCOME.

                                 MR. EACHUS.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  INTERESTING COMMENTS FROM MY

                    COLLEAGUES, AND I APPRECIATE ALL THE QUESTIONS AND STATEMENTS.  I JUST

                    MADE MENTION JUST A SHORT WHILE AGO THAT I WAS IN THE MINORITY BECAUSE

                    I AM NOT A LAWYER.  I AM A TEACHER, AND I TAUGHT FOR 40 YEARS AS MANY OF

                    YOU ALREADY KNOW, AND I TAUGHT HIGH SCHOOLERS.  I WOULD LOVE TO THINK

                    THAT WHAT MY COLLEAGUE MENTIONED, ABOUT I THINK I CAN CALL IT COMMON

                                         186



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SENSE, REALLY APPLIED, BUT HAVING DEALT WITH THESE TEENAGERS AND MIDDLE

                    SCHOOLERS FOR 40 YEARS, UNFORTUNATELY I CAN'T ALWAYS SAY THAT COMMON

                    SENSE IS THERE.  AND, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THIS.  WE CAN WALK RIGHT

                    OUTSIDE OF THIS BUILDING AND WE CAN SEE SOME SIGNS THAT SAY "NO

                    SKATEBOARDING."  ONE WOULD THINK THAT, AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT'S

                    COMMON SENSE ON A SIDEWALK WOULD OCCUR TO AN INDIVIDUAL.  BUT

                    UNFORTUNATELY WE TAKE EVERY PRECAUTION WE CAN IN HERE TO PROTECT ALL OF

                    OUR CITIZENS HERE IN NEW YORK STATE, AND THAT'S STRICTLY WHAT THIS IS, IT'S

                    A SAFETY THING AND AN EDUCATIONAL THING FOR BOTH OUR CONSTITUENTS AND

                    THOSE WHO MIGHT BE ON SIDEWALK OR WHEREVER AND ALSO THOSE WHO ARE

                    PURCHASING IT.

                                 SO ONCE AGAIN, I THANK EVERYBODY FOR THEIR COMMENTS

                    AND I HOPE YOU WILL SUPPORT THIS BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 180TH

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. FLOOD TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. FLOOD:  THANK YOU.  AND I DO APPRECIATE THE

                    SPONSOR'S COMMENTS.  BUT AS HE WAS SPEAKING, IT JUST REMINDS ME, WHAT

                    HAPPENED TO PARENTS JUST DOING THEIR JOB?  WHEN DID WE LOSE ALL

                    COMMON SENSE WHERE PARENTS CAN JUST LOOK AT YOUR CHILD AND SAY

                    WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU?  LIKE, WHY IS IT ON BUSINESSES TO HAVE TO

                                         187



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PUT, YOU KNOW, WARNINGS ABOUT EVERY LITTLE THING, LIKE HEY, DON'T DRIVE

                    THIS MOTORIZED SCOOTER IN A PACKED SIDEWALK.  I HAVE AN UNCLE, AND I

                    STILL HAVE HIM, YOU KNOW, BUT HE INSTILLED IN US EARLY IN LIFE CERTAIN

                    VALUES, AND HE USED TO HAVE A SAYING, STUPID'S FOR LIFE.  MAYBE INSTEAD

                    OF, YOU KNOW, FINING RETAILERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T PUT A STICKER ON,

                    THEY'RE GOING TO JACK UP THE FINES ON THE GUY THAT'S ACTUALLY DRIVING

                    THROUGH THE STREET OR THROUGH THE CROWDED SIDEWALK SO THAT MAYBE HE

                    WON'T DO IT AGAIN, AND PLACE THE BLAME ON THE APPROPRIATE PARTY.  I --

                    HONESTLY, I THINK THIS STATE WE JUST, ONE LITTLE THING AFTER LITTLE THING

                    SUCK MONEY OUT OF EMPLOYEES, OUT OF BUSINESSES AND PUT THE BLAME

                    ON -- ON PARTIES THAT JUST DON'T DESERVE IT.  WHY NOT HOLD THE PERSON

                    THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACCIDENT RESPONSIBLE?  I VOTE NEGATIVE.  I

                    WOULD ENCOURAGE MY COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. FLOOD IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  I VERY MUCH

                    APPRECIATE THAT MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES ARE NOT ATTORNEYS AND THEY BRING

                    A WEALTH OF PERSPECTIVE AND EXPERIENCE AND COMMON SENSE TO THE

                    CHAMBER, INCLUDING THE BILL SPONSOR, AND SO I THANK YOU.  AND BEFORE

                    WE LET THE ATTORNEYS OFF, WE MAY RECALL THE REASON WHY YOUR

                    MCDONALD'S CUP SAYS, WARNING, ON YOUR COFFEE, WARNING, THE CONTENTS

                    MAY BE HOT IS BECAUSE SOME LAWYERS GOT INVOLVED AND SUED

                    MCDONALD'S WHEN APPARENTLY THEIR CLIENT, WHO ORDERED HOT COFFEE,

                    DIDN'T REALIZE IT WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE HOT.  AND SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT

                                         188



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PRODUCTS AND YOU SEE ALL THESE WARNINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, ON A RECTAL

                    THERMOMETER, DO NOT USE ORALLY, OR ON DISHWASHERS, DON'T LET YOUR

                    CHILDREN PLAY INSIDE THEM, OR IRONS THAT SAY DON'T IRON WHILE WEARING

                    YOUR CLOTHES, OR FOOD PROCESSORS THAT SAY DON'T REMOVE THE FOOD WHILE

                    THE PROCESSOR IS OPERATING, OR EVEN SCOOTERS THAT SAY THIS PRODUCT

                    MOVES WHEN BEING USED.  YOU CAN THANK LAWYERS FOR HELPING ALL OF US

                    UNDERSTAND THOSE CONCEPTS SO THAT WE DON'T FIND OURSELVES IN AN

                    EMBARRASSING SITUATION OF ACTUALLY LIKE CUTTING OURSELVES WITH A POWER

                    TOOL, OR ELECTROCUTING OURSELVES WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO DRY THE HAIR WHILE

                    STILL TAKING A SHOWER.  I'M VOTING NO JUST BECAUSE I THINK MY

                    CONSTITUENTS DON'T KNOW THE LAW AND SO WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH

                    A STICKER THAT SAID FOLLOW THE LAW.  THAT'S TO SAY THAT MY CONSTITUENTS

                    ARE VERY THOUGHTFUL AND ALWAYS LAW-ABIDING.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 16, RULES REPORT NO. 264, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09122, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 264, CRUZ, DE LOS SANTOS, SIMONE, KELLES, SIMON, RAGA, TAYLOR,

                    SEAWRIGHT, LEVENBERG, OTIS, WALKER, DAVILLA, GLICK, ZACCARO,

                    ZINERMAN, L. ROSENTHAL, K. BROWN.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE CRIMINAL

                    PROCEDURE LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING ACCURATE INTERPRETATION OF

                    STATEMENTS MADE BY DEPONENTS WITH LIMITED ENGLISH PROFICIENCY IN

                                         189



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENTS AND SUPPORTING DEPOSITIONS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON A MOTION BY MS.

                    CRUZ, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS ADVANCED.

                                 MS. CRUZ, AN EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  NEW YORK IS

                    A LINGUISTICALLY DIVERSE STATE AND SOME NEW YORKERS ARE NOT FULLY

                    PROFICIENT IN ENGLISH.  IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE CONTEXT, THIS BECOMES AN

                    ISSUE WHEN A NEW YORKER WHO IS NOT FULLY PROFICIENT IN ENGLISH SEEKS

                    TO REPORT A CRIME.  HOW CAN A PERSON WHO IS NOT PROFICIENT IN ENGLISH

                    RELATE FACTS OF AN EVIDENTIARY CHARACTER TO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS IF

                    HE, SHE, OR THEY CANNOT SPEAK OR WRITE ENGLISH.  THE SOLUTION IS RATHER

                    SIMPLE, TO REQUIRE THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS USE QUALIFIED

                    TRANSLATORS WHO CAN TRANSLATE THE DEPONENT'S ACCUSATIONS INTO ENGLISH,

                    AND THEN REQUIRE THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS SUBMIT AFFIDAVITS AFFIRMING

                    WHAT THEY DID, AS WELL AS THEIR QUALIFICATIONS.  THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION

                    WOULD ENSURE THAT DEPONENTS HAVE THEIR ALLEGATIONS ACCURATELY

                    TRANSLATED BY SOMEONE WHO IS QUALIFIED TO TRANSLATE THEM, WHILE ALSO

                    PUTTING DEFENDANTS ON SUFFICIENT NOTICE OF THE FACTS GIVEN RIGHTS TO THE

                    FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS LEVIED AGAINST THEM.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. MORINELLO.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    WOULD THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR A FEW QUESTIONS?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  OF COURSE, JUDGE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. CRUZ YIELDS.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  THANK YOU.  SO WHAT THIS IS,

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                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WHEN IT STARTS OUT, WE HAVE AN ALLEGED INCIDENT; WOULD I NOT -- WOULD I

                    BE CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I'M SORRY, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  THE INITIAL PROCESS WOULD BE AN

                    ALLEGED INCIDENT THAT SOMEONE --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  -- THAT SOMEONE WANTS TO REPORT.

                    SO WE HAVE TWO -- TWO INDIVIDUALS.  WE HAVE ONE THAT IS

                    ENGLISH-SPEAKING, AND WE'LL TAKE ANOTHER SCENARIO THAT IS NON-ENGLISH

                    SPEAKING.  SO A NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING COMPLAINANT WOULD GO TO THE

                    POLICE, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  AND THEY WOULD EITHER HAVE A

                    BILINGUAL OR A FRIEND COME TO EXPLAIN IF THEY WERE NON-SPEAKING --

                    NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING UNDER THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, YES AND NO; IT DEPENDS ON WHICH

                    PART OF THE STATE.  THEY COULD SOMETIMES END UP COMING WITH SOMEONE

                    TO THE POLICE STATION.  SOMETIMES THAT HAPPENS, AND SOMETIMES YOU

                    HAVE A POLICE STATION THAT DON'T HAVE AN INTERPRETER OR ACCESS TO ONE,

                    THAT'S GENERALLY WHERE YOU WOULD SEE THE EXAMPLE YOU'RE PROVIDING.

                    BUT THEN IN OTHER INSTANCES, AS IS COMMON OFTEN IN NEW YORK CITY OR

                    OTHER POLICE STATIONS WHERE YOU HAVE AGENCIES THAT HAVE A CONTRACT

                    WITH OGS, THERE WOULD BE AN INTERPRETER OFTEN BY PHONE.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  BUT BASICALLY, THAT

                    STATEMENT BEGINS A LEGAL PROCESS; AM I NOT CORRECT?

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                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. CRUZ:  IT CAN, BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WELL, IF THERE'S A COMPLAINT, IT'S

                    GOT TO GO THROUGH A LEGAL PROCESS.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SO GIVE ME AN INSTANCE WHERE A

                    COMPLAINT FROM A COMPLAINANT WOULD NOT PROCEED TO A CRIMINAL

                    PROCESS.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, THEY CAN GO TO THE POLICE AND THE

                    POLICE MIGHT SAY WHAT YOU'RE ALLEGING IS NOT A CRIME.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THEY MIGHT GO TO THE POLICE, THAT

                    SOMETIMES HAPPENS, MAKE AN ALLEGATION, AND THE POLICE MIGHT SAY THIS

                    IS NOT A CRIME.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WELL, BUT THEY WOULD MAKE --

                    BUT SHOULD THERE BE, THE NEXT PHASE WOULD BE TO ISSUE AN INFORMATION,

                    OR AN ACCUSATORY INCIDENT--

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S RIGHT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  -- CORRECT?  THAT ACCUSATORY

                    INSTRUMENT WOULD BE AGAINST A ALLEGED DEFENDANT, OR AN ALLEGED

                    PERPETRATOR, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  SO FAR, YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SO AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT,

                    DEPENDING ON WHETHER IT'S A FELONY OR A MIS -- NO, BEFORE THAT THERE

                    WOULD BE AN ARRAIGNMENT, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, THAT WOULD DEPEND IF --

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                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  NO, THERE'S ALWAYS --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  -- IN THE PARTICULAR --

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  -- WHETHER, WHETHER --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WHETHER THERE'S -- IT'S A FELONY

                    OR MISDEMEANOR, THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE AN ARRAIGNMENT, CORRECT?  AT

                    THAT ARRAIGNMENT, LET'S TAKE A SCENARIO WHERE YOU HAVE A NON-SPEAKING

                    DEFENDANT, OKAY, WITH AN ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT.  AT THAT POINT, THE

                    COURT AND OCA PROVIDES AN INTERPRETER, WHICH IS CERTIFIED, EITHER BY

                    TELEPHONIC OR IN PERSON, DEPENDING ON THE LOCATION; WOULD THAT NOT BE

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  AND LET'S TAKE THE OTHER

                    SCENARIO WHERE YOU HAVE A NON-SPEAKING COMPLAINANT AND AN

                    ENGLISH-SPEAKING DEFENDANT, EITHER WAY THAT DEFENDANT IS GOING TO BE

                    ARRAIGNED, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  AND AT THAT ARRAIGNMENT, THAT

                    INFORMATION WHICH IS FORMING THE BASIS OF THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT

                    WOULD EITHER BE TRANSLATED BY AN OCA COURT CERTIFIED TRANSLATOR,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  HOLD ONE SEC.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WELL, MS. CRUZ, AS A SITTING

                    JUDGE, I HAD TO CALL OCA MANY TIMES.

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                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT YOU ASKED ME A

                    QUESTION, JUDGE, SO --

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  I REALIZE THAT, BUT WHAT I WAS

                    GOING TO TELL YOU IS I KNOW THE ANSWER BECAUSE I'VE HAD TO DO IT.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THEN WHY ASK ME, JUDGE?  YOU HAVE TO

                    GIVE ME THE OPPORTUNITY.  IT'S NOT FAIR.  IF YOU ASK ME A QUESTION, WE

                    WANT TO PUT IT ON THE RECORD, THEN ALLOW ME TO ANSWER IT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU.  I WAS JUST

                    TRYING TO ASSIST YOU BECAUSE I'VE EXPERIENCED IT AND I WAS TRYING TO BE

                    HELPFUL.  I'M SORRY, OKAY?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  GREAT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  I APOLOGIZE FOR KNOWING THE

                    ANSWER.  SO ONCE THE ARRAIGNMENT IS COMPLETE, OKAY --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  CAN I ASK -- CAN I ASK FOR A FAVOR, JUDGE?

                    IF WE -- WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER WHEN WE'RE

                    DEBATING.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  RIGHT.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THE ANSWER THAT YOU GAVE ME, IT'S

                    COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY BECAUSE IF WE'RE GOING TO PUT SOMETHING ON

                    THE RECORD, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION, THERE'S NO NEED FOR THE

                    SNARK, THERE'S NO NEED TO BE DISRESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER.  I'M NOTHING

                    BUT RESPECTFUL TO YOU AND I APPRECIATE IF WE CAN JUST STICK TO THE FACTS

                    AND TO THE LAW.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WELL, I STAND CORRECTED.  I JUST

                    SEEN YOU NEED -- YOU NEEDED TO INQUIRE OF SOMEBODY NEXT TO YOU, SO I

                                         194



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WAS JUST TRYING TO BE THAT PERSON AND ASSIST YOU.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU, JUDGE.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY, THAT'S THE ONLY REASON,

                    BECAUSE I'VE HAD TO DO IT.  SO ONCE THAT HAPPENS, ONCE THE ARRAIGNMENT

                    -- WELL -- IS COMPLETE, AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT DEPENDING ON WHETHER --

                    IF IT'S A MISDEMEANOR IT COULD EITHER GO TO PLEA OR TRIAL, BUT AT EVERY

                    STAGE THE STATE WILL PROVIDE THROUGH OCA A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER; AM I

                    NOT CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  NOT -- AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW, NOT AT

                    EVERY STAGE, AND OFTEN THE INITIAL STAGE WHERE THE COMPLAINANT IS

                    PROVIDING FACTS TO THE POLICE ABOUT THE INCIDENT CAN OFTEN BE -- IT'S

                    OFTEN VERY IMPORTANT AND THAT'S AT THE POINT WHERE RIGHT NOW WE DON'T --

                    WE DON'T REQUIRE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER TO ACTUALLY INTERPRET THE FACTS

                    THAT THEN GO INTO THE INFORMATION -- THE CERTIFIED INTERPRETER GENERALLY

                    COMES IN ONCE YOU'RE IN COURT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING

                    ABOUT.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  WHEN WE PROCEEDED TO THAT

                    POINT.  SO FROM THE POINT OF THE ARREST, THROUGH THE REST OF THE PROCESS,

                    OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION MANDATES THAT THERE BE -- AND THEY

                    CERTIFY THE INTERPRETERS; AM I NOT CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SO AT THE POINT OF THE

                    ARRAIGNMENT FORWARD, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER,

                                         195



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  BY -- FROM THE ARRAIGNMENT ON, YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  FROM THE ARRAIGNMENT ON.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  MM-HMM.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SO FROM THAT POINT, IF IT'S A

                    MISDEMEANOR IT WILL STAY IN THE LOCAL COURT, AND DEPENDING ON WHETHER

                    THE DEFENDANT OR THE COMPLAINANT IS NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING, BECAUSE OF

                    THE RULES OF OCA THERE WILL BE AN INTERPRETER CERTIFIED; AM I NOT

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  IF IT'S A FELONY AND THEY

                    WAIVE THE PRELIMINARY HEARING, OR IF THERE'S A PRELIMINARY HEARING,

                    DEPENDING ON THE LANGUAGE BARRIER.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  AT THAT POINT, IT DOESN'T -- AT ANY POINT

                    ONCE THEY'RE IN THE COURT PROCESS, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, THERE'S ALWAYS AN

                    INTERPRETER IF -- ESPECIALLY IF THE DEFENDANT DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  ALL RIGHT.  SO I'M A LITTLE

                    CONFUSED AS TO WHAT THE NECESSITY AT THE INITIAL COMPLAINT STAGE IS TO

                    HAVE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER IF THROUGHOUT THE LEGAL PROCESS BOTH THE

                    COMPLAINANT IS PROTECTED, AND THE DEFENDANT IS PROTECTED.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, ARGUABLY WE WOULD SAY THAT IN A

                    STATE LIKE OURS WHERE THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE ENGLISH AS

                    THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE AND THAT EVEN IF THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IT MIGHT NOT

                    BE PROFICIENT, THAT IN ORDER TO EVEN GET TO THE PROCESS OF BEING IN COURT,

                    ALL OF THE FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SAID BEFORE THAT ARE EXTREMELY

                                         196



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IMPORTANT FOR THE ACCURACY OF ACTUALLY DEFENDING THE RIGHT OF THE

                    ACCUSED, BUT DEFINITELY PROTECTING THE PERSON WHO IS MAKING THE

                    ACCUSATION AS THE SUPPOSED VICTIM.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  ALL RIGHT.  SO LET'S TAKE THE

                    VICTIM, OKAY, AND THIS IS -- YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT -- YOUR FOCUS IS ON THE

                    FACT THAT THAT PARTICULAR VICTIM'S STATEMENT HAS TO BE ACCURATE; AM I NOT

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I'M WORRIED ABOUT BOTH INDIVIDUALS,

                    WHOEVER IT IS THAT IS NOT AN ENGLISH-SPEAKING PARTICIPANT, FOR LACK OF A

                    BETTER WORD, WHETHER IT'S A DEFENDANT OR THE VICTIM.  I WANT TO MAKE

                    SURE THAT WHATEVER INFORMATION IS BEING GATHERED AND PUT INTO THE

                    INFORMATION, WHICH IS I BELIEVE THE NAME OF THE DOCUMENT, THE INITIAL

                    DOCUMENT, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S ACCURATE.  IT SAVES THE STATE

                    MONEY, BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT ACCURATE BY THE TIME WE GET TO COURT, IT COULD

                    BE OVERTURNED.  SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE AS ACCURATE AS

                    POSSIBLE THROUGH THE ENTIRE PROCESS.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SO WOULD IT BE A FAIR STATEMENT

                    TO SAY THAT A VICTIM NEEDS TO HAVE JUSTICE AS QUICKLY AS THEY CAN AND AS

                    PROPER AS THEY CAN?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I THINK THAT'S A STATEMENT WE COULD ALL

                    AGREE WITH, YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  WELL, DO -- IT -- DO YOU

                    KNOW WHETHER OR NOT POLICE DEPARTMENTS AT THIS POINT IN THIS STATE HAVE

                    THE RESOURCES OR HAVE A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER ON STAFF AT ALL TIMES?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I DON'T THINK THAT THEY HAVE IT AS STAFF AT

                                         197



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ALL TIMES, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THERE IS AN OGS CONTRACT THAT

                    THEY CAN ENTER INTO, OR THAT MOST OF THEM HAVE ENTERED INTO, WHERE THEY

                    CAN PROVIDE INTERPRETERS VIA TELEPHONICALLY.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  SO IT'S YOUR STATEMENT

                    THAT -- AND YOUR BELIEF THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY AN AGREEMENT THAT THEY CAN

                    ENTER INTO.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  SO DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT

                    THERE MIGHT BE ANY DELAYS IN LOCATING A PROPER INTERPRETER AT THAT

                    PARTICULAR POINT, WHICH THEN WOULD COMPROMISE THE VICTIM?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I SUSPECT THAT UNLESS IT'S AN OBSCURE

                    LANGUAGE, MOST SERVICES ARE PRETTY QUICK IN OBTAINING A PERSON OVER THE

                    PHONE WHO SPEAKS THAT OTHER LANGUAGE.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  SO WHAT DO YOU DO IN A

                    RURAL AREA THAT DOESN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THAT INTERPRETER AND THE VICTIM IS

                    NOT GIVEN HER OR HIS JUSTICE IN A TIMELY FASHION?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  GIVEN THAT MOST OF THESE INTERPRETING

                    SERVICES, ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AREAS, ARE USED BY PHONE, I SUSPECT THAT AN

                    OFFICER WOULD BE ABLE TO GET SOMEBODY ON THE PHONE VERY QUICKLY.

                    AGAIN, UNLESS IT'S AN OBSCURE LANGUAGE, THERE SHOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  AND LET'S TAKE THE OBSCURE

                    LANGUAGE, OKAY?  IN NEW YORK CITY I'M SURE THAT IT'S EASIER TO FIND AN

                    OBSCURE LANGUAGE, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YOU WOULD THINK.  I'VE HAD IN MY PAST

                    LIVE CASES WHERE IT TOOK ME A WEEK TO GET AN INTERPRETER.  BUT IN

                                         198



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INSTANCES LIKE THAT, YOU CAN ACTUALLY -- THIS IS WHERE THE FRIEND THAT YOU

                    DESCRIBED IN THE BEGINNING OF YOUR EXAMPLE CAN COME IN AND BE ABLE TO

                    INTERPRET FOR THEM.  AND WE WOULD -- WE WOULD -- THEY WOULD JUST HAVE

                    TO SIGN A -- I THINK THE LANGUAGE IS IN HERE, GIVE ME ONE SECOND.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SURE.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THERE'S A SHORT STATEMENT THAT THEY'RE

                    ABLE TO SIGN OFF ON.  THE STATEMENT IN ENGLISH WOULD BE DRAFTED BY THE

                    INTERPRETER ALONG WITH THE AFFIDAVIT STATING THEIR QUALIFICATIONS, AND

                    AFFIRMING THE ACCURACY OF THE TRANSLATION.  SO EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT COURT

                    CERTIFIED, IN THOSE FEW INSTANCES WHERE YOU HAVE A LANGUAGE THAT'S NOT

                    VERY COMMON, THERE WOULD BE A POSSIBILITY TO USE THAT SELF-TESTING

                    AFFIDAVIT OF ACCURACY.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  SO WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT

                    SHOULD THAT SITUATION OCCUR, IT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT TO BE ABLE TO USE

                    EITHER A POLICE OFFICER THAT'S BILINGUAL OR A FRIEND OF THE VICTIM WHO

                    TRANSLATES FOR THAT VICTIM?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S A -- I -- I WOULD BE MUCH MORE

                    COMFORTABLE WITH THE FRIEND OF THE VICTIM THAN WITH A POLICE OFFICER

                    BEING THE INTERPRETER, NOT FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN THEY'RE THE ONES WHO

                    HAVE TO ENFORCE THE LAW, AND SO I WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S

                    SOMEBODY WHO IS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THAT.  BUT I THINK ULTIMATELY

                    THAT WOULD BE UP TO A COURT TO DETERMINE.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY, THANK YOU.  SO AGAIN,

                    THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT

                    ONCE -- ONCE A -- AN ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT IS FILED, FROM THAT POINT ON

                                         199



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WHETHER IT'S THE VICTIM OR THE DEFENDANT ARE PROTECTED BY CERTIFIED COURT

                    INTERPRETERS UNDER THE AUSPICES OF OFFICE OF COURT OF ADMINISTRATION.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S WHAT I'VE SEEN IN PRACTICE, AS

                    WELL, YES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  I APOLOGIZE --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN PRACTICE, AFTER

                    ARRAIGNMENT ON ONES THAT ARE IN COURT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  THANK YOU.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 THANK YOU.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  IT JUST SEEMS THAT OUR CRIMINAL

                    JUSTICE SYSTEM PROTECTS BOTH VICTIMS AND DEFENDANTS THROUGHOUT.  THE

                    LANGUAGE BARRIER THAT THIS IS FOCUSED ON, THE FEAR IS, NUMBER ONE, THE

                    COST TO SMALLER DEPARTMENTS WILL DELAY JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIM.  NUMBER

                    TWO, AT EVERY STAGE THAT VICTIM WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A

                    CERTIFIED INTERPRETER GO OVER THAT STATEMENT WITH THEM.  NUMBER THREE,

                    ANY DELAYS COULD IMPACT THAT PARTICULAR VICTIM AND NOT BRING THEM

                    JUSTICE.  I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS AN OVERREACH, I BELIEVE THAT IT IS NOT

                    NECESSARY AND I URGE MY COLLEAGUES TO VOTE NO ON THIS.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ANGELINO.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WOULD

                    YOU ASK THE SPONSOR IF SHE'LL YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. CRUZ, WILL YOU

                                         200



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  ABSOLUTELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. CRUZ YIELDS, SIR.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  I HAD THE LUXURY OF SITTING RIGHT

                    NEXT TO THE QUESTIONS AS THEY WERE BEING ASKED, BUT I STILL MANAGED TO

                    COME UP WITH A COUPLE OF MY OWN.  THE -- SO -- YOU KNOW I'M FROM A

                    RURAL AREA, CELL PHONE COVERAGE, NO GOOD.  A LOT OF TIMES -- I CAN TELL

                    YOU EXACTLY THE SITUATION, THE TOWN OF SMYRNA, NEW YORK, LUMBER

                    MILL, THEY HAVE A LOT OF H-2A WORKERS THERE WHO ARE SPANISH SPEAKING,

                    AND OCCASIONALLY THERE IS AN ALTERCATION OR SOMETHING HAPPENS AND WE

                    GET INVOLVED.  WE USUALLY TRY TO FIND A NEUTRAL EMPLOYEE TO TRANSLATE

                    FOR US TO GET THE GIST OF THAT.  SO, SO FAR WE'RE OKAY, SO WE FIND OUT THERE

                    WAS A FIGHT, HE DID THIS, HE HIT THAT, OR WHATEVER.  IT'S ONLY AT THE POINT

                    THAT WE'RE DRAFTING AN INFORMATION WE HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, YES, BECAUSE THAT INFORMATION, ALL

                    OF THE SPECIFIC FACTS THAT YOU PUT INTO THE INFORMATION AS AN OFFICER ARE

                    WHAT THEN GETS USED BY THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY TO DETERMINE WHETHER --

                    DO WE CHARGE ANYTHING?  WHAT ARE THOSE CHARGES AND HOW TO MOVE

                    FORWARD, AND WE WANT THAT TO BE AS SPECIFIC AS POSSIBLE.  SO IF IT IS AN

                    EMERGENCY AND YOU HAVE TO RESPOND RIGHT THEN AND THERE, YOU MAY NOT

                    HAVE THAT TIME.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  RIGHT.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  BUT IF YOU ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, AM I

                    ARRESTING THIS PERSON AND THEN I HAVE TO PASS ON WHAT'S IN THE

                    INFORMATION OVER TO THE DA, THAT IS WHAT THE BILL REQUIRES, THAT

                                         201



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WHATEVER INFORMATION IS BEING USED BY THE -- BY LAW ENFORCEMENT FROM

                    A DEPONENT, THAT COULD BE THE VICTIM OR IF YOU'RE PUTTING INFORMATION OF

                    THE ACCUSED IN THERE AS WELL, THAT'S WHAT HAS TO BE TRANSLATED.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  OKAY.  SO A LOT OF TIMES IF IT'S

                    HE-SAID/SHE-SAID CUT AND DRY, WILL YOU LET THE COMPLAINANT OR DEPONENT

                    TO SIGN.  DOES THIS ALSO INCLUDE STATEMENTS THAT -- ARE THE INFORMATION IS

                    BASED UPON?  SO THE STATEMENT FROM THE VICTIM, THAT ALSO HAS TO BE --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  OKAY.  THE --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT'S EVEN MORE

                    IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF YOU NEED A STATEMENT FROM A VICTIM TO DETERMINE

                    WHY THE CRIME HAD BEEN COMMITTED AND WHAT IS THE CRIME, YOU WANT TO

                    MAKE SURE THAT THE DA HAS INFORMATION THAT IS AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE.

                    AND YOU MENTIONED THE EXAMPLE OF IN A RURAL AREA HAVING PEOPLE THAT

                    SPEAK SPANISH, I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS,

                    BUT DEPENDING ON THE COUNTRY YOU COME FROM, A SINGLE WORD CAN HAVE

                    TEN DIFFERENT MEANINGS IN SPANISH AND IT CAN COMPLETELY CHANGE THE

                    MEANING OF WHATEVER YOU'RE BEING TOLD, SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT

                    IS AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  DO YOU THINK THAT A -- I HEARD

                    WHEN THE JUDGE WAS ASKING, YOU MENTIONED TELEPHONIC.  DO YOU THINK

                    A TELEPHONE -- A TELEPHONE CONVERSATION IS BETTER TRUSTED THAN A PERSON

                    WHO IS ACTUALLY THERE AND SEES THE -- HEARS THE VOICE INFLECTION AND SEES

                    THE PERSON?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I THINK FOR INTERPRETATION PURPOSES I'VE

                                         202



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SEEN IN PRACTICE, AND THIS IS MORE, I'VE SEEN BETTER INTERPRETATIONS

                    SOMETIMES BY PHONE THAN IN PERSON, AND VICE VERSA.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  OKAY.  AND WHAT ABOUT THE

                    ENGLISH -- THE USE OF ENGLISH IN SIGN LANGUAGE, WHICH WE ACTUALLY

                    ENCOUNTER JUST ABOUT AS FREQUENTLY.  THIS IS ONLY SPOKEN WORD, THIS IS

                    NOT SIGN LANGUAGE?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THIS BILL DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE THAT.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  OKAY, AND BECAUSE SOMETIMES

                    SIGN LANGUAGE THEY WRITE OUT THEIR OWN STATEMENT AND --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YOU JUST GAVE ME AN IDEA FOR MY NEXT

                    BILL.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  OKAY.  WELL, THANK YOU VERY

                    MUCH.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL

                    THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  ABSOLUTELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. CRUZ, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  THANK YOU.  I'M JUST -- I'M JUST

                    TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS BILL IMPACTS, I GUESS, CURRENT PROCESS.  SO

                    ULTIMATELY THIS IS DEALING WITH ANY TIME THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT IS AN

                                         203



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INFORMATION, WHICH CONTAINS NON-HEARSAY FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS SUPPLIED

                    BY, YOU KNOW, A COMPLAINANT, RIGHT.  THAT HAS TO HAVE A CERTIFIED

                    TRANSLATOR, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT HAS TO HAVE AN AFFIDAVIT FROM

                    SOMEONE CERTIFYING THAT THEY HAVE -- THEY ARE QUALIFIED TRANSLATORS AND

                    THAT THE INFORMATION IS ACCURATE TO THE BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  SO IN A SITUATION WHERE

                    THE POLICE AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY MOVE FORWARD WITH THE COMPLAINT

                    THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN CONVERTED TO AN INFORMATION, RIGHT, SO IT DOES

                    CONTAIN HEARSAY, AND THEN LATER ON DECIDES TO CONVERT THAT TO

                    INFORMATION WITH A SUPPORTING DEPOSITION.  THAT PROCESS ISN'T CHANGED

                    HERE, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  NO.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SO SOMEONE CAN MAKE A

                    COMPLAINT TO THE POLICE, PERHAPS IN A MORE RURAL AREA OR IN THE -- THE

                    MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, OR EARLY MORNING HOURS, FOR WHATEVER REASON NO

                    ONE IS THERE TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THIS TRANSLATION, THE POLICE COULD

                    MAKE AN ARREST --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  GO AHEAD, CONTINUE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  -- THE POLICE COULD MAKE AN ARREST

                    AND ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT COULD BE FILED THAT'S A COMPLAINT THAT DOESN'T

                    HAVE THAT EXTRA NON-HEARSAY REQUIREMENT, THAT'S NOT CHANGED BY THIS,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YEAH NO, I THINK YOU'RE CORRECT, IT

                    WOULDN'T BE TRIGGERED AT THAT POINT.

                                         204



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  AND WE'RE ONLY DEALING WITH

                    MISDEMEANORS HERE, RIGHT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  NO, IT'S FOR EVERYTHING.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME HOW

                    THIS IMPACTS FELONY CHARGES?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR QUESTION,

                    LIKE, YOU'RE ASKING WHAT WAY IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT?

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  YES.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  IT WOULDN'T BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IS

                    USED NOW.  THE ONLY THING THAT IT TOUCHES IS THE CERTIFYING OF THE

                    TRANSLATION, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY TOUCH THE OTHER AREAS OF THE PROCESS.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  WELL, THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT

                    UNDER LAW NOW THAT THE FELONY COMPLAINT BE CONVERTED TO AN

                    INFORMATION, CORRECT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  RIGHT.  THE NEXT STEP WOULD BE TO

                    PROCEED TO GRAND JURY, WHICH WOULD BE LIVE TESTIMONY, THERE IS NO

                    WRITTEN SUPPORTING DEPOSITIONS.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, YOU DO HAVE THE INSTANCES WHERE

                    THE INITIAL CHARGE IS A MISDEMEANOR AND THEN GETS UPGRADED TO A FELONY

                    BASED ON THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  WELL, THE UP-CHARGING, RIGHT, THAT

                    -- BUT THAT COULD BE DONE THROUGH THE GRAND JURY PROCESS, BUT AGAIN,

                    THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT THAT A FELONY -- I MEAN, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS

                    A FELONY INFORMATION, CORRECT?

                                         205



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. CRUZ:  NO, I DON'T THINK THERE IS.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  THAT'S WHAT THE GRAND IS JURY.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YEAH.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  BUT YOU SEE, IF YOU'RE INVOLVING A GRAND

                    JURY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE -- YOU'RE NOW IN THE COURT SYSTEM THAT THE

                    JUDGE MENTIONED, YOU WOULD HAVE AN INTERPRETER, SO...

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT, WE'RE ON

                    THE SAME PAGE WITH THAT, RIGHT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YEAH.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SO I'M JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND,

                    THIS REALLY ONLY DEALS WITH MISDEMEANORS THAT, BY LAW, IN ORDER FOR THE

                    PROSECUTION TO PROCEED --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WELL, IN PRACTICE, YES.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  LET ME JUST FINISH, RIGHT, SO TO

                    STAY READY FOR TRIAL, TO PROCEED, RIGHT, ASSUMING A COC IS FILED TO

                    COMPLY WITH ALL THESE NEW DISCOVERY LAWS AND EVERYTHING, RIGHT,

                    ASSUMING ALL THAT'S DONE, BUT TO CONVERT A COMPLAINT AND BE ABLE TO

                    PROCEED TO TRIAL ON A MISDEMEANOR YOU NEED AN INFORMATION.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WHEN THE PERSON FIRST WALKS INTO A

                    POLICE STATION TO MAKE AN ACCUSATION, YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW IF IT'S

                    GOING TO BE A MISDEMEANOR OR A FELONY, AND THAT'S WHEN IT WOULD BE

                    TRIGGERED, BECAUSE AT THE POINT WHERE THEY'RE COMING INTO THE STATION TO

                    MAKE A COMPLAINT, OR, YOU KNOW, IN A RURAL AREA THEY CALL THE POLICE

                                         206



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OVER, YOU DON'T KNOW AT THAT POINT WHAT IT'S GOING TO BE.  AND SO WHAT

                    WE'RE SAYING IS AT THE POINT WHERE THE POLICE IS TAKING ALL THE

                    INFORMATION THAT HYPOTHETICALLY WOULD END UP IN AN INFORMATION OR

                    LEADING TO A CHARGE, YOU -- WE ARE ASKING THAT THAT INFORMATION, AND IT'S

                    CONFUSING BECAUSE WHAT WE KNOW AS INFORMATION AND WHAT'S

                    INFORMATION ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT --

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  I'M WITH YOU.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  -- WHAT -- WHAT THE NARRATIVE, LET'S CALL IT

                    THE NARRATIVE THAT THEN GOES INTO THE INFORMATION, YOU DON'T KNOW AT THE

                    BEGINNING IF IT'S JUST GOING TO BE AN INFORMATION BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO

                    BE A MISDEMEANOR OR IT'S GOING TO END UP LEADING TO A FELONY.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT BEFORE,

                    AGAIN, DEPENDING ON THE JURISDICTION, RIGHT, SOME PLACES THE POLICE

                    CHARGE, THEY FILE CHARGES, OR THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY FILES CHARGES, AND

                    I'VE WORKED IN BOTH JURISDICTIONS WHERE BOTH THINGS CAN HAPPEN.  ARE

                    YOU SAYING THAT BEFORE CHARGES CAN BE FILED, WHETHER IT'S A COMPLAINT, A

                    MISDEMEANOR COMPLAINT, MISDEMEANOR INFORMATION, OR FELONY

                    COMPLAINT, THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE THIS EXTRA CERTIFICATION IN ORDER TO

                    EVEN CHARGE THE DEFENDANT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  I DON'T THINK THE BILL -- THE BILL DOES NOT

                    CONTEMPLATE TIMELINE.  THE BILL CONTEMPLATES THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE

                    WHO DOESN'T SPEAK ENGLISH IS GOING TO THE POLICE AND SAYING THIS IS

                    WHAT'S HAPPENED TO ME, I'M A VICTIM OF X-Y-Z, AND AT THAT POINT WHEN

                    THEY'RE A PERCEIVED VICTIM, THAT'S WHEN WE'RE REQUIRING A CERTIFIED

                    TRANSLATOR.

                                         207



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SO IN THE INSTANCE WHERE, AND

                    WHOEVER IT IS, BUT THEY'RE NOT A CERTIFIED INTERPRETER OR TRANSLATOR,

                    WHETHER IT'S A POLICE OFFICER OR THE VICTIMS FRIEND, WHEN THEY COME IN

                    AND AN ALLEGATION IS MADE ACCUSING SOMEONE ELSE OF A CRIME, ARE YOU

                    SAYING THAT THE POLICE CANNOT CHARGE UNTIL THEY GET THIS STATEMENT

                    CERTIFIED?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  WE'RE NOT SAYING THEY CANNOT CHARGE.  I

                    THINK IN THAT INSTANCE IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  SO THERE'S NOTHING IN THIS

                    BILL THAT PROHIBITS CHARGING -- I UNDERSTAND, AND WHEN WE USE THE WORD

                    "INFORMATION" MEANING THE TYPE OF ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT, RIGHT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S RIGHT.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  BUT THE POLICE COULD PROCEED AND

                    THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY COULD PROCEED AT LEAST INITIALLY ON A COMPLAINT

                    THAT'S NOT CONVERTED YET TO AN INFORMATION.  THIS DOESN'T --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.  WE'RE NOT TOUCHING THAT, YES.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  SO IT'S ONLY -- THE SCENARIO

                    WOULD INVOLVE LATER ON IF ONCE THE CHARGING DECISION IS MADE, THE

                    PERSON IS CHARGED, RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A TRANSLATION, IT WILL BE NOT

                    CERTIFIED, IN ORDER FOR THEM TO CREATE AN ACCUSATORY THAT COULD PROCEED

                    AT LEAST AT THE MISDEMEANOR LEVEL, THEY HAVE TO GET IT CONVERTED TO AN

                    INFORMATION, RIGHT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YEAH, YES.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  SO NONE OF THAT HAS

                    CHANGED.  IT'S JUST THE REQUIREMENT TO CONVERT A COMPLAINT TO AN

                                         208



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INFORMATION --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  OR WHATEVER THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT

                    WOULD BE IF IT WOULD CAUSE A FELONY.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  BUT THERE IS NO -- BUT THAT ONLY

                    HAPPENS AT GRAND JURY.  SO THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO SUPPORTING

                    DEPOSITION WITH A FELONY INDICTMENT --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  RIGHT, THAT'S THE GRAND JURY, THAT

                    WOULD BE THE GRAND JURY, RIGHT, OKAY.  SO AGAIN, THIS ONLY APPLIES TO

                    MISDEMEANORS.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES, INITIALLY, BUT I WANT TO REMIND YOU

                    OF THE EXAMPLE I GAVE OF THE UP-CHARGING.  IN AN INSTANCE LIKE THAT, YOU

                    BEGIN WITH THE ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT AND THEN IT EVENTUALLY TURNS INTO

                    SOMETHING ELSE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  BUT YOU COULD ONLY DO THAT IF YOU

                    FILE A FELONY COMPLAINT AGAIN.  UNLESS THE LAW HAS BEEN COMPLETELY

                    REWRITTEN THAT I'M NOT AWARE OF, IN ORDER TO PROCEED WITH A PROSECUTION

                    OF ANYONE WITH A FELONY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN INDICTMENT UNLESS THE

                    DEFENDANT WAIVES --

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  -- AND THERE'S AN EMPIRICAL OF

                    INFORMATION.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THAT'S CORRECT.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  BUT PUTTING THAT SITUATION ASIDE,

                    SO AGAIN, IN ORDER TO PROCEED WITH THE PROSECUTION OF SOMEBODY, UNDER

                                         209



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THIS BILL, THIS IS ONLY DEALING WITH MISDEMEANORS THAT REQUIRE IT TO BE

                    CONVERTED TO AN INFORMATION CONTAINING NON-HEARSAY, FACTUALITY

                    (INAUDIBLE), RIGHT?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THE BILL DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT IT

                    APPLIES TO MISDEMEANORS.  I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THAT IN

                    PRACTICE THAT'S THE WAY THAT IT COULD PLAY OUT --

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  WELL, I THINK ON THE REST OF THE

                    LAW.  I THINK THIS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE REST OF THE CPL AND PENAL

                    LAW, THAT'S THE ONLY WAY IT CAN PLAY OUT.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YEAH.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY.  SO -- OKAY.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  BUT YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY I NEVER WANT

                    TO RULE SOME SORT OF OTHER SCENARIO, SO I'M GOING TO SAY YES, BUT MAYBE.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  OKAY, WE'LL GO WITH THAT.  OKAY,

                    THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, I APPRECIATE IT.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  SIR, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. MCGOWAN:  YOU KNOW, I THINK ULTIMATELY

                    THERE'S PERHAPS SOME CONFUSION OF WHAT EXACTLY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

                    HERE.  I MEAN, LOOK, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE CANNOT IMPOSE LAWS THAT

                    RESTRICT THE POLICE FROM MAKING ARRESTS.  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PROBABLE

                    CAUSE DETERMINATION, WHICH IS VERY FAR BELOW BEYOND A REASONABLE

                    DOUBT WHICH IS REQUIRED TO CONVICT SOMEONE OF A CRIME.  SO MY

                    CONCERN HERE IS THAT PERHAPS THIS PUTS TOO MUCH OF A BURDEN ON POLICE

                                         210



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND PROSECUTION WHEN THEY HAVE A GOOD FAITH BASIS.  IF SOMEBODY

                    COMES IN WITH A FRIEND OR THERE'S A POLICE OFFICER, I MEAN, I HAVE -- I

                    REPRESENT POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, THAT HAVE

                    JURISDICTION OVER AREAS WITH SUBSTANTIAL SPANISH-SPEAKING RESIDENTS,

                    HAITIAN CREOLE SPEAKING, YIDDISH SPEAKING RESIDENTS, SO THE POLICE ARE

                    IN TUNE TO WHO THEY REPRESENT AND HAVE PROPER -- THE PROPER ABILITY TO

                    RELATE TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS AND TAKE A COMPLAINT.  WHAT WE DON'T WANT

                    OUR BILLS THAT IMPEDE THE POLICE ABILITY TO GO OUT AND MAKE ARRESTS

                    WHEN THERE'S A GOOD FAITH BASIS PROVIDED TO THEM WHICH COULD THEN

                    FURTHER ENDANGER PUBLIC SAFETY.

                                 SO ULTIMATELY THIS BILL I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY THIS

                    DOES ONLY APPLY TO MISDEMEANORS, BY OPERATION OF THE REST OF THE

                    CRIMINAL PROCEDURAL LAW, BECAUSE ANY FELONY CHARGE DOES NOT REQUIRE

                    INFORMATION, WHICH IS A TYPE OF ACCUSATORY INSTRUMENT REQUIRING

                    NON-HEARSAY FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY BE REPLACED BY A

                    GRAND JURY ACTION OR DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.  SO, YOU KNOW, I HAVE

                    CONCERNS WITH THIS BILL.  I THINK IT'S IN SOME WAYS BROUGHT ATTENTION, BUT

                    ULTIMATELY THAT'S THE JOB OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, RIGHT, AS SOMEONE WHO

                    PRACTICES CRIMINAL DEFENSE, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY BE THE JOB

                    TO CHALLENGE THE VORACITY AND ACCURACY OF THOSE STATEMENTS.  SO I DON'T

                    THINK WE SHOULD BE DOING THE JOB OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, THAT'S REALLY

                    WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE.  SO I THINK IT'S A BIT OF A REACH, I THINK IT'S

                    UNNECESSARY, AND FOR THOSE REASONS, SIR, I WILL BE RESPECTFULLY VOTING IN

                    THE NEGATIVE.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                         211



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. LAVINE.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  THANK YOU.  WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. CRUZ, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  OF COURSE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THERE SHE IS.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  SO SOMEONE WHO IS ARRESTED HAS GOT A

                    RIGHT TO A SPEEDY ARRAIGNMENT, AND SOMEONE WHO IS THE VICTIM OF A

                    CRIME HAS A RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTORS

                    PROCESS THAT -- PROCESS THE MATTER.  SO I'M -- AND I'M SORRY, I'M JUST A

                    LITTLE CONFUSED, IT'S A LONG TIME SINCE I WAS IN THE CRIMINAL COURTS OF THE

                    STATE OF NEW YORK.  AND WE HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN

                    SOMEONE COMES TO THE PRECINCT AND MAKES A COMPLAINT, BUT WHAT ABOUT

                    THE SCENARIO WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT IS OUT ON THE STREETS AND THEY

                    WITNESS, LET'S ASSUME, A ROBBERY.  AND THEY ARREST SOMEONE AND THE

                    VICTIM IS NOT CONVERSANT -- OR FULLY CONVERSANT IN ENGLISH.  IN ORDER FOR

                    THEM TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROPOSED LAW, IS IT GOING TO REQUIRE EXTRA

                    TIME TO BE ABLE TO LOCATE AN INTERPRETER AND THEN TO DO THE DEPOSITION

                    THAT THE INTERPRETER IS SUPPOSED TO EXECUTE BEFORE THE MATTER CAN GO TO

                    THE INITIAL JUDGE OR MAGISTRATE?

                                 MR. CRUZ:  DO YOU MEAN LIKE BEFORE THEY ARREST

                    THEM, EVEN IN YOUR SCENARIO THEY ACTUALLY SAW A CRIME OCCUR?

                                 MR. LAVINE:  THEY'VE ACTUALLY -- THEY SEE A CRIME

                    IN PROCESS.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  NO, THEY -- IT WOULDN'T HAVE TO WAIT.

                                         212



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    YOU KNOW, IF THEY SAW A CRIME HAPPEN, THE POLICE MAKE THE ARREST,

                    WHAT WOULD WE WOULD ASK IS THAT IN THAT INSTANCE IF THEY'RE GOING TO

                    ALSO TAKE A STATEMENT, BUT THEY ALSO SAW IT HAPPEN, FROM THE VICTIM

                    WHO DOESN'T --

                                 MR. LAVINE:  YES.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  -- SPEAK THE LANGUAGE, THEY DO

                    SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS PICK UP A PHONE AND CALL THE WHATEVER NUMBER

                    THEIR STATION HAS GIVEN THEM TO GET AN INTERPRETER, AND I'M GOING TO USE

                    THE EXAMPLE OF THE NYPD, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THEY HAVE LIKE A

                    CARD THAT HAS DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, THE PERSON POINTS TO IT, THEY CALL, THEY

                    GET THE INFORMATION, AND THESE COMPANIES ARE GENERALLY CERTIFIED

                    INTERPRETERS.  SO ALL THEY'D HAVE TO DO ONCE THEY DO ALL THE PAPERWORK IS

                    GET SOMETHING THAT SAYS WE TRANSLATED, IT'S CORRECT, AND EVERYBODY

                    KEEPS IT MOVING.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  AND THAT TRANSLATION, THAT DEPOSITION

                    BY THE INTERPRETER, SEPARATE DEPOSITION, THAT MUST ACCOMPANY WHATEVER

                    COURT PAPERS ARE FILED?

                                 MS. CRUZ:  YES.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 90TH

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                         213



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED FOR THE REASONS MENTIONED BY MY

                    COLLEAGUES.  THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT ARE CERTAINLY WELCOME TO VOTE YES

                    ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. HEVESI.

                                 MR. HEVESI:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THIS WILL

                    BE A PARTY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  ANY OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO WISH TO

                    VOTE NO, PLEASE CALL JOHN KNIGHT, I'LL GIVE YOU THE CELL NUMBER, IT'S 9 --

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 YOU CAN DO SO AT YOUR DESKS.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    HEVESI.

                                 MR. --  I'M SORRY.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. ANGELINO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. ANGELINO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO

                    EXPLAIN MY VOTE ON 9122.  COPS ON PATROL ARE DOING THE BEST THAT THEY

                    CAN ALL THE TIME, AND I HEARD A COUPLE OF TIMES, IT'S AS SIMPLE AS PICKING

                    UP A PHONE.  AND I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU, THERE'S SOMETIMES MAKING A

                    PHONE CALL IS AS SIMPLE AS DRIVING A PATROL CAR NINE MILES TO A HILLTOP TO

                    GET SERVICE.  THE -- THE SITUATION OF AN OFFICER ON PATROL COMING ACROSS

                    A CRIME IN PROGRESS, MAKING AN ARREST, WHICH HAS HAPPENED, WHERE YOU

                                         214



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SEE SOMETHING TAKING PLACE AND YOU'RE NOT NEAR A PHONE, YOU HAVE NO

                    SERVICE, YOU'RE DOING THE BEST YOU CAN, AND THEY MIGHT END UP WITH THE

                    ACTOR IN THE BACK SEAT AND THE VICTIM IN THE FRONT SEAT TRYING TO -- TRYING

                    TO GET TO A STATION.  THINGS ON THE ROAD ARE JUST NOT AS SIMPLE AS THEY

                    ARE HERE IN THE CHAMBERS, AS DESCRIBED.  I -- NOBODY WANTS TO DENY A

                    VICTIM THEIR RIGHT TO ACCUSE SOMEBODY, AND NOBODY WANTS TO TAKE AWAY

                    THE RIGHTS OF THE ACCUSED, AND I JUST ONLY HOPE THAT AN OFFICER ON PATROL

                    DOING THE BEST HE CAN USING A FAMILY MEMBER, OR THERE'S EVEN BEEN

                    CASES WHERE THE ACTOR HAS HELPED TRANSLATE WHAT IS BEING SAID, THAT WE

                    CAN GET SOMETHING ON PAPER THAT LATER ON CAN BE AN AMENDMENT IN

                    COURT.  BUT THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN OUT ON THE STREET, JUST -- ONE SIZE

                    DOES NOT FIT ALL AND WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS ROOM IS SO FAR DIFFERENT THAN

                    WHAT AN OFFICER ON PATROL IS GOING TO EXPERIENCE.  I APPRECIATE THE

                    CORDIALITIES THAT MYSELF AND THE SPONSOR HAD BACK AND FORTH.  I DID NOT

                    READ THE BILL AND I APPRECIATE HER ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS, BUT I'LL BE

                    VOTING NO.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ANGELINO IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MS. CRUZ TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. CRUZ:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I JUST WANT TO

                    REASSURE EVERYONE, THIS BILL IS MEANT TO ENSURE THAT OUR SYSTEM WORKS.

                    THE REALITY IS THAT PEOPLE IN NEW YORK SPEAK MORE THAN JUST ENGLISH,

                    AND SOMETIMES THEY DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL.  BUT THEY ALSO DESERVE

                    THE PROTECTIONS THAT OUR STATE PROVIDES, THEY DESERVE TO FEEL SAFE, AND

                    THEY DESERVE TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE POLICE WHEN THEY DON'T, AND HAVE

                                         215



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE PERSON WHO AGGRIEVED THEM ARRESTED IF THAT IS CASE.  AND THE PERSON

                    WHO IS ACCUSED ALSO DESERVES THEIR DAY IN COURT.  AND THIS IS DONE TO

                    ENSURE THAT WHATEVER IS DONE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE PROCESS IS ACCURATE,

                    IS CORRECT, AND IT LEADS TO JUSTICE.  WE ARE NOT DOING AN UNFUNDED

                    MANDATE, THERE'S ALREADY CONTRACTS WITH OGS.  WE'RE NOT ASKING POLICE

                    TO DO ANYTHING THAT MANY OF THEM AREN'T ALREADY DOING.  AND TO NOTE,

                    MANY POLICE OFFICERS ARE ACTUALLY TOLD BY THEIR PRECINCTS THAT THEY ARE

                    NOT ALLOWED TO BE INTERPRETERS BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE

                    IS AN INDEPENDENT PERSON THAT IS DOING THE TRANSLATION AND ENSURING ITS

                    ACCURACY.  THE ONLY THING THAT THIS BILL DOES IS SAY YOU NOW NEED TO

                    SIGN A LITTLE DOCUMENT THAT SAYS THIS IS ACCURATE, AND PROVIDE THAT

                    DOCUMENT SAYING THAT YOU ARE A -- A QUALIFIED INTERPRETER, AND THEN THAT

                    GOES ON WITH THE REST OF THE PROCESS IN COURT TO ENSURE THAT THE VICTIM

                    HAS JUSTICE AND THAT IF THE PERSON COMMITTED A CRIME, THEY HAVE ALL THE

                    INFORMATION NEEDED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.  THANK YOU, AND I'LL BE

                    VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. CRUZ IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. ZACCARO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE

                                 MR. ZACCARO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  IT IS A

                    UNIVERSAL TRUTH THAT NEW YORK IS A DIVERSE MULTILINGUAL MELTING POT

                    WHERE FROM AROUND THE WORLD -- FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AROUND THE WORLD

                    CALL OUR STATE HOME.  THIS CHAMBER HAS PASSED MANY BILLS WHOSE

                    INTENT IS TO INSIST NON-ENGLISH SPEAKERS ENSURE THAT THEY'RE TREATED

                    EQUALLY AND THAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE UPHELD AND THE BILL BEFORE US TODAY IS

                                         216



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NO DIFFERENT.  REQUIRING QUALIFIED TRANSLATORS TO BE PRESENT AND TO

                    TRANSLATE VERBAL OR WRITTEN STATEMENTS FROM A NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING

                    DEPONENT SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED AS OVERLY BURDENSOME.  BY ENACTING

                    THIS LEGISLATION WE'RE NOT ONLY UPHOLDING THE PRINCIPLES OF FAIRNESS AND

                    EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW BUT ALSO ENSURING THE INTEGRITY OF OUR LEGAL

                    SYSTEM.  I URGE ALL MY COLLEAGUES TO STAND ON THE SIDE OF JUSTICE TODAY

                    AND SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION.  AND BY DOING SO WE SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE

                    THAT IN OUR PURSUIT OF A MORE JUST SOCIETY NO ONE WILL BE LEFT BEHIND

                    BECAUSE OF THE LANGUAGE THAT THEY SPEAK.  I WANT TO THANK THE BILL

                    SPONSOR FOR HER WORK ON THIS BILL AND I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                    THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. ZACCARO IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 16, RULES REPORT NO. 268, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. S08136-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 268, SENATOR SANDERS (VANEL, BURDICK, SAYEGH--A09507).

                    AN ACT IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING THE NEW YORK STATE CRYPTOCURRENCY

                    AND BLOCKCHAIN STUDY TASK FORCE; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH

                    PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MR. VANEL.

                                 MR. VANEL:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  NEW YORK

                                         217



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IS ARGUABLY THE FINANCIAL CAPITAL OF THE WORLD.  AND MOST OF -- MOST --

                    AND MOST OF US MUST ENSURE THAT WE ARE HELPING TO FOSTER THE CREATION

                    OF AN ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWS AND CONTINUES US TO LEAD IN THE FINANCIAL

                    SECTOR.  NEW YORK -- THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE AND NASDAQ

                    ARE TWO OF THE WORLDS MOST VALUABLE STOCK EXCHANGES THAT ARE LOCATED

                    RIGHT IN NEW YORK.  HOWEVER, IT'S NOT GUARANTEED THAT WE REMAIN THE

                    SAME AND THAT WE REMAIN THE FINANCIAL LEADER.  IN REALITY, IN THE CURRENT

                    ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT, WE ARE COMPETING WITH LIKES OF LONDON,

                    TOYKO, SHANGHAI AND HONG KONG FOR FINANCIAL INVESTMENTS AND OUR

                    POSITION AS A FINANCIAL LEADER.  IN THE CURRENT DIGITAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL

                    WORLD, NEW YORK IS VYING FOR A FUTURE OF FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS AND

                    ACTIVITY WITH ALMOST EVERY GLOBAL MARKET AND STATE.  CRYPTOCURRENCIES

                    HAVE BEEN MAKING IN ROADS IN NEW YORK FOR OVER A DECADE.  A RISING

                    NUMBER OF BUSINESSES AROUND THE STATE ARE ACCEPTING CRYPTOCURRENCY

                    PAYMENTS, AND THROUGHOUT THE STATE THERE ARE A NUMBER OF

                    CRYPTOCURRENCY-RELATED INVESTMENTS, INVESTMENT COMPANIES AND

                    BUSINESSES.  BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT UNDERGIRDS THE

                    INDUSTRY.  ITS BENEFITS ARE DECENTRALIZATION, IMMUTABLE SECURITY,

                    TRANSPARENCY AMONGST OTHER THINGS.  THE BIT LICENSE WAS A LICENSE FOR

                    VIRTUAL CURRENCY ACTIVITIES IN NEW YORK STATE THAT WAS PROMULGATED BY

                    THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCIAL SERVICES IN 2015.  WE MUST THOROUGHLY

                    COMPREHEND THE IMPLICATIONS OF BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY, ITS IMPACT ON

                    INNOVATION, ITS POTENTIAL FOR JOBS AND ECONOMIC GROWTH, ENERGY

                    CONSUMPTION, ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES AND COMPETITION KNOWN TO

                    SUPPLEMENT THE BIT LICENSE WITH ITS CURVE FOR THE CORRECT LEGISLATIVE

                                         218



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FRAMEWORK.  NEW YORK MUST BE A STATE WHERE WE -- ONE, WHERE

                    CONSUMERS AND INVESTORS ARE SAFEGUARDED, WHERE MONEY LAUNDERING IS

                    PREVENTED, WHERE NEW YORKERS ARE PROTECTED FROM UNSCRUPULOUS USERS

                    AND ACTORS, WHERE EMPLOYMENT AND ECONOMIC GROWTH IS PROMOTED AND

                    WHERE THE TECHNOLOGY USES ARE -- ARE CONSIDERED.  THE BILL ESTABLISHES A

                    CRYPTOCURRENCY AND BLOCKCHAIN STUDY TASK FORCE, AND ITS GOAL IS TO

                    PROVIDE THE GOVERNOR AND THE LEGISLATURE WITH INFORMATION ON THE

                    EFFECTS OF THE WIDESPREAD USE OF CRYPTOCURRENCIES AND ANCILLARY

                    SYSTEMS INCLUDING BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  WOULD THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. VANEL, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. VANEL:  YES, I WILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. VANEL YIELDS, SIR.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  AS YOU NOTED, A

                    NUMBER OF YEARS AGO WE AUTHORIZED THE ISSUANCE OF CRYPTOCURRENCY, I

                    GUESS IT'S CALLED BIT LICENSES.  AM I CORRECT, THOUGH, THAT EVEN THOUGH

                    IT'S NOW BEEN SEVERAL YEARS LATER, NEW YORKERS ARE STILL NOT ALLOWED TO

                    UTILIZE SOME OF THE LARGEST BITCOIN COMPANIES OR -- OR EXCHANGES?

                                 MR. VANEL:  SO IN 2015 NEW YORK -- NEW YORK

                    PROMULGATED UNDER DFS THE BIT LICENSE.  AND SINCE THEN THE BIT

                    LICENSE THAT IS USED TO PROTECT NEW YORKERS FROM -- TO MAKE SURE THAT

                    WE PROTECT NEW YORKERS FROM UNSCRUPULOUS ACTORS, AND IN FACT WE

                                         219



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HAVE DONE SO. SINCE HAVING THE BIT LICENSE WE HAVE PROTECTED NEW

                    YORKERS FROM A LOT OF THE WORST SITUATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN HAPPENING IN

                    -- IN THE INDUSTRY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT AM I CORRECT THAT WE CURRENTLY

                    DON'T ALLOW NEW YORKERS TO PARTICIPATE IN PROMINENT EXCHANGES SUCH

                    AS BINANCE OR USC TORO OR EVEN VOYAGER, YES, OR EVEN CRYPTO.COM,

                    RIGHT?

                                 MR. VANEL:  YES, SO, YES.  SO NEW YORKERS ARE NOT

                    ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN MANY OTHER -- IN A NUMBER OF EXCHANGES THAT

                    HAVE NOT WORKED TO GO THROUGH DFS.  THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCIAL

                    SERVICES IS ONE OF THE PREMIERE, IF NOT THE PREMIERE AGENCIES AROUND

                    THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO CRYPTOCURRENCY PROTECTION AND -- AND --

                    AND -- AND REGULATIONS.  AND AS A MATTER OF FACT WE WORKED WITH THE

                    NEW YORK STATE -- DFS HAS WORKED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND

                    MANY OTHER GOVERNMENTS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT WE

                    PROPERLY PROTECT INVESTORS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  IN FACT, I THINK NEW YORK IS THE

                    ONLY STATE IN THE NATION THAT DOESN'T ALLOW PARTICIPATION IN CRYPTO.COM

                    EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE TEN MILLION CUSTOMERS.

                                 MR. VANEL:  NONETHELESS, YES.  AND NEW YORK IS --

                    NEW YORK IS ONE OF THE FIRST -- ONE OF THE ONLY STATES THAT PROTECTED --

                    AND I DON'T WANT TO NAME OTHER KINDS OF PLATFORMS THAT PROTECTED -- THAT

                    PROTECTED FOLKS FROM A LOT OF THE PLATFORMS THAT HAVE BEEN

                    UNSCRUPULOUS, SO THAT IS -- YES, THAT IS THE CASE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW THIS BILL WAS VETOED LAST YEAR

                                         220



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ALONG WITH I THINK 32 OTHERS ON THE GROUNDS THERE WASN'T ANY FUNDING

                    PROVIDED FOR THIS TASK FORCE.  HAS THAT ISSUE BEEN ADDRESSED?

                                 MR. VANEL:  AGAIN, SO THE -- -- THE -- THERE WERE

                    TASK FORCE THAT WERE APPROVED LAST -- LAST YEAR, AND ALSO THIS -- THIS BILL

                    WAS PASSED IN 2019 AND WE ACTUALLY WORKED AT THAT TIME.  THE ONLY

                    REASON WHY IT DIDN'T -- DIDN'T GO THROUGH WAS BECAUSE OF THE -- THE

                    UNFORTUNATE EVENTS IN 2020.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT AS FAR AS ADDRESSING THE

                    GOVERNOR'S VETO, THE FUNDING HAS BEEN INCLUDED IN THE BUDGET FOR THIS

                    TASK FORCE?

                                 MR. VANEL:  NO.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I SEE.  ONE LAST QUESTION, I SEE THAT

                    THERE ARE FOUR MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE TEMPORARY SENATE --

                    TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE AND FOUR MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE

                    SPEAKER OF THE ASSEMBLY BUT NO MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE MINORITY

                    EITHER IN THE SENATE OR THE ASSEMBLY.  WHY IS THAT?

                                 MR. VANEL:  IN THIS BILL IT DOESN'T SPECIFY ANY

                    MAJORITY OR MINORITY, SO IT DOESN'T SPECIFY ANY POLITICAL PARTIES.  AND IN

                    -- IN FACT, WHEN WE -- WHEN THE BILL WAS PASSED IN 2019 WE ACTUALLY

                    WORKED WITH THE MINORITY IN ORDER TO HELP FILL THE -- FILL THE POSITIONS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  BUT MY QUESTION IS, HOW COME

                    THERE ARE NO MEMBERS APPOINTED BY THE MINORITY LEADER IN THE

                    ASSEMBLY OR THE MINORITY LEADER IN THE SENATE, THAT ALL THE MEMBERS

                    ARE ONLY APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OR THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT?

                                 MR. VANEL:  SO IT -- IT JUST TALKED ABOUT THE POSITION

                                         221



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF THE LEADERS OF THE HOUSE, BUT IN PRACTICE WHEN WE WORKED ON THIS

                    WE WORKED WITH THE MINORITY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THOSE

                    QUESTIONS.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 17, RULES REPORT NO. 299, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. S01267-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 299, SENATOR BRESLIN (MCDONALD, STECK, STIRPE,

                    SANTABARBARA, THIELE, HEVESI, BURDICK, BEEPHAN, NORRIS, K. BROWN,

                    COLTON, BENDETT, GUNTHER, PAULIN, SEAWRIGHT, LEVENBERG, LAVINE,

                    LUNSFORD, ARDILA, COOK, REYES, MEEKS, SAYEGH, JACOBSON, SIMPSON,

                    DAVILA, LUPARDO, SIMON, GALLAHAN, RAGA, WEPRIN--A00901A).  AN ACT

                    TO AMEND THE INSURANCE LAW AND THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW, IN RELATION TO

                    REQUIRING A UTILIZATION REVIEW AGENT TO FOLLOW CERTAIN RULES WHEN

                    ESTABLISHING A STEP THERAPY PROTOCOL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MR. MCDONALD.

                                         222



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THIS

                    LEGISLATION WORKS TO STREAMLINE THE STEP THERAPY PROCESS.  MANY PEOPLE

                    ARE FAMILIAR WITH STEP THERAPY.  IT'S A VERY EFFECTIVE TOOL WHEN IT COMES

                    TO PRESCRIPTION THERAPY, BUT THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF CONCERNS THAT HAVE

                    BEEN RAISED OVER THE YEARS.  AS A PRACTICING PHARMACIST, I HAVE SEEN THE

                    VALUES, I HAVE ALSO SEEN THE CHALLENGES.  SO THERE'S MULTIPLE ITEMS THAT I

                    WOULD JUST TRY TO TIP THEM OFF BRIEFLY THAT IT TRIES TO ADDRESS.  IT

                    PROHIBITS THE USE OF OFF-LABEL MEDICATION TO BE USED AS PART OF STEP

                    THERAPY, DEFINES HOW MANY DRUGS PER THERAPEUTIC CATEGORY PER STEP

                    THERAPY BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL PRESCRIBED DRUG BY THE

                    PRACTITIONER, ALIGNS STEP THERAPY WITH EVIDENCE-BASED GUIDELINES,

                    DEFINES THE STEP THERAPY DURATION.  IT REDUCES THE ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN

                    FOR PROVIDERS.  WE'VE HEARD FROM A LOT OF PHYSICIANS, NURSE

                    PRACTITIONERS AND PAS ABOUT SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT IMPACTS THEIR

                    OFFICE AND ALSO IMPACTS THEIR PATIENTS' CARE.  IT STILL STRIVES TO ADDRESS

                    THE COST EFFECTIVENESS OF STEP THERAPY.  IT APPROVES PATIENT MEDICATION

                    ACCEPTANCE BECAUSE SOMETIMES PATIENTS GET DISCOURAGE WHEN THEY HEAR

                    --

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ONE MINUTE, MR.

                    MCDONALD.  MEMBERS, WE'RE ON DEBATE.

                                 SIR.

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  SO IT

                    IMPROVES BOTH MEDICATION ACCEPTANCE BECAUSE MANY TIMES PATIENTS GO

                    TO THE PHARMACY, THEY HEAR THERE'S STEP THERAPY AND THEY WALK AWAY

                    AND NEVER START THE MEDICATION.  IT ACTUALLY IMPROVES ADHERENCE AS

                                         223



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WELL.  AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR THOSE PATIENTS WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH

                    A STEP THERAPY REGIMEN BEFORE AND THEIR PLAN CHANGES, THEY CHANGE

                    THEIR PLAN, WHY DID THEY CHANGE THEIR PLAN, EXCUSE ME.  IF THE STEP

                    THERAPY REGIMEN IS SIMILAR WITH THE PRIOR PLAN, WE ESTABLISH A PROCESS

                    FOR IT TO BE AUTHORIZED WITHOUT THEM GOING THROUGH STEP THERAPY AGAIN.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BLUMENCRANZ.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. MCDONALD, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  YES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  YES, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO WITH REGARDS TO THE

                    PROCESS OF STEP THERAPY, HOW WILL IT -- CAN YOU JUST GIVE SOME OF YOUR

                    REASONING BEHIND REMOVING THE ABILITY TO USE OFF-LABELED DRUGS?

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THIS, I KNOW

                    YOU'RE RIGHT THERE, BUT I COULDN'T HEAR WHAT YOU SAID.  YOU SAID

                    SOMETHING ABOUT OFF-LABEL DRUGS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  WHAT WAS YOUR REASONING

                    BEHIND THE REMOVAL OF OFF-LABEL DRUGS?

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  SO, YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING

                    PART OF OFF-LABEL DRUGS IS VERY INTERESTING.  I CAN TELL YOU THAT, YOU

                    KNOW, AND THIS IS THE TIME TO EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRIOR

                    AUTHORIZATION AND STEP THERAPY.  MANY TIMES I HAD PATIENTS COMPLAIN

                                         224



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BECAUSE A PRESCRIBER WILL WRITE A PRESCRIPTION FOR SOMETHING THAT'S OFF

                    LABEL AND IT'S REJECTED ON OUR PRIOR APPROVAL, BUT THEN RARELY DOES THIS

                    HAPPEN, IT'S INCLUDED IN A STEP THERAPY REGIMEN.  THE BOTTOM LINE IS

                    OFF-LABEL MEANS THAT IT'S NOT APPROVED BY THE FDA.  IT DOES MEAN THAT

                    THERE'S INFORMATION OUT THERE THAT INDICATES IT MIGHT BE EFFECTIVE, BUT IN

                    THE PATIENT'S BEST INTEREST, AND ACTUALLY I THINK THE PLAN'S BEST INTEREST IN

                    MOST CIRCUMSTANCES, IT'S BEST TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR DELINEATED PROCESS

                    WITH MEDICATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE FOOD AND DRUG

                    ADMINISTRATION.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  NOW I'LL HAVE TO PUSH BACK

                    ON THAT A LITTLE BIT.  I'VE SEEN INSTANCES MYSELF FOR HEALTH CARE PLANS FOR

                    LARGE AND SMALL CORPORATIONS AND COMPANIES WHERE THE SUCCESSES -- THE

                    SUCCESS OF A STEP PROTOCOL ON A RARE DISEASE OR A CANCER PATIENT

                    SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED THE PRICE SO MUCH SO THAT THE PRICE FOR ALL

                    PARTICIPANTS WAS LOWER.  WOULD -- UNDER THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION,

                    WOULD THAT NOT BE THE CASE ANYMORE IF THAT PORTION OF THE STEP THERAPY

                    WAS NOT -- WAS AN OFF-LABEL DRUG?

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  SO LET ME GO BACK TO MY

                    ORIGINAL CONVERSATION ABOUT PRIOR APPROVAL AND STEP THERAPY.  YOU

                    KNOW, PLANS REALLY HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT AND I FOUND OUT IN THIS

                    CONVERSATION WITH MANY DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS, WITH MANY DIFFERENT

                    PLANS, EVERYBODY LIKES TO DO IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.  AND THEN THE

                    QUESTION IS, WHY DO WE DO IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY?  IS IT BECAUSE OF THE

                    CLINICAL OR THERAPEUTIC REASON, OR IS IT BECAUSE A -- A MONETARY REASON?

                    AND THE MONETARY REASON IS IS THAT FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PATIENT OR

                                         225



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    COULD IT BE FOR THE BENEFIT OF A REBATE GOING BACK TO THE PBM OR THE

                    PLAN?  SO, I CAN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTION A HUNDRED PERCENT CONFIDENTLY

                    BECAUSE THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS MOST STEP THERAPY PLANS ARE DESIGNED

                    THAT THE PATIENT HAS THE LEAST EXPENSIVE OPTION FIRST, WHICH USUALLY IS

                    THE LEAST EXPENSIVE OPTION FOR THE PATIENT.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M GOING TO JUST --

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  BUT IF -- IF -- JUST LET ME JUST

                    FINISH MY QUESTION, BUT IF PLAN A IS SAYING HEY, YOU GUYS (INAUDIBLE)

                    PRIOR AUTHORIZATION.  NO, WE CAN'T USE OFF-LABEL (INAUDIBLE) BUT ON THE

                    OTHER HAND STEP THERAPY WE'RE GOING TO USE IT, I THINK THAT CALLS INTO

                    QUESTION, IT ADDS A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS TO THE PROCESS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  WELL, I THINK RESPECTFULLY IN

                    CERTAIN CASES IT MAY BE NOT NECESSARILY A PRIOR AUTHORIZATION BUT HEALTH

                    CARE PLANS HAVE A MAIN OBJECTIVE OF -- OF MAKING SURE YOU GET BETTER TO

                    BEGIN WITH, BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT IS COST-EFFECTIVENESS AND THEY DO

                    WORK ON DRIVING THE COST OF PRICES DOWN BOTH FOR THE PLAN AND THE

                    PARTICIPANTS AS WELL AS FOR THE COMPANY ITSELF.  BUT WITH REGARDS TO THE

                    DURATION.  NOW IN CONSIDERATION OF SOME OF THESE DURATIONS, 30 DAYS, I

                    KNOW WHEN WE TALK ABOUT STEP THERAPY, IT'S NOT USUALLY FOR MENTAL

                    HEALTH TREATMENT, BUT IN THE CASES OF CERTAIN MENTAL HEALTH DRUGS AS

                    WELL AS OTHER DRUGS, SOMETIMES 30 DAYS IS NOT ENOUGH TO SEE WHETHER

                    OR NOT A DRUG WORKED OR DIDN'T WORK.  HOW WILL YOUR BILL AFFECT THIS

                    PROCESS?

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION AND

                    I SHOULD TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MENTION TO, YOU, YOU KNOW, THIS HAS

                                         226



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BEEN A TWO YEAR PROCESS ON THIS BILL.  YES, THERE ARE ADVOCACY GROUPS

                    PROMOTING THIS BILL, BUT AT THE SAME TOKEN THE HEALTH PLANS HAVE -- HAVE

                    REQUESTED A LOT OF IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS OF WHICH I HAVE CONSIDERED

                    THE MAJORITY OF THEM, AND THIS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE.  THE BILL ORIGINALLY

                    DRAFTED SPOKE PRIMARILY TO ONLY A 30-DAY DURATION OF PRESCRIPTION

                    MEDICATION, IN OTHER WORDS A 30-DAY TRIAL, AND I PUSHED BACK IN THE

                    ADVOCACY GROUP SAYING TO BE CLEAR, AN ANTIDEPRESSANT IS A GREAT

                    EXAMPLE OF WHICH YOU ALLUDED TO, IT SOMETIMES TAKE SIX, EIGHT, 12

                    WEEKS FOR A MEDICATION TO BE EFFECTIVE, AND THAT'S WHY WE INCLUDED

                    LANGUAGE IN HERE UNDER SECTION 15, SUBSECTION 3, REQUIRE THE USE OF

                    STEP THERAPY REQUIRED FOR LONGER THAN 30 DAYS OR A DURATION OF

                    TREATMENTS SUPPORTED BY CURRENT EVIDENCE-BASED TREATMENT GUIDELINES

                    APPROPRIATE TO THE SPECIFIC DISEASE STATE BEING TREATED.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  OKAY.  WITH REGARDS TO THE

                    -- SORRY, ONE SECOND.

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  TAKE YOUR TIME.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  ALL RIGHT.  I THINK THAT'S --

                    THAT'S ABOUT IT FOR MY QUESTIONS FOR NOW.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 120TH

                    DAY.



                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                                         227



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    WITH REGARDS TO THE BILL, I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SOME TROUBLE WITH THE

                    WAY THAT STEP THERAPY IS PERFORMED CURRENTLY.  I THINK ALL OF US HAVE

                    SEEN THE FRUSTRATIONS, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEONE GOES FROM ONE

                    HEALTHCARE PLAN TO ANOTHER AND THEY'RE LED IN A LOOP WHERE THEY HAVE TO

                    THEN GO THROUGH ANOTHER STEP THERAPY WHERE THEY CAN EVEN BE TAKING

                    THE SAME DRUGS.  AFTER SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH THE SPONSOR AND A LITTLE

                    BIT OF BACK AND FORTH AND THE LANGUAGE OF THE BILL, I -- I FEEL LIKE THIS

                    BILL DOES SUFFICIENTLY TACKLE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT MANY PEOPLE FACE

                    IN OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM TODAY.  SO I'M HAPPY TO SUPPORT THIS PIECE OF

                    LEGISLATION.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. MCDONALD TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND I

                    APPRECIATE THE COMMENTS OF MY COLLEAGUE BUT ALSO ALL THOSE WHO ARE

                    SUPPORTING THIS LEGISLATION.  I WANT TO THANK ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS

                    INVOLVED.  YOU KNOW, WE MENTIONED THE HEALTH PLANS A LOT.  THEY HAVE

                    BEEN VERY HELPFUL.  ALTHOUGH, I THINK THERE ARE STILL SOME AREAS OF

                    CONCERN.  IN REGARDS TO REALLY GETTING US TO A SPOT THAT REALLY I THINK IS A

                    GOOD FIRST EFFORT AT COMING TO A SOLID COMPROMISE, I FIRMLY BELIEVE THE

                    PATIENTS HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE BATTERY OF STEP THERAPY BEFORE AND THEY

                    SWITCH PLANS.  A SIMPLE NOTE FROM THE DOCTOR, WHICH IS WHAT THIS

                                         228



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LEGISLATION CLARIFIES MAKES PERFECT SENSE.  I THINK THE FACT THAT WE'VE

                    ACTUALLY LOOKED AT EVIDENCE-BASED GUIDELINES AS BEING THE

                    DETERMINATION OF THE DURATION OF STEP THERAPY MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

                                 SO, ONCE AGAIN, I APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT OF MY

                    COLLEAGUES.  MR. SPEAKER, I APPRECIATE THE HARD WORK OF OUR STAFF WHO

                    HELPED US WORK THROUGH THIS PROCESS AS WELL AND I AM VOTING IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. MCDONALD IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 18, RULES REPORT NO. 324, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. S02124, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 324, SENATOR RIVERA (PAULIN, SAYEGH --A07725).  AN ACT TO AMEND

                    THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO ALLOWING PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS TO

                    SERVE AS PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS FOR PURPOSES OF MEDICAID-MANAGED

                    CARE PLANS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MS. PAULIN.

                                 MS. PAULIN:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THE BILL

                    WOULD ALLOW PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS TO SERVE AS PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS

                    FOR THE PURPOSES OF MEDICAID-MANAGED CARE PLANS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. WALSH.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                                         229



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR JUST A FEW QUESTIONS?

                                 MS. PAULIN:  ABSOLUTELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. PAULIN YIELDS.

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  SO UNDER OUR

                    CURRENT LAW PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS HAVE TO WORK UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF

                    AN MD, CORRECT?

                                 MS. PAULIN:  YES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  AND DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW IF THAT

                    SUPERVISION IS -- HAS TO BE ON SITE OR CONTINUOUS OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT

                    THE NATURE OF THAT SUPERVISION, WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE?

                                 MS. PAULIN:  YES.  IT'S -- THE RATIO IS 6:1 IN A

                    HOSPITAL AND THERE'S USUALLY SOME WHITE COAT AROUND, BUT THAT DOESN'T

                    HAVE TO BE OVER ON TOP OF THEM OR IN THE SAME ROOM.  SAME IS TRUE

                    WHEN IT'S IN A PRIVATE PRACTICE.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  SO DOES THIS -- SO NOW THIS BILL

                    ONLY APPLIES TO THE MEDICAID PROGRAM, CORRECT?

                                 MS. PAULIN:  YES.

                                 MS. WALSH:  ALL RIGHT.  SO IF -- IF A PHYSICIAN'S

                    ASSISTANT WISH TO AFTER THIS BILL, COULD THEY KIND OF HANG OUT THEIR

                    SHINGLE AND HAVE THEIR OWN FAMILY PRACTICE AND THEN JUST HAVE THAT

                    RELATIONSHIP WITH MAYBE AN OFF-SITE DOC THAT'S GOING TO REVIEW THEIR

                    FILES PERIODICALLY AND PROVIDE ADVICE OR WHATEVER?

                                 MS. PAULIN:  ALL THIS BILL REALLY DOES IS IT -- IT

                    REQUIRES OR IT WILL FORCE MEDICAID-MANAGED CARE IN THEIR BROCHURES TO

                    ALLOW MEDICAID PATIENTS TO CHOOSE, YOU KNOW, A PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT AS

                                         230



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OPPOSED TO A -- TO A PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR.  PARTLY THEY CAN DO THAT NOW,

                    BUT IT'S JUST NOT IN THE BROCHURE SO THAT PATIENTS ARE UNAWARE AND OFTEN

                    HAVE VERY LONG WAIT TIMES FOR THE DOCTORS THAT THEY MIGHT CHOOSE.  SO

                    THIS WAY IT JUST GIVES MORE OPTIONS FOR MEDICAID CLIENTS.  IT DOESN'T

                    CHANGE ANY OF THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT CURRENTLY EXIST.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  AND AS I BELIEVE YOU SAID

                    BEFORE BUT JUST TO REITERATE, DOES THIS BILL ALSO THEN PREVENT A

                    PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT TO BILL MEDICAID DIRECTLY FOR THE SERVICES THAT THEY

                    PROVIDE TO A PATIENT?

                                 MS. PAULIN:  THE BILLING ARRANGEMENT DOESN'T

                    CHANGE.

                                 MS. WALSH:  OKAY.  WELL, THAT -- SO THAT'S MY -- I

                    GUESS REALLY MY LAST AREA OF QUESTIONING IS THAT THERE WAS AN IDENTICAL

                    BILL CARRIED BY A FORMER ASSEMBLYMEMBER GOTTFRIED THAT WAS VETOED IN

                    2022 BY THE GOVERNOR, WHO CLAIMED THAT THE BILL WOULD RESULT IN A

                    COMPLICATED AND COSTLY BILLING CHANGE FOR MEDICAID CLAIM SUBMISSION.

                    I MEAN, THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING.  YOU'RE

                    SAYING IT WOULDN'T CHANGE AT ALL.

                                 MS. PAULIN:  RIGHT.  WE DON'T BELIEVE IT WILL, AND IN

                    FACT IN THAT SAME VETO MESSAGE THE --- THE EXECUTIVE DID COMMIT TO

                    WORKING WITH THE PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS TO ALLOW WHAT WE'RE HOPING THIS

                    BILL WILL ALLOW, AND THEN THERE WAS JUST NO COOPERATION AND -- AND THERE

                    WAS NOTHING HAPPENED AFTER THAT VETO MESSAGE.  SO WE FEEL THE NEED TO

                    PUT IT OUT AGAIN BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE A BACKLOG OF WAIT TIMES FOR

                    MEDICAID CLIENTS IN TERMS OF IDENTIFYING AND CHOOSING AND SEEING A

                                         231



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN OR PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT.

                                 MS. WALSH:  VERY GOOD.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

                                 MS. WALSH:  SO VERY BRIEFLY, I APPRECIATE THE -- THE

                    SHORT DEBATE THAT WE HAD.  I -- I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT WHEN WE HAVE

                    SUCH A SHORTAGE OF MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS TO ASSIST PARTICULARLY PEOPLE

                    WHO ARE UTILIZING THE MEDICAID PROGRAM.  I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE

                    DO WHAT WE CAN TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF CHOICES THAT THESE

                    INDIVIDUALS HAVE IN SEEKING TIMELY CARE.  I MEAN I'VE BEEN HEARING, I'M

                    SURE YOU HAVE, TOO, ABOUT SIGNIFICANT WAIT TIMES THAT PATIENTS ARE

                    EXPERIENCING, TRYING TO EVEN GET IN TO SEE ANYBODY.  SO I KNOW THAT

                    THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CONCERNS RAISED BY THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY.

                    THE REASON WHY I REALLY WANTED TO ASK ABOUT WHETHER THIS BILL CHANGED

                    THE -- THE WAY THAT THINGS ARE SET UP NOW WITH AN OVERSEEING DOC AND

                    I'M REASSURED BY THE FACT THAT FOR RIGHT NOW ANYWAY, THAT THAT IS STILL THE

                    -- THE CURRENT SITUATION, BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE AMOUNT OF

                    TRAINING THAT EACH MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL HAS RECEIVED FROM PHYSICIAN, TO

                    NURSE PRACTITIONER, TO PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT AND WE WANT TO ASSURE THAT

                    IN ADDITION TO PROVIDING EXCESS -- ACCESS TO CARE, WE ALSO WANT TO

                    MAINTAIN A HIGH-QUALITY OF CARE AND I THINK THAT THIS BILL STRIKES THAT

                    APPROPRIATE BALANCE AND I'M VERY PLEASED TO SUPPORT IT.  THANK YOU

                    VERY MUCH, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                         232



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE CLERK WILL RECORD

                    THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. MCDONALD TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. MCDONALD:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I WANT

                    TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR THIS LEGISLATION.  YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING.  I

                    STILL PRACTICE PHARMACY SO I SEE A LOT OF PATIENTS, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT

                    IF I ASKED THE MAJORITY OF THEM WHO'S YOUR PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER MANY

                    OF THEM DON'T.  THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THEM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.  THIS IS A

                    VERY SIMPLE PIECE OF LEGISLATION.  I COMMEND MY COLLEAGUES FOR

                    CLARIFYING SOME OF THE CONCERNS, BUT IT ALSO SPEAKS TO ONE OF THE LARGER

                    ISSUES.  WE DO HAVE A VERY GOOD JOB OF BUILDING A LOT OF SILENCE IN THIS

                    STATE WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH CARE AND THAT'S UNDERSTANDABLE, EVERYONE

                    HAS WORKED HARD TO EARNED A DEGREE FOR WHATEVER IT MAY BE WHETHER IT'S

                    PHYSICIAN, NURSE PRACTITIONER, PSYCHIATRIST, WHATEVER IT MAY BE.  BUT AT

                    THE END OF THE DAY I JUST INVITE YOU TO COME OVER SOME NIGHT, LIKE MANY

                    OF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE DONE, TO GO VISIT THE ALBANY MED ER OR ST.

                    PETERS ER.  THE TWO LONGEST WAIT TIMES IN THE STATE IF YOU GO THERE.

                    NOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE THAT ARE THERE FOR AN EMERGENT SITUATION.

                    THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T FEEL WELL

                    AND THEY NEED TO SEE SOMEBODY.  HAVING A PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER WILL

                    NOT SOLVE ALL THOSE PROBLEMS, BUT IT'S ANOTHER VALUABLE TOOL TO THIS

                    SOLUTION AND I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND AS WE GO FORWARD AS

                    WE WORK WITH OUR COLLEAGUES AND WE WORK WITH THE EDUCATION

                                         233



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DEPARTMENT BECAUSE I KNOW IT'S VERY DIFFICULT DEALING WITH ALL THE TURF

                    ISSUES THAT COME ABOUT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY OUR MAIN PRIORITY IS

                    PROTECTING AND CARING FOR THE PUBLIC.  THEREFORE, I SUPPORT THIS

                    LEGISLATION.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. MCDONALD IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                               (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 18, RULES REPORT NO. 326, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08333-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 326, BORES, GLICK, EPSTEIN, SHIMSKY, LEVENBERG, PAULIN,

                    SIMON, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, MEEKS.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW,

                    IN RELATION TO DEFINING PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS AND REQUIRING THE

                    DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES TO CERTIFY THE TECHNOLOGICAL

                    VIABILITY OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS AND TO ESTABLISH REQUIREMENTS

                    RELATED TO THE SALE OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MR. BORES.

                                 MR. BORES:  CERTAINLY.  MR. SPEAKER, THIS BILL

                    DIRECTS THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES TO DO TWO THINGS.

                    FIRST, IT MUST WITHIN 180 DAYS OF ITS EFFECTIVE DATE INVESTIGATE THE

                    VIABILITY OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS AND SECOND, IF IT FINDS THAT THEY ARE

                    VIABLE, IT MUST ESTABLISH CRITERIA FOR TESTING THE GUNS AND THEN MAINTAIN

                    A LIST OF SUCH GUNS.

                                         234



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. MORINELLO.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL

                    THE SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BORES, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. BORES:  IT WOULD BE MY HONOR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BORES YIELDS, SIR.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  ARE THERE CURRENTLY ANY

                    HANDGUN MANUFACTURERS IN NEW YORK STATE?

                                 MR. BORES:  ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT PERSONALIZED

                    HANDGUNS OR HANDGUNS IN GENERAL?

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  HANDGUNS IN GENERAL.

                                 MR. BORES:  YES, THERE ARE.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  ALL RIGHT, AND WHICH ONE IS IT,

                    PLEASE?

                                 MR. BORES:  THREE THAT COME TO MIND, DAN WESSON

                    WHICH IS BASED IN NORWICH, NEW YORK MADE ABOUT 7,000 1911 STYLE

                    PISTOLS IN 2022, THE MOST RECENT YEAR I HAVE DATA.  ORISKANY ARMS

                    BASED IN ORISKANY, MADE 441, ALLEN ARMS TACTICAL IN NEWARK VALLEY,

                    THEY MADE 39 PISTOLS.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  THANK YOU.  HAVE ANY OF THESE

                    COMPANIES BEEN CONTACTED AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE TECHNOLOGY

                    NECESSARY FOR THE PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS HAS BEEN PERFECTED?

                                 MR. BORES:  I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THOSE THREE

                    COMPANIES.  I HAVE SPOKEN TO MANUFACTURERS OF PERSONALIZED HANDGUNS,

                                         235



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THEY'RE JUST IN OTHER STATES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  AND WHAT HAS THE RESULTS OF

                    THOSE CONVERSATIONS BEEN?

                                 MR. BORES:  SO ONE OF THEM IS SELLING DIRECT TO

                    CONSUMERS IN ALL 50 STATES INCLUDING NEW YORK AND HAS PURCHASES

                    THEREOF.  ANOTHER ONE HAS BEEN SELLING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT

                    ORGANIZATIONS SPECIFICALLY AND HAS HAD I BELIEVE SIX LAW ENFORCEMENT

                    ORGANIZATIONS TEST OUT THESE WEAPONS BASED IN KANSAS, TEXAS AND A FEW

                    OTHER STATES.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  AND WHAT HAS BEEN THE

                    EXPERIENCE?  LET ME REPHRASE THAT.  HAVE THEY EXPERIENCED ANY

                    DIFFICULTIES WITH THE UTILIZATION OF THAT PARTICULAR PERSONALIZED

                    HANDGUN?

                                 MR. BORES:  I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY DIFFICULTIES THAT

                    HAVE ARISEN.  THOUGH I'M SURE LIKE ANY TECHNOLOGY, THAT'S WHY IT'S

                    IMPORTANT TO TEST.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  THANK YOU.  HOW DOES THE BILL

                    ENVISION THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL SERVICES ACCOMPLISH THIS TASK?

                                 MR. BORES:  LARGELY THAT'S UP TO THE DIVISION, THEY

                    ARE THE EXPERTS IN GATHERING THESE STATISTICS AND IN DOING THESE TESTS AND

                    SO WE LEAVE THEM A LARGE AMOUNT OF DISCRETION IN COMING UP WITH THOSE

                    CRITERIA.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  DOES THE BILL HAVE ANY FINANCIAL

                    CONSIDERATIONS NECESSARY FOR THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE TO CARRY

                    OUT THE TASK?

                                         236



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BORES:  NO.  WE THINK THEY'LL BE MINIMAL IF

                    ANY COST IN DOING THIS.  THEY ALREADY HAVE THE EMPLOYEES AND STAFF TO

                    CARRY IT OUT.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  OKAY.  THAT'S IT.  THANK YOU.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    MORINELLO.

                                 MR. MORINELLO:  I JUST DID A QUICK SEARCH WHILE I

                    WAS WAITING TO DEBATE THIS BILL REGARDING THE RELIABILITY OF PERSONALIZED

                    HANDGUNS AND WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT AT THIS POINT THE -- THEY HAVE NOT

                    BEEN PERFECTED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN BECOME RELIABLE.  I BELIEVE

                    THAT WE ARE PREMATURE ON THIS AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD BE WASTING

                    VALUABLE RESOURCES WITH THE BUREAU OF DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE

                    WITH ALL THE ADDITIONAL DUTIES THEY HAVE AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT, TO PUT

                    THIS UPON THEM TO ADD THIS TO THEIR LIST.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  THANK

                    YOU, MR. BORES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. DIPIETRO.

                                 MR. DIPIETRO:  ON THE BILL, SIR.  I JUST WANTED TO

                    REITERATE WHAT MY COLLEAGUE SAID THAT IN TALKING WITH PEOPLE IN THIS

                    INDUSTRY THAT THE TECHNOLOGY IS SO FAR NOT ADVANCE -- ADVANCED, SO TO

                    SPEAK, THAT IT'S JUST COMING OUT THAT TO PUT ANY KIND OF REQUIREMENTS AS

                    OF TODAY, WITHIN THREE MONTHS OR ONE YEAR THEY COULD ALL BE CHANGED.

                    SO WE'RE A LITTLE PREMATURE ON THIS AND WE NEED TO SEE WHERE THIS

                    TECHNOLOGY GOES.  SO I JUST WANTED TO JUST MAKE MY THOUGHTS AND LET

                    YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS VERY CLOSELY.

                                         237



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 SO THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  KNOCK, KNOCK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. BYRNES.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  THANK YOU.  I WAS WORRIED YOU DIDN'T

                    SEE ME.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  JUST TRYING TO CATCH

                    UP WITH MYSELF, MS. BYRNES.  GO AHEAD.

                                 MS. BYRNES:  ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREE.  JUST ON

                    THE BILL.  THE ONLY THING I WANT TO SAY IS WHILE I WILL BE VOTING NO, AND I

                    VEHEMENTLY OPPOSE IT, THAT WHEN IT COMES TO DOING ANY TYPE OF

                    RESEARCHING AND THE TECHNOLOGY, OR HOW EVEN POTENTIALLY THIS COULD BE

                    DONE IN THE FUTURE, I THINK SOMETHING THAT IF -- IF YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS,

                    AND APPARENTLY YOU'RE GOING TO, SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO, AND THE

                    STATE POLICE OR DCJS, WHOEVER IS DOING THE INVESTIGATION, WOULD HAVE

                    TO BE COGNIZANT OF IS THAT MANY HANDGUNS ARE CO-OWNED.  THERE IS

                    MORE THAN ONE OWNER.  LIKE, IN MANY OCCASIONS, SPOUSES OWN THE SAME

                    GUN AND HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO POSSESS THE SAME GUN.  AND IF SMART

                    TECHNOLOGY EVENTUALLY GETS TO A POINT WHERE IT CAN HANDLE A FINGERPRINT

                    FOR ONE PERSON, IS IT GOOD ENOUGH THAT IT WOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT FOR

                    MORE -- TWO OR MORE PEOPLE THAT MAY ALL BE LAWFUL OWNERS OF THAT SAME

                    HANDGUN?  SO THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE IS ON THE RECORD SO THAT IF

                    IT IS DONE, IT'S DONE PROPERLY.

                                 THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, MS.

                    BYRNES.

                                         238



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS -- THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT

                    IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED.  THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT CAN VOTE YES

                    ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MS. SOLAGES.

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THE

                    MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THOSE WHO

                    WISH TO VOTE AGAINST THE MEASURE CAN DO SO NOW AT THEIR DESK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. BORES TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. BORES:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THIS IS THE

                    RARE GUN BILL THAT I THINK EVERYONE CAN SUPPORT; IN FACT, THE NRA AND

                    THE NSSF HAD SAID THAT THEY DO NOT OPPOSE BILLS THAT HAVE THE

                    GOVERNMENT RESEARCHING THIS TECHNOLOGY AS LONG AS THERE ARE NO

                    MANDATES, AND THERE ARE NO MANDATES IN THIS BILL.  PERSONALIZED

                    HANDGUNS HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE US SAFER IN AT LEAST THREE WAYS:  FIRST

                    OF ALL, THEY CUT DOWN ON GUN TRAFFICKING BECAUSE A STOLEN GUN THAT IS A

                                         239



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SMART GUN CANNOT BE USED IN ANY ADDITIONAL CRIMES.  THERE WERE OVER

                    10,000 GUNS STOLEN JUST IN NEW YORK STATE FROM 2012 TO 2017.

                    SECOND, IT CUTS DOWN ON ACCIDENTS IN THE HOME.  WE WERE TRAGICALLY

                    REMINDED OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ON SUNDAY WHEN A 14-YEAR-OLD AND

                    A 12-YEAR-OLD WERE PLAYING WITH A GUN IN BROOKLYN AND THE

                    14-YEAR-OLD SHOT AND KILLED HIS 12-YEAR-OLD COUSIN.  IF THESE GUNS WERE

                    SMART GUNS, THAT CHILD WOULD STILL BE ALIVE.  AND THIRD, THEY BENEFIT

                    ANYONE IN A CLOSE QUARTER ENCOUNTER WHERE THE LARGEST RISK WILL BE

                    TAKING THEIR GUN OFF OF THEM, SUCH AS COURT BAILIFFS OR PRISONER

                    TRANSPORT.  MY GRANDFATHER WAS AN NYPD OFFICER, MY UNCLE IS A RETIRED

                    STATE TROOPER, ADMITTEDLY FROM JERSEY, AND MY COUSIN'S A PARAMUS PD

                    OFFICER AND THEY ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE FEAR OF THEIR SIDEARM BEING USED

                    AGAINST THEM.  THE MOST RECENT DATA FROM 2013 SHOWED THAT TEN

                    PERCENT OF POLICE OFFICERS THAT WERE SHOT AND KILLED ON THE JOB WERE

                    SHOT WITH THEIR OWN HANDGUN, AND THAT INCLUDES THE FIRST FEMALE NYPD

                    OFFICER THAT WAS SHOT -- THAT WAS KILLED ON THE JOB.

                                 SO THIS BILL JUST LAYS THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE STATE -- OR

                    FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ORGANIZATIONS TO PURCHASE THESE GUNS, THE SAME

                    WAY AT LEAST SIX ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES HAVE ACROSS KANSAS AND TEXAS.

                    AND WHILE I'VE HEARD THAT PERHAPS IT'S AHEAD OF THE CURVE, AND THAT WAS

                    TRUE FOR 25 YEARS, WE'RE NOW BEHIND IT.  THESE GUNS ARE ON SALE IN THE

                    U.S. AS OF 2023, WHICH WASN'T TRUE IN PREVIOUS DEBATES BUT IS TRUE NOW,

                    AND IS WHY WE DESPERATELY NEED THIS BILL.  AND TO MY GOOD COLLEAGUE'S

                    QUESTION ABOUT MAKING SURE THEY CAN WORK FOR MULTIPLE USERS, THAT

                    TECHNOLOGY ACTUALLY ALREADY EXISTS AND YOU CAN LOOK AT A DEMO OF

                                         240



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    MANY OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES THAT ALLOW YOU TO RECORD MULTIPLE PEOPLE'S

                    FINGERPRINTS.

                                 I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  MR. BORES IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 MS. SOLAGES.

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, AND WE

                    APPRECIATE OUR COLLEAGUES' PATIENCE AS WE CONTINUE OUR WORK.  WE HAVE

                    A LIST OF BILLS THAT WE'RE GONNA GO THROUGH, STARTING WITH RULES REPORT

                    NO. 171 BY MS. SOLAGES; THEN RULES REPORT 213 BY MR. KIM; THEN

                    RULES REPORT 275 BY MR. SIMONE; THEN RULES REPORT 308 BY MS. FAHY;

                    THEN RULES REPORT 312 BY MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS; THEN WE'RE GONNA

                    MOVE ON TO RULES REPORT 333 BY MR. HEVESI; THEN RULES REPORT 344

                    BY MR. BURDICK; THEN WE MOVE ON TO RULE -- TO CALENDAR NO. 47 BY

                    MS. SIMONE AND -- I'M SORRY, MS. SIMON; AND THEN CALENDAR NO. 98 BY

                    MS. -- MS. PHEFFER AMATO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  PAGE 10, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 171.  ON A MOTION BY MS. -- THE CLERK WILL READ


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A07636-C, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 171, SOLAGES, SHRESTHA, DINOWITZ, SIMON, BLANKENBUSH,

                    REYES, L. ROSENTHAL, TAYLOR, SIMONE.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE REAL

                    PROPERTY LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING THE HOMEOWNER PROTECTION

                                         241



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PROGRAM.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MS. SOLAGES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 AN EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MS. SOLAGES.

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  THANK YOU.  THIS BILL WOULD

                    ESTABLISH AND CODIFY THE HOMEOWNER'S PROTECTION PROGRAM, HOPP, TO

                    PROVIDE FREE HOUSING COUNSEL AND LEGAL SERVICES TO HOMEOWNERS RELATED

                    TO HOMEOWNERSHIP RETENTION, SUCH AS PREVENTING FORECLOSURE AND DEED

                    THEFT.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  WOULD THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  MS. SOLAGES, WILL

                    YOU YIELD?

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  YES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  THE SPONSOR

                    YIELDS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, MS. SOLAGES.  I SEE

                    THROUGHOUT THIS BILL IT REFERENCES THE PROVISION OF FREE SERVICES, FREE

                    LEGAL SERVICES, FREE HOUSING COUNSELING AND VARIOUS OTHER FREE SERVICES.

                    HOW MUCH DOES THIS PROGRAM COST?

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  SO, YOU KNOW, HOPP FOR -- FOR

                    YEARS HAS BEEN PROVIDING FREE LEGAL SERVICES TO HOMEOWNERS RELATED TO,

                    YOU KNOW, FORECLOSURE AND OTHER ISSUES, AND THE YEARS VARY DEPENDING

                                         242



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ON THE NEED.  AND SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THIS BUDGET CYCLE WE ALLOCATED

                    $40 MILLION FOR HOPP.  AND SO, YOU KNOW, NEXT YEAR IT MIGHT BE

                    DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE NEED.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  OKAY, THANK YOU.

                                 ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  ON THE BILL, MR.

                    GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THIS -- THIS BILL IS AIMED AT

                    CONTINUING THE HOMEOWNERSHIP -- HOMEOWNER PROTECTION PROGRAM,

                    AND AS THE SPONSOR MENTIONED, IT PROVIDES FREE LEGAL SERVICES AND

                    COUNSELING TO HELP PEOPLE THAT ARE AT RISK OF LOSING THEIR HOME.  AND

                    THAT WOULD INCLUDE HELPING HOMEOWNERS RESPOND TO MORTGAGE

                    FORECLOSURES WHEN THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING THEIR MORTGAGE;

                    MANDATORY SETTLEMENT CONFERENCES WHEN THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING THEIR

                    MORTGAGE ON TIME; FREE ESTATE PLANNING TO PRESUMABLY PROTECT THEIR

                    HOME; LEGAL SERVICE TO PREVENT AVOIDABLE FORECLOSURES AND

                    DISPLACEMENT; ASSISTANCE WITH RESOLVING PROPERTY TAX, UTILITY AND

                    BUILDING CODE VIOLATIONS, DEBTS AND LIENS.

                                 SO IT'S -- I JUST FIND IT JUST A LITTLE BIT IRONIC, PERHAPS,

                    THAT THESE FREE SERVICES COSTS US 40 MILLION.  SO WE'RE USING 40 MILLION

                    IN TAX DOLLARS SO THAT WE CAN PROVIDE FREE LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO

                    INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN CITED BY THEIR LOCAL MUNICIPALITY FOR

                    BUILDING CODE VIOLATIONS.  AND THINK ABOUT THAT.  WE'RE USING 40

                    MILLION TO DEFEND PEOPLE WHO ARE VIOLATING THE BUILDING CODE AND BEEN

                    CITED.  WE USE 40 MILLION TO DEFEND THEM ON UTILITY DEBTS AND LIENS THAT

                                         243



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ARE PICKED UP BY OUR UTILITY COMPANIES AND PASSED ON TO THE

                    RATEPAYERS.  WE USE 40 MILLION TO DEFEND PEOPLE WHO AREN'T PAYING

                    THEIR MORTGAGES, WHICH MAKES IT HARDER FOR A BANK TO FORECLOSE AND THE

                    BANK PASSES ON THOSE ADDITIONAL COSTS TO US IN HIGHER INTEREST RATES.

                    AND SO WE'RE USING 40 MILLION TO HELP PEOPLE WHO AREN'T MAINTAINING

                    THEIR PROPERTY, THAT ARE A NUISANCE TO THEIR NEIGHBORS, WHO AREN'T PAYING

                    THEIR UTILITIES AND AREN'T PAYING THEIR MORTGAGES.  THAT'S AN INTERESTING

                    USE OF MONEY.

                                 I THINK EVERYBODY DESERVES LEGAL REPRESENTATION, BUT I

                    WOULD ALSO POINT OUT, BY THE WAY, ONE OF THE SAD THINGS ABOUT THIS BILL,

                    AND IT'S NOT A DIRECT COMPLAINT ABOUT THE BILL, BUT IT'S A REFLECTION OF

                    WHERE WE ARE IN NEW YORK STATE.  PRIOR TO 2008, IF YOU DID A MORTGAGE

                    FORECLOSURE IT TOOK TYPICALLY SIX TO NINE MONTHS FOR A MORTGAGE

                    FORECLOSURE.  AND I WAS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE AND SOMEONE WOULD COME

                    TO ME AND SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M THE DEFENDANT IN A MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE,

                    WHAT SHOULD I DO?  SO I'D ASK A FEW SIMPLE QUESTIONS - THE FIRST

                    QUESTION, CAN YOU PAY THE MORTGAGE?  CAN YOU CATCH IT UP, CAN YOU

                    KEEP IT CURRENT?  IF THE ANSWER WAS NO, AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT -- NOT

                    BEING JUDGMENTAL, I MEAN, THEY MAY HAVE LOST A JOB OR WHATEVER-- IF

                    THE ANSWER IS NO THEN MY NEXT WOULD BE, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN

                    PAYING ON THE MORTGAGE?  IF THEY'VE BEEN PAYING FOR SEVERAL YEARS ON

                    THE MORTGAGE, MY NEXT SUGGESTION TO THEM WOULD BE, SELL YOUR HOUSE

                    RIGHT AWAY.  BECAUSE IF YOU SELL YOUR HOUSE RIGHT AWAY, YOU WILL MAKE

                    THE NET PROFIT OVER AND ABOVE PAYING THE MORTGAGE OFF.  YOU WILL WALK

                    AWAY FROM THIS MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE WITH MONEY IN YOUR POCKET.

                                         244



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WELL, THAT WAS BEFORE WE STARTED USING 40 MILLION TO DEFEND PEOPLE IN

                    MORTGAGE FORECLOSURES.  NOW HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS.  THEY COME IN, CAN

                    YOU PAY THE MORTGAGE?  NO.  CAN YOU CATCH IT UP?  NO.  WELL, HOW

                    MUCH -- HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE IN EQUITY, THEY'D TELL ME AND I'D SAY,

                    WELL, HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS.  UNDER CURRENT NEW YORK LAW, YOU CAN

                    STOP PAYING YOUR MORTGAGE, YOU CAN STOP PAYING YOUR UTILITIES, YOU

                    CAN STOP MAINTAINING YOUR HOUSE.  YOU CAN STOP PAYING FOR YOUR

                    HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE.  THE BANK IS REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN YOUR

                    PROPERTY UNTIL THE FORECLOSURE IS COMPLETED, SO WHENEVER YOU NEED

                    ANYTHING FIXED, JUST CALL THE BANK.  THE BANK WILL PAY YOUR TAXES,

                    BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT IT TO GO INTO FORECLOSURE.  THE BANK WILL PAY

                    YOUR INSURANCE.  AND YOU WILL TAKE AT LEAST THREE YEARS BEFORE YOU

                    ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEAVE.  AND I'D SAY, TAKE ALL THE SAVINGS FOR THREE

                    YEARS THAT YOU WOULD OTHERWISE PAY ON YOUR MORTGAGE, PROPERTY TAXES,

                    HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR, AND COMPARE THAT

                    WITH YOUR HOME EQUITY.  AND BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE STRUCTURE OUR

                    LAWS, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WALK AWAY THREE YEARS LATER WITH NOTHING AT

                    ALL, AS OPPOSED TO WALKING AWAY WITH CASH IN THEIR POCKET, AND THEY GOT

                    A FREE RIDE AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BANK AND EVERYBODY ELSE FOR THREE

                    YEARS.  THAT'S HOW SCREWED UP OUR SYSTEM IS.  AND WE HELP -- HELP OUT

                    WITH THAT SCREWED-UP SYSTEM BY PAYING 40 MILLION TO PROVIDE THEM

                    WITH LAWYERS FOR FREE TO TELL THEM HOW TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM

                    AND LIVE FOR FREE FOR THREE YEARS AS THEY DESTROY THEIR EQUITY AND THEIR

                    CREDIT.

                                 SO I WILL BE SUPPORTING THE PROGRAM BECAUSE

                                         245



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    EVERYBODY NEEDS FREE LAWYERS, ESPECIALLY ALL MY LEGAL COLLEAGUES WHO

                    APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT WORKING FOR FREE, BUT ARE MORE THAN

                    HAPPY TO GIVE LEGAL ADVICE TO OTHERS.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 11, CALENDAR [SIC] NO. 213, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10142, CAL -- RULES

                    REPORT NO. 213, COMMITTEE ON RULES (KIM, DICKENS, TAYLOR, REYES,

                    HEVESI, ARDILA, DESTEFANO, RAGA, BURGOS).  AN ACT TO AMEND THE ELDER

                    LAW, IN RELATION TO SOCIAL MODEL ADULT DAY SERVICES PROGRAMS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  AN EXPLANATION

                    HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MR. KIM.

                                 MR. KIM:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  THIS BILL WOULD

                    REQUIRE THE STATE OFFICE FOR AGING, SOFA, TO INSPECT NEW SOCIAL ADULT

                    DAY CARE PROGRAMS PRIOR TO OPERATION.  IT WOULD REQUIRE EXISTING

                    PROGRAMS TO BE INSPECTED BY DECEMBER 31ST, 2029, AND REQUIRE EACH

                    SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM TO CONDUCT AN ANNUAL SELF-CERTIFICATION

                    PROGRAM BEGINNING JANUARY 1ST, 2030.  IT WOULD REQUIRE ALL PROGRAMS

                                         246



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TO BE INSPECTED NO LESS THAN ONCE EVERY FIVE YEARS, AND PROHIBITS A

                    PERSON OR ENTITY FROM IDENTIFYING OR MARKETING THEMSELVES AS

                    PROVIDING A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM UNLESS THEY MEET THE

                    REQUIREMENTS OF THIS BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  WOULD THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  MR. KIM, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. KIM:  YES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  THE SPONSOR

                    YIELDS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, MR. KIM.  WHAT IS A

                    SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM?

                                 MR. KIM:  SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAMS ARE

                    PROGRAMS THAT'S ADMINISTERED THROUGH THE STATE OFFICE FOR AGING THAT

                    PROVIDES SOCIAL SERVICES, INCLUDING NUTRITION, BREAKFAST, LUNCH, AND

                    SOCIAL PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT THE DAY.  SO THEY -- THEY FOCUS ON

                    SOCIALIZATION AND PERSONAL CARE AND NUTRITION.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I SEE.  THEY DON'T PROVIDE MEDICAL

                    CARE, DO THEY?

                                 MR. KIM:  THERE IS A SEPARATE CATEGORY OF

                    MEDICAL-BASED SOCIAL DAY CARE PROGRAMS, BUT THESE ARE SOCIAL ADULT DAY

                    CARE PROGRAMS WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEDICAL ONES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO THESE ARE PROGRAMS GENERALLY

                                         247



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OPERATED BY THE OFFICE FOR THE AGING TO HELP SENIOR CITIZENS GET

                    TOGETHER, HAVE A GOOD TIME, AND HAVE BREAKFAST, LUNCH AND --

                                 MR. KIM:  SO THE OFFICE FOR AGING DO NOT DIRECTLY

                    ADMINISTER THE PROGRAMS, THESE ARE CONTRACTED OUT ENTITIES; FOR-PROFITS,

                    NON-PROFITS, COUNTIES THAT ARE DIRECTLY SERVING OLDER ADULTS WHO ARE

                    MOSTLY MEDICAID QUALIFIED.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  DOES MEDICAID PAY FOR THESE

                    SERVICES?

                                 MR. KIM:  CORRECT.  SO YOU HAVE TO BE, FIRST,

                    QUALIFIED FOR HOME CARE MEDICAID, AND THEN AS AN -- AS AN ADDITION, YOU

                    COULD ALSO GET SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAMS IN THESE FACILITIES.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO IF YOU QUAL -- I UNDERSTAND.  SO

                    IF YOU QUALIFY FOR MEDICAID FOR HOME CARE, INSTEAD OF GETTING MEDICAID

                    SERVICES LIKE A PERSONAL CARE AIDE AT HOME, YOU COULD GET IT IN ONE OF

                    THESE ADULT SOCIAL DAY CARE PROGRAMS.

                                 MR. KIM:  NOT ALL, BUT YES, YOU CAN APPLY AND YOU

                    CAN BE APPROVED TO ATTEND A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  ARE THERE SOCIAL DAY CARE PROGRAMS

                    THAT ARE RUN ENTIRELY WITH PRIVATE FUNDS?  NO MEDICAID, NO STATE

                    FUNDING, JUST SIMPLY PRIVATE PAY.

                                 MR. KIM:  THEY'RE CERTAINLY ENTITLED TO TRY TO RUN A

                    BUSINESS PAID ON PRIVATE PAY, BUT I PERSONALLY, AS THE CHAIR OF THE

                    AGING COMMITTEE, HAVE NOT RUN INTO ONE AND I'M NOT AWARE OF ONE THAT

                    IS --

                                 MR. GOODELL:  YOU'RE TOO YOUNG.

                                         248



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. KIM:  -- 100 PERCENT PRIVATE PAY THAT'S A SOCIAL

                    ADULT DAY CARE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  YOU'RE -- YOU'RE TOO YOUNG TO RUN

                    INTO ONE.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 MR. KIM:  I MEAN, IN MY ROLE AS THE CHAIR OF THE

                    COMMITTEE DOING HEARINGS AND SUCH THROUGHOUT THE STATE, WE HAVEN'T

                    -- WE HAVEN'T SEEN ONE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO THEN MY QUESTION IS, IN THE

                    EVENT THERE ARE SOME, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVEN'T RUN INTO ANY, WOULD THIS

                    APPLY TO AN ENTIRELY PRIVATE-FUNDED SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE PROGRAM?

                                 MR. KIM:  IF YOU ARE 100 PERCENT PRIVATELY FUNDED

                    AND MARKET YOURSELF AS A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE, YES.  BUT YOU DON'T HAVE

                    TO MARKET YOURSELF AS A SOCIAL ADULT DAY CARE AND YOU COULD BE A

                    FOR-PROFIT SENIOR CENTER OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF FACILITY THAT PROVIDES

                    SERVICES AND TAKE PRIVATE PAYMENTS, AND THOSE FACILITIES WOULD NOT BE

                    IMPACTED BY THIS BILL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU FOR THAT CLARIFICATION.

                                 SIR, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  ON THE BILL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  IT'S JUST A LITTLE INTERESTING THAT IF

                    YOU WANT TO RUN A PRIVATE PAY OPERATION, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE CAREFUL

                    WITH WHAT YOU CALL IT.  BUT WITH THAT CLARIFICATION, I'M COMFORTABLE

                    SUPPORTING THIS BILL BECAUSE IN MY COUNTY I BELIEVE I HAVE SOME

                    PROGRAMS THAT ARE ENTIRELY PRIVATE PAY, AND THEY WOULD NOT WELCOME

                                         249



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE INSPECTED BY THE STATE AND BE SUBJECTED TO THEIR

                    REGULATIONS.  THE ONES THAT I'M AWARE OF THAT ARE ENTIRELY PRIVATE PAY,

                    THEY OBTAIN THEIR CLIENTELE BY PROVIDING EXEMPLARY SERVICE, AND THOSE

                    ARE THE CLIENTELE THAT DEMAND AND EXPECT EXEMPLARY SERVICE.  AND, AS A

                    RESULT, THEY REALLY DON'T NEED TO BE INSPECTED BY THE STATE, THEY'RE

                    INSPECTED BY THEIR CLIENTELE AND THEIR CLIENTELE'S PARENTS OR SIBLINGS OR

                    KIDS.

                                 SO WITH THAT CLARIFICATION, I WILL BE SUPPORTING THIS.

                    THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. KIM TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. KIM:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING ME

                    TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE ON THIS BILL.  THIS IS LEGISLATION THAT MY STAFF AND

                    PROGRAM AND COUNSEL AND THE AGING COMMITTEE HAVE WORKED ON FOR

                    ALMOST A YEAR-AND-A-HALF.  AFTER A SERIES OF TOWN HALLS AND OVERSIGHT

                    HEARING, INDUSTRY LEADERS AND COUNTLESS GOOD OPERATORS OF SOCIAL ADULT

                    DAY CARE CENTERS CAME IN AND TESTIFIED THAT THIS MARKET IS FAILING THEM

                    BECAUSE OF SO MANY -- SO MUCH FRAUD AND BAD OPERATORS THAT ARE

                    LITERALLY USING THESE FACILITIES AS MEDICAID EXCHANGE PROGRAMS AND

                    COMPETING IN A RACE TO THE BOTTOM WHERE THEY'RE LIQUIDATING MEDICAID

                                         250



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DOLLARS TO -- TO CONSTITUENTS AND SENIORS AND TRYING TO BRIBE THEM INTO

                    THE FACILITIES, COMMITTING FRAUD AT THE WORST LEVEL.  THIS IS A SOLUTION

                    WHERE WE'RE ALLOWING THE COMMISSIONER, THE STATE OFFICE FOR AGING

                    DIRECTOR TO COME IN, INSPECT AND CERTIFY AND ROOT OUT THE BAD OPERATORS

                    SO WE CAN SAVE THIS MARKET THAT DOES WONDERFUL THINGS FOR A POPULATION

                    THAT'S GROWING IN AGE AND IN A CRISIS MOMENT WHERE THEY DESERVE THE

                    NUTRITION, SOCIAL HOURS, AND -- AND JUST THE CONNECTIVITY WITH THE

                    COMMUNITY.

                                 SO WITH THAT, I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR SUPPORTING

                    THIS BILL AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  MR. KIM IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 16, RULES REPORT NO. 275, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  SENATE NO. S00791-A, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 275, SENATOR COMRIE (SIMONE, SIMON, GLICK, LEE--A09885).  AN

                    ACT TO AMEND THE NEW YORK STATE URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION

                    ACT, IN RELATION TO EXTENDING THE AMOUNT OF TIME BETWEEN NOTICE OF A

                    PROJECT AND A PUBLIC HEARING.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZACCARO:  AN EXPLANATION

                    HAS BEEN REQUESTED, MR. SIMONE.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YES, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE

                    [SIC].  THIS BILL INCREASES THE PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL

                                         251



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CAPITAL PROJECTS FOR THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORP, UDC, FROM 10 TO

                    30 DAYS, AND INCREASES HEARING NOTICE REQUIREMENTS FOR A PROJECT FROM

                    10 TO 20 DAYS.  THE INCREASED PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE FROM 10 TO 30 DAYS

                    FOR THE SALE OR LEASE OF LAND USE IMPROVEMENT IN INDUSTRIAL PROJECTS.  IT

                    ALSO REQUIRES THAT THE SALE OR LEASE TO UDC BY A MUNICIPALITY HAVE A

                    PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE PUBLISHED AT LEAST 14 DAYS BEFORE THE HEARING,

                    AND REQUIRES THAT UDC PROVIDE ANY COMMUNITY BOARD WHERE THE

                    PROJECT IS LOCATED -- WHEN A PROJECT IS LOCATED IN NEW YORK CITY, FILE

                    THEIR NOTICE FOR A PUBLIC HEARING AT LEAST 14 DAYS BEFORE PUBLICATION.

                                 WHY WE NEED THIS BILL?  AS WE'VE CONTINUED TO

                    INCREASE FUNDING FOR UDC PROJECTS ACROSS THE STATE, WHICH I SUPPORT,

                    THE NEED FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY AND NOTIFICATION TO COMMUNITIES OF A

                    PROJECT BEING CONSIDERED IN THE AREA IS VERY IMPORTANT.  INCREASED

                    NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARINGS WILL ALLOW FOR AFFECTED PARTIES TO ACTUALLY

                    LEARN ABOUT THE HEARING AND PROJECT TO ENABLE MEANINGFUL PARTICIPATION.

                    OFTEN, WE HEAR COMPLAINTS FROM COMMUNITY BOARDS AND LOCAL FOLKS

                    THAT THEY GET THE NOTICE TOO LATE, THAT NO ONE -- WE GO TO THESE HEARINGS

                    AND NO ONE'S IN ATTENDANCE AND BIG PROJECTS ARE APPROVED OR DONE IN

                    SECRET BY THE CITY.  WE WANT TO MAKE SURE AS WE APPROVE FUTURE

                    PROJECTS ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING, STATE PROJECTS IN MY DISTRICT, WHICH I

                    WELCOME, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PUBLIC, WHO HAS THE BEST

                    OPINION ON WHAT BELONGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE A SAY BEFORE A

                    PROJECT IS APPROVED.  THIS SIMPLY GIVES THEM A STRAIGHTFORWARD

                    (INAUDIBLE) MORE TIME TO WEIGH IN AND KNOW ALL THE DETAILS OF A PROJECT

                    PLAN.

                                         252



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. RA.

                                 MR. RA:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. SIMONE, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YES, I WILL YIELD FOR ED.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. RA:  THANK YOU, MR. SIMONE.  SO JUST A FEW

                    QUESTIONS.  AS YOU'RE AWARE, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PRIOR PASSAGES OF

                    SIMILAR LEGISLATION IN THE HOUSE, AND PRIOR VETOES OF THAT LEGISLATION.

                    SO I'M WONDERING IF YOU CAN MAYBE ELABORATE ON THE REASONS WHY

                    PERHAPS THOSE OBJECTIONS, AND -- AND THEY WERE FROM THE FORMER

                    GOVERNOR, BUT WHY THOSE OBJECTIONS MAY BE EITHER ADDRESSED IN THIS

                    LEGISLATION OR MAY NO LONGER BE RELEVANT AS WE SEEK TO ADOPT THIS NOW.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  WE DO -- WE DO ADDRESS THE CONCERNS

                    FROM THE PRIOR VETO; NUMBER ONE, IT WAS THE FORMER GOVERNOR, WE

                    KNOW HOW MUCH HE LIKED COMMUNITY INPUT.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 AND NOW WE HAVE A NEW GOVERNOR --

                                 MR. RA:  HE WAS A HUGE FAN OF LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, I

                    CAN TELL YOU.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YEAH, A HUGE FAN OF LOCAL INPUT.

                                 MR. RA:  HUGE FAN.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  I WAS OFTEN THE TARGET OF THAT IN MY

                    PREVIOUS ROLES.  BUT NUMBER TWO, WE COMPROMISED ON THE DAY NOTICE

                                         253



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND REDUCED IT FROM I BELIEVE 30 TO 20, AND ALSO TO 14 WHICH IS LITERALLY

                    FOUR MORE DAYS THAN THE 10-DAY NOTICE, TO GIVE FOLKS A LITTLE MORE TIME

                    TO PREPARE FOR A HEARING SO THAT THEY KNOW THE DETAILS AND THEY'RE

                    PREPARED FOR INPUT ON A PROJECT THAT COULD AFFECT A LOCAL NEIGHBORHOOD

                    OR A HOMEOWNER, WHICH I KNOW BOTH PARTIES SUPPORT, THAT WE WANT TO

                    SUPPORT HOMEOWNERS' SAY WHEN A PROJECT WILL CHANGE A NEIGHBORHOOD.

                                 MR. RA:  OKAY.  NOW, SO YOU MENTIONED THAT THE 10

                    TO 14, BUT AM I CORRECT -- SO THE -- THE WINDOW IN TERMS OF FROM THE

                    NOTICE TO THE HEARING DATE WOULD BE CURRENTLY 10 AND GOES TO 30?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  CORRECT, 20 MORE DAYS.  AND, LOOK, IF

                    20 MORE DAYS IS THAT CONTROVERSIAL, MAYBE THE PROJECT DOESN'T BELONG OR

                    SHOULDN'T GO FORWARD IN GENERAL.

                                 MR. RA:  OKAY.  AND THAT IS -- SO I ASSUME, RIGHT, IN

                    -- IN INTRODUCING THIS THAT YOU BELIEVE 10 DAYS DOES NOT GIVE AN

                    ADEQUATE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE COMMUNITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S -- WHAT'S

                    GOING ON.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. RA:  AND THEN HAVE, I GUESS, AN OPPORTUNITY TO

                    ATTEND THE PUBLIC HEARING THAT'S GOING TO HELD.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YEAH --

                                 MR. RA:  CORRECT?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YES.

                                 MR. RA:  OKAY.  AND THEN THE OTHER PIECE OF IT IS THE

                    ACTUAL NOTICE OF THE SALE, LEASE, GRANT OR CONVEYANCE OF LAND BY A

                    MUNICIPALITY TO THE CORPORATION AND THE PUBLIC HEARING FROM 10 TO 14

                                         254



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BUSINESS DAYS.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. RA:  SO THAT'S JUST FOUR ADDITIONAL BUSINESS DAYS,

                    THE OTHER ONE IS ACTUAL -- THE NOTICE BETWEEN -- THE NOTE -- NOTICE OF THE

                    PROJECT AND THE HEARING IS CALENDAR DAYS.  OKAY.  THANK YOU.  SO I -- I

                    GUESS REALLY THE -- THE CRUX OF THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, THE PRIOR

                    OBJECTION BY, AGAIN, THE PRIOR GOVERNOR, BUT I THINK THE CONCERN THAT

                    CONTINUES TO BE RAISED IS DOES THIS EXTENSION OF THE PERIOD

                    UNNECESSARILY DELAY SOMETHING FROM MOVING FORWARD.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  I -- I BELIEVE IT DOES NOT.  AND

                    CLEARLY, IF THAT ADDED FOUR DAYS OR ADDED 20 DAYS IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE

                    FOR THE COMMUNITY NOT TO GIVE THEM INPUT, THEN CLEARLY MAYBE THE

                    PROJECT DOESN'T BELONG THERE.

                                 MR. RA:  OKAY, THANK YOU.  SO IN PARTICULAR, ONE OF

                    THE ISSUES I HAVE BEFORE ME THAT HAS BEEN RAISED IS THAT BY EXTENDING

                    THIS PERIOD, THIS, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE WHICH

                    -- WHICH IS COMING THROUGH THIS PROCESS WOULD BE UNNECESSARILY

                    DELAYED, ESPECIALLY FOR ECONOMICALLY-DISTRESSED COMMUNITIES IN THE

                    STATE THAT MIGHT BE IMPACTED BY THIS.  CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT CONCERN?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  I ACTUALLY THINK THE DIFFERENCE IN TIME

                    WOULD NOT DO THAT.  WE DISAGREE WITH THE PREVIOUS VETO MESSAGE FROM

                    THE PRIOR GOVERNOR BECAUSE WE JUST THINK THE COMMUNITY SHOULD HAVE

                    MORE TIME TO GIVE INPUT TO ANY LARGE PROJECT THAT WILL CHANGE THE

                    CHARACTER OF A NEIGHBORHOOD.

                                 MR. RA:  THANK YOU, MR. SIMONE.

                                         255



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. RA:  SO JUST QUICKLY, I -- WE HAVEN'T VOTED ON

                    THIS, OR SIMILAR LEGISLATION, IN A NUMBER OF YEARS.  YOU KNOW, THE -- THE

                    ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE UDC ACT WAS PROVIDING THIS TYPE OF ASSISTANCE.

                    THERE ARE SOME EXTENSIONS OF -- OF THE NOTICE REQUIREMENTS AND THE

                    AMOUNT OF TIME THAT TAKES PLACE IN BETWEEN.  YOU KNOW, THE PRIOR VETO,

                    DESPITE BEING FROM A -- FROM A PRIOR ADMINISTRATION, I THINK SOME OF THE

                    ISSUES DO HOLD TRUE IN TERMS OF IF WE WERE TO PROVIDE LONGER NOTICE

                    THERE HAS TO BE MORE TIME BEFORE A HEARING COULD BE HELD.  CERTAINLY

                    THERE ARE GONNA BE PROJECTS THAT ARE MORE CONTROVERSIAL AND THERE'S

                    GONNA BE PROJECTS THAT ARE LESS CONTROVERSIAL, AND THOSE -- SOME OF

                    THOSE PROJECTS MIGHT BE DELAYED BY THE LONGER PERIOD OF TIME.  THAT IS

                    THE REASON THAT THERE HAVE BEEN CONCERNS, AND -- AND I WOULD SAY A

                    SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF NO VOTES IN THE PAST WHEN WE LAST VOTED ON THIS

                    BILL BACK IN 2018.

                                 THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  WOULD THE SPONSOR

                    YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. SIMONE, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YES, I YIELD.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU.  THESE NOTICE

                                         256



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PROVISIONS, DO THEY -- OBVIOUSLY THEY APPLY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK,

                    BUT THEY ALSO APPLY OUTSIDE THE CITY OF NEW YORK, DON'T THEY?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  THEY DO.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  AND IT APPLIES TO BOTH DEVELOPMENT

                    AND REDEVELOPMENT PROJECTS?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YES.  THEY APPLY TO LAND USE -- SALE

                    OF LAND USE, IMPROVEMENT AND INDUSTRIAL PROJECTS, AND ALSO TO PROJECTS

                    LOCATED IN NEW YORK CITY TO FILE NOTICE.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE NEED

                    FOR A COMMUNITY TO HAVE INPUT ON A HUGE PROJECT, BUT NOT ALL THESE

                    PROJECTS ARE HUGE, RIGHT?  I MEAN, SOMETIMES THEY'RE MUCH SMALLER.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  CORRECT.  AND I STILL THINK WE SHOULD

                    GIVE AMPLE TIME FOR THE PUBLIC TO WEIGH IN.  AND AS WE KNOW FROM THIS

                    GOVERNOR, SHE CHANGES HER MIND, SO SOMETIMES MAYBE THE PUBLIC WILL

                    ADVOCATE AND HAVE HER CHANGE HER MIND.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NOW, THESE PROJECTS ARE OFTEN DONE

                    IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER ENTITIES, AREN'T THEY?  FOR EXAMPLE, YOU

                    MIGHT HAVE THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION GRANT COUPLED WITH,

                    IN MY AREA, A WESTERN REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT GRANT, OR MAYBE STEDO

                    GRANT, AN IDA GRANT.  THEY'RE ALL PUT TOGETHER, CORRECT?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  SO WHEN WE ADD THE TIME ON ONE,

                    AND IF THAT'S A CRITICAL COMPONENT THEN IT SLOWS THE ENTIRE PROJECT DOWN

                    FOR ALL OF THEM, ASSUMING THEY'RE ALL INTERACTIVE -- INTER -- INTERTWINED --

                    I KNEW THERE WAS A WORD OUT THERE SOMEWHERE -- INTERTWINED, CORRECT?

                                         257



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. SIMONE:  YES, BUT WE FEEL THE CHANGES AND THE

                    COMPROMISE IS NOT SO MUCH MORE TIME THAT IT WOULD CAUSE A SIGNIFICANT

                    DELAY.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THOSE OTHER PROGRAMS ARE TYPICALLY

                    COBBLED TOGETHER, IF YOU WILL, TO PULL AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECT

                    OFF, WHETHER IT'S IDAS OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THERE'S HOUSING TRUST

                    FUND, DEPENDING ON THE NATURE OF THE PROJECT, STEDO, WHICH IS A

                    MAINLY SOUTHERN TIER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATION.  DO THOSE

                    OTHER ORGANIZATIONS HAVE MANDATORY NOTICE PROVISIONS AND, IF SO, HOW

                    DO THOSE PROVISIONS DOVETAIL WITH THESE?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY GERMANE TO THIS

                    BILL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  WELL, IF -- IF THEIR NOTICES ARE

                    LONGER, THIS BILL DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE BECAUSE IT'S NOT GONNA

                    SLOW DOWN THEIR PROJECT.  IF THEIR NOTICES ARE SHORTER, THIS BILL WILL SLOW

                    DOWN ALL THEIR PROJECTS AS WELL, RIGHT?

                                 MR. SIMONE:  WELL, THIS IS SPECIFIC TO JUST UDC

                    PROJECTS.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  NO, I UNDERSTAND, BUT UDC AS

                    WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, IS OFTEN INVOLVED WITH OTHER ENTITIES.  DO YOU HAVE

                    ANY IDEA OF HOW THESE NOTICE PROVISIONS APPLY, IF AT ALL, IN COMPARISON

                    TO THE OTHER ENTITIES?

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MR. SIMONE:  THEY WOULD ACTUALLY STILL HAVE TO

                    FOLLOW UDC REQUIREMENTS, BUT NOT PART OF THIS BILL.

                                         258



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. GOODELL:  I SEE.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I

                    APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  IT'S SOMETIMES A VERY COMPLICATED

                    PROCESS OF PULLING TOGETHER ALL THE DIFFERENT DIVERSE FUNDING STREAMS IN

                    ORDER TO MAKE AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECT MOVE FORWARD.  AND I

                    THINK, AND I HOPE, THAT ALL OF US RECOGNIZE THAT THE FUTURE STRENGTH OF

                    OUR GREAT STATE DEPENDS ON SUCCESSFUL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS

                    THAT GIVE REAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE A FAMILY-SUSTAINING

                    WAGE AND COVER THEIR MORTGAGE AND BUILD THE COMMUNITY.  AND SO WE

                    NEED TO BE VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT SLOWING DOWN PROJECTS, ESPECIALLY

                    WHEN THERE ARE MULTIPLE PLAYERS INVOLVED AND WE'RE STRUGGLING TO GET

                    THESE PROJECTS OFF THE GROUND, BUILT, HIRING PEOPLE AND BUILDING WEALTH

                    IN THE COMMUNITY.

                                 AND WHILE I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE CONCERNS OF MY

                    COLLEAGUE ABOUT LARGE PROJECTS THAT MAY IMPACT THE COMMUNITY,

                    TYPICALLY -- TYPICALLY, NOT ALWAYS BUT TYPICALLY THOSE LARGE PROJECTS GET

                    A FAIR AMOUNT OF PRESS WHILE THEY'RE BEING DEVELOPED.  AND IT'S PRETTY

                    HARD TO HIDE A LARGE PROJECT FROM MOST OF OUR COMMUNITIES BECAUSE

                    YOU HAVE DEVELOPERS ACQUIRING OPTIONS ON LAND, MEETING WITH IDAS,

                    WHICH ARE PUBLIC MEETINGS, MEETING WITH OTHER ENTITIES.  THERE ARE ALSO

                    PUBLIC MEETINGS.  AND SO WE JUST NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT EXTENDING

                                         259



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE TIME FRAME BECAUSE IT SLOWS DOWN ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT

                    LONG-TERM ASPECTS OF OUR FUTURE, WHICH IS PROVIDING NEW JOB

                    OPPORTUNITIES FOR OUR FRIENDS, NEIGHBORS, CHILDREN AND OTHERS.

                                 THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  IT'S SHOCKING TO

                    BELIEVE THAT I SUPPORT WHAT OUR GOVERNOR IN THE PAST HAS DONE WHEN HE

                    VETOED THIS FOR CREATING UNNECESSARY DELAYS, BUT I DO.  SO FOR THOSE

                    REASONS, THE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED, BUT THOSE

                    WHO SUPPORT THE ADDITIONAL NOTICE SHOULD CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE

                    FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. SOLAGES.

                                 MS. SOLAGES:  THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE WILL BE

                    VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THOSE WHO WISH TO VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE CAN

                    DO SO AT THEIR DESK NOW.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, BOTH.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. SIMONE.

                                 MR. SIMONE:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN

                                         260



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    MY VOTE.  LARGE-SCALE REDEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE

                    STATE CHANGE THE FACE OF OUR STATE AND, MOST SIGNIFICANTLY, OUR LOCAL

                    COMMUNITIES.  UNDER CURRENT LAW, A PUBLIC HEARING MUST BE HELD

                    WITHIN 10 DAYS OF PUBLICATION OF NOTICE OF A REDEVELOPMENT PROJECT.

                    THE SHORT WINDOW ALLOWS FOR A HEARING TO OCCUR WITHOUT COMMUNITIES

                    BEING ABLE TO HEAR ABOUT IT, MUCH LESS PREPARE MEANINGFUL PUBLIC

                    PARTICIPATION THROUGH COMMENTS, TESTIMONY AND ALTERNATIVE PROPOSALS.

                                 I SUPPORT NEW DEVELOPMENT IN OUR STATE.  FROM

                    MOYNAHAN STATION IN MY DISTRICT TO UPSTATE REVITALIZATION, EDC

                    PROJECTS HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BOOST THE LIVABILITY OF OUR COMMUNITIES

                    AND THE HEALTH OF OUR LOCAL ECONOMIES.  THE PROJECTS ARE OFTEN

                    IMPROVED BY LOCAL INPUT.  LOCAL VOICES KNOW THEIR COMMUNITIES BEST,

                    AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERTISE MEANS BETTER

                    RESULTS IN THE LONG-TERM.  THAT'S HAPPENING NOW WITH THE

                    REDEVELOPMENT OF PENN STATION.  EXPANDING THE WINDOW FROM NOTICE TO

                    A PUBLIC HEARING FROM 10 DAYS TO 30 DAYS WILL HELP ENSURE OUR

                    COMMUNITIES ARE HEARD, AND MAJOR PROJECTS MOVE MORE SMOOTHLY

                    TOWARD SUCCESS.  AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. SIMONE IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. BROWN TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I'M JUST

                    KIND OF STRUGGLING WITH THIS PARTICULAR BILL, I THINK THE INTENT IS VERY

                    GOOD.  THE PROBLEM IS IT ACTUALLY DOES THE REVERSE.  I'M INVOLVED WITH

                    ZONING, I ACTUALLY TEACH CLASSES TO LAW FIRMS ON ZONING PARTICULARLY.

                                         261



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE REASON WHY THESE NOTICES ARE IN A VERY TIGHT WINDOW IS SPECIFICALLY

                    BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL OTHERWISE FORGET THAT THE EVENT IS GOING TO OCCUR,

                    WHETHER IT'S A ZONING, A SUBDIVISION, A PLANNING BOARD CASE.  YOU CAN'T

                    DO IT TOO EARLY, YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN A CERTAIN WINDOW OF TIME OF THIS

                    PARTICULAR CASE.

                                 THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH THIS PARTICULAR BILL IS IT WOULD

                    -- IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE IF THERE WERE ADDITIONAL MEANS OF

                    NOTIFICATION; IN OTHER WORDS, WHETHER IT'S A PLANNING BOARD CASE OR A

                    ZONING BOARD CASE, NOTICE IS GIVEN WITHIN A CERTAIN PARAMETER,

                    PERIMETER OF THE PROPERTY, WHETHER IT'S 200 FEET, 500 FEET, DEPENDS ON

                    WHAT IT IS.  RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED, THEY'RE NOTIFIED AND THEY'RE AWARE.

                    IT HAS TO BE PUBLISHED IN A NEWSPAPER NOTIFYING PEOPLE OF THE PARTICULAR

                    EVENT, CERTAIN TIMES IT'S POSTED ON THE PROPERTY WHAT EXACTLY IS

                    HAPPENING.  BUT THIS PARTICULAR BILL DOESN'T EXPAND THOSE PARAMETERS

                    ANY FURTHER.  ALL IT DOES IS ALLOW PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY FORGET AND NOT SHOW

                    UP TO A MEETING, WHICH IS CONTRARY TO THE WHOLE REASON WHY THERE IS

                    THIS VERY TIGHT AND CLOSE TIME FRAME FOR ALL PUBLIC NOTICE OF THIS

                    PARTICULAR KIND.

                                 SO WHILE I THINK THE INTENTION WAS GOOD, IT ACTUALLY

                    WILL HAVE THE TOTALLY REVERSE EFFECT, AND THAT'S WHY I OBVIOUSLY VOTED IN

                    THE NEGATIVE.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BROWN IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                         262



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 17, RULES REPORT NO. 308, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  SENATE NO. S01736-E, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 308, SENATOR KRUEGER (FAHY, JACKSON, DICKENS, THIELE, SEAWRIGHT,

                    BURDICK, SIMON, STECK, WOERNER, K. BROWN, CLARK, L. ROSENTHAL, OTIS,

                    EPSTEIN, DINOWITZ, MCDONALD, SIMONE, RAGA, PAULIN -- A03780-E).

                    AN ACT TO AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW, IN RELATION TO REQUIRING NEW

                    CONSTRUCTION THAT INCLUDES DEDICATED OFF-STREET PARKING TO PROVIDE

                    ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING STATIONS AND ELECTRIC VEHICLE-READY PARKING

                    SPACES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. FAHY, AN

                    EXPLANATION IS REQUESTED.

                                 MS. FAHY:  CERTAINLY.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    THIS BILL SETS STANDARDS REGARDING EV, OR ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING FOR

                    NEW CONSTRUCTION OF -- WHICH INCLUDES THOSE CONSTRUCTION THAT HAS

                    DEDICATED OFF-STREET PARKING OR A GARAGE OR A DRIVEWAY OR PARKING LOT.

                    THEY VARY -- THE REQUIREMENTS VARY BASED ON THE DIFFERENT CLASSES OF

                    BUILDINGS FOR FAMILY HOMES VERSUS MULTI-UNIT VERSUS COMMERCIAL

                    PROPERTIES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. DURSO.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WOULD THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. FAHY, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. FAHY:  CERTAINLY.

                                         263



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. FAHY YIELDS, SIR.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MS. FAHY.  SO IF THIS BILL

                    WAS TO PASS, WHEN WOULD THIS LAW GO INTO EFFECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  JUST ABOUT A YEAR FROM NOW, IN -- I THINK

                    RIGHT NOW IT SAYS APRIL 2025.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  AND WHEN YOU SAY -- WELL, MY

                    FIRST QUESTION, ACTUALLY, WITH THAT IS, IS THIS FOR -- ONLY FOR NEW

                    COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS OR IS IT RESIDENTIAL, ALSO?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT IS NEW -- ONLY FOR NEW, BUT IT IS NEW

                    FOR RESIDENTIAL AND CONSTRUCT -- AND COMMERCIAL.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IF THERE

                    IS ANY LANGUAGE IN THE BILL CONSTITUTES "NEW"?  SO IN OTHER WORDS, IF I

                    REDO MY HOME AND I LEAVE ONE WALL UP, IN MY VILLAGE WHERE I LIVE IT IS

                    NOT CONSIDERED A NEW BUILD.

                                 MS. FAHY:  CORRECT, IT IS --

                                 MR. DURSO:  WOULD THAT -- WOULD THAT STILL APPLY?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THAT WOULD NOT APPLY, YOU ARE CORRECT.

                    AN ADDITION IS NOT CONSIDERED NEW CONSTRUCTION, OR ANY TYPE OF CAPITAL

                    IMPROVEMENT ON A CURRENT HOME OR COMMERCIAL PROPERTY, THAT DOES NOT

                    APPLY.  IT IS ONLY, AGAIN, WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED NEW -- A NEW

                    STRUCTURE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  SO EVEN IF THE ZONING CHANGES,

                    SO IF I CHANGE MY HOME INTO A TWO-FAMILY HOME, IT WILL NOT APPLY?

                                         264



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  IF YOU CHANGE YOUR HOME, WHAT?

                                 MR. DURSO:  IF I WAS TO CHANGE MY RESIDENTIAL

                    HOME, A ONE-FAMILY HOME, INTO A TWO-FAMILY HOME OR A MULTI-FAMILY

                    DWELLING, WOULD THAT THEN APPLY?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I THINK THAT'S CONSIDERED A NEW ADDITION;

                    THAT WOULD NOT APPLY.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  SO IT'S, AGAIN, ONLY ON BRAND-

                    NEW CONSTRUCTION, ESSENTIALLY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  NEW CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  AND CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE

                    RATIOS ARE?

                                 MS. FAHY:  SURE.  ON A ONE- TO THREE-FAMILY HOME

                    WHERE THERE IS A GARAGE, DRIVEWAY OR PARKING LOT, IN OTHER WORDS, IF THAT

                    FAMILY HOME DOES NOT INCLUDE OFF-STREET TYPES OF PARKING, THAT WOULD

                    HAVE TO BE ONE EV PANEL PER -- PER PARKING OR PER DWELLING.  IN OTHER

                    WORDS, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE THE CHARGER, IT ONLY REQUIRES THAT IT BE

                    EV-READY.  ARE WE CLEAR ON THAT?

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO NOT -- IT DOESN'T REQUIRE A CHARGER,

                    IT HAS TO BE EV-READY.  SO YOU'RE SAYING --

                                 MS. FAHY:  JUST HAVING --

                                 MR. DURSO:  -- HAVE THE WIRING.

                                 MS. FAHY:  RIGHT.  SO FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU ARE

                    BUILDING A NEW HOME OR A -- A THREE-UNIT HOME AND YOU DO NOT HAVE AN

                    EV CAR, YOU JUST NEED TO MAKE SURE IT IS EV-READY SUCH -- THE PANEL IS

                    THERE IN THE PAVEMENT OR -- OR IN THE GARAGE FOR ONE TO THREE UNITS.  IF IT

                                         265



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IS A MULTI-UNIT RESIDENTIAL OR ABOVE THREE, THEN 100 PERCENT HAVE TO BE

                    EV-READY WITH 20 PERCENT OF THOSE ACTUALLY HAVING THE CHARGING

                    EQUIPMENT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO WHEN YOU SAY 20 PERCENT OF THOSE,

                    IT'S ACTUAL SPACES.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE ACTUAL -- YES, THE ACTUAL CHARGER.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO IF THERE'S 100 SPACES IN A PARKING

                    GARAGE, THERE HAS TO BE 20 THAT ARE EV-READY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  NO.

                                 MR. DURSO:  ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE THE CHARGING?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IF -- IF THERE ARE 20 SPACES, LET'S SAY

                    YOU'RE BUILDING A 20-UNIT BUILDING FOR -- WITH 20 SPACES, GARAGE OR

                    OFF-STREET PARKING, ALL HAVE TO BE EV-READY.  THE PANEL HAS TO BE THERE

                    TO ADD A CHARGER, BUT 20 PERCENT OF THOSE, SO IN THIS CASE FOUR OF THEM,

                    WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE THE CHARGING UNIT EQUIPMENT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  SO FOUR -- FOUR OF THE 20, ESSENTIALLY.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO IT'S GOING BY -- IT'S GOING BY THE

                    NUMBER OF SPACES OR NUMBER OF UNITS?  BECAUSE AGAIN, YOU COULD HAVE

                    A NEW CONSTRUCTION COMMERCIAL BUILDING, RIGHT, THAT'S -- THAT HAS, LET'S

                    SAY 50 UNITS IN IT, BUT THEY COULD HAVE 100 SPOTS.

                                 MS. FAHY:  IF THERE'S A PARKING SPOT THAT'S DESIGNATED

                    FOR A SPECIFIC UNIT, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE METERED TO THAT UNIT, THE PANEL

                    WOULD HAVE TO BE.  SO WHERE -- WHERE A SPOT IS DESIGNATED FOR A UNIT, IT

                    WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THAT EV-READY CAPABILITY.

                                         266



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO IF THERE'S TWO SPOTS PER UNIT, THEN

                    BOTH SPOTS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  HAVE TO BE EV-READY, BUT AGAIN, 20

                    PERCENT ON A MULTI-UNIT HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE A CHARGER, THE CHARGING

                    EQUIPMENT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  SO -- AND I DON'T WANT TO GET

                    TOO NUANCED IN IT, BUT AGAIN, IF YOU'RE SAYING 20 PERCENT OF THEM HAVE

                    TO, SO IF THERE'S 100 SPOTS TOTAL, 50 UNITS, EVERYBODY GETS TWO SPOTS,

                    THEY JUST HAVE TO PICK 20 -- THE -- THE PERSON THAT'S BUILDING THE

                    BUILDING HAS TO PICK 20 SPOTS THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE EV CHARGING

                    STATIONS AT THEM.  IT DOESN'T -- THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE ALL TOGETHER, IT JUST

                    COULD BE SPREAD OUT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YEAH, IT HAS TO BE SPREAD OUT.  RIGHT, 20

                    -- 20 PERCENT, AGAIN, WITH THE CHARGING.  THE REST HAVE TO HAVE THE

                    PANELS --

                                 MR. DURSO:  RIGHT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  -- SO IT CAN BE EASILY ADDED WHICH SAVES

                    THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.  WE HAVE TERRIFIC SUPPORT FROM

                    THE AUTOMOTIVE DEALERS WHO'VE SAID THEY NEED ALL THE INCENTIVES THEY

                    CAN GET FOR EVS BECAUSE OF -- ONCE -- ONCE A BUILDING IS ALREADY

                    CONSTRUCTED, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ADD IN THESE PANELS TO MAKE IT EV-

                    READY.  IT'S ONLY A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS TO ADD IN THE PANEL ITSELF.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  WHILE -- WHILE UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

                    MORE EXPENSIVE AFTERWARDS IF HAVE TO GO TEARING UP A DRIVEWAY OR

                                         267



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    GOING INTO A GARAGE, ET CETERA, TO -- TO ADD IT AT -- SUBSEQUENT TO NEW

                    CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  DO WE HAVE ANY FEEDBACK OR

                    ANYTHING FROM THE POWER COMPANIES IN THE AREAS THAT -- ARE THEY SAYING

                    THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THIS, THE GRID IS GOING TO BE

                    HANDLE IT, THAT THEY'RE PREPARED FOR ANY TYPE OF NEW BUILDS, WHERE --

                    WHEREVER IT IS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  AGAIN, THE STRONGEST SUPPORT WE'VE HAD

                    IS FROM THE AUTOMOTIVE DEALERS WHO KNOW THAT THIS IS HOLDING BACK THE

                    INDUSTRY.  THE UTILITIES, AS BEST WE KNOW, HAVE BEEN SILENT ON THIS

                    BECAUSE THERE IS A WAIVER MECHANISM WHERE THERE IS INSUFFICIENT POWER

                    OR ANY TYPE OF HARDSHIP ON A LOCAL UTILITY PROVIDER.  SO IF THERE'S SOME

                    SERIOUS LIMITATION, ALTHOUGH NOT -- NONE IS EXPECTED BECAUSE THIS IS THE

                    EQUIVALENT OF POWERING, YOU KNOW, A HOME OR LESS, DEPENDING ON THE

                    TYPE OF VEHICLE, SO IT -- IT EXEMPTS ANY TYPE OF PROBLEM.  AGAIN, THERE

                    IS A HARDSHIP WAIVER.

                                 MR. DURSO:  AND -- AND WHAT IS REQUIRED TO RECEIVE

                    THAT HARDSHIP WAIVER, AGAIN?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YOU NEED TO SEEK THE WAIVER.  THE

                    BUILDING OWNER WOULD JUST HAVE TO GO TO THE LOCAL DEPARTMENT OF

                    BUILDINGS, SHOW THE UNDUE HARDSHIP DUE TO A LOCAL UTILITY PROVIDER OR A

                    GEOGRAPHIC AREA THAT HAS SIGNIFICANT COMPLIANCE PROBLEMS.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO IT -- IT COULD BE A GEOGRAPHIC AREA IF

                    THEY HAVE THAT ISSUE?  AND WHO'S MAKING THAT DECISION, IS IT THE LOCAL

                    MUNICIPALITY OR THE STATE?

                                         268



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  I -- I THINK IT'S THE LOCAL MUNI -- YEAH, IT'S

                    -- IT'S AN -- AN AGREEMENT WITH THE LOCAL, STATE, OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

                    ENTITY FOR PURPOSES OF -- OF PROVIDING THAT WAIVER, YEAH.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT IS A LOCAL -- IT'S A LOCAL DEPARTMENT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  I -- I -- MY GUESS IS THE BUILDINGS

                    DEPARTMENT, WHOEVER YOU'RE GETTING YOUR BUILDING CODES FROM OR

                    BUILDING PERMITS FROM.

                                 MR. DURSO:  GOT IT.  SO IT'S REALLY UP TO THE LOCAL

                    MUNICIPALITY AND THE LOCAL POWER AUTHORITY TO UNDERSTAND IF -- IF THERE'S

                    A PROBLEM TO BE ABLE TO GET THE POWER THERE, AND IF THE MUNICIPALITY

                    BELIEVES YOU AND TAKES YOUR HARDSHIP LETTER --

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  -- THEY COULD SAY YOU DON'T NEED IT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.  AND WE HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF

                    EXEMPTION WITH AFFORDABLE HOUSING WHERE -- WHERE IT'S NOT PRACTICAL,

                    AGAIN, SIMILAR AGREEMENT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  WELL, THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT

                    QUESTION.  SO IF, ONCE AGAIN, BECAUSE WE HAD THIS DEBATE DURING BUDGET

                    TIME AND NOW WE'RE SEEING IT COME TO FRUITION, SOME OF THE AFFORDABLE

                    HOUSING THAT'S GOING ON STATE LAND THAT, YOU KNOW, DOT-OWNED LAND,

                    STATE LAND.  I ACTUALLY HAVE SOME NEAR MY DISTRICT THAT IS NOW PUTTING

                    UP AFFORDABLE HOUSING.  WILL THEY BE REQUIRED TO HAVE EV STATIONS ON

                    THEIR PROPERTY?

                                         269



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  NO.  WE'RE --

                                 MR. DURSO:  WHY'S THAT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS EXEMPT FROM

                    ALL REQUIREMENTS.  I MEAN, WE'RE SEEING IT MORE, BUT THEY -- THEY ARE

                    EXEMPT.

                                 MR. DURSO:  IS THERE A REASON WHY THOSE UNITS ARE

                    EXEMPT?  BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALL OBVIOUSLY AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THERE'S

                    A PERCENTAGE OF THEM THAT ARE.  BUT THERE COULD BE, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE

                    BUILDING PROPERTY WITH 20,000 UNITS IN IT, LET'S SAY -- LET'S BE MORE

                    REALISTIC, 1,000 UNITS, AND A CERTAIN NUMBER OF THEM HAVE TO BE

                    LOW-COST.  BUT YOU'RE SAYING THE ENTIRE PROPERTY DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE

                    EV CHARGING STATIONS IN IT?  SO WE'RE GIVING THEM TAX BREAKS AND WE'RE

                    LETTING THEM DO WITHOUT THIS EXTRA COST?  WHY IS THAT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I THINK IT'S MOST LIKELY BECAUSE OF THE

                    DEBATE WE JUST HAVE GONE THROUGH IN THE FIVE YEARS WE'VE SPENT TRYING

                    TO EXPAND AFFORDABLE HOUSING, AND WE HAVE QUITE A HOUSING CRISIS AND

                    THIS IS A -- A WAIVER AT THIS TIME.  BUT TRUTHFULLY, WE ASSUME MOST WILL

                    GO AHEAD AND PUT IN AT LEAST THE PANELS --

                                 MR. DURSO:  BUT --

                                 MS. FAHY: -- BUT WE DIDN'T -- BUT THIS WAS AN

                    EXEMPTION JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THE -- GIVEN THE SEVERE SHORTAGE

                    WHERE, YOU KNOW, EVEN ADDING THOSE COUPLE OF HUNDRED DOLLARS CAN

                    MAKE OR BREAK --

                                 MR. DURSO:  I UNDERSTAND THAT --

                                 MS. FAHY:  -- A PROPOSAL.

                                         270



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO -- SO WE'RE SAYING -- WE'RE GIVING

                    THEM A WAIVER EVEN THOUGH THE ENTIRE 1,000-UNIT BUILDING IS NOT JUST

                    AFFORDABLE, IT'S ONLY A PERCENTAGE, CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE'RE NOT GIVING -- WE'RE NOT GIVING

                    THEM A WAIVER, THEY WOULD HAVE TO APPLY FOR THAT WAIVER.

                                 MR. DURSO:  NO -- BUT NO, NO, THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED

                    TO PUT IN EV STATIONS, CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED.

                                 MR. DURSO:  BUT -- BUT IF I WAS TO GO BUILD A NEW

                    HOME, IF I BOUGHT PROPERTY, RIGHT, BECAUSE WE NEED MORE HOUSING, IF I

                    WAS TO GO DO THAT, I'M REQUIRED TO PUT IN AN EV CHARGING STATION, BUT A

                    COMPANY THAT'S GETTING MILLION-DOLLAR CONTRACTS IS NOT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE AVERAGE NEW HOME IS IN THE

                    MULTI-HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.  AGAIN, THIS IS

                    A FEW HUNDRED.  I KNOW HERE IN ALBANY WHEN WE DO AFFORDABLE HOUSING

                    PROPOSALS, IT IS SOMETIMES AT THE MARGIN EVEN THOUGH WE ARE SEEING

                    THEM ADD IN THESE PANELS.

                                 MR. DURSO:  BUT WHAT ABOUT FOR SOMEONE WHO IS --

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE JUST HAD A PUBLIC HOUSING -- WE JUST

                    HAD A PUBLIC HOUSING BUILDING RE-LAUNCH AND COMPLETELY RENOVATED,

                    WHICH IS FULLY ELECTRIC HERE.  SO WE ASSUME THEY WILL DO IT, WE -- THIS IS

                    JUST PER -- PER SOME OF THE EFFORTS, THIS WAS AN EXEMPTION GRANTED.

                                 MR. DURSO:  BUT WE -- WE CAN ASSUME THEY'RE

                    GONNA DO IT BUT THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED TO, EVERYBODY ELSE IS.  AND THAT

                    SEEMS TO BE ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH THIS BILL.  SO AGAIN, WE NEED MORE

                                         271



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HOUSING, WE'VE BEEN SAYING THAT IN THIS CHAMBER ALL YEAR.  IF I WAS TO

                    GO BUY PROPERTY IN ALBANY, WATERTOWN OR LONG ISLAND AND BUILD A

                    HOUSE ON IT, I'M REQUIRED TO DO IT, BUT SOMEONE THAT'S GETTING STATE

                    MONEY AND TAX RELIEF TO BUILD MILLION-DOLLAR, BASICALLY HOMES AND

                    UNITS, WITH ONLY A CERTAIN PORTION OF THEM BEING FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING,

                    ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO IT.  SO THEY GET TO KEEP MORE MONEY IN THEIR

                    POCKET, BUT IF I WANT TO GO BUILD A HOUSE FOR MYSELF I CAN'T; IS THAT WHAT

                    WE'RE SAYING WITH THIS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  EACH -- WELL, EACH OF THOSE AFFORDABLE

                    HOUSING UNITS ARE NOT WORTH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, IT'S --

                                 MR. DURSO:  NO, NO, NO.  IT'S A MILLION DOLLAR -- IT'S

                    MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THE PROJECT WAS WHAT I'M SAYING.  IF THERE'S 1,000

                    UNITS THAT ARE BEING BUILT ALONG 110 ON LONG ISLAND, OR WE'RE SAYING

                    RIGHT -- RIGHT OFF THE HIGHWAY HERE IN ALBANY, IT COSTS MILLIONS OF

                    DOLLARS.  THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED TO PUT IN EV CHARGING STATIONS, BUT IF I

                    WANT TO GO BUILD A HOUSE AND RENT IT, BECAUSE WE NEED MORE HOUSING,

                    I'M REQUIRED TO DO IT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.  THOSE PROJECTS ARE DONE AT THE

                    MARGINS AND WE --

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO -- SO WE'RE GIVING THE CONTRACTORS

                    MORE MONEY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  AGAIN, WE JUST HAD A MAJOR PUBLIC

                    HOUSING UNIT RENOVATED HERE, IT'S GOING TO BE ALL ELECTRIC.  SO WE ARE

                    SEEING IT, BUT OFTEN THAT TAKES A LOT OF TAX BREAKS.  AND KEEP IN MIND,

                    EVEN FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION AND EVEN FOR PRIVATE OWNERS, THERE ARE ALL

                                         272



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SORTS OF INCENTIVES OUT THERE, NYSERDA HAS A LAUNDRY LIST.  SO RIGHT

                    NOW A LEVEL 2 CHARGER MAY COST YOU $800 TO GET THE ACTUAL CHARGER,

                    BUT EVEN THAT HAS LOTS OF INCENTIVES.  SO YOU ARE SUBSIDIZED EVEN ON

                    THOSE PRIVATE ONES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  WHAT -- WHAT ABOUT THE COST FOR THE

                    ELECTRICIAN TO ACTUALLY RUN THE WIRES?  THE ACTUAL -- AS YOU HAD SAID,

                    YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS REQUIRED TO PUT IN THE STATION, CORRECT, NOT IN ALL,

                    THROUGHOUT THIS BILL, NOT IN EVERY SITUATION, BUT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO

                    HAVE THE WIRING THERE, RIGHT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I WOULD HOPE -- I WOULD HOPE IF YOU'RE

                    BUILDING A NEW HOME, YOU'D HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN ON SITE, AND I'M PRETTY

                    SURE MOST TOWNS WOULD REQUIRE THAT YOU HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN DOING THE

                    ELECTRIC WORK ON YOUR HOME.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OF COURSE.

                                 MS. FAHY:  SO HAVING --

                                 MR. DURSO:  BUT THEY HAVE TO BE PAID.

                                 MS. FAHY:  -- HAVING AN ELECTRICIAN ADD IN THOSE FEW

                    EXTRA MINUTES TO MAKE SURE A PANEL IS CONNECTED --

                                 MR. DURSO:  A FEW EXTRA MINUTES?  HAVE YOU EVER

                    DONE ELECTRICAL WORK?  HAVE YOU EVER RAN WIRES FOR SOMEONE --

                                 MS. FAHY:  I'M NOT A -- I'M NOT --

                                 MR. DURSO:  IT'S DEFINITELY NOT A FEW EXTRA MINUTES,

                    AND IT'S GOING TO COST HOMEOWNERS THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO RUN THESE

                    WIRES.  IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE.  SO -- SO MY QUESTION IS, ARE WE GIVING

                    HOMEOWNERS AND THE RESIDENTS OF NEW YORK STATE THE SAME TAX BREAKS

                                         273



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THAT WE'RE GOING TO GIVE CONTRACTORS THAT THE STATE IS GIVING TAX BREAKS

                    TO TO BUILD HOUSES?  THAT'S ALL I'M ASKING.

                                 MS. FAHY:  ON NEW CONSTRUCTION IT IS NOT GOING TO

                    BE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.  THE PANELS THEMSELVES CAN BE LAID.  MOST

                    NEW CONSTRUCTION HAS AN ELECTRICIAN THERE, SO IT'S NOT AN ADDITIONAL

                    THOUSANDS.  WHEN YOU HAVE TO GO BACK IN ON OLD CONSTRUCTION, YES, THAT

                    RUNS INTO THE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.  BUT IF THOSE PANELS ARE PUT IN AT THE

                    FRONT END, IT IS -- IT'S PART OF THE CONSTRUCTION.  SO IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO SAY

                    THAT THAT WOULD BE THOUSANDS OF EXTRA DOLLARS, YOU HAVE THE ELECTRICIAN

                    THERE ON SITE FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  SO AGAIN, LIKE WE SAID, THIS IS

                    FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  NEW BUILDS ONLY, RIGHT?  WE SAID WE

                    --

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. DURSO:  -- WE SPOKE ABOUT THE UTILITY

                    COMPANIES, THEY MAY REQUIRE TO BE, YOU KNOW, INSTALL LARGER

                    TRANSFORMERS, BUT THERE IS A FORM THAT YOU CAN FILL OUT FOR A HARDSHIP IF

                    YOU CANNOT GET THE -- POSSIBLY GET THE POWER SOURCE THAT YOU NEED AT

                    THAT SPOT.  I KNOW YOU HAD TALKED ABOUT THIS, THERE'S A MEMO OF SUPPORT

                    I KNOW FROM THE -- FROM WHO WAS IT, THE AUTOMOBILES ASSOCIATION

                    [SIC].  I MEAN, I HAVE NUMEROUS MEMOS OF OPPOSITION, I DON'T -- I DON'T

                    WANT TO BRING THEM UP, BUT, I MEAN, THERE'S MORE THAN ONE.  AND ONCE

                    AGAIN, WE'RE HURTING RESIDENTIAL HOMEOWNERS BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GIVING

                                         274



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THEM THE SAME TAX BREAKS.

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE HAVE -- WE HAVE NUMEROUS SUPPORT

                    MEMOS AS WELL.  AND AGAIN, WE KNOW WE ARE BEHIND ON MEETING SOME

                    OF OUR GOALS, WE KNOW WE'RE BEHIND.  THERE'S A TREMENDOUS INTEREST IN

                    ELECTRIC VEHICLES, AND ONE OF THE SINGLE BIGGEST ISSUES HOLDING UP THE --

                    THE SALE IS THE LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE.  SO GETTING THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IN,

                    ESPECIALLY DURING NEW CONSTRUCTION, WILL ACTUALLY BOOST THE SALES,

                    WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE SUCH STRONG SUPPORT THERE.  WE KNOW THAT THIS IS

                    THE TIME TO BEGIN TO MAKE THESE CHANGES AS OPPOSED TO POST-

                    CONSTRUCTION.  AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN DATA FROM MARYLAND AND

                    CALIFORNIA THAT IS SHOWING WHERE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS ALREADY IN PLACE,

                    IT ACTUALLY IS RETAINING -- OR RESULTING IN A 3.3 PERCENT INCREASE IN THE

                    OVERALL VALUE OF THE HOME OR THE SALE OF THE -- THE HOME WHERE IT'S

                    TURNED OVER.  SO IT'S -- WE ARE SEEING, ACTUALLY, A GOOD RETURN ON THE

                    INVESTMENT FOR HAVING THIS INFRASTRUCTURE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  OKAY.  THANK YOU, MS. FAHY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. DURSO:  I APPRECIATE YOU ANSWERING MY

                    QUESTIONS.

                                 ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. DURSO:  SO I -- I UNDERSTAND, AND I -- AND I

                    APPRECIATE THE SPONSOR TAKING MY QUESTIONS -- WE'LL GET BACK TO IT LATER.

                    THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. PALMESANO.

                                         275



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  YES, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR SOME QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. FAHY, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. FAHY:  CERTAINLY HAPPY TO.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  THANK YOU, MS. FAHY.  I HEARD

                    THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN MY COLLEAGUE, HE CERTAINLY TOUCHED ON A LOT

                    OF GOOD POINTS.  I JUST KIND OF -- I MIGHT REPEAT ON SOME POINTS BUT I

                    HAVE SOME OTHERS AS WELL.  FIRST THING, YOU DID SAY THAT THIS DOES NOT

                    APPLY TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING, CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  CORRECT.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WHY NOT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE FLEXIBILITY, JUST AS THERE'S FLEXIBILITY,

                    WE PUT FLEXIBILITY INTO THE BILL.  THERE'S FLEXIBILITY WHERE YOU DON'T

                    HAVE OFF-STREET PARKING SO, YOU KNOW, WE -- WE CAN'T EXPECT IF -- AGAIN,

                    I MENTIONED A PUBLIC HOUSING UNIT THAT WAS JUST BUILT HERE.  THERE'S

                    VERY FEW PARKING SPACES THERE.  OFTEN WITH AFFORDABLE HOUSING,

                    ESPECIALLY IN OUR URBAN AREAS, THERE IS NO OFF-STREET PARKING.  THERE IS --

                    THERE'S CERTAINLY RARELY GARAGE PARKING, SO IT WAS A FLEXIBILITY JUST AS IT

                    IS FOR ANY PRIVATE HOMEOWNER.  IF YOU ARE BUILDING NEW CONSTRUCTION

                    AND NOT INCLUDING OFF-STREET PARKING THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  ISN'T PART OF IT KIND OF AN

                    ACKNOWLEDGEMENT IF IT'S NOT PART OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IT'S NOT

                    AFFORDABLE BECAUSE THESE MANDATES ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED -- ARE

                    GOING TO INCREASE THE COST FOR DEVELOPMENT, THAT'S GOING TO BE A COST

                                         276



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INCREASE.

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE JUST FINISHED A, YOU KNOW,

                    MULTI-YEAR PACKAGE TO INCREASE AND ENCOURAGE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.  I

                    THINK IT WAS TO GIVE THE PACKAGE THAT WE JUST ADOPTED IN THE BUDGET A

                    CHANCE, BUT CERTAINLY IT IS NOT AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.  THIS IS WHEN IT'S

                    AT THE AFFORDABLE END.  PLUS KEEP IN MIND, ANY PRIVATE SECTOR

                    INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE GOING TO BE PUTTING IN THESE CHARGERS, THERE ARE ALL

                    SORTS OF INCENTIVE PACKAGES OUT THERE JUST AS WE HAVE A NUMBER OF

                    INCENTIVE PACKAGES AT THE FEDERAL AND STATE LEVEL OF TAX CREDITS TO BUY

                    ELECTRIC VEHICLES.  AGAIN, I HAPPEN TO OWN ONE.  THERE'S -- IT'S

                    EXPENSIVE AT THE FRONT END TO PUT IN SOME OF THIS, INCREDIBLY AFFORDABLE

                    AT THE BACK END BECAUSE OF -- BECAUSE YOU'RE DRIVING -- BECAUSE IT'S SO

                    INEXPENSIVE TO DRIVE AND OPERATE THESE VEHICLES.  IT'S JUST THE UPFRONT

                    COSTS THAT ARE OFTEN -- THAT OFTEN HIT A -- A CONSUMER AT THE FRONT END OR

                    IN THIS CASE SOMEBODY BUILDING NEW CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  OKAY.  AND JUST -- I PROBABLY

                    SHOULD'VE STARTED WITH THIS QUESTION.  THIS IS ALL PART OF THE -- TO ADDRESS

                    THE MANDATES AND THE GOALS OF THE CLCPA, CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT'S NOT JUST TO ADDRESS THE GOALS WHICH I

                    THINK ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.  IT'S ALSO TO ADDRESS OUR ENVIRONMENT.

                    REMEMBER, WE HAVE ASTHMA RATES THAT ARE OFF THE CHARTS IN MANY AREAS,

                    PARTICULARLY IN OUR MOST CONGESTED AREAS.  SO ELECTRIC VEHICLES NOT ONLY

                    DO THEY RUN QUIETLY, THEY RUN CLEANLY, SO IT'S ALSO A HEALTH-RELATED ISSUE.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WE CAN CERTAINLY HAVE A DEBATE

                    ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND HOW SAFE THEY ARE --

                                         277



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  OH, I GUESS I WON'T GET YOU STARTED ON

                    THAT BILL.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WE'LL GET THERE SOON ENOUGH,

                    DON'T WORRY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YEP.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  MY COLLEAGUE WAS TALKING

                    ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE PRIVATE RESIDENCES AND YOU HAVE COMMERCIAL.

                    YOU SAID WITH COMMERCIAL (INAUDIBLE) BE THE MANDATE THERE IN PLACE,

                    THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE ACTUAL CHARGING IN PLACE THERE FOR THE

                    COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT, CORRECT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  SO WITH THAT BEING THE CASE,

                    ISN'T THAT MANDATE A COSTLY MANDATE TO THE -- NOW THAT A BUSINESS WANTS

                    TO COME -- MIGHT WANT TO COME -- LET'S SAY THEY WANTED TO COME TO

                    NEW YORK, NOW THEY'RE MANDATED TO MEET THESE MANDATES, SO ISN'T THAT

                    A DISINCENTIVE FOR THEM TO INVEST AFTER A MANDATE WITH A HIGHER COST OF

                    THE CONSTRUCTION COST?

                                 MS. FAHY:  ACTUALLY, I THINK IT'S A GOOD BUSINESS

                    PRACTICE.  IN FACT, IT'S A TREMENDOUSLY GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE, IT'S PART OF

                    MARKETING.  I HEARD FROM ONE OF MY RURAL SCHOOL DISTRICTS EARLIER THIS

                    YEAR, ONE OF THE BEST THINGS THEY DID IS PUT IN SOME EV CHARGERS.  IT

                    REALLY HELPED WITH STAFF WHO WERE ABLE TO CHARGE THEIR CAR DURING THE

                    DAY AND DRIVE THEM WITH ALMOST NO COST.  SO IT'S ACTUALLY -- FOR ME IT'S A

                    -- IT'S A -- OR TO ME IT'S A BETTER BUSINESS PRACTICE AND KEEP IN MIND FOR

                    THE COMMERCIAL BUILDING, AGAIN, ONLY NEW CONSTRUCTION.

                                         278



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  I UNDERSTAND.

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT JUST MEANS IF THERE'S ONE TO TEN

                    PARKING SPACES, ONE HAS TO BE EV-READY.  SO IN THAT CASE IT'S NOT A

                    HUNDRED PERCENT EV-READY, IT'S ONE OUT OF TEN.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 11

                    PARKING SPACES AS A PART OF THAT COMMERCIAL BUILDING, IT'S 20 PERCENT.

                    THAT'S A -- MANY BUSINESSES, EXISTING BUSINESSES ARE DOING THAT NOW,

                    WE'RE JUST SAYING MAKE IT EV-READY WITH NEW CONSTRUCTION AS WELL.

                    TRUTHFULLY, WE HAVE NOT HAD PUSHBACK ON THAT ONE BECAUSE SO MANY

                    ARE DOING IT WITH EVEN EXISTING COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  AND SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT

                    EV-READY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WIRES, THE PLUGS, THE --

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES, IT'S THE PANEL --

                                 MR. PALMESANO: -- THE ELECTRIC --

                                 MS. FAHY:  RIGHT.  IT'S THE PANEL THAT GOES IN

                    UNDERGROUND TO -- TO ALLOW THAT CHARGER TO THEN BE ADDED WHERE

                    APPROPRIATE OR WHERE NEEDED DOWN THE ROAD.  SO IF YOU'RE BUILDING A

                    NEW HOME, YOU DON'T HAVE AN EV CAR RIGHT NOW, GET THE PANEL IN. IT

                    WILL HELP YOU TO RESELL IF YOU EVER DECIDE TO, OR MAKE IT EASIER.  SO IT'S

                    ANYWHERE FROM 1,000 -- WELL, SOME RATES ARE AS LOW AS $150 TO $1,000

                    TO GET THAT PANEL IN, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY MUCH CHEAPER THAN HAVING TO DO IT

                    AFTER CONSTRUCTION -- AFTER NEW CONSTRUCTION WHERE THEN THE COST CAN BE

                    AS -- AS HIGH AS $10,000 DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU ARE.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE

                    FEASIBILITY OF THIS BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU TALKED TO THE AUTOMOBILE

                    DEALERS BUT YOU DIDN'T TALK TO ANY OF THE UTILITIES OR THE NYSEG.  MUCH

                                         279



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF THE ENERGY POLICY IN THE STATE HAS BEEN DONE WITHOUT REALLY

                    CONSULTING WITH THOSE THAT PROVIDE THE POWER.  WOULDN'T IT BE WISE

                    BEFORE WE MANDATE THIS TO HAPPEN?  SHOULDN'T THERE BE A FEASIBILITY

                    STUDY TO SEE IF IT CAN WORK, IF THE GRID CAN HANDLE IT?  JUST LIKE WE

                    IGNORE -- WE DIDN'T DO IT WITH OUR SCHOOL BUS, MAKE IT A SCHOOL BUS

                    MANDATE, TOO.

                                 MS. FAHY:  DEFINITELY NOT, BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL I

                    TALKED TO UTILITY COMPANIES AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK, I CARRY THE HEAT BILL

                    SO I'M IN REGULAR TOUCH WITH THOSE UTILITY COMPANIES.  WE HAVE A

                    WAIVER MECHANISM HERE SO WE'VE HAD NO PUSHBACK, I'VE HAD THEM IN

                    JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AND NO PUSHBACK WHATSOEVER BECAUSE THERE

                    IS A HARDSHIP WAIVER FROM LOCAL UTILITY PROVIDERS WHERE THERE ARE A

                    BURDEN OR A COMPLIANCE ISSUE, AND KEEP IN MIND THESE ARE FOR VEHICLES.

                    YOU KNOW, IT'S A -- THERE'S -- WE HAVE NOT HEARD OF ANY PLACE THAT

                    WOULDN'T HAVE THIS TYPE OF POWER AVAILABLE NOW ESPECIALLY FOR NEW

                    CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER

                    QUESTION.  SO YOU GOT A NEW -- YOU GOT A NEW RESIDENT (INAUDIBLE)

                    CONSTRUCTION.  THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO PUT

                    A CHARGING IN THE GARAGE, CORRECT, IF THEY DON'T HAVE OFF-STREET PARKING?

                                 MS. FAHY:  SURE.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  SO NOW GM HAS TOLD PEOPLE,

                    OTHER ELECTRIC VEHICLE COMPANIES, OTHER COMPANIES HAVE TOLD PEOPLE TO

                    CHARGE 50 FEET AWAY FROM YOUR STRUCTURE.  NOW HOW IS THAT WISE TO SAY

                    YOU GOT TO INSTALL A CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE IN YOUR GARAGE WHEN IT'S

                                         280



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BEEN RECOMMENDED FROM A SAFETY PERSPECTIVE TO CHARGE WITHIN 50 FEET

                    AWAY FROM THE STRUCTURE?  HOW IS THAT NOT A SAFETY CONCERN THAT'S NOT

                    BEING ADDRESSED BY THIS BILL?

                                 MS. FAHY:  SORRY.  I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT

                    50 FEET AWAY.  I THINK THE SPEAKER HAS ONE IN HIS GARAGE SO...

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WELL, I'M NOT SAYING THEY DON'T

                    BUT THE RECOMMENDATION IS OUT THERE NOT TO BE -- TO BE FURTHER AWAY.

                    NOT -- IN SOME INSTANCES BE OUTSIDE OF THE PROPERTY STRUCTURE SO, AND

                    GM HAS SAID 50 FEET AWAY.  SO THAT BEING SAID --

                                 MS. FAHY:  BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT WOULD BE

                    UP TO THE PROPERTY OWNER.  I -- I HAVE A GARAGE, I CHARGE MY CAR OUTSIDE

                    --

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WELL, YOU JUST SAID --

                                 MS. FAHY: --  BECAUSE I -- I MEAN SO THAT'S UP TO THE

                    -- THAT'S UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL ON WHERE THEY WANT THE CHARGER.  IF THERE'S

                    SOME GM RECOMMENDATION, I'VE NOT HEARD IT.  BUT EITHER WAY, IF YOU

                    HAVE A DRIVEWAY -- IF YOU HAVE A GARAGE, PRESUMABLY YOU ALSO HAVE

                    SOMEWHAT OF A DRIVEWAY.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  RIGHT, BUT WHERE -- WHERE DOES

                    THAT INFRASTRUCTURE GO IF IT'S NOT IN THE GARAGE?  WHERE DOES IT GO IF IT'S

                    --

                                 MS. FAHY:  MINE PLUGS IN RIGHT IN MY DRIVEWAY.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  SO THERE'S AN ELECTRIC -- ELECTRIC

                    PLUG RIGHT IN THE DRIVEWAY OUTSIDE 50 FEET AWAY FROM THE STRUCTURE?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I JUST PLUG IN TO MY -- TO MY EXISTING --

                                         281



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WHAT ABOUT -- WHAT ABOUT

                    WE'VE SEEN THE FIRES WITH EVS, WE'VE OBVIOUSLY SEEN THEM WITH THE

                    SCOOTERS AND ELECTRIC BIKES DOWN IN THE CITY.  WE KNOW THIS CAN

                    HAPPEN, WE KNOW THEY CAN CATCH ON FIRE.  WHAT ABOUT -- IS THERE

                    ANYTHING IN THIS THAT WOULD REQUIRE FIRE SUPPRESSION AND FIRE HAZARDS TO

                    DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE, TOO, BECAUSE WE KNOW IT HAPPENS, WE KNOW IT WILL

                    CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.

                                 MS. FAHY:  YEAH, NOT -- NOT -- NOT WITH THE EV

                    CHARGER INFRASTRUCTURE.  WE ARE NOT SEEING IT.  I THINK THERE'S BEEN SOME

                    ISSUES IN CHINA, DIFFERENT INFRASTRUCTURES BEST I KNOW.  WE -- WE ARE

                    DEFINITELY NOT SEEING THEM.  AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE'D HAVE SUCH STRONG

                    SUPPORT IF -- IF WE DID.  IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WERE WITH

                    SCOOTERS OR E -- E-BIKES.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  SO WHEN YOU SAY IT'S DIFFERENT

                    BUT YOU DON'T THINK EVS CATCH ON FIRE, YOU DON'T THINK ELECTRIC SCHOOL

                    BUSES CAN CATCH ON FIRE?  I MEAN I'VE SEEN VIDEOS --

                                 MS. FAHY:  THEY ARE NOT --

                                 MR. PALMESANO: -- WHEN THEY CATCH ON FIRE THEY

                    BURN HOT AND THEY BURN LONG. SO CERTAINLY IF WE'RE GOING TO MANDATE

                    THIS IN THIS CONSTRUCTION, SHOULDN'T WE MAKE MANDATE TO (INAUDIBLE)

                    SUPPRESSION IN PLACE TO DEAL WITH IT AS WELL?  SAME THING WITH OUR

                    SCHOOL BUSES WHICH THIS BODY COMPLETELY IGNORED, TOO.

                                 MS. FAHY:  I DON'T THINK WE'VE COMPLETELY IGNORED

                    THAT.  WE KNOW SCHOOL BUSES, EVEN TRADITIONAL SCHOOL BUSES, CAN START

                    ON FIRE, BUT THE POINT IS WE DO NOT HAVE EVIDENCE OF THE CHARGER GOING

                                         282



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ON FIRE.  YES, THERE'S BEEN AN ISSUE WITH E-BIKES AND CERTAINLY WE'VE

                    ADDRESSED THAT IN THIS BODY AND I'VE SUPPORTED A NUMBER OF BILLS ON

                    THAT, BUT IT IS NOT ON -- NOT ON THE CHARGERS THEMSELVES --

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  BUT THE CHARGERS --

                                 MS. FAHY: -- AND AGAIN, CERTAINLY MOST PEOPLE HAVE

                    I THINK AS PART OF ANY TYPE OF CODES ANYWAY, WE HAVE EXTINGUISHERS THAT

                    ARE REQUIRED.  AGAIN, THAT IS GIVEN THE RARITY OF THAT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW,

                    THAT IS -- THAT IS NOT A REASON NOT TO PROMOTE AND SUPPORT THE GROWTH OF

                    EV CARS.  OVERALL, I MEAN THERE'S A RISK THE MINUTE YOU PULL OUT THE

                    DRIVEWAY OF BEING HIT AS WELL.  THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T DRIVE.  IT

                    MEANS YOU JUST MINIMIZE YOUR RISK.  WE ARE MINIMIZING THAT RISK

                    EVERYDAY WITH BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  WELL, I CAN THINK OF A NUMBER

                    OF REASONS WHY NOT TO PROMOTE EVS BUT THAT'S A WHOLE NOTHER

                    DISCUSSION, TOO.  YOU DID MENTION WHEN THERE'S SO MANY INCENTIVES OUT

                    THERE AND NYSERDA, THERE'S YOU SAID LIKE A WHOLE LAUNDRY LIST OF

                    THEM, WHERE DOES THAT MONEY COME FROM?  IT COMES FROM THE

                    RATEPAYERS, CORRECT, THROUGH SURCHARGES AND FEES ON THEIR -- ON UTILITY

                    BILLS, RIGHT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  WHICH A LOT OF THOSE HAVE BEEN FEDERAL

                    GRANTS IN RECENT YEARS AS WELL AS SOME STATE GRANTS.  SO IT'S NOT THE

                    RATEPAYERS.  A LOT OF THAT CAME THROUGH THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT

                    AND A WHOLE HOST OF -- I MEAN THERE'S A LOTS OF GRANTS OUT THERE TO --

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  BUT YOU SAID -- BUT YOU SAID

                    NYSERDA, NYSERDA'S MONEY COMES FROM THE RATEPAYER.

                                         283



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  NYSERDA MONEY COMES FROM A WHOLE

                    HOST OF SOURCES --

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  INCLUDING THE RATEPAYER --

                                 MS. FAHY:  PRIMARILY IT'S COMING --

                                 MR. PALMESANO: -- THE RATEPAYER.

                                 MS. FAHY:  NO, IT'S COMING FROM --

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  YES, IT IS.

                                 MS. FAHY: -- THE FEDS AS WELL.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  NO, IT'S NOT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE INCENTIVE PROGRAMS HAVE MOSTLY

                    BEEN THE FEDERAL -- THE INFLATION REDUCTION AND OTHERS -- BUT YES.  DOES

                    NYSERDA GET MONEY FROM RATEPAYERS, SURE, BUT AGAIN --

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  ONE QUICK QUESTION OFF TOPIC.

                    YOU JUST SAID IT'S COME FROM THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, IT'S COMING

                    FROM --

                                 MS. FAHY:  BUT THAT WAS ONE EXAMPLE OF THE FEDERAL

                    GRANT -- YOU'RE INTERRUPTING ME.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  ONE EXAMPLE, I MEAN EVERYONE

                    TALKS ABOUT THE ELECTRIC SCHOOL BUS -- I KNOW I'M GOING OFF (INAUDIBLE)

                    BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES.  YOU SAID THAT EVERYONE

                    PROMOTES THE 500 MILLION IN THE BOND ACT FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE

                    PURCHASES, AND THEN THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.  DOREEN HARRIS AT THE

                    BUDGET HEARING STATED TO THE PUBLIC THAT IF WE -- WITH ALL THE FEDERAL

                    AND STATE MONEY THAT'S IN PLACE, HOW MANY ELECTRIC SCHOOL BUSES COULD

                    THAT PURCHASE.  SHE STATED 3,000, BUT YET WE HAVE A FLEET OF NEARLY

                                         284



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    47,000 SCHOOL BUSES SO THAT'S GOING TO BE BORNE BY THE PROPERTY

                    TAXPAYER, THAT'S GOING TO BE BORNE BY THE RATEPAYER SO NYSERDA'S

                    MONEY COMES THROUGH THE RATEPAYER AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH --

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE'RE NOT HERE TO TALK ABOUT EV BUSES

                    RIGHT NOW BUT I'D BE HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THOSE AND MY GUESS IS

                    SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE 3,000 CURRENTLY, AS YOU KNOW THAT'S A MULTI,

                    MULTI-YEAR EFFORT SO MAYBE IT'S 3,000 RIGHT NOW, IT'S EXPECTED TO BE

                    MUCH MORE BUT AGAIN, RIGHT NOW WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT EV CARS AND

                    HOW WE GET READY TO ASSIST THOSE CARS.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  I UNDERSTAND.

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE KNOW THIS IS ALREADY UNDERWAY WITH

                    MOST NEW CONSTRUCTION LET ALONE EXISTING CONSTRUCTION.  WE ARE JUST

                    MAKING SURE THAT IT IS THERE AND INCENTIVIZING IT AND REQUIRING IT EVEN

                    MORE.  AND AGAIN, WE GO BACK TO THE AUTO DEALERS WHO RECOGNIZE AND

                    WANT TO SELL THESE VEHICLES AS THEY HAVE SAID, THEY NEED ALL THE

                    INCENTIVES THEY CAN GET.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  ALL RIGHT.  MS. FAHY, THANK YOU

                    --

                                 MS. FAHY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. PALMESANO: -- FOR YOUR TIME.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  AS THE SPONSOR MENTIONED, THIS

                    IS PART OF THE CLCPA WHICH WE PASSED IN 2019 WHICH HAS A NUMBER OF

                    MANDATES.  IN MY OPINION, MY COLLEAGUES' OPINION, THIS IS GOING TO

                                         285



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INCREASE HOUSING CONSTRUCTION COSTS, HOUSING COSTS FOR INDIVIDUALS.  I

                    MEAN I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE THINGS

                    EV-READY BUT THOSE CHARGERS COST MORE MONEY, COST IS GOING TO

                    INCREASE COST FOR THE CONSTRUCTION SIDE, FOR THE RATEPAYER, FOR THE

                    BUSINESSES.  WHEN WE CONTINUE TO SAY THAT THERE'S THIS LITANY OF

                    PROGRAMS OUT THERE FOR NYSERDA THAT COMES FROM THE RATEPAYER, WHY

                    AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS RESTRICTED FROM THIS, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY

                    RECOGNIZED BECAUSE THIS PLAN IS NOT AFFORDABLE.  WE'D BE BETTER OFF TO

                    LET THE MARKET DICTATE THIS INSTEAD OF LETTING THE GOVERNMENT MANDATE IT.

                    IT'S JUST GOING TO CONTINUE TO INCREASE COSTS.  I THINK THERE'S OTHER

                    PROBLEMS WITH THIS AND I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CLCPA, WHICH

                    THIS IS A PART OF, HAS TO DEAL WITH, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS IS ALL PART

                    OF A PLAN THAT WILL WORK TO DISMANTLE OUR EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE,

                    AFFORDABLE AND RELIABLE, TO A MARCH TO FULL ELECTRIFICATION, A MARCH TO

                    FULL ELECTRIFICATION FOR EVS, MARCH TO FULL ELECTRIFICATION FOR HOMES.  IT'S

                    BASICALLY DESIGNED TO TAKE AWAY CONSUMER CHOICE ON HOW YOU HEAT

                    YOUR HOME, COOK YOUR FOOD, POWER YOUR VEHICLES AND POWER YOUR

                    BUILDINGS AND THE VEHICLES YOU DRIVE.  IT WILL JEOPARDIZE THE RELIABILITY

                    OF THE GRID AND LEAD TO BLACKOUTS.  NOTHING IN THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT

                    CONSULTING WITH THE UTILITIES AND NYISO TO MAKE SURE THE GRID CAN

                    HANDLE IT.  THIS WHOLE ENERGY PLAN OF FULL ELECTRIFICATION IS MOVING

                    FORWARD WITHOUT TAKING A FEASIBILITY STUDY AND SEEING WHETHER THE GRID

                    CAN HANDLE IT.  I UNDERSTAND, IF YOU ASK PEOPLE HEY, YOU WANT TO BE A

                    PART OF -- SUPPORT GREEN ENERGY, THEY'RE GOING TO SAY YES, BUT THEN YOU

                    ASK WILL YOU SPEND $10, 20, 50 OR MORE A MONTH ON UTILITY BILL, THEY'RE

                                         286



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    GOING TO SAY NO. WHEN YOU TALK TO YOUR BUSINESSES, WHEN THEY TALK

                    ABOUT ENERGY SUPPLY, THEY'RE GOING TO ASK ABOUT TWO THINGS,

                    AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AND YOUR TIME IS UP.

                                               MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES FOR THE PURPOSES OF A

                    ANNOUNCEMENT.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  WOULD YOU PLEASE CALL THE CODES COMMITTEE TO THE PARLOR

                    FOR --

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  CODES COMMITTEE IN

                    THE PARLOR.  LET ME SAY IT AGAIN, IN THE PARLOR IMMEDIATELY, PLEASE.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 SECOND 15.

                                 MR. PALMESANO ON THE BILL THAT'S ON THE BOARD, PLEASE.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  YES, AND THIS ALL -- EVERYTHING

                    I'M TALKING ABOUT HAS TO DO WITH THIS BILL AS THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT THE

                    CLCPA, THIS BILL TALKS ABOUT ELECTRIFICATION, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING

                    ABOUT WHEN I'M TALKING HERE ON MY TIME TONIGHT.  AS WE MENTIONED,

                    AFFORDABILITY AND RELIABILITY CONTINUE TO BE A CONCERN.  WE TALKED ABOUT

                    THE AFFORDABILITY HERE.  WE'VE TALKED ABOUT RELIABILITY OF ELECTRIC

                    VEHICLES, RANGE ISSUES, WE DIDN'T GET INTO THAT IN THIS DISCUSSION.  WE'VE

                    -- JUST FOR THE RECORD, NO ONE ON THIS SIDE OF THE AISLE HAS EVER SAID WE

                    SHOULDN'T INVEST IN RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGY, RENEWABLE RESOURCES.  WE

                    SHOULD AND WE ARE.  AND IN FACT, IN NEW YORK STATE WE'VE REDUCED

                    EMISSIONS SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE PAST COUPLE DECADES.  WE'VE REDUCED

                                         287



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS SIGNIFICANTLY, (INAUDIBLE) EMISSIONS AND WE

                    CONTINUE TO DO SO. BUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN ARGUING FOR HERE IS A BALANCE,

                    FEASIBILITY, COMMONSENSE IN OUR ENERGY POLICY.  I MEAN JUST LIKE YOUR

                    401K YOU DON'T PUT IT ALL IN STOCKS, CASH AND BONDS.  WE SHOULD BALANCE

                    OUR ENERGY PORTFOLIO TO DO THE SAME THING.  IT SHOULD BE FOR, YOU KNOW

                    -- SO YES.  WHEN YOU LOOK AT ELECTRIFICATION, BUT NATURAL GAS SHOULD BE A

                    PART OF THAT PORTFOLIO, NUCLEAR SHOULD BE A PART OF THAT PORTFOLIO, WIND,

                    SOLAR AND HYDRO SHOULD BE A PART OF THAT PORTFOLIO.  UPSTATE NEW YORK,

                    90 PERCENT OF OUR ENERGY IS CLEAN ENERGY.  WE HAVE HYDRO, WE HAVE

                    NUCLEAR, WE HAVE WIND AND SOLAR.  UNFORTUNATELY DOWNSTATE IS 90

                    PERCENT FOSSIL FUEL.  WHEN I LOOK AT THE ENERGY POLICY OF THIS STATE

                    WHICH THIS IS A PART OF, THE CLCPA MANDATED THAT WE PASSED IN 2019,

                    THAT'S GOING UNDER THE TRAIN TRACKS AT OUR RESIDENTS, AT OUR BUSINESSES

                    THAT NO ONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT.  WE HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY TAKEN AWAY

                    LOCAL CONTROL, LOCAL AUTHORITY ON IMPLEMENTING, ON SITING OF WIND AND

                    SOLAR, THEN IN THIS BUDGET WE DID THE SAME THING WITH TRANSMISSION AND

                    BATTERY STORAGE THAT'S (INAUDIBLE), THAT'S CONCERNING.  ALSO THE SAME

                    TIME WE TOOK AWAY THE ASSESSMENT EVALUATION, AUTHORITY OF OUR

                    ASSESSORS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY WON'T ALLOW THEM TO DEAL WITH THE

                    ASSESSMENTS BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY GET MORE OF THIS SITED

                    TO BRING THE POWER DOWNSTATE THAT'S BEING SUBSIDIZED BY POWER PEOPLE

                    UPSTATE THROUGH HIGHER RATES.

                                 THE FACT OF THE MATTER, TOO, IS 60 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE

                    IN NEW YORK STATE HEAT THEIR HOMES WITH NATURAL GAS, 40 PERCENT OF

                    OUR GENERATION COMES FROM NATURAL GAS.  AND WE SAY WELL, YOU KNOW,

                                         288



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WE'RE SAVING THE ENVIRONMENT, WE'RE SAVING OUR CLIMATE.  ARE WE

                    REALLY, THOUGH, WHEN NEW YORK ONLY CONTRIBUTES 0.4 PERCENT OF TOTAL

                    GLOBAL EMISSIONS, BUT THEN THERE'S CHINA ACROSS THE WORLD WITH 30

                    PERCENT OF GLOBAL EMISSIONS, THEY HAVE 1,000 COAL PLANTS AND BUILDING

                    MORE EVERY WEEK.  WE HAVE NO COAL PLANTS IN NEW YORK STATE.  AND IF

                    YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT INDIA AND RUSSIA, THAT'S 40 PERCENT OF GLOBAL

                    EMISSIONS AND WE'RE .4.  AND WHAT ARE WE DOING?  WE'RE MOVING FULL

                    SPEED AHEAD WITHOUT SOMETHING THAT'S PROVEN, WITHOUT A FEASIBILITY

                    STUDY.  WE NEVER DID A TRUE COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS AND THE ESTIMATES OF

                    THIS THING ARE SIGNIFICANT, OVER 300+ BILLION DOLLARS JUST TO IMPLEMENT

                    IT.  BUT THE OTHERS SAY THE BENEFITS OUTRATE THE RETURNS AND IT'S JUST NOT

                    THE CASE.  I TALKED ABOUT IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE

                    TO HEAR IT BUT IT'S A FACT, IT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING, IT'S WHAT THIS BODY, WHAT

                    THE GOVERNOR IS DOING TO OUR RATEPAYERS.  WHAT THE GOVERNOR, WHAT THIS

                    BODY IS DOING TO OUR SMALL BUSINESSES, OUR MANUFACTURERS, AND OUR

                    FARMERS.  LET ALONE IF WE DO NOT CHANGE THE METHODOLOGY, PRICES AT THE

                    PUMP ARE GOING TO INCREASE 63 CENTS A GALLON AND HOME HEATING COSTS

                    AND NATURAL GAS ARE GOING TO INCREASE BY 79 PERCENT.  THE PSC LAST YEAR

                    TO APPROVE FOR FUNDING DOLLARS THAT ARE GOING TO GO TO PAY FOR GREEN

                    PROGRAMS LIKE THIS, $43 BILLION IN FUTURE RATEPAYER INCREASES THEY SAID

                    TO PAY FOR THESE CLEAN, SO-CALLED CLEAN GREEN ENERGY MANDATES.  THREE

                    STUDIES THAT WERE DONE BY THE CLIMATE ACTION COUNCIL PLAN, WHICH

                    CAME FROM THE CLCPA WHICH THIS BILL IS A PART OF, SAID JUST TO FULLY

                    ELECTRIFY YOUR HOME TO MEET THE ELECTRIFICATION MANDATE, THE GOAL, IT'S

                    GOING TO COST RESIDENTS $20- TO $50,000 TO CONVERT THEIR HOME FROM

                                         289



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NATURAL GAS TO FULLY ELECTRIC.  ON TOP OF THAT THE CONSUMER ENERGY

                    ALLIANCE DID ANOTHER STUDY WHICH SAID 35+ THOUSAND DOLLARS.  ANOTHER

                    ORGANIZATION SAID 40- TO $50,000 FOR OLDER HOUSING STOCK.  THEN WE

                    HAVE THE MOTHER OF ALL UNFUNDED MANDATES THE SCHOOL BUS -- THE EV

                    SCHOOL BUS MANDATE THAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE BEGINNING IN

                    2027.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. PALMESANO,

                    PLEASE TRY AND STAY WITH THE BILL ON THE BOARD.  I UNDERSTAND THE

                    PURPOSES OF YOUR DISCUSSION, BUT IT IS THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS.  COULD

                    YOU STAY ON THE BILL THAT'S ON THE BOARD, PLEASE?

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  SURE.  I'LL DO MY BEST, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  SO I CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON.  I UNDERSTAND IT'S A LATE HOUR.  I

                    SHOULD BUT I'LL TRY TO CUT IT BACK.  WE JUST NEED TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE

                    ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT TO THE PUBLIC ON WHAT WE'RE DOING, WE'RE

                    NOT.  I SEE IT.  I SEE IT WITH CAP AND INVEST.  THEY'RE GOING TO COME UP

                    WITH RECOMMENDATIONS THAT'S NOT GOING TO COME BACK TO THIS HOUSE FOR

                    A VOTE.  THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WE'RE VOTING ON.  WE SHOULD BE VOTING ON

                    ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO BE GOING DOWN THE PIPELINE ON OUR

                    RATEPAYERS, ON OUR BUSINESSES.  SO WHETHER IT'S COST AFFORDABILITY OR

                    RELIABILITY, PROPERTY TAXES, LAND USE.  I MEAN LAND USE FOR SOLAR AND

                    WIND.  I MEAN TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF LAND ACRES JUST BEING TALKED FOR

                    ONE -- ONE MEGAWATT OF SOLAR REQUIRES EIGHT ACRES OF LAND.  THE CLIMATE

                    ACTION COUNCIL PLAN CALLS FOR 60 GIGAWATTS OF SOLAR, THAT'S 480,000

                    ACRES OF LAND USE.  AND THEN TALKING ABOUT THE PROPERTY TAXES BEING

                    TAKEN FROM OUR GENERATORS, $1.7 BILLION AND OUR UTILITIES GET PAID

                                         290



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PROPERTY TAXES BASED WHEN THE GAS GOES THROUGH THE PIPES.  IF THE GAS

                    ISN'T ALLOWED TO GO THROUGH THE PIPES, THEY'RE GOING TO DECOMMISSION

                    THOSE, THAT COST IS GOING TO SHIFTED, IT MAY DEPRECIATE THAT ASSET.  OUR

                    ENERGY SECURITY, 80 PERCENT OF THE SOLAR IS CONTROLLED BY CHINA, 80

                    PERCENT OF THE RARE-EARTH MATERIALS IS CONTROLLED BY CHINA THROUGH THE

                    PROCESSING AND HOW DO THEY PROCESS?  THEY USE COAL ENERGY.  I TALKED

                    TIME AND TIME AGAIN ABOUT THE HUMAN RIGHTS, ENVIRONMENTAL AND FIRE

                    SAFETY STANDARDS.  I COULD KEEP GOING ON AND ON, BUT OUT OF RESPECT TO

                    THE COMMENT OF THE SPEAKER I'LL STOP FROM THERE.  BUT I SEE VERY BIG

                    PROBLEMS WITH THIS ENERGY PLAN, THIS ENERGY AGENDA THAT NO ONE EVER

                    WANTS TO TALK ABOUT, NO ONE WANTS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR.  THEY SAY

                    HOW GREAT IT IS, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT THE PROBLEMATIC SIDE OF

                    THIS ISSUE.  SO I WILL CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT IT, MAYBE NOT TONIGHT,

                    MAYBE TOMORROW.  I DON'T KNOW.  BUT THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I VOTE

                    NO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  WELL, IT'S NOT TIME TO

                    VOTE YET.

                                 MR. BROWN.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. FAHY, WILL YOU

                    YIELD?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  THANK YOU, MADAM SPONSOR.

                    WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THIS BILL MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE CONSTRUCTION

                                         291



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INDUSTRY BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING NEW PROJECTS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  THANK YOU, AND I AGREE AS WELL.

                    MY QUESTION WILL HAVE A LITTLE PREFACE SO THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND

                    WHERE I'M GOING WITH THIS.  IT JUST SO HAPPENS AS WE SPEAK, I'M ACTUALLY

                    BUILDING OR RENOVATING A FAMILY COMPOUND FOR ONE OF THE WORLD'S

                    LARGEST OWNERS OF CHARGING STATIONS SO I'M VERY (INAUDIBLE) AWARE OF

                    HOW THIS WORKS AND PART OF THE PROJECT IS A MASSIVE GARAGE WITH

                    ELECTRIC CARS.  AND I THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND THE COST OF THESE THINGS AND

                    HOW THIS GOES.  SO MY FIRST QUESTION IS SINCE THIS HAS GREATLY TO DO WITH

                    THE BUILDING INDUSTRY, WHAT ARE THE OFFICE OF OFPC SAY OR (INAUDIBLE)

                    SAY WHEN WE PROPOSED THIS LEGISLATION, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CERTAINLY

                    THE FIRST STOP FOR ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT.  WHAT WAS THEIR

                    OPINION?

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE -- WE DIDN'T HEAR FROM THEM.  THIS

                    HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SITING.  THIS IS NOT SITING.  THIS IS --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  NO, I APOLOGIZE.

                                 MS. FAHY:  ABOUT SITING --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  I APOLOGIZE.  THE OFFICE OF FIRE

                    PREVENTION AND CONTROL, THAT'S THE FIRST STOP FOR THIS BILL.  YOU WOULDN'T

                    HAVE DONE ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE YOU WENT TO THEM BECAUSE I'LL EXPLAIN

                    TO YOU WHY, IF I MAY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  BUT JUST TO BE -- SORRY, JUST TO BE CLEAR.

                    THERE'S BEEN ALMOST NO INCIDENCES, IN FACT WE WERE EVEN CHECKING

                    ABOUT THIS 50 FOOT -- THE COMMENT THAT WAS MADE EARLIER ABOUT 50 FEET

                                         292



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AWAY FROM A STRUCTURE.  WE CAN'T FIND ANYTHING TO SUBSTANTIATE THAT.  SO

                    FIRE PREVENTION IS ACTUALLY SO NEGLIGIBLE, I WAS JUST VISITING AN EV

                    MANUFACTURER HERE LOCALLY TO PRODUCE THESE CHARGING STRUCTURES.

                    NOTHING.  IT'S A -- IT'S A MANUFACTURER CONNECTED THAT A PLANT IN

                    ROTTERDAM CONNECTED -- IN A WHOLE INDUSTRIAL PARK CONNECTED TO A

                    WHOLE HOST OF BUILDINGS, NOTHING ABOUT A FIRE CAME UP.  SO CERTAINLY I

                    THINK WE WOULD HAVE HEARD FROM THE FIRE CONTROL OFFICE HAD THERE BEEN

                    A PROBLEM BUT THIS IS JUST -- YES, I KNOW THERE'S BEEN THE ISSUE WITH EV

                    BIKES.  THAT GENERALLY ARE BATTERIES THAT ARE MADE IN CHINA, AND IT IS A

                    CERTAIN LEVEL OF BATTERY.  WE'VE ADDRESSED THAT WITH OTHER LEGISLATION.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  I APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONSE.

                                 MS. FAHY:  SURE.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  MAYBE I DIDN'T STATE MY QUESTION

                    PROPERLY.

                                 MS. FAHY:  OKAY.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT THAN WHAT

                    YOU'RE REFERRING TO SO LET ME EXPLAIN AGAIN.  WHEN A BUILDING IS -- IS

                    CONSTRUCTED, OR THE PROPOSITION OF A BUILDING TO BE CONSTRUCTED, A PLAN

                    IS DRAWN AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SUBMITTALS.  YOU HAVE THE INITIAL

                    PLAN, WHETHER IT'S GOING TO GO FOR ZONING, SUBDIVISIONS, WHATEVER IT IS

                    BUT EVENTUALLY YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE A PERMIT.  PART OF THAT PERMIT IS THE

                    MEPS ARE DRAWN; THE MECHANICAL, ELECTRIC, PLUMBING, HVAC, ALL HAS

                    TO BE PROPOSED.  IN THIS CASE, LET'S SAY IT'S A BUILDING OF 20 UNITS, PART OF

                    THE PLAN IS THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A DRAWING OF THESE ELECTRICAL

                    COMPONENTS FOR THE CHARGING STATIONS THAT HAVE TO GO IN. THE

                                         293



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    COMPOUND I'M DOING NOW, I HAD TO SUBMIT THROUGH THE EQUIVALENT OF

                    THE OFPC FOR APPROVAL.  WHY?  BECAUSE WHEN YOU EXCEED A CERTAIN

                    AMPERAGE IN A CERTAIN LOCATION, CERTAIN FIRE PREVENTION MEASURES AS FAR

                    AS BUILDING CODES ARE REQUIRED, EVEN IF THERE WAS NEVER A SINGLE FIRE.

                    SO THAT'S YOUR FIRST STOP FOR THIS BILL NO MATTER WHAT.  NO ONE'S GOING

                    ANYWHERE ON A MULTI-STORY BUILDING OR A FIVE-UNIT BUILDING WITHOUT

                    THEM GIVING THEIR APPROVAL BECAUSE STATE CODE NOW HAS TO BE CHANGED.

                    SO HOW DO YOU GUYS DEAL WITH STATE CODE AS FAR AS REVAMPING THE

                    ENTIRE STATE CODE TO MEET THIS REQUIREMENT?  WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE

                    BUILDING INDUSTRY OR WHO DID YOU CONSULT WITH AS FAR AS CHANGING STATE

                    CODE, BUILDING CODE?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I'VE HAD THIS BILL FOR MULTIPLE YEARS.

                    WE'RE ON AN E-PRINT WHICH IS RATHER UNUSUAL AS YOU KNOW AND HAVE MET

                    WITH ALL SORTS OF FOLKS IN TERMS OF -- WE WORK REGULARLY WITH THE

                    GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, WE HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING.  WE DID DO

                    APPOINTMENTS A FEW YEARS AGO TO THE BUILDING CODES COUNCIL.  IN FACT

                    TO -- ON OTHER ELECTRIC AND RENEWABLE ENERGY ISSUES SO NOT SURE -- NOT

                    SURE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR HERE, BUT JUST TO GO BACK TO YOUR EXAMPLE

                    OF 20 UNITS.  KEEP IN MIND OF THE 20 UNITS, IT'S ONLY IF THEY COME WITH

                    OFF-STREET PARKING OR HAVE -- HAVE SOME TYPE OF OFF-STREET PARKING.  SO

                    IN OTHER WORDS IF YOU'RE BUILDING A 20-UNIT CONDO WITH NO PARKING, IT'S

                    -- IT'S NOT RELEVANT HERE.  AND THESE ARE ALSO -- THE UNITS ARE OUTSIDE, NOT

                    INSIDE, THE 20 UNITS UNLESS THERE'S A GARAGE.  SO I GUESS I'M NOT SURE --

                    NOT SURE WHERE THE CONCERN -- WHERE YOU'RE GOING.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  A TYPICAL PROJECT WHERE THERE'S

                                         294



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INDOOR PARKING, THERE'S 20 UNITS, THEY'RE GOING TO REQUIRE A 2.5

                    CALCULATION.  THERE'LL BE 50 CAR SPACES.  WE UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY

                    SINGLE ONE WILL HAVE TO BE POWERED SINCE IT'S INDOOR.  YOU HAVE TO GO

                    TO THE FIRE MARSHAL FOR APPROVAL, WHAT SIZE SPRINKLER HEADS AT WHAT

                    CAPACITY, BUT NOW OFPC IS GOING TO HAVE TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF THE

                    FIRE SPRINKLER SYSTEM BECAUSE -- LET ME JUST BACK UP TO EXPLAIN IT IN A

                    MUCH SIMPLER WAY.  YOUR TYPICAL HOUSE.  HOW MUCH AMPERAGE IS THERE

                    IN A NEW HOME CONSTRUCTION?  THIS ONE 101 OF THIS BILL.  WHAT'S THE

                    AMPERAGE OF YOUR TYPICAL NEW HOUSE CONSTRUCTION?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I HAVE A VERY OLD HOUSE SO MINE IS -- I

                    FORGET WHAT MINE IS.  YOU KNOW, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME BECAUSE IF IT'S A

                    TRICK QUESTION.  I HAVE AN OLD HOUSE, IT'S GOT LOW AMPERAGE.  I HAVE 110

                    SO I PLUG IN AND IT TAKES A WHILE FOR MY CAR TO CHARGE.  IS IT 240?  IF IT'S

                    A TRICK QUESTION YOU CAN JUST HELP ME ANSWER IT THEN.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  MADAM SPONSOR, I APPRECIATE THAT.

                    SO THE TYPICAL NEW HOUSE CONSTRUCTION IS 200 AMPS.

                                 MS. FAHY:  OKAY.  I WAS CLOSE, 240.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  THAT'S FINE.  THE PANELS ARE A 200

                    AMP PANEL BUT THAT'S OKAY.  THE TYPICAL CHARGING STATION POWER PACK,

                    HOW MANY AMPS ARE REQUIRED FOR THAT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THE -- THE -- THE LEVEL 2 IS 240.  AGAIN

                    THE --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  HOW MANY AMPS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  OH, 20 TO 40 FOR THE ACTUAL AMPS BUT

                    AGAIN, ONLY A SMALL PERCENT ARE REQUIRED TO BE AT THE LEVEL 2 CHARGING.

                                         295



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  SO AGAIN, LET ME JUST EXPLAIN.  NO

                    MATTER WHERE THE BUILDING CODE IS IN NEW YORK STATE THEY'RE GOING TO

                    REQUIRE A 200 AMP SERVICE.  THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ALLOW ON A NEW PANEL

                    110 FEED ON A PERMANENT PANEL.  SO LET'S JUST -- WE KNOW IT'S BETWEEN

                    32 AND 40 AMPS, THAT'S JUST STATE CODE.  VERY SIMPLE.  SO IF I HAVE AN

                    AIR CONDITION -- IF I HAVE AN AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEM IN MY HOUSE, LET'S

                    SAY IT'S JUST TWO ZONES THAT HAVE A FULL DRAWN STARTUP OF 50 AMPS,

                    THERE'S 100 -- THERE'S 100 AMPS AND THEN NOW WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE

                    A GAS STOVE OR POTENTIALLY A GAS STOVE ANYMORE.  I KNOW MY OVEN IS

                    ANOTHER 50 AMPS, AND I KNOW THIS IS 40 AMPS SO MY WHOLE HOUSE IS

                    ONLY GO TO BE ABLE TO BE POWERED WITH THE REMAINING TEN AMPS OF

                    POWER LEFT, WHICH MEANS I'M GOING TO NOW HAVE TO DO 250 AMP PANELS.

                    I JUST INCREASED MY COST FOR A SINGLE HOME OF 5- TO $7,500 JUST TO

                    INCREASE THE LOAD, JUST TO IMPORT THIS PARTICULAR BILL.  IT GETS A LOT WORSE

                    THAN THAT, BECAUSE WHAT IF IT'S A --  WHAT IF THE PANEL -- THE ELECTRIC --

                    YOU SAID WE JUST HAVE TO INSTALL FOR A COUPLE HUNDRED DOLLARS THIS PANEL.

                    BUT AS MR. DURSO SAID -- ASSEMBLYMAN DURSO SAID, THERE HAS TO BE A

                    FEED FROM SOMEWHERE, THAT COMES FROM THE PANEL.  WELL, THE GARAGE IS

                    SOMETIMES ON THE OPPOSITE END OF WHERE THE PANEL IS.  WHAT SIZE WIRE

                    DO THESE PANELS REQUIRE?

                                 MS. FAHY:  IT'S -- IT'S THE TRADITIONAL WIRING.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  WELL, IT'S ACTUALLY NOT.

                                 MS. FAHY:  I MEAN IT'S THE SAME AS -- AS FAR AS WE

                    KNOW, IT'S AN ADDITIONAL PLUG.  I MEAN IT'S A VERY -- WE WOULDN'T BE

                    SEEING THIS IN SO MUCH EXISTING CONSTRUCTION IF IT WERE AS COMPLICATED

                                         296



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    -- IF IT WERE THIS COMPLICATED.  AGAIN, WE'RE SEEING THIS WITHOUT THE,

                    YOU KNOW, WITHOUT THE REQUIREMENT.  WE'RE JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE

                    OTHERS ARE DOING IT.  SO I'M NOT -- I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU'RE GOING WITH

                    THIS.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  NO, I APPRECIATE EVERYTHING YOU'RE

                    SAYING.  SO WHAT I'M STATING IS JUST FACT OF TODAY'S BUILDING CODE.  IT'S

                    NOT A MATTER OF DISCUSSION.  I'M JUST TRYING TO INFORM YOU TO ASK THE

                    QUESTION SO HOW WE CAN GET THROUGH IT.  SO THE WIRE THAT'S REQUIRED IS A

                    NUMBER 6 WIRE.  THE WIRE TO TRAVEL 200 FEET, WHICH ISN'T A BIG DISTANCE,

                    IS OVER $2,200 JUST FOR THE WIRE TO FEED FROM THE PANEL TO YOUR DEVICE

                    IN THE GARAGE.  NOW IT COULD BE THAT THE PANELS AND THE ELECTRIC PANELS

                    IN THE GARAGE AND YOU'RE FEEDING IT.  BUT NEVERTHELESS, AT THE VERY LEAST,

                    BECAUSE I KNOW I'M DOING 13 OF THEM IN THIS PARTICULAR HOME AS WE

                    SPEAK AT THIS MOMENT, EACH FEED -- NOW MIND YOU, IF YOU HAVE MULTIPLE

                    FEEDS IN AN APARTMENT BUILDING THAT MAY HAVE TEN UNITS, 15 UNITS, 20

                    UNITS, EACH ONE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE WHAT'S CALLED A HOME RUN.  YOU

                    HAVE TO GO FROM YOUR DEVICE, YOUR PLACE YOU'RE PLUGGING IN BACK TO

                    YOUR PANEL.  EACH ONE AT AN AVERAGE, AT THE VERY LEAST WILL COST YOU

                    $5,000.  SO COULD YOU IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, IF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF

                    DOLLARS OR MAYBE $50,000, OR MAYBE $20,000, IN A PARTICULAR BUILDING

                    BUT A HOMEOWNER TO HAVE TO SPEND, TO BE REQUIRED TO PUT AT THE VERY,

                    VERY LEAST 7,500 TO $20,000 DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCE SEEMS A BIT

                    UNREASONABLE.  IT'S A BIG PERCENTAGE TO SPEND ON A -- ON A -- ON A DEVICE

                    THAT AS WE KNOW THE INDUSTRY, NO ONE'S BUYING THESE ELECTRIC CARS.

                                 MS. FAHY:  MR. BROWN, IF YOU ARE BUILDING A SINGLE

                                         297



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FAMILY HOME --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  WHICH I DO EVERYDAY OF THE WEEK.

                                 MS. FAHY:  IF YOU NEED TO RUN A WIRE 200 FEET FOR A

                    SINGLE FAMILY HOME, I WOULD THINK MAYBE THOSE FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS

                    EXTRA IS PROBABLY SOMEWHAT INCONSEQUENTIAL AND MOST ARE ADDING IN

                    THE INCREASED AMPAGE [SIC] BECAUSE OF A LOT OF OTHER RELATED UPGRADES

                    THAT ARE IN NEW CONSTRUCTION.  SO THIS IS -- I THINK THIS IS ALL NEGLIGIBLE

                    WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NEW CONSTRUCTION.  YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A

                    RENOVATION THAT YOU JUST DID --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  NOT AT ALL, MADAM SPONSOR.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THIS IS A NEW CONSTRUCTION --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  I'M BUILDING A 13 CAR GARAGE, IT'S A

                    TOTALLY NEW STRUCTURE.

                                 MS. FAHY:  I SEE.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  NOW AS FAR AS NEW CONSTRUCTION

                    JUST TO REITERATE, AGAIN, IF A TYPICAL HOME HAS 200 AMPS AND 32 TO 40 IS

                    JUST THE SINGLE DEVICE, AND IF WE WERE GOING TO DO AWAY WITH GAS,

                    WHICH MEANS MY BOILER IS GOING TO PULL 20 AND MY AIR CONDITIONING IS

                    GOING TO PULL 100 AND MY OVEN IS GOING TO CONTROL 150, I HAVE NOTHING

                    LEFT TO POWER THE HOME MEANS, I HAVE TO ADD ANOTHER FULL ELECTRIC

                    SERVICE FROM THE POLE TO FEED THIS BECAUSE OF THIS ONE DEVICE WHICH IS

                    DRAWING THE 30 OR 40 AMPS THAT I WOULD USE FOR ALL OF MY LIGHTS AND MY

                    OUTLETS TYPICALLY.  SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A BIG NUMBER AND, YOU KNOW,

                    IT COULD BE 10,000, COULD BE 15,000 PER HOME.  IT'S NOT A FEW HUNDRED

                    DOLLARS.  AND AGAIN, THIS ISN'T A DEBATABLE ISSUE.  THAT'S A FACT IN THE

                                         298



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INDUSTRY, BUT IT'S A BIGGER ISSUE THAT I'M MORE CONCERNED WITH, BECAUSE

                    IF YOU DIDN'T GO TO THE OFFICE OF OFPC, IT'S A TOTAL NONSTARTER BECAUSE

                    WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS WHEN THERE'S A SUBMITTAL FOR A PLAN IN THE

                    STATE, EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T GO TO THEM, THERE'S GOING TO BE A FIRE MARSHAL

                    REVIEW AND IT'S GOING TO TRIGGER ALL OF THIS AND WE'RE JUST GOING TO BE

                    BACK HERE NEXT YEAR KIND OF REDOING THIS WHOLE BILL.  SO LET'S WORK

                    TOGETHER TO SEE HOW WE CAN FIGURE OUT TO ACTUALLY MAKE IT FEASIBLE AND

                    WORK, BECAUSE IT'S A TOTAL NONSTARTER.

                                 MS. FAHY:  GOVERNOR'S OFFICE -- JUST TO BE CLEAR,

                    GOVERNOR'S OFFICE HAS HAD THIS BILL FOR MULTIPLE YEARS, I FORGET HOW

                    LONG I'VE HAD IT, VARIATIONS OF IT.  WE CONSULT WITH THEM EVERYDAY ON A

                    WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES.  SO IT IS THE FIRST TIME HEARING THAT SOMEHOW THIS

                    LEGISLATION WOULD BE TRIPPED UP BASED ON -- BASED ON ONE OFFICE.  AND I

                    ALSO -- YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING HOMEOWNERS DO THIS WITH EXISTING

                    CONSTRUCTION.  SO, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE THAT YOU'VE RUN INTO SOME

                    PROBLEMS ON A -- ON A NEW GARAGE, BUT AGAIN, PART OF -- THAT IS PART OF

                    WHY WE HAVE SO MANY INCENTIVES TO DO THAT, THAT'S WHY IT'S CHEAPER TO

                    DO IT AT THE BEGINNING AND WE ARE SEEING -- WE'RE NOT SEEING QUITE THAT

                    KIND OF BACKLASH OTHERWISE WE --

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  THANK YOU, MADAM SPEAKER.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL PLEASE.

                                 MS. FAHY:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER MAGNARELLI:  ON THE BILL.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  WHILE I APPRECIATE THE -- THE

                    SPONSOR'S COMMENTS, I KIND OF THINK OF MR. ZEBROWSKI'S DISCUSSION ON

                                         299



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    WHY LAWYERS SHOULD BE JUDGES.  YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN SWINGING A

                    HAMMER FOR FIVE DECADES.  I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS

                    INDUSTRY.  THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE I HAVE A VERY BIG UNDERSTANDING.  THE

                    PROBLEM WITH THIS IS IT'S IRREFUTABLE.  PER HOME YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND A

                    MINIMUM OF 7,500, 10,000, 15,000, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE

                    CIRCUMSTANCE IS.  MAYBE NOT SO BAD ON A NEW CONSTRUCTION IF YOU'RE

                    SPENDING A HALF-A-MILLION DOLLARS, $1 MILLION OR $200,000.  BUT WHEN

                    YOU HAVE A MULTI-FAMILY BUILDING UNIT, THIS ESCALATES INTO FIRE CODE

                    ISSUES THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS TOTALLY PROHIBITABLE EVEN IF IT'S

                    ALLOWED BY INSURANCE COMPANIES TODAY, WHICH ARE FINDING DIFFICULTY TO

                    GIVE -- TO GIVE POLICIES TO BECAUSE OF THE EXTREME ISSUES OF OVERLOAD ON

                    ELECTRICAL PANELS AND POTENTIAL COMBUSTIBILITY ISSUES AS ASSEMBLYMAN

                    PALMESANO HAD MENTIONED.  I THINK THIS NEEDS A LOT MORE STUDY.  WE

                    SHOULDN'T RELY ON, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE WHO WENT TO SCHOOL FOR AN EXTRA

                    THREE YEARS IN LAW SCHOOL TO UNDERSTAND THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY.  SO

                    FOR THAT REASON I'LL BE VOTING IN THE NEGATIVE.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER MAGNARELLI:  MR. BROWN IN

                    THE NEGATIVE.

                                 MS. GIGLIO.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER MAGNARELLI:  WILL YOU

                    YIELD, MS. FAHY?

                                 MS. FAHY:  CERTAINLY.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU.  SO CAN YOU PLEASE GO

                                         300



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THROUGH THE EXEMPTIONS AGAIN?  LIKE, SO ALL AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS

                    THAT WILL BE BUILT IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK WILL BE EXEMPT FROM HAVING

                    THESE ELECTRIC CHARGES.  AM I CLEAR IN THAT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  YES.  WHERE THEY -- WHERE THEY SEEK

                    THAT, YES.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  OKAY.  AND WHAT IF THERE WAS A

                    MIXED-USE BUILDING WHERE IT'S 40 PERCENT OF THE MEDIAN INCOME, 60

                    PERCENT OF THE MEDIAN INCOME, 80, 100 AND 120.  IF IT'S MIXED, SO IT HAS

                    AFFORDABLE AND IT HAS MARKET RATE.  THEY WILL STILL -- THAT WHOLE BUILDING

                    WOULD BE EXEMPT?

                                 MS. FAHY:  THAT HAS TO BE TIED TO AN AGREEMENT AND

                    IT -- BUT IT DOES HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TO APPLY AND IT HAS TO BE

                    TIED TO AN AGREEMENT.  AGAIN, WE JUST VISITED ONE RIGHT HERE IN ALBANY.

                    IT'S ALL AFFORDABLE, IT'S ALL PUBLIC HOUSING AND IT'S ALL-ELECTRIC AND IT'S

                    ACTUALLY GOING TO SAVE THE HOMEOWNERS A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF MONEY

                    ON THEIR HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING BECAUSE OF THOSE INVESTMENTS THAT

                    WERE MADE.  SO IT MAY HAVE BEEN SOME UPFRONT COSTS BUT IT'S ACTUALLY

                    GOING TO BE A MASSIVE SAVINGS ON THE -- ON THE OUTSIDE.  SO WE -- WE

                    STILL WILL BE ABLE TO STILL DO IT, BUT SINCE WE HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED SO

                    MUCH ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN OUR BUDGET WE LEFT IT OUT OF THIS.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  SO YOU JUST STATED THAT BECAUSE THIS

                    AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT, THEY ARE GOING TO BE SAVING A LOT OF MONEY

                    BECAUSE IT DOES HAVE ALL OF THIS, THE BELLS AND WHISTLES IN IT THAT WOULD

                    PROVIDE FOR THIS ELECTRIC SERVICE AND EVERYTHING TO BE ELECTRIC IN THE

                    BUILDING, CORRECT?

                                         301



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  IN THE ONE I MENTIONED, YES.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  YES.  SO WHY WOULD WE WANT TO

                    RESTRICT PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT FROM

                    HAVING AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IN THE BUILDING THAT THEY LIVE IN?  WHY

                    WOULD WE WANT TO TELL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AFFORDABLE

                    HOUSING, SORRY YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, THERE'S NO WHERE FOR

                    YOU TO PLUG IN.

                                 MS. FAHY:  WE'RE -- WE'RE DEFINITELY NOT TELLING

                    THEM THEY CAN'T.  WE ARE ASSUMING -- WE ARE ASSUMING WE WILL STILL SEE

                    A LOT OF THIS, WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE JUST NOT ADDING IT IN AT THIS TIME

                    (INAUDIBLE) BECAUSE WE JUST ADDRESSED ALL OF THAT DURING THE BUDGET, BUT

                    WE'RE NOT PRECLUDING IT.  AND AGAIN, THAT'S ONLY IF IT'S TIED TO AN

                    AGREEMENT.  SO THERE HAS TO BE AN AGREEMENT AT THE LOCAL, STATE OR

                    COUNTY LEVEL AS THESE ARE -- AS WE ARE DEVELOPING NEW OR GROWING NEW

                    AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  SO IS IT THE STATE'S GOAL THAT EVERYBODY

                    IN NEW YORK STATE SHOULD DRIVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE?

                                 MS. FAHY:  ABSOLUTELY NOT.  I WOULD HOPE MOST

                    PEOPLE -- YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO -- WE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS

                    BUDGET TO ENCOURAGE MORE MASS TRANSIT, PEDESTRIAN AND BIKE.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  IF YOU'RE NOT ON MASS TRANSIT AND YOU'RE

                    DRIVING A VEHICLE, IS IT THE STATE'S GOAL TO GET EVERYBODY OFF OF, YOU

                    KNOW, FOSSIL FUEL VEHICLES AND MOVE TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I THINK WE HAD THAT AS ONE OF OUR GOALS

                    TO -- BY 2035 OF THE NEW SALES OF NEW VEHICLES.  AGAIN, THAT TOO IS

                                         302



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    FOCUSED ON NEW VEHICLES, I THINK IN 2035.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  SO WE --

                                 MS. FAHY:  IF THAT'S -- IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING

                    TO.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  SO THE LEGISLATURE ADOPTED THE GREEN

                    LIGHT LAW MANY YEARS AGO IN 2019, I WASN'T HERE YET, BUT BECAUSE THEY

                    WERE SAYING PEOPLE THAT WERE HAVING A HARD TIME GETTING TO AND FROM

                    WORK BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE DRIVER'S LICENSES SO WE GAVE THEM

                    DRIVER'S LICENSES BUT NOW WE'RE TELLING THOSE PEOPLE IF THEY LIVE IN A

                    BRAND NEW BUILDING - AND I'M JUST GOING TO BE IN THE FOREFRONT HERE -

                    THERE ARE 2,400 AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS IN THE TOWN ADJOINING MY

                    TOWN AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S GREAT.  I THINK EVERYBODY NEEDS A PLACE TO

                    LIVE, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ALL THOSE 2,400 PEOPLE I'M SORRY, WE DON'T

                    HAVE AN EV CONNECTION FOR YOU.  AND IF THE BUILDERS, YOU'RE SAYING IT

                    DOESN'T PRECLUDE THEM FROM DOING IT, BUT WHY WOULD THEY?  WHY WOULD

                    THEY?  ARE THE TAXES BREAK GOING TO GO FROM WHAT IS NORMALLY A

                    TEN-YEAR TAX BREAK, TO A 20-YEAR TAX BREAK, A 30-YEAR TAX BREAK, A 40

                    YEAR TAX BREAK?  I MEAN THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT WE HEARD WHEN WE WERE

                    TALKING ABOUT THE AFFORDABLE UNITS IN NEW YORK CITY, AND I'M JUST

                    SAYING I THINK THAT IT'S -- IT'S UNFATHOMABLE TO ME THAT WE WOULD

                    SUBSIDIZE AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS IN NEW YORK STATE AND NOT LET THESE

                    PEOPLE HAVE A CONNECTION FOR AN ELECTRIC CAR, WHICH -- WHICH THE CAR

                    DEALERS CAN'T GET RID OF THEM.  SOMEONE IN THIS CHAMBER TOLD ME THEY

                    BOUGHT AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE FOR 55,000.  NOW BRAND-NEW IT'S 35,000.  SO

                    WHERE EV VEHICLES ARE BECOMING MORE AFFORDABLE BECAUSE THE DEALERS

                                         303



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CAN'T GET RID OF THEM AND YOU SAY IT'S BECAUSE THERE ARE NO EV

                    CONNECTIONS, WHY WOULDN'T WE REQUIRE AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO DO THESE

                    EV CONNECTIONS?

                                 MS. FAHY:  I APPRECIATE YOUR CONCERN FOR THOSE WHO

                    ARE LIVING IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING, BUT THIS IS -- AGAIN, WE ARE ALREADY

                    SEEING THIS ON ITS OWN AND GROW ON ITS OWN AND WE'RE SEEING THESE

                    CHANGES AND I THINK THE 2,400 PEOPLE YOU JUST REFERRED TO ALREADY HAVE

                    A PLACE.  THIS IS AGAIN, NEW CONSTRUCTION --

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THIS IS NEW CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MS. FAHY: -- AND WE'RE SEEING -- BUT WE ARE SEEING

                    THE GROWTH OF THIS.  YES, THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS HOLDING UP THE INDUSTRY,

                    HENCE THE REASON WE WANT TO START WITH AT LEAST NEW CONSTRUCTION AND

                    ADDING IN THESE REQUIREMENTS.  WE JUST SPENT YEARS, FIVE YEARS, IN MY

                    CALCULATIONS SINCE 2019, FIGURING OUT A HOUSING PACKAGE HERE.  THAT

                    WAS DONE FOR THE SAME REASON WERE NOT DOING A LOT OF BILLS THAT WERE

                    ALREADY ADDRESSED IN THE BUDGET.  AFFORDABLE HOUSING WAS ADDRESSED IN

                    THE BUDGET.  WE EXEMPTED IT HERE.  I WOULD HOPE AT SOME POINT WE'RE

                    GOING TO GO BACK, BUT AGAIN, REMEMBER, THIS IS STILL TIED TO AN

                    AGREEMENT SO THAT DOESN'T PRECLUDE ANY NEW CONSTRUCTION ON AFFORDABLE

                    HOUSING FROM STILL GOING AHEAD AND DOING IT, AND I ANTICIPATE THEY WILL

                    JUST AS WE DID JUST RIGHT DOWN THE STREET WITH STEAMBOAT SQUARE, WHICH

                    WAS JUST NEWLY -- AND THAT WAS JUST A RENOVATION, THAT WAS NOT NEW

                    CONSTRUCTION.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  SO WHO IS GOING TO BE NEGOTIATING

                    THESE AGREEMENTS FOR THESE AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS?

                                         304



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. FAHY:  THIS IS SUBJECT TO AN -- AN AGREEMENT

                    WITH LOCAL, STATE ENTITIES.  YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- I ASSUME WHOEVER THE

                    LOCAL BUILDING CODE -- WHEN YOU'RE DOING AFFORDABLE HOUSING THERE'S

                    MULTIPLE AGENCIES INVOLVED.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  YEAH, BUT -- BUT THERE'S ALSO AN

                    AGREEMENT WITH THE STATE BECAUSE THE STATE IS FUNDING THESE PROJECTS SO

                    --

                                 MS. FAHY:  AS ARE -- AS ARE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, AS IS

                    -- YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE DOING AFFORDABLE HOUSING I UNDERSTAND JUST

                    THE ONE I SAW A FEW MONTHS AGO HERE WITH STEAMBOAT SQUARE, THERE

                    WERE TEN DIFFERENT GRANTS INVOLVED.  SO THEY'RE WORKING WITH MULTIPLE

                    AGENCIES.  AND REMEMBER, AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS ONE THING, WE ALSO FOR

                    NEW CONSTRUCTION FOR JUST AS I -- I GOT A TAX CREDIT WHEN I BOUGHT MY

                    EV PLUG-IN HYBRID.  WE HAVE TAX CREDITS ON INSTALLATION OF PLUGS, AND I

                    CERTAINLY DON'T INCOME QUALIFY, BUT THERE ARE INSENSITIVES FOR ALL OF THIS

                    SO IT'S NOT AS IF WE'RE USING TAXPAYER DOLLARS ON A LOT OF THESE THINGS TO

                    INCENTIVIZE -- TO INCENTIVIZE THE GROWTH OF EVS.  AGAIN, THERE'S A --

                    THERE'S A MUCH BIGGER PURPOSE HERE.  THEY RUN CLEANER, THEY'RE

                    HEALTHIER AND IT IS BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  OKAY.  I JUST DON'T KNOW WHY WE

                    WOULD RESTRICT PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT

                    AND TELLING THEM I'M SORRY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO THE GAS STATION

                    DOWN THE ROAD IF YOU OWN A CAR, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY MORE

                    FOR GAS THAN YOU WOULD PAY FOR ELECTRIC.  I JUST -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

                    I MEAN THE STATE SUBSIDIZES THESE AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS.  I DON'T

                                         305



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    UNDERSTAND WHY YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT A REQUIREMENT THAT IN THOSE

                    SUBSIDIES THEY PUT THESE EV CHARGING STATIONS.  ESPECIALLY WITH OTHER

                    BILLS THAT WE HAVE THAT REQUIRE PARKING GARAGES TO BE OPEN FOR ANYBODY

                    TO BE ABLE TO GO IN AND CHARGE THEIR EVS SO --

                                 MS. FAHY:  I THINK THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD BILL IDEA

                    AND I'M SURE WE'LL SEE THAT AS WE CONTINUE TO GROW.  WE'RE GROWING THIS

                    ENTIRE INDUSTRY JUST AS WE'VE SEEN LOTS OF EFFORTS ON INCENTIVIZING EV

                    INFRASTRUCTURE.  SO I, AGAIN, THIS WAS A START.  IT'S A START WITH NEW

                    CONSTRUCTION, IT DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE MAJOR RENOVATIONS.  THE -- THE

                    STEAMBOAT SQUARE I JUST MENTIONED WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN SUBJECT

                    TO THESE REQUIREMENTS BECAUSE IT WASN'T NEW CONSTRUCTION.  IT WAS A GUT

                    RENOVATION BUT IT WASN'T NEW CONSTRUCTION.  SO WE'RE TRYING TO START

                    SOMEWHERE.  YOU'RE GIVING ME LOTS OF IDEAS FOR FUTURE BILLS.  BUT WE --

                    WE'VE GOT TO START SOMEWHERE AS WE INCENTIVIZE THIS INDUSTRY AND I

                    THINK THAT'S -- WE'RE EVEN WITHOUT THESE REQUIREMENTS IN PLACE, WE ARE

                    SEEING IT DRAMATICALLY JUST AS WE'VE SEEN IT IN -- IN OUR BUILDINGS HERE

                    AND WE'RE SEEING IT AT GROCERY STORES.  WE'RE SEEING -- WE'RE SEEING EV

                    INFRASTRUCTURE GOING IN IN MOST COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES AS WELL.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  YUP.  THERE USED TO BE BETTER

                    INCENTIVES FOR IT.  BUT THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR --

                                 MS. FAHY:  THERE'S MORE COMING AS WE KNOW.

                    THANK YOU.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL

                    ANSWERS, THANK YOU.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL.

                                         306



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, MA'AM.

                                 MS. GIGLIO:  WHERE WE'RE A STATE THAT IS TRYING TO

                    GET EVERYBODY TO, YOU KNOW, SWITCH, MAKE THE ALTERNATIVE TO ELECTRIC.  I

                    JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW, YOU KNOW, THE STATE IS INVESTIGATING SO

                    MUCH MONEY IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS AND YET YOU'RE TELLING THEM

                    THEY CAN'T DRIVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, BECAUSE THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT THAT

                    ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS BE PUT IN THESE AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS AND

                    THESE BUILDINGS, AND THEY ARE PRETTY INEXPENSIVE NOW, BECAUSE LIKE I

                    SAID THE DEALERS CAN'T GET THEM OFF THE LOTS.  YOU CAN LEASE AN ELECTRIC

                    VEHICLE FOR $100 A MONTH, BUT YET WE'RE GOING TO TELL THESE PEOPLE

                    SORRY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE GAS STATION DOWN THE ROAD, AND AS OUR LAWS

                    BECOME MORE STRICT ON OWNERS OF GAS STATIONS AND ON THE USE OF FOSSIL

                    FUELS, GAS PRICES ARE GOING TO KEEP GOING UP.  IT HAPPENED IN CALIFORNIA

                    AND IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE, TOO, AND THAT'LL BE THE FORCE OF THE

                    GOVERNMENT'S HAND TO MAKE EVERYBODY SWITCH TO AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IS

                    BY MAKING PRICES SO UNAFFORDABLE THAT YOU HAVE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE

                    BUT TO GO TO WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO.  AND FOR THOSE REASONS I JUST

                    CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE WOULD ELIMINATE PEOPLE THAT ARE ELIGIBLE FOR

                    AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT AND NOT ALLOW THEM TO HAVE AN ELECTRIC CAR.

                    THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. EACHUS.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ON THE BILL.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. EACHUS:  SIR, MY COLLEAGUES JUST SCARED THE

                                         307



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HELL OUT OF ME.  TWO-AND-A-HALF WEEKS AGO I BOUGHT A CHEVY BOLT.

                    THAT IS A GMC CAR FROM A CHEVY DEALER, AND I WAS NEVER TOLD TO PUT A

                    CHARGING STATION 50 FEET AWAY.  AS A MATTER OF FACT, I CONTRACTED WITH A

                    CONTRACTOR THROUGH THE GMC DEALER TO HAVE A CHARGER PUT IN MY

                    GARAGE.  WOW, I HOPE I GET MY HANDS ON THIS STUFF SO I CAN GO BACK, I

                    GUESS, AND SUE THIS CHEVY DEALER FROM THE INFORMATION I WAS GIVEN

                    TODAY.

                                 AND I'M LISTENING ABOUT THE BUILDING.  I HAVE A 200

                    AMP SERVICE TO MY HOUSE, I HAVE WHOLE-HOUSE AIR CONDITIONING.  I

                    WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHAT A 100 AMP AIR CONDITIONER DOES BECAUSE MY

                    WHOLE-HOUSE AIR CONDITIONER IS ONLY 40 AMPS.  AND I WAS THINKING

                    ABOUT, WAIT A MINUTE, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT 32 TO 40 AMPS FOR A

                    CHARGER?  OH, THAT'S A TYPE 2 CHARGER, WHAT IS COMMONLY KNOWN AS A

                    FAST CHARGER.  YOU KNOW WHAT A TYPE 1 CHARGER IS?  IT WAS MENTIONED

                    BY THE SPONSOR, A 110- TO 120-PLUG AT 20 AMPS.  AND AS FAR AS THE

                    WHOLE BUSINESS WITH AFFORDABLE HOUSING, WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT TELLING

                    ANYBODY IN THE FUTURE YOU CAN'T PUT IN THESE OUTLETS IF YOU WANT.

                                 SO I -- I -- I'M JUST, LIKE I SAID, I WAS SCARED AND I JUST

                    DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS INFORMATION THAT'S BEING FED OUT HERE ON THE -- ON

                    THE FLOOR.  AND, YOU KNOW, ALL I CAN SAY IS I'M HAVING THE EXPERIENCE,

                    THE TRUE EXPERIENCE, WITH THE NEW CHEVY BOLT AND I HOPE I GET

                    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FROM MY COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE.

                                 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                         308



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT APRIL 1ST,

                    2025.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION.  THOSE WHO

                    SUPPORT IT CAN CERTAINLY VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF

                    THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW THAT WOULD

                    DECIDE TO BE AN EXCEPTION.  THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO VOTE AT THEIR SEATS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, BOTH.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. DURSO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. DURSO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO EXPLAIN

                    MY VOTE.  SO AGAIN, I WANT TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR TAKING THE

                    QUESTIONS.  BUT AGAIN, I -- I THINK I HAVE TWO REAL ISSUES WITH THIS BILL.

                    ONE IS THE CONSISTENCY LEVEL.  AGAIN, WE'RE ASKING HOMEOWNERS AND

                    REQUIRING HOMEOWNERS THAT BUILD NEW HOMES, THAT THEY'RE REQUIRED TO

                    HAVE THIS WIRING DONE AND CHARGERS PUT IN, BUT WE'RE NOT REQUIRING

                    COMPANIES AND BUILDERS THAT ARE GOING TO BE BUILDING MULTI-UNIT

                    DWELLINGS AND MULTI-UNIT APARTMENT BUILDINGS TO DO IT IF THEY CHOOSE

                                         309



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NOT TO.  AGAIN, IT'S A CONSISTENCY ISSUE, AND LIKE ANYBODY ELSE, AGAIN, LET

                    THE MARKET BEAR IT AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WANT

                    TO DO.  WE DON'T NEED TO MANDATE THAT RESIDENTS AND PEOPLE THROUGHOUT

                    NEW YORK STATE HAVE TO PUT THESE IN IF THEY DON'T CHOOSE TO.

                                 THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. DURSO IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. TAGUE TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. TAGUE:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I JUST FIND IT

                    UNBELIEVABLE THAT HALF, OR EVEN MAYBE MORE THAN HALF OF THE PEOPLE IN

                    THIS HOUSE THAT ARE SUPPORTING THIS BILL DON'T EVEN OWN A HOUSE, AND

                    YOU'RE MAKING DECISIONS FOR PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN MY RURAL AREA THAT HAVE

                    TO BUY A HOUSE, MANDATING SOMETHING THAT'S UNAFFORDABLE.  THE WORST

                    THING WITH NEW YORK STATE, TAKE POLITICS AWAY, WE'RE THE MOST

                    UNAFFORDABLE STATE IN THE COUNTRY AND NOW WE'RE MANDATING MORE

                    UNAFFORDABILITY ONTO OUR RESIDENTS.  THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS.  IF PEOPLE

                    WANT TO DO THIS, LET THEM DO IT.  LET'S NOT MANDATE THEM.  PEOPLE NEED

                    TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.  ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.  AND THEN

                    YOU WONDER WHY PEOPLE ARE FED UP?  RIGHT HERE'S THE REASON.  DON'T

                    TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO WITH MY NEW HOUSE, I'M FOOTING THE BILL, NOT

                    YOU.

                                 I VOTE NO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. TAGUE IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. JACOBSON.

                                         310



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. JACOBSON:  TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE, MR. SPEAKER.

                    I'M VERY HAPPY THAT WE HAVE THIS BILL.  THE REASON THERE AREN'T MORE

                    ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEING SOLD IS BECAUSE THERE'S LESS CHARGING STATIONS.

                    BUT I'M REALLY HAPPY THAT THE REPUBLIC -- SOME REPUBLICANS SAY THIS

                    BILL DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH, WE SHOULD HAVE THIS MANDATE ON MORE TYPES

                    OF HOUSING.  SO MAYBE NEXT YEAR IF -- IF THE SPONSOR SPONSORS A NEW BILL

                    IN THE SENATE, MAYBE I'LL HAVE IT IN THIS ASSEMBLY AND MAYBE YOU'LL

                    COSPONSOR IT.  IF IT ONLY COSTS THEM, WHAT, $10,000, WHEN YOU'RE

                    BUILDING IT NEW TO GET A -- TO GET A CHARGING STATION, THAT'D BE GREAT.

                    AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT IT WILL INCREASE THE VALUE OF THE HOUSE, WHICH

                    MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.  THE ONLY WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET OFF THE

                    FOSSIL FUELS IS TO HAVE MORE CHARGING STATIONS SO PEOPLE CAN USE IT.  I

                    HOPE THE THRUWAY STARTS PUTTING MORE OF THEM ON IN THE -- IN THE REST

                    AREAS.  I HOPE THAT WE HAVE THEM THROUGHOUT.

                                 SO I'M VERY GLAD TO VOTE FOR THIS BILL AND I COMMEND

                    THE SPONSOR FOR GETTING IT ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. JACOBSON IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. PALMESANO.

                                 MR. PALMESANO:  YES, MR. SPEAKER, BRIEFLY TO

                    EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  ON THE GM WEBPAGE, ITEM NUMBER THREE SAYS, PARK

                    YOUR VEHICLE OUTSIDE IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHARGING AND DO NOT LEAVE YOUR

                    VEHICLE CHARGING INDOORS OVERNIGHT.  IN ADDITION, THERE IS -- THERE IS

                    ANOTHER STORY, GM TELLS BOLT OWNERS TO PARK 50 FEET AWAY FROM OTHER

                    CARS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO RISK -- AVOID RISKING A SPONTANEOUS FIRE AND

                                         311



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SPREAD.

                                 SO I VOTE NO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. PALMESANO IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  YOU

                    KNOW, I'M NOT ANTI-EV GUY, I DO CARE ABOUT KIDS IN -- IN CONGO, I --

                    YES.  I'M A VERY COMMONSENSE PERSON.  THE -- THE ONLY -- AND PROBABLY

                    IT'S A GOOD BILL, I DON'T KNOW.  THE ONLY REASON, MR. SPEAKER, I'M NOT

                    VOTING YES ON THIS BILL IS BECAUSE IT SHOULD BE AN INITIATIVE.  IT SHOULD

                    BE AN INITIATIVE LIKE A TAX BREAK.  WE -- WE SHOULD CREATE A MORE

                    FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT FOR THE BUILDERS TO INITIATE, YOU KNOW, NOT REQUIRE

                    THEM DOING SOMETHING.

                                 BUT, YOU KNOW, THE -- I WAS LISTENING TO -- TO THIS LONG

                    DEBATE, AND I'LL TRY TO MAKE IT VERY BRIEF.  IT'S INTERESTING THAT, YOU

                    KNOW, THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL AND -- AND THE TEAM CONSISTING OF

                    ECONOMISTS, ATTORNEYS AND RESEARCHERS, THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH IS

                    IT TO RUN AN ELECTRIC WIRE FROM THE BASEMENT OF THE GARAGE TO THE, I DON'T

                    KNOW, 10TH FLOOR, 20TH FLOOR, 30TH FLOOR, ET CETERA.  THEY MENTIONED IT'S

                    A FEW HUNDREDS DOLLARS; IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS, IT'S

                    THOUSANDS, IT'S TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF ELECTRICAL WORK TO RUN THE

                    WIRE.  SO I'M -- I'M SURPRISED THAT, YOU KNOW, SUCH A PROFESSIONAL TEAM

                    OF RESEARCHERS DOESN'T KNOW THE PRICE, YOU KNOW, IN WORKING ON THIS

                    BILL FOR SO MANY YEARS, DOESN'T KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES, THE FINANCIAL

                    CONSEQUENCES FOR THE BUILDERS.  I'M -- I'M REALLY SURPRISED THEY DON'T

                                         312



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    KNOW ABOUT IT.  SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE NEED TO -- TO DO MORE

                    RESEARCH BEFORE WORKING ON SUCH LEGISLATION.

                                 AND, YOU KNOW, FOR THESE REASONS, I'M --

                    UNFORTUNATELY, I'M IN THE NEGATIVE.  I HOPE THIS BILL WILL BRING A LOT OF

                    GOOD -- GOOD STUFF TO OUR CONSTITUENTS.  THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR.

                    SPEAKER; THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. NOVAKHOV IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MS. LEVENBERG.

                                 MS. LEVENBERG:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, I RISE

                    TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  I AM AMAZED AT HOW LONG IT ACTUALLY TAKES US TO

                    PASS ANY LEGISLATION WHATSOEVER THAT ACTUALLY WILL IMPROVE OUR

                    ENVIRONMENT.  AND WHILE WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE EXPENSES RELATED TO

                    CONVERTING OUR INFRASTRUCTURE OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS, WE ALSO KNOW THERE ARE

                    MUCH, MUCH GREATER EXPENSES TO CONTINUING TO GO FORWARD WITH OUR

                    INFRASTRUCTURE AS IS.  SO I'M HOPEFUL THAT WE'RE GOING TO MAKE MUCH

                    LARGER CHANGES THAN THESE.  I THINK THAT THIS IS A GREAT BILL AND I'M VERY

                    GRATEFUL TO THE SPONSOR FOR HAVING PUT IT FORTH AND WORKING SO HARD TO

                    GET IT PASSED FOR SO MANY YEARS.  I DO HAVE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, I HAVE

                    UPGRADED THE ELECTRIC ON MY SINGLE-FAMILY HOME, AND I DO KNOW WHAT

                    THE EXPENSES ARE AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WORK INVOLVED WAS, AND IT

                    WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN A LOT LESS EXPENSIVE TO DO THAT KIND OF WORK

                    ON NEW CONSTRUCTION THAN HAVING TO CONVERT MY 1920 HOME AND -- AND

                    OUTSIDE SO THAT I COULD -- I COULD CHARGE MY ELECTRIC VEHICLE IN MY

                    GARAGE.  AND WHILE THERE POSSIBLY COULD BE RISKS INVOLVED, AND I'M NOT

                                         313



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SAYING THERE ARE OR THERE AREN'T BECAUSE I HAVEN'T HAD ANY BAD --

                    ANYTHING BAD HAPPEN YET TO ME, I DO BELIEVE THAT ULTIMATELY SOME OF

                    THESE PROBLEMS WILL BE ADDRESSED BY THE MANUFACTURES AND THAT WE

                    NEED TO BE READY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN CHARGE OUR ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

                    WE HEAR ALL THE TIME THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO

                    SUPPORT ELECTRIC VEHICLES, YET, HERE WE ARE HEARING FROM OUR COLLEAGUES

                    ACROSS THE AISLE THAT WE SHOULDN'T ACTUALLY REQUIRE THE ELECTRIC

                    INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE NEED SO THAT WE CAN HAVE THE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

                                 SO WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THIS, WE'RE WAY BEHIND.  I

                    AM PROUD TO VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. LEVENBERG IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. FRIEND TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. FRIEND:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, FOR ALLOWING

                    ME TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  THE FACT THAT WE'RE THROWING AROUND $3,000,

                    $10,000 AND SAYING THAT'S MEANINGLESS, NOT IN MY DISTRICT, NOT TO ME.

                    THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY.  IN MY DISTRICT YOU HAVE FAMILIES, SENIOR

                    CITIZENS, MAYBE LOOKING TO DOWNSIZE, MOVE INTO A NEW HOME.  THAT'S A

                    LOT OF MONEY TO SAY, YOU HAVE TO PUT THIS IN, AND THEY MIGHT NOT EVEN

                    OWN OR WANT TO OWN AN ELECTRIC CAR.  AND THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT?

                    WHY?  WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO BUILD THAT INTO THEIR NEW HOME WHEN

                    THEY DON'T EVEN WANT IT OR OWN IT?  IT'S ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

                                 ANYBODY THAT WANTS IT, GREAT, GO AHEAD AND DO IT.  BUT

                    DON'T KID YOURSELF BY SAYING IT'S CLEAN; IT IS NOT CLEAN TECHNOLOGY.  IN

                    NEW YORK STATE, FOSSIL FUEL AND GAS-BURNING CARS ARE CLEANER THAN

                                         314



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CLEAN TECHNOLOGY CARS.  ALL THE REPORTS SHOW THAT, BECAUSE THE CARS ARE

                    HEAVIER.  WHEN THEY'RE CLEAN, ELECTRIC VEHICLE CARS, THEY CAUSE THE

                    WHEELS TO BURN OUT FASTER, THEY CAUSE THE BRAKES TO BURN OUT FASTER,

                    KICKING OFF ALL THAT POLLUTANT, DUST, AND CARCINOGEN INTO THOSE

                    COMMUNITIES.  YES, THEY'RE QUIET, AND THAT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING THEY

                    TRIED TO WORK INTO THE CARS SO YOU DON'T -- YOU DON'T HAVE ACCIDENTS THAT

                    YOU'RE ACTUALLY GONNA -- ACTUALLY OVERRUN SOMEBODY WHEN YOU'RE

                    BACKING UP.  SO CONVENIENCES ABOUND IN ALL SORTS OF AREAS.  THIS SHOULD

                    BE A CHOICE WHEN YOU BUILD A NEW HOME.

                                 I FIND IT IRONIC THAT THIS BILL GOES INTO EFFECT APRIL 1ST,

                    2025, APRIL FOOL'S DAY.  WHO IS THAT, THE LEGISLATURE OR THE PEOPLE

                    WHO ARE TRYING TO SAY THIS IS A CLEAN TECHNOLOGY?  I VOTE NEGATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. FRIEND IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 MR. STECK TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. STECK:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  HAVING GONE

                    THROUGH THE PROCESS OF MAKING A 1958-CONSTRUCTED HOME SUITABLE FOR

                    ELECTRIC VEHICLES, IT WAS NOT VERY COSTLY TO RUN A 50 AMP WIRE FROM THE

                    SERVICE IN THE BASEMENT TO THE GARAGE AND REPLACE THE EXISTING OUTLET

                    THERE.  NOWADAYS, THE -- MANY OF THE CAR DEALERS ARE GIVING AWAY THE

                    LEVEL 2 CHARGING STATION THAT YOU CAN PUT IN YOUR GARAGE AND, IN FACT, IT

                    PAYS FOR ITSELF QUITE EASILY BECAUSE THE COST OF FUELING AND MAINTAINING

                    AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IS ABOUT ONE-QUARTER THE COST OF A COMPARABLE GAS

                    VEHICLE.  I DRIVE A VOLKSWAGEN ID.4.  THAT'S NOT A SMALL CAR AT ALL, IT --

                    IT COMPARES FAVORABLY WITH A LOT OF THE CROSSOVER VEHICLES THAT PEOPLE

                                         315



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REALLY LOVE TO DRIVE.

                                 THIS IS A LOT OF NOTHING, I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. STECK IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MS. SIMON.

                                 MS. SIMON:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I THINK

                    EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY POSSIBLE TO

                    CREATE THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD

                    INTO THE -- THE -- FURTHER INTO THE 21ST CENTURY, AND THIS IS SUCH AN

                    OPPORTUNITY.  IF YOU ARE BUILDING A NEW HOUSE, IT'S NOT COSTING THAT

                    MUCH MORE TO PUT IN AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING.  WE KNOW THAT.  IF

                    YOU'RE DOING MULTI-FAMILY HOUSING, IT'S NOT GONNA COST THAT MUCH MORE.

                    THE TIME TO DO IT IS IN THE BEGINNING, IT'S ALWAYS MORE EXPENSIVE TO

                    RETROFIT.  NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT WHEN YOU'RE STARTING A NEW HOME,

                    WHEN YOU'RE STARTING A NEW BUILDING.  THIS IS THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY.

                                 SO I WANT TO COMMEND THE SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION

                    AND I WILL BE VOTING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. SIMON IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 MR. DIPIETRO TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. DIPIETRO:  TO EXPLAIN MY VOTE, THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  I APPRECIATE IT.  THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU HAVE ONE-RULE

                    GOVERNMENT IN THE STATE.  I FIND IT IRONIC THAT OUR MAJORITY SITS THERE

                    AND MOCKS US OUT FOR BEING OPPOSED TO THIS.  I DON'T TAKE IT VERY LIGHTLY.

                    A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE IN ELECTRIC CARS, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T

                                         316



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BELIEVE IN THIS ELECTRIFICATION, ESPECIALLY THE UTILITY COMPANIES WHO

                    SAID WE CAN'T GET TO ELECTRIFICATION.  IN 20 TO 30 YEARS WE CAN'T MEET THE

                    GOAL, THE STANDARDS THAT THEY'VE PUT.  PEOPLE ARE NOT BUYING ELECTRIC

                    CARS.  IF YOU JUST SAW THE REPORTS FROM GM AND FORD, THEY'RE GOING

                    DOWN THE TUBES, NO ONE'S BUYING THEM.  AND IF THEY AREN'T SUBSIDIZED,

                    THEY FAIL, JUST LIKE WIND AND SOLAR.  IF THEY'RE NOT SUBSIDIZED, THEY FAIL.

                                 THIS IS WHAT WE GET WITH ONE-RULE GOVERNMENT

                    DOMINATED BY SOCIALISM, AND I WON'T -- I WON'T BE VOTING FOR THIS.  BUT

                    THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I HAVE A BILL TO SPLIT THIS STATE AND GET RID OF NEW

                    YORK CITY AND LET THE REST OF THE STATE BE ON ITS ON AND FEND FOR ITSELF

                    BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU FROM UPSTATE, WE'RE SICK AND TIRED OF HAVING

                    THESE -- THESE -- THESE INITIATIVES THROWN DOWN OUR THROAT.  I'LL BE VOTING

                    NO.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. DIPIETRO IN THE

                    NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 PAGE 18, RULES REPORT NO. 312, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  SENATE NO. S06584-C, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 312, SENATOR GIANARIS (GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, MAMDANI, RAGA,

                    GALLAGHER, GLICK, SILLITTI, SIMON, BURDICK, FORREST, SEAWRIGHT, FALL,

                    SHIMSKY, LEVENBERG, SAYEGH, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, CLARK, SIMONE,

                    SHRESTHA, KELLES, CARROLL, LEE, L. ROSENTHAL, HEVESI, CRUZ --

                    A06219-B).  AN ACT TO AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW, IN RELATION TO THE

                                         317



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    COLLECTION OF CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC INFORMATION BY CERTAIN STATE

                    AGENCIES, BOARDS, DEPARTMENTS AND COMMISSIONS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  AN EXPLANATION IS

                    REQUESTED, MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    THIS BILL WOULD ADD A NEW SECTION TO THE EXECUTIVE LAW REQUIRING

                    EVERY STATE AGENCY, BOARD, DEPARTMENT OR COMMISSION THAT DIRECTLY

                    COLLECTS DEMOGRAPHIC DATA REGARDING THE ANCESTRY OR ETHNIC ORIGIN OF A

                    NEW YORK RESIDENT DISAGGREGATE MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN

                    FROM THE WHITE DEMOGRAPHIC, OR COLLECT SEPARATE DATA ON EACH MAJOR

                    MIDDLE EASTERN OR NORTH AFRICAN GROUP.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. GANDOLFO.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WOULD

                    THE SPONSOR PLEASE YIELD FOR A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS,

                    WILL YOU YIELD?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES, SIR.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS

                    YIELDS, SIR.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  THANK YOU, MA'AM.  SO JUST TO

                    START, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF GROUPS LISTED IN THIS BILL FROM THE MIDDLE

                    EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN REGION.  MY QUESTION WAS, HOW DID YOU

                    ARRIVE AT THESE SPECIFIED, I GUESS, NATIONS OF ORIGIN THEY WOULD BE?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT ALIGNS WITH THE FEDERAL

                                         318



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, THEIR DEFINITION.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY, BECAUSE I NOTICED THAT

                    THEIR -- THE -- THE NATIONS CONTAINED IN HERE DIFFER FROM SOME OTHER

                    DEFINITIONS; FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED NATIONS STATISTICS DIVISION AND

                    THEIR DEFINITION OF THE MENA REGION INCLUDE TURKEY, CYPRUS,

                    AZERBAIJAN, AND WE ALSO INCLUDE ARMENIA IN THIS DEFINITION.  SO WHY --

                    IT'S UNCOMMON TO SEE ARMENIA LISTED AS A MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY

                    WITHOUT TURKEY AND AZERBAIJAN.  SO WHY -- WHY ARE WE MAKING -- WHY

                    ARE WE INCLUDING THEM WITHOUT INCLUDING THE OTHERS?  IS IT --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, THE BILL SAYS

                    INCLUDED BUT NOT LIMITED TO, SO THESE ARE MOSTLY SOME OF THE TOP

                    COUNTRIES LISTED.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  SO IT'S NOT LIMITED TO ONLY

                    THE COUNTRIES LISTED IN THE BILL.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  SO WHEN IT'S NOT LIMITED TO, I

                    GUESS IN CONNECTION WITH THE FORMS THAT WOULD BE FILLED OUT, HOW --

                    HOW WOULD THOSE NATIONS EXPAND IF IT'S NOT LIMITED TO THOSE?  WHO

                    WOULD ADD ON MAYBE ADDITIONAL NATIONS LIKE CYPRUS, SOME DEFINITIONS

                    INCLUDE MALTA?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  AGAIN, WE'RE MOSTLY

                    ALIGNING WITH WHAT THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET INCLUDES.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.  SO THIS GOES INTO EFFECT --

                    NOW, IN ORDER FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO CLAIM THIS NEW DEMOGRAPHIC

                    CATEGORY, HOW MUCH ANCESTRY -- ANCESTRAL ROOTS WOULD THEY HAVE TO

                                         319



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HAVE TO THOSE NATIONS?  IS IT SOMETHING THAT COULD SHOW UP YOUR

                    ANCESTRYDNA, YOUR 23ANDME?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S ALL SELF-IDENTIFIED --

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  IT'S SELF-IDENTIFIED?  OKAY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  -- INFORMATION, YES.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.  SO RIGHT NOW THEY'RE

                    BEING RECORDED AS WHITE FOR DATA COLLECTION, AND I KNOW IN THE

                    SPONSOR'S MEMO IT'S REFERENCED THAT THERE'S A LOT OF INDIVIDUALS FROM

                    THIS REGION WHO HAVE ECONOMIC TROUBLES, HOUSING INSECURITY.  HOW ARE

                    WE -- HOW ARE ANALYZING THAT DATA IF WE'RE NOT COLLECTING IT CURRENTLY?

                    HOW DO WE KNOW RELATIVE TO OTHER, CERTAIN GROUPS THAT THEY HAVE THESE

                    ISSUES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SOLVE?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, THE DATA -- THE

                    CENSUS BUREAU HAS A QUESTION, IT'S QUESTION NUMBER NINE, AND SAYS

                    WHAT IS THE PERSON'S RACE.  UNDER WHITE -- AND IT REQUIRES YOU TO CHECK

                    YOUR RACE AND LIST YOUR COUNTRY OF ORIGIN.  AND UNDER WHITE, IT SAYS --

                    PRINT, FOR EXAMPLE, GERMAN, IRISH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, LEBANESE,

                    EGYPTIAN.  SO THAT INFORMATION IS -- IS RECORDED, IT'S JUST NOT

                    DISAGGREGATED BY STATE AGENCIES, COMMISSIONS AND BOARDS FOR PUBLIC

                    CONSUMPTION.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  SO THE INFORMATION IS

                    THERE.  IF YOU LOVE THIS KIND OF STUFF LIKE I DO, YOU CAN FIND IT, BUT IT'S

                    NOT READILY ACCESSIBLE NOR DISAGGREGATED BY THE STATE.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.  SO NOW IT WILL BE

                                         320



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AGGREGATED.  WHY IS IT BEING DISAGGREGATED FROM WHITE IN PARTICULAR

                    RATHER THAN JUST COLLECTING THE DATA ON THEIR NATION OF ORIGIN?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  ASK IT -- I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  SORRY.  WHY -- SO WE'RE

                    COLLECTING THE DATA ON THEIR ETHNICITY, THEIR NATION ORIGIN, THEIR ANCESTRAL

                    ROOTS.  WHY IS THAT BEING DISAGGREGATED FROM WHITE?  FOR WHAT

                    PURPOSE IS THAT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THE

                    MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION ARE CONSIDERED WHITE UNDER

                    THE U.S. CENSUS, SO THAT'S WHERE THEIR IDENTITY IS CAPTURED.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.  SO -- AND THAT'S -- WHY IS

                    THAT AN ISSUE, WHY -- WHY DOES THAT HAVE TO CHANGE?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, BECAUSE THE MIDDLE

                    EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION DON'T EXPERIENCE SOME OF THE SAME

                    EXPERIENCES THAT WHITE COMMUNITIES EXPERIENCE.  SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE

                    FEDERAL WORKING GROUP UNDER THE WHITE HOUSE'S OFFICE OF

                    MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS ISSUE FOR MANY,

                    MANY YEARS, AND THEY RELEASED A RECOMMENDATION RECENTLY TO INCLUDE A

                    SEPARATE -- I'LL SAY, MENA - MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN - CATEGORY,

                    AND THEY QUOTE, "MANY MENA COMMUNITY MEMBERS DO NOT SHARE

                    LIVED EXPERIENCES AS WHITE PEOPLE WITH EUROPEAN ANCESTRY, DO NOT

                    IDENTIFY AS WHITE AND ARE NOT PERCEIVED AS WHITE BY OTHER

                    INDIVIDUALS."  SO THERE'S A NEED TO REALLY PULL OUT THAT DATA AND

                    UNDERSTAND WHAT COMMUNITIES WE'RE REPRESENTING.  I'LL GIVE YOU ONE

                    PERFECT EXAMPLE THAT I'VE EXPERIENCED.  PRIOR TO REDISTRICTING, MY

                                         321



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DISTRICT WAS 60 PERCENT LATINO, 27 PERCENT ASIAN, THERE WAS SOME

                    MISCELLANEOUS POPULATIONS, BUT IT WAS 11 PERCENT WHITE.  I'VE NOW

                    EXPANDED MY DISTRICT TO INCLUDE THE NEIGHBORHOODS OF ASTORIA, WHICH

                    HAS A HUGE MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION.  SO I WENT FROM

                    11 PERCENT WHITE TO 27 PERCENT WHITE.  I KNOW MY -- I KNOW ASTORIA

                    VERY WELL, SO I KNOW THAT THE POPULATION IN MY COMMUNITY IS NOT

                    ACTUALLY WHITE, THEY ARE MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN.  BUT I DON'T

                    HAVE THE DATA OR RESOURCES TO REALLY BE ABLE TO ADEQUATELY SERVE THEM.

                    I KNOW THEM, I WORK WITH THEM, I'M IN THE COMMUNITY, BUT THE

                    NUMBERS DON'T SHOW THAT.  SO I DON'T KNOW SOME OF THE HEALTH

                    DISPARITIES THAT THEY MIGHT EXPERIENCE, SOME OF THE LINGUISTIC NEEDS

                    THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE, SOME OF THE CULTURAL NEEDS.  SO THIS IS ALL

                    INFORMATION THAT WE JUST WANT TO PULL OUT FROM THE WHITE CATEGORY TO

                    MAKE BETTER INFORMED CHOICES AND DECISIONS AROUND OUR POLICIES.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY, THAT'S A FAIR POINT.  I DON'T

                    THINK DATA COLLECTION IS NECESSARILY A BAD THING, DEPENDING ON HOW IT'S

                    USED.  I KNOW IN THE SPONSOR'S MEMO IT REFERENCES THAT BY CLASSIFYING

                    THEM AS NON-WHITE, NOW THEY WOULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR MAYBE MORE

                    EQUITY-BASED AID PROGRAMS.  CAN YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF SOME

                    PROGRAMS THAT THEY'RE CURRENTLY INELIGIBLE FOR THAT THEY WOULD NOW BE

                    ELIGIBLE FOR?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, THE -- REDISTRICTING

                    IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE.  REDISTRICTING REALLY LOOKS AT KEEPING

                    COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST TOGETHER AND, ACTUALLY, THE MIDDLE EASTERN/

                    NORTH AFRICAN POPULATION IN ASTORIA WAS SPLIT BETWEEN MYSELF AND MY

                                         322



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OTHER COLLEAGUE RIGHT NEXT TO ME BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT INCORPORATED AS

                    ONE COMMUNITY OF INTEREST.  SO THAT'S ONE EXAMPLE.  THEY'RE NOT

                    ELIGIBLE FOR MWBE PROGRAMS.  AGAIN, WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT SOME

                    HEALTH DISPARITIES THAT THEY MAY EXPERIENCE, ENVIRONMENTAL INEQUITIES

                    THAT THEY MIGHT EXPERIENCE.  ALL THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE

                    BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE DISAGGREGATED DATA IN OUR STATE AGENCIES.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  OKAY.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR

                    YOUR RESPONSES.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, ON THE BILL, PLEASE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  ON THE BILL, SIR.

                                 MR. GANDOLFO:  MR. SPEAKER, AS I JUST REFERENCED,

                    DATA COLLECTION'S NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING, BUT IN THIS CASE IT SEEMS

                    LIKE WE'RE COLLECTING THIS DATA FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING

                    ADDITIONAL PEOPLE ELIGIBLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING AND PROBABLY DO NEED

                    MORE HELP TO DEAL WITH THEIR HOUSING INSECURITY, THEIR ECONOMIC

                    TROUBLES.  BUT THERE -- I THINK IT HIGHLIGHTS THAT THERE ARE PLENTY OF

                    PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WHO DO NOT QUALIFY FOR EXTRA ASSISTANCE JUST

                    BECAUSE OF AN IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTIC, THEY'RE NOT CLASSIFIED AS

                    NON-WHITE.  NOW, ARE THERE MORE GROUPS THAT THIS SHOULD BE EXPANDED

                    TO?  WHERE DOES THIS END?  HOW COME WE ARE NOT GOING TO COLLECT DATA

                    ON DIFFERENT EUROPEAN REGIONS SUCH AS NORTHERN EUROPEAN, SOUTHERN

                    EUROPEAN?  NOT NECESSARILY CLASSIFY THEM AS NON-WHITE, BUT JUST TO

                    COLLECT MORE DATA SO WE CAN LOOK FOR TRENDS AND DIFFICULTIES THAT THEY'RE

                    HAVING.

                                 SO I -- I UNDERSTAND THE SPONSOR'S INTENT HERE IS TO

                                         323



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    BETTER SERVE HER COMMUNITY AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS THAT WE

                    HAVE IN NEW YORK, WE ARE A MELTING POT, BUT I -- I FEEL THAT THE REASON

                    THAT THIS IS BEING DONE IS LEAVING PEOPLE OUT WHO COULD USE MORE

                    ASSISTANCE AS WELL.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU.

                                 MR. MAMDANI.

                                 MR. MAMDANI:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I RISE

                    BECAUSE I HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF REPRESENTING ASTORIA ALONGSIDE THE

                    SPONSOR OF THIS LEGISLATION, AND ASTORIA IS ALSO WHERE THE FORMER MAYOR

                    OF NEW YORK CITY, MIKE BLOOMBERG, HAD AN NYPD UNIT TITLED "THE

                    DEMOGRAPHICS UNIT" RUNNING OPERATIONS.  THIS IS WHERE A UNIT THAT WAS

                    TASKED WITH THE ILLEGAL SURVEILLANCE OF MUSLIMS PURELY ON THE BASIS OF

                    OUR FAITH WOULD SURVEIL WHEN MUSLIMS WOULD GO TO THE BARBERSHOP,

                    WHEN WE WOULD GO TO THE HOOKAH BAR, WHEN WE WOULD GO TO ASTORIA

                    PARK, WHEN WE WOULD GO TO -- GO ABOUT OUR DAILY LIVES.  AND WITHIN

                    THAT UNIT THEY HAD A LIST OF 28 ANCESTRIES OF INTEREST, AND ON THAT LIST OF

                    ANCESTRIES THEY INCLUDED ARAB ETHNICITIES SUCH AS PALESTINIAN,

                    JORDANIAN, SYRIAN, TO NAME A FEW.  AND SO IT WOULD BE A POINT OF

                    CONFUSION FOR MYSELF AND SO MANY OTHERS THAT WHEN IT CAME TO THE

                    ISSUE OF SURVEILLANCE, THE STATE SAW IT FIT TO ENGAGE IN DATA

                    DISAGGREGATION.  BUT UNTIL THIS MOMENT WHEN IT CAME TO THE QUESTION OF

                    STATE SUPPORT OR RECOGNITION OR HAVING ANY INPUT ON STATE POLICY, IT WAS

                    NOT WORTHY.

                                 AND SO I WOULD LIKE TO THANK THE SPONSOR FOR

                    RECOGNIZING THE FACT THAT MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN NEW

                                         324



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    YORKERS DO EXPERIENCE LIFE SEPARATE FROM THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY ARE

                    CATEGORIZED THUS FAR, AND THEIR PARTICULAR EXPERIENCES OF WHAT IT MEANS

                    TO BE A NEW YORKER OF THOSE BACKGROUNDS ARE ONES THAT ARE WORTHY OF

                    RECOGNITION AND ARE ONES THAT MUST BE UPHELD AND BROUGHT INTO THE

                    CHAMBERS OF POWER WHERE WE DECIDE THE LAWS THAT WILL ACTUALLY GOVERN

                    THEIR LIVES.

                                 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BLUMENCRANZ.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS

                    WILL YIELD, SIR.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, WHAT

                    IS THE -- THE -- YOU WENT OVER A LITTLE BIT THE -- THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT OF

                    THE BILL.  COULD YOU JUST KIND OF GO OVER, MAYBE I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED,

                    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ETHNICITY, RACE, AND NATIONALITY?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THE -- THERE'S A DEFINITION

                    IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT:  THE RACIAL CATEGORIES IN THE CENSUS

                    GENERALLY REFLECT THE SOCIAL DEFINITION OF RACE RECOGNIZED IN THIS

                    COUNTRY, AND IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO DEFINE RACE BIOLOGICALLY,

                    ANTHROPOLOGICALLY OR GENETICALLY.  IN ADDITION, IT'S RECOGNIZED THAT THE

                    CATEGORIES OF RACE ITEM INCLUDE RACIAL AND NATIONAL ORIGIN OR

                    SOCIOCULTURAL GROUPS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M JUST A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED

                    BECAUSE YOU -- YOU START THE BILL OFF BY TALKING ABOUT JUST THAT, RIGHT,

                                         325



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND THEN WHEN YOU GO TO CREATE THE SUBGROUPS, YOU THEN LIST POLITICAL

                    BORDERS AS A REFERENCE, RIGHT?  I MEAN, YOU -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ETHNIC

                    AND GENETIC ORIGIN, AND THEN WE REFERENCE CERTAIN COUNTRIES HERE THAT

                    WOULDN'T NECESSARILY IDENTIFY THEIR ETHNIC MAKEUP SUCH AS IRAN.  MOST

                    IRANIANS IDENTIFY AS PERSIANS, RIGHT?  I'M JUST CURIOUS WHEN THIS IS

                    IMPLEMENTED, ARE WE GOING TO BE PROVIDING THE ETHNICITY OR ARE WE

                    GONNA PROVIDE THE NATIONALITY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS, RIGHT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S HOW THEY SELF-

                    IDENTIFY.  THIS IS ALL ABOUT SELF-IDENTIFICATION, AND -- AND IF IT INCLUDES

                    THE REALM WITHIN THE NORTH AFRICAN OR MIDDLE EAST COUNTRIES -- AND

                    AGAIN, I'M LOOKING AT THE OMB RECOMMENDATIONS -- THEN THEY ARE

                    INCLUDED.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO IF I'M, SAY, A PERSIAN

                    INDIVIDUAL AND YOU PROVIDE IRANIAN AS AN OPTION ON THERE, I NOW THEN

                    HAVE TO -- AND I HAVE A POLITICAL BELIEF THAT I'M NOT AN IRANIAN, I DON'T

                    BELIEVE IN THE IRANIAN REGIME CURRENTLY, BUT I DO IDENTIFY AS PERSIAN,

                    NOW I HAVE TO IDENTIFY AS WHITE BECAUSE OF THE GUIDELINES JUST CREATES

                    MORE BOXES, BUT NOT MY BOX?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT WON'T BE MORE BOXES,

                    IT'S DISAGGREGATING THE CENSUS DATA THAT EXISTS ALREADY.  IT JUST ALLOWS US

                    TO PULL IT OUT AND SHARE THAT AS DATA FROM THE STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS,

                    COMMISSIONS AND DEPARTMENTS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  OKAY.  SO I KNOW YOU --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  SO I WANT TO BE CLEAR, THIS

                    IS -- THIS IS DATA THAT EXISTS ALREADY, IT'S JUST LUMPED INTO THE WHITE

                                         326



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CATEGORY.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO WE KNOW WHAT ETHNICITY

                    EVERYBODY IS, WE ARE JUST GONNA JUST START COLLECTING IT AS SUCH, OR WHAT

                    --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IF YOU FILLED THE CENSUS

                    IN 2020 AND YOU INCLUDED YOUR ORIGIN, THEN THAT DATA IS THERE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  BUT YOU'LL ALSO BE

                    CONTINUING TO COLLECT DATA FROM STATE AGENCIES, AS YOU STATE IN THE BILL,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S NOT COLLECTING DATA

                    FROM STATE AGENCIES, IT'S STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS, COMMISSIONS THAT --

                    THAT PROVIDE DATA, THAT -- THAT ISSUE DATA.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  YEAH, THEY -- THEY WILL --

                    THEY DO ISSUE DATA AND THEY WILL BE COLLECTING DATA AS WELL, AS STATED

                    HERE, WHEN THEY DO COLLECT DATA AND RACIAL AND ETHNIC DATA, THEY WILL

                    BE --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  -- COLLECTING DATA INCLUDING

                    THESE SUBCATEGORIES.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE'S

                    NORTH AFRICAN.  SO LIKE, THE MAGHREB, YOU ALSO HAVE LEVANT AND -- AND

                    THE MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES AS WELL AS THE LAST ONE YOU MENTION,

                    WHICH IS OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN GROUPS INCLUDING,

                    BUT NOT LIMITED TO, TRANSNATIONAL INDIGENOUS GROUPS.  NOW, IT IS

                                         327



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    SELF-IDENTIFICATION --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  -- BUT YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT

                    THE INTENTION OF THIS BILL TO PROVIDE MORE BENEFITS TO MINORITY AND

                    MARGINALIZED GROUPS.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THAT -- THAT'S THE HOPE,

                    IT'S REALLY TO PULL OUT THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAVE THE TOOLS TO MAKE

                    THOSE DECISIONS.  IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WILL AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFY

                    FOR MANY OF THESE PROGRAMS, BUT IT GIVES US THE DATA AND THE TOOLS TO

                    MAKE THOSE DECISIONS AND SEE WHAT PROGRAMS, PERHAPS, THEY MIGHT BE

                    ELIGIBLE FOR.  BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WHEN THEY ARE INCLUDED IN WHITE,

                    THEY'RE LITERALLY DEEMED INVISIBLE AND WE DON'T KNOW THE NEEDS THAT

                    THEY HAVE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO MIDDLE EASTERN

                    INDIVIDUALS ARE CURRENTLY CARVED OUT OF MBE [SIC] FUNDING, CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  BECAUSE THEY'RE

                    CONSIDERED WHITE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  BECAUSE THEY'RE CONSIDERED

                    WHITE.  SO THEY'LL STILL BE CARVED OUT, WE'LL JUST KNOW WHERE THEY ARE,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  THEY WILL STILL BE

                    CONSIDERED WHITE FOR THE PURPOSES OF RECEIVING BENEFITS, JUST NOT FOR

                    DATA COLLECTION UNDER THIS BILL.  BUT IT'S YOUR INTENTION TO EXPAND THAT,

                    CORRECT?

                                         328



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.  I MEAN, AGAIN, THE

                    DATA WOULD BE AVAILABLE IN ORDER TO LOOK AT THE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE

                    AND ENSURE THAT PEOPLE ARE INCLUDED.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO CONSIDERING THE

                    CLASSIFICATIONS PROVIDED HERE, I RECENTLY DID A 23ANDME.  I AM 99.9

                    PERCENT ASHKENAZI JEW WITH AN ORIGIN IN THE LEVANT, WHICH WOULD

                    MAKE ME MIDDLE EASTERN, TECHNICALLY, UNDER THE DEFINITIONS PROVIDED

                    AS PART OF A DIASPORA.  WOULD I THEN, UNDER NEW PROVISIONS TO THE LAWS

                    INCLUDING MIDDLE EASTERN COMMUNITIES, BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE STATE

                    BENEFITS FOR MINORITY BUSINESSES SUCH AS THE BILL WE PASSED RECENTLY

                    THIS YEAR IN ORDER TO RECEIVE NO-BID CONTRACTS AS A -- AS A MINORITY

                    BUSINESS?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IF YOU IDENTIFY AS MIDDLE

                    EASTERN OR NORTH AFRICAN, ANY STATE AGENCY, BOARD OR COMMISSION OR

                    DEPARTMENT THAT ISSUES THAT DATA WILL INCLUDE YOU IN THAT DATA.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  AND I WILL BE ELIGIBLE TO

                    RECEIVE BENEFITS AS A MINORITY?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THIS BILL ACTUALLY DOESN'T

                    IMPACT THOSE PROGRAMS, THIS JUST CREATES THE DATA AVAILABLE FOR THOSE

                    PROGRAMS TO ASSESS IF THEY CAN.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M JUST TRYING TO FLESH OUT

                    WHEN WE START TO HYPERCLASSIFY INDIVIDUALS BASED ON POLITICAL BORDERS

                    THAT WE'VE DONE HERE, OR IN MAYBE A MORE ACCURATE SENSE, MAYBE

                    INCLUDING THEIR ETHNIC MAKEUP, AGAIN, INCLUDING MAYBE AZERIS OR

                    TURKIC PEOPLE AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, OR PERSIANS, RATHER THAN THE

                                         329



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    POLITICAL BORDERS, WILL WE THEN HAVE TO SIT HERE AND DISCERN WHICH

                    MINORITIES, BY REGION, QUALIFY FOR BENEFITS BASED ON THAT DATA?  ARE WE

                    GONNA PICK AND CHOOSE WHO GETS WHAT WHEN WE START TO NARROW DOWN

                    THE FIELD OF WHO'S REALLY WHITE AND WHO'S NOT WHITE?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THAT'S NOT THE PURPOSE OF

                    THE BILL.  THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL IS TO HAVE THE STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS

                    AND COMMISSIONS THAT ISSUE THAT DATA TO DISAGGREGATE THAT DATA.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  BUT AS YOU'VE SAID BEFORE,

                    YOUR -- YOUR HOPE AND INTENTION IS TO INCLUDE PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE

                    EAST.  MAYBE NOT WHITE PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, EVEN THOUGH WE

                    INCLUDE WHITE PEOPLE AS HISPANIC UNDER THESE CLASSIFICATIONS, BUT JUST

                    PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN, CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  MY HOPE IS, BUT THE

                    PURPOSE OF THE BILL, THE VERY EXPLICIT PURPOSE, IS TO PROVIDE THE DATA AND

                    REQUIRE THE STATE AGENCIES, BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AND DEPARTMENTS

                    TO ISSUE THAT DATA AND MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  WILL EACH STATE AGENCY

                    THAT'S COLLECTING THIS DATA HAVE THE RIGHT TO INCLUDE OR NOT INCLUDE

                    RELATIVE TERMS, PLACES OF ORIGIN, POLITICAL MAKEUPS AS THEY SO CHOOSE?

                    CONSIDERING YOU GIVE EXAMPLES BUT NOT A DISTINCT LIST.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING

                    YOUR QUESTION.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO AFTER THE PASSAGE OF THIS

                    BILL --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.

                                         330



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  -- STATE AGENCIES THAT

                    COLLECT DATA AND ETHNO-RACE-BASED DATA WILL HAVE TO INCLUDE A

                    DROP-DOWN MENU IN THE SUBCATEGORY AND WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE MANY

                    DIFFERENT RELEVANT GROUPS, CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES, YES.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  YOU PROVIDE ONE OR TWO OR

                    THREE OR FOUR EXAMPLES IN EACH SUBCATEGORY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SOMEONE'S GONNA HAVE TO

                    FIGURE OUT THE REST OF THEM, WHO IS IT?  WHO'S GONNA DETERMINE WHETHER

                    OR NOT ISRAELI'S ON THERE, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW,

                    ASHKENAZI JEW, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GONNA BE SOMEONE FROM, YOU KNOW,

                    A NORTH AFRICAN SUBREGION OR A SUBGROUP?  I'M JUST -- I'M JUST TRYING TO

                    DETERMINE AND HONE IN ON WHAT THIS IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE AS WE START TO

                    CREATE INDIVIDUAL CATEGORIES AND COMMUNITIES OF NEED.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THE -- THE LANGUAGE SAYS

                    THAT IT'S INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, EGYPTIAN, MOROCCAN, ALGERIAN,

                    TUNISIAN, LIBYAN, AND THAT'S SOME OF THE NORTH AFRICAN GROUPS THAT ARE

                    INCLUDED, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, AND THEN THE MIDDLE EASTERN GROUPS

                    INCLUDED, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, INCLUDE YEMENI, IRANIAN, PALESTINIAN,

                    IRAQI, LEBANESE, ISRAELI, SYRIAN, ARMENIAN AND SAUDI.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO THOSE WILL BE THE ONLY

                    COUNTRIES LISTED?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED

                    TO.

                                         331



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  OKAY.  SO THEY CAN DECIDE

                    TO INCLUDE ALL OF THE CAUCUSES, FOR INSTANCE, MANY OF THE -STAN

                    COUNTRIES, ANY -- ANYWHERE THEY'D LIKE, REALLY, OR AS LITTLE AS THEY'D LIKE

                    EXCEPT FOR THOSE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES.

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YEAH -- IT -- IT CAN BE

                    ARBITRARY, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE UP TO THE AGENCIES PROVIDING THAT

                    INFORMATION AND DISAGGREGATING THAT INFORMATION.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  THAT SOUNDS KIND OF

                    ARBITRARY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THEY'RE REALLY -- THEY'RE

                    DEMOGRAPHERS, THERE'S PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTAND THESE CLASSIFICATIONS.

                    AGAIN, WE USE A LOT OF THE OMB LANGUAGE BECAUSE THAT IS THE, YOU

                    KNOW, PREMIERE LANGUAGE UNDER THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU.  BUT AGAIN,

                    IT'S -- IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT ARBITRARY; THERE'S -- THERE'S AN AREA AND A REGION

                    THAT IS INCLUDED UNDER MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  THERE IS ETHNIC GROUPS IN

                    THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA, BUT WE ARE LISTING COUNTRIES, RIGHT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YEAH.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

                    GENETIC MAKEUP WHICH DOES NOT GO BACK TO A COUNTRY, BUT AN ETHNIC

                    GROUP, RIGHT?  YOU SEE THE CONFUSION I'M SEEING HERE?  I'M -- I'M -- IT'S

                    NOT HOW WE CLASSIFY ETHNICITY BASED ON -- YOU KNOW, MY ETHNIC

                    MAKEUP IS NOT AMERICAN, ISRAEL IS A VERY MULTI-CULTURAL COUNTRY WITH

                    PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.  THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAELI BY ETHNICITY,

                                         332



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, WHAT COULD HAPPEN

                    IS THAT THEY COULD PUT OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN, WHICH IS

                    SOMETHING THAT WE MIGHT SEE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  OKAY, SO THEN IT COULD JUST

                    BE -- I'M -- FOR DATA COLLECTION PURPOSES THAT SEEMS TO DEFEAT THE

                    PURPOSE OF THIS, WHICH IS HONING IN ON GROUPS OF NEED.  AND IF WE THEN

                    START TO SPECIFICALLY SEE CERTAIN GROUPS BUT OTHER GROUPS FEEL

                    UNDERREPRESENTED, WOULDN'T THAT BE A LACK OF DATA COLLECTION AND, THUS,

                    LIKE IN THE BILL, IF THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S SUFFICIENT THEY JUST SIMPLY

                    WON'T REPORT IT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING

                    YOUR LAST POINT HERE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  AS YOU STATE HERE, IF THEY

                    FEEL LIKE THERE ISN'T SUFFICIENT DATA FOR COLLECTION THEN THEY'RE JUST NOT

                    GONNA COLLECT IT.  I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW THIS DATA COLLECTION

                    WILL BE UTILIZED IS A MYSTERY AND CONCERNING IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT WHAT

                    THE DATA COLLECTION WILL LOOK LIKE IF WE DON'T HAVE SPECIFIC GUIDELINES

                    FOR WHAT ETHNIC GROUPS BECAUSE THEY WON'T BE ETHNIC GROUPS.  SO WHAT

                    COUNTRIES WILL BE LISTED SO YOU CAN NAME THEM AS YOUR ETHNICITY

                    (INAUDIBLE).

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'LL BE UP TO THE AGENCIES,

                    BOARDS, AND COMMISSIONS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO WE'RE ALL GONNA COLLECT

                    DIFFERENT DATA POINTS ON DIFFERENT GROUPS --

                                         333



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  AND AGAIN, THIS IS

                    SELF-IDENTIFIED DATA.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  YES.  I'M NOT A SCIENTIST, BUT

                    IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A GREAT WAY TO TRY AND FIND AND HONE IN ON A

                    PROBLEM IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES IF NONE OF YOUR DATA'S THE SAME,

                    CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  I'M SORRY, I'M HAVING A

                    HARD TIME HEARING YOU.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M HAVING A HARD TIME

                    UNDERSTANDING HOW YOU'LL ACHIEVE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING TO ACHIEVE,

                    WHICH IS SEEING THE DATA ON THESE COMMUNITIES IF, A, WE'RE NOT

                    COLLECTING ETHNIC DATA, WE'RE COLLECTING WHERE -- WHAT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN

                    YOU'RE FROM IN THIS CATEGORY AND, B, WE ARE NOT GONNA HAVE THE SAME

                    TYPE OF DATA AT ANY STATE AGENCY BECAUSE THERE'S NO SPECIFIC

                    REQUIREMENT FOR WHO'S INCLUDED AND WHO'S NOT INCLUDED.  WHAT IF AN

                    AGENCY DOESN'T FEEL COMPELLED TO INCLUDE A CERTAIN REGION OR COUNTRY?

                    NOW YOUR DATA IS -- IS INVALID, ESSENTIALLY.  YOU'RE NOT COLLECTING THE

                    DATA YOU'RE EXPECTING TO COLLECT.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THESE -- THESE ARE THE

                    MAJOR POPULATIONS THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.  THIS WILL PROVIDE A GUIDELINE

                    FOR COLLECTING THE DATA.  AGAIN, THE AGENCIES WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR

                    CREATING A PROCESS TO DO SO, YOU KNOW, AND THERE'S EXPERTS IN THE

                    CENSUS BUREAU THAT CAN ASSIST WITH THIS.  IT'S -- IT'S -- YOU'RE -- I THINK

                    YOU'RE OVERCOMPLICATING THIS, TO BE HONEST.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M SORRY, I DON'T THINK I'M

                                         334



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OVERCOMPLICATING IT BASED ON OTHER LEGISLATION I'VE SEEN HERE.  THERE IS

                    A SERIOUS NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHO THESE GROUPS ARE, BUT SEEING THE

                    SPECIFIC COLLECTION OF SPECIFIC GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN TARGETED BY OTHER

                    LEGISLATION IS OF CONCERN TO ME AS A MEMBER OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

                    AND I JUST WANT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE INTENTIONS OF A PIECE OF

                    LEGISLATION LIKE THIS, AND THAT IS WHY I'M TRYING TO GET TO THE SPECIFICS TO

                    MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE SEE LEGISLATION WHERE WE WANT TO CLOSE DOWN

                    THINGS LIKE PLACES OF WORSHIP, I WANT TO KNOW IF WE'RE COLLECTING DATA

                    ON WHERE THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE AND WHAT RESOURCES THEY'RE RECEIVING OR

                    WHAT THEY WON'T RECEIVE WHILE OTHER GROUPS WILL, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE

                    FROM THE SAME REGION, CORRECT?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S -- IT'S THE SAME DATA

                    WE -- WE COLLECT FOR ANYBODY.  IT'S THE SAME INFORMATION, IT'S JUST

                    PULLING OUT AND UNDERSTANDING HOW THESE FOLKS IDENTIFY.  WE JUST

                    PASSED A BILL IN 2021 THAT REQUIRES US TO DISAGGREGATE THE ASIAN DATA.

                    AS WE KNOW, AN EXPERIENCE BY SOMEONE WHO IS FILIPINO MAY BE VERY

                    DIFFERENT THAN THE EXPERIENCE OF SOMEONE WHO IS BANGLADESHI TO HAVE

                    PERHAPS DIFFERENT LANGUAGE NEEDS, DIFFERENT CULTURAL NEEDS, DIFFERENT

                    RELIGIOUS NEEDS.  I REPRESENT A DISTRICT THAT RUNS THE GAMUT.  I WOULD

                    LOVE TO KNOW EXACTLY, YOU KNOW, WHERE MY EGYPTIAN COMMUNITIES ARE,

                    WHERE MY MOROCCAN COMMUNITIES ARE, JUST IN THE SAME WAY I WANT TO

                    KNOW WHERE MY FILIPINO COMMUNITIES ARE.  THIS TOOL JUST GIVES US THAT

                    INFORMATION.  THIS BILL GIVES US THAT INFORMATION TO HAVE THE DATA AND

                    RESOURCES.  WHAT WE DO WITH THAT IS SEPARATE AND APART FROM -- FROM THE

                    ACTUAL BILL.  THE ACTUAL BILL'S INTENT AND PURPOSE IS TO PROVIDE THAT

                                         335



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    INFORMATION.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I RESPECT THE ANSWER, BUT I

                    AM CONCERNED BECAUSE IN THOSE CATEGORIES WE DO NOT INCLUDE

                    DIASPORAS, AND THERE IS A LOT OF GEOPOLITICAL COMPLEXITIES WHEN IT

                    COMES TO MANY OF THESE REGIONS.  THE TURKS -- THE -- THE KURDS, FOR

                    INSTANCE, ARE THEY MIDDLE EASTERN IF THEY ARE IN AN OCCUPIED PORTION OF

                    TURKEY, ARE THEY NOT?  THE CLASSIFICATION MAY MUDDY THE WATERS FOR THE

                    INTENDED GOAL OF THIS EXERCISE, AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE IF WE ARE

                    GOING TO THEN DICTATE LEGISLATION BASED ON DATA WE'RE COLLECTING HERE,

                    ARE WE DOING SO IN A WAY THAT IS SUFFICIENTLY REPRESENTING CERTAIN

                    COMMUNITIES.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION?

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M OKAY.  I THINK -- I THINK I

                    -- I THINK I GOT WHAT I NEEDED OUT OF THIS --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S -- IT'S -- PEOPLE

                    SELF-IDENTIFY IN THE U.S. CENSUS DATA.  MY HOPE AND GOAL IS TO GET THAT

                    INFORMATION, DISAGGREGATE IT BY WHITE -- DISAGGREGATE THE WHITE

                    CATEGORY TO PULL OUT THIS MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN COMMUNITY.

                    THESE ARE THE COUNTRIES LISTED.  THIS IS THE STANDARD BY WHICH THE

                    OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET USES FOR THE U.S. CENSUS, AND WE

                    CAN THEN USE THAT DATA IN WAYS WE SEE FIT AS A LEGISLATURE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO --

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  YOU HAVE EXPENDED

                    YOUR TIME.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  OH, YEAH.  I'LL EXTEND MY

                                         336



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    TIME, I JUST HAVE A FEW MORE QUESTIONS.

                                 SO ON THE CENSUS WHEN YOU SEE THE ETHNICITY PORTION,

                    IT'LL SAY IRANIAN CURRENTLY?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  I'M SORRY?

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  ON -- ON THE CENSUS, YOU

                    SAID IT'S -- IT'S WHAT THE CENSUS IS DOING RIGHT NOW.  THE CENSUS OFFERS

                    POLITICAL BORDERS UNDER ETHNICITY?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THE CENSUS READS, WHAT

                    IS PERSON 1'S RACE, OR PERSON 2, WHATEVER, HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU HAVE

                    IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD, MARK AN X FOR ONE OR MORE BOXES AND PRINT ORIGINS.

                    FOR THE WHITE CATEGORY IT SAYS, WHITE, PRINT, FOR EXAMPLE, GERMAN,

                    IRISH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, LEBANESE, ET CETERA.  YOU SELF-IDENTIFY HOW YOU

                    -- HOW YOU IDENTIFY IN THIS CATEGORY.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  YOUR NATION OF ORIGIN, NOT

                    YOUR ETHNICITY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT -- IT SAYS YOUR ORIGINS,

                    PRINT ORIGINS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  ORIGIN, JUST ORIGIN.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THAT'S THE LANGUAGE THEY

                    USE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO NOT ETHNIC MAKEUP, BUT

                    WE ARE USING THE TERM "ETHNICITY" AND GENETIC MAKEUP HERE IN YOUR

                    PIECE OF LEGISLATION, SO IF THEY'RE NOT AND YOU ARE, WHAT HAPPENS?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, IN FACT THE CENSUS

                    HAS ISSUED A DIRECTIVE VERY RECENTLY THAT MAKES RECOMMENDATION FOR

                                         337



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THE FUTURE CENSUS, THE 2030 CENSUS, TO -- TO PUT THE RACE AND ETHNIC

                    CATEGORY TOGETHER AND INCLUDE A MIDDLE EASTERN/NORTH AFRICAN CHECK

                    BOX.  NOW, THAT'S NOT YET FIRM, THEY HAVEN'T YET MADE THAT DECISION,

                    THERE'S A PROCESS BY WHICH THAT'LL BE INCLUDED, IF IT IS.  BUT THAT IS A

                    RECOMMENDATION ALSO BY THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  SO WE'RE GONNA BETTER

                    CLASSIFY INDIVIDUALS BY MIXING RACE AND ETHNICITY TOGETHER?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THAT'S JUST A

                    RECOMMENDATION BY YEARS OF STUDY WITH SOCIAL SCIENTISTS AT THE U.S.

                    CENSUS -- AT THE -- AT THE WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND

                    BUDGET.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I'M JUST -- OUT OF CURIOSITY,

                    DO YOU HAVE THE HYPOTHESIS AS TO WHY THAT'S A MORE EFFICIENT WAY OF

                    COLLECTING AND UNDERSTANDING THE DATA SURROUNDING THESE INDIVIDUALS?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING

                    YOUR QUESTION.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I THINK ANYONE WHO

                    UNDERSTANDS THAT SOMEONE'S ETHNIC MAKEUP, FOR INSTANCE THE JEWISH

                    COMMUNITY, RIGHT, THEY COME FROM A DIASPORA THAT'S THOUSANDS OF YEARS

                    LONG, AND I MAY BE ETHNIC -- ETHNICALLY AN ASHKENAZI JEW BASED ON MY

                    GENETIC MAKEUP, BUT THAT'S NOT MY RACE, PER SE.  I COULD POTENTIALLY

                    IDENTIFY AS PART OF THE JEWISH RACE; THAT DOESN'T MAKE A WHOLE LOT OF

                    SENSE.  SO IT -- YOU'RE -- YOU'RE CREATING AN UMBRELLA TERM AND TAKING

                    TWO VERY SPECIFIC AND DISTINCTIVE THINGS AND THEN ELIMINATING IT BY

                    MAKING THEM ONE.  AND I'M VERY CONCERNED AS TO WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK

                                         338



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LIKE, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT REAL GUIDANCE.  THIS IS KIND OF A GUIDELINE THAT

                    WE'RE USING THAT WILL DISCOUNT THE SERIOUS ISSUES AND THE LASTING EFFECTS

                    OF MAPS DRAWN NOT TOO LONG AGO TO ELIMINATE THOSE ETHNIC MAKEUPS AND

                    THEIR IDENTITY, AND YET WE'RE USING THEM AS THEIR ONLY CLASSIFICATION TOOL

                    HERE.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THE U.S. CENSUS SAYS

                    THAT THE RACIAL CATEGORIES ARE A GENERALLY [SIC] REFLECTION OF A SOCIAL

                    DEFINITION OF THE RACE RECOGNIZED IN THIS COUNTRY, AND NOT AN ATTEMPT TO

                    DEFINE RACE BIOLOGICALLY, ANTHROPOLOGICALLY OR GENETICALLY, AND IS

                    RECOGNIZED THAT THE CATEGORIES OF RACE ITEM INCLUDE RACIAL, NATIONAL

                    ORIGIN AND SOCIOCULTURAL GROUPS.  THAT'S THE LANGUAGE THEY HAVE.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  OKAY.  SO IF THEY DECIDE TO

                    CHANGE THE WAY THEY SEE AND DEFINE THESE THINGS, AS THEY HAVE MANY

                    TIMES BEFORE, ARE WE JUST GONNA DO WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

                    DOES?  I FEEL LIKE NEW YORK ALWAYS TRIES TO BE ONE STEP AHEAD OF THE

                    CURVE WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING SURE PEOPLE FEEL REPRESENTED, AND IF

                    THEY'RE CONSOLIDATING THESE REPRESENTATIONS, WILL WE DO THE SAME THING?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WE'RE HOPING TO BE AHEAD

                    OF IT, THAT THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.  IF IT'S APPROVED, IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN

                    UNTIL 2030.  BUT AGAIN, RIGHT NOW I'M REPRESENTING A DISTRICT THAT IS 27

                    PERCENT WHITE THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY NOT 27 -- 27 PERCENT WHITE, THAT THEY

                    HAVE SPECIFIC NEEDS IN TERMS OF THEIR LANGUAGE ACCESS, IN TERMS OF

                    CULTURAL NEEDS.  THEY'RE NOT INCLUDED UNDER ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE

                    COMMUNITY EVEN THOUGH I HAVE ASTHMA ALLEY IN MY COMMUNITY.  AND

                    I'M NOT JUST SPEAKING TO MY COMMUNITY.  THERE ARE NEARLY 500,000 --

                                         339



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AND THAT'S AN ESTIMATE, RIGHT, BECAUSE THAT DATA'S NOT FULLY THERE -- OF

                    MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN PEOPLE IN NEW YORK STATE, AND YET

                    WE ALL DON'T HAVE READILY AVAILABLE DATA TO KNOW WHERE THEY ARE IN OUR

                    COMMUNITIES.  SO THIS -- THIS IS TO PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION.  DATA IS

                    POWER, DATA IS INFORMATION.  DATA IS A TOOL THAT WE CAN USE TO MAKE

                    BETTER POLICY DECISIONS.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  I -- I JUST -- I'M NOT --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THIS BILL JUST FOCUSES ON

                    DISAGGREGATING THAT DATA FOR PURPOSES OF DISTRIBUTING THAT BY BOARDS,

                    COMMISSIONS AND DEPARTMENTS THAT PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION.

                                 MR. BLUMENCRANZ:  GOOD DATA IS POWERFUL, BAD

                    DATA IS A WEAPON AND I'M JUST TRYING TO AVOID THAT.

                                 I THINK THAT'S ALL I HAVE FOR NOW.  THANK YOU VERY

                    MUCH.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. SAYEGH.

                                 MR. SAYEGH:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  I JUST WANTED

                    FIRST TO THANK THE SPONSOR.  AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING OFF

                    COURSE LOOKING AT BENEFITS AND SO FORTH.  I THINK MOST OF US THAT KNOW

                    HISTORY KNOW THE CONTINENTS AND THE REGIONS OF THE WORLD WE DEAL WITH,

                    AND WE KNOW THAT WHEN SOMEBODY CALLS THEMSELVES AN AFRICAN

                    AMERICAN, THEY REFER TO MOSTLY SUB-SAHARA; THAT'S LARGELY BLACK

                    INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE RIGHTFULLY CALLED AFRICAN AMERICANS.  WHEN

                    SOMEBODY CALLS THEMSELVES AN EUROPEAN, WE KNOW THEY'RE FROM THE

                    CONTINENT OF EUROPE, AND WE KNOW THE MAKEUP OF EUROPEANS.  WHEN

                    SOMEBODY TELLS YOU THEY'RE FROM THE FAR EAST OR FROM THE ASIAN

                                         340



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    PENINSULA, THERE'S A LOT OF CONFUSION THERE.  SOMETIMES IF YOU'RE FROM

                    THE MIDDLE EAST AND YOUR ORIGINS ARE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU'RE NOT

                    CONSIDERED ASIAN.  BUT I KNOW AS A HISTORY MAJOR, THE MIDDLE EAST IS

                    TECHNICALLY PART OF ASIA.  SO IF YOU'RE FROM LEBANON OR YOU'RE FROM

                    JORDAN OR FROM ISRAEL, YOU'RE TECHNICALLY OUT OF ASIA, BUT YOU'RE NOT

                    INCLUDED THERE.  AND PEOPLE FROM NORTH AFRICA AND PEOPLE FROM THE

                    MIDDLE EAST THAT GENERALLY CONSIST OF THE ARABIAN PENINSULA, TURKEY,

                    PERSIA, ISRAEL AND THOSE BORDERS ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY LOST IN THE

                    SAUCE.  AND WE FOCUS OUR DISCUSSIONS ON BENEFITS WHEN THE TRUE

                    PURPOSE OF THIS LEGISLATION, WHETHER ON THE STATE LEVEL OR THE FEDERAL

                    LEVEL, IS TO GIVE A LITTLE CREDIBILITY AND IDENTITY OF PEOPLE OF NORTH

                    AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST.  AND WHEN CITY AND STATE MAYBE THREE OR

                    FOUR MONTHS AGO RECOGNIZED MENA, MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICAN,

                    AS A CATEGORY, THAT REALLY GOT THE BALL ROLLING.  AND WE IN NEW YORK

                    TAKE PRIDE IN LEADING THE NATION IN RECOGNIZING A NEED TO RESPECT

                    EVERYONE.

                                 SO WHEN YOU'RE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, WHETHER YOU'RE

                    ARAB, WHETHER YOU'RE JEW, WHETHER YOU'RE PERSIAN, WHETHER YOU'RE

                    TURKISH, WHETHER YOU'RE KURDISH, YOU'RE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.  AND

                    YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF BY ETHNICITY, BY RACE, BY YOUR

                    NATION OF ORIGIN OR YOUR ANCESTORS.  IT'S UP TO YOU.  THIS IS NOT A

                    POLITICAL MATTER.  IT'S A MATTER OF RECOGNIZING THERE'S AN AREA OF THE

                    WORLD AND THERE'S MANY PEOPLE IN THAT REGION OF THE WORLD THAT WANT A

                    SENSE OF IDENTITY, AND THIS IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.

                                 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                         341



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. NOVAKHOV.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    THANKFULLY, MY COLLEAGUE MR. BLUMENCRANZ ASKED ABOUT 95 PERCENT OF

                    MY QUESTIONS, SO I HAVE JUST -- JUST A FEW LEFT, SO IF THE SPONSOR WOULD

                    YIELD I WOULD APPRECIATE IT.  MR. SPEAKER, WILL THE SPONSOR YIELD?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE SPONSOR YIELDS.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  THANK YOU; THANK YOU, MADAM

                    SPONSOR.  SO HOW THE MIDDLE EASTERN PERSON WILL BE DETERMINED, BY --

                    BY BEING BORN SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S SELF-IDENTIFICATION.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  SO, I'M A GREAT EXAMPLE

                    BECAUSE I WAS -- BY THE WAY, IS AZERBAIJAN A PART OF THE MIDDLE EAST IN

                    -- IN YOUR LEGISLATION?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S NOT LISTED AS ONE OF

                    THE COUNTRIES, BUT AGAIN, IT'S -- IT'S NOT LIMITED TO THE LIST OF COUNTRIES

                    HERE; I HAD 14 COUNTRIES HERE.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  SO HOW THIS LIST CAN BE

                    EXTENDED?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  HOW -- IT WOULD BE UP TO

                    THE --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  BECAUSE AZERBAIJAN --

                    AZERBAIJAN IS NEXT TO IRAN, THEY'RE SHARING A BORDER AND ACROSS THE

                    BLACK SEA FROM TURKEY.  SO AZERBAIJAN -- AND -- AND ARMENIA, THEY

                    HAVE BORDERS WITH ARMENIA.  SO AZERBAIJANIS MIGHT SAY, WHY WE ARE --

                                         342



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ARE -- WE ARE NOT CONSIDERED AS PART OF THE MIDDLE EASTERN GROUP?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WELL, IT'S HOW PEOPLE

                    IDENTIFY AND SELF-IDENTIFICATION, AND THEN THE LIST OF COUNTRIES IS

                    INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, AND THE COUNTRIES PERHAPS BEYOND THAT

                    WILL BE DETERMINED BY THE AGENCY THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE

                    DISAGGREGATION.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  SO THE COUNTRIES -- THE COUNTRIES

                    TO -- TO BE DETERMINED ARE -- ARE NOT IN THIS LEGISLATION, RIGHT, NOT -- NOT

                    IN THIS BILL?  YOU'RE NOT DETERMINING THE COUNTRIES OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S -- IT'S -- IT GIVES 14

                    EXAMPLES, BUT IT SAYS INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  SO WHO WILL BE ADDING

                    THOSE COUNTRIES AS MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES?  BECAUSE I'M PRETTY SURE

                    AZERBAIJAN IS A MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT WOULD BE UP TO THE

                    AGENCY --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  WHICH ONE?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  -- THAT'S RELEASING THE --

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  WHICH AGENCY?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THE AGENCIES THAT RELEASE

                    DEMOGRAPHIC DATA.

                                 MR. NOVAKHOV:  OKAY.  ALL RIGHT.  THANK YOU.

                    THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANSWERS.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. REILLY.

                                         343



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. REILLY:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  WILL THE

                    SPONSOR YIELD FOR A QUICK QUESTION?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS,

                    WILL YOU YIELD?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS

                    YIELDS, SIR.

                                 MR. REILLY:  THANK YOU, MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS.  SO

                    IN THE BILL IN SECTION 4 DOWN BY LINE 29, IT SAYS THE REQUIRE --

                    REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY TO THE DEPARTMENT OF

                    LABOR, THE DIVISION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE SERVICES, THE OFFICE OF MENTAL

                    HEALTH OR THE OFFICE OF TEMPORARY AND DISABILITY ASSISTANCE UNTIL TWO

                    YEARS AFTER THIS SECTION SHALL HAVE BECOME LAW.  BUT ALL AGENCY -- ALL

                    OTHER STATE AGENCIES AND BOARDS AND TASK FORCES WOULD BE -- THEY

                    WOULD HAVE TO APPLY 180 DAYS AFTER IT BECOMES LAW.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S NOT --

                                 MR. REILLY:  I MEAN, AS SOON AS --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YEAH, IT'S NOT APPLYING,

                    IT'S -- IT'S WHEN THE DATA NEEDS TO BE AVAILABLE.  IT JUST GIVES THOSE --

                    THOSE AGENCIES MORE TIME.  AND A LOT OF THIS IS MIRRORED FROM THE BILL

                    THAT WAS PASSED IN 2021 THAT DISAGGREGATES DATA BY THE AAPI

                    COMMUNITY, THE ASIAN AMERICAN PACIFIC ISLANDER COMMUNITY.

                                 MR. REILLY:  SO WHY DO THOSE AGENCIES NEED EXTRA

                    TIME?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WE REALLY MIRRORED IT OFF

                                         344



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    THAT LANGUAGE, PERHAPS THE DATA MIGHT BE MORE COMPLEX OR MAY TAKE

                    MORE TIME, SO WE'RE GIVING THE AGENCY A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME TO DO THAT.

                                 MR. REILLY:  BUT IT WOULDN'T BE AS COMPLEX --

                    COMPLEX FOR OTHER AGENCIES?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  IT'S TAKING A LITTLE BIT OF

                    TIME FOR SOME OF THOSE AGENCIES TO RELEASE THE -- THE DATA THAT IS

                    REQUIRED UNDER THE BILL, UNDER THE AAPI BILL THAT WE PASSED IN 2021.

                                 MR. REILLY:  WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO PROVIDE, LIKE,

                    AN EXAMPLE OF WHY THAT MAY BE A DIFFICULT TASK FOR THEM, FOR THOSE

                    THREE AGENCIES?

                                 (PAUSE)

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YEAH, WE MIGHT HAVE TO

                    ASK THE AGENCY.  AGAIN, IT'S MIRRORED OFF THE SAME BILL AND VERY MUCH

                    INSPIRED BY THAT BILL, AND THOSE ARE THE AGENCIES IDENTIFIED TO GIVE A

                    LITTLE BIT EXTRA TIME.

                                 MR. REILLY:  ALL RIGHT.  SO THERE -- SO THERE'S REALLY

                    NO -- NO SPECIFIC REASON.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  NOT -- NOT -- NOT IN OUR

                    BILL, NO.  IT JUST GIVES THEM EXTRA TIME.

                                 MR. REILLY:  DID WE -- WAS THERE ANY CONSULTATION

                    WITH THOSE AGENCIES TO ASK WHY THEY MIGHT NEED MORE TIME, OR WERE

                    THEY EVEN CONSULTED AND GIVEN MORE TIME WITHOUT ASKING THEM?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  NO.

                                 MR. REILLY:  THERE WAS NO --

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  WE DID NOT, NO.

                                         345



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MR. REILLY:  -- NO CONSULTATION?  OKAY.  THANK

                    YOU.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. LAVINE.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, WILL YOU YIELD

                    FOR A COUPLE OF QUICK QUESTIONS?

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YES, SIR.

                                 MR. LAVINE:  SO I AM PRETTY SURE I KNOW WHAT THIS

                    BILL IS DESIGNED TO ACCOMPLISH, AND YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT IN A LOT

                    WAYS WE ARE BOTH FROM GLEN COVE, BUT THAT'S NOT ONE OF THE CATEGORIES.

                    BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION:  SO MY BROTHER HAD HIS DNA TESTED.

                    NOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE, FOR REASONS WE DON'T GO INTO, MY DNA

                    TESTED, BUT I'M ASSUMING IT'S PROBABLY THE SAME AS HIS.  SO THIS IS WHAT I

                    AM:  I AM PART IBERIAN PENINSULA, PART GREEK, PART ITALIAN, PART

                    NORTHERN RUSSIAN, PART FINNISH, PART EASTERN EUROPEAN JEW, AND ALSO

                    YAKUT, CENTRAL ASIAN TRIBE.  SO I HAVE THIS QUESTION FOR YOU:  WHAT AM

                    I?

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  YOU'RE 100 PERCENT

                    AMERICAN.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 MR. LAVINE:  THANK YOU.  NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MR. BROOK-KRASNY.

                                 MR. BROOK-KRASNY:  ALREADY?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  WAS IT YOU?

                                         346



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 MR. BROOK-KRASNY:  I'M NOT READY YET.

                                 (LAUGHTER)

                                 I'M KIDDING, I'M ALWAYS READY.

                                 MR. SPEAKER, TALKING ABOUT BEING 100 PERCENT OF

                    AMERICAN, AS YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER, I WASN'T BORN HERE.  I WAS BORN

                    IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION.  IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION IN THE

                    PASSPORT YOU HAD TO HAVE A NATIONALITY.  MY NATIONALITY WAS JEWISH

                    BECAUSE I'M 99.5 PERCENT JEWISH ACCORDING TO 23ANDME. .1 PERCENT

                    NATIVE AMERICAN, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT CAME FROM, WE'RE STILL

                    TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT.  BUT I'M NOT GONNA USE IT POLITICALLY IN ANY WAY.

                                 SO MR. SPEAKER, WHEN I CAME HERE, PEOPLE STARTED

                    TELLING ME THAT BEING JEWISH CAN'T BE A NATIONALITY, IT'S A RELIGION.

                    THEN, GOING JUST A FEW YEARS FURTHER, I WAS ABLE TO FORM AN

                    ORGANIZATION CALLED COUNCIL OF JEWISH IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY

                    ORGANIZATIONS FOR THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK CITY,

                    COJECO.  THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING JEWS, ALL -- ALL THIS TIME, DURING ALL

                    THIS TIME, THEY'VE BEEN FIGHTING WITH THE WORD "RUSSIAN," ESPECIALLY

                    NOW BECAUSE NOW THERE IS A WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.  SO OUR

                    IDENTIFICATION IS JUST EXTREMELY -- EXTREMELY COMPLICATED, IT'S JUST

                    COMPLICATED.  NOW, IF WE -- WE'RE TRYING, AND I -- AND I HAD AN

                    EXTENSIVE AND MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION WITH THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL SO

                    I THINK I -- I CAN UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF THIS BILL.  BUT WHAT'S

                    BOTHERING ME WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BEING 100 PERCENT AMERICAN --

                    WHERE'S 100 PERCENT AMERICAN?  HE'S GONE, OKAY.  IF WE'RE DIVIDING

                                         347



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OURSELVES INTO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, I'M WORRIED ABOUT ONE THING ONLY:

                    WHEN I FORMED WITH OTHER PEOPLE, WE FORMED COJECO.  THE PURPOSE

                    OF THAT ORGANIZATION WAS INTEGRATING RUSSIAN-JEWISH COMMUNITY INTO

                    THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, MAINSTREAM JEWISH COMMUNITY, AND THEN TO

                    MAINSTREAM AMERICAN COMMUNITY.  THAT WAS THE -- THE PURPOSE OF

                    CREATING AN ORGANIZATION FOR THAT COMMUNITY.

                                 SO IF WE'RE DIVIDING OURSELVES IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES,

                    I HOPE AT THE END OF THE PROCESS WE ALL WILL UNDERSTAND THAT NO MATTER

                    HOW WE'RE PROUD OF OUR OWN HERITAGE, WE SHOULD BE EVEN MORE BE

                    PROUD OF BEING AN AMERICAN.  IF THAT'S THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO THINK,

                    THEN IT'S FINE TO DIVIDE OURSELVES IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES BECAUSE WE STILL

                    WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO -- SOME OF THE PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY

                    THEMSELVES WITH ANY CATEGORIES.  BECAUSE NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ISRAEL

                    YOU HAVE 22 PERCENT RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE, CAME FROM EUROPE.  SO

                    WHO ARE THEY?

                                 I DON'T THINK I HAVE ANY MORE TIME, SO ALL I'M GOING TO

                    SAY IF WE'RE DIVIDING OURSELVES INTO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, LET'S JUST

                    UNDERSTAND THAT WE CAME HERE, WHETHER IT HAPPENED 500 YEARS AGO OR

                    30 YEARS AGO, WITH ONE PURPOSE ONLY:  BECOME A PROUD AMERICAN.

                    THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR.  AND AT THE END, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU THAT I

                    SPENT 11 MONTHS IN ITALY ON THE WAY TO AMERICA, WAITING FOR THE

                    AMERICAN CONSULATE DECISION TO LET ME IN.  NOT EVERYBODY GOT IN.  SO

                    WHEN YOU HAVING SLEEPLESS NIGHTS WAITING FOR THE AMERICAN CONSULATE

                    DECISION, WHETHER THEY GONNA LET YOU IN THE COUNTRY OF YOUR DREAM OR

                    NOT, THAT'S THE TIME WHEN YOU REALLY STARTED TO UNDERSTAND THAT BEING AN

                                         348



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AMERICAN IS A BIG PRIVILEGE, AND HAVING AN AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP IS A

                    HUGE PRIVILEGE.  LET'S JUST BE VERY PROUD OF THAT.  THAT'S ALL I WANTED TO

                    SAY.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

                                 (APPLAUSE)

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT ON THE 120TH

                    DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  A PARTY VOTE HAS

                    BEEN REQUESTED.

                                 MR. GOODELL.

                                 MR. GOODELL:  THANK YOU, SIR.  THE REPUBLICAN

                    CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION.  THOSE WHO

                    SUPPORT IT SHOULD VOTE YES ON THE FLOOR.  THANK YOU, SIR.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  THANK YOU, MR.

                    SPEAKER.  THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE IS GENERALLY GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF

                    THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION; HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE A FEW PEOPLE WHO

                    WOULD LIKE TO BE AN EXCEPTION, THEY SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO SO AT THEIR

                    SEATS.  THANK YOU.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THANK YOU, MA'AM.

                                 THE CLERK WILL RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.

                    DATA IS INFORMATION, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, DATA IS POWER.  AS A

                                         349



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REPRESENTATIVE OF ASTORIA IN QUEENS, THE HOME OF LITTLE EGYPT AND

                    MANY OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN COMMUNITIES,

                    AFFECTIONATELY KNOWN AS MENA COMMUNITIES, I AM SO PROUD TO HAVE

                    BROUGHT THIS BILL FORWARD AND MY SENATE COLLEAGUE, AND IN PARTNERSHIP

                    WITH MALIKAH, THEIR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR RANA ABDELHAMID, AND ALL THE

                    ORGANIZATIONS THAT MAKE UP THE COUNT MENA IN COALITION.

                                 ACCORDING THE FEDERAL WORKING GROUP AT THE OFFICE

                    OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, A SEPARATE MENA CATEGORY WAS

                    RECOMMENDED BECAUSE THEY FOUND, QUOTE, "MANY IN THE MENA

                    COMMUNITY DO NOT SHARE LIVED EXPERIENCES AS WHITE PEOPLE WITH

                    EUROPEAN ANCESTRY, DO NOT IDENTIFY AS WHITE, AND ARE NOT PERCEIVED AS

                    WHITE BY OTHERS", END QUOTE.  THEY DO NOT BENEFIT FROM WHITE

                    PRIVILEGE, AND WE DO NOT HAVE TO LOOK FURTHER THAN POST-9/11 NEW YORK

                    DURING WHICH MENA COMMUNITIES WERE SURVEILLED, OVER-POLICED AND

                    DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.  THE ERASURE OF MY NEIGHBORS DUE TO THIS LACK OF

                    DATA RENDERS THEM INVISIBLE, AND MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR US TO

                    SYSTEMATICALLY ADDRESS DISPARITIES IN EDUCATION, EMPLOYMENT, HEALTH

                    CARE, HOUSING, AND POLITICAL REPRESENTATION.  WE CANNOT RESOLVE WHAT

                    WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.  FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE THIS

                    DISAGGREGATED DATA, WE STILL DO NOT HAVE STATE LEVEL INFORMATION TO TELL

                    US THE STORY ABOUT THE IMPACT OF COVID-19 ON THE MENA COMMUNITY.

                    THE LACK OF DATA DISAGGREGATION ALSO MAKES MENA NEW YORKERS

                    INELIGIBLE FOR MWBE OPPORTUNITIES, AND THEY'RE NOT CONSIDERED A

                    COMMUNITY OF INTEREST FOR THE PURPOSES OF REDISTRICTING.

                                 MIDDLE EASTERN AND NORTH AFRICAN NEW YORKERS

                                         350



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    DESERVE TO BE COUNTED IN NEW YORK.  TODAY, WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS

                    CORRECTING THIS ERASURE.  MY CONSTITUENTS DESERVE TO BE SEEN AND

                    ACCOUNTED FOR ACROSS ALL OF OUR STATE SYSTEMS, AND I'M HERE TO MAKE

                    SURE THAT THEY ARE.  SO FROM LITTLE YEMEN IN THE BRONX TO LITTLE EGYPT

                    IN QUEENS, IT IS TIME TO COUNT MENA IN, AND I PROUDLY VOTE IN THE

                    AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  MS. GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS

                    IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, IF YOU WILL

                    PLEASE HAVE OUR HOUSE STAND AT EASE, AND I WOULD ASK THE MEMBERS OF

                    THE MAJORITY CONFERENCE TO IMMEDIATELY MEET THE SPEAKER IN HEARING

                    ROOM C.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY:  THE HOUSE WILL STAND

                    AT EASE.  MAJORITY CONFERENCE IN HEARING ROOM C.

                                 (WHEREUPON, AT 9:16 P.M., THE HOUSE STOOD AT EASE.)

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE HOUSE WILL

                    COME TO ORDER.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, COLLEAGUES

                    HAVE ON THEIR DESKS AN A-CALENDAR.  I'D LIKE TO MOVE TO ADVANCE THAT

                    A-CALENDAR.

                                         351



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON MRS.

                    PEOPLES-STOKES' MOTION THE A-CALENDAR IS ADVANCED.  ON THE

                    A-CALENDAR ON CONSENT, PAGE 3, RULES REPORT NO. 429, THE CLERK WILL

                    READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A00189-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 429 IS HIGH.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A01303-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 430, CLARK, SIMON, DAVILA, CURRAN, LUPARDO,

                    GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, ZACCARO, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, MCDONALD, HYNDMAN.

                    AN ACT TO AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING

                    REQUIRING PARENTS OR CARETAKERS TO EARN A MINIMUM WAGE TO BE ELIGIBLE

                    FOR CHILD CARE ASSISTANCE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MS. CLARK TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. CLARK:  HI.  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, I RISE TO

                    JUST BE REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THIS BILL GETTING THROUGH TODAY.  THE FOLKS --

                    WHEN THE MINIMUM EARNINGS BILL WAS -- A CALCULATION WAS PUT INTO

                    PLACE, PEOPLE DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE

                    (INAUDIBLE) ECONOMY AND THOSE WHO MAKE MONEY OUTSIDE OF PAYROLL.

                    SO GETTING THIS DONE MEANS THOSE WON'T BE PENALIZED FOR MAKING

                                         352



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    MONEY IN DIFFERENT WAYS, SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS AND OTHERS AND I

                    WOULD ACTUALLY REALLY ALSO LIKE TO THANK THE MINORITY AND MANY OF THE

                    LEADERS OVER THERE WHO HELPED LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT THIS DID AND WHAT IT

                    DIDN'T DO SO THAT WE COULD MAKE SURE THIS GROUP OF HARD-WORKING

                    PARENTS WILL GET THE CHILD CARE ASSISTANCE THEY NEED.  SO THANK YOU VERY

                    MUCH AND I VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MS. CLARK IN

                    THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                              (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A03556-E, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 431, ZEBROWSKI, LEVENBERG, REYES, EACHUS, LUNSFORD,

                    COLTON, STECK, SHIMSKY, SIMON, LEE, SIMONE, GUNTHER, PRETLOW,

                    CLARK, SEAWRIGHT, CUNNINGHAM, KELLES, O'DONNELL, MAMDANI,

                    BURDICK, THIELE, LUPARDO, DINOWITZ, GALLAGHER, MCDONALD,

                    MCMAHON, FAHY, EPSTEIN, L. ROSENTHAL, SHRESTHA, BICHOTTE HERMELYN,

                    DAVILA, MEEKS, LAVINE, HEVESI, OTIS, JACOBSON, SILLITTI.  AN ACT TO

                    AMEND THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING

                    THE SALE OF CERTAIN PRODUCTS THAT CONTAIN REGULATED PERFLUOROALKYL AND

                    POLYFLUOROALKYL SUBSTANCES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT JANUARY 1ST.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE BILL IS LAID

                                         353



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A03746, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 432, EICHENSTEIN, JACOBSON, RA.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC

                    SERVICE LAW, IN RELATION TO FALSE MATERIAL STATEMENTS RELATED TO A PUBLIC

                    UTILITY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. EICHENSTEIN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL

                    IS ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A04051-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 433, GALLAHAN, BYRNES, MANKTELOW, DESTEFANO, E. BROWN,

                    BENDETT, BRABENEC, LEMONDES, HAWLEY.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                    ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW, IN RELATION TO EXEMPTING CERTAIN

                    PARCELS OF LAND FROM LICENSING RESTRICTIONS PROHIBITING MANUFACTURERS,

                    WHOLESALERS AND RETAILERS OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES FROM SHARING AN

                    INTEREST IN A LICENSED PREMISES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. GALLAHAN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                                         354



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A04613-C, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 434, JEAN-PIERRE, PHEFFER AMATO.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                    GENERAL MUNICIPAL LAW, IN RELATION TO PROVIDING FOR AN ANNUAL

                    ADJUSTMENT FOR REIMBURSEMENTS FOR CERTAIN VETERANS FUNERALS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MS. JEAN-PIERRE, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT APRIL 1ST,

                    2025.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                              (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                         355



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A04917-D, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 435, ANDERSON, SOLAGES, ZINERMAN, GIBBS, CUNNINGHAM,

                    JACKSON, MEEKS, DE LOS SANTOS, SHIMSKY, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, SIMON,

                    RAGA, SIMONE, ARDILA, CHANDLER-WATERMAN, ZACCARO, ROZIC, HEVESI,

                    EPSTEIN, COOK, DAVILA, TAPIA, JEAN-PIERRE, TAYLOR, BURDICK, RAMOS, K.

                    BROWN, L. ROSENTHAL, GLICK, SAYEGH, SHRESTHA, OTIS, SILLITTI.  AN ACT TO

                    AMEND THE EDUCATION LAW, IN RELATION TO FUNDING FOR SCHOOL

                    ANTI-VIOLENCE EDUCATION PROGRAMS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. ANDERSON, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. ANDERSON TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. ANDERSON:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER, TO

                    EXPLAIN MY VOTE.  TODAY WE'RE PASSING A CRITICAL PIECE OF LEGISLATION

                    THAT EXPANDS THE ELIGIBILITY FOR COMMUNITY GROUPS TO APPLY TO ADDRESS

                    THE ISSUES OF GUN VIOLENCE IN OUR SCHOOLS.  AS WE'RE FACING THIS PUBLIC

                    HEALTH CRISIS IT'S SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THE TOOLS AT OUR

                    DISPOSAL TO SUPPORT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.  EVERY TIME I GO

                    TO A SHOOTING RESPONSE IN MY COMMUNITY WHEN THERE'S A SHOOTING, I

                    ALWAYS MENTION THIS VERY IMPORTANT THING, AND THAT IS CONFLICT IS A

                                         356



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    NATURAL PART OF HUMAN EXISTENCE.  AND SO HOW WE WORK THROUGH THAT

                    CONFLICT DEFINES US AS A PEOPLE, AS A COMMUNITY, AS A CITY, STATE AND

                    NATION.  AND SO THIS BILL IS CRITICAL TO ENSURING THAT WE CAN EXPAND THE

                    ELIGIBILITY.  I WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND PROUDLY VOTE IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MR. ANDERSON

                    IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A04924-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 436, ANGELINO.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE HIGHWAY LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO DESIGNATING A PORTION OF THE STATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM AS THE

                    "SP4 HERMAN EMIL ANDERS, JR. MEMORIAL BRIDGE"

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A05297-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 437, PAULIN, L. ROSENTHAL, RAGA, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, SIMONE,

                    MCMAHON, SEAWRIGHT, ARDILA, LUNSFORD, LAVINE, SIMON, SHIMSKY,

                                         357



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    LEVENBERG, FAHY, BURDICK, EPSTEIN, TAPIA, KELLES, REYES, HEVESI,

                    ROZIC, THIELE, CLARK, SILLITTI.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC HEALTH LAW,

                    IN RELATION TO PROHIBITED HOSPITAL INTERFERENCE WITH PATIENT CARE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE BILL IS LAID

                    ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A05334-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 438, PALMESANO.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

                    LAW, IN RELATION TO GRANTING PEACE OFFICER STATUS TO ANIMAL CONTROL

                    OFFICERS OF THE COUNTY OF SCHUYLER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MR. ARI BROWN TO EXPLAIN HIS VOTE.

                                 MR. A. BROWN:  YEAH, THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  I

                    JUST WANT TO LET ALL MY COLLEAGUES WHO VOTED NO ON THIS, IF YOU DON'T

                    VOTE YES PHIL IS GOING TO TALK AN EXTRA TWO HOURS ABOUT THE CONGO.

                                 (APPLAUSE)

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MR. BROWN IN

                    THE AFFIRMATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                         358



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A05631-E, RULES

                    REPORT 439, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A05918, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 440, WILLIAMS, TAYLOR, SAYEGH, COLTON, E. BROWN, DESTEFANO,

                    MANKTELOW, LEVENBERG, ANGELINO.  AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 548 OF

                    THE LAWS OF 2004 AMENDING THE EDUCATION LAW RELATING TO CERTAIN

                    TUITION WAIVERS FOR POLICE OFFICER STUDENTS OF THE CITY UNIVERSITY OF

                    NEW YORK, IN RELATION TO THE EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MS. WILLIAMS, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A06203-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 441, MCDONOUGH.  AN ACT AUTHORIZING THE FRIENDSHIP

                    ENGINE AND HOSE COMPANY TO FILE AN APPLICATION FOR EXEMPTION FROM

                    REAL PROPERTY TAXES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. MCDONOUGH, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL

                                         359



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    IS ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A06671, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 442, HAWLEY.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO

                    AUTHORIZING AN OCCUPANCY TAX IN THE VILLAGE OF MEDINA; AND PROVIDING

                    FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. HAWLEY, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  READ THE LAST SECTION.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS ALSO AT THE

                    DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                         360



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A07006-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 443, BRABENEC.  AN ACT IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING

                    CONGREGATION RSK TO RECEIVE RETROACTIVE REAL PROPERTY TAX EXEMPTION

                    STATUS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. BRABENEC, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                               (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A07058, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 444, SANTABARBARA.  AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 453 OF THE LAWS OF

                    1977, AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF SCHENECTADY IN THE COUNTY OF

                    SCHENECTADY, TO CREATE SPECIAL ASSESSMENT DISTRICTS WITHIN SUCH CITY, IN

                    RELATION TO INCREASING THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE SPECIAL DISTRICT OPERATIONS

                    AND DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. SANTABARBARA, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL

                    IS ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                         361



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A07071-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 445, J.M. GIGLIO.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF OLEAN TO IMPOSE A HOTEL AND MOTEL

                    TAX; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON THE

                    EXPIRATION THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  HOME RULE

                    MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A07196, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 446, DINOWITZ, BURDICK, SEAWRIGHT.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE GENERAL

                    BUSINESS LAW, IN RELATION TO PROHIBITING THE INCLUSION OF A CONFESSION

                                         362



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    OF JUDGMENT IN A CONTRACT OF AGREEMENT FOR A FINANCIAL PRODUCT OR

                    SERVICE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. DINOWITZ, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED AND THE BILL IS LAID ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A07331-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 447, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08075-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 448, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A04244-A [SIC], RULES

                    REPORT 449, TAGUE.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE NAVIGATION LAW, IN RELATION

                    TO REGULATIONS TO RESTRICT DOCKS, BOATHOUSES AND MOORINGS ON OTSEGO

                    LAKE IN THE TOWN OF SPRINGFIELD.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. TAGUE, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED AND HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08427-A, RULES

                                         363



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REPORT NO. 450, EPSTEIN, LEVENBERG, ZINERMAN, BORES, BURGOS.  AN

                    ACT TO AMEND THE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW, IN RELATION TO

                    EXPANDING THE AVAILABILITY OF TEMPORARY RETAIL PERMITS BY ELIMINATING

                    THE TWO YEAR RESTRICTION ON TEMPORARY RETAIL PERMITS FOR APPLICATIONS

                    SUBJECT TO THE 500 FOOT LAW.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 MS. GLICK TO EXPLAIN HER VOTE.

                                 MS. GLICK:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  BRIEFLY, THIS

                    CHANGES THE LOOKBACK FOR A TEMPORARY LIQUOR LICENSE FROM FIVE YEARS TO

                    TWO YEARS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A PREVIOUS BAR IN THAT

                    LOCATION.  IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD AND MY DISTRICT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR

                    BOOKSTORES OR MANY SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS OR SERVICES TO COMPETE WITH

                    BARS FOR RENTAL SPACE, AND SO THIS WILL ONLY ACCELERATE AND EXACERBATE

                    WHAT IS ALREADY THE LOSS OF A LOT OF LOCAL RETAIL BUSINESSES.  AND SO I

                    WITHDRAW MY REQUEST AND VOTE IN THE NEGATIVE ON BEHALF OF MY

                    CONSTITUENTS WHO ARE VERY OVERWHELMED BY BARS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MS. GLICK IN

                    THE NEGATIVE.

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                         364



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08612, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 451, SOLAGE, SIMON, WALLACE, OTIS, ARDILA, LUPARDO.  AN ACT TO

                    AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO ESTABLISHING AN

                    EMERGENCY HEATING ENERGY ASSISTANCE PROGRAM BENEFIT.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE BILL IS LAID

                    ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08820, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 452, FAHY, CUNNINGHAM, HEVESI, GLICK, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS,

                    O'DONNELL, STIRPE, LUCAS, SHIMSKY, LUNSFORD, ZACCARO, SEPTIMO,

                    GUNTHER, CRUZ, DAVILA, WOERNER, BURGOS, SANTABARBARA.  AN ACT TO

                    AMEND THE EXECUTIVE LAW, IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE STATE INSPECTOR

                    GENERAL TO RECEIVE AND INVESTIGATE COMPLAINTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT IN

                    CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES AND OTHER PLACES OPERATED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF

                    CORRECTIONS AND COMMUNITY SUPERVISION FOR THE CONFINEMENT OF

                    PERSONS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MS. FAHY, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  THE BILL IS LAID ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A08983, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 453, PAULIN, SAYEGH.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO INCLUDING DENTAL IMPLANTS, REPLACEMENT DENTAL PROSTHETIC

                    APPLIANCES, CROWNS AND ROOT CANALS AS MEDICALLY NECESSARY DENTAL CARE

                    AND SERVICES FOR COVERAGE UNDER THE MEDICAID PROGRAM.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE BILL IS LAID

                                         365



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09053, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 454, BRABENEC.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO THE

                    IMPOSITION OF A HOTEL AND MOTEL TAX IN THE VILLAGE OF GREENWOOD LAKE;

                    AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION

                    THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. BRABENEC, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09100, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 455, STECK, WOERNER.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE STATE FINANCE LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO REQUIRING A QUARTERLY REPORT ON THE OPIOID STEWARDSHIP FUND.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                         366



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09265-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 456, BRONSON, GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, SHRESTHA, REYES, L.

                    ROSENTHAL, LUCAS, JACOBSON, SAYEGH, SHIMSKY, ROZIC, BORES, RA,

                    GANDOLFO, LUNSFORD, BRABENEC.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE LABOR LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO REQUIRING CONTRACTORS AND SUBCONTRACTORS EMPLOYED BY THE

                    STATE TO SUBMIT THEIR PAYROLLS OR TRANSCRIPTS TO THE FISCAL OFFICER.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09285, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 457, MAHER.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO THE

                    IMPOSITION OF A HOTEL AND MOTEL TAX IN THE VILLAGE OF SOUTH BLOOMING

                    GROVE; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON EXPIRATION

                    THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                                         367



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    MR. MAHER, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09321-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 458, HEVESI, CLARK, STECK, ARDILA, BURDICK, REYES, L.

                    ROSENTHAL, EPSTEIN, TAPIA, SEAWRIGHT, KELLES, SIMONE, SIMON,

                    GONZÁLEZ-ROJAS, O'DONNELL, BURGOS, KIM, DICKENS, DE LOS SANTOS,

                    WALKER, PAULIN, DAVILA, DINOWITZ, BEEPHAN, STERN, BORES, BRONSON,

                    LUNSFORD, CRUZ, SHRESTHA, LEVENBERG, TAYLOR, GIBBS, LAVINE,

                    MCDONALD, RAGA, CARROLL, GALLAHAN, BICHOTTE HERMELYN, GUNTHER,

                    GALLAGHER, MAMDANI, PRETLOW, MEEKS, FORREST.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                    FAMILY COURT ACT AND SOCIAL SERVICES LAW, IN RELATION TO ENACTING THE

                    "SAFE LANDING FOR YOUTH LEAVING FOSTER CARE ACT" OR "SAFE LANDINGS

                    ACT"

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE BILL IS LAID

                    ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09430-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 459, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.

                                         368



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09499, RULES REPORT

                    460, PEOPLES-STOKES.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE LOCAL FINANCE LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO FACILITATING THE MARKETING OF ANY ISSUE OF SERIAL BONDS OR

                    NOTES OF THE CITY OF BUFFALO ISSUED ON OR BEFORE A CERTAIN DATE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE

                    BILL IS ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09707-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 461, MAGNARELLI, HUNTER.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN

                    RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF SYRACUSE TO IMPOSE A HOTEL AND

                    MOTEL TAX; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF SUCH PROVISIONS UPON

                    EXPIRATION THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. MAGNARELLI, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                         369



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09769-B, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 462, WAS PREVIOUSLY AMENDED AND IS HIGH.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A09887-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 463, DESTEFANO.  AN ACT IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE

                    TOWN OF BROOKHAVEN TO ALIENATE AND DISCONTINUE THE USE OF CERTAIN

                    PARKLANDS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. DESTEFANO, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10044, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 464, BARRETT.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO

                                         370



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF HUDSON TO INCREASE HOTEL AND MOTEL TAXES.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MS. BARRETT, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10081-A, RULES

                    REPORT NO. 465, FITZPATRICK.  AN ACT IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING THE

                    SAINT JAMES EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH OF SAINT JAMES LONG ISLAND

                    NY TO RECEIVE RETROACTIVE REAL PROPERTY TAX EXEMPTION STATUS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. FITZPATRICK, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                         371



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10097, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 466, BEEPHAN.  AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 208 OF THE LAWS OF 1983

                    RELATING TO ENABLING THE COUNTY OF DUTCHESS TO IMPOSE AND COLLECT

                    TAXES ON OCCUPANCY OF HOTEL, MOTEL, BOARDING HOUSE, CONFERENCE CENTER

                    OR TOURIST HOME IN DUTCHESS COUNTY, IN RELATION TO AUTHORIZING AN

                    ADDITIONAL ONE PERCENT TAX.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. BEEPHAN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.  HOME RULE MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10118, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 467, CLARK.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE TOWN LAW, IN RELATION TO

                    CLARIFYING PROCEDURES FOR FIRST ELECTIONS OF FIRE DISTRICTS TO ALLOW FOR

                    AT-LARGE VOTING.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MS. CLARK, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                                         372



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10238, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 468, COMMITTEE ON RULES, LEMONDES.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC

                    OFFICERS LAW, IN RELATION TO QUALIFICATIONS FOR HOLDING THE OFFICE OF

                    CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF THE CITY OF AUBURN.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. LEMONDES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10252-A, RULES

                                         373



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REPORT NO. 469, COMMITTEE ON RULES, BORES.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                    ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW, IN RELATION TO LICENSING RESTRICTIONS

                    FOR MANUFACTURERS AND WHOLESALERS OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ON LICENSEES

                    AND SELL AT RETAIL; AND PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF CERTAIN PROVISIONS

                    UPON EXPIRATION THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. BORES, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10284, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 470, COMMITTEE ON RULES, GLICK.  AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 550 OF

                    THE LAWS OF 2013 AMENDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION LAW

                    RELATING TO ESTABLISHING THE MERCURY THERMOSTAT COLLECTION ACT, IN

                    RELATION TO THE EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  READ THE LAST

                    SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                                         374



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10318, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 471, COMMITTEE ON RULES, EACHUS.  AN ACT AUTHORIZING THE TOWN

                    OF NEW WINDSOR TO ALIENATE CERTAIN PARKLANDS FOR USE AS A SEWER

                    TREATMENT PLANT AND TO DEDICATE OTHER LANDS AS REPLACEMENT PARKLANDS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  HOME RULE

                    MESSAGE IS AT THE DESK.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 ARE THERE ANY OTHER VOTES?  ANNOUNCE THE RESULTS.

                                 (THE CLERK ANNOUNCED THE RESULTS.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10411, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 472, COMMITTEE ON RULES, BICHOTTE HERMELYN.  AN ACT TO AMEND

                    THE REAL PROPERTY TAX LAW, IN RELATION TO THE APPROPRIATE TAX YEAR FOR

                    ASSESSING INCOME REQUIREMENTS FOR CERTAIN REAL PROPERTY TAX

                    EXEMPTIONS IN A CITY WITH A POPULATION OF ONE MILLION OR MORE.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                                         375



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    MS. BICHOTTE HERMELYN, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE

                    SENATE BILL IS ADVANCED AND THE BILL IS LAID ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10461, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 473, COMMITTEES ON RULES, SIMONE.  AN ACT TO AMEND THE

                    INSURANCE LAW, IN RELATION TO CO-PAYMENTS OF PREEXPOSURE OR

                    POST-EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE BILL IS LAID

                    ASIDE.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. A10463, RULES REPORT

                    NO. 474, COMMITTEE ON RULES, HEVESI.  AN ACT TO AMEND CHAPTER 329

                    OF THE LAWS OF 2020 AMENDING THE SOCIAL SERVICES LAW RELATING TO

                    REPORTING DATA ON CHILD WELFARE PREVENTIVE SERVICES, IN RELATION TO THE

                    EFFECTIVENESS THEREOF.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION BY

                    MR. HEVESI, THE SENATE BILL IS BEFORE THE HOUSE.  THE SENATE BILL IS

                    ADVANCED.

                                 READ THE LAST SECTION.

                                 THE CLERK:  THIS ACT SHALL TAKE EFFECT IMMEDIATELY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  THE CLERK WILL

                    RECORD THE VOTE.

                                 (THE CLERK RECORDED THE VOTE.)

                                 THE BILL IS PASSED.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, IF WE COULD

                    NOW GO BACK TO OUR MAIN CALENDAR TO PAGE 3 FOR OUR RESOLUTIONS.

                                         376



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MAIN CALENDAR,

                    RESOLUTIONS, PAGE 3, THE CLERK WILL READ.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2405, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. RA.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 5, 2024, AS GLOBAL RUNNING DAY IN THE

                    STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MR. RA ON THE

                    RESOLUTION.

                                 MR. RA:  THANK YOU, MR. SPEAKER.  JUST QUICKLY, THIS

                    IS A TRADITION WE'VE CARRIED ON FROM OUR FORMER MEMBER MR. CUSICK, SO

                    THANK YOU TO THE HANDFUL OF MEMBERS THAT WERE THERE AT 7:30 THIS

                    MORNING TO GO FOR A NICE RUN.  I'M NOT RUNNING AT 7:30 TOMORROW

                    MORNING AFTER THIS LATE NIGHT IN THE CHAMBER, BUT OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A

                    HOBBY AND A GREAT EXERCISE ROUTINE THAT MANY NEW YORKERS TAKE ON

                    EVERY YEAR, SO THANK YOU TO MY COLLEAGUES FOR SUPPORTING IT.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2406, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. THIELE.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 8, 2024 AS DRAGONFLY DAY IN THE STATE

                    OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                                         377



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2407, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. DURSO.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 17, 2024, AS SANITATION WORKERS DAY

                    IN THE STATE -- STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2408, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MS. WOERNER.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 2024, AS ALZHEIMER'S AND BRAIN

                    AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2409, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MS. WALSH.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE 2024, AS REUN -- REUNIFICATION MONTH

                    IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  MS. WALSH ON

                    THE RESOLUTION.

                                         378



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                                 MS. WALSH:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  THANKS TO MY

                    COLLEAGUES, I KNOW IT'S LATE OR EARLY.  REUNIFICATION MONTH IS

                    SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN CELEBRATED IN THE MONTH OF JUNE SINCE 2010,

                    AND BASICALLY WHAT IT IS IS IT'S AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE REALLY, REALLY

                    HARD WORK THAT FAMILIES DO TO GET REUNIFIED WITH THEIR KIDS THAT HAVE

                    BEEN PLACED IN FOSTER CARE.  AND, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT THOSE

                    SUCCESS STORIES EVERY DAY, AND WE PASS A LOT OF BILLS HERE IN THE

                    CHAMBER HAVING TO DO WITH FOSTER CARE.  I REALLY WANTED TO CARRY THIS

                    RESOLUTION TO JUST POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE SUCCESS STORIES AND THAT THEY

                    REALLY NEED TO BE CELEBRATED.  YOU KNOW, THE GOAL OF FOSTER CARE IS

                    REUNIFICATION AND THERE IS A WHOLE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE THAT ARE

                    INVOLVED FROM CASE WORKERS TO COUNSELORS TO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST A

                    WHOLE HOST OF PEOPLE THAT WORK WITH THE PARENTS TO REALLY TRY TO MEET

                    THOSE REALLY DIFFICULT GOALS AND TRY TO OVERCOME WHATEVER CHALLENGES

                    THAT THEY HAD THAT KEPT THEM FROM THEIR CHILDREN AND REQUIRED THE FOSTER

                    CARE PLACEMENT TO BEGIN WITH.

                                 SO I -- I THINK IT'S A -- I'M REALLY PROUD TO BE ABLE TO

                    CARRY IT AND I WOULD APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT OF ALL OF YOU IN -- IN ALSO

                    THINKING ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS TO BE SEPARATED FROM YOUR KIDS AND

                    THEN TO DO THAT WORK AND BE REUNIFIED.  SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE

                    TIME, THANKS EVERYBODY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2410, RULES AT THE

                                         379



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REQUEST OF MS. WILLIAMS.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO DECLARE JUNE 2024, AS NORTH AMERICAN HURRICANE

                    AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, AT THE START OF ATLANTIC

                    HURRICANE SEASON.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2411, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MS. REYES.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM JUNE -- JULY 25, 2024, AS AFRO-LATINA,

                    AFRO-CARIBBEAN, AND AFRICAN DIASPORA WOMEN'S DAY IN THE STATE OF

                    NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2412, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. ALVAREZ.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM AUGUST 16, 2024, AS HISPANIC MEDIA DAY IN

                    THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

                                         380



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2413, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MS. SOLAGES.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM AUGUST 2024, AS BREASTFEEDING AWARENESS

                    MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2414, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. SMITH.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM OCTOBER 21-25, 2024, AS STRANGER SAFETY

                    AND EDUCATION AWARENESS WEEK IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2415, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. DESTEFANO.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM OCTOBER 2024, AS PET RESCUE AWARENESS

                    MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2416, RULES AT THE

                                         381



                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    REQUEST OF MS. ROSENTHAL.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM NOVEMBER 9, 2024, AS LUNG CANCER

                    SCREENING AWARENESS DAY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2417, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MR. DESTEFANO.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM NOVEMBER 17-23, 2024, AS HUNGER AND

                    HOMELESSNESS AWARENESS WEEK IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.


                                 THE CLERK:  ASSEMBLY NO. 2418, RULES AT THE

                    REQUEST OF MS. WALLACE.

                                 LEGISLATIVE RESOLUTION MEMORIALIZING GOVERNOR

                    KATHY HOCHUL TO PROCLAIM NOVEMBER 2024, AS HOSPICE AND PALLIATIVE

                    CARE AWARENESS MONTH IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON THE -- ON THE

                    RESOLUTION, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE

                    RESOLUTION IS ADOPTED.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  MR. SPEAKER, DO YOU

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                     NYS ASSEMBLY                                                              JUNE 5, 2024

                    HAVE ANY FURTHER HOUSEKEEPING OR RESOLUTIONS?

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  WE DON'T HAVE

                    ANY HOUSEKEEPING, BUT WE HAVE A NUMBER -- A NUMBER OF FINE

                    RESOLUTIONS WE'LL TAKE UP WITH ONE VOTE.

                                 ON THE RESOLUTIONS, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SIGNIFY BY SAYING

                    AYE; OPPOSED, NO.  THE RESOLUTIONS ARE ADOPTED.

                                 (WHEREUPON, ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION NOS. 2419-2427

                    WERE UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED.)

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES.

                                 MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES:  I NOW MOVE THAT THE

                    ASSEMBLY STAND ADJOURNED AND THAT WE RECONVENE AT 9:30 A.M.,

                    THURSDAY, JUNE THE 6TH, TOMORROW BEING A SESSION DAY.

                                 ACTING SPEAKER ZEBROWSKI:  ON A MOTION OF

                    MRS. PEOPLES-STOKES, THE HOUSE STANDS ADJOURNED.

                                 (WHEREUPON, AT 12:55 A.M., THE HOUSE STOOD

                    ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, JUNE 6TH AT 9:30 A.M., THAT BEING A SESSION

                    DAY.)

















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